I started using Thingiverse 3 years ago.. (it will be 4 years this coming Christmas) shortly after receiving my very first 3D printer (as a kit, yes, from New York). I posted a few designs, and I like to think that I built some cool stuff to share with the world. Some of it was fairly complex, and some of it has lived far longer than I ever though possible. The 15mm calibration cube I uploaded 3 years ago I saw printed by a brand new reprap just a few weeks ago.
And it makes me believe in Open Source
And I remember when Thingiverse went through its first big re-design. You know, the one that was designed by someone who had never owned a laptop. And that was bad. The website was now so unattractive that I used it less. The few hints of a social environment were blasted away by the big FEATURED thing. And the important stuff that we all knew needed fixing. Well, thats still not fixed, even today. But my usage dropped off. I designed many cool things though. Some for GE (you might remember those videos. I've never designed so many planes in such a short period of time before or since) some for myself. And they mostly ended up on Thingiverse.
And when I got so frustrated with you know who, that I designed my own 3D printer (actually, lots of 3D printers) I wanted to host those designs on Thingiverse.
Because I believe in Open Source
And I looked at what other people had built, and they looked at what I had built... And one day someone looked at a machine I had designed and built and asked if they could buy one. And the machine I had built on so much Open Source work grew and developed. And I took it to MakerFaire, and people actually gave me money for it. And all of it was possible because of Open Source.
And I love Open Source.
And now comes the surprise. After using Thingiverse for so long, I am -of course- planning on hosting my designs on Thingiverse. I believe in Open Source remember? And I want everyone to see what we are doing, and maybe improve it, or hack it. Or anything. And then all the Occupy Thingiverse stuff kicks off. People who are unhappy (some are downright furious) with you know who's decision on staying Open Source take a second look at the Thingiverse Terms of Use. And they see that its now something of a legal quagmire for users. Or as Lawyers call it, boilerplate. You know the kind of thing. You waive your rights to anything at all, ever, anywhere, for any reason. Now any good lawyer will tell you that most of that is worthless, its just there to make it more expensive to sue. But it worries me.
But I still believe in Open Source.
But I still get my lawyer to read the Thingiverse Terms of Service. Because there was never an alternative legal opinion offered in all that. And the problem that pops up is not what I expected. See section 2.2 (a) you shall not license, sell, rent, lease, transfer, assign, distribute, host, or otherwise commercially exploit the Site or Services;
What does that mean? Well, 'otherwise commercially exploit'? That could mean almost anything. Its certainly a grey area.
What does that actually mean? Ok, it means that any commercial entity that uses Thingiverse (especially if they are hosting their Source code) are open to legal action from Thingiverse for violating Section 2.2 (a) of the Terms of Use.
So it means that the awesome design by a California artist, that I modified and re-uploaded to Thingiverse... I can't use that to show off the capabilities of my 3D printer. Regardless of the 'secondary' license.
It means that I cannot use Thingiverse at all.
So I'm leaving.
I have deleted some of my content. I cannot bring myself to delete it all. There is 3 years of history there, cool stuff I built on my dining room table, on my desk. Ideas that I was able to share with some of you. I hope that it inspired you in some small way, so many people posted work that inspired me.
I'm leaving to try and find somewhere else to share my designs. I might have to build it myself. I wish you all well.
You obviously care a lot about this Mark. I'll take the advice of my lawyer when it comes to what the Terms of Use on Thingiverse mean though. I did not comment on the Occupy Things, for a number of reasons.
We had posted some files to thingiverse, but we had to withdraw those files when we were made aware of the issues. We will be posting our source once we have decided where best to do that. Would you like me to email you the source files? We don't go on about being open on our website because we think that actions are what we are judged by. We are more than happy to share our work. We believe in open source, we believe in the repair manifesto, we believe that our customers hacking on our product only makes it better.
And as you point out, everything about our machine apart from the mechanical design is ALREADY Open. Google will find the Source For you.
This is not about the choices that have been made. This is not really about what I can't share and what I do at work. This is me saying a truly sad goodbye to a website that has built so much. That I can no longer use. I'm happy to discuss that, but I'm not here to argue with anyone.
<theruttmeis...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> You obviously care a lot about this Mark. I'll take the advice of my lawyer when it comes to what the Terms of Use on Thingiverse mean though.
> I did not comment on the Occupy Things, for a number of reasons.
> We had posted some files to thingiverse, but we had to withdraw those files when we were made aware of the issues.
> We will be posting our source once we have decided where best to do that.
> Would you like me to email you the source files? We don't go on about being open on our website because we think that actions are what we are judged by. We are more than happy to share our work.
> We believe in open source, we believe in the repair manifesto, we believe that our customers hacking on our product only makes it better.
> And as you point out, everything about our machine apart from the mechanical design is ALREADY Open. Google will find the Source For you.
