Fear Mongering

[alexanderhayes]

It's amazing that the SM still manages to scare monger this late in
the pre-election with this sort of rubbish -

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/dont-get-caught-up-in-your-own-web-profile/2007/06/24/1182623722251.html

This does nothing to build the confidence of learners whose entire
lives will hinge on social networking skills and computer mediated
learning experiences.....never mind living responsibilities as "free"
law abiding citizens. What is the point of the article ?

>We're also leaving traces of ourselves all over the World Wide Web, and it's positively chilling to imagine the intimate details and the scores of email addresses of old colleagues, SCHOOLMATES, boyfriends and girlfriends that reporters can mine for information on us, if we suddenly become newsworthy. <

Suddenly become newsworthy ?

Oh ....come back to planet earth please and get your twitter into
author mode.

And what do you think of the idea that Indigenous Australian's have
need for emergency intervention to live their lives in their
communities with education as the ticket of divisiveness for those
deemed truant ? Drunk ? Different ?

Have WE no shame ?

Seems not.....and dont tell me your homepage is SMH or I'll puke /
cry / purge my Bloglines.

[Kylie Rowsell]

<mini stoush>

SMH page is my homepage. They were offering PRIZES Alex if I did so.
PRIIIIIIIZES.

I don't quite get your point...that lady is suddenly newsworthy, and
spin is being placed on her persona and actions.

You , me and this group may understand online identity and avatars and
stuff.
But many folks are still of the "I read it, it must be true' school and
believe what this lady has written on her mySpace.

There is not the savvy and understanding ('literacy') of the online
profiled-world to be able to make any other judgements.

And then they spin it slightly and she's a fast livin' stripper.

So what does your plea for re-entry into the earth's atmosphere mean?

Currently, twitter does not float my boat. Yeh, I've looked. Tried.
I carnt be bothered just now...when its an important tool FOR ME, I
will use it.
Sarah Gilbert may feel the same.
Existence of a tool does not confirm its usefulness.

</mini stoush>

:P

Thanks,
Kylie
Training Coordinator
Hunter Councils Learning and Development

ph: 4978 4016

[Michael Coghlan]

At 03:16 PM 6/26/2007, Kylie wrote:

<mini stoush>

Existence of a tool does not confirm its usefulness.

How can you utter such heresy?

- Michael.

[Janet Hawtin]

On 6/26/07, Michael Coghlan <mich...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
>  
>  At 03:16 PM 6/26/2007, Kylie wrote:
>
>  
> <mini stoush>
>
>  
>  Existence of a tool does not confirm its usefulness.
>  How can you utter such heresy?
>
>  - Michael.
>
>  
>  
> </mini stoush>

For the love of tech!

[Kylie Rowsell]

Janet said: For the love of tech!

Wonderful!! The other end of the scale...and one I have more patience for, myself....

 

 

And an addition to my comment: Existence of a tool does not confirm its usefulness.

Is Web 2.0 becoming a bit chindogu on us?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chind%C5%8Dgu

Sometimes it feels like it...until that vital moment when usefulness emerges....

like me finally having a use for MSN when my brother moved to WA.

It works for him and me, and it works. Never used it before May 07. Never needed to.

 

Thanks,
Kylie
Training Coordinator
Hunter Councils Learning and Development
 
ph: 4978 4016

 

---

From: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com [mailto:teachAndL...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Hawtin
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 4:21 PM
To: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Subject: :: TALO :: Re: Fear Mongering

[Bill Kerr]

hi alex,

there is moral panic, which is a beatup (fear of web) and moral panic, which is not a beat up (aboriginal child abuse)

the situation of indigeneous australians is not a beat up
suggest you read some noel pearson
http://tinyurl.com/2eneyk
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralian/comments/politics_aside_an_end_to_the_tears_is_our_priority/P140/

in response to this comment:

And what do you think of the idea that Indigenous Australian's have
need for emergency intervention to live their lives in their
communities with education as the ticket of divisiveness for those
deemed truant ? Drunk ? Different ?

Have WE no shame ?

--
Bill Kerr
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/
http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
skype: billkerr2006

[Leigh Blackall]

30 years of reports into Aboriginal Australia
List compiled by Marika Webb-Pullman, Jane Nethercote and Sophie Vorrath

We're constantly told about the numerous reports over recent decades highlighting the state of Aboriginal Australia that have been ignored or filed away.

Last year we wondered, how many reports, and what did they say? So we compiled a list of at least 25 (mainly government) reports on the subject. Today we update it:

1977: Final report on alcohol problems of Aboriginals, an Australian parliamentary report, is released.

1979: Aboriginal Health, a report by the House of Representatives Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs (HRSCAA), is released. It notes < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=c7619868-72be-4394-a0da-4ef0fd94c66d&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> that the "standard of health of Aborigines was still far lower than the majority of Australians" and that "little progress had been made in raising it". And its chairman Philip Ruddock notes: "When innumerable reports on the poor state of Aboriginal health are released there are expressions of shock or surprise and outraged cries for immediate action. However ... the appalling state of Aboriginal health is soon forgotten until another report is released."

1980: The Program Effectiveness Report, an internal Commonwealth Government report (never publicly released) considers indigenous involvement in Aboriginal health policy development, the introduction of specific indigenous health initiatives and the existing arrangements for funding and administration of indigenous health.

1981: The Commonwealth Government initiates a $50 million five-year Aboriginal Public Health Improvement Program focusing on unsatisfactory environmental conditions associated with inadequate water, sewerage and power systems.

&Royal Commission Report of Inquiry < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=67220b33-1834-4149-8aed-700842ff24e8&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> into the death of Bruce Thomas Leslie, the Aboriginal man who was wrongly diagnosed as being drunk by ambulance officers and was taken to Tamworth police station. An X-ray later showed he in fact had a fractured skull. Leslie died of a brain haemorrhage.

1982: Strategies to help overcome the problems of Aboriginal town camps, an HRSCAA report, is released.

A report looking at the disproportionate number of Aboriginal people charged with minor offences < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=145be9aa-b021-4619-bf88-3d9e3904b951&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> is released by the SA Office of Crime Statistics releases. Findings include the fact that more than 58% of all defendants appearing on drunkenness, vagrancy, offensive behaviour and liquor-related charges in courts outside the Adelaide metropolitan area are Aborigines, even though this racial group constitutes less than 2% of the rural population.

1988: Australia has violated the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, according to a United Nations official sent to Australia to investigate the conditions of Aborigines.

1989: &A National Aboriginal Health Strategy < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=2a817c32-ab39-42b9-a1b7-41a28dba1eae&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, the landmark final report of the National Aboriginal Health Strategy Working Party (NAHSWP), is presented to the Joint Ministerial Forum. It determines primary health < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=67a95779-5fbc-44a2-9be8-fddd821f5b6f&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> care is one of the key strategies for addressing Aboriginal health disadvantage and identifies the need to develop more collaborative health service planning processes. It also devotes a chapter to the impact of substance abuse.

1991: The final report of the &Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=553cfafc-f824-4d6d-9c4b-4f13034f35ca&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> (RCADC), which investigated 99 deaths of Aborigines in custody over a nine-year period, is released. It finds that the disproportionate rate at which Aboriginal people are arrested was the major and most immediate cause of these deaths, and also reveals a history of racism and state control of indigenous communities. It makes 339 recommendations.

The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) launches the &National Inquiry into Racist Violence < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=4fdb8392-f4e0-456a-b5a7-f8cd29af3cb5&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, which concludes that racist violence against Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders is endemic, nationwide and very severe.

