GM Magic Pie

[Jérôme Daoust]

Details on the manufacturer's website...

General info:

http://www.goldenmotor.com/magicpie/magicpie.html

Features:
http://www.goldenmotor.com/magicpie/features_magicpie.html

 

Discussion on E-S:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13292

 

Features (copied from website)...

 

Magic Pie's controller is inside the motor. Users would only need to connect the motor to the throttle and brakes to make it work.

With a thickness of only 60mm, Magic Pie allows users to install both a 6-speed sprocket and a disc brake plate while still fitting it onto a common bike frame with a 135mm rear wheel mounting width.

Magic Pie allows users to install either 140mm or 160mm Disc Brakes without having to use any adapters or components. There are 12 mounting holes catered for both disc brake types.

Typical motor cables exit through the axles. The cables of the Magic Pie exit through the cable port out of the hub. Hence there's no need to worry about cable damage when they're nested safely in the port.

Magic Pie has 56 Magnets, 63 slots and 56 poles. In other terms, it has 20% more strength and torque than typical motors. With it's large 320mm diameter, there's no hill too steep for it.

The Integrated cruise controller has functions such as True Regenerative Braking, Cruise Speed Control, Motor hall sensor failure redundency, anti-theft wheel lock via detection of vibration, Motor phase self detection and calibration, Support PAS (pedelec for EU regulations).

The Integrated cruise controller accepts multiple voltages (24V/36V/48V) not exceeding 60V. You can tune up your Magic Pie's performance by just feeding it with a battery of higher voltage.

Just connect 2 wires to the motor and you're ready to roll.

 

[bMF]

Not so much Matra but definitely E+ might want to have a close look
inside one of these to check out how much 'flattery' is going on here.

_ ,
_\=\_
(o)+(o)

> mp_motor.jpg
> 138KViewDownload

[deerfencer1]

Interesting indeed. If this motor is half decent it could well be an
EMS killer at $300. Sure has the boyz at ES atwitter. Personally I'd
wait to see some detailed reviews and 6-12 month test run results
before I'd consider a purchase but admit I love the idea of variable
voltage. Also, if GM is a quality company these motors will only get
better over time. And remember, EMS has years more experience with
these type motors for high power e-bike apps at this point in time.

Separately, I see no mention of the noise factor--are these motors
silent like our TFs?


LH

[Ambrose Liao]

According to their rep:

"It's not exactly quiet, it has this soft, high pitched sound, the kind of sound you could hear in a Nissan Street Racing car at high speeds, however it is not loud enough to be called noise, it's more like a mixture of a levitating spacecraft and a sports car."

Sounds very Jetson to me! :-)

Ambrose

[deerfencer1]

A,

Thanks for researching this and posting an answer. The kind of sound
described by the GM rep would probably be enough to put a dedicated
silence snob like myself off these motors but other e-bikers could
probably care less. IMO Wavecrest and TF (and now EMS) have set the
bar so high that johnny-come-latelies like Golden Motor will be
falling short for a long time when it comes to the total package of
seamless, robust (and quiet) performance.

That said, competition is a good thing, especially if it gets EMS off
its arse and dealing, and ideas like variable voltage input are gold
IMO. From what I've read of GM's rep on ES re these motor/controllers,
they sound fairly sophisticated in re to layers of protection to
prevent overvolting and the like.

LH

On Oct 18, 8:59 pm, Ambrose Liao <ambrosel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to their rep:
>
> "It's not exactly quiet, it has this soft, high pitched sound, the kind of
> sound you could hear in a Nissan Street Racing car at high speeds, however
> it is not loud enough to be called noise, it's more like a mixture of a
> levitating spacecraft and a sports car."
>
> Sounds very Jetson to me! :-)
>
> Ambrose
>

[Jeff at EV Bones]

On Oct 15, 11:11 am, deerfencer1 <deerfenc...@aol.com> wrote:

> Interesting indeed. If this motor is half decent it could well be an
> EMS killer at $300. Sure has the boyz at ES atwitter.

> LH

heh heh yah, those ES guys - atwitter alright; pie hole, pie faced,
pie-in-the-sky. They're just munchin' on the pie :))

Those ES guys have been heckling "magic pie" from the cheap seats for
a few days now.