> This is not about the choices that have been made. This is not really about what I can't share and what I do at work. This is me saying a truly sad goodbye to a website that has built so much. That I can no longer use. I'm happy to discuss that, but I'm not here to argue with anyone.
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<liveatmegan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When i asked about the TOS, all i got was "Yes, legalese can be scary".
> Nothing explanatory. I expect the same here, or no reaction at all.
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Philipp Tiefenbacher
<wizard...@gmail.com>wrote:
> These TOS are really not scary at all...don't understand what the fuzz
> is all about.
I think I understand it pretty well. It's another person who wants to
violate the open source contract by copying things and not giving credit
while taking it commercial, and to prove he's not violating it, he blames
someone else (thingiverse) for his actions.
First, I am absolutely amazed your attorney gave you that kind of a reading on that section of the TOS, which clearly refers to using the site for commercial use. Our IP attorney here, (at my company) says your attorney's analysis is way off the mark. I use an IP attorney quite a bit, and my company specifically does software for the web.
The section your attorney is concerned about clearly states it is about the site. Not about the items that are shared on the site.
"So it means that the awesome design by a California artist, that I modified and re-uploaded to Thingiverse... I can't use that to show off the capabilities of my 3D printer." That is completely false. I don't know if that is your analysis of what your attorney told you, or if that is what your attorney directly used as an example, but it is completely and utterly ridiculous.
That would be like saying that if NBC posted a trailer of one of their shows on Youtube, they would be unable to use it in any of their other venues. That is my attorney's direct comparison.
Could you post a little of what your attorney actually wrote about this? That is, did you actually get a legal opinion rendered? I doubt it.
You need to get a second legal opinion, although I am suspect you actually got a first opinion.
So, I think what you have done here is post a hypocritical and nasty post, with no foundation in any actual legal opinion, while attempting to stir up another mess. By associating your repeated open source comments in your original post, you are actually trying to criticize Makerbot, your competitor, not Thingiverse.
If people fall for this, I will be amazed.
My non-legal opinion: 1. I call bullshit on your entire post. If you actually got a legal opinion, post some of it. 2. If you want to beat your competitors, do it by building a better product or service, not by being nasty. It is easy to criticize, it is difficult to create. 3. If you don't like how you are treated by Thingiverse, ask for your money back.
My only issue I have ever really had with Thingiverse is that it's a
wholly owned Makerbot Website, in a community where Makerbot produces
are by far a minority.
On Oct 22, 10:29 am, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And what in the world has open source to do with Thingiverse. Each
> design has it's own license. There is no mention of Open Source in the
> entire TOS so by posting "This is not Open Source" all over your
> projects what do you think you are accomplishing?
> I just did a search for theruttmeister on Thingiverse and I see you
> have now removed all your designs from Thingiverse. I would rather
> have that then see Spam as I browse through the pages.
> On Oct 22, 10:08 am, neoteric <perry.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is pure silliness.
> > First, I am absolutely amazed your attorney gave you that kind of a reading
> > on that section of the TOS, which clearly refers to using the site for
> > commercial use.
> > Our IP attorney here, (at my company) says your attorney's analysis is way
> > off the mark. I use an IP attorney quite a bit, and my company
> > specifically does software for the web.
> > The section your attorney is concerned about clearly states it is about the
> > site. Not about the items that are shared on the site.
> > "So it means that the awesome design by a California artist, that I
> > modified and re-uploaded to Thingiverse... I can't use that to show off the
> > capabilities of my 3D printer."
> > That is completely false. I don't know if that is your analysis of what
> > your attorney told you, or if that is what your attorney directly used as
> > an example, but it is completely and utterly ridiculous.
> > That would be like saying that if NBC posted a trailer of one
> > of their shows on Youtube, they would be unable to use it in any
> > of their other venues. That is my attorney's direct comparison.
> > Could you post a little of what your attorney actually wrote about this?
> > That is, did you actually get a legal opinion rendered? I doubt it.
> > You need to get a second legal opinion, although I am suspect you actually
> > got a first opinion.
> > So, I think what you have done here is post a hypocritical and nasty post,
> > with no foundation in any actual legal opinion, while attempting to stir up
> > another mess. By associating your repeated open source comments in your
> > original post, you are actually trying to criticize Makerbot, your
> > competitor, not Thingiverse.
> > If people fall for this, I will be amazed.
> > My non-legal opinion:
> > 1. I call bullshit on your entire post. If you actually got a legal
> > opinion, post some of it.
> > 2. If you want to beat your competitors, do it by building a better product
> > or service, not by being nasty. It is easy to criticize, it is difficult
> > to create.
