Some actual data on Yamaha Internal vs External Clocks

[Andy Leviss]

I regularly read Dave Rat's blog (for those who don't know him, Dave
is the owner of Rat Sound out in CA, designer of the MicroWedge and
the Rat Sniffer cable tester, and FOH for the Red Hot Chili Peppers,
among others, as well as just generally one of the smartest guys out
there mixing rock I've come across). Today, he posted about their
shop's tests to see what, if anything, is behind the popular belief
that Yamaha consoles sound better on external clocks.

http://ratsound.com/cblog/archives/326-Seeing-Things-As-They-Really-Are.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/ratM7CL

For the short version, they could not detect an audible difference,
BUT they did find, hooking clock gens up to a scope, that the Yamaha
had the ugliest clock signal (lots of smear) of anything they could
get their hands on, including "the oldest 'least likely to have a
decent word clock' piece of gear we can find at the shop, a Tascam
DA98 digital recorder."

He admits that it's anything but conclusive, or super scientific, but
it's the closest I've seen yet, and certainly interesting!

--A

[Dave Stevens]

An M7CL certainly isn't a PM5D.   The PM5D to me sounds better at 96k than 48k, even using the internal clock.  I've known and worked with Ratty for the better part of 30 years though I don't always agree with his observations.  I wouldn't call this actual data other than it shows a poor clock on a sub US$20k desk.  The real test, which I did during my time at the water show down the street, is to measure the jitter of the clocks.  We measured the stock clock of a PM1D driving the surface subsystem, engines, frames, etc to that of our clock network at the time which was a Rosendahl Nano clock.  A huge difference, on the order of 4 to 5 times greater with the onboard clock.  Basic sampling mechanics, the more consistent and stable clock, (ie low jitter and consistent) the more consistent the samples taken as well as better signal/noise and dynamic range.  Pohlmann's got a good explaination in his book.

Dave

[Brad]

At the recent Professional Development Workshop at USITT in Cincy, Jim
VanBergen and Drew Dalzell were teaching a class on digital consoles
and did a side-by-side with external vs internal clocks on a PM5D. The
difference was pretty significant.
The consensus in the room was that the 5D @ 96K internal did not sound
as good as it did with an external clock at 44.1k.
Jim also pointed out that the 5D has an excess of 200 internal
clocks!
I was really surprised by the difference. I ordered external clocks
before I left Cincy.
Peace
Brad Berridge

On Mar 26, 4:24 am, "Dave Stevens" <dstev...@roaddog.com> wrote:
> An M7CL certainly isn't a PM5D.   The PM5D to me sounds better at 96k than 48k, even using the internal clock.  I've known and worked with Ratty for the better part of 30 years though I don't always agree with his observations.  I wouldn't call this actual data other than it shows a poor clock on a sub US$20k desk.  The real test, which I did during my time at the water show down the street, is to measure the jitter of the clocks.  We measured the stock clock of a PM1D driving the surface subsystem, engines, frames, etc to that of our clock network at the time which was a Rosendahl Nano clock.  A huge difference, on the order of 4 to 5 times greater with the onboard clock.  Basic sampling mechanics, the more consistent and stable clock, (ie low jitter and consistent) the more consistent the samples taken as well as better signal/noise and dynamic range.  Pohlmann's got a good explaination in his book.

> Dave-------- Original Message --------

> Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Some actual data on Yamaha Internal vs
> External Clocks
> From: Andy Leviss <An...@DucksEchoSound.com>
> Date: Wed, March 25, 2009 9:33 pm
> To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> I regularly read Dave Rat's blog (for those who don't know him, Dave
> is the owner of Rat Sound out in CA, designer of the MicroWedge and
> the Rat Sniffer cable tester, and FOH for the Red Hot Chili Peppers,
> among others, as well as just generally one of the smartest guys out
> there mixing rock I've come across). Today, he posted about their
> shop's tests to see what, if anything, is behind the popular belief
> that Yamaha consoles sound better on external clocks.http://ratsound.com/cblog/archives/326-Seeing-Things-As-They-Really-Are.html

> orhttp://tinyurl.com/ratM7CL

[JvB]

Brad, thanks for the plug.