1992: The Commonwealth Government announces a $150 million five-year funding package, principally for the establishment of Aboriginal-controlled drug and alcohol services.

1993: Health facilities available for Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders should be completely revamped, according to a report tabled in Parliament. The report, by the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Policy Unit and the Health Department, finds that Aboriginal mortality is 3-4 times than the rest of the community, that mortality rates from pneumonia are ten times higher than of the population as a whole and that mortality rates from diabetes are nine times that of the population as a whole.

1994 : A National Aboriginal Health Strategy: An Evaluation finds that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders face the health hazards of a hostile and inadequate physical environment (contaminated water, poor sanitation, and unsafe housing, transport and work conditions) and argues that "setting up committees will resolve nothing" - what is needed is a bold and clear national initiative that will "step over the shambles" of previous efforts.

&The Report to the National Committee to Defend Black Rights:& &Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Custodial Deaths Between May 1989 and January 1994 < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=a24f17fb-254c-4304-ae2b-919d4a817165&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> is released, finding that the the national rate of Aboriginal custodial deaths has not decreased and that many of those who have died have done so because key areas of reform highlighted by the RCIADIC have not taken place.

1995: The Alcohol Report: Race Discrimination, Human Rights and the Distribution of Alcohol exposes alcohol misuse and its impact on Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory and highlights the lack of consultation between the NT Liquor Commission and indigenous communities, recommending amendments to the Liquor Act (1978) to allow Aboriginal communities more control over the provision of alcohol to their communities.

1996: The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health and Welfare Information Unit (ATSIHWIU) undertakes a review to develop a National Plan for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Information.

1997: The Health and Welfare of Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples - a joint publication of the Australian Bureau of Statistics and the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare - reveals that "almost four in ten indigenous households were estimated to have either insufficient income to meet basic needs (even before taking housing into account), or not enough income to afford adequate housing."

1998: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Program < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=cdfabe9b-5524-48eb-8871-fb0646c599e7&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, a National Audit Office performance audit of the Department of Health and Aged Care, reports that the life expectancy at birth of Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders is 15-20 years lower than all Australians, that for all causes of death combined there were 3.5-4 times more deaths than expected among Indigenous people, and that indigenous people are 2-3 times more likely to be hospitalised.

1999: &National Aboriginal Health Strategy - delivery of housing and infrastructure to Aboriginal and &Torres Strait& Islander communities < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=7965ab76-3094-4d7b-a41c-8b1dfdada460&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, a National Audit Office performance audit of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission, reports that a lack of basic facilities, such as access to adequate housing, water and waste removal, is contributing to the high morbidity rate of indigenous Australians and that ATSIC was not administering the housing program in a timely, costly or efficient manner.

2000: &Health is life < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=b72ccbc5-1240-4f55-bc18-d964e0759a43&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, the House of Representatives Standing Committee on Family and Community Affairs final report on indigenous health issues, finds a "lack of clear delineation of responsibility for indigenous health," and that the parties, particularly the states, indulge "wherever possible" in shifting the onus for payment to another sector and that "the lack of any real efforts to integrate community involvement into the planning and delivery of health and related services" has been been one of the biggest barriers to progress.

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, in a report on Australia's treatment of its indigenous population < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=edeb97fc-76a8-4cb3-a748-82477d865613&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, notes that "mandatory sentencing schemes appear to target offences that are committed disproportionately by indigenous Australians" in Western Australia and the Northern Territory and remains concerned by "the extent of the continuing discrimination faced by indigenous Australians in the enjoyment of their economic, social and cultural rights". Foreign Minister Alexander Downer's responds: "We won't cop it any longer. We are a democratically elected government in one of the most liberal and democratic countries you will find on Earth. And if a United Nations committee wants to play domestic politics here in Australia, then it will end up with a bloody nose."

2001: The draft &National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Strategy < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=fb032c87-dcbc-4200-9597-ff2a7f182aa7&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> is released by the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Council, recommending greater resources be deployed on the issues of Aboriginal substance misuse, community violence and suicide. It notes that many of these issues were raised in the National Aboriginal Health Strategy (1989) but "there was insufficient commitment to action following the 1989 strategy".

2002: The NHMRC Road Map: a strategic framework for improving Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health through research < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=914a1604-5be8-42a5-b39c-fd66f2b9a707&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> is released, recommending that research needs to be targeted towards the major causes and risks of poor health for Indigenous Australians - specifically chronic diseases, injury (including assault and suicide), mental health, drug and alcohol abuse, communicable diseases and maternal and child health.

2003: The 4th edition of the biennial report The health and welfare of Australia's Indigenous Peoples 2003, is published by the ABS and the AIHW.

2004: A Canadian study reports that the quality of life of Australian Aborigines is the second-worst in the world, while the general Australian population ranks fourth-best in the world.

2005: The Australian Government appears again before the UN Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which expresses serious concern < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=8694b96a-a3ef-4763-be36-d7897c19d32c&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17> about the abolition of ATSIC, the lack of genuine progress in native title, the continuing over-representation of indigenous peoples in prisons and the extreme inequities between indigenous peoples and others in the areas of employment, housing, health, education and income.

The biennial report from the ABS and AIHW shows that "overall, estimated expenditure on health services provided to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples during 2001-02 was $3,901 per person -18% higher than the estimated expenditure on services delivered to non-indigenous Australians - which was due to high rates of care for Aboriginal people "involving dialysis and hospitalisations for other potentially preventable chronic conditions".

2006: Release of Ending family violence and abuse in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities - Key issues, An overview paper of research and findings by the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=1f03c70d-b35b-4569-86bf-967f0be0043c&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, 2001 - 2006

Release of Breaking the Silence: Creating the Future. Addressing child s-xual assault in Aboriginal communities in NSW. Report put together by the Aboriginal Child S-xual Assault Taskforce, a group set up by the NSW government following recommendations made in 2001.

2007: Little Children are Sacred < http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=d08991b5-3279-49b1-a22e-fd1721f87c23&rid=cf0044be-070a-4486-bd3b-1109bff34f17>, co-authored by Pat Anderson and Rex Wild QC, is handed down. The Board of Inquiry headed up by the pair was created by the Northern Territory Government in August 2006 in order to investigate allegations of s-xual abuse of Aboriginal children. The report identifies the keys to solving the problem: education and reducing alcohol consumption.

--
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

[alexanderhayes]

Yes Bill.

So long and now they say now.

*
*
---

I'm saying it is time just to what extent and with whom. Yes I agree
with your distinctions.

On Jun 26, 6:46 pm, "Bill Kerr" <billk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi alex,
>
> there is moral panic, which is a beatup (fear of web) and moral panic, which
> is not a beat up (aboriginal child abuse)
>
> the situation of indigeneous australians is not a beat up
> suggest you read some noel pearson

> *http://tinyurl.com/2eneyk
> *http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralia...

>
> in response to this comment:
> And what do you think of the idea that Indigenous Australian's have
> need for emergency intervention to live their lives in their
> communities with education as the ticket of divisiveness for those
> deemed truant ? Drunk ? Different ?
>
> Have WE no shame ?

> *
> *--
> Bill Kerrhttp://billkerr2.blogspot.com/http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
> skype: billkerr2006

>
> On 6/25/07, alexanderhayes <alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's amazing that the SM still manages to scare monger this late in
> > the pre-election with this sort of rubbish -
>

> >http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/dont-get-caught-up-in-your-own-web...

[alexanderhayes]

Fair enough limitlessness.

I'll retain your Bloglines status based on your business acumen.

