Collaboration using Dropbox - looking for investigators
Alex Hough
For a while now it seems like there are a lot of people raving about
Dropbox and TiddlyWiki.
I'd like to investigate collaboration in a small group.
Anyone interested / got any ideas?
Alex
Alex Hough
http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/#[[IncludePlugin%20Documentation]]
Each user includes the other and share a dropbox.
Alex
Craig in Calgary
I am interested in using Dropbox to host my private TWs and being able
to split out the common tiddlers/plugins for reuse across all TWs
would be very good.
I'm game to help test sharing public tiddlers for the sake of helping
the community. An idea I find intriguing is the possibility of the TW
community using Dropbox as a public repository for common tiddlers. If
our TWs all pull their plugins from the same pool then the
possibilities get real interesting.
My programming skills are likely too weak to significantly impact the
development of this TiddlyDropBoxWiki idea but I have a lot of
experience with UI design, User Experience, Quality Control, and Beta
Testing. At that stage I would be willing to dive in and lend a hand.
As I sit here thinking about the possibilities I realize there are
many technical issues that will need to be solved to insure a positive
experience for end users. To get the ball rolling, so to speak, the
first tricky bit of magic I would like to see is a TW bootstrap
loader, i.e. the TWCore loads quickly and gives the end user a UI
while the lion's share of code and content loads asynchronously (or
possibly JIT). I'm envisioning something beyond just a "loading,
please wait..." splash screen.
The second feature that comes to mind would be the ability to search
across all public content whether loaded or not. I would accept a
performance trade-off in exchange for knowing the search is deep.
I'll stop daydreaming now. I think you are on to something, Alex, and
I hope we can get some buy in from TW Rock Stars (you know who you
are!) to move this idea forward.
Craig
Jon
> Dropbox and TiddlyWiki.
> I'd like to investigate collaboration in a small group.
students as a one-way communication (they don't change the TW). What's
nice about this is that there tend to be lots of files we need to
share, and using Dropbox means all I have to do is put them in a
folder system with links in the TW and voila! everyone has the files
on their own computers.
We have also used a Dropbox/TW combination quite successfully to
manage documents and information for a faculty search. The TW had a
form for basic information about each candidate and links to
electronic versions of their documents; all is in a Dropbox folder and
thus again everyone has all the files. Here, anyone in the group could
add comments, notes, rankings, etc. This works pretty well but bumps
up against the limitation that ordinary TWs really aren't designed for
multi-user editing. I did the big edits at night, and most times other
users needed to edit only briefly, so they opened, edited, saved and
Dropbox caught up quickly. But sometimes someone would leave their
copy in edit mode for a while, during which time someone else edited
and saved, or two users would just happen to be editing at the same
time. The good thing is that Dropbox tracks this and saves both
versions (one as "XXX's conflicted copy"). The bad thing is that
someone (me) then has to compare the files and reconcile them.
Hope that helps,
Jon
PMario
What would be the advantage of dropbox over TiddlySpace [1], which is
designed for TW collaboration?
-m
[1] http://tiddlyspace.com
Alex Hough
For me i think the advantage is that there is less complexity.
* closer to using traditional TW - less learning to do. No including
spaces, less plugins
* faster - i know the lag is small on TiddlySpace, but letting dropbox
sync in the background is quicker
* safer - i've lost data in TiddlySpace - don't know why, but with
autosave and backups with dropbox I feel safe.
!! Observations on TiddlySpace
I followed your links to the April1111 tiddlyspace and the
manefesto2. And tried to respond. I followed the spaces and replied to
the tiddlers - but i don't think i got far. There is not a lot of
activity there, indicating -- to me - that despite huge enthusiasm,
the system is still not working for its intended purpose - as a
vehicle for social discourse. I found it hard to read.
!! A really fast note-taking system
I liked Blane's comments - something like " i want a really fast
note-taking system" : this is what I want too.
But there seem a lack of discourse like activity from these spaces
purposed for TS metadiscourse [1]. Part of it - for me - is that there
is too much information and perspectives for me to process. After all,
TW is not my job (open to offers though) and I can't afford to spend
the time getting involved with the TS team more than I do. Many issues
are complex, i'd have to learn a lot before i could understand the
discourse and make a contirbution. But I do use TW for notemaking in
meetings, and exploring and developing ideas.
!! Lots of Tweets for Dropbox and TW
I use Tweatdeck to read twitter feeds. I have a search for TiddlyWiki,
and there are many messages talking about dropbox and TW. I remembered
Udo include plugin from way back, now we have dropbox i think it comes
into its own. Using a dropbox also helps if you want to share images
and other files - pdfs (I know they are bad ) but lots of accademic
papers are in this format. You can even host video in dropbox and use
Erics media player plugin. Its good when the vids you want to share
need to be private and you don't want to use vimeo or YouTube. TW and
dropbox is getting more attention that TS at the moment, so I thought
it would be good to investigate.
RSS reader works when the TW is local too. JayFresh wrote a nice
plugin that Bauwe discovered - it makes tiddlers from RSS feeds - very
nice.
