What if human parents treated their children like ...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
human children ...
---
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/what_kind_of_parent_is_god.htm
---
... so, I'm thinkin', what if the relationship between
parents and our children was just like god's supposed
relationship with his human children, what would that
be like ... let's see ...
we'd be invisible, of course.
we'd require our children to worship us (goes without
saying).
we'd demand our children give us ten percent of their
earnings.
we'd threaten our children with eternal damnation and
death.
we'd sicken our children with diseases.
we'd refuse to talk to our children.
we'd require our children to believe we exist and we'd
furnish them no evidence whatsoever that we exist.
we'd require our children to act as if we exist and we'd
maintain -total silence-, leaving them alone and on their
own, just like they would be were we not to exist.
we'd create a world which looks -exactly- like a world
in which we don't exist.
we'd have some of our children claim that one of our
children dying/living/going to be with us was somehow
relevant to our children in some way in that one of our
children suffering made up for all the bad deeds of our
other children - believe we did this -or- suffer immortal
torment.
we'd claim goodness while acting like invisible and silent
evil beings who couldn't care less about our children.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
TAR
>
> ... the supposed God (of myth) treats his so-called
> human children ...
>
> ---
> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/what_kind_of_parent_is_god.htm
> ---
>
> ... so, I'm thinkin', what if the relationship between
> parents and our children was just like god's supposed
> relationship with his human children, what would that
> be like ... let's see ...
I'm just dropping into this group today for the first time, but I'll
give it a shot. Keep in mind that I was raised as a Roman Catholic, I
truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also happen to believe
in reincarnation and karma.
> we'd be invisible, of course.
God is not invisible. He is everywhere. Look into the face of a baby.
That is God. Look at the leaves on a tree. That is God. Look at the
earth, our bodies. That is God. Look into your heart. God is there.
> we'd require our children to worship us (goes without
> saying).
God does not require us to worhip Him. God wants you to know Him. When
you do, you will love Him.
> we'd demand our children give us ten percent of their
> earnings.
Don't know about that. I don't particularly agree with this. Maybe
someone else here can address this one.
> we'd threaten our children with eternal damnation and
> death.
I don't believe that God does this. I feel that it is not eternal, but
it is a warning that when we die, and realize what we have done, we will
punish ourselves until we are able to move beyond it and try harder next
time. People who have had near death experiences, and who have tried to
take their own lives, come back talking about what can only be described
as a hell.
> we'd sicken our children with diseases.
We sicken ourselves with diseases. Karma.
> we'd refuse to talk to our children.
Absolutely wrong. God talks to us all the time. Sadly, all too many of
us turn a deaf ear.
> we'd require our children to believe we exist and we'd
> furnish them no evidence whatsoever that we exist.
Are you kidding? Evidence is everywhere, in every breath that we take.
If you don't look, you won't see. Seek and ye shall find. It's like
not believing what is behind a door because you haven't opened it. Once
you do, you can no longer deny the existence of what's behind it because
it is then clearly standing before you.
> we'd require our children to act as if we exist and we'd
> maintain -total silence-, leaving them alone and on their
> own, just like they would be were we not to exist.
Again, there is no silence. God speaks loudly and clearly. If you
don't listen, you won't hear Him. And we are never alone. He resides
within each of us. Again, seek and ye shall find. He's always there.
You just have to look.
> we'd create a world which looks -exactly- like a world
> in which we don't exist.
You see it as a world in which He doesn't exist, and I see his existence
in everything... in every moment of every day.
> we'd have some of our children claim that one of our
> children dying/living/going to be with us was somehow
> relevant to our children in some way in that one of our
> children suffering made up for all the bad deeds of our
> other children - believe we did this -or- suffer immortal
> torment.
God tried to show us how much he loved us by sacrificing his son in
order for us to find grace for our sins. That is pure love. And that
is a gift. If you don't take the gift and die, you will then understand
why you should have taken it. Because it is then when your eyes will
open and you will see, and fully understand, how you have gone against
God, universal laws, and how you will have to return to schoolhouse
earth in order to learn your lessons.
> we'd claim goodness
God is ALL goodness.
> while acting like invisible
God is everywhere.
> and silent
God constantly speaks to everyone of us, but many will not listen.
> evil beings
Evil? God is the opposite of evil.
>who couldn't care less about our children.
God gave us life. God gave us a place to live, air to breathe, food to
eat, people to love. He sacrificed his Son. He gave us free will.
When we screw up, we willingly come back in order to learn all of our
karmic lessons. When we do, we will understand. We will be pure
knowledge and pure love, and will no longer need to come back into the
flesh. We can remain in spirit with our Creator, in bliss, eternally.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
>
> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
As always, the key question which you cannot
answer is this -- what is the difference between
a real entity existing apart from you and others
imagining it exists, and you and others just imag-
ining it exists?
