Kazemzadeh, Semple and al-Qaida
Juan Cole
separation of religion and state. The need for religious leaders to
let politicians do the ruling is a key value stated over and over
again in Baha'i scripture.
Unfortunately, a weird Baha'i sub-cult has arisen. It structurally
resembles al-Qaida, and differs from al-Qaida only with regard to
methods, not ideals. It does not usually employ violence or terrorism
(though persons with this mindset have beaten up friends of mind).
And, most frighteningly of all, it has taken over and subverted the
main institutions of the Baha'i faith.
1)
Al-Qaida believes in the destruction of secular, civil governments and
replacing them with a fascist theocracy.
Baha'i theocrats believe in the destruction of secular, civil
governments and replacing them with a fascist theocracy. Ian Semple,
a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.
One pilgrim wrote,
"I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long
talks about this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be
ruled by houses of justice and there will eventually be no distinction
between church and state, with rather snide and smug comments about
how at last the world will finally get it right and have God and
Government fused through the power of the Baha'i covenant."
Note that this is the opposite of what `Abdu'l-Baha says in the
Treatise on Leadership:
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/trans/vol2/absiyasi.htm
Semple also put out a letter from the Secretariat of the UHJ:
"As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March
1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the
relationship of the Baha'i institutions to those of the country in
which the Baha'is reside make it unthinkable that they would ever
purpose to violate a country's constitution or so to meddle in its
political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of
government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of
abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any
means imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means,
decide to adopt Baha'i laws and practices and modify its constitution
or method of government accordingly."
In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
elected democratically and then abolishing democracy. By the way, the
Islamists (with al-Qaida links) tried this in Algeria, and the
democrats and secularists fought back, embroiling the country in a
civil war that has cost 100,000 lives. This is the sort of conflict
between theocratic Baha'is and the rest of society that Semple is
urging on the world. At that point would the Baha'i theocrats refrain
from violence?
2) Al-Qaida wishes to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate as the One
World Government.
Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
envision it ruling the world.
3) Al-Qaida despises parliamentary democracy as corrupt, money-driven
and unrepresentative. It wishes to overthrow parliaments and
institute authoritarian religious rule instead.
Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
for civil government. Long-time Baha'i leader Firuz Kazemzadeh said
in 1988:
"If somebody is dissatisfied with a local assembly, he is not
prevented from appealing to the NSA . . . It is something else when
whispering campaigns or petitions are sent around for signatures
objecting to the activities of the institutions. That also may be
something which is countenanced by American democracy but has nothing
to do with the Baha’i Faith. We must always remember that our
institutions are an unusual and unique combination of theocracy in the
best sense of the term with democracy. The institutions of the
Baha’i Faith have not been created by us, the institutions have
been created by God.”
Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
created by Kazemzadeh.
4) Al-Qaida establishes cells throughout the world to work for
theocracy, and recruits innocent Muslims at mosques.
Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
world-view. Many "Auxiliary Board Members" and Assistants are secret
theocrats who play dirty tricks on ordinary Baha'is to force them out
of the Faith.
The Ian Semple/Kazemzadeh theocratic ideology aims at destroying
American democracy. It aims at gutting the Constitution and
abolishing Congress in favor of Kazemzadeh's weird, secretive,
authoritarian way of ruling.
5) Al-Qaida demands absolute obedience from its recruits, and no
dissent is permitted.
Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
tolerate no dissent. Kazemzadeh told a group of Baha'i intellectuals,
"the word dissent implies separating oneself from the activities of
the group and putting oneself outside the mainstream of the community,
and that is contrary to Baha'i practice.”
You can't disagree with the NSA.
The dangers to the pristine Baha'i faith, with its values of
tolerance, allowing the expression of diverse points of view, and firm
commitment to the separation of religion and state, of this theocratic
cult that has taken control of the community cannot be overstated.
Moreover, it is a threat to the whole world.
Now that we have seen where such authoritarian theocracy leads, on
September 11, I call upon all Baha'is to step back, reread the
scriptures, and adhere to the real values of our religion.
cheers Juan Cole
Rick Schaut
"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> separation of religion and state.
Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi
Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.
> Ian Semple,
> a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
> cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
> when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.
Again, we get another outright lie from Dr. Cole, and the only thing that's
proferred to back this up is a pilgrim's note. I guess Dr. Cole is simply
too busy to actually take the time to address other forms of primary
evidence that would countradict a single pilgrim's note.
> In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.
Yet another outright lie. The statement refers to standing Baha'i policies
regarding political non-involvement, which Dr. Cole knows forbits Baha'is
from running for office within a democratic system that's premised on
getting elected through membership in political parties. Dr. Cole knows
that no Baha'i would countenance the notion of "getting elected
democratically and then abolishing democracy." Thus, his statement cannot
be regarded as anything but an outright lie.
> Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
> envision it ruling the world.
Again, a distortion of the truth so gross as to constitute a lie. Do
Baha'is believe the Universal House of Justice will, some day, be the center
piece of what is referred to as the World Order of Baha'u'llah? Yes.
However, at that point, any similarity between what Baha'is envision and any
Al-Qaida dream for establishing a caliphate ends. Dr. Cole also knows this
to be true, but clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of
which many can be made, not the least of which is the complete absence of
any use of force or of any effort to undermine existing governments in
Baha'i activities.
> Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> for civil government.
Yet another lie. Baha'i institutions are, indeed, freely elected. Nor, for
that matter, do Baha'is seek to substitute Baha'i institutions for civil
institutions. Baha'is believe that, some day, when the majority of the
population had become Baha'i, Baha'i institutions will form the pattern by
which civil government is exercised. That, however, is very different from
simply seeking to supplant civil government with Baha'i institutions.
> Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
> created by Kazemzadeh.
Dr. Cole knows full well that Dr. Kazemzadeh's version of Baha'i
institutions has plenty of support in the writings of Shoghi Effendi,
particularly Shoghi Effendi's letter known as "The Dispensation of
Baha'u'llah." So, yet again, we get an outright lie from Dr. Cole.
> Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
> recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> world-view.
A charge that's been repeated many times without substantive evidence to
back it up. Yet, given the track record so far in this post, one has little
faith in Dr. Cole's ability to produce any such evidence without twisting it
to mean what he wants it to mean.
> Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
> tolerate no dissent.
Actually, Baha'i institutions tolerate a great deal of "dissent" when it's
voiced through proper channels. It is a very different model of governance
than that which is prevalent in common western democracies, and, of this,
there can be little doubt. Whether or not it can be accurately
characterised as an outright "theocracy" would only depend on the extent to
which one would highlight similarities while ingoring important differences.
But one does have to wonder why Dr. Cole can't simply allow the Writings of
Shoghi Effendi to speak for themselves? Why does Dr. Cole have to resort to
either outright lies or distortions of the truth so gross as to be
indistinguishable from lies?
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
Michael McKenny
Many thanks for posting this cogent and coherent analysis of the
similarities and dangers of Baha'i and of Islamic fundamentalism. The
world has suffered too much from too many generations of fundamentalists,
whichever prophet they claimed to be following, for us to welcome yet
another religion succumbing to the same evil.
I want to make it clear that I abhor the treatment which has been
inflicted by Baha'i fundamentalists upon you and other Baha'i liberals.
The first thing I noticed on joining Talisman One was the hounding of
liberals and the very existence of fundamentalism in what I had long
believed a quite tolerant and universal religion. I spoke up and the
consequences are history.
The enormous harm that has been inflicted on Baha'i by those in that
religion intolerant of the expression of the diversity of views, and the
tragic consequences of fundamentalism in Islam and other religions does
not invalidate completely the opinion that a theocratic rulership can
work. Personally, I am a liberal democrat, and I also acknowledge the
validity of views that the Tsar or the Chinese Emperor or the Caliph
or the Universal House of Justice be empowered to administer affairs,
on the condition that this can be accomplished with respect for basic
human rights and essential ethical (spiritual, to Baha'is) principles.