> Existence of a tool does not confirm its usefulness.<

Love it.

No one's called me that for a while now.

|headbutt| ouch :-)

On Jun 26, 3:46 pm, "Kylie Rowsell" <kyl...@huntercouncils.com.au>
wrote:

[alexanderhayes]

.....then you could add - http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lifematters/stories/2001/316060.htm

Or more cryptically - http://alexanderhayes.com/blog/?p=13

On Jun 26, 7:33 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *30 years of reports into Aboriginal Australia*

> List compiled by Marika Webb-Pullman, Jane Nethercote and Sophie Vorrath
>
> We're constantly told about the numerous reports over recent decades
> highlighting the state of Aboriginal Australia that have been ignored or
> filed away.
>
> Last year we wondered, how many reports, and what did they say? So we
> compiled a list of at least 25 (mainly government) reports on the subject.
> Today we update it:
>

> *1977:** Final report on alcohol problems of Aboriginals*, an Australian
> parliamentary report, is released.
>
> *1979:** Aboriginal Health*, a report by the House of Representatives
> Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs (HRSCAA), is released. It* **notes
> <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=c7619868-72be...>* that the "standard of health of Aborigines was still far lower than the

>
> majority of Australians" and that "little progress had been made in raising
> it". And its chairman Philip Ruddock notes: "When innumerable reports on the
> poor state of Aboriginal health are released there are expressions of shock
> or surprise and outraged cries for immediate action. However ... the
> appalling state of Aboriginal health is soon forgotten until another report
> is released."
>

> *1980:* The* Program Effectiveness Report*, an internal Commonwealth

> Government report (never publicly released) considers indigenous involvement
> in Aboriginal health policy development, the introduction of specific
> indigenous health initiatives and the existing arrangements for funding and
> administration of indigenous health.
>

> *1981:* The Commonwealth Government initiates a $50 million five-year*
> Aboriginal
> Public Health Improvement Program* focusing on unsatisfactory environmental

> conditions associated with inadequate water, sewerage and power systems.
>

> *&Royal Commission Report of Inquiry <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=67220b33-1834...>* into the death of Bruce Thomas Leslie, the Aboriginal man who was wrongly

>
> diagnosed as being drunk by ambulance officers and was taken to Tamworth
> police station. An X-ray later showed he in fact had a fractured skull.
> Leslie died of a brain haemorrhage.
>

> *1982:** Strategies to help overcome the problems of Aboriginal town
> camps,*an HRSCAA report, is released.
>
> A report looking at the disproportionate number of Aboriginal people* charged
> with minor offences <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=145be9aa-b021...>* is released by the SA Office of Crime Statistics releases. Findings

>
> include the fact that more than 58% of all defendants appearing on
> drunkenness, vagrancy, offensive behaviour and liquor-related charges in
> courts outside the Adelaide metropolitan area are Aborigines, even though
> this racial group constitutes less than 2% of the rural population.
>

> *1988:* Australia has violated the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,

> according to a United Nations official sent to Australia to investigate the
> conditions of Aborigines.
>

> *1989:** &A National Aboriginal Health Strategy <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=2a817c32-ab39...>*, the landmark final report of the National Aboriginal Health Strategy

>
> Working Party (NAHSWP), is presented to the Joint Ministerial Forum. It

> determines* primary health <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=67a95779-5fbc...>* care is one of the key strategies for addressing Aboriginal health

>
> disadvantage and identifies the need to develop more collaborative health
> service planning processes. It also devotes a chapter to the impact of
> substance abuse.
>

> *1991:* The final report of the* &Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in
> Custody <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=553cfafc-f824...>* (RCADC), which investigated 99 deaths of Aborigines in custody over a

>
> nine-year period, is released. It finds that the disproportionate rate at
> which Aboriginal people are arrested was the major and most immediate cause
> of these deaths, and also reveals a history of racism and state control of
> indigenous communities. It makes 339 recommendations.
>
> The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) launches

> the* &National
> Inquiry into Racist Violence <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=4fdb8392-f4e0...>**,* which concludes that racist violence against Aborigines and Torres

>
> Strait Islanders is endemic, nationwide and very severe.
>

> *1992:* The Commonwealth Government announces a $150 million five-year

> funding package, principally for the establishment of Aboriginal-controlled
> drug and alcohol services.
>

> *1993:* Health facilities available for Aborigines and Torres Strait

> Islanders should be completely revamped, according to a report tabled in
> Parliament. The report, by the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health
> Policy Unit and the Health Department, finds that Aboriginal mortality is
> 3-4 times than the rest of the community, that mortality rates from
> pneumonia are ten times higher than of the population as a whole and that
> mortality rates from diabetes are nine times that of the population as a
> whole.
>

> *1994 :** A National Aboriginal Health Strategy: An Evaluation* finds that

> Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders face the health hazards of a hostile
> and inadequate physical environment (contaminated water, poor sanitation,
> and unsafe housing, transport and work conditions) and argues that "setting
> up committees will resolve nothing" - what is needed is a bold and clear
> national initiative that will "step over the shambles" of previous efforts.
>

> *&The Report to the National Committee to Defend Black Rights:& &Aboriginal

> and Torres Strait Islander Custodial Deaths Between May 1989 and January

> 1994 <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=a24f17fb-254c...>* is released, finding that the the national rate of Aboriginal custodial

>
> deaths has not decreased and that many of those who have died have done so
> because key areas of reform highlighted by the RCIADIC have not taken place.
>

> *1995:** The Alcohol Report: Race Discrimination, Human Rights and the
> Distribution of Alcohol* exposes alcohol misuse and its impact on Aboriginal

> communities in the Northern Territory and highlights the lack of
> consultation between the NT Liquor Commission and indigenous communities,

> recommending amendments to the* Liquor Act (1978)* to allow Aboriginal

> communities more control over the provision of alcohol to their communities.
>

> *1996:* The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health and Welfare
> Information Unit (ATSIHWIU) undertakes a review to develop a* National Plan
> for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Information*.
>
> *1997:** The Health and Welfare of Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait
> Islander Peoples* - a joint publication of the Australian Bureau of

> Statistics and the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare - reveals that
> "almost four in ten indigenous households were estimated to have either
> insufficient income to meet basic needs (even before taking housing into
> account), or not enough income to afford adequate housing."
>

> *1998:** Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Program <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=cdfabe9b-5524...>**,* a National Audit Office performance audit of the Department of Health

>
> and Aged Care, reports that the life expectancy at birth of Aboriginals and
> Torres Strait Islanders is 15-20 years lower than all Australians, that for
> all causes of death combined there were 3.5-4 times more deaths than
> expected among Indigenous people, and that indigenous people are 2-3 times
> more likely to be hospitalised.
>

> *1999:** &National Aboriginal Health Strategy - delivery of housing and
> infrastructure to Aboriginal and &Torres Strait& Islander communities <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=7965ab76-3094...>*, a National Audit Office performance audit of the Aboriginal and Torres

>
> Strait Islander Commission, reports that a lack of basic facilities, such as
> access to adequate housing, water and waste removal, is contributing to the
> high morbidity rate of indigenous Australians and that ATSIC was not
> administering the housing program in a timely, costly or efficient manner.
>

> *2000:** &Health is life <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=b72ccbc5-1240...>*, the House of Representatives Standing Committee on Family and Community

>
> Affairs final report on indigenous health issues, finds a "lack of clear
> delineation of responsibility for indigenous health," and that the parties,
> particularly the states, indulge "wherever possible" in shifting the onus
> for payment to another sector and that "the lack of any real efforts to
> integrate community involvement into the planning and delivery of health and
> related services" has been been one of the biggest barriers to progress.
>
> The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, in a report on

> Australia's treatment of its i*ndigenous population <http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=edeb97fc-76a8...>*, notes that "mandatory sentencing schemes appear to target offences that

>
> are committed disproportionately by indigenous Australians" in Western

> Australia and the Northern Territory and remains concerned by "the extent of...
>
> read more »

[alexanderhayes]

I am not suggesting that the latter is a beat-up Bill.