You attend church from childhood, and all that you
are taught is believe-believe-believe-believe-believe,
followed by don't doubt-don't doubt-don't doubt-don't
doubt-don't doubt, followed by a load of influenceas
which are so close to being brainwashing as to make
it difficult to distinguish said influences from brainwash-
ing, and what you're left with is either ...
A feeling that everything you've been taught (or at
least most of what you've been taught) is reality ...
... or ...
A feeling that everything you've been taught (or at
least most of what you've been taught) is make
believe.
- - -
Whether you treat God as real or Allah as real or
Zeus as real or Christ as real or Brahma as real or
any other imaginary entity as real, you can ritualize
and sanctify and read scripts and chant and pray
and kneel and ceremonialize and recite endlessly
and you know what?
All you've got to show for all that effort is humans
doing a lot of things, with no God, Allah, Zeus,
Christ, Brahma, or any other imaginary being to
show for all the effort.
I fail to see any substantiation for all you offered,
other than you believing that what you've been
taught is real. It appears as if you would've been
a muslim if you had been born in Mecca, a Hindu
had you been born in New Delhi, or a follower of
Zeus had you been born in ancient Greece. The
act of blind faith is exactly the same, a consequence
of your environment, no more, no less.
If you have any substantiation of some other-worldly
being, please offer it. If all you have are recitations
reflecting the religion you were inculcated in, from
birth, reflecting the society-culture you were raised
in, I view that as evidence of make believe, not reality.
TAR
As I said, if you're not looking, you won't find it. When you do, it's
as plain as day. It's something you see, feel, deeply understand at a
soul level. It's something that is hard to explain if you don't seek
it. As I said, it's like being behind the door, with God. I know Him.
You may not because you have not opened that door. I've tried to put it
in the most simple terms because it really is that simple. It is an
understanding... but it's like trying to explain a good book or a
movie. Until you see it for yourself, until you experience it, no
explanation with be sufficient.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
>
> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
> >
> > "TAR" <tom....@ix.netcom.com> wrote ...
> > >
> > > "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
> > > >
> > > > ... the supposed God (of myth) treats his so-called
> > > > human children ...
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/what_kind_of_parent_is_god.htm
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > ... so, I'm thinkin', what if the relationship between
> > > > parents and our children was just like god's supposed
> > > > relationship with his human children, what would that
> > > > be like ... let's see ...
> > >
> > > I'm just dropping into this group today for the first time, but I'll
> > > give it a shot. Keep in mind that I was raised as a Roman Catholic,
> > > I truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also happen to
> > > believe in reincarnation and karma.
> > >
> > >
> > > > we'd be invisible, of course.
> > >
> > > God is not invisible. He is everywhere. Look into the face of a baby.
> > > That is God. Look at the leaves on a tree. That is God. Look at the
> > > earth, our bodies. That is God. Look into your heart. God is there.
> > >
> > >
> > > > we'd require our children to worship us (goes without
> > > > saying).
> > >
> > > Him. When you do, you will love Him.
> > >
> > >
> > > > we'd demand our children give us ten percent of their
> > > > earnings.
> > >
> > > Don't know about that. I don't particularly agree with this. Maybe
> > > someone else here can address this one.
> > >
> > >
> > > > we'd threaten our children with eternal damnation and
> > > > death.
> > >
> > > I don't believe that God does this. I feel that it is not eternal, but
> > > it is a warning that when we die, and realize what we have done,
> > > we will punish ourselves until we are able to move beyond it and
The door is open for every child, and typically, that's
all a child knows, is God myths (along with other myths
of a society), while growing up. The door of doubt and
disbelief? The goal of the church is to keep that door
shut with a wide array of techniques, all entailing brain-
washing of youth and continued brainwashing reinforce-
ment towards adults.
> I've tried to put it in the most simple terms because it really is
> that simple. It is an understanding... but it's like trying to explain
> a good book or a movie. Until you see it for yourself, until you
> experience it, no explanation with be sufficient.
- - -
---
Words Aren't Enough?
---
Sounds like something a follower of a cult would say.
Exactly. In those very words.
But if all you have are words, and words aren't enough,
then aren't you missing something really critical, like
a superbeing actually existing rather than your just
believing a superbeing exists?
- - -
---
Most are Taught to Believe, From Childhood
---
Put another way, you've been taught to believe, just
like you were, in all likelihood, taught to believe in
Santa Claus. When you were a child, in all likelihood,
you were taught that the Santa Claus characters at
the stores were just Santa's helpers, that the 'real'
Santa Claus was to visit all good children's homes
on Christmas eve. Along with the Santa myth, you
were likely surrounded with a plethora of Santa myth
stories. You probably can remember watching TV
and seeing all that mythos played out, with adults
sanctifying/blessing (treating as real) the myths of
Santa.