The most telling point against this vision of the UHJ meddling in
political administration is that it has shown so little respect for human
rights and behaved so as to make people grateful it lacked more capacity
to cause harm. This does not mean that one may not validly hold the
opinion that there can be a UHJ, a Caliph, a Tsar or an Emperor with
sufficient constitutional restraints to head a state, even a global
state.
I think it is important to distinguish the characteristics that are
unacceptable (intolerance of other opinions, unquestioning obedience of
any totalitarian command whatsoever, visualization of a duality of the
elect or chosen and the evil other, suspicion of reasoned thought, etc.)
from a laudable desire to return to the golden days of Islam or to reach
for a future golden age in Baha'i. In my opinion, one may validly aspire
to restore the Caliphate, the Tsar, the Emperor or to see the Universal
House of Justice triumphant, only not through violence, nor through the
despicable behaviour which is recent Baha'i history. There are many valid
political opinions, and some concepts of imperial and theocratic rule,
even if they are not mine, remain valid.
Thrice Three Blessings, Michael.
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
Michael McKenny
Methinks thine argument and thine frequent denials would be much more
credible were Juan and other Baha'i liberals within Baha'i demonstrating
to a sceptical non-Baha'i world how the universalist vision of Baha'u'llah
and the actual respect in practise by Baha'is and their institutions for
the natural diversity of human understandings differed from the intolerance
of Islamic and other fundamentalism.
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.
Rick Schaut
"Michael McKenny" <bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:a419l2$1k2$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> Methinks thine argument and thine frequent denials would be much more
> credible
Methinks the labelling of my comments as "denials" is little more than a
smokescreen designed to take attention away from the very obvious lies in
Juan's post. You know them to be lies just as much as I do.
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
Sorry, I thought you were denying that there was a correspondence
between Baha'i fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism. So, you are
admitting the correspondence. Good. Overcoming denial is the first step
in resolving the problem.
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.
>> Methinks thine argument and thine frequent denials would be much more
>> credible
>Methinks the labelling of my comments as "denials" is little more than a
>smokescreen designed to take attention away from the very obvious lies in
>Juan's post. You know them to be lies just as much as I do.
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
--
Rick Schaut
> Sorry, I thought you were denying that there was a correspondence
> between Baha'i fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism.
No, Michael, I've pointed out specifically where Dr. Cole's statements of
fact are simply not true. This isn't a matter of opinion. Juan is flat out
lieing, Michael.
Michael McKenny
Sorry, I read too quickly. I didn't notice you providing the correct
information. Lying is deliberate falsehood. Maybe Juan has had a lapse of
memory or maybe he's wandered into an alternate universe or maybe a
thousand other things. I deny telepathic capacity, and they say telepaths
need line of sight and Ottawa sort of curves away several hundred miles
from Michigan, so I don't know that he's deliberately telling untruths.
I'll try to check again your presentation of the true and accurate
info. I didn't notice it the first time I hastily scanned your post. I'll
try again.
To focus on fact and avoidance of ad hominems such as deliberate
presentation of info known to be incorrect. Even if you do it, the issue
is the fact, nothing to do with you or you intent, which, gods be praised,
I'm not inside your head to determine.
To being able to express avariety of opinions, including opinions that
authorities have got things wrong, Michael.
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
You assert the follwing is a deliberate untruth. I have your claim
to balance against Juan's claim. You even admit that Juan has witness
corroboration of his claim! I'm very busy, but not too busy to read your
other evidence. Present it. You also are insisting on your own view
of scripture, denying Juan his personal understanding. Although you
assert, to my utter astonsihment, (as the world I come from is one
where Baha'i authorities and their supporters hounded this soul until he
resigned from the Baha'i Faith and to this day they don't admit he belongs)
Juan is issuing an official reinterpretation, you're the guy insisting
he's not entitled to his opinion.
To Freedom of thought and expression, Michael.
"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> separation of religion and state.
Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi
Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.
> Ian Semple,
> a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
> cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
> when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.