I'm pointing to my feelings as to what appears to me as ill-informed
action shifting from drought, to unions and no doubt eventually to
education.

Heart strings stuff. I'm sitting in a community who are party to this
politic.

Right this instant - http://www.nswlearnscope.com/directions-futures

I've lived a thousand accounts of my Indigenous students young and old
who have been subject to all sorts of reform and intervention since
day dot.

Noel speaks clearly. So does Dr. Evelyn Scott. Gary Taylor. Mother
Yarran.

Tanks for the lead.

On Jun 26, 6:46 pm, "Bill Kerr" <billk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> hi alex,
>
> there is moral panic, which is a beatup (fear of web) and moral panic, which
> is not a beat up (aboriginal child abuse)
>
> the situation of indigeneous australians is not a beat up
> suggest you read some noel pearson

> *http://tinyurl.com/2eneyk
> *http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralia...

>
> in response to this comment:
> And what do you think of the idea that Indigenous Australian's have
> need for emergency intervention to live their lives in their
> communities with education as the ticket of divisiveness for those
> deemed truant ? Drunk ? Different ?
>
> Have WE no shame ?

> *
> *--
> Bill Kerrhttp://billkerr2.blogspot.com/http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
> skype: billkerr2006

>
> On 6/25/07, alexanderhayes <alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's amazing that the SM still manages to scare monger this late in
> > the pre-election with this sort of rubbish -
>

> >http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/dont-get-caught-up-in-your-own-web...

[Janet Hawtin]

On 6/26/07, alexanderhayes <alexander...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes Bill.
> So long and now they say now.

Its more that what they are saying is borked that worries me.
It is partly a land grab and that is debilitating and corrupt in itself.

However these problems are a reflection of who WE are for these communities
I feel we need to change US. If a specific community's primary
experience of AU culture/infrastructure is via gaol then it is not
surprising that the behaviours they learn are related to that
experience. It is how wider AU expresses power.
I feel that is connected to how people express power for themselves.
What WE represent to them, what we model, what aspects of our culture
are interfaces with theirs and what they mean in terms of hope power
and opportunity to build and mesh.
We start with the view from here (As this is also..), we do not start
with the view from there. Doing anything AT someone else assumes you
have the power to make them do what you want. It is not about enabling
them to make good choices it is about controlling them.

If a community's experience of US via gaol is death, prejudice, sex as
power, and closed loop poverty then it is hard for us to tell the
community what we expect of them. We do not walk the talk. Deaths in
custody are a current problem. Arrest for swearing can lead to death.
There is no justice around those events.
The proposals suggest tying a person's access to income and family to
agency judgement about whether they are 'keeping the peace'.
How can that be just given the problems with arbitrary law?

Our interfaces with these communities are not reliable or empowering
or conducive to building trust they are also broadcast systems which
largely see Aboriginal culture as different=deficient. Much of our
research focuses on the negative.
We do not hear these communities. We do not resource them and we do
not celebrate their wins and their goals. We do not value their
languages.

What values are built in to our choices re funding education health
and land and justice. What values apply in gaol? Which values are real
for their experiences of au culture? Perhaps from their view it is
hard not to absorb that it is about violence death and sex as power?
and about poverty, being a negative statistic and having no access to
the means to change things holistically. Not being able to see a way
out.

We are crafting both ourselves and our aboriginal cultures around
negative values.
If these systems model power and violence we are making it normal for them.
So I feel any plan needs to be about who we all are.
We cannot TELL them their normal experience is not normal
How do these families find inclusive reliable constructive power in
what ways to we make those values a part of our collective fabric.

Instead of saying "this is the level of policing you should expect",
"this is the level of education you should be receiving", "No you
don't have to accept being raped or sold" Very negative hopes. What
are their positive hopes.
What is beautiful and constructive and powerful and needed by us in
those communities. Why do we love them constructively - How do we show
that in our policies and practice and daily choices. Include
Aboriginal culture in the positive not include them in itemisation of
how we feel they might be flawed.
They have to be involved in recognising what is beautiful constructive
possible creative and hopeful about who they are and who they can be
and how that makes them powerful individually and collectively.

eg. dont suggest they take out 100k loans for houses on tenuous 99 year lease.
how about training in strawbale and mudbrick and power and plumbing
and mechanics and solar and wind power. skills which make sense and
value in a remote context. skills which fit with being able to locate
and work with their context.
trades in green power to feed the grid? or even just to reduce the
cost of diesel.

can we promote the funky things happening in schools to other schools
so that the kids and teachers can see each other doing great things.
being funny. learning.
community music is great and powerful.
Alex what can we do?

i paint my furniture because i lived for a bit on a community near yuendumu
i was inspired by the yuendumu doors. how do I tell them that their
painting inspires me. They are no longer at the community they are in
a museum
that is a bit sad to me because they were painted to teach the kids
stories of their places. they were deteriorating. fair enough, but it
feels like a pattern.
how do we make it possible for rich culture to accrue in situ.

What do we have access to which we take for granted which make it
possible to make good social fabric. Are we committed to hearing
whether those things are useful in good outcomes for their social
fabric, do they need different things? What does empowering
subsistence look like? How do we hear differently? How do we share the
languages.

Does our government have a social agenda or just the mining one as
Alex suggests. It certainly feels like a response to the women
blocking the dump.
http://lucychili.blogspot.com/

[Lorriman, Tony]

Wow Kylie, after reading the explanation in Wikipedia I can identify many, many corporate systems that would fall into this category. ;-)

 

CHeers

 

---

<BR

**********************************************************************
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
**********************************************************************

[Bill Kerr]

on the reports, once again, I take my lead from Noel Pearson in that you have to distinguish the main problem or problems from the other problems and then take action - a list of reports without analysis of their content does not do that (brief descriptions is not analysis)
http://tinyurl.com/2eneyk

"If you acknowledge that grog is a problem but you don't give it emphasis, priority or focus, then it is likely you will do nothing about it.

This is the story of Aboriginal policy and Aboriginal leadership in this country. We all have said that grog is a problem, but we have not given it the emphasis or priority or focus it needs for us to get on top of the problem.

Take the royal commission into Aboriginal deaths in custody. It mentioned grog as a significant problem in the story of over-representation of indigenous people in custody. But it did not bring grog into relief. It did not make a confrontation with grog a principal target of policy and action. Grog was just one of a long list of underlying factors. But there are factors and there are factors. Some factors are primary and therefore need to be tackled as primary factors. Grog and drugs must be seen as primary factors.

We are paying the price for the intellectual and policy failure of those royal commissioners of 17 years ago.

The only worthwhile outcome was a report compiled by Marcia Langton, of the commission's Aboriginal issues unit, chaired by Patrick Dodson, called Too Much Sorry Business. This was the only intellectually worthwhile output from that entire wasteful enterprise. Its discussion of grog as a primary problem is as fresh as the Anderson-Wild report just handed down, but it did not play a central role in the royal commission's final report and recommendations.

