Rod, I challenge you
Swiss Heritage
Do you maintain either of the following?
1. There have been no substantive responses from anyone in the
administrative community, to the community issues you've raised in
Internet discussions.
2. Nothing is being done in the administrative community to address
those issues.
I'm prepared to refute both allegations.
Second challenge:
It looks to me like you disapprove of some people's unwillingness to
discuss your issues with you. Is that true? If so, are *you* willing
to discuss any of *my* issues with *me*?
Jim
Rod
Swiss Heritage <geo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5fe095d0.04022...@posting.google.com...
> First challenge:
I understand that as the recipient of the challange it is my right to
chose.........I choose water pistols and bommyknockers....range thirty
feet.......Dermod! ........ Will you be my Second?
> Do you maintain either of the following?
Jim mate.....this even starts as a straw man...you ask if I believe the
following propisitions (defined by you) and challange me to defend them.
Need I point out, yet again, that the issues/points/questions/challanges I
have presented all too often lack the courtesy of a reply?
None the less, with some preparatory discussion on 'the ground' I
accept your challange......load your water pistol and grip firm your
bommyknocker Sir!
> 1. There have been no substantive responses from anyone in the
> administrative community, to the community issues you've raised in
> Internet discussions.
I find the parameters too broad, *many* "community issues" have
been raised....which issues and "substantive responses" do you wish
to center on? Care to choose one each?
> 2. Nothing is being done in the administrative community to address
> those issues.
This is a re statement of 1/ Jim....if there are/are not "substantive
responses"
from the AO then something is/is not "being done in the administrative
community to address those issues".
> I'm prepared to refute both allegations.
So far there is only one allegation Jim.....its parameters (range of
potential
community issues are huge/broad). Do you care to specify one?
Do you mind if I choose one also?
> Second challenge:
>
> It looks to me like you disapprove of some people's unwillingness to
> discuss your issues with you. Is that true?
Is a bear a Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?
> If so, are *you* willing to discuss any of *my* issues with *me*?
*Sure* *Jim* *any* *time* ;-)
Just as long as you are not going to claim exclusive right to select,
set and define the issues to be discussed.
Do you think we will need establish any other ground rules Jim?
'Thou wilt answer the others questions'.......?.....etc.
Or do you think we are capable of conducting this discussion
with the presumptions of 'Gentlemen'?
Rod.
Jim Habegger
Rod, that was a masterpiece. I'm glad to see you still have it in
you. Some of your recent posts had me worried.
Thank you very much. I'll be back later to respond.
Jim
Jim Habegger
>
>Swiss Heritage <geo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:5fe095d0.04022...@posting.google.com...
>> First challenge:
>
>I understand that as the recipient of the challange it is my right to
>chose.........I choose water pistols and bommyknockers....range thirty
>feet.......Dermod! ........ Will you be my Second?
Shucks! Dadgum it! I was hoping for nets of wonder . . . range across
the Valley of Love.
The statements I asked you about were the only ones I was prepared to
refute. If you don't endorse either one, then I need to find
something else.
>> 1. There have been no substantive responses from anyone in the
>> administrative community, to the community issues you've raised in
>> Internet discussions.
>
>I find the parameters too broad, *many* "community issues" have
>been raised....which issues and "substantive responses" do you wish
>to center on? Care to choose one each?
>
>> 2. Nothing is being done in the administrative community to address
>> those issues.
>
>This is a re statement of 1/ Jim....if there are/are not "substantive
>responses"
>from the AO then something is/is not "being done in the administrative
>community to address those issues".
>
>> I'm prepared to refute both allegations.
>
>So far there is only one allegation Jim.....its parameters (range of
>potential
>community issues are huge/broad). Do you care to specify one?
>Do you mind if I choose one also?
How about due process, conflict resolution, and written procedures to
help reduce abuse and corruption? I thought you were saying that
there was nothing being done about those in the administrative
community. Did I read you right?
I would love for you to specify an issue, or two, or as many as you
want.
I'll discuss the second challenge in a separate post.
Jim
P.S. What are bommyknockers?
Jim Habegger
>>
>> It looks to me like you disapprove of some people's unwillingness to
>> discuss your issues with you. Is that true?
>
>Is a bear a Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?
>
>> If so, are *you* willing to discuss any of *my* issues with *me*?
>
>*Sure* *Jim* *any* *time* ;-)
>
>Just as long as you are not going to claim exclusive right to select,
>set and define the issues to be discussed.
Not at all.
>Do you think we will need establish any other ground rules Jim?
>'Thou wilt answer the others questions'.......?.....etc.
I'm thinking that we might need to agree on some terms and criteria
ahead of time, for some topics. I'll let you know.
>Or do you think we are capable of conducting this discussion
>with the presumptions of 'Gentlemen'?
Rod, you have always been a gentleman with me, and I trust you to
continue. How about you?
I'm out of time for now. I'll be back to tell you about one of my
issues.
Jim
Jim Habegger
In the Tablet of the World, Baha'u'llah says:
"Justice is, in this day, bewailing its plight, and Equity groaneth
beneath the yoke of oppression. The thick clouds of tyranny have
darkened the face of the earth, and enveloped its peoples."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 84)
As I see it, the faults of the most stubborn and abusive AO defenders,
and the defects of the Baha'i Community, that you've been highlighting
in Internet discussions, are all part of the condition that
Baha'u'llah describes above, and would come as no surprise to Him at
all.
He continues:
"Through the movement of Our Pen of glory We have, at the bidding of
the omnipotent Ordainer, breathed a new life into every human frame,
and instilled into every word a fresh potency. All created things
proclaim the evidences of this world-wide regeneration."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 84)
A little later in the same tablet, He says:
"Every man of insight will, in this day, readily admit that the
counsels which the Pen of this Wronged One hath revealed constitute
the supreme animating power for the advancement of the world and the
exaltation of its peoples.
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 84)
Elsewhere, He says:
"My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the
tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and
security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly
established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels
which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass
unheeded."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
286)
"That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and
mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of
all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in
no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an
all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and
all else naught but error."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
254)
"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He
perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the
remedy."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
212)
Do you agree with what Baha'u'llah says in those paragraphs?
