ban on old computers

[Rehan Allah Wala]

Under a Meeting with LCCI and the President of Pakistan, a ban on used computers is requested.

This is probably for the new computer importer's as they are having problem selling new computers, due to the used computers being so cheap in the market.

I have been a pro used computer person since i think 1989 when Computer Society President Shahzad Ali Rashid was president.

I was very young, and wrote many times to him to get the ban on the old computers off.

Finally ( by some miracle) the ban was lifted, and today Pakistan lead's in the used computers pricing.

Not to mention that the industry has grown so much, that the Computer Market in Malaysia for used computers is also now lead by Pakistani Traders.

Under No Circumstances should the ban be imposed, as there is no way a common man can buy a new computer, but today a common man can buy a pentium 3 , with a monitor, good enough to watch a movie, learn basic language, and do basic stuff from it for a mere 3500 rupees.

and there is NO WAY a new computer trader can even come close to that price.

Computer penetration in Pakistan has far exceeded and far more then any of our same GDP Neighbor's and the used computers are the only reason for it.

We should NOT let any one convince ANYONE to put this ban, and try to facilitate the used computer vendor as much as we can, so more and more computers are brought to this country and computer penetration is increased.

I for one give all my zakaat even for buying used computers, and the computers go to people who work in our factory and home workers, even if they use it for watching cartoon, they still need to learn how to use the computer before they can do that, and that is the first step towards learning how to use it.

I hope that others beside me will try to take a strong , very very strong stand on this one and again not let benfit of the few lead to loss of the most.

Rehan

Rehan Ahmed AllahWala

President & CEO - Super Technologies Inc.

http://www.supertec.com/ - Internet Telephony Solutions

Don't Remember Me ? Visit http://www.Rehan.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

By Gandhi.

"Think Smart, Act Fast, Learn from Others, Be Successfull"

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[Fawad Niazi]

I also heard the voices for ban on used Monitors; not on used computers on the plea that old CRT monitors are power hungry and electronic scrap coming into pakistan. Moreover, they were saying that LCD televisions are coming in under the cover of used monitors . Same CRT monitors can also be converted into TV through a normal device hurting local television manufacturers.

 

Whats your point view on that.

 

Regards,

 

Fawad

 

 

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[Sameer Bokhari]

The alarming thing that you haven't mentioned in the post is that this market is indirectly encouraging developed countries to dump their toxic e waste into countries where environment laws are not as stringent, like in the case of Pakistan. The consequences of which can be disastrous.

http://bit.ly/tEKjL


But rather than putting a ban on import of used computers some filtering criteria should be put into place to keep a check on this. which off course is practically impossible given the illegal trade channels being used currently.

[Jamal Shamsi]

Ban on Import of CRT Monitors only is already in place,. 

 

Import duty on USED computers, approx 5% of C&F value of the container value plus the VAT ( sales tax ) of 18% is already under discussion and MAY be enforced in next budget. FY 2010 - 2011,.

 

Sameer - what is population ratio of Pakistan having access to Drinking water, let alone we try to support ban on cheap technology for street smart people., be brave address the core issues of drinking water, basic health, basic education before talking about Toxic & non-toxic stuff,

 

where does the smoke of 'OUR' power generators land, is that smoke healthy and NON-Toxic...!..  

 

--

[Sameer Bokhari]

IMHO.

a. i never said cheap technology or used computers should be banned.
b. as there is a difference between smoke generated from "our" generators and "their" generators.  it is for "our" e waste and "their" e waste. whether toxic or not.
c. and for all benchmarking purposes i don't prefer comparing anything with the worse. if you are looking for ratios for stuff like population ratio of pakistan have access to drinking water etc, i dont have the figures, but i know they are the worst, you can google or try fbs site for the said purpose.
d. since you have mentioned the import duty on used computers, can you please share some statistics on its impact on the market.?? atleast how much of this stuff is imported through legal channels?