Tell me, honestly, doesn't the God myth along with
the associated God myths have the same so-called
'reality' as did the Santa myths before that myth-spell
was snapped by a friend or family member or acquaint-
ance or your own self-awareness that Santa did not
fit in with the nature of 'reality'?
Isn't the only difference between the God myths
and the Santa myths that you've found much in the
ways of admission by former Santa myth followers
that the Santa stories, every last one of them, are
myths (even though you and many Santa myth
doubters 'pretend' they're true when y'all are
around children) ...
... -but- with the God myths, you have a large cadre
of likeminded believers who perform rituals in big
buildings with lots of social functions and ceremon-
ies and myth-readings and sermons and incantations
and ... well, you see, going to a church or cathedral
must be, for you, just like believing in Santa was, for
most, when we were children.
The only difference between the God myths and
the Santa myths is that the God myths are clung to
by many, for life, for they are taught from childhood
that the God myths are their **only hope**, that
God can be their **best friend**, that to disbelieve
risks eternal damnation and is likely to make you
very unhappy in this life.
- - -
---
Mind Control
---
Mind control, that's what you're submitting to, and
you refuse to let go of it because (see above) the
mythical nature of the entire show that has been
presented not only by religious figures, but by fam-
ily members and society at large, all of that makes
the myth seem, if you are unwilling to think about
it, 'real' simply by pretending (or, if you prefer, by
believing) that it is.
- - -
---
Belief Compared to Doubt, Disbelief, Skepticism
---
The mythical nature of the entire show is revealed
only by a clear-minded, doubting, skeptical mind. If
one follows church doctrine and puts all doubt aside,
subordinating it to just believe no matter what, you
are following the same exact path that a child who
clings to belief in Santa Claus follows, even though,
as typically happens, a cousin or a friend or some
teenager has conveyed in no uncertain terms why
adults lie about Santa Claus, why Santa Claus is
myth.
Not likely you'll get much in the way of friends, family,
or persons in churches or cathedrals discussing the
mythical nature of the God stories. Why? 'Cause that
would cut to the very heart of their faith. Without blind
faith, religions would die. Blind faith + childhood brain-
washing is the feast upon which religions feed.
'Tis why religions are so firm in discouraging doubt
and disbelief, so loaded with threats against doubters
and disbelievers, and so thrilled by the concept called
blind faith.
- - -
---
Reasonable Presentment of Alternatives?
---
A reasonable presentment of alternative views on
religious matters, seek that out next time you go to
church or a cathedral. Ponder all the times that alter-
natives to the God myths are presented in a respect-
ful and equal level as are the believe seductions. You
might even consider mentally counting the number
of times belief is promoted + the number of times
doubt and disbelief is discouraged.
Compare those figures to the number of times one
iota of respect for acquiescence to doubt and disbelief,
as an alternative to blind faith, is mentioned.
What you'll find is that belief encouragement and dis-
couragement of doubt and disbelief is pervasive.
What you'll also find is that the number of times doubt
and disbelief is mentioned, practically every (if not every)
time they are, they'll be mentioned as unpleasant risky
inferior options to the views expressed by the church.
- - -
---
Brainwashing and Propagandizing + Social Inducement
+ Welfare/Survival/Propagation of Church Dogma
---
In other words, your ability to actually think rationally
about such matters is, via the technique of brainwash-
ing -and- propagandizing, extinguished (or at least,
that's the intent of the church) every time you walk
through those church or cathedral doors.
That, + social inducement, + the welfare/survival/prop-
agation of church dogma is what the church is about,
to keep their myths afloat, and to demean and dismiss
any alternatives in which the church is *not* at play. Oh,
and via the 'altruism trick', they also use some funds to
help people with earthly needs, though typically, that's
designed to be done with church dogma an adjunct to
the help, the goal being to use the 'altruism trick' to
extend the influence of the church.
TAR
You're talking to the wrong person. I don't necessarily belong to a
church. During my upbringing, church didn't fill me with spirituality.
I have come to this on my own. Because God resides within every one of
us, and the answers are there when you seek them. All you have to do is
look. A church doesn't necessarily help one to do that. But it can.
> > I've tried to put it in the most simple terms because it really is
> > that simple. It is an understanding... but it's like trying to explain
> > a good book or a movie. Until you see it for yourself, until you
> > experience it, no explanation with be sufficient.
>
> - - -
>
> ---
> Words Aren't Enough?
> ---
>
> Sounds like something a follower of a cult would say.