As I see it, Baha'u'llah has already diagnosed the illness you've been
highlighting, and prescribed the best possible remedy. Do you agree?
If not, please tell me what those paragraphs mean to you. If you do
agree, will you discuss with me how to apply His remedy?
After all your experience with other people's unwillingness to discuss
your issues, I'm sure you understand how I would feel if you turned
away from discussing this issue with me.
Jim
Rod
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:31:51 +1100, "Rod" <kas...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >Swiss Heritage <geo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:5fe095d0.04022...@posting.google.com...
> >> First challenge:
Fighting Baha'i style....cut to the chase...leap to the core-
> P.S. What are bommyknockers?
Oh Jim.....A bommyknocker is when you steal one of mums stockings (it
must be stolen or it just wont work) and stuff a wad of paper, or
grass
or sponge or combination thereof down into the toe to form a ball 4-6
inches
in diameter. Tie the stocking off above the absorbent wad and soak the
whole
ball in water or something putrid if you wanna go biological. Swing or
fling your bommyknocker as circumstances allow.
Beware of the kid whos mum is a nurse....he has very tough
bommyknocker material
to draw on....beware the kid (there is allways one) who attempts to
conceal hard
objects in his bommyknocker...he is destined to be a BIGS on TRB ;-)
Bommyknokers take less than 45minutes to assemble and deploy...there
are lots of
nurses and wet newspaper in New Zealand......I reccomend you act now.
I saw little or nothing being done in my two decades as a Baha'i Jim.
No doubt there is stuff being written up and distributed as we speak.
You are wellcome to put up whatever you like, due process has allways
interested me and I would be most interested to see if there is
anything
new, anything that conflicts with the NZ court submission (re Allison
M)
or anything that seeks to over ride the prevailing culture of- 'turn a
blind
eye- don't let the neighbours hear- forgive, forget, get over it'.
I for my part will be putting up and examining a string of letters
from the
NSA (Oz) on issues related to due process, mediation and conflict
resolution.
I will attempt to show that ignorance, denial, false theology and a
procedural
vacuume facilitated an environment in which otherwise easily resolved
conflict
festered and destroyed both a community and (to my knowledge)
Australias first
major Baha'i social and eccenomic development project undertaken in
conjunction
with the Aboriginal community.
It is to this final aspect, the betrayal of an indigenous community to
whoom
the Baha'is had made a commitment, that I will be leading and
emphasising.
I intend to make a case based on actual past, present and ongoing
events Jim and look forward to seeing what theoretical propisitions
you have assembled
to fling across the Valley of Love.
Never bring a wet rag to a bommyknocker fight mate ;-)
> I would love for you to specify an issue, or two, or as many as you
> want.
I'll go for 'Justice' Jim.....Justice and its denial...Justice and the
abandonment of a disempowered mob to whoom a comittment had been made
by the Baha'i community. Justice the Best Beloved of All Things.
> I'll discuss the second challenge in a separate post.
I look forward to it Jim.
Couple of points...what I wish to present is an encapsulation of
events
over several years...I wish to convey what transpired without
mentioning the
names of any of the Baha'i participants and I especialy wish to avoid
identifying one of the key non Baha'i players who is rich, powerfull,
litigious,
and dangerous....if any of the 'player' details are vague/unclear then
ask or
email me. Ok?
One final and important point Jim....I am no longer a member of the
Baha'i
community...the case I intend to present is true and I will offer the
names and contact details of at least two individuals in a position to
independantly substantiate. The Baha'i community is clearly unprepared
to fulfill its pledge
to the community I have referred to...I no longer have anything to
loose or
protect in relation to Baha'i. Do you? I ask you because you must be
aware that
if I have been subject to an AO "social visit" for online advocasy of
due process you may well allso find yourself making coffe and checking
the cookie
jar just for egging me on ;-)
Is this something you wish to do?
All the best.
Fire away.
Rod.
Swiss Heritage
else can satisfy me the way you do.
I'll need some time to prepare my next post.
Jim
Dermod Ryder
"Rod" <kas...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:403e...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
> Swiss Heritage <geo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5fe095d0.04022...@posting.google.com...
> > First challenge:
>
> I understand that as the recipient of the challange it is my right to
> chose.........I choose water pistols and bommyknockers....range thirty
> feet.......Dermod! ........ Will you be my Second?
Take that as read!
Rod
Great....now, this time, take the dam nurse out of the stocking
*before* you load the wet newspaper!
(I'll be with you in a minute Jim...I'm thinking...honest)
Rod.
Jim Habegger
>(I'll be with you in a minute Jim...I'm thinking...honest)
No hurry. I'm working right now on some challenges to Fred and Susan.
Jim
Jim Habegger
>ignorance, denial, false theology and a
>procedural
>vacuume facilitated an environment in which otherwise easily resolved
>conflict
>festered and destroyed both a community and (to my knowledge)
>Australias first
>major Baha'i social and eccenomic development project undertaken in
>conjunction
>with the Aboriginal community.
Jim
Jim Habegger
>> How about due process, conflict resolution, and written procedures to
>> help reduce abuse and corruption? I thought you were saying that
>> there was nothing being done about those in the administrative
>> community. Did I read you right?
>
>I saw little or nothing being done in my two decades as a Baha'i Jim.
>No doubt there is stuff being written up and distributed as we speak.
>You are wellcome to put up whatever you like, due process has allways
>interested me and I would be most interested to see if there is
>anything
>new, anything that conflicts with the NZ court submission (re Allison
>M)
>or anything that seeks to over ride the prevailing culture of- 'turn a
>blind
>eye- don't let the neighbours hear- forgive, forget, get over it'.
I'm wondering now if I've misunderstood some of your posts. I thought
you were insisting that nothing was being done in the administrative
community about the defects in the community that you've been
highlighting. I thought you were insisting that there were no written
procedures for due process. I thought you were insisting that nothing
was being done to apply principles and methods of conflict resolution.
Do you contest any of the following statements?
1. All the elements of due process have been part of the written
guidelines for local spiritual assemblies in the U.S., since before
1997 at the latest.