You'd think that GM's wayward son, educated in the west, would have
stamped out that lame name before it published.
He's been fencing with the ES guys, and has let them get under his
skin. It's a self inflicted gunshot wound ;)

(start of rant by GM exec today)
If you have any other problems, arguments or personal issues against
us, please tell them to a wall, tell a friend about it or find a
psychiatrist.
If you have other seriously business related issues or questions,
please e-mail me at yao...@goldenmotor.com.

I am the sales executive, not a punchbag, please do not send me trash.
Thank you for your cooperation, the young man, Ben Chan, will no
longer be posting here, his internship has ended and he is going back
to school with an A+ grade. His attitude was adopted from me. If you
don't like my attitude or my ways of customer relations (most of you
are not my customers anyway), please go report this to your local
police station and hopefully I will be jailed for being rude to online
anonymous users who do not even post their real names.

*Personal comments: Some of you are professionals, nice guys and
potential clients for this business. Some of you have no jobs, no
education, no money but still feel the need to flame on this forum. I
don't really consider this forum a big market, however I do not know
why the promotion was posted here. I will only give this offer to
professionals regardless. I still have a bad image of this forum, and
do not try to tell me that my bad attitude towards this forum was due
to my personal nature. Do not try to speak up for the people who have
been rude and nasty towards me, I base my thoughts on first
impression. I believe in fighting fire with fire and I get personal if
you get personal. For the people who read this, and think that this
will lead our company to destruction, please do understand that eBikes
is a very small part of our company. For potential dealers who have
read this and think that this will put you away from doing business
with us, please read through all posts and the replies of this
username, I believe everyone has self-respect and the rights of self-
defense. I am the man that kicks the dog after it bit me.

Sincerely yours,

Yao Yuan
Sales Executive
GoldenMotor Technology Co. Ltd

(end of rant)

Reminds me of a japanese soft drink; "Pocari Sweat"

It's all in fun.

I'd sure like to a have an hour or two with that "magic pie" on the
bench. The pole structures have my interest because the motor itself
is so thin. And I've a strong feeling it's not the usual three phase
profile.


Regards, Jeff

[Ambrose Liao]

Hey Jeff,

Where was this "rant" posted originally? I would love to read what triggered this response. I don't think anyone here did or said anything to warrant this kind of negativity!

Ambrose

[Jeff at EV Bones]

On Oct 19, 9:46 am, Ambrose Liao <ambrosel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Jeff,
> Where was this "rant" posted originally? I would love to read what triggered
> this response. I don't think anyone here did or said anything to warrant
> this kind of negativity!
>
> Ambrose

Oh no, that was not the point, it was all the ES guys heckling GM from
the cheap seats :)))

Here's the original link on ES, go to page 13, post #180:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13292


And here's the long awaited for magic pie filling:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13662

Jeff

[Ambrose Liao]

Aha. Thanks.

The Pie Filling post seems like a BIG disappointment. 22mph at 48V and electric drill type noise is NOT "Magic!".

Ambrose

[Ambrose Liao]

I reread that post and this is what it says about speed.

"Top speed on the flat was 25km/hr on 40v and about 36 km/hr on 60v." 

60V is also it's top voltage. They've specifically limited it on the "Pie." This doesn't sound like anything that EMS or anyone else should worry about.

Ambrose

[deerfencer1]

On Oct 19, 2:18 pm, Ambrose Liao <ambrosel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I reread that post and this is what it says about speed.
>
> "Top speed on the flat was 25km/hr on 40v and about 36 km/hr on 60v."
>
> 60V is also it's top voltage. They've specifically limited it on the "Pie."
> This doesn't sound like anything that EMS or anyone else should worry about.
>
> Ambrose
>

Agree--this is the first time I've seen speeds posted for this motor
and they are disappointing indeed. At 40V my Wavecrest X motor gets up
close to 2X the 25km speed reported here for the GM Tragic Pie ;-)

LH

[Jerome Daoust]

Some updates from the other discussions...