Again, we get another outright lie from Dr. Cole, and the only thing that's
proferred to back this up is a pilgrim's note. I guess Dr. Cole is simply
too busy to actually take the time to address other forms of primary
evidence that would countradict a single pilgrim's note.
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
Hey, man, I recall on the original Talisman I think this guy arguing
with me on this very point, insisting there was no such thing as the
Baha'i Faith planning to administer the world in the future. After I
posted the appropriate quote he went away to meditate before refuting
me, and he never posted a refutation.
What are you objecting to here, that there is a Baha'i concept that
the UHJ will administer the entire planet in a theocratic system, or
that this will only come about in a democratic fashion. Are you insisting
that it will come about in a non-democratic fashion? Are you talking about
jihads and coups?
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.
> In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.
Yet another outright lie. The statement refers to standing Baha'i policies
regarding political non-involvement, which Dr. Cole knows forbits Baha'is
from running for office within a democratic system that's premised on
getting elected through membership in political parties. Dr. Cole knows
that no Baha'i would countenance the notion of "getting elected
democratically and then abolishing democracy." Thus, his statement cannot
be regarded as anything but an outright lie.
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
What's the distinction? Sorry, I don't see it. You mean, that it
won't be a question of seeking? You're not just going to try? You're
going to succeed? Or do you see a distinction between the US Congress
dissolving itself and "seek to substitute". My language skills aren't
up to this. Spell it out, bud. What's the difference?
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.
> Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> for civil government.
Yet another lie. Baha'i institutions are, indeed, freely elected. Nor, for
that matter, do Baha'is seek to substitute Baha'i institutions for civil
institutions. Baha'is believe that, some day, when the majority of the
population had become Baha'i, Baha'i institutions will form the pattern by
which civil government is exercised. That, however, is very different from
simply seeking to supplant civil government with Baha'i institutions.
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
Great. Just how does the Baha'i fundamentalist vision really differ
from that of the Islamists and the Caliphate? Is it that the Caliph will
be a hereditary individual and the UHJ will be elected? Just how do you
hound people like Juan out of the religion, send around Counsellors and
ABMs to talk to people about the posting of appropriate understandings to
the Internet, boot people like Alison Marshall out of the Baha'i Faith and
say there's an enormous distortion, consisting a lie.
By the Morrigan, mate, I can fully understand how someone like Juan
could say that you've so distorted Baha'u'llah's vision of universal love,
harmony and world peace that you've basically constituted a lie, but I do
not at all see how wrong Juan is. Spell it out, bud. Just how do you
distinguish the future role of the UHJ from that of the Caliph in Islam
as envisioned by such as the Taliban (I reiterate that it is valid to
postulate the Caliphate or the triumph of the UHJ as long as human rights
etc are maintained) -- in the thoughtless obedience of any command soever,
in the trampling on human rights, including the rights of women, in the
opposition to reason, in the insistence on only one true reading of
scripture, etc.? Fill us in, mate. What's the difference?
Expectantly, Michael.
> Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
> envision it ruling the world.
Again, a distortion of the truth so gross as to constitute a lie. Do
Baha'is believe the Universal House of Justice will, some day, be the center
piece of what is referred to as the World Order of Baha'u'llah? Yes.
However, at that point, any similarity between what Baha'is envision and any
Al-Qaida dream for establishing a caliphate ends. Dr. Cole also knows this
to be true, but clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of
which many can be made...
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
What Sliders' World did you fly in from? No force? What the blazes
is in all those old archives I'm going through if not force? You have
people like Rick Shaut, like Brent Porier, like Counsellor Birkman, etc.
insisting on one true understanding on line, and, in the case of Birkland
paying people like Juan visits on account of what they post to e-mail
lists. You have people like Juan being hounded (forced) out of Baha'i. You
have the UHJ booting people out who can't be pressured (forced) to shut up,
as a warning that if one is articulate and wishes to be a Baha'i one must
toe the party line. Are we supposed to believe that you guys who so altered
the other stuff in Baha'i really are to be trusted, if you end up in
political power a la Taliban that you won't use identical force a la
Taliban? You may honestly believe that, but Juan or anyone else would sure
as Blazes not be lying to express a quite valid alternate opinion.
