DNDRC and PKNIC Disputes

[imtiaz]

I just wonder out of my curiosity that the controversial organization
DNDRC still dealing with the pknic disputes.

1. I am still not clear who and under what law created this
organization?


2. The name DNDRC itself is an example of typo-squatting mimicking
ADNDRC and is not recognized by any independent international
organization.

3. Is this a profit base or non-profit organization? Where the all
profit goes?

4. If somebody do not trust this organization what are the alternate
options?

5. What are its by laws of DNDRC and governing structure? Is this a
one man show?

With the growth of .PK domains we need an independent, unbiased,
community supported , non-profit organization recognized by the
International bodies to deal with .PK disputes.


We assume that .PK is Pakistani asset and we have every right to ask
questions and explanations about this public asset so please answer
these question as it will help to complete my article before
publication to news papers and electronic media.

[Haris Shamsi]

DNDRC was formulated by the official lawyer of PKNIC - what else you
wanna know :)

--
Sent from my mobile device

[Aftab Siddiqui]

speaking about lawyer firm of PKNIC...and if not mistaken.... it was and still is "Jamil & Jamil" ???

The most respectable in the industry.

Regards,

Aftab A. Siddiqui

[Muhammad Tanvir Akhtar]

Yes Barister Jamil's firm you are right

 

Tani

--
Muhammad Tanvir Akhtar
Alpa Foundation
Village and Post Office DHERI,
Sub Post Office CHAKRI,
Rawalpindi 47301 Punjab
Pakistan
Tele:+92-51-4451407
Fax::+92-51-4679247
Cell:+92-333-5291820
Cell:+92-3008338434
www.alpa.org.pk
www.alpaict4d.org

Liasion Office:
Office # 2 First Floor
Gulshan Plaza 6th Road
Rawalpindi Pakistan

[Fouad Bajwa]

Hi Imtiaz,

These processes run in a multilateral stage and are not managed like
business processes but stakes in a global governance scenario. There
is an evident need for Pakistani's to learn and participate in the
ICANN process and represent their country. Since I work at a different
level being an advisor to the UN on the Internet Governance Forum as
well as various operating committees of the ICANN, my interests are
only on the non-commercial users end. Yes, I do serve on the operating
committees of ICANN.

Before you attempt this issue, you must realize that the ICANN
processes are not home brewed activities that take place in domestic
silos. ICANN is an international body where thousands of people from
across the world participate including member from every country,
every individual representing a certain entity can make input and
mutual consensus results in decision making. Even though ICANN is a
non-profit, it takes side with its clientèle, that is, its registries
and registrars. You would even feel decision making happening in the
directions not pleasurable but that is the result of consensus of the
participants and you me or anyone else cannot stop those things in a
democratic environment. Even Barr. Zahid Jamil requires his
suggestions and drafts in ICANN DNRC committee to receive proper
consensus and I am sure he drafts nothing alone.

Last year in June 2008, PKNIC, P@SHA and the International Chambers of
Commerce organized a "Domain Name Dispute Resolution Workshop" for the
Pakistani business and commerce industry in Karachi
(ref:http://www.pasha.org.pk/show_page.htm?input=page_260520081302)
that was open to everyone who wished to participate and the issues you
have referenced were already clarified with the industry there.

Upon checking the .pknic domain registration policy it clearly states
DNDRC to be it's dispute resolver. Its not an issue of is DNDRC legal
or not, its a matter of .pknic that is the national ccTLD to appoint
this to manage its domain name disputes and that's what gives them
both legal status and recognition.
http://www.pknic.net.pk/policy-text.html. You might also want to have
a look at this public comment:
http://public.icann.org/node/343#comment-740

It has to be realized that this is a point I have occasionally raise
that Pakistani's lack participation in the ICANN process. Since I
serve the Non-Commercial User Interests on ICANN, I hardly see any
Pakistan's actively involve except for Zahid himself who is also on
the drafting committee of the Domain Name Dispute Resolution rules
draft teams.