Thanks.

[Badar Khushnood]

+1 to Jamal's point of view

I'm kind of a silent observer but this topic really dragged me to share my thoughts. Thanks Rehan for bringing this up!

I think ban on used technology/hardware is motivated by 'well-known' brands who have been severely hit in terms of sales target achievement. A very passive (and in-direct) media campaign is also being carried out by the same group of vendors/brands.

Does anybody have any actual numbers (based on primary research) as to how many imported-used-computers have actually been dumped causing environmental damage within Pakistan and what is the proportion of that damage versus other activities e.g. traffic smoke or industrial waste from leather tanneries, etc?

Secondly, has anybody done a study of how much value-addition in terms of imparting knowledge, social service (i.e. connectivity with family/friends abroad via online social networks), etc. one used-computer adds to a lower-income family? Similarly, how much value-addition in terms of business efficiency & productivity enhancement does one used-laptop add to a small business who's striving to sustain in our current economic & social scenario? I'm sure the figures would be staggeringly eye-opening and the (environmental) cost-benefit analysis would show how insignificant the negatives are of the used-hardware for a developing country like Pakistan.

Rgds,

-B

[Adnan Zafar Khawaja]

What Badar has highlighted is an interesting analytical case building in favor of low cost PCs in Pakistan. Since many like me don't see any negatives of used / low cost computers in the country, I feel it is incumbent on those proposing/ devising a policy change to present a case justifying why they are doing so if it is for reasons other than to provide commercial gains to private organizations. If there is no such case then even thinking about imposing a ban is ridiculous and its imposition will be an infringement on the rights of the people to have access to low cost (if not free) IT resources.

Thanks,
Adnan

[Ashar Iqbal]

Agree with Badar. This is a very short sighted, selfish attempt by the brands.

If you are going to take into account the toxic leftovers from used PCs then the toxic left overs from new PCs is not going to be much less.

Are the branded PC importers doing anything to dispose of their products safely after end of life?

Ashar

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Badar Khushnood <badar.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Faried Nawaz]

Ashar Iqbal <s.asha...@gmail.com> writes:

> If you are going to take into account the toxic leftovers from used PCs then
> the toxic left overs from new PCs is not going to be much less.

Actually, it is. Because of new regulations (especially in Europe),
many companies have cut down or nearly eliminated the amount of lead,
mercury, cadmium, chromium, and brominated flame retardants (in plastic)
in their products. This applies to all kinds of products -- computers,
cell phones, consumer electronics, etc.

Faried.
--
(> (length "eclipse") (length "emacs")) => T

[Rehan Allah Wala]

Dear Sameer,

I think 100% of the old computers are brought in via normal channel, It is not worth for a
khaipya to import via baggage, used computers.

The new computers some times DO come via illegal channels.

REhan

>
> IMHO.
>
> a. i never said cheap technology or used computers should be banned.
> b. as there is a difference between smoke generated from "our" generators and "their" generators. it is
> for "our" e waste and "their" e waste. whether toxic or not.
> c. and for all benchmarking purposes i don't prefer comparing anything with the worse. if you are looking
> for ratios for stuff like population ratio of pakistan have access to drinking water etc, i dont have the
> figures, but i know they are the worst, you can google or try fbs site for the said purpose.
> d. since you have mentioned the import duty on used computers, can you please share some statistics on
> its impact on the market.?? atleast how much of this stuff is imported through legal channels?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> On 04-Mar-10 11:18 AM, Jamal Shamsi wrote:

> Ban on Import of CRT Monitors only isalready in place,.

