Teaching is dead, long live learning

[Leigh Blackall]

It was for the AusTAFE 2005 conference I first uttered those words, along with a list of other provocative statements from the co presenters. Now, over a year later, I have the chance to say them again and back'm up with a bit more content specific to the statement. I plan to say them at Education Au's Global Summit:

Teaching is Dead, long live learning. Your comments, warnings, heads up and suggestions would be very much appreciated in the page's discussion forum of course.



This work is licensed under a Creative Commons (Attribution) license .





--
Posted by Leigh Blackall to Teach and Learn Online at 5/30/2006 07:17:00 PM

--
--
Would you like to buy my book? http://www.lulu.com/leighblackall
--
Leigh Blackall
+6421736539
skype - leigh_blackall
http://leighblackall.wikispaces.org/

[rgrozdanic]

i have no practical advice or zen koan to offer but am strangely reminded of those old godzilla movies where the citizens of tokyo (or kyoto or wherever it was set) would celebrate having got rid of their problem and meanwhile in some shady part of town, down by the bridge, between two rocks, just under the waterline of the river, with the muffled noise of the celebrations barely audible in the background, a tiny egg would begin to crack....

that's all :-)

r

[Christopher Sessums]

RE: Teaching is dead, long live learning:

The above statement itself seems a bit pedantic. Teaching is and will always be critical to the learning process. The definition of a teacher however is up for grabs. Did you learn to tie your shoes on your own? How did you learn to read and write? Before Duchamp stripped the bride bare, he was taught how to paint and draw in a recognizable form. Thus it is easy to criticize teaching after you have learned how to learn for yourself. How do you propose we conduct primary education? Who will model the learning behaviors you espouse?

Here's a story for you:

A new student approached the Zen master and asked how he should prepare himself for his training. "Think of me a bell," the master explained. "Give me a soft tap, and you will get a tiny ping. Strike hard, and you'll receive a loud, resounding peal."

BTW, I enjoyed reading through your presentation and I applaud the direction you are taking people. I simply enjoy throwing monkey wrenches into people's systems. Feel free to return the favor anytime!

Chris

--
Christopher D. Sessums
Director, Distance Learning
College of Education
University of Florida
personal site: http://elgg.net/csessums/weblog

[peter allen]

Conferences.....

I find conferences a fabulous waste of time.

 The educationista  swan around  "networking" - working the room  -  dropping the right names -   use  the right buzzwords in considered conversations.  

They wax lyrical about "paradigm-shift" and "leverage"

A majority of them haven't seen a classroom in years.

They discuss their forthcoming white paper on an esoteric factoid that is twisted to  provide a new insight into teaching and learning [not].

Practitioners are thin on the ground at conferences .  Maybe its something to do with class timetables or stretched budgets. 

 - or maybe its disinterest.

Why discuss  Web 2.0 when most classrooms  have overhead transparency projectors and  Video cassette players as  standard technology enhancements ?

"Online learning is only for  anglo-saxon  middle class  males  - didn't you know?"

 no..... real change ... real  impact happens in the class room .  its not  heralded by a  white paper, nor contained in  a $500 iPod.

it happens in  small ways,  little by little,  unnoticed changes - like students using  Flash Drives to  take  resources home.

Like teachers   -  making their own websites with the tools that they've  chosen

with the resources  they want  available.

The conference that Leigh will be presenting at will cost $1,000+  to attend. [with travel and accom. factored in]

With  a $1000 I could buy  a laptop,  almost buy a data projector,   I could get three PDA's, or  broadband  for 12months.

But there is no kudos in that , is there......

[rant over... we will now  return you to  normal programming]

[peter allen]

Postscript:  a year of  TALO has been worth more than the previous ten conferences I have been to. 

[Michael Coghlan]

Ah Rose - the words of a writer!

- Michael

[Leigh Blackall]

fabulous feedback everybody. For me this thread has been one of the most successfully thought provoking in my history in TALO. I'm become used to the deadly silence when being provocative and now can enjoy amazing feedback. Thanks - and always when you least expect it!

I'll copy paste this thread into the wiki so its there to see in context and will enjoy the sensation in knowing that some of those conference goers will be seeing it :) he he he.

BTW: I'm not getting paid for this jobby - being in full time employment now, I enjoy following Stephen's lead in not asking for a fee if I don't have to.

Thanks everyone.

[mobology]

Classrooms are dead : Long Live the mobile
PLE.......http://leighblackall.wikispaces.com/Global+Summit

I cant find very much on Blended Digital Chocolate 'cause the onus is
less on teaching and more on selling chocolate ( oops....product)

Dave Warlick has some intersting things to say on curriculum is dead
never mind teaching and classrooms and considering that a Global Summit
generally brings the biggest flies to the largest pile of dung I
thought I'd collaborate a little in leigh's wikispace........without
payment although shortly I will be asking for it. The decisions been
made.