> Exactly. In those very words.
I wouldn't know anything about that. I am not a member of any organized
religion.
> But if all you have are words, and words aren't enough,
> then aren't you missing something really critical, like
> a superbeing actually existing rather than your just
> believing a superbeing exists?
God exists. I don't just believe that God exists. I KNOW that God
exists. But this is like explaining colors to a blind person. How do
you begin? Yet it is understood by others who can see these colors.
They need no further proof to know of its existence.
> Most are Taught to Believe, From Childhood
> ---
>
> Put another way, you've been taught to believe, just
> like you were, in all likelihood, taught to believe in
> Santa Claus.
I was told to go to church because I grew up as a Catholic. However, my
family didn't even believe in God. I suppose that it was just something
that was expected because that's what Catholics do. They didn't even go
to church, themselves, but told me to go with friends. At the time, God
was just something that existed outside of myself, some man sitting on a
throne in heaven. God was not a part of my life. I just knew that I
had to memorize some prayers for church, and wasn't allowed to talk or
chew gum. That's all it meant to me.
> When you were a child, in all likelihood,
> you were taught that the Santa Claus characters at
> the stores were just Santa's helpers, that the 'real'
> Santa Claus was to visit all good children's homes
> on Christmas eve. Along with the Santa myth, you
> were likely surrounded with a plethora of Santa myth
> stories. You probably can remember watching TV
> and seeing all that mythos played out, with adults
> sanctifying/blessing (treating as real) the myths of
> Santa.
>
> Tell me, honestly, doesn't the God myth along with
> the associated God myths have the same so-called
> 'reality' as did the Santa myths before that myth-spell
> was snapped by a friend or family member or acquaint-
> ance or your own self-awareness that Santa did not
> fit in with the nature of 'reality'?
No, not in the least. God is very real. His existence is proven to me
time and time again, minute by minute, day by day. Offhand, I can name
5 "miracles" that took place through my prayers. Absolute miracles.
How many is one person allotted? His presence is all around me, all of
the time. He listens. He speaks. Not in actual words, but through a
guidance. That inner voice which is loud and clear. But these words
are inadequate. This explanation hasn't begun to scratch the surface.
When you are aware of God, all He has done, and all He continues to do,
is laid before you. You can't help but thinking, "Wow!" when you really
see it all. Really see it. Reasons why you have gone down certain
paths in life all come to light. Everything is connected, and it's all
for a purpose. To watch it unfold is truly amazing.
> Isn't the only difference between the God myths
> and the Santa myths that you've found much in the
> ways of admission by former Santa myth followers
> that the Santa stories, every last one of them, are
> myths (even though you and many Santa myth
> doubters 'pretend' they're true when y'all are
> around children) ...
>
> ... -but- with the God myths, you have a large cadre
> of likeminded believers who perform rituals in big
> buildings with lots of social functions and ceremon-
> ies and myth-readings and sermons and incantations
> and ... well, you see, going to a church or cathedral
> must be, for you, just like believing in Santa was, for
> most, when we were children.
As I said, church did nothing for me, although I believe that it can do
a lot for others. There are many, many paths to God.
> The only difference between the God myths and
> the Santa myths is that the God myths are clung to
> by many, for life, for they are taught from childhood
> that the God myths are their **only hope**, that
> God can be their **best friend**, that to disbelieve
> risks eternal damnation and is likely to make you
> very unhappy in this life.
I have plenty of good friends, a wonderful family, and much love in my
life. I am extremely fortunate in so many ways. I don't need anything
to hang on to in order to feel good.
I also don't believe in eternal damnation. The God I feel, the God I
KNOW, is a loving God. We are here to learn, and to love one another.
When we choose to go against this, we create circumstance for ourselves
which will help us understand. It is not a punishment. We choose to
come back in order to learn these lessons. It is then that we gain
wisdom. It is then that we can truly love with purity. It is at this
time when the karmic process ceases, and we join with God, our creator.
> Mind Control
> ---
>
> Mind control, that's what you're submitting to,
By whom?
> and
> you refuse to let go of it because (see above) the
> mythical nature of the entire show that has been
> presented not only by religious figures, but by fam-
> ily members and society at large, all of that makes
> the myth seem, if you are unwilling to think about
> it, 'real' simply by pretending (or, if you prefer, by
> believing) that it is.
If anything, organized religion, with its rules and regulations, turns
me off. For some it's fine. But for me it's not. I don't need to step
outside of myself, or go into a building, in order to connect with God.
