TiddlyWiki.com vs. TiddlyWiki Community Site

[Tobias Beer]

This is (not only) a reply to Richards Post [1].

This is a plea for a well designed community-driven, invitation based
site. It doesn't have to be there by tomorrow, but after years of not
having it, this project really needs to get started. The thing is,
there is a difference between a movie and a movie studio... but,
today, tiddlywiki.com tries to be both.

At least, if it is going to be a tiddler based site, finally have it
based on tiddlyweb, tiddlyspace or tiddlyhoster ...so that core
contributors can start to take part ...not in documenting for some
google groups crawler but rather a full-blown tiddlywiki based
aggregation of what is outthere, what can be done and how.

Add some meaningful tools for inspection to the basket and content
quality or site structure should be manageable for whoever applies for
the job of a moderator. I mean, it's a wiki... this thing is supposed
to evolve not by the hands of some behind-the scene Gods but by people
like you (Jon, Jeremy, Fred, Martin, Colm, Matt, Ben or Eric ...but
also Mans, Wolfgang, Mario, Alex ...you see, the list sure is longer
than that) and me. A handful of reasonable basic tenets plus content
rules and it shouldn't take a decade for such a site to emerge without
ending up in content chaos.

So please, Jeremy, Chris, ... stick your heads together to make that
happen... and get some community site and design guru's on board. I
mean, I would definetely contribute if only there was such a project.
Even though a lot of information has already been gathered there, I
don't think TiddlySpace itself is the right place / has the right
design / ships with the right premises. This is an "enterprise" in its
very own right.

For example, it feels like a rather simple idea to have some tiddlyweb
based collection where members can edit some plugin-repository-
tiddler(s) in some plugin-bag(s)... as opposed to a TiddlyHub-Style
"apply here to have your whole wiki(s) crawled by our script, instead
of just the plugin(s) you actually want published".

I mean, if (authorized) people can edit their stuff freely, these
things evolve a whole lot quicker, presumably with significantly
higher data quality. Eventually it should be simple to query tiddlyweb
and extract exactly this information to have it shown in some
integrated, user-interaction-agnostic version of TiddlyHub. Add disqus
- because it's just not so important to have a one-stop-shop - and the
thing is ready to go.

Cheers, Tobias.

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki/msg/e621b2f20b8dff45

[Jeremy Ruston]

We're already a bit of the way there in terms of mechanism:
tiddlywiki.com is built from tiddlywiki-com.tiddlyspace.com. We can
add people as members to that space, and we can use inclusion to pull
in content from other spaces (as we currently do with
tiddlywiki-com-ref.tiddlyspace.com). Similarly, tiddlywiki.org is
tiddlywiki.tiddlyspace.com under the covers. The difference is that
tiddlywiki.com has an explicit uploading process that has to be
performed to update the tiddlywiki.com server with the latest content
from TiddlySpace.

I'd maybe take issue with the subject line: I don't think it's a
matter of choosing between tiddlywiki.com and a community site, we
need to have a sustainable way of maintaining both. I think that the
role of tiddlywiki.com is to act as a front door, including
authoritatively linking to community resources, and the most useful
examples. I'd like to see it become the site of record for the
community. Right now, my focus on tiddlywiki.com is just to make it
more useful by keeping it a bit more up-to-date. We can freely shift
the scope of what's covered on tiddlywiki.com vs. tiddlywiki.org.

Anyhow, I think that the mechanisms now exist to do much of what you
suggest. Perhaps tiddlywiki.org is the obvious place to be doing this
aggregation of community activity. Using tiddlyweb native recipes we
can do things like including content filtered by tag from contributor
spaces.

A decent theme for tiddlywiki.org would be immensely useful, and as
Chris has noted, we need some core volunteers who can step up and take
ownership of the seed content, taking care of it, and encouraging
others to contribute.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
>
>

--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jer...@osmosoft.com
http://www.tiddlywiki.com

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Nov 14, 8:54 pm, Tobias Beer <beertob...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> So please, Jeremy, Chris, ... stick your heads together to make that
> happen... and get some community site and design guru's on board. I
> mean, I would definetely contribute if only there was such a project.
> Even though a lot of information has already been gathered there, I
> don't think TiddlySpace itself is the right place / has the right
> design / ships with the right premises. This is an "enterprise" in its
> very own right.

Why is this something that Jeremy or I should do or be responsible
for? It's a community site, right? So presumably the community could
do it? TiddlyWiki, TiddlyWeb, TiddlySpace, TiddlyHoster, GieWiki (and
lots of other things) are _all_ free. If somebody is willing and just
needs a server, I can happily give you that, I've got servers, but
that's about it.

