[tcatc] Meridian Township Interurban trail happenings

[Unsworth, Mike]

Natural History Front: The Canada geese have returned. When biking around noon today, I startled a couple of these Airborne Poop Generators. Both flew away. I guess they haven't made nests yet, since they weren't honking and bobbing their necks.

Governmental Front: The Township put up Wetland Use Permit signs on the east side of Okemos Road (and presumably somewhere on Marsh Road]. They announce that on April 26 at 7 p.m. the Planning Commission will review the suitability of building the path through a hundred year floodplain. While trying to find the Committee's agenda (which won't be posted until late Friday at http://tiny.cc/n4o99), I discovered that the DEQ had issued a permit for the project: http://www.deq.state.mi.us/ciwpis/ciwpis.asp?permitnumber=09330061

Mike

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[Tim Potter]

Thanks for the update Mike.  I checked out the east end of the Inter-Urban near the bridge over the rail tracks; there was no permit signage there.  One issue I'd like to throw out there for our group's consideration, possible support; there's approx. 30 ft. of space between the cement wall and the rail tracks; seems like plenty of space to have the trail continue under the rail bridge alongside the tracks. 

Does anyone know if there's a rule against having a trail that close to tracks?  I think there are such paths near active tracks all around the country currently.  Nancy, would you happen to know?  I ask because if they terminate the east end of this trail up the embankment to connect it to the sidewalk on the west-side of Marsh Rd. it'll be 1. a very steep grade to get up to the sidewalk and 2. a great multi-use path ending at a sidewalk with no obvious way to get across Marsh Rd. which is extremely busy in this area.  If the trail could continue along the side of the tracks over to Haslett Rd. where there are bike lanes it would be close to ideal.

Tim

--
*************************
"Where there is a wheel there is a way."
Motto of the Good Roads Movement, early 1900s

**Join the MSU/ E. Lansing Ride of Silence on May 19th, 7 pm:  http://tinyurl.com/y4neq8j

...and the Ride of Silence Cause on Facebook:
http://tinyurl.com/y5zcl7v

[Rory L. Neuner]

Nancy is the expert here, but I vividly remember seeing a trail here
in Michigan that is about 10-12 feet from tracks during a presentation
at the Midwest Trails Conference last year.

In other news I spoke with Susan McGillicuddy and told her the cycling
community would be happy to join her in a celebratory ride once this
is all done. She is also apparently in search of a covered bridge for
the Heart of Michigan trail that would run to Hagadorn. Anyone have a
lead on that?

-Rory

--

Rory L. Neuner
ro...@aya.yale.edu
517.515.3535

[Paul Hamilton]

I am not exactly certain how the connection at Marsh is going to be made myself, but I do recollect earlier discussions of a Phase III on the Interurban that would run along the tracks and ultiimately connect to the on road pathway on Lake Drive (behind my Apartment @ someplace around Carlton, or perhaps just West of there?)- the conversation I had was not too detailed on how the end points would be done-- but which would provide direct access to Lake Lansing and beyond. If anyone happens to run into  Susan before I do, tell her to check with the Calhoun County Road Commssion which has or used to have a "bridge farm" of old/and/or historic bridges that might be suitable for a bikes/ped structure. I do not know if they have any covered ones or not....she might also check with CRAM in general--the last time I had a discussion with someone  needing a used structure---Clinton County just happened to have one un-assembled on their back lot they were willing to give to somebody for a public purpose just for  hauling it away and $1--I think you could place in ad in the CRAM newsletter pretty cheaply, or talk to Bob Peterson at the Ingham County Road Commission--he's on the bridge committee still I think....

[Unsworth, Mike]

The agenda for the April 26 meeting is now online at http://meridiantwpmi.govoffice3.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={70C76F43-4CE4-4CC9-B83B-6C567F4EC8B0}

---

From: tc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hamilton
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:29 PM
To: tc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [tcatc] Meridian Township Interurban trail happenings

[Rory L. Neuner]

Do we want MMATC to write a letter on this to submit at the meeting?

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Unsworth, Mike

[Unsworth, Mike]

Sounds good to me. I plan on attending, so I can deliver it.

[Paul Hamilton]

Nancy--at one time when I was still on the Transportation Planners Council Executive Committee for  ITE, we  had a committee working on a "Rails with Trails" Recommended Practice.

 

I  wasn't directly involved in it since I am not a design engineer, & I don't know what ever happened to it, or even if it ever got off the ground....I will see if i can find out anything about it...its possible Brad Strader knows--he's Chair of the Trasnportation Planners Council now....