So 17 years of the connection between grog and child abuse goes by unrecognised by policy. How much of today's problem could have been avoided had we got the thinking and the policy right back then?

The Howard-Brough plan to tackle grog and to provide policing is correct. However, the plan needs to be amended so that there is a concerted strategy to build indigenous social and cultural ownership."

- Bill

[Bill Kerr]

alex wrote:
I'm pointing to my feelings as to what appears to me as ill-informed
action shifting from drought, to unions and no doubt eventually to
education

well, that's a common way of thinking about "government" and in particular "the Howard government" (sigh)

if you read Pearson's article carefully you will note that he does not do that - he identifies the main problems (grog and welfare dependency) and avoids the litany of problems - he supports action on the main problems even though it might be less than perfect

ie. he actually wants to improve things for aboriginal people - rather than complain about how bad the world is, in general

- Bill

On 6/26/07, alexanderhayes <alexander...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Janet Hawtin]

On 6/27/07, Bill Kerr <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:
> on the reports, once again, I take my lead from Noel Pearson in that you
> have to distinguish the main problem or problems from the other problems and
> then take action - a list of reports without analysis of their content does
> not do that (brief descriptions is not analysis)
> http://tinyurl.com/2eneyk
>
>
>
> "If you acknowledge that grog is a problem but you don't give it emphasis,
> priority or focus, then it is likely you will do nothing about it.

the communities i went to were dry.
hope is a problem. policies which make hope and power and constructive
communities
as a reflection of these people back to themselves and a reflection of
what our interfaces communicate back to ourselves so we can modify the
impact of our actions on others

access to interfaces which empower people and make them powerful in
partnership rather than powerful at the expense of are a problem not
just in aboriginal communities but for
any group where the person is defined as a cost and not a resource.
that kind of underlying economic perception about the value of people
whether it is re race, poverty, employment, mental health runs a
thread through the kinds of practices we employ and where we put the
power and commitment in the solutions.

> Take the royal commission into Aboriginal deaths in custody. It mentioned
> grog as a significant problem in the story of over-representation of
> indigenous people in custody. But it did not bring grog into relief. It did
> not make a confrontation with grog a principal target of policy and action.

Alcohol is a problem it is also a symptom.
the people are not dying in gaol from alcohol.
Deaths in custody are a cultural problem about people and justice and
perceptions of value and civil rights.

> The only worthwhile outcome was a report compiled by Marcia Langton, of the
> commission's Aboriginal issues unit, chaired by Patrick Dodson, called Too
> Much Sorry Business. This was the only intellectually worthwhile output from
> that entire wasteful enterprise. Its discussion of grog as a primary problem
> is as fresh as the Anderson-Wild report just handed down, but it did not
> play a central role in the royal commission's final report and
> recommendations.

The title says the most to me. 'Too much sorry business' means to me
that there is no discourse around the funkiness and constructive
aspects of these communities. They cannot hear their potential, we
never talk about it.

> So 17 years of the connection between grog and child abuse goes by
> unrecognised by policy. How much of today's problem could have been avoided
> had we got the thinking and the policy right back then?

Do you not feel that the cultural experience of gaol provides
experience and models of violence and power. What educational
experience and interface is more available to aboriginal communities
than this? Who are we?

[Bill Kerr]

hi janet,

you raise important issues about
- hope
- about alcohol being a symptom as well as a problem in its own right
- take exception with aboriginal leaders like Pat Dodson saying things like "too much sorry business"

all these issues have been comprehensively and eloquently addressed by Pearson

http://www.cyi.org.au/articles.aspx
http://www.cyi.org.au/speeches.aspx
http://www.cyi.org.au/positionpapers.aspx

eg. I just read a couple of recent Pearson articles from the CYI site titled:

When hope is lost we must imagine a future

Where there's life there's Hope

I did summarise one of his earlier articles here:
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/10/noel-pearson.html
Charles Perkins Memorial Oration, On the human right to misery, mass incarceration and early death (October 2001)

From my reading I think he would
- agree with you about hope
- describe symptom thinking as part of the problem because it is too vague and causes despair and  paralysis, he is very clear about this point
- say that saying sorry is important but that action is more important

Before you say that you understand these issues better than Pearson and Dodson then I think you should spend some time reading what they have said in detail - these are very smart people who spend 95%+ of their thinking time on these problems

So how do we account for the fact that Pearson has given qualified support for the recent Howard intervention?

- Bill

[Janet Hawtin]

On 6/27/07, Bill Kerr <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Before you say that you understand these issues better than Pearson and
> Dodson then I think you should spend some time reading what they have said
> in detail - these are very smart people who spend 95%+ of their thinking
> time on these problems

Sending an army against broken families is not dissimilar to a war for
democracy.
Violence to create peace cannot be something which is a coherent
communication because the underlying message is the power of the
violence to shape the future.
Sorry Bill I can see that the intent is sincere but for me there are
other perspectives in this complex situation which feel closer to my
values.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/please-listen-to-us-pm/2007/06/26/1182623905994.html

> So how do we account for the fact that Pearson has given qualified support
> for the recent Howard intervention?

In any situation as achy as this people want to make change.
In a community phyiscal presence is a power in itself.
Some kind of population as an agent of change to change the social
dynamic is probably a good idea. I just wish they were people who
could partner in skills projects, long term contextually relevant
empowerment and collaborative projects real health services real
opportunity to write and craft a future with good stuff in. voices
from peer communities who are winning or doing something funky.
Voices from us that we give a damn and value what their culture is and
the patterns that are different about it which are a part of who we
are.

[Janet Hawtin]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/please-listen-to-us-pm/2007/06/26/1182623905994.html
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/27/1963921.htm

[peter allen]

off topic.........no relation to TEACH and LEARN ONLINE

[Janet Hawtin]

On 6/27/07, peter allen <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> off topic.........no relation to TEACH and LEARN ONLINE

fair enough

[Leigh Blackall]

Off topic? don't read! I find it interesting and informative. I am learning and teaching online

[alexanderhayes]

What ?

I am trying to teach and learn online. I'm sitting here with 1 hour of
satellite credit trying to get wordpress happening here on this server
which is patched together with years of goodwill and naivety.

Off topic ?

Trying to resolve how and what to put in these fields to get the WP to
talk to My Sql.
- http://www.alexanderhayes.com/images/MySql_1.jpg

I've asked Chris Harvey for some direct help. This is all sitting on a
Linux server JameT.

Can I get some help pleeeeease !

Any phone numbers I can ring to get some audio support ?

All this while outside Peter we have cowering kids and commumity
members wondering where and when the goon squads are going to hit.

And Sorry Camps on with a funeral underway.

Best you curl up in your always connected ADSL nest mate. Dont dis me
with off topic.

More this way - http://www.moblog.co.uk/blog/mobdeadly

Off topic.......make me sick.

Da.

[rgrozdanic]

get a grip, alex. peter's right, it is off topic. you've berated ppl yourself for introducing subjects that are outside the usual discourse and this is no different.

geez...

r

[peter allen]

it  Is interesting that,  as Leigh says, I could just hit the delete key and move on,  but what I have found with the  TALO email list is that when multiple threads are happening at once a lot of the  good posts are lost  and not given the consideration they deserve.

and because of this I think we have all self moderated to the point where only one thread happens at a time. 

Of course  the technological solution is to move  the TALO email list to a bulletin board ( phpbb2)  but : - 

a) this would dilute readership immensely.

b)  being a digital vagrant I like the push technology of my email inbox. 

so I believe that a discussion about our  aboriginal  citizens  displaces the discussions I do want to read about.  hence my request  to bring the discussion back to ..well...you pick.... internet availability in the outback?

