Thor versus Superman

[Shag]

Probably more for Terry than anyone else, but enjoy!

http://old-wizard.com/?p=889

The Irredeemable Shag
http://onceuponageek.com

[Terry Morton]

Yay Thor!

 

I am also of the opinion that Thor would beat the snot out of Superman.

 

Here's a Thor fast fact - during Walt Simonson's Thor run, Clark Kent and Lois Lane made an uncredited cameo appearance.

 

[Cary Preston]

Thor was the first comic my mother got for me when I was 3 (to keep me quiet while she shopped). Always been a personal favorite.

And yeah, he'd beat the tar outta Supes.

[Todd Elliott]

Can anyone suggest a good Thor comic or graphic novel?  After reading the Thor vs. Superman thing, he sounds like a cooler character than I had imagined.

[Terry Morton]

I think there's a TPB of a good portion of the Walt Simonson run of Thor, but I'm not sure what it's called.

 

The current run of Thor is relatively new-reader friendly.

 

[Cary Preston]

The TPB covering the story arc in which Hela curses Thor so that he cannot die is the best. It's well done and spills over into the Mutant Massacre and some Avengers storylines; ends with a huge battle between Thor and the Midgard Serpent.

[rave...@aol.com]

The last few issues of the current Thor run are AWESOME
They even reprinted them in a single volume.  Really cool story probably still on the shelf.

---

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

[Cary Preston]

I'll have to look that up; I haven't read Thor in ages.

[Michael Bailey]

Just remember the rule of Thor; in guest appearances he is a bad ass and in his own book he gets smacked around like a little girl.

 

Unlike Superman, who is usually handled poorly in guest appearances and rocks out in his own book and if you don't believe me pick up the last year of ACTION COMICS.

 

http://viewsfromthelongbox.blogspot.com

Hey, I have a Superman blog.

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com

[Terry Morton]

Yeah, but you have to keep in mind that in his own book he's usually fighting a higher class of threat than most superheroes.  He gets smacked around a lot, but it's usually from elder space gods or beings who eat planets for brunch.

 

In spite of this, he usually manages to defeat these more powerful foes and save the day.

 

[Sghoul]

True. And Superman often fights people who don't even have powers let
alone run in his weight class.

--
And when you kill a man, You're a murderer
Kill many, and you're a conqueror
Kill `em all and you're a GOD

[Cary Preston]

Don't forget- Superman is a dick.

[dug b]

Plus, Superman is stupid. 

He once required the help of 2 grade schoolers using a TRS-80 because he was dumb.  Apparently Radio Shack thought people would buy trash-80's if they thought that would make them smarter than supes so they licensed a comic.  TRS-80 with 8k of RAM = smarter than big blue.  I have that comic somewhere around here...

[dug b]

While I have not yet found the Radio Shack/ Superman crossover I did find docemented evidence that Thor could defeat Superman by sneaking up on him while he's being kinky.  The attached picture shows Superman is not a boy scout in any manner other than knot tying.

[Michael Bailey]

I think we can all agree that the Radio Shack comics should never be considered to be in continuity.

 

Superman oftens fights people in his own weight class.  Just because the movies have him going up against Lex Luthor all of the time doesn't mean that's the way it goes in the comics.  And even when he does fight people like Luthor or even like the Toyman there is a certain threat level caused by the devices those villains create.  Thor comes from mythology therefore his villains are going to be primarily from that source, so yes, they are going to be tougher to beat.  Superman really comes from science fiction and the pulps where the villains are, more often than not, mad scientists who create machines of destructive proportions.  Aside from that in the past few years I can remember one or two villains that were normal.  Mostly it was Phantom Zone villains, Kryptonite men and Bizarros.

[Cary Preston]

There is no Norse Kryptonite. Argument over.

[sghoul]

Personally I don't like either character. Superman is too powerful
and Thor just looks stupid for a Norse God (and is too powerful).