According to my observation, anything you want at the ICANN with
relation to your ccTLD registrar must be associate with PKNIC's
approval so as far as your suggestion is concerned regarding more
DNRCs and non-profit ones, you will have to get them approved by PKNIC
because such an initiative otherwise will have no recognition by
ICANN. Its fairly simple that you should join the PKNIC advisory board
and make such recommendations there because otherwise there won't be a
capacity where you can serve with relation to PKNIC and getting such
issues heard.


--

Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
@skBajwa
Answering all your technology questions
http://www.askbajwa.com
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa

[Faried Nawaz]

Fouad Bajwa <fouad...@gmail.com> writes:

> Its fairly simple that you should join the PKNIC advisory board and
> make such recommendations there because otherwise there won't be a
> capacity where you can serve with relation to PKNIC and getting such
> issues heard.

Easier said than done. PKNIC's Policy Board's page
(http://pk5.pknic.net.pk/pk5/pgPolicyBoard.PK) says

   The policy board strives to serve the internet stakeholders
   under the policy of self-regulation. At the same time we
   welcome observers representing international groups, and
   public officials to ensure the transparency of the process
   and that it is fair and just to all.

I sent mail to st...@pknic.net.pk in February, asking how one becomes an
observer. I never received a reply.

Faried.
--
(> (length "eclipse") (length "emacs")) => T

[Haris Shamsi]

I second faried on this. There have been lot of operational issues
with PKNIC and PKNIC administration is non responsive on all of them.

A year back PTA arranged a session and ashar (the owner of .pk) was
also present. Zahid jamil was represnting him ( although zahid always
claims that he is nuetral to this dispute b/w industry and .pk ). It
requires more than a lawyer mindset to understand the industry and end
user needs.

However I blame industry-specially ISPs/commercial dns server owners,
for not raising concerns properly on this issue as it is not of a
major commercial significance for them. PTA has done impressive work
and study on this and I am sure if the isps get united and channelize
our concerns through authority, ICANN will listen.

If CCTLD has rights under ICANN regulations so does industry and end users.

--

[Fouad Bajwa]

It can be possible that if the industry puts together some sort of
petition etc document, I can forward it through my contacts and see
what the experts and decision makers have to say on this?

[Fouad Bajwa]

Btw, its very interesting how I was ignored from the policy board
whereas I had been on the advisory board for over a decade and was
never involved to participate in the PKNIC activities even though
Ashar knows me very well. So I would also have to agree that yes,
there need to be some changes in the way our ccTLD is managed. Lets
see where things evolve from here now.

[Babar]

Good points Haris. Can we create an advocacy group with the right
stakeholders (ISPAK, PTA, TGP etc)?

[Haris Shamsi]

I am all for it, from PTA Naveed (asst Direct ICT) is loooking after
this (even these days he is in AU attending some session of ICANN).
Wahaj Sb was also in the loop from ispak, so let's channelize the
efforts ?

[Babar]

Thats good. Do we know if PSEB and/or P@SHA take a position on this?

On Jun 24, 11:05 am, Haris Shamsi <haris.sha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am all for it, from PTA Naveed (asst Direct ICT) is loooking after
> this (even these days he is in AU attending some session of ICANN).
> Wahaj Sb was also in the loop from ispak, so let's channelize the
> efforts ?
>

[Faisal Khan]

I thin PSEB/PASHA will support what industry wants, the question remains, what do we want to do with PKNIC? One argument is to let some government body take over it and run it. I shudder at the very thought.

Other is to let a private entity run it - which I am all for it - provided complete transparency is there, and no conflict of interest remains.  A web host, ISP or domain reseller are classic examples of conflict of interest.

[Faisal Khan]

*think

[Babar]

Faisal,

I agree with your suggestion:
"let a private entity run it - provided complete transparency is

there, and no conflict of interest remains."

An entity can be created with the right industry (and govt)
representation. I think this is important enough that we do this. I'd
love to hear from Tariq Mustafa on this when he comes back.