> Belief Compared to Doubt, Disbelief, Skepticism
> ---
>
> The mythical nature of the entire show is revealed
> only by a clear-minded, doubting, skeptical mind. If
> one follows church doctrine and puts all doubt aside,
> subordinating it to just believe no matter what, you
> are following the same exact path that a child who
> clings to belief in Santa Claus follows, even though,
> as typically happens, a cousin or a friend or some
> teenager has conveyed in no uncertain terms why
> adults lie about Santa Claus, why Santa Claus is
> myth.
I had plenty of skepticism. And I had plenty of questions. My
questions were answered. I ventured out to seek. I found. Answers are
everywhere, as well as within.
> Not likely you'll get much in the way of friends, family,
> or persons in churches or cathedrals discussing the
> mythical nature of the God stories. Why? 'Cause that
> would cut to the very heart of their faith. Without blind
> faith, religions would die. Blind faith + childhood brain-
> washing is the feast upon which religions feed.
In some cases I find this true, and in other cases, not. I am friends
with people who belong to different churches. Some dare not discuss
these things. Others love to have these discussions, and are very
open-minded.
> 'Tis why religions are so firm in discouraging doubt
> and disbelief, so loaded with threats against doubters
> and disbelievers, and so thrilled by the concept called
> blind faith.
You are confusing the politics of churches and organized religion with
the belief in, and understanding of, God.
> Reasonable Presentment of Alternatives?
> ---
>
> A reasonable presentment of alternative views on
> religious matters, seek that out next time you go to
> church or a cathedral. Ponder all the times that alter-
> natives to the God myths are presented in a respect-
> ful and equal level as are the believe seductions. You
> might even consider mentally counting the number
> of times belief is promoted + the number of times
> doubt and disbelief is discouraged.
People who truly know God, need not discuss the idea that He doesn't
exist. You may not understand this because you do not know God. You
don't deny the existence of people that you know. So it is with our
Creator.
> Compare those figures to the number of times one
> iota of respect for acquiescence to doubt and disbelief,
> as an alternative to blind faith, is mentioned.
I don't have blind faith. My eyes are wide open. I'm not hoping that
something is true. I see constant proof. And I also have respect for
people who doubt and disbelieve. We are all at different levels.
> What you'll find is that belief encouragement and dis-
> couragement of doubt and disbelief is pervasive.
>
> What you'll also find is that the number of times doubt
> and disbelief is mentioned, practically every (if not every)
> time they are, they'll be mentioned as unpleasant risky
> inferior options to the views expressed by the church.
Again, you are confusing people who hang on to every word that a church
may state, with spiritual people who understand God within them. The
two are not necessarily always the same. Can't say I never listen to a
sermon. Some touch me, others do not. Some ring true, and others
don't. You're making it sound as if everyone who knows God, or goes to
church, is a sheep, following the herd. You're quite mistaken.
> Brainwashing and Propagandizing + Social Inducement
> + Welfare/Survival/Propagation of Church Dogma
Why, oh why, do you keep bringing up church? Wasn't this discussion
supposed to be about God, Himself? That's what the subject line
suggests.
> In other words, your ability to actually think rationally
> about such matters is, via the technique of brainwash-
> ing -and- propagandizing, extinguished (or at least,
> that's the intent of the church) every time you walk
> through those church or cathedral doors.
Nope. If that were true, I wouldn't be a Christian who believes in
reincarnation, now would I?
> That, + social inducement, + the welfare/survival/prop-
> agation of church dogma is what the church is about,
> to keep their myths afloat, and to demean and dismiss
> any alternatives in which the church is *not* at play. Oh,
> and via the 'altruism trick', they also use some funds to
> help people with earthly needs, though typically, that's
> designed to be done with church dogma an adjunct to
> the help, the goal being to use the 'altruism trick' to
> extend the influence of the church.
You seem to sterotype way too much. Are you saying that all church
members and all church officials play this game? And that not one of
them has actually come to know God on a deeply spiritual level? Your
views seem to be quite narrowminded. Perhaps this discussion has given
you something to think about.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
> [a lot about "knowing" there's a God]
Whatever, you see a snake, you see God? Most
see a snake, and they see a snake. You see any-
thing, and imagine God? Most see anything, and
accept the naturalistic facts regarding such mat-
ters, to the extent they are aware of the naturalistic
facts. Take this computer I'm typing on, for ex-
ample. I'm aware of some of the details about it,
but I'd have to do a lot of research to come up
with all of the facts regarding the materials, their
transport to various manufacturing points, their
methods of manufacture, their assembly, their
testing modality, their distribution.
Also involved, the history behind the many parts
that went into making this computer. Also involved,
the history of where this computer has been, with
several parts having unique histories and assembly
far removed from the original manufacture of the
base unit. In actuality, also involved was the origin
and evolution of this particular space-time contin-
uum we happen to reside in as well as the nature
of the cosmos at large, during, prior to, and apart
from our particular space-time continuum.