 

[gnuchris]

I am learning but thats no relation to TEACH and LEARN ONLINE.

lolz gdiad

[gnuchris]

Try this.

Log on to Webmin.

System > Software Packages then click Upgrade now button.

Its the same as running apt-get update which will give you a new list of
software packages that you can install from the internets tubes.

Then back on the software packages page, search for packages Mediawiki
and Wordpress then click install.

P.S hows the package manager on those proprietary systems, lols nice
network that you dont have.

Regards
Chris Harvey
http://chris.superuser.com.au ~ gnuc...@gmail.com Libre Learning
FSF Associate Member http://www.fsf.org

[alexanderhayes]

True Rose.

Its obviously enrolling some people in discourse thats way outside
their register.

As Leigh has pointed to is the fact that TALO encompasses many things
beyond tech. speak, different voices coming in at different times,
cross-flow topics which intersect always somewher within the teaching
and learng context.

I'd have hit the OFF TOPIC prompt many times reading other peoples
stuff a long time ago......difference is I read and move onto what
interest me without the need to sate my egocentric desires for
moderation.

Come on guys. Don't go deeming what appears to you to be off-topic.

> so I believe that a discussion about our aboriginal citizens displaces
the discussions I do want to read about.<

Capital A.

I'm talking internet availability in the outback. That's called
politics.

Speak of them.

On Jun 28, 10:52 am, rgrozdanic <rgrozda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> get a grip, alex. peter's right, it is off topic. you've berated ppl
> yourself for introducing subjects that are outside the usual discourse and
> this is no different.
>
> geez...
>
> r
>

> On 6/28/07, alexanderhayes <alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What ?
>
> > I am trying to teach and learn online. I'm sitting here with 1 hour of
> > satellite credit trying to get wordpress happening here on this server
> > which is patched together with years of goodwill and naivety.
>
> > Off topic ?
>
> > Trying to resolve how and what to put in these fields to get the WP to
> > talk to My Sql.

> > -http://www.alexanderhayes.com/images/MySql_1.jpg

>
> > I've asked Chris Harvey for some direct help. This is all sitting on a
> > Linux server JameT.
>
> > Can I get some help pleeeeease !
>
> > Any phone numbers I can ring to get some audio support ?
>
> > All this while outside Peter we have cowering kids and commumity
> > members wondering where and when the goon squads are going to hit.
>
> > And Sorry Camps on with a funeral underway.
>
> > Best you curl up in your always connected ADSL nest mate. Dont dis me
> > with off topic.
>

> > More this way -http://www.moblog.co.uk/blog/mobdeadly

[rgrozdanic]

bloody hell alex - i'm going to frame this one.  you start off with "true rose" and then proceed to repeat what you said before, giving poor old pete another kick in the pants just cos he said what lots of others must be thinking. he's not saying that the issue is unimportant. he's not even venturing an opinion!  i've got a real thing about undeserved rudeness within talo (which is very different to a smackdown or frank exchange or passionate disagreement or whatever, especially when it's with someone who is such a generous and regular contributor to the group). the sentence about discourse and register was appalling - i'm actually shocked! :-O  makes me think of the stuff janet's saying about how these sorts of things are embedded/absorbed/transmitted in cultures but i dare not go into that partly cos i don't want to start a s**tfight and partly cos the situation is so complex that i'm keeping my mouth shut until i really know what i think and how i feel about the whole thing.

i reckon you shoujld save your outrage and passion and pointy words for the right targets cos this child-abuse-overboard thing is going to get way muddier and emotional and outrageous long before it gets better or clearer.

btw - i really like the idea of taking talo to a forum/bulletin board arrangement. anyone interested in setting one up? this email thing sux.

r

On 6/28/07, alexanderhayes <alexander...@gmail.com> wrote:

[peter allen]

[Leigh Blackall]

Hey, this is Alex and Pete we are talking about. Like Brent said,

"...language is not quite enough for alex and he's always twisting it like a nervous kid with a rubber band, sometimes the band flies of in unexpected directions -- that's what I like about him."

Not that that excuses anyone for flaming anyone else for no good reason.. like Alex did to Pete just now, it was a bit rough and perhaps a sign that Alex is getting more than a bit affected by his work. But its somehow not as bad when Alex does this sort of thing. Its like he's not talking to Pete actually, but to all of us. We know its just a rubber band flying off and that he'll just have a stunned look on his face and laugh along with the rest of us as we nervously consider the feelings of the person who coped it and chink glasses for another swig. I dunno if Pete feels the same, but just wanted to offer that up as a perspective...

About the change for TALO.. I know I wouldn't post or read TALO if it was out of email. I would just forget to check. Email is more immediate and easily manageable with the use of the subject prefix. I dunno why we would need strict threaded discussion.. search easily finds anything that has been said before.

--
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539

[peter allen]

 

Damn! -  I had typed a dazzling riposte  full of wit, insight and  magnamity, but Gmail had a burp and lost it all.

 

I couldnt be stuffed typing it all in again.   So Alex, can we just continue as though  you've been rebuffed ok? :)

 

 

[Leigh Blackall]

darn! I was looking forward to that.

On 6/28/07, peter allen <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Damn! -  I had typed a dazzling riposte  full of wit, insight and  magnamity, but Gmail had a burp and lost it all.

 

I couldnt be stuffed typing it all in again.   So Alex, can we just continue as though  you've been rebuffed ok? :)

 

 

[alexanderhayes]

I bet :-)

On Jun 28, 4:21 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> darn! I was looking forward to that.
>
> On 6/28/07, peter allen <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>

> > Damn! - I had typed a dazzling riposte<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riposte>
> > full of wit, insight and* *magnamity, but Gmail had a burp and lost it

> > all.
>
> > I couldnt be stuffed typing it all in again. So Alex, can we

> > just continue as though you've been rebuffed<http://dict.die.net/rebuffed/>ok? :)

[alexanderhayes]

No worries Peter.

For a moment there I thought there was going to be a fire. We are all
past that I'd imagine. I sat in front of a pretty terrific one last
night full of laughs and stories of TALO and the world.

:-)

On Jun 28, 3:53 pm, "peter allen" <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Damn! - I had typed a dazzling riposte<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riposte>

> full of wit, insight and* *magnamity, but Gmail had a burp and lost it all.

>
> I couldnt be stuffed typing it all in again. So Alex, can we just continue

> as though you've been rebuffed <http://dict.die.net/rebuffed/> ok? :)

[Bill Kerr]

well, do ppl on this list want to talk about the need for decisive action in connection with aboriginal child abuse in some communities, or not?

another great article by Pearson in today's Australian

"Strangely - but if you adopted an old leftist analysis it should not be surprising - the greatest impediment to the policies that are needed to relieve suffering is the confusion of those parts of the middle class who think themselves progressive. And it is particularly that section of the progressive middle class who are involved in the so-called helping industries who most contribute to the misery of those whom they believe they are helping"
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralian/comments/an_avoidable_misery/
http://tinyurl.com/2cmses

Read the whole thing

"web2.0" is fucked IMO if all it does is connect people but as a result of that connection there is no actually deepening of analysis or real understanding of the vital issues of our times - the tower of babel writ large
- Bill

[Leigh Blackall]

Is it web2.0 or a impotent middle class? I'm starting to notice in the web2.0 backlash a technocentric dismissal based on issues that are far deeper than the technologies of 2.0

In the article Bill points to

Whatever view we take, my thought is this: what policies do we need so that all avoidable suffering is avoided in our society? We cannot remove evil from the world and I am not basing our hopes of escaping avoidable suffering on supra-human powers. I am asking us to use our considerable human powers to escape avoidable suffering.