From http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=203021#p203021
Yao Yuan, GM Representative:
I have been brought to attention, the ridiculously slow speed of
Hyena's magic pie. This should NOT be the case. Our engineers said to
me 5 minutes ago, that the Pie he received was of High RPM, it should
go at least 47KPH on a 48V. I can confirm this myself as I was the
first rider of the Magic Pie.
HOW TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN HIGH RPM AND EUROPEAN VERSION MAGIC PIE:
The HIGH rpm has FLATS on the axle. The low RPM high torque has NO
flats on the axle.

Suspicion of initial reversed polarity battery hook-up causing damage,
invalidating the test:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=203064#p203064

From http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?PHPSESSID=d2f406d2465edeba0687db71755f8410&topic=1408.msg6832#msg6832
Yao Yuan, GM Representative:
Top speed should be 35KPH - 36V, 47KPH - 48V.
Also the limit is at 65V for this shipment.
and in http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?PHPSESSID=d2f406d2465edeba0687db71755f8410&topic=1408.msg6836#msg6836
If your pie is faulty, I will send you a new one

[Jerome Daoust]

From: http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1411.0
Yao Yuan, GM Representative:
...the warehouse people sent the old low rpm to you (Hyena), that's my
fault
...shipped a High Speed magic pie, this time no mistakes, maybe at a
very expensive 1-day shipping, to Hyena, Australia

[Jeff at EV Bones]

Yao Yuan has made efforts to try and reverse what seemed a deep
dissatisfaction with GM as a whole.
He has refunded some long simmering disasters, and reviewed others.
His fluency in qwerty engrish is flawless.
Maybe those ES guys didn't get under his skin, and he was only playing
them. Crafty maneuvering perhaps?

And then yesterday, he goes sideways. As in Battcrap Nutso sideways on
the ES in a new thread down in the cesspool.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13705

Remember, this is directly from Yao Yuan at GM. I saw a reference to
"tragic pie" in his rant. Unless someone else beat Larry to the pun,
he must be reading the TF forum as well.

Anyway, it's good for a giggle. Jeff

[Jerome Daoust]

From
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1408.msg6924#msg6924
"I had some wind in my back today and got a top speed of 52 km/h on my
speedo and 51.6km/h (32mph) on my Garmin gps. Riding against the wind
was 45km/h and this is also gps sertified."

And 2 posts above he says that he was running it at 48 V (normal):
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1408.msg6924#msg6924

So averaging his downwind/upwind speed at 48 V:
48.3 (average of 51.6 and 45) km/h (29.8 mph)
This validates the manufacturer's expectation of 47 km/h (29 mph) at
48 V.

[deerfencer1]

Jeff,

Such soap opera-quality drama over there at ES, it IS pretty amusing.
I did see the reference to "tragic pie" and cracked up.

In any case I'm genuinely glad to see this motor can get up to near 30
mph at 48V, but will continue to recommend E+ motors (or used TFs for
that matter) over any contenders out there based on EMS engineers'
past history with Tidalforce and these motors' silent powerful
performance; IOW I'll pass on the Pie for now and wait for further
reports before forming any more judgments.

LH

[Jeff at EV Bones]

On Oct 26, 8:11 am, deerfencer1 <deerfenc...@aol.com> wrote:
> In any case I'm genuinely glad to see this motor can get up to near 30
> mph at 48V, but will continue to recommend E+ motors (or used TFs for
> that matter) over any contenders out there based on EMS engineers'
> past history with Tidalforce and these motors' silent powerful
> performance; IOW I'll pass on the Pie for now and wait for further
> reports before forming any more judgments.
>
> LH

Hi Larry, it's nice to see speed numbers for a given wheel size/
voltage. That provides us some indication of efficiency.
One thing I've always been wondering about when viewing the various
hub motor offerings; what's is the Torque at a given RPM, wheel
diameter, motor voltage and current consumed?
Heck, I'll take a published torque in ft lbs, newtons, or sphincters.
Anything is better than nothing.

The recent posts on the magic pie have it as a four pole motor, with
dinky magnets, with a relatively large motor circumference. It'll get
to 30mph @48v, but how long did it take to get there?

That's one of the mysteries we can't seem to get answered by these
vendors. Perhaps because the prospective buyers don't know to ask, or
don't understand that it cannot be extracted by the given watt rating.