Or if it is a choice between me and Jeremy, why would it be me? I'd be
doing TiddlyWeb. In fact I have been doing tiddlyweb, and I'm unable
to sacrifice the time I devote to TiddlyWeb because I'd prefer to do
one thing well rather than several things poorly. TiddlyWeb has a
front domain site[1], a specific documentation site[2], a google group
with very quick response time[3], and a plugin namespace and
distribution system that is standard for tools of its type[4]. The
quality of these things have all suffered as a result of TiddlySpace,
I can't also add TiddlyWiki into the fray.

My continued voice in this discussion is as a concerned bystander. My
efforts in the past with doing things like migrating code to github
have been attempts to shake the tree, but I'm overbooked in other
parts of the tiddler universe and TiddlyWiki is not my baby nor my
thing. If you must have someone like that then I suggest you look to
Jeremy and/or Eric.

So my response is a warm-hearted version of this:

Tobias, I've seen you design some very cool things for TiddlyWiki, how
about you put your head together with Mans, Wolfgang, Mario, Alex and
whoever else would like to see it happen, and make it happen. If you
can get things flying, and you need some server space, let me know,
and I'll get you some space on my peermore server.

[1] http://tiddlyweb.com
[2] http://tiddlyweb.peermore.com/wiki/
[3] http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlyweb
[4] http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=tiddlywebplugins

[Måns]

Hi Chris, Tobias et all

> If you must have someone like that then I suggest you look to Jeremy and/or Eric.

+1

> Tobias, I've seen you design some very cool things for TiddlyWiki, how about you put your head together with Mans, Wolfgang, Mario, Alex and whoever else would like to see it happen, and make it happen. If you can get things flying, and you need some server space, let me know, and I'll get you some space on my peermore server.

+1

I had a response like that on the g+ threads, when I tried to convince
some users to try out TiddlySpace - and TiddlyWiki in general - a kind
earted professor at the Danish Technical University installed
TiddlySpace on one of his servers and told me to play with it...
http://tiddlyspace.gir.dk/

Its in a "frozen" state version wise - as I don't plan to update it
with a new core-version.
I simply think of this TiddlySpace as ONE BIG TIDDLYWIKI, with spaces
as TIDDLERS :-)

I'm poking around with it - ie, I have cloned the translations space
into a plugin space, an app space (not html-apps but advanced
collections of plugins and css), a themes space, help and tutorials
space, tips space, user space etc etc etc .... - and all spaces are
collected into a collections space - which is shown on the frontpage
space. All SinteInfo tiddlers can be read inside the frontpage space -
collections are available without ever leaving the frontpage space....

Here I am a "CopyCat" a translator and a (very modest) developper,
however my main focus is *not* the code but how a user finds material
for his/her needs FAST....

I think that maybe, (if I'm lucky) my approach (translations and
tiddlywikiapps) will attract some users (danes) who otherwise wouldn't
try TiddlyWiki or TiddlySpace, because the official documentation is
in english - and everything seems to be one huge sandbox/playground/
supermarket where your contributions are showcased if you choose to
tag a SiteInfo tiddler with a relevant category tag - or if you tag
*any* tiddler with i.e. "@tips" that tiddler will be appear in a list
on the @tips space etc ...

This is pretty much what is being done already on TiddlySpace - the
difference is that (atm) I'm the one who delivers and maintains all
things which will appear on the frontpage and people who try it out,
ask questions, and I answer via the <<message messages.spaceName>>
macro... etc...

I guess that a perfect TiddlySpace (following this model) working as
one big TiddlyWiki or tiddlywiki-repository could be a TiddlyTools
clone mimicing Eric's personal repository of plugins with someone like
Eric maintaining all plugins - QuickStart documents/apps, News etc
etc....

I think TiddlySpace is VERY similar to TiddlyWiki in a
"MacroPerspective" - and maybe the next generation TW-FOR-THE-REST-OF-
US should be a fullblown TiddlySpace system with tutorial apps
available from the backstage - run from another server than THE
tiddlyspace.com system?? -

Please count me in, if I can be of any help, even if I have *no*
skills as a programmer nor as a designer, however I *would* prefer if
some/one of the gifted programmers would take up the challenge and
maybe even create the ultimate COMMUNITY TIDDLYSPACE, or "just" a
space place to look for (and find) whatever we all are looking for,
when we need sth from TW...