In terms of privacy and security in the context of teamwork, i like
the 'feel' of sharing a dropbox. You actually have the other person's
TW in a local file, so you could change it. I think putting the
emphasis on the human side of collaboration - establishing conventions
though experimentation in notemaking and sharing - is good. Perhaps
the interest in technology and UI of TiddlySpace is secondary to
working with notes - sketch ideas, half formed, irregular, on the edge
of having any meaning, yet being a spark for a memory. I
Following a Skype with Bauwe, I discovered that his first trade is as
a wood worker specialising in boat construction. He's refered to TW as
'good material' , referring to the TW as something with a form that
can be constantly manipulated and formed. I liked this, and after he
asked me if i'd ever made something from wood i answered 'no'. But
later that day, i had do cut a tree down in my garden. As I cut it to
so that it could fit into the recycling bin, i noticed there were
different types of branch and twig. I was soon sorting them, and fresh
from thinking about TW with Bauwe, thought about TW while making a
kind of house / sculpture for my daughter.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, i too like the view that "TW is
good material" - the playing with it while making non-linear notes
becomes part of the creative process, but the ideas must have value.
!! Small Tools and Backdoors
I think TW is a very good small tool in a collection small tools -
(gmail chat worked well with dropbox tw) last night, the google
groups, e-mail, twitter, rss. TiddlySpace provides options for sharing
text and collaboration, for me it feels too big. Word, E-mail
attachments, spreadsheets are a part of my life as well as TW. Other
people use them, I can't get people to try TW. I have got people to
share dropbox though. They might end up using TW via a "Dropbox
backdoor.
ALex
[1] Metadiscourse note: I think that it needs to be acknowledged that
there is a variety of communication channels. I think metadiscourse is
messy and is distributed in many contexts and activities - it has to
be for it to be successful otherwise it just reflects the media from
which it is crafted. If the metadiscourse's context is about the tool
for the discourse, then there are too many openings for errors - only
preventable by using increasingly dense language and hypertext.
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Alex Hough
* don't need a signal to save, save local, dropbox syncs
Alex
Jeremy Ruston
DropBox/TiddlyWiki experience. I think Alex nails it: DropBox and
TiddlyWiki lets you merge the webby world of web pages with the crufty
world of file directories.
The interesting pattern for me would therefore be to explode the
TiddlyWiki file into separate files for each tiddler, stored alongside
the associated file attachments. The individual files would lend
themselves to DropBox's own facilities for managing revisions and
sharing with other users. The TiddlyWiki file would maintain pointers
to the tiddler files (perhaps allowing the inclusion of individual
tiddler files, or entire directories of files). Lazy loading could be
used to defer loading individual tiddler files until required.
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jer...@osmosoft.com
http://www.tiddlywiki.com
Alex Hough
> The interesting pattern for me would therefore be to explode the
> TiddlyWiki file into separate files for each tiddler, stored alongside
> the associated file attachments.
Could you explain a bit more.Do you mean separate files for each tiddler?
Maybe you could make a demo? I'm keen to test.
best wishes
Alex
Alex Hough
include plugin [1].
From my perspective it was an interesting experiment.
There were two TWs at the end of play; a personal TW each. The way the
include works is good. If there is a conflict, then ones own version
of the tiddler is the one that takes preference.
Tiddlers included from another TW are read only. Its easy enough to
cut and paste content into a tiddler of you own, and tag it with the
title of the included one - tagglytagging style.
I think its an interesting situation when you have the possibility of
editing someone elses TW. It is after all on your machine. The initial
feeling was an added feeling of intimacy and trust - essential for
collaboration anyway.
Overall, i am looking forward to further investigations.
Alex
[1] http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/#[[IncludePlugin%20Documentation]]
Jeremy Ruston
>> TiddlyWiki file into separate files for each tiddler, stored alongside
>> the associated file attachments.
>
> Could you explain a bit more.Do you mean separate files for each tiddler?
Yes, so there would be the following differences from "classic" TiddlyWiki:
- On save changes, the text of each modified tiddler would be saved to
a separate file in the same directory as the HTML file. The metadata
like modified date would still be stored in the TiddlyWiki file as
usual
- When the file loads, it would load the tiddler store from the
metadata, meaning that all the tiddlers would exist with the correct
metadata, but that the content of the tiddler wouldn't be available
until it was loaded from the external file. The tricky bit would be to
trigger the loading of the text of a tiddler just as it is first
displayed or accessed. This is slightly easier than the server-based
lazy loading situation because the local file APIs are synchronous.
The point is that once the tiddlers exist as individual files, they
can take advantage of DropBox's revision history storage.
> Maybe you could make a demo? I'm keen to test.
It was one of the modes of operation I was exploring with TiddlyWiki
5. I haven't done any work on it since then. I believe that Eric has a
set of plugins that achieves a similar effect, however.
Cheers
Jeremy
PMario
Very interesting thoughts. I can see your points.
I think, this post should be copied to your space and be tagged
@april1111.
TiddlySpace devs can see it on the april space. So it can be a
reminder :)
-m
PMario
I joined the party (and Dropbox).
What I did:
- created a copy from master TW
- renamed to PMario TW.
- edited master TW to include PMario TW
- created a tiddler.
- My tiddler can be seen in master TW. -> OK
- I can see yours and Bauwe's tiddlers in my TW since I copied the
master -> OK
I am not quite clear about the intended workflow.