2. There are, and have been for years, initiatives sponsored by Baha'i
institutions, to train Baha'is in contemporary principles and
practices of conflict resolution.
3. The Guidelines for Local Spiritual Assemblies on Domestic Violence,
distributed to all spiritual assemblies, contain instructions that
substantially address the issues of abuse, corruption, and coverup.
If not, then there is no need, for my purposes, to spend time
searching for documentation which, I admit from the beginning, I may
not be able to find for #2.
>Couple of points...what I wish to present is an encapsulation of
>events
>over several years...I wish to convey what transpired without
>mentioning the
>names of any of the Baha'i participants and I especialy wish to avoid
>identifying one of the key non Baha'i players who is rich, powerfull,
>litigious,
>and dangerous....if any of the 'player' details are vague/unclear then
>ask or
>email me. Ok?
Ok.
(snipped a blank line)
>One final and important point Jim....I am no longer a member of the
>Baha'i
>community...the case I intend to present is true and I will offer the
>names and contact details of at least two individuals in a position to
>independantly substantiate. The Baha'i community is clearly unprepared
>to fulfill its pledge
>to the community I have referred to...I no longer have anything to
>loose or
>protect in relation to Baha'i. Do you? I ask you because you must be
>aware that
>if I have been subject to an AO "social visit" for online advocasy of
>due process you may well allso find yourself making coffe and checking
>the cookie
>jar just for egging me on ;-)
>Is this something you wish to do?
Do I wish to egg you on? Yes!
Do I wish to make coffee and check the cookie jar? No. It would more
likely be %100 fruit juice, cheese and crackers, maybe chips.
Do I look forward eagerly to an AO social visit for online advocacy of
due process? Yes!
Jim
Rod
> Rod, it's such a pleasure working and/or dueling with you.
The pleasure is all yours Jim ;-)
> No one else can satisfy me the way you do.
A tempting platter Jim....but no thanks....I wont take that one...too
obvious ;-)
> I'll need some time to prepare my next post.
No rush
Rod
Rod
> Rod, here is one of my issues.
>
> In the Tablet of the World, Baha'u'llah says:
>
> "Justice is, in this day, bewailing its plight, and Equity groaneth
> beneath the yoke of oppression. The thick clouds of tyranny have
> darkened the face of the earth, and enveloped its peoples."
>
> (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 84)
>
> As I see it, the faults of the most stubborn and abusive AO defenders,
> and the defects of the Baha'i Community, that you've been highlighting
> in Internet discussions, are all part of the condition that
I can't see it Jim. Not in that quote. It does not strike me as
specificaly applicable toor directed towards the Baha'i AO/community.
Do the "thick clouds" envelop all (including Baha'is)? Probably.
But I cannot stretch the passage (in my
mind) to be a portent of things Baha'i. "Part of the condition that
Baha'u'llah describes"? could be...but I can't see it. In fact I
struggle to make a connection between much/most of the writings
(positive or negative)and the community. I cannot see the
'consultation', I cannot see the 'transformation',
I cannot see the 'unity in diversity'....perhaps this is "all part" of
"the yoke of opression" but I don't know. I have seen enough
variations in interpretation of the Book of Rev to know that you can
make almost anything
of almost anything. And there are times on TRB when the 'Beast' rears
clear and "the face of the earth is darkened".
"would come as no surprise to Him at all"? Perhaps the God aspect of
Baha'u'llah
is not surprised....but methinks the 'man aspect' would be spinning in
grave.
It is a minor/petty ponder but...Baha'u'llah was the recipient of
jokes/anecdotes from Aqa Syyid Husayn-i-Kashani (who-"often came into
His presence and made Him laugh". An appreciation of humor
implies/demands (?)
the capacity to be "surprised". It seems that not 'everrything' was
'forseen'.
>
Snip. I saw nothing that moved me to comment on in the first two
quotes
Jim
> "My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the
> tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and
> security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly
> established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels
> which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass
> unheeded." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
> 286)
This rings several cords with me. There seem to be many
(miriad?)"counsels
... suffered to pass unheeded." The counsels on 'true consultation',
especialy the 'eddited' second precondition have gone unheeded. So too
the core principle
"Let deeds not words..."seems lost.
It has been my longstanding view that rather than
"unity can never be achieved so long as..."....Unity is instead
assumed to exist within the community and many "counsels" are
sacrificed upon the altar of preserving this psuedo unity/psuedo
community.
>
> "That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and
> mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of
> all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in
> no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an
> all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and
> all else naught but error." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
> 254)
> "The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He
> perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the
> remedy. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
> 212)
>
> Do you agree with what Baha'u'llah says in those paragraphs?
In the last two...I don't know anymore Jim. I am aware of some
"prescribed
remedies" that send the patient into a feever or frenzy before the
"disease"
is driven out. But I cannot make sense of a remedy (example to the
world) that turns the recipients behaviour into something worse than
what I would find
in secular society. I have never been a 'joiner' of clubs, churches or
organizations Jim...but I do have very diverse work/life experience-
working class industrial, art school, welfare, street kids, psych
disabled, drug addicts, prisons, education....I say again in all
sincerity- I have never encountered anything as nasty as a Baha'i in
defence of the faith mode.
Give me the disturbed drug addict with the knife any day....I'm
serious...at least with the addict I know what to expect...with
Baha'is I am continualy
caught off guard and astounded by the behaviours.
If there is 'remedy' in exaserbating the 'disease' it might be
working...but
I cannot see it.
> As I see it, Baha'u'llah has already diagnosed the illness you've been
> highlighting, and prescribed the best possible remedy. Do you agree?
Despite the fact that this is the question I have been thinking about
the most....my answer is going to seem flippant.
It doesn't fucking matter if "I agree" Jim...it doesn't matter if the
issues I have highlighted are unlimately right or wrong or if
Baha'u'llah
has or has not already diagnosed the illnesses....the only way to find
out
is through consultation/discussion, consultation/discussion is a
primary highlighted issue, consultation/discussion is prescribed
remedy, consultation/
discussion is ill,diseased,dead, connect and begin loop again.
In a decade I have seen no chink in the anti consultative armour.