> > 3. If you don't like how you are treated by Thingiverse, ask for your money
> > back.- Hide quoted text -
Andrew, you're in luck, 3D model support was recently added to media goblin =)
You can go host your own without having to agree to anyone's terms of
service but your own. http://mediagoblin.org/news/3d-support.html
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Spacexula <underwood.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andrew, if your not happy try supporting some of these new Thingiverse
> alterntiaves.
> My only issue I have ever really had with Thingiverse is that it's a
> wholly owned Makerbot Website, in a community where Makerbot produces
> are by far a minority.
> On Oct 22, 10:29 am, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And what in the world has open source to do with Thingiverse. Each
>> design has it's own license. There is no mention of Open Source in the
>> entire TOS so by posting "This is not Open Source" all over your
>> projects what do you think you are accomplishing?
>> I just did a search for theruttmeister on Thingiverse and I see you
>> have now removed all your designs from Thingiverse. I would rather
>> have that then see Spam as I browse through the pages.
>> On Oct 22, 10:08 am, neoteric <perry.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > This is pure silliness.
>> > First, I am absolutely amazed your attorney gave you that kind of a reading
>> > on that section of the TOS, which clearly refers to using the site for
>> > commercial use.
>> > Our IP attorney here, (at my company) says your attorney's analysis is way
>> > off the mark. I use an IP attorney quite a bit, and my company
>> > specifically does software for the web.
>> > The section your attorney is concerned about clearly states it is about the
>> > site. Not about the items that are shared on the site.
>> > "So it means that the awesome design by a California artist, that I
>> > modified and re-uploaded to Thingiverse... I can't use that to show off the
>> > capabilities of my 3D printer."
>> > That is completely false. I don't know if that is your analysis of what
>> > your attorney told you, or if that is what your attorney directly used as
>> > an example, but it is completely and utterly ridiculous.
>> > That would be like saying that if NBC posted a trailer of one
>> > of their shows on Youtube, they would be unable to use it in any
>> > of their other venues. That is my attorney's direct comparison.
>> > Could you post a little of what your attorney actually wrote about this?
>> > That is, did you actually get a legal opinion rendered? I doubt it.
>> > You need to get a second legal opinion, although I am suspect you actually
>> > got a first opinion.
>> > So, I think what you have done here is post a hypocritical and nasty post,
>> > with no foundation in any actual legal opinion, while attempting to stir up
>> > another mess. By associating your repeated open source comments in your
>> > original post, you are actually trying to criticize Makerbot, your
>> > competitor, not Thingiverse.
>> > If people fall for this, I will be amazed.
>> > My non-legal opinion:
>> > 1. I call bullshit on your entire post. If you actually got a legal
>> > opinion, post some of it.
>> > 2. If you want to beat your competitors, do it by building a better product
>> > or service, not by being nasty. It is easy to criticize, it is difficult
>> > to create.
>> > 3. If you don't like how you are treated by Thingiverse, ask for your money
>> > back.- Hide quoted text -
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Andrew - I am not sure if your lawyer has experience with the nuances on copyright law as it relates to sites that host User Generated Content (like Facebook, YouTube and Twitter), it would appear based on his(her) interpretation to you they do not. All of the legalese relating toa user's IP relate to MB's ability to run and promote Thingiverse and host posted IP without violating individual maker's rights. conspiracy theories would say that when you post, you are now giving up all rights to your work. if that were true why would there be a choice of license feature? However, if you feel that somehow Thingiverse is a hostile environment to share your work, it certainly is your coice to leave, as you have stated. Just a shame to see you make a decision based on poor information.
On Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:39:52 PM UTC-7, Andrew Rutter wrote:
> It has been some time coming.
> I started using Thingiverse 3 years ago.. (it will be 4 years this coming > Christmas) shortly after receiving my very first 3D printer (as a kit, yes, > from New York). I posted a few designs, and I like to think that I built > some cool stuff to share with the world. Some of it was fairly complex, and > some of it has lived far longer than I ever though possible. The 15mm > calibration cube I uploaded 3 years ago I saw printed by a brand new reprap > just a few weeks ago.
> And it makes me believe in Open Source
> And I remember when Thingiverse went through its first big re-design. You > know, the one that was designed by someone who had never owned a laptop. > And that was bad. The website was now so unattractive that I used it less. > The few hints of a social environment were blasted away by the big FEATURED > thing. And the important stuff that we all knew needed fixing. Well, thats > still not fixed, even today. > But my usage dropped off. > I designed many cool things though. Some for GE (you might remember those > videos. I've never designed so many planes in such a short period of time > before or since) some for myself. And they mostly ended up on Thingiverse.
> And when I got so frustrated with you know who, that I designed my own 3D > printer (actually, lots of 3D printers) I wanted to host those designs on > Thingiverse.
> Because I believe in Open Source
> And I looked at what other people had built, and they looked at what I had > built... And one day someone looked at a machine I had designed and built > and asked if they could buy one. > And the machine I had built on so much Open Source work grew and > developed. And I took it to MakerFaire, and people actually gave me money > for it. And all of it was possible because of Open Source.