 

Will let everyone know if I find out anything....

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Nancy Krupiarz <na...@michigantrails.org> wrote:

There are no official standards that I know of for a trail running that close to active tracks.  I just know the railroad will be vehemently opposed, and I think Bob Moore had already talked to them at one time about it, and that’s why he proposed running it up to the light on Grand River to get across.   Has anyone been talking to Ingham County Parks about all these ideas?  Several of us will be attending the Heart of Michigan meeting on May 5^th and can ask some questions of them then.  We can find out then if the MMATC group can be helpful at this time too.

 

Covered bridges?  When you say run to Hagadorn?  You mean run over Hagadorn on Burcham??    I know the Calhoun Historic Bridge park has old iron bridges but not covered ones.  The covered bridges I’ve heard about have been constructed new.  There are several examples of covered bridges on trails in MI.

 

Nancy Krupiarz

---

From: tc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hamilton
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:29 PM
To: tc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [tcatc] Meridian Township Interurban trail happenings

 

I am not exactly certain how the connection at Marsh is going to be made myself, but I do recollect earlier discussions of a Phase III on the Interurban that would run along the tracks and ultiimately connect to the on road pathway on Lake Drive (behind my Apartment @ someplace around Carlton, or perhaps just West of there?)- the conversation I had was not too detailed on how the end points would be done-- but which would provide direct access to Lake Lansing and beyond. If anyone happens to run into  Susan before I do, tell her to check with the Calhoun County Road Commssion which has or used to have a "bridge farm" of old/and/or historic bridges that might be suitable for a bikes/ped structure. I do not know if they have any covered ones or not....she might also check with CRAM in general--the last time I had a discussion with someone  needing a used structure---Clinton County just happened to have one un-assembled on their back lot they were willing to give to somebody for a public purpose just for  hauling it away and $1--I think you could place in ad in the CRAM newsletter pretty cheaply, or talk to Bob Peterson at the Ingham County Road Commission--he's on the bridge committee still I think....

[Paul Hamilton]

I did a quick search of the ITE web site and didn't find a recommended practive, which doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one being developed or someplace in Committee, but I did find a 2002 Alta Engineering report for FHWA on Rails With Trails Concepts  Practices and Case Study Experience.

 

It is 8.5 MB so I loaded it on the MMATC windows live work space &  reference page-- which many of you should have a sharing link for already......  will see if I can find out anything from Brad the next time I run into him ......the Committee could still be working on this thing if it had enough volunteers to make it happen......

[Tim Potter]

Many thanks again Paul.  Re: the used bridge topic, where do you envision Mer. Twp. could use a used bridge for peds?  Crossing the river near the Park Lk. Rd/ Grand River Ave Intersection perhaps?

On the topic of ped crossings in Mer. Twp.... for many years now I've been thinking Mer. Twp. really needs some sort of safer ped crossing between the Mall and Meijer, like a sky-walk ped bridge, but now that I know how poorly underutilized those are I realize that's not an effective use of limited $$, but perhaps one of those newly approved mid-block crossing LED push-button or motion activated ped crossing lights would be in order (they're in the new MUTCD).  If I've just about hit a number of desperate peds crossing in dark clothing there I can't imagine how many have actually been hit!

Tim

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Paul Hamilton <phis...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nancy--at one time when I was still on the Transportation Planners Council Executive Committee for  ITE, we  had a committee working on a "Rails with Trails" Recommended Practice.

 

I  wasn't directly involved in it since I am not a design engineer, & I don't know what ever happened to it, or even if it ever got off the ground....I will see if i can find out anything about it...its possible Brad Strader knows--he's Chair of the Trasnportation Planners Council now....

 

Will let everyone know if I find out anything....

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Nancy Krupiarz <na...@michigantrails.org> wrote:

There are no official standards that I know of for a trail running that close to active tracks.  I just know the railroad will be vehemently opposed, and I think Bob Moore had already talked to them at one time about it, and that’s why he proposed running it up to the light on Grand River to get across.   Has anyone been talking to Ingham County Parks about all these ideas?  Several of us will be attending the Heart of Michigan meeting on May 5^th and can ask some questions of them then.  We can find out then if the MMATC group can be helpful at this time too.

 

Covered bridges?  When you say run to Hagadorn?  You mean run over Hagadorn on Burcham??    I know the Calhoun Historic Bridge park has old iron bridges but not covered ones.  The covered bridges I’ve heard about have been constructed new.  There are several examples of covered bridges on trails in MI.