- Do I need to view the master to read the content?
- And edit my "private" version to post something?
-m
PS: Dropbox thinks I am using 68 MByte. Is shared folder size,
substracted from every account? If so, backpus should be kept local
only. (I don't want to share mine anyway)
Bauwe Bijl
> substracted from every account? If so, backpus should be kept local
> only. (I don't want to share mine anyway)
Since our last chat I changed some things on my side of the story.
Let me elaborate on keeping backups local...for all the others
interested...
In the settings on your pc where dropbox is installed you can disable
the sync of certain folders (the backup-folder in this case).
However...your tiddlywiki will still be there.
I also removed my tw from the shared folder and started experimenting
with purestore.
I installed exportplugin from tiddlytools in my tiddlywiki.
(my workboard tw where I write on is in another folder not visible for
others)...
To get the master tw in the shared folder fetch my tiddlers I use
exportplugin to write the export.html (purestore) to the
sharedfolder.....where the master tw includes my exported tiddlers.
The includeplugin in the "master" (the fetching tiddlers tiddlywiki)
lists my exported tiddlers according to the tags etc.
Compared to my tw 800kb...my export html is around 4kb! (just some
small tiddlers inside)
Ideally in this case there should be 1 tiddlwyiki in the shared
dropboxfolder. Everybody uses it's own tiddlywiki in separate
folders...
Then export html's are written to the shared folder...
Shared folder:
master html (which includes bauweexport html , alexexport html ,
marioexport html etc. etc. with the include plugin)
bauweexport html (pure store)
alexexport html (pure store)
marioexport html (pure store)
In this case the tiddlers are still not separate files as Jeremy
suggested but it largely reduces file size.
Bauwe
Craig in Calgary
> the sync of certain folders (the backup-folder in this case).
copies but now that I don't sync those folders my DropboxTW folder is
very manageable.
> I also removed my tw from the shared folder and started experimenting
> with purestore.
individual files for each tiddler.
> (my workboard tw where I write on is in another folder not visible for
> others)...
or more public facing TWs (in the main folder) and then manage their
own content in private subfolders. Where I am getting confused is on
how you would share a tiddler from your private TW? If you want the
content to be publicly accessible would you have to move it into your
public TW (because all tiddler files must be in the same directory as
the TW they belong to)?
In looking around in AlexHoughDropboxTW.html, master.html, and
PMarioDropboxTW.html I got confused about where I should be doing any
editing. I added craig_tagsearch.html (thank you, Tobias Beer, for
your excellent http://tagsearch.tiddlyspot.com TW mod) so I would have
somewhere to throw content that shouldn't step on anyone else's TWs.
I perceive the vision of DropboxTW to be an environment focused on
collaboration. That's fine. My personal interest (currently) is to
leverage Dropbox and TiddlyWiki such that I only keep a single copy of
any plugin there but have all my various TWs loading it as needed.
This environment could certainly accelerate plugin development if two
(2) or more TW rock stars want to collaborate on plugin development.
Between Jeremy's description of a TW hosting tiddlers as files and
loading JIT and Bauwe's purestore experiments, we might be close to
seeing all the TWs currently in DropboxTW reduced in size to their
unique tiddlers. For the sake of organizational structure I hope it
becomes possible to manage these tiddler files into subdirectories:
plugins, pluginInfo/documentation, owner of personal tiddlers, etc.
This would reduce the clutter of the main directory and might help
address the segregation of public and private tiddlers.
BTW, I have no proprietary content in craig_tagsearch.html. Anyone is
welcome to edit as they please.
It dawns on me that in many Google Groups threads here someone will
raise a question or have an issue that is better demonstrated than
described. They are encouraged to create a minimal test case TW.
Couldn't we formalize a DropboxTW "repository" where those MTCs could
be posted consistently?
Craig
Saverio
Evernote or SpringPad application. It fixes the problems of both
classic TiddlyWiki (lack of ubiquitous availability across platforms)
and the shortcomings of Evernote (no linking between notes, no
extensibility, no configurability). If any more work proceeds on this
front, I would be very interested in trying it out.
> >>>> Hi Alex,
>
> >>>> What would be the advantage of dropbox over TiddlySpace [1], which is
> >>>> designed for TW collaboration?
>
> >>>> -m
> >>>> [1]http://tiddlyspace.com
>
> >>>> --
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> >> --
> >> Jeremy Ruston
> >> mailto:jer...@osmosoft.com
> >>http://www.tiddlywiki.com
>
> >> --
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Zargron
lot of the concepts that this group are discussing. What a
tremendously flexible, scalable, secure, collaborative resource and
content management system you have the potential to create. Sorry i
don't have anything to contribute at this stage. Please, keep up the
fantastic work.
Yakov
"hoster": "sometimes" (as I understand, for some IPs) it blocks all
the .htm and .html files for public view. I've run into this when I
was testing it as a host engine. Few words about this can be found at
[1]. As for workarounds, a "tiddlywiki.html" can be renamed for
instance as "tiddlywiki", but in this case not all the browsers can
open it without downloading. As I remember, Opera, Safari and IE can
while FireFox and Chrome can not.