>
> Import duty on USED computers, approx 5% of C&F value of the container value plus the VAT ( sales
> tax ) of 18% is already under discussion and MAY be enforced in next budget. FY 2010 - 2011,.
>
> Sameer - what is population ratio of Pakistan having access to Drinking water, let alone we try to
> support ban on cheap technology for street smart people., be brave address the core issues of

> drinking water, basic health,basic education before talking about Toxic & non-toxic stuff,

[Fouad Bajwa]

My two cents to this discussion related to ICT equipment import regulations:

ICT regulations are not a single party choice. It involves us, the
individuals/Civil Society/Community Groups, the Private Sector and the
Government. This is one thing that has to be changed and improved in
this region is that regulation is not only a single party governance
model. Governance is a model whereby all stakeholders of society
participate in the governance and regulatory processes.

Though the import of second hand computers have benefited individuals
across the country as portrayed in this discussion, it has also
benefited schools, universities, hospitals, small and medium
enterprise, government departments that do not have funding or ICT
equipment purchase budgets etc.

This issue of Ban on computers is a macro issue that involves right
now two parties, the govt and the private sector but not the community
at-large. The regulations are attempted so that a certain group of
people or brands can benefit from the govt but these regulation
requests are not released to the public for their input that includes
Environmental Organizations for proof of environmental damage,
authentic research data and sources, etc. Let me share a small example
where things go wrong with this two party decision making: Earlier by
the PTA, the govt and private sector practised this in the previous
regime Cellular Towers were even allowed to be installed in the lawns
and backyards of densely populated town houses. I still have one right
in front of my bedroom window in the neighbour's lawn where it has a
generator running continuously and vibrates the ground and other
implications are yet to be witnessed, usually health ones that are
denied by PTA and the Telecom Operators. I as a stakeholder of my
community have no right or say over these aggressions by the other two
parties.

Its high time that we noticed that the consumers had some rights and
says in such ICT regulations. All these super taxing and branded
monopolies shouldn't have been there in the first place if the
regulation and policy processes were multistakeholder driven between
all three parties: Society, Economy and Regulation.

I also second what Faisal has shared, Europe definitely has
regulations in place with the participation of its people and its
private sector such reforms where many companies have cut down or

nearly eliminated the amount of lead, mercury, cadmium, chromium, and
brominated flame retardants (in plastic) in their products. This
applies to all kinds of products -- computers,

cell phones, consumer electronics, etc. but EU has a very strong
buying power and far more opportunities and lesser population than
Pakistan.

We have a slowly decaying middle class in Pakistan that is falling
towards either of the poles of poverty or richness. Such regulations
only enable a certain rich and monopolistic class to super impose
invalid import regulations and enforces on the consumer class to have
no choice. Consumerism is usually promoted by the capitalists as a
choice but here the system is failing to accept its own offering of
choice to the consumer.

When is the consumer going to actually realise his/her rights and
speak up for regulations that choke him/her in the current economic
conditions. The consumers should make the choice whether they want
second hand equipment or not!

--
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa

[Afzal Anwar]

Sorry state has always been the execution of policy before proper ground base and alternative. They should first make the new computer market at least come close to the buying power of the all and sundry and then think about limiting the imports of OLD computers based on certain junk level criteria's. Something like Mango PC but on the subsidized rate.

Same thing happened with the Automobile industry, they put the ban on the import of vehicles more than 2 years old along with the crazy increase in import tax reasoning the nourishment of local car industry. In turn the local industry took advantage of the policy and raised their prices tenfold. 

Government will get their peanut butter from the local distributors and ultimately it will all fall on the ever burdening AWAM. 

I Strongly vote against the notion!

-- 
Afzal Anwar

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Rehan Allah Wala <re...@supertec.com> wrote:

[Adnan]

I would like to add my two cents on the subject:

I had the opportunity to do research work with MIT and University of
Sao Paulo (Brazil) on E-Waste management in 2009. It was alarming to
understand to impact of E-Waste on environment. Not much research has
been done locally to answer the questions posed on this thread. Only
published numbers available regarding Pakistan was a study done by
Basel Action Network and it listed Pakistan amongst the top three
dumping grounds for electronic waste ! Subsequently, Green Peace has
reports on the toxic content of e-waste impacting the environment of
Lyari in Karachi.