Are summits the flat spot before everyone belays back down into reality
?

As for .....teaching is dead , long live
learning...........hmmm.......... dosent really cut it for me however i
do want one of those damned fine T-shirts Leigh - black - size
eighteen with a glossy iron-on image of a one fingered salute on the
back. Perhaps we could Lulu the idea except this time with a clothing
manufacter and begin a TALO dis-product line......

I remember the stony faces when you unfurled the t-shirt as part of a
presentation to the manager mob along with Anne P and Michael
N.......TAFE NSW campus somewhere or other wasnt it......

Regards,

Alex Hayes
www.alexanderhayes.com
ps. better pay the bill otherwise I'll have to go fully 2.0 like you
lot :-)

[Sewell, Gary]

Try this

http://www.createconsume.com/folio/mirror/blendedchocolate/

Gary Sewell
Head Teacher
Baking Trades
Hamilton Campus
(02) 49699428
gary....@tafensw.edu.au

Regards,

**********************************************************************
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
**********************************************************************

[mobology]

Brilliant ! It worked !

Welcome in Gary....... I look forward to finding out what occurs in the
mobile arena in 2006. Any other links of free and open distributive
content for mobiles you know of we can link to ?

Regards,
Alex Hayes

[Leigh Blackall]

Te he he.. :)

Here's were we go to start producing those TShirts: http://www.zazzle.com. I like the one fingered sallute idea.. bring back the punk and anarchy.

[Leigh Blackall]

Alex, you have any tips on how to get Flash or Quicktime content like this on a PDA?

On 5/31/06, mobology < mobo...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

[mobology]

PDA model / type and onboard players would help a little. Gary would be
your man of how they aggregate these flash lessons to students for PDA
view.

Regards,

Alex Hayes

[Sewell, Gary]

Thanks Alex for your show of faith...but we were the ones who asked
Leigh..lol

Gary Sewell
Head Teacher
Baking Trades
Hamilton Campus
(02) 49699428
gary....@tafensw.edu.au

-----Original Message-----
From: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:teachAndL...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of mobology
Sent: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 10:00 PM
To: Teach and Learn Online
Subject: :: TALO :: Re: Teaching is dead, long live learning

Regards,

Alex Hayes

**********************************************************************

[mobology]

Dang! Better get onto Chris Richter up at TAFE NSW Inverell campus and
hit him for some answers.

Failing that lets get onto the opengardens mob and ask them for some
answers !

Regards,
Alex Hayes
www.alexanderhayes.edublogs.org

[Leigh Blackall]

That's right Chris Richter is the one to ask, but the thing to keep in mind is that the resources should be as reusable as possible so as to work on what ever mobile device. Last I looked, image stacks, or animated gifs (just a series of stills named in such a way so as to display in order) and MP3 was the only reusable and teacher extendable format. Either that or a mobile device that has a standards based browser so as to accept CSS pages.

--
--
Would you like to buy my book? http://www.lulu.com/leighblackall

[Stephen Downes]

Hiya,

It's a good presentation, it says a lot of things I would say, and I like the style of writing.

I believe Ivan Illich is a 'he' and not a 'she'.

One thing, though, about teaching being dead. You will no doubt get a lot of protestation, and while I understand and agree with your point, I think it's not strictly true.

I have become a bit more assertive recently (eg. in my presentation yesterday) about my own theory of 'teaching', which is, 'to model and demonstrate'. In other words, I tell people, 'to teach is to be the sort of thing you want your students to be'.

I don't think that's dead. I don't think that will ever be dead.

Teaching as presenting is dead. Teaching is transferring inforimation from one brain into another is dead. Teaching as exercising authority over a group of students is dead. But teaching, genuine teaching, living what it is you want the next generation to see and emulate, is necessary, and indeed, the only honorable profession.

-- Stephen

--
--
__________________________________________________________________

Stephen Downes ~ Senior Researcher ~ Internet Logic
National Research Council Canada ~ Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
http://www.downes.ca  ~  ste...@downes.ca
__________________________________________________________________

[Leigh Blackall]

Yes I agree and you bet I get a lot of protestation. You should see the troll comments I'm getting in the TALO blog lately.

But that's why I start with the DuChamp work and the saying "Painting is dead, long live painting". I'm hoping to soften the Teaching is dead by referring to that. Clearly painting is not dead, but with the advent of photography, painting was released from the traditions of representation and more fully thrust into the realm of art!