You see a computer, and you imagine God? What-
ever, your imagination can trip you out in any manner
you wish to imagine, but reality, that's far removed
from simply believing beings/places exist apart from
reality.
You *KNOW* there's a God because you *feel* it?
Sounds like you've convinced yourself to believe in
a God, with nary an iota of evidence that such a
thing exists outside of human imagination, desires,
fears, and childhood indoctrination.
TAR
I see plenty of evidence. You look at a blade of grass, an insect, the
stars, and don't see God's handiwork. Many do. You limit your vision.
And do I see God in a computer? Don't know where you got that one from
but, come to think of it, in a way, I guess I do. God is in
everything. And, yes, I do know there is a God. His existence is made
known not only by the five senses, but goes way beyond them. In other
words, I see those colors. Many others here do, as well. Some are
blind and don't see the colors that exist before them. It may be hard
to describe them to a blind person, if not impossible, but a seeing
person cannot deny their existence. How can such a person supply
"evidence"? No amount of evidence, no description, and no explanation,
will truly be sufficient for those who cannot, or will not, see.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Regarding colors, people blind from birth are
endowed with a great advantage over sighted
people in their senses apart from sight, and to
the extent that they are well-educated, they are
fully aware of the concept called colors. Simply
put, colors, for them, can be sensed via context,
similar to the way we sense colors, and with the
addition of lightwave meters, a person blind from
birth can, with appropriate training, skillfully and
without failure accurately ascertain an object's
color.
Whereas you or any other non-color-blind sighted
individual relate to color differently than do per-
sons blind from birth, or blind after birth, or color-
blind at some point, the naturalistic manner in which
color operates in human perception is far more
complex than most humans ponder, very often.
- - -
Regarding God(s) ...
You've given a very good definition of blind faith in
your short summary above.
Only thing is, with blind faith, you have no god to show
for all your effort, for blind faith believes in spite of
the evidence, not because of it.
A blade of grass? Fascinating to study, scientifically.
An insect? Fascinating to study, scientifically.
The stars, over 8 sextillion of them? Fascinating to
study, scientifically.
God? A fascinating study in that humans have, through-
out *written* history, come up with all sorts of conflicting
assertions and claims regarding assorted versions of
such beings. Scientifically? Fascinating to study the
psychology and sociology and history of human behav-
ior regarding God myths, a rich source of material re-
flecting what humans have imagined regarding unsub-
stantiated beings and places asserted to be alternate
realities.
Colors and blindness and God? Ahh, I've addressed
such issues in the past -- here's a thorough exposition
regarding such matters ...
- - -
All should be able to relate to a person totally sightless
from birth by virtue of the fact that all of us cannot see
99.9 % of the electromagnetic spectrum. However, of
note, to totally relate to what it's like to be totally blind
from birth, needless to say, only those totally blind from
birth can relate to that, experientially.
One of my favorite stories on blindness involves Helen
Keller, and I'll relate that as a postscript to the following
details:
Comparing something existent and capable of being
adequately documented to a person missing the
sense of sight (clarification, many legally blind people
actually see color, and technological advances are
being made which are allowing totally nonsighted peo-
ple and partially sighted people to access the sense
of sight in varying ways) does not correlate to some-
thing for which no evidence exists (the imagined be-
ings, including God, angels, demons, Gods, devils,
jinns, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, elves, gremlins,
goblins, ghosts, spirits, Allah, christs, etc.).
The lack of evidence for imagined beings (and, for
that matter, imagined places like heavens and hells)
remain non-empirical for everyone, including persons
with the full range of vision confined to a piece of the
electromagnetic spectrum (i.e., normally sighted peo-
ple), persons with sight who are color blind, persons
who have partial sight, formerly fully sighted persons
who have lost sight, or persons who have never had
any sight).
Speaking of sensing colors, no human is naturalistically
endowed with sight in the areas of infrared or ultraviolet,
radio or microwave, x-ray or gamma ray, but sensors
detect those waves. These are non-contentious issues,
unlike supernatural beings and places and the dogmas
attached thereto.
- - -
Fascinating topic, that of light -- excerpts from
http://www.howstuffworks.com/light2.htm
... Light waves come in many sizes. The size of a wave
is measured as its wavelength, which is the distance
between any two corresponding points on successive
waves, usually peak-to-peak or trough-to-trough.
The wavelengths of the light we can see range from
400 to 700 billionths of a meter. But the full range of
wavelengths included in the definition of electromag-
netic radiation extends from one billionth of a meter,
as in gamma rays, to centimeters and meters, as in
radio waves.
Light is one small part of the spectrum.