This is why you probably should also test other such services. I tried
Ubuntu One and it goes ok, but I haven't installed it's client (it's
beta for Windows) and used just web-interface. There are many others
[2] (not all of them are what you need, click "Public Internet file
hosting" header to sort).
[1] http://forums.dropbox.com/topic.php?id=34156&replies=24
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_online_backup_services
Tobias Beer
Quick question: How would you guys think about organizing tiddlers in
such a shared DropBoxWiki environment? I mean, it seems difficult to
structure content via tagging unless the structure were already known
to begin with, which it rarely is, I guess.
Did you already think of ways by which (individually) emerging
structures and tagging can be reconciled and easily recognized or
adhered to with such shared ownership?
I mean, I would not be keen on having an environment without any
content orchestration or simple workflow rules, leaving all
structuring and tagging up to each individual contributor with respect
to their individual content.
In other words, right now I would think the TiddlySpace approach seems
to improve the task of organizing shared content quite a lot and I
would consider this to be quite fundamental.
In this respect I also do like a [TypeWithMe or GoogleDocs] +
TiddlyWiki combination quite a lot, as shared content creation is a
lot easier, the outcome of the editing process eventually being put
into tiddlers.
Cheers, Tobias.
Bauwe Bijl
Thanks !
Will take a look at that.
Bauwe
Bauwe Bijl
> Quick question: How would you guys think about organizing tiddlers in
> such a shared DropBoxWiki environment? I mean, it seems difficult to
> structure content via tagging unless the structure were already known
> to begin with, which it rarely is, I guess.
a new post.
But for now we fetch tiddlers in lists by name-tag...some tags as news
are listed in the default tiddlers...all the others are just in the
timeline
> Did you already think of ways by which (individually) emerging
> structures and tagging can be reconciled and easily recognized or
> adhered to with such shared ownership?
> I mean, I would not be keen on having an environment without any
> content orchestration or simple workflow rules, leaving all
> structuring and tagging up to each individual contributor with respect
> to their individual content.
> In other words, right now I would think the TiddlySpace approach seems
> to improve the task of organizing shared content quite a lot and I
> would consider this to be quite fundamental.
(I already told that to Alex...just takes some time B-)
Bauwe
Bauwe Bijl
Sharing a dropbox folder has the "limitation" that it cannot be a
"public" folder, so others could watch with us...otherwise we could
have experiments in the "open".
At the moment we are sharing the tiddlywiki-folder with 5 people and
we have to discover some balance...dropbox and how tw fits best.
To make things more visible I created some test/showcase in my public
dropbox.
First the concept:
we all have one shared dropbox-folder
inside are 6 tiddlywiki files
1 tiddlywiki has the IncludePlugin installed (we don not work on this
one...it fetches the tiddlers from the other personal
tiddlywiki's...we read tiddlers from others in master but write in our
own tw's)
I made an example where the tiddlers from a "purestore" html file are
loaded in the master tw. (this could also be a "normal" tiddlywiki)
The master tw is configured to show single page's combined with the
totallytiddlerstheme (kioskmode)....that's only for the demo...shared
we don't have a theme.
There is a menu that lists tiddlers with the tag "note".
The tiddlers are loaded via the includeplugin from the export html in
the same folder.
Here the "kiosk" (showing tiddlers tagged "note"):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9670094/DropBoxTWDemo/tiddlerdrops.html
While the tiddlers are stored here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9670094/DropBoxTWDemo/export.html
...Download the kiosk and find out that the tiddlers are not
inside...add the export html and it works again...
This is a method that seems to work on a shared folder ... shared we
use some extra tags to create more diverse results in the master-tw.
Bauwe
Tobias Beer
Where - unfortunately - DropBoxWiki seems to fall short - as
TiddlyWiki does itself - is in being able to collaboratively edit
shared content ...beyond a mere aggregation of otherwise independent
content bits. In some cases, of course, this might already be more
than welcome. However, as pointed out by others already DropBox gives
a lot of flexibility in terms of external files, which under certain
conditions might be more important than the added value of shared
editing.
Perhaps it might make sense to focus on and investigate scenarios and
workflows where a master maintainer could pull content from
contributors and thus (re-)structure all those content bits that ask
for migration, besides a members individual content bits.
A simple way to indicate that a tiddler is more of an individual,
personal kind might be to prefix those with a users initials. However,
the remaining question seems to be "if" or simply "how" there could be
"shared tiddlers" (aka "collaboratively edited content"), rather than
"shared wikis" in a DropBox environment.
Cheers, Tobias.
Alex Hough
Quick question: How would you guys think about organizing tiddlers in
such a shared DropBoxWiki environment? I mean, it seems difficult to
structure content via tagging unless the structure were already known
to begin with, which it rarely is, I guess.
>>>
It's a good question. Other ways could be by
* creator (needs eric [[[Core Tweeks 471]])
* new tiddler macro automatically creating a tag with of username or a
prefix to the title. eg Alex : Dropbox and Tiddly Wiki, Tobias :
Dropbox and TiddlyWiki.
