understand the subtleties of miracles-based healing ??
maz
>> is a choice between the ego's version of hell and the Holy Spirit's
>> version of heaven. I'm in the middle and get to choose either all the
>> time. I do believe the Holy Spirit's perception is as close to truth as I
>> can get on this earth. Maybe I wasn't clear before, all I do is perceive
>> the choice is mine and I get to live in the world I choose. I'm not
>> saying I make reality. I'm saying I get to live in the reality I choose
>> to live in by choosing who's eyes I want to see it with. The loving one
>> from the Holy Spirit's eyes or the painful one from the ego's eyes. Am I
>> making it more clear? <<
'Clear? Not to me.
Unfortunately you sound and write like an enthusiastic beginning student
giving your synopsis of course teachings. What I do know from experience is
healing the mind is a gradual, and incremental because students have so much
resistance to change.
I also know students will sometimes attempt to change their perception on
their own to accord with what they read in the course and understand to be
the the perception of the Holy Spirit, and then call that "listening to the
Holy Spirit, or "perceiving with the Holy Spirit."
As such its hardly likely that a beginning student is perceiving from a
healed mind that everything and everyone is innocent and to his benefit.
Why? Because if the mind was healed the perception would be stable and you
wouldn't have the notion of choice or constant choice.
More likely this is what you wish to "believe" and "perceive," and rather
than coming to that perception gradually, over time, through a series of
miracles and mental healing --which would create stability of perception,
you attempt to change your belief and perception, all at once, on your own,
based on what you think you should believe and should perceive.
However this approach only changes belief. And only beliefs of which you are
aware. And only asserts that perception can be changed. Change does not mean
perception is either stable or cannot revert back to the original
perception. So in a crisis the ego becomes strong, and suddenly you no
longer perceive everything is perfect, sinless and to your benefit.
In Atonement or undoing, or miracles based error correction, the Fundamental
thought system of sin is corrected at the causal level. That is the hidden
level of beliefs which create beliefs, which in turn create perception and
conscious beliefs, which in turn puts the mind in the grip of perception,
and estranges the mind from Heaven and Knowledge where the mind knows and
does not "believe."
This miracles based healing is done incrementally at the causal level
because a sudden, radical healing of the mind would be fearful and thus
counter productive. The fundamental belief in lack which is the basis for
the Thought System of sin and perception itself, is being undone at all
levels and all permutations.
This CANNOT be done by simply choosing to believe there is "no lack," or
reasoning there is no lack, or giving lip service that there is no lack,
Because "belief," itself is predicated on lack (as opposed to Knowledge and
knowing) and as such even the highest beliefs are still affirming the
reality of "lack."
That is why the dreamer cannot awaken from the dream by believing she is
dreaming. There is a lot more to it than "changing beliefs." And "beliefs,"
and "changing beliefs," are part of the dream and affirm the dream, and
continue the dream. Changing beliefs are not sufficient to awaken from the
dream.
As such "changing beliefs," is at best an temporary expedient to give up all
beliefs for knowledge. Hence its gross simplification to articulate course
based notions of healing the mind in terms of changing beliefs and thus
changing perception. Rather what is being healed and corrected by the
miracles are foundational thoughts largely beyond our awareness, which in
turn create a thought system of sin which we generally use without
awareness, and which creates a condition of perception while largely unaware
perception is not the natural state of Mind.
Hence the only "belief" you have to change is "belief in lack." That you
are here perceiving shows that you still believe in lack despite whatever
you choose to believe and see. If you no longer believed in lack you
couldn't maintain perception or maintain the world or maintain the body. You
would awaken from the dream to Heaven.
Hence the question is how do you relinquish all belief in lack, when your
very thoughts are predicated on belief in lack, and any belief at all
asserts the reality of "lack." When you can answer that question, when you
query the author or the Holy Spirit for that answer, then you will better
understand the subtleties of miracles-based healing."
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Deborah
> Hence the only "belief" you have to change is "belief in lack." That you
> are here perceiving shows that you still believe in lack despite whatever
> you choose to believe and see. If you no longer believed in lack you
> couldn't maintain perception or maintain the world or maintain the body. You
> would awaken from the dream to Heaven.
>
How do you know that this person -- or any other -- maintains
perceptions, beliefs and a world of bodies? Isn't this just your own
affirmation of lack, calling it "yours not mine?"
Deborah
george
IMO it's not hard change my perceptions that see reasons for hate into
ones that see reasons for love. All I have to do is ask and be willing
to let God take them from me. So why wouldn't I want to? So I can hold
onto my grievances that this or that "shouldn't" have happened? It
should have been this way instead.
Letting go of all past event and deciding to see them as perfect and
they way they should have happened brings about an alignment with
peace and ends the war I have with God. Now I'm accepting his will
instead of trying to be the creator and saying how things in the
past ,"should have happened."
It releases the past from all the errors I put there and lets me go
into the now with a clean slate. This clean slate IS my true nature
and love is expressed. Only my grievances from the past get in the way
so I can't know myself as I am in truth.
None of this is hard to understand or hard to do. All it takes is
willingness to let go of all my judgements from the past and to see
them again with the Holy Spirit's eyes.
Carrie
> On Nov 18, 10:48 am, "maz" <m...@solcon.nl_> wrote:
>
>> Hence the only "belief" you have to change is "belief in lack."
>> That you
>> are here perceiving shows that you still believe in lack despite
>> whatever
>> you choose to believe and see. If you no longer believed in lack you
>> couldn't maintain perception or maintain the world or maintain the
>> body. You
>> would awaken from the dream to Heaven.
>>
>
> How do you know that this person -- or any other -- maintains
> perceptions, beliefs and a world of bodies? Isn't this just your own
> affirmation of lack, calling it "yours not mine?"
Yes, good point.
aumorchestra
> On Nov 18, 10:48 am, "maz" <m...@solcon.nl_> wrote:
>
> > Hence the only "belief" you have to change is "belief in lack." That you
> > are here perceiving shows that you still believe in lack despite whatever
> > you choose to believe and see. If you no longer believed in lack you
> > couldn't maintain perception or maintain the world or maintain the body. You
> > would awaken from the dream to Heaven.
>
> How do you know that this person -- or any other -- maintains
> perceptions, beliefs and a world of bodies? Isn't this just your own
> affirmation of lack, calling it "yours not mine?"
>
> Deborah
I am not speaking for JL. My answer would be No. First of all its a
dialogue, second a "you" when postulating ideas does not need to
address only the other, but can mean : one: as in "if one still
perceives...".
Nowhere does JL give the impression that he is already free of all
belief in lack or perception. Because this would be highly suspect and
most probably dishonest. There are varying degrees in understanding,
effort to comprehend and ability to formulate. Its just a great
dialogue to follow because it uproots a fundamental paradox. IMHO.
namazte
aumorchestra
PS : >>> How do you know that this person -- or any other -- maintains
> perceptions, beliefs and a world of bodies? <<
That is easy to know. If one writes through a PC to a usenet group on
internet from locationb and ISP, one is in the "world" and therefore
to some degree maintaining perceptions, beliefs and material world.
aumorchestra
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:23:01 -0800 (PST), Deborah
>
> <debdaniel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 18, 10:48 am, "maz" <m...@solcon.nl_> wrote:
>
> >> Hence the only "belief" you have to change is "belief in lack." That you
> >> are here perceiving shows that you still believe in lack despite whatever
> >> you choose to believe and see. If you no longer believed in lack you
> >> couldn't maintain perception or maintain the world or maintain the body. You
> >> would awaken from the dream to Heaven.
>
> >How do you know that this person -- or any other -- maintains
> >perceptions, beliefs and a world of bodies? Isn't this just your own
> >affirmation of lack, calling it "yours not mine?"
>
> >Deborah
>
> differentiate yourself from me, as I have been here for many years.
> Thanks a bunch.
>
> Deborah (BC)
Please let us wecome Danielski to trc-m. I'm glad we're all here.
ty, maz
Carrie
JL?
george
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:45:50 -0800 (PST), george
>
>
>
> <georgeculol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >IMO it's not hard change my perceptions that see reasons for hate into
> >ones that see reasons for love. All I have to do is ask and be willing
> >to let God take them from me. So why wouldn't I want to? So I can hold
> >onto my grievances that this or that "shouldn't" have happened? It
> >should have been this way instead.
>
> >Letting go of all past event and deciding to see them as perfect and
> >they way they should have happened brings about an alignment with
> >peace and ends the war I have with God. Now I'm accepting his will
> >instead of trying to be the creator and saying how things in the
> >past ,"should have happened."
>
> > It releases the past from all the errors I put there and lets me go
> >into the now with a clean slate. This clean slate IS my true nature
> >and love is expressed. Only my grievances from the past get in the way
> >so I can't know myself as I am in truth.
>
> >None of this is hard to understand or hard to do. All it takes is
> >willingness to let go of all my judgements from the past and to see
> >them again with the Holy Spirit's eyes.
>
> nor does His Plan for Salvation have anything to do with bodies.
How could it not when I believe I'm in a body? IMO it's the process of
learning I'm not in a body and I'm free.
It
> is enough to recognize that the past not here.
But it IS God's will or it couldn't have happened unless I want to
believe that God is powerless and not in control. So I HAVE to look at
the past through his eyes or I'm letting my ego deceive me that all
this and that is bad and tragic and wrong. It's not. Why would it be
if there is another way to look at it and the other way shows only
reasons to give blessings and love to WHATEVER happened in the past.
>
> Human beings made human history.
Human beings made the events in human history. Now it's up to me to
see them through the Holy Spirit's loving eyes so I can free the past
of any judgements I put on those events from the past , like, " this
was bad or wrong and that this shouldn't have happened.
We don't have to paint
> over it to reconcile it with God's Will.
It's not painting over history to see it a different way through the
loving eyes that are God's will. It's seeing history as God wrote it
in the first place and letting go of the ego's perceptions of all the
evil and hate that don't exist in truth.
We are even the architects of how
> many of the natural disasters effect us.
We don't die from
> earthquakes. We die from the structures we've built toppling over and
> crumbling.
We don't die at all that's the point that's why it's NOT bad. WE are
RELEASED from the body to heaven a GREAT thing and the body is laid
down.
>
> God's Plan for Salvation has nothing to do with the body, it has to do
> with the mind reuniting with spirit,
The mind will unite with the Spirit the instant it believes completely
that it is Spirit and not the body. This is done by stabilizing
perception completely in one direction. The reason for this is, it's a
choice to believe in all goodness and reject all evil. God is love, so
what I'm doing is aligning my thoughts with his by choosing over and
over again that all that exists in truth IS his love and that hate and
evil NEVER existed. My CHOICE of perception does this. It's not hard,
it only takes a willingness to try. Then the results proved them self
to me.
The Holy Instant when this
> occurs is part of God's Plan. When it happens - how it happens -
> nobody knows.
Lol the mystery of it all...That doesn't seem reasonable to me that
God's plan of salvation is based on something no one knows.
>
> But there will inevitably be a reunion of mind with spirit, and that
is God's Plan for Salvation.
Amen to that!
> Deborah (BC)
Philomene
> IMO it's not hard change my perceptions that see reasons for hate into
> ones that see reasons for love. All I have to do is ask and be willing
> to let God take them from me. So why wouldn't I want to? So I can hold
> onto my grievances that this or that "shouldn't" have happened? It
> should have been this way instead.
Not hard but how effective is changing your perception? Hardy
effective at all if you constantly have to change your perception and
your perception doesn't remain changed. If God is taking away your
reasons to hold grievances, who or what is putting back these reasons?
Consider that perception, both as a condition of the mind, and
perception as interpretation is an effect not a cause. It is an
effect of what you have accepted into you mind and thought into
existence.
When the Holy Spirit through miracles change fear thoughts to love
thoughts you experience a shift in perception which will last. When
YOU change your perception and still hold unhealed fear thoughts you
are only temporarily changing at the level of effect. The perception/
interpretation doesn't last.
You miss the point that an unhealed mind cannot correct itself. You
read ACIM and got the rap down and think you can; you think you know
how you should think, and all the while at another level you are still
creating the ego which is thinking exactly how you want to think. A
minded divided against self is so hopelessly in error that it cannot
correct itself without outside agency.
That's why its better not to use phrases like "I changed my
perception . . ." If you did the changing then its unlikely to have
done much good. If the HS healed some fear thoughts though a miracle
and then you experienced a shift of perception to love, then you
didn't do much of anything but ask for help and healing.
george
> On Nov 18, 1:45 pm, george <georgeculol...@hotmail.com>
>
> > IMO it's not hard change my perceptions that see reasons for hate into
> > ones that see reasons for love. All I have to do is ask and be willing
> > to let God take them from me. So why wouldn't I want to? So I can hold
> > onto my grievances that this or that "shouldn't" have happened? It
> > should have been this way instead.
>
> Not hard but how effective is changing your perception?
It's very effective ( as long as God gives does the work).
Hardy
> effective at all if you constantly have to change your perception and
> your perception doesn't remain changed. If God is taking away your
> reasons to hold grievances, who or what is putting back these reasons?
I didn't quit using drugs the first time I tried. I'm human and make
mistakes. It's a process that takes lots of practice and willingness
and as I've chosen to practice and let God lead my life, I have become
a different man. One I like much better.
>
> Consider that perception, both as a condition of the mind, and
> perception as interpretation is an effect not a cause. It is an
> effect of what you have accepted into you mind and thought into
> existence.
Exactly, so the point is, the CAUSE and whatever happens makes no
difference at all except to bring about the effect which is the
choice. All that matters is the way I CHOOSE to see whatever in the
past because that is the effect and also in that choice IS my reaction
in the now. Joy and peace or hate and evil. I live in the now and my
reaction now is what matters. Sometimes I have to choose again and
that's not a big deal as long as I'm willing to let go of whatever in
the past had me mixed up and see it through the Holy Spirit's eyes
>
> When the Holy Spirit through miracles change fear thoughts to love
> thoughts you experience a shift in perception which will last. When
> YOU change your perception and still hold unhealed fear thoughts you
> are only temporarily changing at the level of effect. The perception/
> interpretation doesn't last.
So someone or something else is in charge of my salvation and I have
no part of it. That makes no sense to me and doesn't seem reasonable
as I have been given free will to see things either way. My mistake
that I'm letting God correct is being ABLE to see things either way.
Without the ego, that I made by mistake, all I could see is the love
that's already here in truth. I see it more and more every day as I
open to it. That's why I'm happier and life is a joyous adventure. It
doesn't really matter what happens, that can't be taken away from me
by anything or anyone.
>
> You miss the point that an unhealed mind cannot correct itself.
But the mind can and has to get out of the way by letting the Holy
Spirit's eyes perceive the world for it instead of the insane one's
the mind made without God's help. Unless that mind wants to stay
asleep and in hell.
You
> read ACIM and got the rap down and think you can; you think you know
> how you should think, and all the while at another level you are still
> creating the ego which is thinking exactly how you want to think. A
> minded divided against self is so hopelessly in error that it cannot
> correct itself without outside agency.
For sure God does all the work. I just get out of the way and let go
of my judgements about the past of how it SHOULD be. the past was and
is perfect. Everything happened for a reason and God knows what he's
doing. Now that's a thought with faith in it, not the doubt of the
ego.
>
> That's why its better not to use phrases like "I changed my
> perception . . ."
Agreed, it's much better to say I let the Holy Spirit change my
perception once I was willing to let go of my grievances. I will do
that from now on because that is the truth, as all the changes in me
and in my life came from God not from me. I couldn't quit using drugs
and alcohol by myself. Trust me I tried. Once I was completely willing
to let God do the work. It was done. So I completely understand your
point and agree with it. I haven't done squat to change my life only
God has as I became willing to let him.
Carrie
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:59:20 -0800 (PST), Philomene
> <qqj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why its better not to use phrases like "I changed my
>> perception . . ." If you did the changing then its unlikely to have
>> done much good. If the HS healed some fear thoughts though a miracle
>> and then you experienced a shift of perception to love, then you
>> didn't do much of anything but ask for help and healing.
>
> in itself a mind-changing experience for me, in many ways. I'm sure
> the HS was involved, but it's not like He materialized before me and
> waved a wand. Rather, I was constantly dealing with my shit as I
> studied the course, going through my day-to-day experiences as I did
> the lessons. And the course was talking to me about it all, in what
> seemed like a very direct way. All of my baggage got lost along the
> way, although I've accumulated some new baggage. Completely
> different baggage than what I had before. The baggage of growing
> older and all the loops your body can throw you for, unless you are
> one of the lucky ones who never have any health problems.
>
> And please, give me a break, everybody experiences the business of
> physically dying, unless it happens before they know what hit them, as
> in a horrific car accident. Jesus suffered on that cross. And the
> older we get the fewer miracles there are among us with respect to
> recovering from illness. Funny, that.
>
> Get real people - bodies age and start to break down just like any
> other machine. Don't look to the body's health for proof of your
> spiritual health. It is a creature of time.
>
> You and I are not.
>
> The mental healing the course offers is MENTAL healing. It's on
> another level.
>
> Deborah (BC)
I don't believe Jesus suffered on the cross. If he was the Enlightened
Master he's made out to be, he would have easily left his body at some
point. People watching it perceived him as suffering on the cross.
I don't really believe Raj is Jesus- author of ACIM, but in one of the
old newsletters he wrote that during the crucifixion he sat on a hill and
watched it.
The whole point of it was to show "I am not a body". Like there is more
to everything than what seems to be in the physical lump of matter, that I
call "me".
Sort of like the overall energy (part of God) borrowing a body for
awhile for a life on earth, for whatever reason, maybe we can't comprehend
or understand.
If you listen to Abraham (Esther Hicks) they make so much sense about
this. They say "death" is re-emergiing into the non physical, and a
wonderful, totally opening to all there is experience. Going back into
what is always there, and always a part of us, even when we believe we are
"a body". There is always some Connection to Source. If you thinik about it,
you can feel the truth of it.
maz
"Philomene" <qqj...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:34ec3018-d4a8-45fc...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
wow
Carrie
." If you did the changing then its unlikely to have
> done much good. If the HS healed some fear thoughts though a miracle
> and then you experienced a shift of perception to love, then you
> didn't do much of anything but ask for help and healing.
>
This seems like the key point.
maz
"Carrie" <starch...@charter.net> schreef in bericht
news:0OGNm.19436$ET3....@newsfe17.iad...
> maz wrote:
No it was Philomene who wrote that. My tiny contribution was "wow" :-)
Carrie
I know that, I was joining you in the wow. Agreeing with it.
If I remember it correctly, and it was yesterday so not sure I do... LOL