Light waves also come in many frequencies. The fre-
quency is the number of waves that pass a point in
space during any time interval, usually one second.
It is measured in units of cycles (waves) per second,
or Hertz (Hz). The frequency of visible light is referred
to as color, and ranges from 430 trillion Hz, seen as
red, to 750 trillion Hz, seen as violet. Again, the full
range of frequencies extends beyond the visible
spectrum, from less than one billion Hz, as in radio
waves, to greater than 3 billion billion Hz, as in gamma
rays. ... visible light occupies only one-thousandth of
a percent of the spectrum.
- - -
Also of technological interest, the wide array of sight
capabilities within non-human animals, all specialized
based on the evolutionary niche within each species
(a few examples follow) ...
http://www.philadelphiazoo.org/index.php?id=8_2_1
- - -
Another item of interest on colors, about 8% of men
and 0.4% of women have some form of color blind-
ness per the following article ...
http://www.visibone.com/colorblind/
- - -
Another item of interest on colors, the impact of nearby
colors on perception, and the impact of lighting on both
colors and perception. In a totally dark room, for example,
if someone said they had a blue ball, would you believe
them?
[in the motif of analogy, a lengthy one follows]
Well, you might believe them, or you might think they were
deceiving you. Even in a dark room, you might ask to hold
the ball, to verify there actually was a ball, even though you
would not be able to visually ascertain the ball's color.
Once the light was turned on, the truth would be revealed,
in a manner of speaking. If you had not asked to hold the
ball in the dark room, could you be sure any ball shown
after the light was turned on was indeed the same ball
claimed in the dark room?
In any case, assuming a ball is shown, its color would be
determinable in a manner of speaking (as blue can border
on green or purple quite easily, so the actual color of a so-
called blue ball may be contentious -- also of note, the light
in the room the ball is viewed in impacts the perception of
its color, so in a room with blue light, the ball's color would
be perceived differently than in a sunlit room or a room with
green light, red light, or purple light -- even in a sunlit room,
the colors of the walls and the colors of the windows the
sunlight was passing through would impact the perception
of the ball color).
Would any of the afore-mentioned scenarios change the
nature of the ball? No, but there are substances that actually
change physical color based on environmental factors like
heat, and those would have to be taken into account as a
possibility. Also, needless to say, the ball would not be a
ball were it to be altered (by burning, compressing, freezing
and breaking, ripping, or other methods), so its character-
stics and existence are constrained by environment and
the actions of others.
Would there be a way for the ball's color to be accurately
determined, based on an objective measurement of the
spectrum of non-filtered sunlight it reflected? Certainly.
Would that color be blue? Well, it would be whatever word
is assigned to its point on the electromagnetic spectrum
(and hey, I didn't even mention the possibility of it being
a complex array of intermingled colors, or even, for the
purpose of trickery, a colorless clear ball).
Obviously, the scientific method is the optimum way to
reveal the ball's color, colors, or lack of color. Claims
about the ball's color don't alter the nature of the ball.
As previously mentioned, there may never have been
any ball at all (in the dark room), there may have merely
been claims. With the light on, the characteristics of
a ball (perhaps the same ball as was in the dark room,
perhaps not) may be examined, thoroughly.
With the concept called God, there is no ball to hold,
whether the room is dark or brightly lit, but there are
innumerable claims regarding a ball (or, in the case of
polytheism, lots of balls), and no way to validate any of
them, as humans spend inordinate energy pretending
to toss a ball around that cannot be sensed, measured,
seen, heard, touched, or evidenced in anything but an
imaginary way. Many humans even think their ball is all,
but most suspect (in moments of clear and dispassion-
ate reasoning) that there really is no ball at all.
- - -
Postcript: Helen Keller
Excerpt from Carl Sagan's classic "The Dragons of Eden:
Speculation On the Evolution of Human Intelligence",
describing Helen Keller's (who could neither hear, see,
or speak) first exposure to human language:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345346297
One day, Miss Keller's teacher prepared to take her for
a walk:
She brought me my hat, and I knew I was going out
into the warm sunshine. This thought, if a wordless
sensation may be called a thought, made me hop and
skip with pleasure.
We walked down the path to the well-house, attracted
by the fragrance of the honeysuckle with which it was
covered. Someone was drawing water and my
teacher placed my hand under the spout. As the cool
stream gushed over my hand she spelled into the
other the word water, first slowly, then rapidly. I stood
still, my whole attention fixed upon the motion of
her fingers. Suddenly I felt a misty consciousness as
of something forgotten--a thrill of returning thought;
and somehow the mystery of language was revealed
to me. I knew then that W-A-T-E-R meant that wonder-
ful cool something that was flowing over my hand.
That living word awakened my soul, gave it light,
hope, joy, set it free! There were barriers still, it is
true, but barriers that in time could be swept away.