Fred is right....it is a facade...a farce...a nasty slimy game devoid
of
ethics, morality, rules or a preparedness to discuss rules/guidelines.
> If not, please tell me what those paragraphs mean to you.
No...I agree/believe the remedy prescribed and the issues highlighted
are the same or interdependent.
> If you do agree, will you discuss with me how to apply His remedy?
Sure...I can discuss it with you Jim...but my side of the conversation
will be limited, brief and in the past tense. I no longer believe
there
is any interest or willingness within the Baha'i community to discuss
the
issue/s. I believe the Baha'i Technique is in full swing and operation
and
the only thing that would stop it is peer group pressure or AO
intervention.
Snowballs hope in hell of either.
> After all your experience with other people's unwillingness to discuss
> your issues, I'm sure you understand how I would feel if you turned
> away from discussing this issue with me.
No, I would not turn away from the discussion Jim...but I will
struggle to
find new things to say on these issues or new ways of saying them.
For some time I have been considering a thread on the 'Deeds not
Words' theme
and how it is applicable to a realm, like this, that is exclusivly
'words'.
What 'deeds' can be preformed?-
1/ Preserve life, never shun or killfile (beyond a set period)
2/ Answer direct perinant questions..
3/ Read carefully, respond to what is written not your assumptions
about it...
etc,etc....
You get the picture, the same old shit I have been harping on in
victim mode
about for ages.
There is no point to such a thread, it has been tried before in a
dozen different forms. Futile, pointless, pissing in the wind and I
have zero interest
or enthusiasm for trying again.
Hope that came close to answering some of the questions/issues.
All the best.
Rod.
Jim Habegger
Rod, thank you. Thank you. Yet again, thank you.
What a wonderful thing, to be heard.
I may not have time to respond again, before tomorrow.
Jim
Jim Habegger
Rod, in my view, now that we've recognized that there is no force
field protecting the administrative community from abuse, corruption,
and all the other ills of society, I see no reason to treat social
ills in the administrative community differently from the ones outside
of it. I don't see one set of prescriptions in the words of
Baha'u'llah, for responding to injustice and oppression in general,
and another set of prescriptions for responding to injustice and
oppression within the community administrated by the Universal House
of Justice.
>> As I see it, the faults of the most stubborn and abusive AO defenders,
>> and the defects of the Baha'i Community, that you've been highlighting
>> in Internet discussions, are all part of the condition that
>> Baha'u'llah describes above,and would come as no surprise to Him at all.
>
>I can't see it Jim. Not in that quote. It does not strike me as
>specificaly applicable toor directed towards the Baha'i AO/community.
Does it strike you as specifically *not* applicable to or directed
towards the AO community?
>Do the "thick clouds" envelop all (including Baha'is)?
All including members of the community administered by the Universal
House of Justice. I don't believe this community has a privileged
status protecting it from the ills of society.
>I cannot see the
>'consultation', I cannot see the 'transformation',
>I cannot see the 'unity in diversity'....perhaps this is "all part" of
>"the yoke of opression" but I don't know.
That's how I see it now.
Look again at what you can remember of the words of Baha'u'llah. I
don't think the idea, that the community administered by the Universal
House of Justice would be free of the injustice and oppression He
describes, came from Him.
>"would come as no surprise to Him at all"? Perhaps the God aspect of
>Baha'u'llah
>is not surprised....but methinks the 'man aspect' would be spinning in
>grave.
>It is a minor/petty ponder but...Baha'u'llah was the recipient of
>jokes/anecdotes from Aqa Syyid Husayn-i-Kashani (who-"often came into
>His presence and made Him laugh". An appreciation of humor
>implies/demands (?)
>the capacity to be "surprised". It seems that not 'everrything' was
>'forseen'.
Agreed. In any case, whether it would surprise Him or not, I don't
think that what is happening, or not happening, in the administrative
community, is outside the scope of His prescriptions.
>> "My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the
>> tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and
>> security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly
>> established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels
>> which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass
>> unheeded." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
>> 286)
>
>This rings several cords with me. There seem to be many
>(miriad?)"counsels
>... suffered to pass unheeded." The counsels on 'true consultation',
>especialy the 'eddited' second precondition have gone unheeded. So too
>the core principle
>"Let deeds not words..."seems lost.
>It has been my longstanding view that rather than
>"unity can never be achieved so long as..."....Unity is instead
>assumed to exist within the community and many "counsels" are
>sacrificed upon the altar of preserving this psuedo unity/psuedo
>community.
Yes.
>> "That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and
>> mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of
>> all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in
>> no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an
>> all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and
>> all else naught but error." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
>> 254)
>> "The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He
>> perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the
>> remedy. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
>> 212)
>>
>> Do you agree with what Baha'u'llah says in those paragraphs?
>
>In the last two...I don't know anymore Jim. I am aware of some
>"prescribed
>remedies" that send the patient into a feever or frenzy before the
>"disease"
>is driven out. But I cannot make sense of a remedy (example to the
>world) that turns the recipients behaviour into something worse than
>what I would find
>in secular society.
You seem to be more obsessed with the AO than I am. I don't see the
remedy, the one common Faith, as the community administered by the
Universal House of Justice. I see the administrative community as one
instrument for informing people about that remedy, and for providing
an opportunity for people who want to, to practice applying it. As
feeble as it is, it is still serving that purpose.
>I have never been a 'joiner' of clubs, churches or
>organizations Jim...but I do have very diverse work/life experience-
>working class industrial, art school, welfare, street kids, psych
>disabled, drug addicts, prisons, education....
Maybe that's why I feel such a common bond with you.
>I say again in all
>sincerity- I have never encountered anything as nasty as a Baha'i in
>defence of the faith mode.
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think I've encountered worse. Please
don't ask me for examples!
>Give me the disturbed drug addict with the knife any day....I'm
>serious...at least with the addict I know what to expect...with
>Baha'is I am continualy
>caught off guard and astounded by the behaviours.
Same here. The most amazing thing to me is their stubborn refusal to
apply the guidance of the central figures and institutions they are
outwardly defending, to themselves.
>If there is 'remedy' in exaserbating the 'disease' it might be
>working...but
>I cannot see it.