Babar

On Jun 24, 12:49 pm, Faisal Khan <babushk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thin PSEB/PASHA will support what industry wants, the question remains,
> what do we want to do with PKNIC? One argument is to let some government
> body take over it and run it. I shudder at the very thought.
>
> Other is to let a private entity run it - which I am all for it - provided
> complete transparency is there, and no conflict of interest remains.  A web
> host, ISP or domain reseller are classic examples of conflict of interest.
>

[Faisal Khan]

This topic was beaten to death (figuratively speaking on many other mailing lists). The two divides were Pak Host and PKNIC/Asher.

I really don't care who runs it - as long as certain guidelines are met, I know I have that list somewhere, am too lazy to look it up right now. Will post what i had suggested and many other PASHA members too had given their input.

Bottom line: It has to be more economical/affordable, more reliable, more scalable and more reachable (i.e. emails/telephone/fax, and offices in major cities, etc. etc.).

[Adnan Quddus Malik]

JUST A FEW SUGGESTIONS/QUESTIONS?ANSWERS IN THIS REGARD RATHER TO
STREAMLINE DNDRC/PKNIC WITH AN ACCEPTABLE MANAGEMENT BODY


SUGGESTIONS
FOR.PK ccTLD RE-DELEGATION

1- Should .pk be Re-Delegated?

Yes, the re-delegation of .pk be done. This stance can also be
referred through ICANN’s following reference:

Note: the above endorsement is subject to its integrity and
independence (within logical/ethical brackets) without operational
disturbance due to any unsolicited imposition from any of the
governmental influence.

Source: http://www.icann.org/icp/icp-1.htm

The Management of Delegated Domains
As part of its responsibility for the overall coordination and
management of the DNS, the IANA receives and processes all requests
for new TLDs and for changes to existing TLDs. The following policies
are applicable to management of TLDs. In general, the principles
described here apply recursively to all delegations of the Internet
DNS name space.
(a) Delegation of a New Top Level Domain:
Delegation of a new top level domain requires the completion of a
number of procedures, including the identification of a TLD manager
with the requisite skills and authority to operate the TLD
appropriately. The desires of the government of a country with regard
to delegation of a ccTLD are taken very seriously. The IANA will make
them a major consideration in any TLD delegation/transfer discussions.
Significantly interested parties in the domain should agree that the
proposed TLD manager is the appropriate party. The key requirement is
that for each domain there be a designated manager for supervising
that domain's name space. In the case of ccTLDs, this means that there
is a manager that supervises the domain names and operates the domain
name system in that country. There must be Internet Protocol (IP)
connectivity to the name servers and electronic mail connectivity to
the entire management, staff, and contacts of the manager. There must
be an administrative contact and a technical contact for each domain.
The administrative contact must reside in the country involved for
ccTLDs. The IANA may choose to make partial delegations of a TLD when
circumstances, such as those in a developing country, so dictate. It
may also authorize a "proxy" DNS service outside of a developing
country as a temporary form of assistance to the creation of Internet
connectivity in new areas. [N.B. The IANA continues to receive
inquiries about delegation of new gTLDs. This is a significant policy
issue on which ICANN will conduct a careful study and review based on
the established decision making procedures. Information about this
study will be disseminated on the website at icann.org.]

2- Is there any need of it?

Yes there is a need; reason being; Internationally ccTLD’s are
operated and maintained from within the geographical boundaries with
the exception of its replicas/mirrors located somewhere outside for
redundancy therefore it will be no exception for Pakistan.

3- Is .pk ccTLD a National Asset?

Yes. ccTLD is a Digital National Asset since it provides cover to
Trade Marks, Patents, Copy Rights, Intellectual Copy Rights, etc. with
respect to its terrestrial location, in addition, over and above all “
it is a state’s claim to a digital name”.

4- Bringing root servers to Pakistan?