I left the well-house eager to learn. Everything had
a name, and each name gave birth to a new thought.
As we returned into the house, every object which I
touched seemed to quiver with life. That was because
I saw everything with the strange, new sight that had
come to me.
TAR
>
> Regarding God(s) ...
>
> You've given a very good definition of blind faith in
> your short summary above.
You're mistaken. That is your illusion. My eyes are wide open.
> A blade of grass? Fascinating to study, scientifically.
And also, spiritually.
> An insect? Fascinating to study, scientifically.
And also, spiritually.
> The stars, over 8 sextillion of them? Fascinating to
> study, scientifically.
And also, spiritually.
Funny how all these wonderful things just happen to be here. Funny how
all these wonderful things just happen to be interconnected. Funny how
the human body works. How everything that a body needs is right here on
this planet. And funny how this planet works, without human
assistance. Fascinating to study, scientifically. And fascinating to
wonder how it all got here and why it's here. Fascinating to see it all
as a whole, rather than in parts.
<snip>
>
> With the concept called God, there is no ball to hold,
> whether the room is dark or brightly lit, but there are
> innumerable claims regarding a ball (or, in the case of
> polytheism, lots of balls), and no way to validate any of
> them, as humans spend inordinate energy pretending
> to toss a ball around that cannot be sensed, measured,
> seen, heard, touched, or evidenced in anything but an
> imaginary way. Many humans even think their ball is all,
> but most suspect (in moments of clear and dispassion-
> ate reasoning) that there really is no ball at all.
There is a way to validate it. You're not getting this. For one thing,
when you speak to God, when you are "connected" and ask a question, you
get an answer. The answer may come slowly, or the answer might be
revealed to you immediately. But you do get an answer. And, most of
the times, that answer makes perfect sense. It might not be the one
you're hoping for, or expecting, but in time, the reason is oftentimes
revealed.
How would you explain miracles? How would you explain the fact that I
had an ailment, was in a lot of pain, prayed and IMMEDIATELY, it
disappeared? The long-time suffering and pain was gone within
*seconds*, and never returned. How do you explain that my mom was
dying, and we were called in by the hospital to give our final
goodbyes. Nothing could save her. We all left work and took our kids
out of school. The hospital said she may not last the hour. We
prayed. Suddenly, there was a complete turnaround. She immediately
began getting well. She's still with us, and this happened more than 2
years ago. How do you explain the fact that our friend, in her mid-40s,
was so sad because she was never able to conceive. According to
doctors, her tubes were completely blocked. In addition, she has
autoimmune problems. Doctors said that she could never conceive, much
less carry a child. She asked if I believed in miracles. So we
prayed. Her baby is now 3 months old. Same with me. After many tests,
I was advised, by a specialist, to adopt. He said my chances were near
zero. We prayed. A year later, my baby was born. How do you explain
that I had another medical condition and, after praying, the doctor
found that it had completely disappeared? I wasn't surprised because I
knew that it would disappear, but he was absolutely baffled. Or how
about my cousin who had a brain tumor... how it was so intwined in her
brain, it was inoperable. She was told that she wouldn't live long.
After prayer, it was gone. Gone. That was about 12 years ago. Doctors
called it an absolute miracle.
And I have only cited miracles relating to healings. I have witnessed,
and experienced many others. Some in circumstances that happen... where
you're in the right place at the right time... that split second, in
order to help someone. Events that would not normally happen, but do,
when you have the best intentions. Then you look back in your life and
see all the things that led up to that moment. How you chose certain
paths to get you to this place. How doors so easily opened up for you
when you were ultimately meant to do something of great value. And how,
on some level, you knew all along that it would come down to this. You
can call these things mere coincidences. I don't. There is a reason
behind everything, and when you open your eyes (and your heart), you
often understand these reasons and it all becomes crystal clear.
You're trying to use reasoning, you're trying to see "proof", you want
concrete evidence. Well, if for a moment you'd stop solely using your
left brain and let go, give in to God and your true spiritual nature,
you would find that an entirely new world is awaiting you. You are
turning away from God in your heart by turning a deaf ear. You keep
asking for proof, but you're not doing what is necessary in order to
find it. You WILL find your proof. But not by these means. It's like
searching for evidence without being willing to perform the experiment.
You see, there is a spiritual side to you, but you aren't allowing it to
get through. You're shutting it off and not expanding yourself beyond
this limitation. You'd rather write a post a mile long, explaining, on
an intellectual level, why what I say is false. That is your limited
world, as you see it. As I said, if you would let go and let the
spiritual side of you flow through, you would see and understand another
reality. Not an illusion... a reality. And you would find your proof.