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.
>to be true, but clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of
>which many can be made, not the least of which is the complete absence of
>any use of force...
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
Juan's point is that Baha'i fundamentalists envisage the future day
when the democratically elected secular government will dissolve itself
and the administration of the affairs of the Baha'i world will be done
by the Baha'i institutions. Do you deny this? Are you in a meditative
mood? How fun it is to be blurry and say, "No way, we respect the elected
government", (until we can take control)."
> or of any effort to undermine existing governments in Baha'i activities.
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Dermod Ryder
"Rick Schaut" <rssc...@email.msn.NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3c642338$1...@news.microsoft.com...
>
> "Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for
a
> > separation of religion and state.
>
> Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah.
Shoghi
> Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.
So there's NO universal love, NO tolerance and NO separation of church
and state. Thanks for that confirmation that the current re-modelled
version of the BF is as far from the vision of the founder as the Sun
is from Uranus! It's a religion of fear and hatred, spies and
enforcement of official viewpoints and you well represent the pinnacle
of the tired hacks trotted out periodically by the AO to reveal its
hypocrisy to the world.
The rest of your post is the usual obfuscatory garbage!
> > Ian Semple,
> > a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
> > cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a
future
> > when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.
>
> Again, we get another outright lie from Dr. Cole, and the only thing
that's
> proferred to back this up is a pilgrim's note. I guess Dr. Cole is
simply
> too busy to actually take the time to address other forms of primary
> evidence that would countradict a single pilgrim's note.
Produce the evidence!
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
Q.E.D., man. This Juan fellow stands vindicated as a truth speaker by
thine own words.
To a Better Future, Michael.
>
Actually, Baha'i institutions tolerate a great deal of "dissent" when it's
voiced through proper channels. It is a very different model of governance
than that which is prevalent in common western democracies, and, of this,
there can be little doubt. Whether or not it can be accurately
characterised as an outright "theocracy" would only depend on the extent to
which one would highlight similarities while ingoring important differences.
>
Regards,
Rick Schaut
Michael McKenny
> --
Greetings, Rick.
I believe, sir, that Juan is suggesting that other understandings
of the ocean of Baha'u'llah's Revelation are possible besides the one
corresponding to the Taliban understanding of Islam.
To the Validity of More than a Single Understanding, Michael.
> Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
> created by Kazemzadeh.
Dr. Cole knows full well that Dr. Kazemzadeh's version of Baha'i
institutions has plenty of support in the writings of Shoghi Effendi,
particularly Shoghi Effendi's letter known as "The Dispensation of
Baha'u'llah." So, yet again, we get an outright lie from Dr. Cole.
Michael McKenny
Greetings, Rick.
Basically, you've simply been saying "Aint so," That doesn't
constitute proof. Post what proof you like. This one is a dilly. I
figure it matches the grand liberal conspiracy being hatched on Majnoon.
How many people were involved in that one, and what constituted the grand
conspiracy: "Hey, man, don't rouse things up by passing around petitions;
go back to studying Arabic verbs." Gods, I bet the FBI would love to deal
with that kind of conspiracy.
Anyway, again I'm not telepathic and even were I telepathic these
cells are not, Oghma be praised, within my line of sight.
Sorry, calling Juan wrong don't make him wrong, and calling him
deliberately wrong don't make that true either.
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.
> Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
> recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> world-view.
A charge that's been repeated many times without substantive evidence to
back it up. Yet, given the track record so far in this post, one has little
faith in Dr. Cole's ability to produce any such evidence without twisting it
to mean what he wants it to mean.
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.
--
Juan Cole
> "Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> > separation of religion and state.
Our own version of Jihad Johnny Walker Lindh, Jihad Ricky Schaut,
replies:
> Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi
> Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.