Andy, I think you'd be wise to listen to a decent console at various
sample rates, with and without external clocking. While I agree with
Dave's assessment that the Yamaha clock is less than ideal, I'm
shocked at his conclusion which seems to summarize that the Yamaha
M7CL clocks are poor yet does not champion external clocking on those
desks.

Personally, I have found that listeners-not sound professionals with
decades of experience- DO notice significant improvement in sound
quality when using an external clock.

I always suggest that people test it themselves on Yamaha consoles, by
listening to a dynamic piece of music with a full bandwidth, and most
people are astonished at the difference in internal clock speeds and
again at using an external clock.

JvB

Jim vanBergen
vanBer...@gmail.com
917-826-1626 Mobile

[Andy Leviss]

Hey Jim and Dave,
Yes, absolutely agreed that an M7 is not by any means a 5D, and I
didn't at all mean to imply anything else. My interest in the article
was more in the graphic evidence of how horribly messy the M7's clock
is, not in the fact that a few rock and roll guys couldn't hear the
difference in a very unscientific listening test :-) I just mentioned
that they didn't feel they noticed a difference for completeness in
summarizing his post.

My point wasn't to question those who have stated they hear a
difference, but to offer the actual evidence of why. It unfortunately
happens that the guy who investigated and posted that evidence didn't
hear the difference, but A)that's a bunch of guys who've been mixing
loud rock for years, and B)it's an M7.

I would love to see scopes of the rest of the Yamaha line, now,
however...this certainly piqued my interest to see just how crappy the
M7's was, and I'm curious how it translates. But, agreed, the M7 is
definitely my least favorite of any of the current Yamaha line in
terms of sound, particularly on an internal clock.

--A

[Arthur Skudra]

I see mention of the Big Ben, Antelope, and the Rosendahl word clocks, are there any other less expensive options out there that are worth consideration that would be an improvement over the M7CL's internal word clock?  I have a system under consideration that has a Whirlwind E-Snake, a M7CL, and a 02R96.

Arthur

[JvB]

Black Lion and ART both make much less expensive word clocks. I have
not used them, but know people who do!

JvB

Jim vanBergen
vanBer...@gmail.com
917-826-1626 Mobile

[Nick Kourtides]

I'll chime in here,

Big Ben's are not that expensive for what they actually do: 6 WC
outputs, SPDIF and AES clock i/o, as well as the ability to x2 or /2
the clock to outputs 5 and 6. This is super handy for 48khz ADAT
lightpipe connections to Yamaha consoles running at 96khz. That's a
lot for $1200.

I have Black Lion's modified clock and mic pres in my Digi 002R, and
it is a substantial improvement. I can only imagine that their stand-
alone clock is also superb.

Nick

[Arthur Skudra]

I took a look at the ART SyncGen, at $130 I'm almost afraid to use it, but the Black Lion seems reasonably priced for a no-frills word clock generator (really I don't need anything more than three bnc outs).  Would the ART really represent an improvement on the internal WC of the M7CL?

Arthur

[JvB]

Arthur, I have not tried the lower-end clocks, but it would not be hard to try one out, put it on a scope, and do and A/B test. I can heartily endorse the Big Ben, Antelope, Digidesigns sync I/O, and the word clock generator on the SR15 Destripalyzer. 

JvB

Jim vanBergen

vanBer...@gmail.com

917-826-1626 Mobile

[R. Ingram]

Hi All,

So, I've got a general question about using WC.  Are most of you using external clocks in most of your systems?  I always sync clocks when I know I've got a couple of pieces of digital gear, but generally don't clock every system I use (which would be hard since I'm almost always using someone else's gear or system) only when I know I have to sync something like console to pro tools, or console to processor.  Maybe I've been lucky so far in not clocking most of the systems I use but I haven't run into a problem so far.. knock on wood.  Other than syncing the sample rate, what other benefits could I get from clocking things?

Rob


http://groups.google.com/group/theatre-sound-list/browse_thread/thread/012e01f71471f0ec/14a498ab78f4b32b?show_docid=14a498ab78f4b32b

--

Robert Ingram

www.rdingram.info

R...@rdingram.info

RI1...@aol.com

443.226.0182

--

Robert Ingram

www.rdingram.info

R...@rdingram.info

RI1...@aol.com

443.226.0182