> And I love Open Source.
> And now comes the surprise. > After using Thingiverse for so long, I am -of course- planning on hosting > my designs on Thingiverse. I believe in Open Source remember? And I want > everyone to see what we are doing, and maybe improve it, or hack it. Or > anything. > And then all the Occupy Thingiverse stuff kicks off. People who are > unhappy (some are downright furious) with you know who's decision on > staying Open Source take a second look at the Thingiverse Terms of Use. And > they see that its now something of a legal quagmire for users. Or as > Lawyers call it, boilerplate. You know the kind of thing. You waive your > rights to anything at all, ever, anywhere, for any reason. Now any good > lawyer will tell you that most of that is worthless, its just there to make > it more expensive to sue. But it worries me.
> But I still believe in Open Source.
> But I still get my lawyer to read the Thingiverse Terms of Service. > Because there was never an alternative legal opinion offered in all that. > And the problem that pops up is not what I expected. > See section 2.2 > (a) you shall not license, sell, rent, lease, transfer, assign, > distribute, host, or otherwise commercially exploit the Site or Services;
> What does that mean? > Well, 'otherwise commercially exploit'? That could mean almost anything. > Its certainly a grey area.
> What does that actually mean? > Ok, it means that any commercial entity that uses Thingiverse (especially > if they are hosting their Source code) are open to legal action from > Thingiverse for violating Section 2.2 (a) of the Terms of Use.
> So it means that the awesome design by a California artist, that I > modified and re-uploaded to Thingiverse... I can't use that to show off the > capabilities of my 3D printer. > Regardless of the 'secondary' license.
> It means that I cannot use Thingiverse at all.
> So I'm leaving.
> I have deleted some of my content. I cannot bring myself to delete it all. > There is 3 years of history there, cool stuff I built on my dining room > table, on my desk. Ideas that I was able to share with some of you. I hope > that it inspired you in some small way, so many people posted work that > inspired me.
> I'm leaving to try and find somewhere else to share my designs. I might > have to build it myself. I wish you all well.
Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions, I'll do my best to check them all out.
I realize that some people don't agree with my position. But I don't feel comfortable using Thingiverse so I have decided to stop doing so. I have deleted all the content I had created. Not an easy choice or one I am very happy with.
For me part of the core of Open Source is having an open and clear relationship with your customers. I realize that's hard sometimes.
As I said, we WILL be posting our Source. It is already all packaged and de-branded. We simply need to decide where we wish to publish it.
Perhaps I over shared.
Perhaps I should have simply said that I had fun, I shared, I no long felt comfortable being part of the space. So yes, I'm taking my toys and going home. But its with sadness more than anything. But its also something I feel better for having said. We all own(d) a little bit of Thingiverse, people uploading content made it what it is today. So you'll forgive me if I feel sad.
I must apologize Mark, perhaps I am justified in my feelings, perhaps not. Certainly I have fallen short of the standard I would hope to live up too, both as an Open Source user (and very occasional contributor) and as the representative of a company.
You have certainly shown me the error of my ways, and that as always, its better to keep ones mouth and be though a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
On Open Source.
We will have the cutting files up on our downloads page at some point tonight. And we are uploading our Source to GitHub as I write this. We will also be updating our content to make it clearer the Open Source projects that are part of what we do.
We also have a company rule, that when people point out our screwups, we reward them.
So I'd like to send you a spool of PLA Mark, if thats ok.
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Andrew Rutter > <therutt...@googlemail.com <javascript:>> wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions, I'll do my best to check > > them all out.
> > I realize that some people don't agree with my position. But I don't > feel > > comfortable using Thingiverse so I have decided to stop doing so. I have > > deleted all the content I had created. Not an easy choice or one I am > very > > happy with.
> > For me part of the core of Open Source is having an open and clear > > relationship with your customers. I realize that's hard sometimes.
> > As I said, we WILL be posting our Source. It is already all packaged and > > de-branded. We simply need to decide where we wish to publish it.
> > Perhaps I over shared.
> > Perhaps I should have simply said that I had fun, I shared, I no long > felt > > comfortable being part of the space. So yes, I'm taking my toys and > going > > home. But its with sadness more than anything. But its also something I > feel > > better for having said. We all own(d) a little bit of Thingiverse, > people > > uploading content made it what it is today. > > So you'll forgive me if I feel sad.
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "thingiverse" group. > > To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > thingiverse...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en
I was totally unaware that your design was open source but I've been drooling over the pictures of it. Since it's been offered, is there any way I can get the designs for personal use? I'm hoping to get a completely different 3d printer delivered to me soon, but I think it has many of the components yours already has, and I'd like to try to see how the design works out by comparison if I can find a good price on laser cut acrylic near me.