As is mentioned in last para “ccTLD provides cover to Trade Marks,
Patents, Copy Rights, Intellectual Copy Rights, etc” it is necessary
to shift root servers to Pakistan since there is a great difference
between the Laws which are currently applicable on existing location
of .pk ccTLD hence disputes resolution by the manager of TLD
regarding the rights of domain names refers to the presence of mangers
to be located in the relevant terrestrial location with respect to its
laws applicable for both the parties. In this regard following ICANN
reference may be seen.
Source: http://www.icann.org/icp/icp-1.htm

The Management of Delegated Domains
(h) Rights to Domain Names:
The IANA has no special requirement for policies to be followed by TLD
managers in connection with disputes over rights to domain names other
than those stated generally in this document and RFC 1591. Please
note, however, that use of a particular domain name may be subject to
applicable laws, including those concerning trademarks and other types
of intellectual property.

It is therefore suggested to move the root servers to Pakistan for the
applicability of Laws of the land to .pk ccTLD.

5- Mirroring for disaster recovery of .pk?

During the PTA’s meeting it was pointed out by the participants that
mirroring of .pk is vital for which an immediate action is necessary
to be taken ASAP by PKNIC.

6- Formation of Board of Trustees / Collective Body.

I suggest to have a Board of Trustees / Collective Body to be formed
for the proper handling of the matter from Re-Delegation to the
enforcement of QoS, nominations for Board of Trustees / Collective
Body is suggested to be sought from the Industry/PTA/MOIT
collectively.

7- PKNIC may be designated as the Manager.

PKNIC may be offered to continue to operate and manage .pk keeping in
view the requirement of ICANN & QoS identified and finalized by the
Board of Trustees / Collective body.

8- Quality of Service.
Industry is very much concerned about the poor QoS by PKNIC which has
been identified as not fulfilling even basic standards of customer
support and services. The board of trustees with the input of industry/
PTA/MOIT may finalise the standards to be adopted for future and in
case of non-compliance consequences may be identified.

~Adnan~

[Haris Shamsi]

When Dr. Yaseen was member tech. (now he is chairman PTA) was leading
this project and re -delegation was on of the considerations. at that
point the main agenda was how to secure .gov.pk as its a direct threat
to government that a private entity sitting outside is managing all
domains. During the first meeting at PTA HQ (barrister umar was
representing pknic at that time) said very clearly that ashar is ready
to sell this to any entity in pakistan ( later i got to know that he
was asking about 2 million dollers for that _ i couldnt stop my laugh
as at that time pknic was managing 22 k domains) Any how as usual
when this offer was made a lot of KNOWN players jumped into the
discussion ( NTC was the leading one), the point was that gov should
manage it. we as industry at that time resisted that idea( wahajd sb
from ispak was also present during that meeting) and a consensus was
reached that a body will be formulated having industry, end users
(civil society as they call it :)) and MoITT representation.

The idea was not to get re-delegation but formation of a advisory
board which helps pknic admin to understand and meet the requirements
of industry and end user. Also the advisory board will brainstorm on
the ways to bring pknic back to pakistan.

The second meeting concluded ( and ashar was part of it) that pknic
will also consider

1- reducing the yearly price of domain registration on .pk
2- install the replicas in Karachi lahore and Islamabad to have local
resolution of domains available frm within pakistan

from that point onwards i didnt hear any thing either from PTA or Pknic.

[Faisal Khan]

To be quite honest, PKNIC redelegation is low on priority. What it has been is a constant battle between Ashar and PakHost owner (I forget his name - quite a cheesy character).

That is the only reason redelegation props up in one or the other mailing list - is becuase the pakHost dudes are trying their level best to snatch it away from Asher, yada yada yada..... and vice versa.

[Babar]

Haris & Faisal - thanks for bringing us all up to speed. Its quite a
tale - hopefully there's a happy ending in near future.

[Fouad Bajwa]

Btw, with a bit of discussions here and there in the global Internet
community, there is a way to effectively end this dispute but it will
take many people to form the right pressure and intervention group in
ICANN to push the issue to the level of solution.