Rod, do you really think that defensive and vigilante behavior is a
result of studying and practicing the prescriptions of Baha'u'llah?
Would you be interested in buying a bridge, or some land in Florida?
>> As I see it, Baha'u'llah has already diagnosed the illness you've been
>> highlighting, and prescribed the best possible remedy. Do you agree?
>
>Despite the fact that this is the question I have been thinking about
>the most....my answer is going to seem flippant.
>It doesn't fucking matter if "I agree" Jim...it doesn't matter if the
>issues I have highlighted are unlimately right or wrong or if
>Baha'u'llah
>has or has not already diagnosed the illnesses....the only way to find
>out
>is through consultation/discussion, consultation/discussion is a
>primary highlighted issue, consultation/discussion is prescribed
>remedy, consultation/
>discussion is ill,diseased,dead, connect and begin loop again.
>
>In a decade I have seen no chink in the anti consultative armour.
>Fred is right....it is a facade...a farce...a nasty slimy game devoid
>of
>ethics, morality, rules or a preparedness to discuss rules/guidelines.
Would you be willing to consider the possibility of practicing
consultation with someone who's interested in it?
>> If not, please tell me what those paragraphs mean to you.
>
>No...I agree/believe the remedy prescribed and the issues highlighted
>are the same or interdependent.
>
>> If you do agree, will you discuss with me how to apply His remedy?
>
>Sure...I can discuss it with you Jim...but my side of the conversation
>will be limited, brief and in the past tense. I no longer believe
>there
>is any interest or willingness within the Baha'i community to discuss
>the
>issue/s. I believe the Baha'i Technique is in full swing and operation
>and
>the only thing that would stop it is peer group pressure or AO
>intervention.
>Snowballs hope in hell of either.
I wish you could think of something besides the AO. Do you think the
AO is all that matters to Baha'u'llah? If not, then why should it
consume your whole life?
>> After all your experience with other people's unwillingness to discuss
>> your issues, I'm sure you understand how I would feel if you turned
>> away from discussing this issue with me.
>
>No, I would not turn away from the discussion Jim...but I will
>struggle to
>find new things to say on these issues or new ways of saying them.
>For some time I have been considering a thread on the 'Deeds not
>Words' theme
>and how it is applicable to a realm, like this, that is exclusivly
>'words'.
>What 'deeds' can be preformed?-
>1/ Preserve life, never shun or killfile (beyond a set period)
>2/ Answer direct perinant questions..
>3/ Read carefully, respond to what is written not your assumptions
>about it...
>etc,etc....
Agreed. Have you searched the writings of Baha'u'llah for applicable
principles and prescriptions? Do you think you're already applying
all of them? If not, have you thought of trying to practice the ones
you haven't applied yet?
>Hope that came close to answering some of the questions/issues.
Beyond my wildest dreams.
Jim
dm...@ix.netcom.com
> On 28 Feb 2004 08:24:16 -0800, kas...@tpg.com.au (Rod) wrote:
>
> Rod, in my view, now that we've recognized that there is no force
> field protecting the administrative community from abuse, corruption,
> and all the other ills of society, I see no reason to treat social
> ills in the administrative community differently from the ones outside
> of it. I don't see one set of prescriptions in the words of
> Baha'u'llah, for responding to injustice and oppression in general,
> and another set of prescriptions for responding to injustice and
> oppression within the community administrated by the Universal House
> of Justice.
Dear Jim,
In this discussion there are implications that the Administrative
Order does not receive any surrounding protection in its activities.
The very essence of this Faith is that for the first time in
recorded history, that God has given mankind a plan that will
ensure protection and guidance in the matter of establishing
laws, and in the matter of fairness of justice.
I agree with your intention to emphasize the Writings of
Baha'u'llah. Those very Writings summarize the hopes of past
religions, and emphasize the New World order, an Order of Justice
and Peace. Admitedly, we are not anywhere near there yet, but
does not your lack of confidence in the present UHJ having any
special protections or capabilities smack of questioning the
roots of the Baha'i Faith?
And I agree that ther are not two sets of prescriptions available
from Baha'u'llah, for different situations. He left us one set of
prescriptions, to be administered fairly among all institutions.
If the pot the Administration uses for someone else can't be used
in judging its own conduct, then there is something badly wrong.
Sincerely,
David
Dear Jim,
In the above, there are implications that the Administrative Order
is not going to receive any surrounding protection in its activities.
The very essence of this Faith is that for the first time in
recorded history, that God has given mankind a plan that will
ensure protection and guidance in the matter of establishing
laws, and in the matter of fairness of justice.
Jim Habegger
I have unlimited confidence in the decisions of the Universal House of
Justice, which I study carefully, and apply conscientiously and
rigorously. I adore the strategies it's promoting for the development
of the Baha'i community. I would love to see everyone rallying around
the goals and plans it's promoting. Of all its messages I've seen,
there have only been two that challenged me.
at first.
>And I agree that ther are not two sets of prescriptions available
>from Baha'u'llah, for different situations. He left us one set of
>prescriptions, to be administered fairly among all institutions.
>If the pot the Administration uses for someone else can't be used
>in judging its own conduct, then there is something badly wrong.
Exactly.
Jim
Jim Habegger
Injustice, oppression, and other social problems, in the community
administered by the Universal House of Justice, seem to be major
concerns for you. One of my issues is the application of
Baha'u'llah's prescriptions to the problems in our society.
Before discussing how to apply Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, in our
response to social problems in the administrated community, I'd like
to say some things about applying Baha'u'llah's prescriptions in
general.
The first thing I see Baha'u'llah advising me to do, is to practice
applying his prescriptions to myself. That's an assignment that will
never be finished. I just try to make it a big part of my life all
the time.
The next thing I see Him advising me to do, is whatever I can think
of, to help lead other people to Him.
What do you see Baha'u'llah advising you to do, in His writings?
Next, before we zoom in on Baha'i social problems, I'd like to discuss
how to apply Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, in our response to social
problems in general. Then I'd like to discuss any special
considerations that you think apply uniquely to the administrated
community.
What I see Baha'u'llah advising me to do about social problems, in
general:
Well, I agree with you. Take counsel together. That's what I would
like to do with you.