I am thinking about "convention over configuration" i read about in
Rails. And the idea that different groups might form different
conventions. In the team work / creativity literature, there is a
thread which talks about the team themselves being able to have the
ability to change its process. So in some respects, discussing this
kind of thing at the "storming" and "norming" stages ([[Tuckman
Model]]) could be beneficial. A team's constant reflection on their
process embedded in their identity is identified as a factor in good
team performance (Creative Leaders Handbook [2])
In terms of cybernetics and the [[Viable System Model]], all this
stuff is classed as [[System 2]] - its about co-ordination. The key
concern is balancing the complexity of the S2 with the other systems
([[I'll write more about this later)]]. This balance has something to
do with the individual and their preference and competence with IT
systems. So, if some member of a team is going to use Word for
absolutely everything and will --under no circumstances wish to
experiment -- the S2 should be designed to accommodate them but
without reducing the members of the team who want to use other
technology (Like TW, binary images tiddlers, dropbox). Of course a
balance would have to be stuck, but Dropbox's ability to host crufty
[3] stuff (thanks for the new word Jeremy, i thought you meant
something like a dogshow.. small fish, dogshows... what next? pigeon
lofts, allotments?)
ALex
[1] http://www.tiddlytools.com/#CoreTweaks
[2] Amazon.com Link. Available at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0566080516
[Accessed January 8, 2009].
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft
Alex Hough
> Where - unfortunately - DropBoxWiki seems to fall short - as
> TiddlyWiki does itself - is in being able to collaboratively edit
> shared content ...beyond a mere aggregation of otherwise independent
> content bits.
I think that when thinking about collaboration using the web, the
small team of around 6 people is overlooked. I think its fundamentally
different from massive collaborative projects. I suppose I have had a
context in mind - [[The Action Leaning Set]]. This is usually group of
around 6 people. More specifically, I have in mind a [[Systems and
Cybernetics Action Leaning Set]] - a possible real life context for
me. I worked with a group of in this community for 2 years developing
a "Organisational Maturity Model" on TW. After all that time, I still
could not encourage experimentation with TW. It is difficult to
change peoples working habits, especially when they start to loose
their cool. Espoused Theory and real life action, according to Chris
Argyris [2] are not always the same. The slightest whiff of stress and
its back to "tried and tested" simple methods of collaboration.
A google seach for "Action Learning" leads me to a cruft pattern -
[[Academic papers are PDFs]] and "The nature of action learning: what
is learned about in action learning?" [1] is unavailable to those
without a login. If it were a small group, someone could download it
and share it -- by e-mail or put it in a dropbox. The [[All in one
file on my computer and not on the web for everyone to see]] aspect of
dropboxing is something i think less IT literate teams would be drawn
to.
People used to working on teams, ones which meet face to face, should
easily be able to organise a shared file structure. When audio, video,
images, spreadsheets and blogs are the materials of every day life,
dropbox and TW could be demonstratively beneficial in bringing things
together and enabling navigation though the material.
Alex
[1] http://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/29267/
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Argyris
However, as pointed out by others already DropBox gives
> a lot of flexibility in terms of external files, which under certain
> conditions might be more important than the added value of shared
> editing.
>
> Perhaps it might make sense to focus on and investigate scenarios and
> workflows where a master maintainer could pull content from
> contributors and thus (re-)structure all those content bits that ask
> for migration, besides a members individual content bits.
>
> A simple way to indicate that a tiddler is more of an individual,
> personal kind might be to prefix those with a users initials. However,
> the remaining question seems to be "if" or simply "how" there could be
> "shared tiddlers" (aka "collaboratively edited content"), rather than
> "shared wikis" in a DropBox environment.
>
> Cheers, Tobias.
>
Alex Hough
How would you guys think about organizing tiddlers in
such a shared DropBoxWiki environment?
>>>>
You could also save a search instead of filtering
http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SearchOptionsPlugin ;
<<<
Adds extra options to core search function including selecting which
data items to search, enabling/disabling incremental key-by-key
searches, and generating a list of matching tiddlers instead of
immediately displaying all matches. This plugin also adds syntax for
rendering 'search links' within tiddler content to embed one-click
searches using pre-defined 'hard-coded' search terms.
<<<
- Alex
In other words use saved search for tiddlers with text containing
strings like "- Alex", "Cheers, Tobias"
Alex Hough
Perhaps it might make sense to focus on and investigate scenarios and
workflows where a master maintainer could pull content from
contributors and thus (re-)structure all those content bits that ask
<<<
Previously I attempted to do something using morphological analysis
with TW and teams. I think there will always be some mess. If not,
something might get lost. The human sorting of the mess is meditation
on it, the [[incubation stage]] in creativity
Some links just came into my inbox:
http://www.swemorph.com/
http://www.swemorph.com/it-art.html
I am thinking that they might help somehow. The IT methods appear
super-heavy-weight, but it is the same underlying approach / theory
that Compendium (a java hypertext concept mapping tool produced by the
open University) uses. It has some tag sets: IBIS, de Bonos six hats
etc. to link things together.I think these are good ideas, but also
like to see user defined and emerging schemas. The team will adopt
these though their use or not - memes and all that
I tried Compendium before fully embracing TW for my idea mapping,
brainstorming, team work investigations. Its good but not webby
enough, and Java. It, like The Brain does is not good at local files.
- Alex
[1] http://compendium.open.ac.uk/institute/
[2] http://www.thebrain.com/
Måns
> The interesting pattern for me would therefore be to explode the
> TiddlyWiki file into separate files for each tiddler, stored alongside
> the associated file attachments.