So while teaching may be dead - the type you describe and agree to as dead - I hope to make the point that a new, more true form of teaching and learning is born... One like what you describe - released from the traditions of the classroom, and more fully thrust into the realm of ~ communication?

[Leigh Blackall]

BTW Stephen, I have noticed that you are becoming more ... forceful in your presentations... does it come naturally? I've always admired your knack for keeping things happy and care free, and therefore your audiences friendly. Are you concerned that by becoming more direct you may alienate some listeners - never to return? Does that matter? Perhaps its better. I certainly find I alienate many people with my efforts. I can't help it though, I'm just naturally a hip shoot'n loud mouth who never did like teachers much. While it does win me a few nay sayers, detentions and the odd troll, when I do make friends, they are usually good ones who advocate on my behalf and clarify unresolved issues...

[Stephen Downes]

Well more than just communication, not even communication, really.

It takes a conscious effort to be the sort of person you are trying to get your students to be. How often have we heard, 'Do as I say, not as I do.' But of course the lesson is in what we do. Which is why the main lesson from school is obedience and punctuality. It doesn't matter what you say, you are what you want the world to become.

Who among us lives with that as a conscious intent? Who, even among teachers? I have known a few, who by their upright conduct and firm intent have demonstrated to me the sort of person I want to be. But for the most part people rely on position and authority to enforce their words, while they let their own behaviour slip into lackidaisy and convenience.

Think of Gandhi. What he realized was that the success of his resistance was irrelevant; what mattered was the manner in which he conducted his resistance. Because while an armed insurrection could change the government, it could not change the people, and to achieve independence, it was necessary to change the people. But only through being independent could he show the people what it was like to be independent. And even if he had failed, even had he been cut down by the British army, his example would have endured, and people willing to live independently would, eventually, have carried the day.

We are all about quick change these days, the quick fix, the painless study. Learn a language without effort! (And without understanding.) I have said teaching is modelling and demonstration; learning is practice and reflection. Learning is to emulate the master, not merely in the particular application, but in all matters of conduct. Learning is to seek to become the master, not a clone, but a continuation of that being, of that culture.

No person could ever tell what it is like to be, say, a Gandhi, but it is possible to be a Gandhi, and thereby, to continue his teaching, each of us, in our own way.

-- Stephen

On 6/3/06, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Leigh Blackall]

I'm speechless! Inspired SD. I will chew on that a while, and think about all the things I'm already starting to do that contradict myself in that vision. It is very hard to work like this from within the system in which you seek to change I much preferred the Independence. Just now I made a post to my Ed Dev (work) blog about open courseware... while I did list off the social justifications for it (the ones I truly believe in) I waited them with economic and marketing strategies to try and win influence in the system I am working... was that a mistake... I think it was/is as it passes the idea onto those who are less capable, less inclined to do it rightfully. Had I remained true, sure it may have taken longer, never even, but at least the vision would not be muddied...

This is a bit like the Web2 ownership issue you waded into, and the marketing agents I'm seeing setting up the move into web2 worlds...

[Stephen Downes]

That's an interesting commentary. It probably reflects more things that are going on in my own life more than anything else. I feel more of an urgency recently.

When you can keep things light and carefree, you should. That is certainly how I prefer to be, and is in fact my normal state. Not to lose your interest in things, but to lose your attachment.

Robert Nozick wrote a long and dense tome called Philosophical Explanations (I don't recommend it) the gist of which was, essentially, that argumentation is meaningless, that although in philosophy we teach, as the core of reason, how to argue, in fact no argument has ever convinced anyone, and what we are really trying to do is explain why we believe what we believe.

I gave up arguing during my abortive PhD, when I realized that there was no point to argumentation. I have since then tried to live what I believe, and when people would ask, to explain why I believed it. This allowed me a certain detachment, because it didn't matter whether they agreed with me, what mattered is that my explanation was true and honest and forthright.

This turns out to be surprisingly hard - how often we want people to believe us, to be like us, to like us!

More recently, I guess, I have found it surprisingly hard to be honest to myself. The force you see in my words is me struggling with some of these thoughts and ideas. I want - I need - to believe I am living the right life, conducting myself the right way. And I have to present to myself in stark, uncompromising terms, what I believe that way to be.

It's funny about alienating readers. When I publish OLDaily, I publish it all at once, as a single shot. The very first response I receive, every single day, is "Unsubscribe." As it turns out, no matter what I write, this will be the response. I have learned - I have had to learn - a certain detachment about it.

If I am honest with myself and sharing with others, I will have readers, and I will have friends. And so I cultivate my own honesty and my own sharing. It is very hard. But I know some people who are not honest and who do not share, and they wonder why they have few friends, and why I am no longer among them.