Cheers Måns Mårtensson

[Tobias Beer]

Chris, Jeremy...

a) I do understand the reluctancy to see this as personal projects on
your side... I sure feel that, too.

b) While a "pure" community site would deliver a lot, I believe, it
risks not being as prominent or "official" as would probably be good
for it while also containing a huge amount of duplicate information
with respect to tiddlywiki.com, tiddlywiki.org and all the rest of
it... and of course, risking core contributors (also refering to
people around Osmosoft) not taking part but leaving it up to "the
enthousiasts" to, again, find this "too big to succeed" of an
undertaking fail before even having started.

c) I would appreciate if the following kind of thinking would
immediately stop: "But I know where to find the information that I
need, so that must account for something." With respect the
TiddlyVerse, I would argue that one of the pictures that frame the
current situation is more like that of a teacher who doesn't notice or
care about the fact that pupils just don't get whatever he or she
intends to be educational about ...with the occasional smart kid
waving his arms overenthousiastically for the teacher to call upon him
to let him try and explain the thing to the others. On the other its a
picture of a broad range of particular interests and roads to take yet
no trade fair that exposes all these things in an adequate context.

d) The biggest issue today, for me, is that - on the one hand -
information around TiddlyWiki seems so scattered and unorganized that
one just has no idea where to start in order to evaluate what tiddlers
actually are or can deliver in the context of xyz and - on the other -
that no visual design guru seems to have quite taken it upon him to
enter the realm of tiddledom to provide pleasing aesthetics around all
the hacky-but-works coding that takes place.

e) Ok, so it looks like what this project really lacks is a solid
design phase... not just visually, but also in terms of communication
strategy, process analysis, system architecture, etc...

Professional undertakings around high end systems and implementations
probably require tackling such a web based beast from different
angles. So we'd probably find ourselves having requirements with
respect to...

0 - an understanding of all kinds of information that (different)
visitors (might) seek with respect to TiddlyWiki, e.g. the treasure
they are trying to dig out, their intentions and the (user-/click-)
journeys on our site which (we believe) they would suspect to get them
closer to their desired ends

1 - a backend model or store(s) which - in a well structured manner -
provide a solid, extensible framework to gather and manage all
relevant information ...the answer for which cannot simply be "we use
some tiddlyspace" ...but rather involves specific setup / design /
component instructions for each desired (content) feature

2 - controllers and bits of code that allow to compute, manage,
aggegate and pipe the stuff that sits in well known locations of our
model... both in terms of backend as well as frontend

3 - a well defined frontend representation that delivers a powerful
yet streamlined user experience ...in terms of components and the
basic content elements that we expect we'd want / need to use

4 - wrapped up in some overall artistry that matches the whole thing
visually when it comes to background, layout, proportions, colors,
fonts, etc...

f) Perhaps a roadmap would give everyone a solid understanding of
which things are in the focus for which stage / release / milestone of
the overall project of a living "community site".

g) I remember how once we started with the "community space" or
similar undertakings like that... I would believe these eventually
failed or got stuck because there was no common denominator in terms
of a shared understanding of how to actually get the job done, how to
tame the beast with all these ideas floating around.

h) TiddlyWiki suffers a bit from the impression that simple
prototyping allows you to skip a solid design phase along with an
evaluation as to whether or not an idea indeed brings much desired
benefit or should perhaps be postponed or skipped in favor of other,
more critical components, features, etc...

i) So, such a project therefore, to begin with, needs a shared
manifesto, basic tentets, an organization around people who take it
upon them to take care of certain aspects of the project (obviously
with means to contact them) and, of course, transparent documentation
from day 1 along with a common understanding of what needs to be
documented and in which way, so that any contributor understands the
big picture and eventually his part in it.

j) I would also believe that some kind of issue tracking à la Jira or
OnTime to structure and track all the little workpackages and to
visualize dependencies would be highly beneficial as well.

k) Perhaps we need to start by investigating "what qualifies a solid
opensource project" as opposed to amateurish(ly presented) pieces of
information around codebits ...or by asking ourselves what picture we
want to put up for others to admire all the inspiration that those
little tiddlers can provide, if put in the right light.

tb

[rakugo]

> b) While a "pure" community site would deliver a lot, I believe, it
> risks not being as prominent or "official" as would probably be good
> for it while also containing a huge amount of duplicate information
> with respect to tiddlywiki.com, tiddlywiki.org and all the rest of
> it... and of course, risking core contributors (also refering to
> people around Osmosoft) not taking part but leaving it up to "the
> enthousiasts" to, again, find this "too big to succeed" of an
> undertaking fail before even having started.

tiddlywiki.org is this no?
I would expect tiddlywiki.com to be a front door with the bare minimum
information. It should tell me how to use TiddlyWiki, it should point
to a community site (tiddlywiki.org), point to documentation of the
tiddlywiki core and point to the code. Not much else is really needed
although a blog might be useful to list known issues.