I had some success using his php with his iTW and the
http://tiddlywiki.bidix.info/#UploadTiddlerPlugin...
I wonder if we could use this as a base for collaboration -
username A writes a tiddler to the TW which will be the tiddlername +
suffix-usernameA
username B writes a the same tiddler to the TW which will be
tiddlername + suffix-usernameB
username A saves the tiddler and refreshes the TW expecting his
modification to show up - however he gets an alert telling him that
there has been a conflicting edit made by tiddlername+suffixB and his
own tiddlername+suffixA.
What he sees in the story is the original tiddler (without any of the
changes yet), however the two conflicting tiddlerrevisions (tiddlername
+suffix-usernameA & tiddlername+suffix-usernameB) are shown in the
timeline in a new tab called "conflicts" (or whatever)....
If he clicks one of the "conflicttiddlers" he is presented with 3
options:
1: View
2:Merge
3:Delete
If he chooses option two or three the original tiddler will be
replaced by either a new merged tiddler or the tiddler which wasn't
deleted...
----
If username B did the exact same thing at the same time - the same
procedure would take place. The original tiddler would stay intact,
however the newly merged or chosen tiddlercontent would show
themselves in the sidebartabs - in the "confilicttab". Again there
would be 3 options:
1:View
2:Merge
3:Delete
----
If Eric Shulmans ExportTiddlerPlugin could be implemented as some sort
of intelligent advisor - Have a look at what has happened to the
original file since it was loaded into the browser and let you compare
tiddlers anticipating a overwrite or merge tiddlercontent action -
Then we could have something which resembles serverside behaviour for
local files - THAT WOULD BE AWESOME - and let us use tiddlywikis for
collaboration directly from locally hosted TWs on a network....
It just has to be SIMPLE and seemlesly integrated into the interface -
sth like a new tab "conflicts" and 3 options...
And it would work in a dropbox....
----
Sorry if I'm asking for the impossible, however my adventures with
TiddlyWiki has given me the belief that the impossible IS possible -
if a plugindev is doing some magic -.... (Eric?)
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
Tobias Beer
For one, there (currently) is no ftp access to dropbox, but there is a
php script that gives a basic framework for uploading files to
dropbox...
http://wiki.dropbox.com/DropboxAddons/PHPDropboxUploader
...however, I would expect quite a number of problems involved in
developing a pattern that ultimately allows secure multi-user editing
of a TiddlyWiki in combination with (something like)
UploadTiddlerPlugin, where the kind of conflict resolution you've
described, would only be one concern in quite many... a bit like
Pandora's box, at least that's what my belly would think of such an
undertaking as for the time being.
For example, one could have a "lock file" the content of which would
indicate that a TiddlyWiki-/PureStore-File is being locked by an
individual user. The browser runs some kind of check against that file
via ajax and checks on its contents. If locked, the user is displayed
a message, that the wiki is currently locked. If not, the lock-file is
being overwritten and the ajax check is run again in order to verify
that the wiki now indeed is locked for the current user. The user may
then run some scripts which manage file-interactions à la tiddler-
update/-merge/-create/-delete ...eventually unlocking the wiki
(immediately) when done. A second file might allow (an administrator)
to forcefully unlock the wiki, in case something went wrong in the
previous session.
If somehow tiddlers were stored in "bags" or even individually, then
such a locking mechanism might be applied to collections of tiddlers
or individual tiddlers, thus making one step forward to a less
conflict prone editing exerience.
Again, all of this is leaning way out of the window.
Cheers, Tobias.
andrew.j.harrison84
I experimented with princetiddlywiki and the TiddlyLockPlugin and the problem I ran into was initial load time became extreme for the number of tiddlers I was trying to load. If there is an include plugin that lazily includes tiddlers, I would like to know or if someone can write one?
Måns
I've had a lot of fun with BidiX's TiddlyHome (http://
tiddlyhome.bidix.info/)- and I think it might be a good solution for
small teams/firms...
As default it is setup so anyone can add himself as a user (or several
users) and create as many wikiinstances as he pleases. He can choose
to have a private wiki, hidden unless you know the password - or
public - everyone can read everything...
A user can add other users as members of a wiki - and this allows for
some collaboration (a member can login to a private wiki...). An
added user can edit and delete tiddlers, however it's solely the
privilige of the owners to be able to add/remove users/collaborators
or delete the wikiinstance..
I made some new TiddlyWikitemplates, (upgraded the core and changed
styles etc..) and hardcoded the list of available TiddlyWikitemplates
too choose from, directly in the php.. (I added the variables from
BidiX's old templates to my new ones .
It was tedious work, however very fun when it turned out that it
actually worked !! )**
If I could add the function of including other wikiinstances (I
believe I can, either with the IncludePlugin discussed in this thread
or Eric's http://www.tiddlytools.com/#LoadTiddlersPlugin ) I would
have a TiddlySpotlike service with some xtra options - for instance:
1 uploading of individual tiddlers for low bandwith application
(mobile netconnections)
2 sharing a/some tiddlywiki(s) or purestore file(s) with common doc's,
plugins or themes (sth like TiddlySpace at a very small scale...)