When you say things just to please, your words have no value, and your associations will be shallow and meaningless.

This is probably the hardest lesson I have ever learned, and I am learning it still, and if my words are harsh, it is because such lessons are not without pain.

[Leigh Blackall]

Indeed! This is a great start to a conversation for when we all meet in Dunedin on September 18. Some very thoughtful words there SD, and ones I will certainly be thinking about for quite some time.

Its great to have you with us at last BTW. You bring a new tone to TALO which will help many of us in our similar struggles with the things we are up against.

Sunshine's waving a old Marlon Brando film on DVD we picked up at a bargain store... One Eyed Jacks its called. We're tucking into bed for that one.. hope its a Brando classic.

[Joyce Smith]

Hi guys, must admit I didn’t really read this thread , until I just read Stephen’s ,and noted dear Leigh’s comment

 

So while teaching may be dead - the type you describe and agree to as dead - I hope to make the point that a new, more true form of teaching and learning is born... One like what you describe - released from the traditions of the classroom, and more fully thrust into the realm of ~ communication?

 

,to which Stephen so very aptly replied, giving us an example of Gandhi  !!

 

Learning is to emulate the master, not merely in the particular application, but in all matters of conduct. Learning is to seek to become the master, not a clone, but a continuation of that being, of that culture.

No person could ever tell what it is like to be, say, a Gandhi, but it is possible to be a Gandhi, and thereby, to continue his teaching, each of us, in our own way.

 

From my own very humble experience as a ‘teacher’ firstly as a Mother , then a Grandmother ,and now as a workplace teacher , and, my continuing efforts as a ‘student’

in an MBA course , ok I’m a little ‘old’ , but also ‘switched on’ to technology (as dear Leigh knows)

 

A thought ??    Just maybe society still needs the dedicated people that are true ‘teachers’ ?

 

Where is the ‘classroom’ , it could be a hut somewhere in the African continent , where their only tools for teaching are a slate and a piece of chalk , or, it could be in the U,S.A.

On a web-site with a login via credit card to get ,as Stephen said, a ‘quick fix’ education

 

What is the difference honestly ? Is the knowledge being transferred  (hopefully) to the student any different ?

 

Of course it is different !!

 

As I said, I am only a very humble workplace trainer , but, I can deliver the same course

to different cohorts, in a classroom, or on-line ,and each course  will be different , why ? because the PEOPLE are different and have different needs and  views on their course material !! , and me, as the ‘teacher’ need to interact with those individual students !

 

Yep, of course I need to communicate with them ! If when we were born no one ‘spoke’ around us, how would we ‘learn’ a language??

 

Communicate , surely means two ways ??

--
Joyce Smith

GCert BA (Newcastle)
MBA (in progress)
MYOB Accredited Trainer
MYOB Certified Consultant




On-Site & On-Line Training & Support
CERT IV Trainer & Assessor
E-Moderator (SWPS)

(02) 4945 2806
Belmont NSW 2280
joyce...@bigpond.com

MY Web-Site

Hunter Central Coast MYOB C.C's

[Michael Nelson]

I love the idea of "to teach is to be the sort of thing that you want your students to be", but I'm just a bit confused as to where the students expectations fit into this (some students get frustrated in our web design class because they want me to stand up the front and tell them exactly what they need to learn).

I feel like I'm almost deciding what's best for them by being who I want my students to be... a learner.

From http://liveandletlearn.net/live-what-you-teach/

"I guess I'm just trying to balance who I want to be as a facilitator/learner and what students want from me as their facilitator/'teacher'. Really for me this highlights that I can "be the sort of thing that I want my students to be", but (1) this might not be what they want to be, and (2) this might not be what they want me to be.

Do I then decide what's best for them? Nope. I guess I can only model what I think is right - but that doesn't mean I can't accommodate different expectations."

--
Michael Nelson
http://liveandletlearn.net/

[Sean FitzGerald]

In defense of teachers

I have to chime in here and agree with others when they make the point that teaching isn't dead, but that the nature of teaching has changed (as indeed it needs to change) and that the role of the teacher is changing.

Hopefully it will be rise, Phoenix-like, from the ashes, reborn, into something new and improved.

Surely then, sticking to the theme of "The King is dead. Long live the King!" and "Painting is dead, long live painting", you should be proclaiming:

"Teaching is dead! Long live teaching!"

This would be thematically consistent and it's still a provocative enough statement to grab attention, without provoking a negative reaction by teachers (and others in related professions) who would feel that their role and livelihood is threatened by your original statement.