Now, what do you see Baha'u'llah advising you and me to do about
people who are not interested in consulting about the problems, with a
view to resolving them?
What if you and I are the only ones who are interested? What do you
see Baha'u'llah advising us to do next?
Next question: What special considerations do you think apply, in
consulting about social problems in the community administered by the
Universal House of Justice?
I used to have the illusion that membership in the Baha'i Faith
automatically meant an interest in consulting about how to apply the
prescriptions of Baha'u'llah, to whatever goals, problems, or
disagreements we have. I've left that delusion behind, Rod. I've
left that delusion behind. I see it now as a kind of sectarianism,
along with the idea that the only place to look for people I can
consult with, about how to apply Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, is in
the administrated community.
Jim
Jim Habegger
1. I thought you were insisting that there were no written procedures
incorporating the elements of due process, and that nothing was being
done to correct and prevent abuse and corruption in the administrated
community. I may have misread some of your posts. If not, that's
something that still needs to be resolved.
2. I want to discuss with you how to apply Baha'u'llah's
prescriptions, in our responses to social problems in the Baha'i
community.
Do you have any issues with me, that we haven't resolved yet?
Jim
Rod
> Jim Habegger <jimha...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<jfl2401d1118vbpf6...@4ax.com>...
> > On 28 Feb 2004 08:24:16 -0800, kas...@tpg.com.au (Rod) wrote:
> The very essence of this Faith is that for the first time in
> recorded history, that God has given mankind a plan that will
> ensure protection and guidance in the matter of establishing
> laws, and in the matter of fairness of justice.
Oh BOLLOCKS!
"All should be ready and willing to set aside every sense of personal
grievance- justified or unjustified- for the good of the Cause." SE
It does not matter what abuse transpires within the Baha'i
community...
it does not matter how frequent or how severe...the above is the RULE
OF CULTURE- "Get over it...forgive, forget, move
on...trancend...detatch...
maintain Unity and Love....ignore justice and let them do you over
again".
"...set aside every sense of personal grievance- justified or
unjustified- for the good of the Cause"...no qualifications, no
exceptions...just set it aside.
It makes more room for them to get you again if you set it aside.
"ensure protection and guidance in the matter of establishing
laws, and in the matter of fairness of justice."?
Complete bullshit that defies lodgic, experience and the clear record.
Go tell it to the Kirrae Whurrong Aboriginal community left in the
lurch
by the Baha'is....."matter of fairness"?....'fairly' quick abandonment
of
principle and promice was all we saw!
Rod.
Rod
> On 28 Feb 2004 08:24:16 -0800, kas...@tpg.com.au (Rod) wrote:
>
> Rod, in my view, now that we've recognized that there is no force
> field protecting the administrative community from abuse, corruption,
> and all the other ills of society,
No "force field" and no protective systems as well developed, broadly
accepted and skillfully deployed as those in secular society.
In fact there is contempt for these 'Old World Order' systems from
Baha'is who have nothing 1/8th as effective.
> I see no reason to treat social
> ills in the administrative community differently from the ones outside
> of it.
I do. The Baha'i community should be starting on a level playing
field with the rest of society....with the same ills and deficits in
individual
and collective behaviours. The 'Prescription' has been taken, in whole
or in part, there should be some sign of 'recovery'. Remember the
secular patient is 'dying' and the Baha'i is 'getting better'....we should
be able to see the evidence of this....however marginal.
Nothing there.
> I don't see one set of prescriptions in the words of
> Baha'u'llah, for responding to injustice and oppression in general,
> and another set of prescriptions for responding to injustice and
> oppression within the community administrated by the Universal House
> of Justice.
I think that like any Scripture you can validate any position depending
upon what you select and what you ignore. What you see as a 'prescription"
I see more as a principle-("Get yourselves Justice/fit....buy some runners,
get a bike, whatever suits your local needs, train yourself up") and neither
of our perspectives matter because the AO/community culture perspective
is-"If you get hit by a bus while out exercising it's your own spiritual
fault...
get over it.....justice muscle comes from sticking together and loving each
other....nothing else"
> >> As I see it, the faults of the most stubborn and abusive AO defenders,
> >> and the defects of the Baha'i Community, that you've been highlighting
> >> in Internet discussions, are all part of the condition that
> >> Baha'u'llah describes above,and would come as no surprise to Him at
all.
> >
> >I can't see it Jim. Not in that quote. It does not strike me as
> >specificaly applicable toor directed towards the Baha'i AO/community.
>
> Does it strike you as specifically *not* applicable to or directed
> towards the AO community?
No, it strikes me as a highly improbable propisition.
It reminds me of conversations I used to have with a young Indian
Communist who advocated that Communism would not only take
India.....but also China and the Soviet Union.
"A Communist revolution [prescrption] in Russia"?
"Yes, what is missing is the highly educated [deepened] Communist
elite to sweep away the Old Order"
"Like Pol Pot"?
> >Do the "thick clouds" envelop all (including Baha'is)?
>
> All including members of the community administered by the Universal
> House of Justice. I don't believe this community has a privileged
> status protecting it from the ills of society.
Then it aught have at least equivalent of best practice secular immune
and protective systems...pluss some minimal Baha'i bonus?
Like I say...it looks to me, on the basis of diverse work/community
experience, to have worse and less than secular society.
If the Baha'i community was a factory it would be shut down
on OH&S grounds......no adequate guards on the machinery,
no trained operators.
> >I cannot see the
> >'consultation', I cannot see the 'transformation',
> >I cannot see the 'unity in diversity'....perhaps this is "all part" of
> >"the yoke of opression" but I don't know.
>
> That's how I see it now.
>
> Look again at what you can remember of the words of Baha'u'llah. I
> don't think the idea, that the community administered by the Universal
> House of Justice would be free of the injustice and oppression He
> describes, came from Him.
I think we are at slightly different points of referance Jim. I do not see
it in terms of "free of the injustice and oppression" but rather there is
an absence of recognition that Baha'is need guard against and protect
from injustice. (A different 'idea' than "free from" injustice?).
Secular society accepts this 'battle' and, doubting it will ever win,
fights in many effective ways.