> --
> This post/e-mail was written by Michael Bailey, Superman Apologist
>
> Hey, I have a podcast

[Ronald Methvin]

Hopefully, the Thor movie won't frak up the Avengers movie.  It's supposed to be mostly in Asguard, so more of a 300/Beowulf/Clash of the Titans thing, which is definitely the way go to keep it from being too cheesy.  Thor would work much better as a supporting character in the modern world than as the lead. --- On Thu, 7/17/08, sghoul <sgh...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sghoul <sgh...@gmail.com> Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Thor versus Superman

[sghoul]

And I really hope that don't use the Ultimate Thor. That hippie can
get bent.

[Terry Morton]

If you count Radio Shack ads, you have to count Hostess ads, and that's not good for any character.

 

I'd argue that most of Superman's fights are with enemies that are nowhere near as powerful as he is.  Superman has powerful enemies (Bizarro, Doomsday, evil Kryptonians, etc.), but the majority of his fights are usually with normal humans or not-Superman-level superhumans.

 

Thor, on the other hand, almost exclusively faces foes who are, at least, as powerful as he or stronger, and, more often than not, he defeats them. I've seen Thor fight multiple Storm Giants, Heralds of Galactus, Celestials, living planets, gods, and even Galactus himself.

A normal day for Superman consists of writing articles for the Daily Planet and stopping normal criminals from committing robberies.  A normal day for Thor consists of slaying dragons, fighting Storm Giants, traveling to other dimensions, and stopping the destruction of planets by beings who eat them for meals.

 

I like both Thor and Superman, but there's no comparison in the power level of their respective rogue's galleries.  Superman has some enemies in his weight class, while Thor's enemies are almost always more powerful than he is.


 

[Ronald Methvin]

Given that Supes is definitely 'good' enough to hold the Mjolinor (sp.), could he take it to give Thor a Kryptorian beatdown or at least keep it away from him for 60 seconds (in some storylines) causing him, Thor, to revert to crip, or would Supes weakness to magic prevent that?  Basically, can Supes wield magic objects?  Has he ever used Diana's magic lasso?   --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Cary Preston <cwpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Cary Preston <cwpr...@gmail.com> Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Thor versus Superman

[Todd Elliott]

Oh, you know they've used the lasso on each other.  Tell me the truth baby!  Their safe word is "by the gods."

[Terry Morton]

I do not buy that Superman can wield Mjolnir.  Wielding his hammer isn't about being "good" - it's about being "worthy."

 

Do you think that an immortal race of Viking warrior gods would find Superman to be worthy of wielding such a weapon?  It's their standard of worthiness that affects the enchantment.

 

Superman should be able to use magic objects just fine.  It's just that his super-durability doesn't give him any special defenses against magic.

 

[Sghoul]

The problem is that when I HAVE seen Thor 9rarely read marvel) he doesn't
seem worth of the true Norse gods anyway. Heck, he doesn't even LOOK like
Thor should look. So I think 'worthy' is subjective.

That said, no I don't think Superman as he is sterotypically written could
wield the hammer. I do think Wonder Woman could.

[Terry Morton]

Read more Thor.  He's got no problem with offing an enemy.  Thor, as depicted in Avengers, tones it down when he's with his friends.

 

I also think that Wonder Woman would be considered worthy.  Of course, I'm not referring to the killing-Max-Lord-was-the-worst-thing-I've-ever-done-pussification of Wonder Woman.

 

[Ronald Methvin]

Kind of like Capt. America - a guy who killed hundreds if not thousands of nazis.  Now (until his current death) he gets conflicted about beheading a vampire.   And "pussification of Wonder Woman" is a great line. --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Terry Morton <terry...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Terry Morton <terry...@gmail.com> Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Thor versus Superman To: theuni...@googlegroups.com

[Ronald Methvin]

Well, there's "immortal race of Viking warrior gods" and then there's "Marvel's immortal race of Viking warrior gods".  Given the later, yeah, I think he is worthy.  Superman is the epitamy of virtue and selflessness (other than him having "a day job" and not being Supes and saving the world 24/7).  Just because he isn't a drinking killing warrior type wouldn't disqualify him from wielding the hammer.  I don't think any of the Warriors 3 could wield it.  Neither could Batman, the Punisher, or even Spider-Man.   Other than Cap and Beta Ray Bill, has anyone else been able to pick it up?  I'm pretty sure the Thing was able to.  The Hulk caught it though sheer power, but even then I think it returned back to Thor.  Had it been on the ground, he wouldn't have been able to.