It also reflects the change in a way that could be presented as an exciting opportunity for teachers to be involved in the evolution of a new society, rather than something to be feared and resisted.

And instead of "reducing" us all to the level of learners, why not "elevate" us all to the level of teachers?

Great thread!

Sean

-- 

Sean FitzGerald
Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291
Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342
Skype: seamusy
Email: se...@tig.com.au
Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/
Blog: http://elgg.net/seanfitz/weblog/
Podcast: http://castingthenetpodcast.blogspot.com/

One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant
goal we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that
goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means.
-- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[rgrozdanic]

My name really should be Mary cos I'm so often contrary but that's because my brain always jumps to the other side of any argument (including arguments taking place in my own head - if you don't like my posts, you should try living in my head for a while and think yourself lucky)

Ghandi is a symbol more than anything even tho he's also a historical figure and much revered. From all accounts he was a pretty crap husband and neglectful father, as you would expect when someone's out there living out another destiny. I remember reading Mandela's Walk to Freedom (or whatever it was called) and being incredibly disappointed that he was such a warts and all human, a flawed hero in his time period, a criminal if he was to do the same things now or if the tide had turned another way. But what an amazing symbol for something. That's the thing about legendary men, women, ideas - they always point to something more universal rather than ever succeeding in being it in themselves.

I think education is like any other field, one step forward, two steps back, tangents off to the side that may look promising, only to find they were inappropriate or far fetched, others that seem ridiculous leading to the (current) gold, the situation changing tomorrow, the benefit of 20/20 hindsight always being the sting in the tail.  I don't hold hope for us ever conclusively getting anything right - only "approximately OK for now". While I totally congratulate Leigh and others for the provocative slogans, themes, etc, I always chuckle a bit too because the fun for me is in teasing out the bit between the polarities, not the polarities themselves.

One of my favourite tangents is to muse on what our descendants will scoff at 300 years from now. Will they be as sure of their convictions? Passionate about their role in human history? Dismissive of what came before? Not that anyone here is necessarily doing any of that. I'm just in a rambling mood today and posting alot to TALO.

Maybe I'll go play outside now.

r

[Bronwyn Hegarty]

here's a Zen story which I'd like to add to the discussion about teaching. What does it mean?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A renowned Zen master said that his greatest teaching was this: Buddha is your own mind. So impressed by how profound this idea was, one monk decided to leave the monastery and retreat to the wilderness to meditate on this insight. There he spent 20 years as a hermit probing the great teaching.

One day he met another monk who was traveling through the forest. Quickly the hermit monk learned that the traveler also had studied under the same Zen master. "Please, tell me what you know of the master's greatest teaching." The traveler's eyes lit up, "Ah, the master has been very clear about this. He says that his greatest teaching is this: Buddha is NOT your own mind."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My interpretation of this story is: no matter what a teacher tells his/her students, they will interpret it for themselves and in many different ways, and no interpretation is any more correct than any other. It is what they do with the information that is important, and they need to get it from somewhere or from someone and if it happens to be a teacher that they know and respect is this such a bad thing?. see other responses.

I believe that learning just like Zen is "a way of life", and also that there may be some teaching involved, there is always someone who has more knowledge or experience and we can learn from them.

I don't agree that teaching is dead, but I do believe in Long live learning under the guidance of teachers, and I do believe in taking time to reflect and  let ourselves learn from others and from ourselves....
See wikipedia entry:
...."Japanese Zen teachers have frequently made the point that Zen is a way of life and not solely a state of consciousness. D.T. Suzuki wrote that the aspects of this life are: a life of humility; a life of labor; a life of service; a life of prayer and gratitude; and a life of meditation."
Bronwyn

[peter allen]

On 6/4/06, Bronwyn Hegarty <bronwyn...@gmail.com> wrote:

here's a Zen story which I'd like to add to the discussion about teaching. What does it mean?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A renowned Zen master
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My interpretation of this story is:

 My guess of Leigh's interpretation is: "Dont listen to teachers or you will waste 20 years of your life..... :)

(sorry couldnt resist!)
 

[Leigh Blackall]

My lord! You took the words right out of my mouth..  Thanks everyone for sustaining this discussion, it has been very thought provoking for me.. I'm stewing on it all. One thing that sticks out is when Sean said that the value of schools debate has been missing from our history... I never did work out why, when as 10 year olds my class stood up and sung Pink Floyd's "break down the wall" it didn't have more of an affect. We enjoyed it a lot, I particularly loved screaming at the top of my lungs "hey! teacher, leave those kids alone>>" but after the assembly, that was it. It was never talked about again. The meaning of the lyrics never seemed to hit home... it was my first revolutionary anti climax