Baha'is reject the 'battle' as a waste of time/energy....transform the
individual/society and establish Love'n'Unity and, hey presto!, there
will be no oppression battle to fight!
This is reflected in AO missives- "set asside all personal grievance"
through to Jerry Joplin online- "No pont putting protective measures
in place or seeking justice after the event....better to ensure bad things
don't happenl"
Magical thinking.....Lions cuddling lambs...."free of the injustice and
oppression".....did the idea come from Baha'u'llah?
I think not....but my view has allways been veiwed as heretical and anti
Faith....by the AO and majority of community.
You wish to persuade me to the Baha'i Revolution to liberate the Baha'i
Soviet? ;-)
Bit late for that comrade ;-)
'Snip' a chunk of agreement
> >In the last two...I don't know anymore Jim. I am aware of some
> >"prescribed
> >remedies" that send the patient into a feever or frenzy before the
> >"disease"
> >is driven out. But I cannot make sense of a remedy (example to the
> >world) that turns the recipients behaviour into something worse than
> >what I would find
> >in secular society.
>
> You seem to be more obsessed with the AO than I am.
I don't know Jim....I never used to talk about or criticise the AO
at all......only in as much as its behaviours reflected broad Baha'i
culture and cosmology.
> I don't see the
> remedy, the one common Faith, as the community administered by the
> Universal House of Justice. I see the administrative community as one
> instrument for informing people about that remedy, and for providing
> an opportunity for people who want to, to practice applying it. As
> feeble as it is, it is still serving that purpose.
Yes, I agree......but within that charter it has a Duty of Care to
protect...
and I do not see it serving that purpose.
> >I have never been a 'joiner' of clubs, churches or
> >organizations Jim...but I do have very diverse work/life experience-
> >working class industrial, art school, welfare, street kids, psych
> >disabled, drug addicts, prisons, education....
>
> Maybe that's why I feel such a common bond with you.
Want to start a club, a faction or a schism? ;-)
> >I say again in all
> >sincerity- I have never encountered anything as nasty as a Baha'i in
> >defence of the faith mode.
>
> Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think I've encountered worse. Please
> don't ask me for examples!
Nha Jim....I'm serious....There are people out there who would
steal opium supositories from their grandmothers arse...but most,
when caught and cornered, retain the residual common decency to
cop it sweet.
You can catch a TRB BIGS with his arm up his grans arse on a
daily basis and they look at you straight faced-"Just checking her
temperature".
They are not ashamed or embarresed by what they do here...
yet think my colourfull language crude.
> >Give me the disturbed drug addict with the knife any day....I'm
> >serious...at least with the addict I know what to expect...with
> >Baha'is I am continualy
> >caught off guard and astounded by the behaviours.
>
> Same here. The most amazing thing to me is their stubborn refusal to
> apply the guidance of the central figures and institutions they are
> outwardly defending, to themselves.
I can only guess that when defending the faith from non person
heritic terrorists the rules of the Baha'i Convention do not apply.
For me the whole thing has been a healing/restorative experience Jim...
I came into the community with very middle class Baha'i wannabe
spiritual aspirations....in dealing with online Baha'is I have increasingly
returned to my working class dog origins.
You would not think it but I was once a very nice polite well spoken
Baha'i ;-)
I am now quite comfortable and happy with the old found capacity to
tell the pretentious wankers to fuck off......and I thank them for the
education ;-)
> >If there is 'remedy' in exaserbating the 'disease' it might be
> >working...but I cannot see it.
>
> Rod, do you really think that defensive and vigilante behavior is a
> result of studying and practicing the prescriptions of Baha'u'llah?
Selectivley....yes....eroniously yes....and wether it is in whole or
in part or in complete detatched error.....it is almost all pervasive...
vast and intrenched....closed and hostile....savage in its own defense.
Whatever its origin....I want no part of it....I see no way forward
to change or influence it
I am not (as Nima extolls) "spiritual warrior" or "David against Goliath"...
I'm the bloke who sees the artillary (ours) trained on the trenches (ours)
to get the lads to charge or stop fraternising with 'the enemy' and I say-
"Fuck this.....I'm off Jim".
;-)
> Would you be interested in buying a bridge, or some land in Florida?
Well.....actually....I once saw a documentary about a guy who
had first pick (ahead of two brothers) of inherited land in Florida (I
think).
He chose some acres of the very worst land, a thin skin of topsoil above
solid coral rock....usless land..........hang on Jim....here ya go-
http://www.coralcastle.com/home.asp
http://antigravitypower.tripod.com/CoralCastle/photos.html
I have been meaning to track that guy down for years...thanks for
reminding me...aint the Internet a hoot ;-)
You can even learn about 'anti-gravity' ;-)
Snip
> Would you be willing to consider the possibility of practicing
> consultation with someone who's interested in it?
Yea...Banjo taught me to stand prepared to talk to anyone...
I'll give it a go Jim ;-)
> >> If not, please tell me what those paragraphs mean to you.
> >
> >No...I agree/believe the remedy prescribed and the issues highlighted
> >are the same or interdependent.
> >
> >> If you do agree, will you discuss with me how to apply His remedy?
> >
> >Sure...I can discuss it with you Jim...but my side of the conversation
> >will be limited, brief and in the past tense. I no longer believe
> >there
> >is any interest or willingness within the Baha'i community to discuss
> >the
> >issue/s. I believe the Baha'i Technique is in full swing and operation
> >and
> >the only thing that would stop it is peer group pressure or AO
> >intervention.
> >Snowballs hope in hell of either.
>
> I wish you could think of something besides the AO.
You don't think that the AO is important in its capacity and responsibility
to curb and guide behaviours? Impliment procedures? Facilitate justice?
(I'm pretty good at thinking about food and sex Jim....but right now i
don't know what the point would be ;-)
> Do you think the AO is all that matters to Baha'u'llah?
Nope....but it was allways important to me.
The way I figured it there was a range of 'spiritual' relationships/realms
within all faiths.
Me and God external.
Me and God internal
Me and God in others
etc
All religions offered exploration of these realms/relationships.
Only the Baha'i Faith offered (in my view) the potential of
Holy Administration....Me and others in God in Action towards
Vision beyond bandaid measures.