Tiddlywiki.org should go into more detail. It should clearly signpost
to me how I can get involved, how i can improve the software, how i
can get help and maybe make it easier for users to sign up to the
mailing list.

tiddlywiki.org as it stands has lots of good information but is far
too noisy with no clear sign posts. It mixes developer documentation
with end user documentation - a sorry state of affairs.

The navigation is terrible. There are links to the home tiddler and a
random button (which seems like a gimmick). Instead I'm expected to
search through the timeline or use the search to find the content I
need. I think this is because, although people are keen to look after
the content, someone who cares about this stuff should be keeping an
eye on the presentation.

My two cents would be
* someone needs to own this problem - note this doesn't mean solve the
problem, but it means be the coordinator - ie. the person who brings
up the topics of "the documentation doesn't cover X, and doesn't cover
Y" I'm happy to help with things like UI and code and getting the
relevant content in there, but I think what would be really useful
(and cool!) is if someone in the group outside Osmosoft, Jeremy and
Eric takes control of this.
* there should be a public wiki where anyone can contribute
* there should be a deployed wiki to tiddlywiki.org which is composed
of the best bits of the public wiki and picked out by a subset of the
TiddlyWiki community (including the coordinator) to ensure content
doesn't die and is well structured.

PS. http://tiddlywiki-org2.tiddlyspace.com/ is a bit closer to how I
would like tiddlywiki.org to look like - I knocked this up to
hopefully get people thinking and experimenting.

[Alex Hough]

I think that the problem at hand might be best re-framed as an
organisational problem. Its not a technical issue, rather its about
people, roles and resources and organising them.

Alex
ps. i have scanned the thread above, there are some excellent points.
I hope to return to them later.

[Jeremy Ruston]

I'm just seeing an ordinary TiddlySpace at
http://tiddlywiki-org2.tiddlyspace.com/, is that what you intended?

Best wishes

Jeremy

[rakugo]

Sorry I had a private SideBar which was the most important bit...
changed.

On Nov 16, 10:20 am, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy.rus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm just seeing an ordinary TiddlySpace athttp://tiddlywiki-org2.tiddlyspace.com/, is that what you intended?

> > PS.http://tiddlywiki-org2.tiddlyspace.com/is a bit closer to how I

> > would like tiddlywiki.org to look like - I knocked this up to
> > hopefully get people thinking and experimenting.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.

[Tobias Beer]

Mhhh, Tiddlywiki.org really needs a huge overhaul ...in terms of much
needed content categorization and accessibility and, most importantly,
the underlying template. I think it begs for a clean initial design
which is then implemented in a template that provides all the needed
placeholders and ui elements yet is clean enough to not distract with
any tiddlywiki editing noise, toolbars, sidebars and what not.

Is it possible to implement a switch that would theme tiddlywiki.org
differently for visitors as opposed to members? For one, I don't
really want my profile image on the landing page or really any page
that I edited. This information does not seem helpful to any visitor.
The same goes for the different serialization formats and really the
complete sidebar, heck... even tags! It doesn't need a timeline or a
full blown list of tags, orphans with the same prominence as in your
everyday tiddlywiki.

All tiddlywiki.org needs to begin with are navigational elements,
content blocks and a search, perhaps a slim history helper...
everything else should come later and maybe only for dedicated use-
cases and not in a general fashion for each tiddler or the template at
large, so that it more behaves like a "real", well organized website.
Tags and other tidbits should only be visible if specifically added to
the page you're looking at.

Mhhh, maybe if I'll get to it I'll create some wireframes for
discussion.

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011, Tobias Beer wrote:

> Is it possible to implement a switch that would theme tiddlywiki.org
> differently for visitors as opposed to members? For one, I don't
> really want my profile image on the landing page or really any page

This is possible if there are two sets of the various template and
theme tiddlers: one set that are public, and another set that are
private. This was one of the original use cases of the public/private
split in TiddlySpace.

> All tiddlywiki.org needs to begin with are navigational elements,
> content blocks and a search, perhaps a slim history helper...
> everything else should come later and maybe only for dedicated use-
> cases and not in a general fashion for each tiddler or the template at
> large, so that it more behaves like a "real", well organized website.
> Tags and other tidbits should only be visible if specifically added to
> the page you're looking at.

That sounds really good.

--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
[...]