You have to be aware of one thing, PKNIC is not under Pakistani
regulation since the ccTLD was awarded to Ashar in his own capacity.
PKNIC is under ICANN and to make any change to its situation can only
be done under ICANN. Secondly PKNIC DNS servers etc are also not
hosted in Pakistan and are located in remote foreign territory and
again do not fall under local authorities.

PKNIC is a registered company in Pakistan but I think it is a legal
trading organization that operates as any other company in the region
and also pays the necessary taxes etc and enjoys its continued company
status.

Your demands are valid but these will continue to only be heard in
this community, in order to the tap the multilateral process, you have
to follow a procedure, I there is the right mix of public
participation and everyone in this region really want a possible
solution to the PKNIC and dispute issues, you may all have to sit on a
table and listen to someone and and proceed accordingly and intervene
at the ICANN level.

my two cents.

[Faisal Khan]

Again, what is the 'goal' here. Just to go after someone just because they are hosted outside, their company outside, etc.

Just because they were the first ones to setup operations and run it, etc.

I think the list that was circulated on other forums as to what people wanted from PKNIC should be dug up and Asher and Company should be given the first right of refusal of meeting the expectations of that list (some point are, Pakistan Mirror, cheaper domain pricing, better integration, more offices, 24/7 support, better reseller integration, wider committes for policies, etc.)

There are VERY clear rules defined by ICANN for ccTLD Re-Delegation. If someone thinks they can do a better job, by all means have your go at it, especially private entities as long as their is zero-conflict-of-interest.

I just think redelgation for the sake of redelgation should not be done and should not even be considered if any government body (read: jokers) will be the custodians of it all.

[Haris Shamsi]

I second that ....

By the way, as per my knowledge the mirror installation is in process
at Lahore and Islamabad however neither PKNIC nor PTA has confirmed
any thing on this/

Good Day,
Haris Shamsi

[Mohammad Majeed]

If my memory serves me right. CyberNet does host a mirror for .pk tld.
However I can be wrong here.
What I fail to understand is why no one is talking about solution a
comprehensive solution? ICANN doesn't go for any country laws they
have there own rules. Why this should be different for PKNIC .

As far as dndrc people who are pointing fingerd on them have bothered
looking at case studies there? Cases resolved. And people who are
arbitrators who are they?

Assuming there is no dndrc who or where should we go for ? If any one
has better idea they can open there own dndrc and both parties should
agree for that arbitrator or assigned by pknic .

Its better if we all realize that pknic works under icann be it asher
or whoever. As long as they are doing there job and we ve do ve
alternates we should actually appretiate them. How many times all .pk
domains were down? They ve so far given almost 100% reliability and
uptime. Can pta. Or any local pk provider can give us a guarantee of
uptime availability?

Let's keep up a positive attitude rather then bashing one

Munaf
Server4sale

[Haris Shamsi]

Cyber doesn't host .pk Cybernet has replica of F-root server

[imtiaz]

@Majeed,

>>As far as dndrc people who are pointing fingerd on them have bothered
looking at case studies there? Cases resolved. And people who are
arbitrators who are they?

Well If you write directly to DNDRC to inquire more information about
them they are reluctant to provide any further information and even do
not bother to reply emails.

>>They ve so far given almost 100% reliability and
uptime. Can pta. Or any local pk provider can give us a guarantee of
uptime availability?

Who told you that PKNIC is 100% reliable?

Well I suggest an independent consortium composed of

1) representatives from the community (i.e members of different
computer societies, bloggers etc),
2) business representatives (ISPs, Software companies, P@SHA etc)
3) universities and research organizations representatives
4) PTA , PTCL, MOST and Govt representatives

Based on this balance composition of governing structure for PKNIC it
will be more reliable and can provide better services to the industry
and internet related community.