> If not, then why should it consume your whole life?
Don't think it has or does Jim....community culture has allways been
a bigger issue to me.
Snip
> >What 'deeds' can be preformed?-
> >1/ Preserve life, never shun or killfile (beyond a set period)
> >2/ Answer direct perinant questions..
> >3/ Read carefully, respond to what is written not your assumptions
> >about it...
> >etc,etc....
>
> Agreed. Have you searched the writings of Baha'u'llah for applicable
> principles and prescriptions?
Some not all.
> Do you think you're already applying all of them?
Some not all, some more days than others, some circumstances depending.
> If not, have you thought of trying to practice the ones
> you haven't applied yet?
Not lately...............diminished motivation ;-)
> >Hope that came close to answering some of the questions/issues.
>
> Beyond my wildest dreams.
A pleasure tp please.
Rod.
Jim Habegger
bommyknocker thread.
This may take a few days.
Jim
Rod
> Rod,
>
> Injustice, oppression, and other social problems, in the community
> administered by the Universal House of Justice, seem to be major
> concerns for you.
Used to be....now my minor concern is to continue to expose the
"Injustice, oppression, and other social problems, in the community".
Anybody conducting "independent investigation of truth" deserves to
know what kind of shit box they might be getting themselves into.
Community Service.
> One of my issues is the application of
> Baha'u'llah's prescriptions to the problems in our society.
>
> Before discussing how to apply Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, in our
> response to social problems in the administrated community, I'd like
> to say some things about applying Baha'u'llah's prescriptions in
> general.
>
> The first thing I see Baha'u'llah advising me to do, is to practice
> applying his prescriptions to myself. That's an assignment that will
> never be finished. I just try to make it a big part of my life all
> the time.
I do not share your view that the "first thing I see Baha'u'llah advising
me to do, is to practice applying his prescriptions to myself.". I believe
this to be part of the selective misreading and misrepresentation of
Baha'i teachings. The application of 'His prescriptions' was, in my
view, to be personal/individual and social/communal- simultaneously
and with equal weight and vigour.
This Baha'i cultural misnomer of- "change/transform myself 'first' and
the world will subsequently change/transform as a consequence of
ripple effect" is as much of a crock as the 'trickle down theory of
personal wealth/capitalism"- "The more I have the more will drip down
to the poor".
> The next thing I see Him advising me to do, is whatever I can think
> of, to help lead other people to Him.
Again I do not share your 'sequential' view Jim. Mine is that no matter
how fucked up, non prayerful, un spiritual I might be my duty is to help
other people whenever possible whenever I am capable. This may involve
pointing them towards Him...but even this is not always the case. I have
worked with enough schizophrenics to know that introduction to Baha'i
often serves as no more than another contributing confusion...and certainly
not a healing.
> What do you see Baha'u'llah advising you to do, in His writings?
To hold Justice as the Best Beloved of All Things.
That's my selective understanding and it implies that self transformation
is not the first or even essential precursor to facilitating justice.
> Next, before we zoom in on Baha'i social problems, I'd like to discuss
> how to apply Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, in our response to social
> problems in general.
I do not see how this can be done without the establishment of Holy
Administration...unless the fundamentals in the flow of resources
(human/material)
are transformed, as He prescribed, much of what is preformed is deck chair
shuffling/bandaid coverup.
> Then I'd like to discuss any special
> considerations that you think apply uniquely to the administrated
> community.
"administrated" or administrative?
> What I see Baha'u'llah advising me to do about social problems, in
> general:
>
> Well, I agree with you. Take counsel together. That's what I would
> like to do with you.
.>
> Now, what do you see Baha'u'llah advising you and me to do about
> people who are not interested in consulting about the problems, with a
> view to resolving them?
People in the Baha'i community? People who are presented with an argument
for the consideration of justice issues and ignore, cut, misrepresent, lie,
slander
and vilify? Well, first of all, I believe there is an obligation to attempt
to explain
the offensiveness of these behaviours....in line with Baha'u'llah's
recommendations
for dealing with liars...(paraphrasing)- don't let them get away with it, it
only
serves to encourage them.
> What if you and I are the only ones who are interested? What do you
> see Baha'u'llah advising us to do next?
If the issue is important, a justice issue, continue to raise it and
elaborate
upon it until people come to understand. In like manner if the issues are
attacked/misrepresented then continue to defend the issue and expose
the lie. (Go have a quick look at Bnet Challenge Board Jim. Both Demise
and Anna, who during the bun fight with Effy/Pith/Dust never (to my
knowledge) uttered a word in support of Due Process have both come
out to express sympathy/support for this issue.)
What to do next? If justice is the best beloved then fight on for it...
from the outside if necessary.
> Next question: What special considerations do you think apply, in
> consulting about social problems in the community administered by the
> Universal House of Justice?
Unless there is a distinction that I am missing....same as above.
> I used to have the illusion that membership in the Baha'i Faith
> automatically meant an interest in consulting about how to apply the
> prescriptions of Baha'u'llah, to whatever goals, problems, or
> disagreements we have. I've left that delusion behind, Rod. I've
> left that delusion behind. I see it now as a kind of sectarianism,
> along with the idea that the only place to look for people I can
> consult with, about how to apply Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, is in
> the administrated community.
A lot of illusions and delusions get left behind along the way Jim...
there is no Baha'i principle they have not abandoned and no standard
of common decency they have not betrayed.
So....I am outside the community looking to protect the unwary seeker.
You are inside looking out to consult......to what end Jim?
What do you envisage as the objective for you?
Rod...appreciating an exchange in which I am not obliged to shout-
"I didn't say that"!
;-)
Swiss Heritage
> So....I am outside the community looking to protect the unwary seeker.
> You are inside looking out to consult......to what end Jim?
> What do you envisage as the objective for you?
Some of my aspirations:
1. Develop our friendship
2. Mutual encouragement and support, starting with moral support,
possibly leading to practical support.
3. Learn from each other.
Some of my intentions:
1. Try to understand better what you're doing, offer encouragement and
support, and learn from your ideas and experiences.
2. Be prepared for you to do the same with me if you so choose.
Jim