3) option to invite trusted members to edit content
4) option to replace, upgrade or refine the collection of available
TiddlyWiki templates
5) I could include the user options interface from TiddlyHome in the
TiddlyWikitemplates via iframes - adding a controlpanel + option to
create new wikis or users...
6) Because TiddlyHome just needs PHP/html I might be able to setup a
simple html/php server in my TW-OS (BrowserLinux) with a preconfigured
TiddlyHome service - This way I could have a Livecd/dvd which delivers
an instant TiddlySpotlike service for a local network over http...
ad 6) TW-OS (BrowserLinux) can write changes back to a live-dvd, be
installed to/run from an usb or hdd (frugal install (system in
isolated ext-files) - no partitioning or mbr-changes needed) and
booted from live-cd to allow for persistent changes to the TiddlyHome-
folder - without damaging or touching the existing system of the host
pc...
I like DropBox, actually use it all the time, however I really like
the idea of having a guerilla TiddlySpotlike system running from a
local network liveserver-OS - delivering a service which I can modify
to my hearts content and start or stop in seconds...
Maybe I'm just dreaming - and it might be too big a challenge for me,
however I will give it a spin and see if I can accomplish most of it
using opensource software - which DropBox is not...
**If you'd like to checkout my TiddlyHome adaption "in Danish - Im
afraid...." (I can PM a link)
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
Zargron
suitable set of core requirements for an initial, or perhaps "phase 1"
solution? Then, (semi-formally) identify other non-core requirements
so that the overall concept can be tackled on several fronts? In other
words, people with a vested interest in a particular requirement could
tackle those in parallel - trying to maintain a level of integration
with the core requirements.
It's just that it seems to me that this "concept" we are discussing is
somewhat "unlimited". There are lots of good ideas and lots of good
discussion - too many ideas to tackle in one hit. I know the thread
includes "collaboration" in the title. However, i get the feeling that
there are various Dropbox integration issues to still resolve. What
are the cornerstone aspects about Dropbox integration, with a view to
a collaborative solution, but not trying to implement those
requirements first up? And, as some experienced posters have
commented, Dropbox might not be the "best" platform for our needs.
I humbly apologies if i'm talking out of turn.
Alex Hough
I don't know if it is helpful, but Udo's inlcude plugin allows you to
specify the time in which tiddlers start loading, like this
<<include "file://C:/Private/journals/2006-12.html" delay: 8000 >> [1]
Lazy loading perhaps could be introduced by different PureStore
libraries of tiddlers (ones stored as HTML) but using sereral tiddlers
to include the sets of tiddlers you want when you need them
ALex
[1] http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/#[[The%20%22include%22%20Macro]]
Alex Hough
I don't think you need to do this in TiddlyLand. As far as I am
concerned all contributions to this thread have value to me (at
least), so thank you for taking time to compose a message.
> And, as some experienced posters have commented, Dropbox might not be the "best" platform for our needs.
It might not be. This thread could be a meander to knowwhere...
> It's just that it seems to me that this "concept" we are discussing is somewhat "unlimited". There are lots of good ideas and lots of good discussion - too many ideas to tackle in one hit. I know the thread includes "collaboration" in the title.
Perhaps I am guitly of straying off the point somewhat. I think what I
am trying to do is to look at ways of collaboration in general to help
generate ideas. I'm importing this thread's messages into my TW, so
I'm in brainstorm mode to a degree.
> Do you loosely agree on a suitable set of core requirements for an initial, or perhaps "phase 1" solution?
I don't know. You are welcome to make some suggestions. Open a dropbox
of your own with the aim for exploring the question? (It would be
interesting to have a few Dropbox collaboration projects on the go in
TiddlyLand)
> In otherwords, people with a vested interest in a particular requirement could tackle those in parallel - trying to maintain a level of integration with the core requirements.
Its a good idea.
>What do the TW rock stars do from here?
I don't know, I am not one of the TW rock stars. I suspect TW is has
more of 'indie' in aesthetic, but perhaps that's just me.
ALex
HansBKK
To me, Jeremy's tiddlers-as-independent-files is the core enabling
idea, for the reason he gave - it exposes each tiddler as an
independent entity for version control.
Many people using Dropbox, that's all fine and good, but I'd hate to
see a lot of Dropbox-specific work done when there are so many other
version control systems out there suitable for enabling multi-user
collaboration on TW-hosted content.
IMO we should let people use the version control & distribution
implementation they prefer - some are rabid Git'ers, others are
already set up with a Subversion network, and so on. These solutions
are very robust, both in features and reliability and IMO should be
the basis for handling the distributed authoring side of things.
TW's strength is in the presentation side of things, and if the TW
developers focus on simply implementing that one key concept - TW
dynamically pulling tiddler content from external files - it could be
done pretty quickly.
I don't think the TW code should be trying to overcome Dropbox's
limitations as a "back end" file-hosting/version control system - it
makes more sense for those users that need more than what Dropbox
offers to then just swap over to a more mature and widely implemented
platform for that side of things.
To the extent developers do want to code to a specific back-end, then
I would recommend a plug-in architecture, allowing for the same front-
end code to talk to different file-hosting/version control systems,
but of course that would be a much bigger project, and IMO premature
at this stage.
Saverio
with DropBox, leveraging its version control and ubiquitous syncing.
Then built multiple/varied front ends for manipulating those files.
The simplest ones would enable a single user to access (create, edit,
view) their own tiddlers from any platform (PC, Mac, web, iOS,
Android, etc.). More complicated ones could layer on view-only
sharing, first of individual tiddlers or whole collections of tiddlers
(ie. tiddywikis). Even more complicated front ends could enable
actual collaboration (two-way sharing), either synchronously or
asynchronously. But let's not lose sight of the benefit of even the
simplest use case.
Alex Hough
I am at a conference today.
I wonder if one possible use case could be ad-hoc conference wiki
activity over dropbox...
If any TW fans happen to be at Futureeverything and want to
experiment, i'd be interested in doing something
best wishes
Alex
andrew.j.harrison84
I am wondering how difficult would it be to hijack <<new tiddler>> so that it would create a new tiddler file with the title as the file name in pure store format and then automatically add it to an include list in the include pure store tiddler in the same folder. I only need it for IE7. I am still trying to create multi user environment without server and without dropbox with just shared folders and I am almost there. I also need a lazy include somehow.
Bauwe Bijl
I started a new thread with the dropbox including and publishing on
the Public dropbox folder:
http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki/browse_thread/thread/374e22944fa31c70#
So we can continue on experimenting on this thread with other (?)
solutions.
Andrew
> I am still
> trying to create multi user environment without server and without dropbox
> with just shared folders and I am almost there. I also need a lazy include
> somehow.
http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki/browse_thread/thread/374e22944fa31c70#
(dropbox or shared folders might be similar in this case)
However...the tiddler must be saved and the tw reloaded before the
exporter will list the tiddler.
Therefor I would like to see the "done" function does some loop for a
spacial tiddler...(saving auto>refresh>merge to export)
So that the tw where you write in will have a copy of the tiddler.
Normal tiddlers saved "normaly"
check: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9670094/DropBoxPublisher/publishnotes.html
(the publish button should then not be needed....just a createnew
button (that creates such "special" tiddler that also is saved to the
export html)
Bauwe
Saverio
control what is uploaded to the Dropbox share, and what is not. Could
you also untoggle, and the tiddler would be retracted from the share,
but still remain in your private tiddler?
On May 12, 12:04 pm, Bauwe Bijl <bauweb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everybody
>
> I started a new thread with the dropbox including and publishing on
> the Public dropbox folder:
>
> So we can continue on experimenting on this thread with other (?)
> solutions.
>
> Andrew
>
> > I am still
> > trying to create multi user environment without server and without dropbox
> > with just shared folders and I am almost there. I also need a lazy include
> > somehow.
>
Bauwe Bijl
> How about a new toggle "share" that does this fancy stuff, so you can
> control what is uploaded to the Dropbox share, and what is not. Could
> you also untoggle, and the tiddler would be retracted from the share,
> but still remain in your private tiddler?
by tag etc. etc.
For more advanced use cases this seems the best tool I guess...
I checked your retracting:
If I write a tiddler (it will be saved) > I pick that single one and
merge it to the export html
If I remove the tiddler in the tw the export still will have it :(
To bypass this (and sort of mimic) your retraction I suggest you could
use export only by tag.
In the example with the NotePublisher the only tiddler someone could
create is already tagged "note".
So when you merge your latest it is written to the file.
If you untag the tiddler:
If you keep the convention that all tiddlers exported have a common
tag...then a retraction mechanism could use of rewriting the entire
export html. (to do rewriting you have to delete the existing export
html)
Rewrite the export html with all titles tagged "note" (then the list
is updated again...minus that one)
Bauwe
Corey S
my use. The tricks the genius' have pulled off with the app/file are
amazing. Although I am interested in this thread from a theoretical
perspective, Hippocrates comes to mind.
<<<
First, do no harm.
<<<
The most important thing, at least to my mind, is to keep the single
file mechanic; at least in a maintained fork.
My preference would be a plugin-based system. Download the appropriate
tiddlers, save, refresh,
You could have a tiddler for the core collaboration system, then a
tiddler for each collaboration host.
Dropbox, an ftp site, tiddlyspace or tiddlyspot, or some other host
that hasn't been thought of yet.
The reason that I started using TW is it's future-proof nature. No
matter what OS I use (I started using Ubuntu a few years ago) I still
have access to my digital notes. And because its an html file, I can
get at the data even without a browser, I only need a txt reader.
Another saying comes to mind: KISS; at least the front end. I've tried
Tiddlyspot, but it's just too dense for my dull mind to penetrate.
@Saverio: How about a "share" tag? Multiple sharing groups each with a
different tag that directs that tiddler to others collaborating in the
same group, or maybe a tiddler that has a list of tags that are
shared? Or the ability to do both?
NHLPool, NFLPool, FIFA as examples; you can subscribe to each tag to
receive updates (RSS is already part of TW IIRC)
To share a tiddler then, just tag it with [share] and then however
many other tags yo need.
For gamedev = [share] [engine] [props] [environment] [scripts]
Messy to be sure, but storms (especially the brain-kind) are rarely
neat and tidy. I'm way too tired.......