On Jun 26, 6:11 pm, Mohammad Majeed <mmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If my memory serves me right. CyberNet does host a mirror for .pk tld.
> However I can be wrong here.
> What I fail to understand is why no one is talking about solution a
> comprehensive solution?  ICANN doesn't go for any country laws they
> have there own rules. Why this should be different for PKNIC .
>
> As far as dndrc people who are pointing fingerd on them have bothered
> looking at case studies there? Cases resolved. And people who are
> arbitrators who are they?
>
> Assuming there is no dndrc who or where should we go for ? If any one
> has better idea they can open there own dndrc and both parties should
> agree for that arbitrator or assigned by pknic .
>
> Its better if we all realize that pknic works under icann be it asher
> or whoever. As long as they are doing there job and we ve do ve
> alternates we should actually appretiate them. How many times all .pk
> domains were down? They ve so far given almost 100% reliability and
> uptime. Can pta. Or any local pk provider can give us a guarantee of
> uptime availability?
>
> Let's keep up a positive attitude rather then bashing one
>
> Munaf
> Server4sale
>

> On 6/26/09, Haris Shamsi <haris.sha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I second that ....
>
> > By the way, as per my knowledge the mirror installation is in process
> > at Lahore and Islamabad however neither PKNIC nor PTA has confirmed
> > any thing on this/
>
> > Good Day,
> > Haris Shamsi
>

> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Faisal Khan<babushk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Again, what is the 'goal' here. Just to go after someone just because they
> >> are hosted outside, their company outside, etc.
>
> >> Just because they were the first ones to setup operations and run it, etc.
>
> >> I think the list that was circulated on other forums as to what people
> >> wanted from PKNIC should be dug up and Asher and Company should be given
> >> the
> >> first right of refusal of meeting the expectations of that list (some
> >> point
> >> are, Pakistan Mirror, cheaper domain pricing, better integration, more
> >> offices, 24/7 support, better reseller integration, wider committes for
> >> policies, etc.)
>
> >> There are VERY clear rules defined by ICANN for ccTLD Re-Delegation. If
> >> someone thinks they can do a better job, by all means have your go at it,
> >> especially private entities as long as their is zero-conflict-of-interest.
>
> >> I just think redelgation for the sake of redelgation should not be done
> >> and
> >> should not even be considered if any government body (read: jokers) will
> >> be
> >> the custodians of it all.
>

> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Btw, with a bit of discussions here and there in the global Internet
> >>> community, there is a way to effectively end this dispute but it will
> >>> take many people to form the right pressure and intervention group in
> >>> ICANN to push the issue to the level of solution.
>
> >>> You have to be aware of one thing, PKNIC is not under Pakistani
> >>> regulation since the ccTLD was awarded to Ashar in his own capacity.
> >>> PKNIC is under ICANN and to make any change to its situation can only
> >>> be done under ICANN. Secondly PKNIC DNS servers etc are also not
> >>> hosted in Pakistan and are located in remote foreign territory and
> >>> again do not fall under local authorities.
>
> >>> PKNIC is a registered company in Pakistan but I think it is a legal
> >>> trading organization that operates as any other company in the region
> >>> and also pays the necessary taxes etc and enjoys its continued company
> >>> status.
>
> >>> Your demands are valid but these will continue to only be heard in
> >>> this community, in order to the tap the multilateral process, you have
> >>> to follow a procedure, I there is the right mix of public
> >>> participation and everyone in this region really want a possible
> >>> solution to the PKNIC and dispute issues, you may all have to sit on a
> >>> table and listen to someone and and proceed accordingly and intervene
> >>> at the ICANN level.
>
> >>> my two cents.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Faisal Khan]

Imtiaz,

Why don't you spell it out in black and white, what you mean by reliable and better services.

And since we are talking about 100% reliability, I do not know of any other ccTLD that is also 100% reliable. Almost every ccTLD has had their breakdowns, etc.

Even Neustar which manages ccTLDs for a couple of countries, and have an amazing network have been down thrice last year. That is with the Gazbillions of bucks that they spend.

So give the PKNIC chapter a break, until and unless you really have something worth pursuing.

As far as DNDRC is concerned, if you don't like them - there is always WIPO for you.