 

Nancy Krupiarz

[Paul Hamilton]

I am not certain where or what Susan has in mind for a covered bridge related to Hagadorn. I do know the Township's top prioirty for a new ped bridge is crossing the Red Cedar on the west side of Okemos Road since the sidewalk on the camels back bridge is too narrow, in disrepair and needs to be closed frequently. They've got an active enhancement application in for that, but it was a second prioirty to the Interurban, which I had encouraged them to rush an appllication in for when we still thought we might get ARRA money for an enhancement project.....we got the enhancement project for the Interurban, but not with ARRA money....

 

On the topic of ped crossings at the mall--I agree with you Tim, it is terrible, and only a matter of time before somebody gets nailed there (or on Marsh trying to cross to Target). I have had at least one discussion concerning  potential for some kind of mid-block crossing with a Township official-- although I do not think it will happen based on that discussion....

 

There may be opportunity however with the Grand River/Michigan Ave Alternatives Analysis--they will have drawings done by the end of that study in the fall on ways to improve bike/peds access to where-ever a station stop finally might go for whatever alternative might be selected.....I will be pushing for some type of improvements from within the Tech Committee on that effort, regardless of the alternative selected.....I've   seen a couple of near misses there myself with kids  darting in and out of the center turn lane at dusk and trying to cross.....

[Paul Hamilton]

Nancy--ITE at one time had a Committee working on a recommended practice for designing Trails within Active Railroad Corridors  at the time I was on the Transportation Planners Council Executive Committee for ITE which had some oversight responsiblity for reviewing their draft report. I rotated off the Executive Committee before it ever really got going, but maybe Brad Strader has some idea what happended to it or if the Committee ever made any progress...in the meantime, Alta Enginneering Study done for FHWA has a bunch of case studies on experience with Trails in Active Rail corridors--I didn't spend much time reviewing it--but I posted it for the group in the reference area I created---it may not be a standard, but it might have some examples of designs that have been built which could be used as examples for the Trail......

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Nancy Krupiarz <na...@michigantrails.org> wrote:

I’m sorry which Committee – the ITE Rails with Trails committee or something related to the trail?

 

Thanks Paul

 

Nancy

 

---

[Tim Potter]

For those of you who were unable to open that link here’s a short one that should work:

 

http://tinyurl.com/2a4vj2s

 

I plan on being there this evening to speak in strong support of the extension of the Inter-urban trail east to Marsh Rd.

 

Since this part of the trail was shot down by an adjacent property owner in the past it’s not a no brainer done deal, so if any others from this group can attend it would be much appreciated. 

 

It would also be wonderful if I could present my comments on behalf of our group to the Mer. Twp. Planning Commission.  If you’re all in support of expressing our group’s support of this trail extension pls. let me know before 5 pm today.  At some point we’ll have to come up with a procedure for doing this for future meetings that our members attend.  We also need letter head so that we can also backup our verbal statements with written statements on behalf of our group.

 

Just for confirmation, our next meeting for the MMATC will be May 5th at the Foster Comm. Center, same room as last time unless you hear otherwise.

 

Thanks,

Tim

 

 

********************
Tim Potter
Manager, Bike Service Center
MSU Bikes Service Center
B10 Bessey Hall/ Michigan St. University
Along the N. River Trail, 300 ft. west of Farm Ln. Bridge
E. Lansing, MI 48824-1033

Ph: 517/432-3400
Fax: 517/432-2743
Email: bi...@msu.edu
Web: www.bikes.msu.edu

"Where there is a wheel there is a way."

Motto of the Good Roads Movement, early 1900s

************************************

[Rory L. Neuner]

Tim, I support the letter! I can't make it tonight, but please add my name.

--Rory

[Phil Wells]

I support.

> Email: bi...@msu.edu <mailto:bi...@msu.edu>

> Web: www.bikes.msu.edu
>
>
> "Where there is a wheel there is a way."
>
> Motto of the Good Roads Movement

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement>, early 1900s
>
>
> ************************************
>
> *From:* tc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tc...@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Unsworth, Mike
> *Sent:* Friday, April 23, 2010 2:01 PM
> *To:* phis...@gmail.com; tc...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* RE: [tcatc] Meridian Township Interurban trail happenings

>
> The agenda for the April 26 meeting is now online at
> http://meridiantwpmi.govoffice3.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={70C76F43-4CE4-4CC9-B83B-6C567F4EC8B0

> <http://meridiantwpmi.govoffice3.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7b70C76F43-4CE4-4CC9-B83B-6C567F4EC8B0>}
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* tc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tc...@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Paul Hamilton
> *Sent:* Friday, April 23, 2010 12:29 PM
> *To:* tc...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [tcatc] Meridian Township Interurban trail happenings