The TF motors have fairly large magnets, and they pull really hard
when overvoltaged. Same with the Crystalyte 530X and their large
magnets. I've confirmed I can accelerate to 25mph quicker on the
Crystalyte 5303 motor with the same 48V battery pack I use on a stock
tidalforce X motor. And in theory they are rated the same wattage.
That's just for example, and it might vary for others.

Regards, Jeff

[Bike_on]

Jeff,
That is a good point about acceleration. It is my understanding that
a higher voltage is nice because I=V/R, so higher V = higher torque.
However, if the perm magnets can't handle the flux density..
fugettaboutit. True?

Dan

[Jeff at EV Bones]

On Oct 26, 1:00 pm, Bike_on <therowe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Jeff,
> That is a good point about acceleration. It is my understanding that
> a higher voltage is nice because I=V/R, so higher V = higher torque.
> However, if the perm magnets can't handle the flux density..
> fugettaboutit. True?
>
> Dan

-resend due to typo-

Dan, you're exactly right. If the electromagnets are saturated with
the flux density at near maximum, a further power increase will fall
off sharply. The only one I have solid experience in this with was the
Crystalyte 408. It saturated at ~1.8kW, and anything more put into it
was being dumped as heat. As we all know, heat is the bullshit
detector for efficiency. In my example that worked out as ~25A at 72V
= 1.8kW. But it could also be 37A at 48V = 1.8kW, or even 50A at 36V
= 1.8kW.

Now, if we did power the motor at a modest 36V, our top speed would be
considerably less than if we powered it at the same equivalent watts
at 72V. And you are right again by selecting a higher voltage to power
the motor with, than just higher current (amps) for greater speed as
the higher voltage is needed to counter the BEMF (Back Electro Motive
Force).

Jeff

[deerfencer1]

Some very good points here. My gut feeling is that the quality of the
"innards" of the WC motor is almost certainly much higher than the GM
motor, if only based on retail pricing and our knowledge of the types
of materials and engineering that went into the Tidalforce motor. And
of course there's the track record to date on the TF, which has been
excellent.

LH

[Jerome Daoust]

Another review:

GM Forum: Golden Motor Magic Pie review
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1424.0

[Jerome Daoust]

Already satisfied with 30 mph? If not, there is a higher speed
"Generation 2" in development:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=206292#p206292

Yao Yuan, 2009/10/27: 3 types of magic pie:
1)Euro legal, slow RPM, highest torque (Hyena's magic pie)
2)Euro Illegal, high RPM, high torque (What was sold on the first day)
3)Euro Illegal, SUPER high RPM, LOW torque, Matt surface finish, Magic
Pie GEN 2, (Development in progress)

... for every No.2 magic pie owners, you can quote us your serial
number and you can get a GEN 2 for 50% discount.

[bMF]

"And in theory they are rated the same wattage."

what was the controller current limit for the xlyte pegged at?
also if u don't mind my asking, what type of controller are u using?
was it a kelly?

_ ,
_\=\_
(o)+(o)

[Jeff at EV Bones]

The controller is a stock oldie analog Crystalyte 25A, driven at 48V.
Shameful, I know.
It will actually draw about 27 battery amps WOT at low speed.

Regards, Jeff

[Jerome Daoust]

Kevin H in the Netherlands has 500 km on his and seems happy:
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?PHPSESSID=a21f3b815a49a9fa03ebc04d42039495&topic=1510.0

I now have the MP for several weeks and I got 500km on the speedo.
It is amazing that this hub motor was so easily to install( I got no
experience at all )
I drove an average of 38km/h with 43.2 top (no pedalling)
No overheating yet.

[remf]

Jerome, I'd say the MP is probably the best value kit available.

Around $750 for the kit & 12 Ah LiFePO4. Speeds at 48V appear much the
same as an Optibike. At 58V, you'd be flying. Range is another story.

C'mon you know you want it :P

On Nov 24, 5:21 am, Jerome Daoust <eyestothe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kevin H in the Netherlands has 500 km on his and seems happy:http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?PHPSESSID=a21f3b815a49a9fa03ebc0...

[Jérôme Daoust]

I've been avoiding kits, but the more I see clean installations, the more tempted I become to also give it a try...

 

Magic-pie on Koga-Miyata

http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1527.0

 

[Jerome Daoust]

Now available in a 16" wheel:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=221301#p221301