--- On Thu, 7/17/08, Terry Morton <terry...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Cary Preston]

Captain America did.

[Cary Preston]

Whoops, wrote that before I read the rest of the email. Im sure there's at least one more character out there that did for a short time...

[Michael Bailey]

Sadly Superman has a very piss poor rogues gallery.

 

And I would consider Kryptonite to be kind of like not holding the hammer for sixty seconds and becoming human, though that had been done away with decades ago.

 

Still.

 

[Cary Preston]

As you said, that was only the Donald Blake verison of Thor (although they may have brought it back at some point, I stopped collecting that title years ago) whereas there is no incarnation of Superman that doesn't have a vulnerability to kryptonite, and in later incarnations magic. If Wonder Woman's sword (in Kingdom Come) can cut him as easily as a normal blade would cut a human, imagine what Mjolnir weilded by a god wearing a magical artifact (belt of strength) boosting his already superhuman strength would do?

On 7/17/08, Michael Bailey <superma...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Terry Morton]

Here's the short list of the people who have picked up Mjolnir.

 

Beta Ray Bill

Captain America

Eric Masterson

Dargo (Thor worshipper from an alternate future)

Magni (Thor's son in an alternate future)

 

Both Wonder Woman and Superman have picked it up in Marvel vs. DC and Avengers/JLA respectively, but I don't count crossover stories.

 

"Marvel's immortal race of Viking warrior gods" isn't much different from "immortal race of Viking warrior gods" in actual execution.  While most Thor stories don't glorify the fact that Thor sometimes kills his foes, he still sometimes kills his foes and shows no remorse about it.

 

I'm also not trying to say that being willing to kill your foes is somehow the only aspect of being worthy to wield Mjolnir, but I don't think that someone so repulsed by the idea of killing a foe no matter the situation (like the modern version of Superman) would be considered worthy of Mjolnir.  By your definition, Pureheart the Care Bear Cousin could wield Mjolnir because he's really nice and selfless - but there's more to it than happy feelings.  You still have to be a worthy warrior, and I honestly don't think that Superman would be considered enough of a warrior to wield Mjolnir.  He's got the noble qualities in spades, but he has virtually no warrior instinct.  He's almost too nice when he fights his foes - Thor's not (neither are Captain America or Beta Ray Bill for that matter).

 

[Terry Morton]

Donald Blake is currently a part of Thor.  However, the old 60 second rule hasn't been addressed.  I doubt it's in effect anymore since Thor has taken Odin's place as head of the Asgardians.

 

In any case, I don't think it would matter.  The Incredible Hulk can't even keep Thor from his hammer; so, I doubt Superman could.

 

[sghoul]

Here's the issue with all of this: these characters change and break
the rules all the time. There is no written lexicon that determines
exactly how much they lift, how tough they are, how fast, etc. It is
all determined by the writer. If the writer decides that Superman can
beat Thor, he can. Marvel universe would just say that Hulk and Thor
can lift "Over 100 tons". Well, that tells me jack all. Quite a few
things are over 100 tons...like the planet for instance.

When I write and create Sci-Fi/fantasy characters, I pretty much have
a character sheet in my head. I know what they can and can't do.
Now, that doesn't mean they can't grow over time. Learn new tricks,
spells, skills, or mutate. But it needs to make sense. But even if
they grow, I try not to allow them to do things they shouldn't or
forget things they can do so they lose. But comics lame it up quite a
bit. Flash can go faster than light? Why the heck is there like ANY
crime? The second a bank alarm sounds the crooks should be in jail.
Thor's hammer can make portals to other worlds, sure. I don't
remember the god's of myth building that in, but whatever. It'll let
Thor get by some villian or plot point later.

[Ronald Methvin]

Pureheart, Son of Odin.  I'd read that. "Thou would'st steal our rainbow, Dark Heart?  I say thee, nay!"

[Terry Morton]

Well, sure, any medium where multiple writers handle the same character is going to have things like that.  The key with a discussion like this is to look at the whole of the character to determine what's consistent and what's not.

 

It's kind of like when Spider-Man beat up Firelord or when the Hulk couldn't escape from a python wrapping around him.  It happened in a comic, but it's not consistent with the history of any of the characters involved; so, I just ignore it.