I am not in favour of a ban on second hand computers but at the same
time I do not want us to be a dumping ground. Obsolete PCs are not
shipped to developing countries for the love of people but because it
is cheaper to ship it than to recycle it there. So, on the receiving
end we should also look what we are getting into.

Import second hand PCs but have an infrastructure to recycle them at
the end of life. CRT monitors can be converted in to thermal
insulation material (something a hot climate country like ours can
benefit a lot). Companies / Individuals who donate old PC to NGOs/
Charity do a very noble job. But who is responsible at the end of
life ? This toxic waste is going to worsen our drinking water problem
as well top soil for agriculture.

Problem of E-waste is not limited to ‘hand-me-down’ old machines. It
is with the new items as well. Take the example of AA/AAA cells.
Mercury content in these cells is 20times more than the recommended
level. At end of life we throw them in dustbin and then end up in a
landfill. Should we let these Rs.5 cells come in to run toys for few
days but then spoil the environment for generations ? I can go on and
a make a case for why the same manufacturers should be forced to sell
‘green’ new PC instead of the ones being imported currently.

So, in my humble opinion, the problem of electronic waste impacting
our environment is serious. It does call for action – both from
legislation as well as consumer side. I hope the discussion on the
subject will be generate some inertia to look at the problem in
totality and take actions.

Thanks and regards,
Adnan

> > >    http://www.supertec.com/- Internet Telephony Solutions
>
> > >     Don't Remember Me ? Visithttp://www.Rehan.com

>
> > >     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >     "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you,
> > then
> > >     you win."
> > >     By Gandhi.
> > >     "Think Smart, Act Fast, Learn from Others, Be Successfull"
>

> > >     Are you on Facebook ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI0tmktiLd0

>
> > >     --
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> >http://groups.google.com/group/telecom-grid-
> > >     pakistan
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>
> > Rehan Ahmed AllahWala
> > President & CEO - Super Technologies Inc.
>

> >http://www.supertec.com/- Internet Telephony Solutions
>
> > Don't Remember Me ? Visithttp://www.Rehan.com

>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
> > you win."
> > By Gandhi.
> > "Think Smart, Act Fast, Learn from Others, Be Successfull"
>

> > Are you on Facebook ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI0tmktiLd0

>
> > --
> > Manage your subscription:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/telecom-grid-pakistan

> > Browse and populate the community wiki at:http://wiki.telecompk.net- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Rehan Allah Wala]

Dear Adnan,

For our knowledge's sake, can you share the link to that report.

2. In a used piii computer, and a new computer, which component's are there, that are not
recycleable in Pakistan?

Because as far as i can see, most of the component's are

a. Plastic
b. Metal
c. Mother Boards.

I know for a fact that PII 's in Pakistan and even PIII are used to melt, rather then sold as
computers for last many years.

I know for a fact' that the PCB's are used to extract gold plating from them and then used to
convert into some kind of sheet's as they are fibreglass.

Laptop Battries, At this time we do NOT have many laptops beeing imported, but between
new and used one's whats the difference in the cadmium used?

Again this is for my and other's Knowdledge.

I will be tagging Kumi Naidu, a Director at greenpeace to my note on facebook and posting
this on there also.

Do follow it and comment on it also.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/rehan-allahwala/ban-on-used-computer-import-in-
pakistan/339386878493

Rehan

> our environment is serious. It does call for action - both from

http://www.supertec.com/ - Internet Telephony Solutions

Don't Remember Me ? Visit http://www.Rehan.com

[Sameer Bokhari]

Some secondary data:

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/toxics/electronics/where-does-e-waste-end-up

http://www.dawn.com/2008/02/22/local11.htm

� E-waste is routinely exported by developed countries to developing ones, often in violation of the international law. Inspections of 18 European seaports in 2005 found as much as 47 percent of waste destined for export, including e-waste, was illegal.
�

