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Message from discussion Replies to Chris Fynn - PART ONE
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Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  
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 More options Dec 19 1997, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan, uk.religion.buddhist, alt.religion.buddhism.nkt, talk.religion.buddhism
From: zmadhy...@mail.rmplc.co.uk (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso)
Date: 1997/12/19
Subject: Replies to Chris Fynn - PART ONE

Due to the length of this posting it has been posted in TWO PARTS.

---------------
PART ONE of TWO
---------------

Hello Chris,

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to clarify some important issues.

You wrote:
>Geshe-la,  when you say that you are not sure of the truth of the
statement
>made by Trijang Rinpoche and quoted by Tseten Samdup - what do you
>mean? - are you saying  that Trijang Rinpoche may not have been
>speaking frankly - or are you suggesting that you  feel Trijang Rinpoche
>never made such a statement and therefore Tseten is either lying or
>misinformed?
>As Tseten  and the Information Dept. of the Tibetan Administration have
>said that H.E. Trijang  Rinpoche's statement was made "to a gathering of
>monks at Drepung" there should be many  witnesses who were there at the
>time - I'm sure at least some of them known to you.
>It seems that, - at least in public or in front of H.H. the Dalai Lama -
H.E.
>Trijang Rinpoche  was  unwilling to dispute the Nechung oracle and the
>divinations carried out by H.H. the Dalai Lama  in front of the "speaking
>thanka" of Palden Lhamo.  
>Since H.H. the Dalai Lama has stated that H.E. Trijang Rinpoche told him
>that he could absolutely depend on the oracle of Nechung and on the
>divination of Palden Lhamo in this matter, do you think that His  Holiness
>the Dalai Lama was lying when he said this?  If not, why do your students
>disparage H.H. for relying on the divination of Palden Lhamo and the
>Nechung oracle? Surely by doing this H.H. was depending on the advice
>of your own teacher?  

As I already said to you, in Tibetan society, both the Lamas and the
people, even today, have no freedom to speak out. If they ever oppose the
wishes of the Dalai Lama their very lives are in danger. So, therefore, it
was, and still is, frequently necessary for them to verbally follow the
wishes of the Dalai Lamas even though it is not their real intention.

My main point is that HH Trijang Rinpoche never encouraged the Dalai Lama
to publicly ban the practice of Dorje Shugden, so what he did or did not
say at Drepung is irrelevant. This is not important for me. If the Dalai
Lama said that Trijang Rinpoche encouraged him to ban this practice in
public, then I can say that he is lying.

I can give you examples of how, even today, Tibetans have no freedom to
speak freely. Gungthang Tsultrim, the leader of the thirteen settlements
spoke out against the Dalai Lama and was eventually murdered. Zemey
Rinpoche wrote the Yellow Book, and although I do not believe that what he
wrote is valid, he should have had the freedom to express himself without
fear of
reprisal. The Dalai Lama immediately punished him and sent him away, not
allowing him to attend teachings. The Dalai Lama completely destroyed his
reputation, his position, he became very unhappy, became sick and died. The
Mongolian Lama Gurudeva also spoke out openly against the Dalai Lama’s
views on Dorje Shugden. Encouraged by the Dalai Lama’s office the Tibetan
community turned against him, attacked him and caused him many problems.
His life was in danger and he had to escape from India to Nepal; eventually
the situation became worse there and he had to go to Mongolia, despite his
advanced years. Even the well-educated young Tibetans cannot disagree
directly with the Dalai Lama, because if he or she does so they will
certainly lose their positions. Last year some monks joined a peaceful
demonstration against the Dalai Lama’s ban on Dorje Shugden in southern
India and eleven of them were expelled from their monastery. I can tell you
many many stories like these.

You said:

>I spent years living in India amongst Tibetans and, during that time, I
have
>known many Tibetans who have disagreed with and spoken out against
>certain policies of the Tibetan Government in Exile or have disagreed with
>some of the views expressed by H.H. the Dalai Lama.
>Surely you know just as well as I do that there have always been quite a
>number of Tibetans who have openly disagreed with the Tibetan
>Government in Exile on many issues - and those who have questioned
>some views and decisions of H.H. the Dalai Lama himself. These people
>are not living in fear of their lives or livelihoods. So, in general, I
don't
>think that it is fair to claim that Tibetan people living in India
and Nepal
>have no freedom to speak out or oppose the wishes of His
Holiness the
>Dalai Lama.

I agree when you say that many people are against the views of the Dalai
Lama but they speak, as we say in an old Tibetan proverb ‘inside the bed’,
to their friends, family, etc. If they spoke out publicly against the
Government or the Dalai Lama himself, they would have big problems.

You said

>It seems to me that, in India, the controversy over Gyalpo Shugden
>became a public matter only after  the learned Zemey Tulku Lobsang
>Palden,  published his book "The Oral Instruction of the Intelligent
>Father" (pha-rgod bla-ma'i zhal-lung) which states that Shugden will
>destroy any Gelugpa practitioner  who supplements their Gelugpa practice
>with the practice of other Tibetan Buddhist spiritual traditions -
>particularly those of the Nyingmapa. Similar claims were made by other
>lamas and proponents of Shugden such as Geshe Yonten Gyatso and the
>Mongolian Lama Gurudeva. Apparently, some of these Lamas even
>claimed that these views reflected those of H.E. Trijang Rinpoche. Now,
>since you say that you spoke at length with H.E. Trijang Rinpoche
>directly concerning these matters, can you tell us frankly whether H.E.
>Trijang Rinpoche ever held such views?  

Your question here is an important one and quite subtle. Regarding Dorje
Shugden, there are two different ways of perceiving him. One is according
to the ordinary appearance of Tibetan people, and the other is according to
the appearance of the qualified practitioner. These two appearances came
originally from the 5th Dalai Lama. First Dorje Shugden appeared to him as
a harmful spirit which he tried to destroy, (albeit unsuccessfully), and
because of this many people came to view Dorje Shugden as a harmful spirit.
In this way the ordinary appearance of Dorje Shugden developed. Later, the
5th Dalai Lama realized that he had misunderstood the real nature of Dorje
Shugden, and he then began to engage in the practice, and composed prayers
to him. In these prayers he invites Dorje Shugden to come from Chöku, the
Dharmakaya, clearly indicating that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being.
Since that time the appearance of the qualified practitioner developed.

Later Lamas such as Tagphu Dorje Chang and Je Phabongkhapa perceived Dorje
Shugden as a manifestation of Buddha Manjushri. These Lamas realized that
Dorje Shugden is the same mental continuum as Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen.
Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen is the same mental continuum as Sakya Pandita who
is a manifestation of Manjushri. For followers of Je Phabongkhapa and
Trijang Rinpoche, including myself, it is impossible that Duldzin Dragpa
Gyaltsen, the manifestation of Manjushri could be reborn in an uncontrolled
way as a worldly spirit. Not only Gelugpa Lamas believe this, some Sakya
Lamas also believe that Dorje Shugden is a holy being. In the book by
Dhongtog Tulku Tenpai Gyaltsen he says that Dorje Shugden cannot be a
worldly spirit because he is a Bodhisattva. He says that Dorje Shugden is a
protector Deity of the Sakya tradition. Previously the Sakya monastery in
Rajpur, India always used to practise Dorje Shugden puja, but maybe
nowadays that has changed.

Although Je Phabongkhapa’s view is that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened
being, the 13th Dalai Lama, using his political power, did not allow Je
Phabongkhapa to publicize this view, so he had to accept the lower position
of Dorje Shugden. Therefore, at that time Gelugpa practitioners lost their
freedom to say publicly that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being. To the
majority of ordinary Tibetans Dorje Shugden appeared as a worldly spirit.
At that time there were many stories and rumours about how Dorje Shugden
would help some people, harm others and so forth, all according to the
ordinary appearance of the majority of people, most of whom were very
superstitious. The stories mentioned in Zemey Tulku's ‘Yellow Book’ are
just superstitions. He was not necessarily expressing his own view in this
book, but telling about many different superstitions according to ordinary
people's appearance of Dorje Shugden. Of course the view of Dorje Shugden as
a harmful spirit was neither Trijang Rinpoche’s view, (nor was it Je
Phabongkapa's).

As I said earlier, anything that Trijang Rinpoche said in public was not
necessarily his actual intention or view. He sometimes had to speak
according to people’s wishes, views, beliefs etc. For example, Buddha
Shakyamuni taught his Vaibashika disciples that all phenomena are
inherently existent, while to his Madhyamika disciples he taught that all
phenomena lack inherent existence. People have different capacities and
views, everything that Buddha said is not necessarily his own view. Just as
a doctor gives different advice to sick people, in the same way Buddha gave
different advice to his disciples.

Also, about the source of this present problem, it is not Zemey Tulku's
‘Yellow Book’ because in reality no-one believes the stories in this book,
with the possible exception of some of his disciples. In itself this book
has no power to destroy harmony, but the Dalai Lama believed the stories in
this book to be true and he then spoke out against this practice in public.
It was this reaction from the Dalai Lama that was the real cause of the
problem, upsetting many Nyingma practitioners and causing disharmony.
Because the Dalai Lama believed these superstitions, people also believed
them, and this is how the present problem arose.

As you know Chattral Sangay Dorje and Geshe Yonten Gyatso engaged in a
written debate on Dorje Shugden, both of their books have been published.
These books have never been the cause of disharmony between Nyingmapa and
Gelugpa practitioners. Chattral Sangay Dorje’s book is very beneficial for
Nyingmapa practitioners, giving them encouragement and confidence for their
practice, while Geshe Yonten Gyatso’s book is likewise beneficial for the
Gelugpa practitioner. So here there is no problem, they are scholars
debating with each other to clarify certain issues with a good motivation.
If the Dalai Lama had just ignored Zemey Tulku’s book, there would be no
basis for any problem.

You said;

>Geshe-la, you tell us that people such as yourself, who have spoken out
>against H.H. the Dalai Lama's decision to prohibit the worship of
>Gyalchen Shugden in monasteries and temples, have been threatened and
>feel that their lives are in danger. In your own case you say that you
have
>had to altered your travel plans after receiving such threats. But I
have also
>heard, from equally reliable sources, that threats have been
issued from
>the side of those who uphold the worship of Gyalpo Shugden against the  
>lives of learned lamas who are outspoken opponents of this practice like
>the Sakya scholar and historian  Dhongtog Tulku Tenpai Gyaltsen and the
>Nyingmapa Yogi Chattral Sangay Dorje  and that they too have  decided to
>alter their own travel plans as a result of such threats.  

The UK police have been notified by the NKT about the threats to my life.
They have taken these threats seriously, and have suggested various
security measures. I don’t know anything about the situation of these other
Lamas, but I will take your word for it. If any threats have been made
against these Lamas, then I condemn these threats unreservedly.

You wrote:
>I think that lies, half-truths and omissions are weapons used in all arenas
>of human politics. In this respect Tibetan politics and the politics
>surrounding this issue are generally no different from any other kind. ..

In comparison with Tibetan politics, the politics of democratic countries
is very clear and honest. In countries such as the UK and US people don’t
follow their leaders with blind faith. They elect their leaders only after
careful checking, and always investigate whether they are acting correctly
or not. People have freedom of speech to publicly criticize if they feel
their leader is not doing his or her job correctly. None of this happens in
Tibetan society.

You asked:

>perhaps you can tell us the details of exactly why you think this
situation
>has arisen - leaving nothing aside.

According to my understanding the Dalai Lama’s main wish is to integrate
the four Tibetan traditions into one. The leaders of the other traditions
will gradually disappear, leaving him alone as head of Tibetan Buddhism. In
this way he will be able to control all aspects of Tibetan Buddhism. In the
beginning this plan was rejected by the leaders of the Sakya, Kagyu and
Nyingma traditions, while the Gelugpa remained neutral.

Later, the Dalai Lama changed his approach. He is now trying to destroy the
practice of Dorje Shugden and change the Gelug tradition, while at the same
time developing a close relationship with the other traditions, especially
the Nyingmapa. Gradually he hopes to fulfil his wishes in this way.

Therefore this present situation has developed because many people did not
accept the Dalai Lama’s decision to ban the practice of Dorje Shugden. I
believe that right now the Gelugpas are experiencing difficulties, but that
sooner or later it will be the turn of the other traditions.

You wrote:
>Can you tell me who should determine what is worshipped within a
>particular religious body or institution if it is not the leaders of that
body
>or institution?

Maybe you are mixing the programme of daily practice in the monasteries etc,
and religious freedom in general. Each monastery or Dharma Centre has its
own abbot or spiritual director who is in charge of organizing the daily
practices, or programmes throughout the year. At certain times particular
practices are emphasized, and at other times other practices. This is not
the job of the Dalai Lama, but of the individual abbot or spiritual
director. The practice of Dorje Shugden is not new, but has been passed
down through the generations, and people enjoy it very much. No-one can
control Dorje Shugden practice in this way, because it is practised by
people everywhere, not just in the monasteries. So when the Dalai Lama
suddenly banned this practice, it is clearly against religious freedom.

You write:

>At Manjushri Centre while Lama Thubten Yeshe was there, I’m sure that
>an image of HHDL occupied a preeminent place in the shrine room
>......................  from all reports now, images of HHDL are no longer
>displayed openly in your Centres ................... presumably you felt
>it was within your rights as senior spiritual leader ......to ..........
see to
>it that any image of HHDL was removed from the shrine room  

You are right. Lama Yeshe was the general spiritual director of Manjushri
Centre, while I had the responsibility of organizing the daily programmes.
We
were both very happy to have the picture of HH the Dalai Lama on the shrine
because we hoped that the people of Manjushri and HH Dalai Lama would
develop a good spiritual connection and relationship. Many times we invited
the Dalai Lama to come to Manjushri Centre, although we both knew, even
then, that he had rejected the practice of Dorje Shugden. We assumed it was
not his real intention
because we found it difficult to believe that he really wanted to destroy
the practice of Dorje Shugden.

So for a long time we continued to practise Dorje Shugden and kept faith in
the Dalai Lama. Then later the situation deteriorated because he
intensified his ban on Dorje Shugden worship. I heard that he said in
public that those who practise Dorje Shugden cannot be my friend. Then my
mind gradually changed, especially as we received criticism from people who
were saying that Manjushri Centre had broken its guru devotion to the Dalai
Lama because of our continued practice of Dorje Shugden. As his picture was
on our shrine, people believed that he was our root guru, on the other hand
because we practised Dorje Shugden people thought we were against the Dalai
Lama. Due to this contradiction we recieved a lot of criticism. In order to
resolve this contradiction and to show that the Dalai Lama is not our root
Guru we removed his pictures. This is how we came to remove the pictures of
HH Dalai Lama.

You said:

>Isn’t it equally within the rights of HHDL, HE Ganden Tri Rinpoche, HE
>Jangtse Choje, as the spiritual and temporal leaders of Gelugpa sect to put
>an end to particular practices and forms of worship within these
>institutions belonging to the Gelugpa sect if they feel these practices
are
>useless or doing more harm than good?

In reality, the Gelugpa spiritual leader is Ganden Tri Rinpoche who is the
throne holder of Je Tsongkhapa. The Kagyupa spiritual leader is Gyalwa
Karmapa, the Sakyapa spiritual leader is Sakya Trizin, and during Dudjom
Rinpoche’s time he was the spiritual leader of the Nyingmapas. These
spiritual leaders have responsibility for the development of their own
tradition in their monasteries, communities and Dharma Centres. Of course
Ganden Tri Rinpoche should have responsibility for the development of the
Gelug tradition in general, but at this present time he is powerless. I do
not believe that it is Ganden Tri Rinpoche’s wish to ban the practice of
Dorje Shugden. Even if Ganden Tri Rinpoche was in control of the
development of the Gelug monasteries, he would still need to discuss his
ideas with the majority of monks. He could not make unilateral decisions.
In any case he could never control individual practitioners, they always
had the freedom to choose and maintain their own personal practices.

For instance, although Sera, Ganden, and Drepung (in Tibet) were Gelug
monasteries, many Nyingmapa and Bön practitioners joined to study the
philosophical teachings. In my class in Sera-Je I had some friends who were
from a Nyingma monastery in eastern Tibet. Their daily practice was
Nyingma, and no-one was unhappy about this. They had complete freedom. We
never had any problems because the abbot gave complete freedom for
individual practice.

Although most of my family are Gelugpas who rely on Dorje Shugden, some of
them are Nyingmapas. My younger sister married a Nyingmapa Lama from
western Tibet from a renowned lineage, he was called Ngora Lama. They had
many children, and I visited them frequently, sometimes he and I would do
puja together. I would do Dorje Shugden puja and he would do his own
practice. We had a very good relationship until his death in Mussourie,
India. Now his youngest son and my sister are living in Manjushri Centre in
England.

When I lived in Mussourie I had many good friends from the Nyingma
tradition, one of whom in particular was called Ngachang Lama. He was an
old man, a lay practitioner; one winter he and I did retreat in the same
house. In between sessions we talked Dharma, each talking about our
experiences. His oldest son would often invite me to his house to do puja.
Also, I was often invited to do puja at houses of other Nyingma families. I
was so surprised to hear the Dalai Lama and others saying that Dorje
Shugden practitioners and Nyingmapa practitioners are like fire and water!

(Continued in PART TWO....)


 
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