 

No written lexicon needed.

 

[sgh...@gmail.com]

How do you decide this? From what I understand prior to secret wars, there is no way hulk could hold up a mountain range. But now he is considered to pretty much have infinite strength relative to his anger.

I would also say that peter parker telling the world his real identity or making a deal with the devil which would make him lose MJ are pretty out of character but you can't really ignore them right now.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

[Ronald Methvin]

Dude, the Hulk's mantra has always been, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets."  Plus the Hulk mutates a lot; so, his holding up the montain wasn't out of character.   And PP doing /anything/ to save his aunt is totally in character, especially if it makes him miserable in the process - moronic, yes, but that's part of his character, too.   As for telling his secret ID, um, skrulls . . .   (and Quesada is a douche - completely in character for him) --- On Thu, 7/17/08, sgh...@gmail.com <sgh...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sgh...@gmail.com <sgh...@gmail.com> Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Thor versus Superman To: theuni...@googlegroups.com

[Terry Morton]

The Hulk getting stronger because of his anger has been a part of the character for a really long time.  The Hulk's consistently been portrayed as, pretty much, the physically strongest character in the Marvel universe as early as Avengers #1 (maybe even earlier but that's an easy reference point).

 

Spider-Man making a deal with the devil or revealing his identity to the world is not consistent with the character.  You can't ignore them currently, but in a few years I'm sure that it'll just be swept under the rug of suck.

 

There's not a science to it.  It's just something many readers do after reading a character for a long time.

 

I, pretty much, do the same thing with any character that I feel I "know."

 

[Ronald Methvin]

You know how else has "held Thor's hammer"?   . . . Todd's mom.

[Todd Elliott]

Nice.  Nice, a beautiful discussion about superpowers and you spoil it with a Mom joke.  I hate you Ron.

I'm not too jazzed about the Hulk having infinite strength thing.  I've always liked the character, but for his internal or external or duality conflict stuff going on.  Of course, Hulk smashing is good to.

[Jason Service]

or you go Serv and dump the whole thing as utter bullshit that can not EVER be kept straight since today Hulk is Green but new writer comes on and wants Hulk to be Red or Blue or fucking rainbow striped and only his Green parts are strong, while his purple parts are invisible, etc and then new NEW writer comes along and sweeps rainbow Hulk under the rug for old school Grey Hulk, but then New new NEW writer (who is actyally old writer back) comes and sweeps all the grey Hulk shit out and makes him Green agin...and he dies, but comes back to life and is dumb as Hulk, and then has Bruce Banners brain as Hulk...

 

And don't even get me started on the X-Men.

 

[Terry Morton]

Well, it's not like he has infinite strength all the time or something.  He gets stronger the angrier he gets.  That's not the only layer of the character. :)

[Terry Morton]

Yeah, you could do that too.

 

;)

 

[Ronald Methvin]

On his new stat sheet, just to make Todd happy, the Hulk's strength will be infinity -1.  Coincidentally, the same number of times Todd's mom has (fill-in-the-blank). --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Todd Elliott <thel...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Todd Elliott <thel...@gmail.com> Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Thor versus Superman To: theuni...@googlegroups.com

[sgh...@gmail.com]

Been in a donkey show?

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

---

From: Ronald Methvin <rwm...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: <theuni...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Thor versus Superman

[Terry Morton]

I actually like Superman's rogues gallery, at least, his classic one.  Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Bizarro, Mongul, and Phantom Zone Kryptonians are all interesting to me.

 

Toyman, not so much...

 

On 7/17/08, Michael Bailey <superma...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Michael Bailey]

Did you read the latest ACTION that showcased him?

Hey, I have a podcast

[Terry Morton]

Yes, it was a great issue.

[sh...@onceuponageek.com]

That Toyman story in Action was great!  A pretty big retcon, but was good.  In hindsight, there are echos of that Toyman story going on in the Braniac story (the drones aspect).

 

The Irredeemable Shag

http://onceuponageek.com

 

Captain America did.

http://viewsfromthelongbox.blogspot.com/

Hey, I have a Superman blog.

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/

 

http://viewsfromthelongbox.blogspot.com/

Hey, I have a Superman blog.

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/