It can be said with a lot of confidence, that each time a PKNIC thread is started, it was always PakHost behind it - the silly man doesn't understand people can see through 'subscribed' (or better word - proxy posts) like yours. PKNIC / PakHost - I really don't give two hoots - who advocates what. But for years, its been nothing but talks and lobbying and mud slinging. About time you thought of a difference approach.

Nothing happened on the other lists (for reasons that can best be checked on other mailing lists), and nothing will happen here.

If you're serious about ccTLD re-delegation, go ahead and file for a change.

[imtiaz]

@Faisal Khan

I feel seriously offended with your statement

"it can be said with a lot of confidence, that each time a PKNIC

thread is
started, it was always PakHost behind it - the silly man doesn't
understand
people can see through 'subscribed' (or better word - proxy posts)
like
yours. "

Well for your kind knowledge / information I have nothing to do with
PakHost and even do not know what this name is about?

I guess you have a good reading skills and you can easily read my
proposal posted above

"Well I suggest an independent consortium composed of
1) representatives from the community (i.e members of different
computer societies, bloggers etc),
2) business representatives (ISPs, Software companies, P@SHA etc)
3) universities and research organizations representatives
4) PTA , PTCL, MOST and Govt representatives
"

Where is PakHost in these suggestions. Let me have my own independent
identity. Why I should use proxy other other silly thing to promote
others? You should at least learn to respect others views and you have
no right to mix others identity without any proof.

I have never been in favor of any single organization including PKNIC,
yours so called PakHost or any other. Please read my points above and
these are written in plain English not in Persian. For me PKNIC and
your so called PakHost are the sides of the same picture if they are
looking for their personal benefits.

If I say you you are a Proxy of Ashar? Proxy of Z. J ? Shame on such
silly arguments.

If you want to talk me on phone I am more than happy to provide you my
numbers so that you better know I am not a proxy.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Faisal Khan]

Imtiaz, if you feel offended, that is your prerogative. I will not apologize for what I have stated.

I've seen your postings on various lists, and I have come to the deduction:

1. You're still bitter about your cybersquatting on djuice.pk
2. Your knowledge of some of the matters you discuss, is Google/wiki knowledge at best - so its fruitless discussing things further with you.
3. You always come to the forums to ignite the PKNIC debate
4. You DEFINITELY ARE a proxy for Pak Host.
5. Lastly, your own independeted identity hs been warped!


As for me being a proxy, I will wholeheartedly say I very much support for Zahid Jamil is doing. Asher I have never met in my life, so sadly I can't be a proxy for him..... but the most important part is - if I were, I'd be proud to say it!



FK

[imtiaz]

@Faisal Khan

> Imtiaz, if you feel offended, that is your prerogative. I will not apologize for what I have stated.

Yes it is my own prerogative as I am not proxy of any body as you are
for ZJ. Who requested you an apology ? I can never expect an apology
from the people who are mentally blind. So I have never demanded for
this and will never demand in future.

>I've seen your postings on various lists, and I have come to the deduction:

Well it is your own prerogative as I have never demanded any deduction
from you. I have the every right to say my feelings what ever I feel
about .PK domains as these are not personal property of Ashar, your
PakHost and or ZJ or any other body. It is actually a national asset.
I totally respect your views about PKNIC, DNDRC about ASHAR, ZJ etc
and do not want to have any thing on personal so you should also learn
to respect others views. You have started personal attack on me
without knowing the facts and without any proof.

>You DEFINITELY ARE a proxy for Pak Host.

Well I know what I am so I do not care what you blame? I can not argue
with a mentally blind person who can not even read simple suggestions
I have posted above.

>I very much support for Zahid Jamil

Well these are your personal feelings and you have every right to
support any person you want, but as a matter of fact ZJ have already
been exposed at various public forums.

http://www.propakistani.com/2008/08/26/pk-domain-hijacker-makes-4th-infosec-2008-conference-controversial/


We should not be personal to each other but if you have any
suggestions just come up with those rather than wasting time on
personal attacks on each others.