Is it really a question of policy? I'd point to Artichoke's most recent post to say that it most certainly is not. Is the call for better policy not evidence of an impotent middle class hiding behind a technology, a process, an institution that has replaced "art and thou", you and I, we?

Like Artichoke I keep thinking about Illich's social critiques, and obviously agree that we must over come our reliance on institutions and somehow reconnect our respective person to person and community spirits. And if there is one policy that stands in the way of that, it is surely the policy of policy!

[Brent]

http://ideant.typepad.com/ideant/2006/02/in_defense_of_t.html

br3nt.

------------------------------
http://greymatter.co.nz
http://cite.org.nz

On 6/30/07, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it web2.0 or a impotent middle class? I'm starting to notice in the web2.0 backlash a technocentric dismissal based on issues that are far deeper than the technologies of 2.0

In the article Bill points to

Whatever view we take, my thought is this: what policies do we need so that all avoidable suffering is avoided in our society? We cannot remove evil from the world and I am not basing our hopes of escaping avoidable suffering on supra-human powers. I am asking us to use our considerable human powers to escape avoidable suffering.

Is it really a question of policy? I'd point to Artichoke's most recent post to say that it most certainly is not. Is the call for better policy not evidence of an impotent middle class hiding behind a technology, a process, an institution that has replaced "art and thou", you and I, we?

Like Artichoke I keep thinking about Illich's social critiques, and obviously agree that we must over come our reliance on institutions and somehow reconnect our respective person to person and community spirits. And if there is one policy that stands in the way of that, it is surely the policy of policy!

On 6/30/07, Bill Kerr < bill...@gmail.com> wrote:

well, do ppl on this list want to talk about the need for decisive action in connection with aboriginal child abuse in some communities, or not?

another great article by Pearson in today's Australian

"Strangely - but if you adopted an old leftist analysis it should not be surprising - the greatest impediment to the policies that are needed to relieve suffering is the confusion of those parts of the middle class who think themselves progressive. And it is particularly that section of the progressive middle class who are involved in the so-called helping industries who most contribute to the misery of those whom they believe they are helping"
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralian/comments/an_avoidable_misery/
http://tinyurl.com/2cmses

Read the whole thing

"web2.0" is fucked IMO if all it does is connect people but as a result of that connection there is no actually deepening of analysis or real understanding of the vital issues of our times - the tower of babel writ large
- Bill

On 6/29/07, alexanderhayes < alexander...@gmail.com> wrote:

No worries Peter.

For a moment there I thought there was going to be a fire. We are all
past that I'd imagine. I sat in front of a pretty terrific one last
night full of laughs and stories of TALO and the world.

:-)

On Jun 28, 3:53 pm, "peter allen" < pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Damn! -  I had typed a dazzling riposte< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riposte>
> full of wit, insight and*  *magnamity, but Gmail had a burp and lost it all.
>
> I couldnt be stuffed typing it all in again.   So Alex, can we just continue
> as though  you've been rebuffed <http://dict.die.net/rebuffed/> ok? :)

--

[alexanderhayes]

Your a friggin genius GNU Chris.

Thanks to you and Janet we now have the Parnngurr kids growing
conversation in a Wordpress blog that I've been helping hack with the
teachers.

We somehow got the the Media Wiki working too and in between
concreting and sitting down by the river with the mob it's all rich
and alive.....thankyou :-)

Sincerely, you have made a huge difference - no longer will these kids
create word docs. and lose them in the share drive.

On Jun 28, 1:49 pm, gnuchris <gnuch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Try this.
>
> Log on to Webmin.
>
> System > Software Packages then click Upgrade now button.
>
> Its the same as running apt-get update which will give you a new list of
> software packages that you can install from the internets tubes.
>
> Then back on the software packages page, search for packages Mediawiki
> and Wordpress then click install.
>
> P.S hows the package manager on those proprietary systems, lols nice
> network that you dont have.
>
> Regards

> Chris Harveyhttp://chris.superuser.com.au~ gnuch...@gmail.com Libre Learning
> FSF Associate Memberhttp://www.fsf.org

>
> On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 19:41 -0700, alexanderhayes wrote:
> > What ?
>
> > I am trying to teach and learn online. I'm sitting here with 1 hour of
> > satellite credit trying to get wordpress happening here on this server
> > which is patched together with years of goodwill and naivety.
>
> > Off topic ?
>
> > Trying to resolve how and what to put in these fields to get the WP to
> > talk to My Sql.

> > -http://www.alexanderhayes.com/images/MySql_1.jpg

>
> > I've asked Chris Harvey for some direct help. This is all sitting on a
> > Linux server JameT.
>
> > Can I get some help pleeeeease !
>
> > Any phone numbers I can ring to get some audio support ?
>
> > All this while outside Peter we have cowering kids and commumity
> > members wondering where and when the goon squads are going to hit.
>
> > And Sorry Camps on with a funeral underway.
>
> > Best you curl up in your always connected ADSL nest mate. Dont dis me
> > with off topic.
>

> > More this way -http://www.moblog.co.uk/blog/mobdeadly

[alexanderhayes]

Hey Rose.

Please dont take my points as undeserved rudeness.

What I was getting at is that your right about the Peter's assertion
that it's off topic......perhaps it was just the way it was phrased as
a retort and a dismissive.....that concerns me ......I thought TALO
had a wide register of topics which intersect and affect the way we
teach and learn online and off.

Many of us are moderators.

If email dosent work then why use it ? I ave never sent nor received
anything in TALO at all....I go here directly from Google.....I
reserve emails for less important matters.

I have reserved my thoughts and used them elsewhere regarding the
Aboriginal_Babies_Overboard issue. I'll continue to do so considering
that I'm sitting here in the camp with the mob and will try and not
let my feelings spill into my online community dialogue.

Try being the operative.

On Jun 28, 4:20 pm, rgrozdanic <rgrozda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> bloody hell alex - i'm going to frame this one. you start off with "true
> rose" and then proceed to repeat what you said before, giving poor old pete
> another kick in the pants just cos he said what lots of others must be
> thinking. he's not saying that the issue is unimportant. he's not even
> venturing an opinion! i've got a real thing about undeserved rudeness
> within talo (which is very different to a smackdown or frank exchange or
> passionate disagreement or whatever, especially when it's with someone who
> is such a generous and regular contributor to the group). the sentence about
> discourse and register was appalling - i'm actually shocked! :-O makes me
> think of the stuff janet's saying about how these sorts of things are
> embedded/absorbed/transmitted in cultures but i dare not go into that partly
> cos i don't want to start a s**tfight and partly cos the situation is so
> complex that i'm keeping my mouth shut until i really know what i think and
> how i feel about the whole thing.
>
> i reckon you shoujld save your outrage and passion and pointy words for the
> right targets cos this child-abuse-overboard thing is going to get way
> muddier and emotional and outrageous long before it gets better or clearer.
>
> btw - i really like the idea of taking talo to a forum/bulletin board
> arrangement. anyone interested in setting one up? this email thing sux.
>
> r
>

[alexanderhayes]

A very important point Bill.

"....."web2.0" is fucked IMO if all it does is connect people but as a

result of that connection there is no actually deepening of analysis
or real understanding of the vital issues of our times - the tower of
babel writ large"

For some, the issues at hand Bill, are no more than headlines.