> <unsw...@mail.lib.msu.edu <mailto:unsw...@mail.lib.msu.edu>>

> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Natural History Front: The Canada geese have returned. When biking
> around
> >> noon today, I startled a couple of these Airborne Poop Generators.
> Both flew
> >> away. I guess they haven't made nests yet, since they weren't
> honking and
> >> bobbing their necks.
> >>
> >> Governmental Front: The Township put up Wetland Use Permit signs on the
> >> east side of Okemos Road (and presumably somewhere on Marsh Road]. They
> >> announce that on April 26 at 7 p.m. the Planning Commission will
> review the
> >> suitability of building the path through a hundred year floodplain.
> While
> >> trying to find the Committee's agenda (which won't be posted until late
> >> Friday at http://tiny.cc/n4o99), I discovered that the DEQ had issued a
> >> permit for the project:
> >> http://www.deq.state.mi.us/ciwpis/ciwpis.asp?permitnumber=09330061
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups "tcatc" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to tc...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:tc...@googlegroups.com>

> >> Replies are sent to the author of the message NOT to the whole
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> >> is included in the To or CC field.
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *************************
> > "Where there is a wheel there is a way."
> > Motto of the Good Roads Movement, early 1900s
> >
> > **Join the MSU/ E. Lansing Ride of Silence on May 19th, 7 pm:
> > http://tinyurl.com/y4neq8j
> >
> > ...and the Ride of Silence Cause on Facebook:
> > http://tinyurl.com/y5zcl7v
> >
> > --
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>
>
> --
>
> Rory L. Neuner

> ro...@aya.yale.edu <mailto:ro...@aya.yale.edu>

> 517.515.3535
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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[pro...@msu.edu]

  Tim,  I plan to attend.   Lenny

> Email:  <mailto:bi...@msu.edu> bi...@msu.edu

> Web: www.bikes.msu.edu
>
>
> "Where there is a wheel there is a way."
>
>
>
> Motto of the Good Roads Movement

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement> , early 1900s

>
>
> ************************************
>
>
>
> From: tc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Unsworth, Mike
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 2:01 PM
> To: phis...@gmail.com; tc...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [tcatc] Meridian Township Interurban trail happenings
>
>
>
> The agenda for the April 26 meeting is now online at
> http://meridiantwpmi.govoffice3.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC

> <http://meridiantwpmi.govoffice3.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7b70C76F43-
> 4CE4-4CC9-B83B-6C567F4EC8B0> &SEC={70C76F43-4CE4-4CC9-B83B-6C567F4EC8B0}

> <mailto:tcatc%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/tcatc?hl=en
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *************************
>> "Where there is a wheel there is a way."
>> Motto of the Good Roads Movement, early 1900s
>>
>> **Join the MSU/ E. Lansing Ride of Silence on May 19th, 7 pm:
>>  http://tinyurl.com/y4neq8j
>>
>> ...and the Ride of Silence Cause on Facebook:
>> http://tinyurl.com/y5zcl7v
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Rory L. Neuner
> ro...@aya.yale.edu
> 517.515.3535
>
>
> --
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[Tim Potter]

Quick report; Lenny, Mike, Bob Lovell (one of our newest members - welcome!) and I spoke in support of the extension of the trail this evening. There were also about 3 speaking concerned about safety issues, crime, etc., but not saying they were opposed to it just that they wanted some visual/ security barriers from it.  The commissioners then had lots of discussion on the points raised by the residents and none were opposed, just some echoing concerns for safety of kids playing in their backyards and parents who'd now have to be watching them more carefully in the back like the front yard, etc.

The director of Public Works, Ray Severy, said that the railroad's required setback isn't available under the bridge, so that's why the path has to go up the embankment at the east end and tie into the side path.  I'd like to know what that setback is since 30 ft. seems like plenty enough especially if there were a fence installed along the section under the bridge.  Anyone know what the setback distance requirement is?

I'll prepare a letter that everyone can review and sign on to if they support it ASAP.  Sounds like they're going to vote on it at their next meetg.

Tim

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:05 PM, <pro...@msu.edu> wrote:

  Tim,  I plan to attend.   Lenny

> For those of you who were unable to open that link here's a short one that
> should work:
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2a4vj2s
>

[Rory L. Neuner]

Thanks for the update, Tim! Very happy to hear that there were not
significant objections. Pass along that letter when it is done and let
us know how we can help!

--Rory

--

Rory L. Neuner
ro...@aya.yale.edu
517.515.3535