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[Mohammad Majeed]

Dear Imtiaz,
Can you please tell me in last 5 years when did pknic had a major
breakdown? With. The name servers I mean. I said almost 100% .
Now let's just assume your suggestion about consortium. Who will
handle technical and who will handle administration? Assuming its pta
or govt can you guarantee me that the powers will not be used for
abuse?
Who will responsible for internet connectivity? If you say ptcl they
still can't resolve there internal dns issue and isp then which one?
How the financial aspect will be handled?
Which body will be represented in icann?
Why do we need to re delegate when pknic does follow orders?
Other than slow support what other problems pknic has?

I am asking because let's assume we need to move off asher n co that's
just assuming to see what alternates we ve available. Pointing
problem is easy. Solving is the real thing.

Regards
Munaf
Server4sale

[Saqib Ilyas]

At the risk of being flamed, I would like to suggest that such conversation could easily be continued unicast.

--
Muhammad Saqib Ilyas
PhD Student, Computer Science and Engineering
Lahore University of Management Sciences

[Fouad Bajwa]

I just saw the same posted transferred to Pakistan ICT Policy, before
I approve it, I would like to request Imtiaz to answer why he is cross
posting to PICTP list when this has been discussed in detail here?

Fouad

[imtiaz]

@Mohammad Majeed

Have a nice day.

>>Now let's just assume your suggestion about consortium. Who will
handle technical and who will handle administration? Assuming its pta
or govt can you guarantee me that the powers will not be used for
abuse?

I am not saying that Govt should control it I am suggesting an
independent consortium where GOVT, PTA will only have representatives
like from other stack holders. I do not mind if PKNIC technically
carry on with the registry. But they have to be supervised by the
consortium. Actually if we look at the concept, the domain registry
and domain registrar are two different things but in case of .PK PKNIC
have a monopoly and is over doing its role of registry by becoming the
sole registrar of the .pk domains. Please look at the .in or .co.uk or
some other ccTLDS and you will see that the registrar and the registry
are two different things. Anyone if interested can register .in or
other ccTLD from any of the ICANN approved registrar.

As far as .PK domains are concerned one have no choice for you domain
management but only to get it registred from the PKNIC itself which is
also the domain registry. With PKNIC only one person Mr. Ashar is
making all the decisions about the whole national asset. Do you thing
the .PK prices are up to the industry standard? Look at
the .in , .co.uk. .com and other TLDs prices. I am also listed on
this so called advisory board of PKNIC but I have never every received
any information. This is a fake advisory group.

Can you register .PK from Godaddy.com, Enom.com? NetworkSolution.com?
If you can do this for .in not for .PK?

In my suggestions the consortium will act as a custodian of the domain
registry and it will approve different registers for domain
registrations.

As for as domain disputes with .PK are concerned your domains by no
way are safe as in this case again one person is deciding the fate of
all the dispute without any reasoning as they have received an amount
of more than 50000/- from the other party.

Anyhow these are just my suggestions. It is all upto the overall
internet community from Pakistan what they want and what they think is
really good for them.

With Best Regards

> >http://www.propakistani.com/2008/08/26/pk-domain-hijacker-makes-4th-i...

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[imtiaz]

@Fouad Bajwa

Actually It was posted on PakistanICTPolicy on June 18, 2009. As it
was not published for about 3-5 days (I am not sure for exact reasons)
I had posted it at TGP.

Anyhow I persoanlly do not feel any problem in cross posting when the
objective is to reach a wider audience and internet community.


If you feel this is not good I will avoid such practice in future.

With Regards
Imtiaz

[Fouad Bajwa]

Still, most of the audience that subscribes to Pakistan ICT Policy
including myself have responded to your post on TGP and I am also
digging into the issue and will be publishing a series of articles on
www.ProPakistani.com!

At the global level, like I mentioned, I am in discussion with various
groups in the ICANN process and lets see what we can bring out in the
interest of both the people and PKNIC/DNDRC. Some interesting issues
have already come up including the fact that ICANN did not contract
PKNIC, it was contracted by IANA, the agency that later on came under
ICANN.

So hold in there and trust me, whatever you guys have been sharing has
always been heard!