I suppose in some ways it really depends on where it hits you
personally and how important we feel individually for others who are
subject to things that preclude them from experiencing what we are
priveleged with.......in many instance the privelege is in knowing the
difference.

Truly.

What gets me Bill, is that despite the complexity of the issues in
Aboriginal communities there seems to me to be an over-riding rhetoric
( which we've all heard a million times before) about the need for
others to intervene and make good without ever having stepped into a
community, lived in it nor actually integrated their own selves in any
real shape or form.

I do want to speak to how these issues of current governing policy
affect the futures of communities who are just begining to understand
the power of online connectedness. I do acknowledge the despair and
heartache of children who are subject to the most apalling of living
conditions and all other issues spoken of.

I wish to speak here freely and on-topic acknowledging the connections
that can be grown between communities to bring about awareness, peace
and understanding in turn re-inforcing vigilance, accountability and
open-ness.

Perhaps the point made in FLNW ( a TALO creation ) says it all;

".....Conscious of the fact that others regard online education as
self important navel gazing, the idea that came out of these
discussions was to grow TALO beyond a technology focused online
information gathering group, to build a robust and sustainable model
of engaging others with networked ICT's and other new and emergent
technologies."

The importance of this community goes beyond talking of technology,
rather, actively using it to make a difference in all shapes and
forms.

We can attempt to squeeze and label everything we say as web 2.0 or we
can acknowledge that the conversations here flow far wider.

Cool blog post Bill.I'd like here more about your thoughts on the
matter at hand and I will in exchange spent a few quiet moments doing
the same in my own blog - http://www.alexanderhayes.com/blog

One of these days I'll get my blog-bling back into order.

On Jun 30, 11:59 am, "Bill Kerr" <billk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> well, do ppl on this list want to talk about the need for decisive action in
> connection with aboriginal child abuse in some communities, or not?
>
> another great article by Pearson in today's Australian
>
> "Strangely - but if you adopted an old leftist analysis it should not be
> surprising - the greatest impediment to the policies that are needed to
> relieve suffering is the confusion of those parts of the middle class who
> think themselves progressive. And it is particularly that section of the
> progressive middle class who are involved in the so-called helping
> industries who most contribute to the misery of those whom they believe they

> are helping"http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralia...
> *http://tinyurl.com/2cmses*

>
> Read the whole thing
>
> "web2.0" is fucked IMO if all it does is connect people but as a result of
> that connection there is no actually deepening of analysis or real
> understanding of the vital issues of our times - the tower of babel writ
> large
> - Bill
>

> On 6/29/07, alexanderhayes <alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > No worries Peter.
>
> > For a moment there I thought there was going to be a fire. We are all
> > past that I'd imagine. I sat in front of a pretty terrific one last
> > night full of laughs and stories of TALO and the world.
>
> > :-)
>
> > On Jun 28, 3:53 pm, "peter allen" <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Damn! - I had typed a dazzling riposte<
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riposte>
> > > full of wit, insight and* *magnamity, but Gmail had a burp and lost it
> > all.
>
> > > I couldnt be stuffed typing it all in again. So Alex, can we just
> > continue

> >"..........> as thou you've been rebuffed <http://dict.die.net/rebuffed/> ok? :)

[alexanderhayes]

Nice one Leigh.

Illich and Artichoke sounds like a good communithosophy dish to be
reading right now. Thanks for the links.

Yes IMO the web 2.0 bubbles are leaving stains on the precious leather
upholstery of the middle-2-yupper class and they aint liken it.

We must also in some way acknowledge that the techno-centric ways of
the world have created more than the odd few internet widows and that
the simulation-of-real connection is having it's toll on our selves
and our kids.

It's evident and yet it dosent seem to be a concern. We are too busy
pointing fingers elsewhere.

We can use this technology to build and create connections which bring
about true change to the super-depravities of humanity.

We can.

We are.
As educators using these online learning environments we must try and
not

On Jun 30, 1:16 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it web2.0 or a impotent middle class? I'm starting to notice in the
> web2.0 backlash a technocentric dismissal based on issues that are far
> deeper than the technologies of 2.0
>
> In the article Bill points to
>
> Whatever view we take, my thought is this: what policies do we need so that
> all avoidable suffering is avoided in our society? We cannot remove evil
> from the world and I am not basing our hopes of escaping avoidable suffering
> on supra-human powers. I am asking us to use our considerable human powers
> to escape avoidable suffering.
>
> Is it really a question of policy? I'd point to Artichoke's most

> recent post<http://artichoke.typepad.com/artichoke/2007/06/corruptio-optim.html>to

> say that it most certainly is not. Is the call for better policy not
> evidence of an impotent middle class hiding behind a technology, a process,
> an institution that has replaced "art and thou", you and I, we?
>
> Like Artichoke I keep thinking about Illich's social critiques, and
> obviously agree that we must over come our reliance on institutions and
> somehow reconnect our respective person to person and community spirits. And
> if there is one policy that stands in the way of that, it is surely the
> policy of policy!
>

> On 6/30/07, Bill Kerr <billk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > well, do ppl on this list want to talk about the need for decisive action
> > in connection with aboriginal child abuse in some communities, or not?
>
> > another great article by Pearson in today's Australian
>
> > "Strangely - but if you adopted an old leftist analysis it should not be
> > surprising - the greatest impediment to the policies that are needed to
> > relieve suffering is the confusion of those parts of the middle class who
> > think themselves progressive. And it is particularly that section of the
> > progressive middle class who are involved in the so-called helping
> > industries who most contribute to the misery of those whom they believe they
> > are helping"

> >http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralia...
>
> > *http://tinyurl.com/2cmses*

>
> > Read the whole thing
>
> > "web2.0" is fucked IMO if all it does is connect people but as a result of
> > that connection there is no actually deepening of analysis or real
> > understanding of the vital issues of our times - the tower of babel writ
> > large
> > - Bill
>

[rgrozdanic]

i happened to listen to a lecture by noel pearson on the radio last night

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2007/1955255.htm

 

was very struck by his idea of moral vanity, the mutton class that (i think) bill was talking about, the same group that i would identify with (if i'm honest).

 

it takes courage to look at something you feel passionately about with enough dispassion to see whether there's a flaw in your stance or logic or whatever.  i really enjoyed the lecture - made me cut through some of the knee-jerk stuff i would normally think, made me admire the man for his courage and intelligence and wit.

 

i don't think that sending in the police and military is an especially smart strategy, nor does it send a message of "help" in my mind - instead it frightens the crap out of me. but i'm also very moved by pearson's speech. and i'm pretty much convinced by what he's saying.

 

didn't really want to join this conversation but felt i had to share this link with you given that the speech just happened to come on the radio last night when i jumped in the car and ended when i got to my destination - felt like synchronicity or sumfin.

 

have a good weekend all

 

r

[alexanderhayes]

Thanks Rose.

On topic :-) Yes....Noel's got a point however there's many others who
would have him speared for his beliefs.....that's coming from someone
who admires others who stand up for equality, justice and goodwill.

It's a complex issue and Noel is in the thick of it all. I wonder
where this is all going to end up. Hopefully not in some damn report
speaking of the plight of Indigenous peoples in Australia.

This is an ancient land and an incredibly young "country". It will
take much courage to admit this.

On Jul 1, 10:09 am, rgrozdanic <rgrozda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i happened to listen to a lecture by noel pearson on the radio last nighthttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2007/1955255.htm

[minh mcCloy]

Hey br3nt :)

Thanx for that pointer - just delectable :)

paralogically yrz,
:)
minh