Uh, Jihad Ricky, Shoghi Effendi does not deny that the Baha'i Faith
stands for universal love, tolerance, and for a separation of religion
and state.
Shoghi Effendi wrote, "Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to
conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to
violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's
constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration
to supersede the government of their respective countries."
But Jihad Ricky wants to supersede the U.S. Constitution and to throw
down the U.S. government, implementing rule by his buddies in the
Baha'i "administrative order" in direct contravention of Shoghi
Effendi's clear instructions.
Baha'u'llah wrote in His own Will and Testament,
"Kings are the manifestations of the power, and the daysprings of the
might and riches, of God. Pray ye on their behalf. He hath invested
them with the rulership of the earth and hath singled out the hearts
of men as His Own domain. Conflict and contention are categorically
forbidden in His Book. This is a decree of God in this Most Great
Revelation. It is divinely preserved from annulment and is invested by
Him with the splendour of His confirmation."
He not only gave political power to civil rulers ("kings" and
"presidents,"), but he forbade Baha'is from making any turmoil the way
the Babis had in demanding that religious institutions take over. And
he even emphasized that this principle of non-intervention in politics
by God, who wants only the hearts of men for his Institutions, is
"divinely preserved from annulment."
And yet Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian Semple,
Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the
minbar of hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul
what is divinely preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political
power for the Baha'i religious institutions.
`Abdu'l-Baha writes of the dire need to keep religious leaders and
institutions from trying to run the country:
"The function of the religious leaders and the duties of the clerical
jurisprudents are to attend to spiritual affairs and to promulgate
divine attributes. Whenever the leaders of the manifest religion and
the pillars of the mighty divine law have intervened in the world of
political leadership, put forward their rulings and attempted to
manage affairs, it has ever caused the unity of the believers in the
one true God to be destroyed, and resulted in the dispersal of the
faithful into factions. The flames of turmoil flared up, and the blaze
of rebelliousness scorched the world. The country was plundered and
pillaged, and the people became the prisoners and hostages of
oppressors."
Not only has religious rule and theocracy ruined Iran, Afghanistan and
now the World Trade Center, it has ravaged the Baha'i faith itself,
putting it under the thumb of a small, secretive group of cultists who
deliberately keep it tiny and exploited.
As for Ian Semple, he has long crowed about the future Baha'i
theocracy in his caves, just as Bin Ladin does in his. The proof is
overwhelming.
"I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long
talks about this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be
ruled by houses of justice and there will eventually be no distinction
between church and state, with rather snide and smug comments about
how at last the world will finally get it right and have God and
Government fused through the power of the Baha'i covenant."
Thousands of pilgrims, not just one, have heard him say these things.
And not just him. David Hoffman has an audiocassette filled with such
ideas that you can order from the Baha'i publishing trust. It is all
al-Qaida ideals, from beginning to end.
Semple also had the Bahai World Centre secretariat write,
"As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March
1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the
relationship of the Baha'i institutions to those of the country in
which the Baha'is reside make it unthinkable that they would ever
purpose to violate a country's constitution or so to meddle in its
political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of
government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of
abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any
means imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means,
decide to adopt Baha'i laws and practices and modify its
constitution."
I commented,
> > In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> > elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.
Jihad Ricky, who admits he wants to repeal the first amendment to the
U.S. Constitution and overthrow the US government in the long run,
writes:
>The statement refers to standing Baha'i policies
> regarding political non-involvement, which Dr. Cole knows forbits Baha'is
> from running for office within a democratic system that's premised on
> getting elected through membership in political parties.
What the statement says is that when Baha'is get to be the majority,
so that they in a democratic framework represent "the country," then
they ("the country itself") may "decide to adopt" [i.e. impose on the
whole society] "Baha'i laws" [i.e. a far rightwing literalist
interpretation of the Baha'i shariah, similar to Islamic law] and
"modify" [i.e. repeal] "its constitution" [i.e. the U.S.
Constitution]. The whole passage is doublespeak for Khrushschev's "We
will bury you!" The only difference is that Semple thinks he can
accomplish the overthrow of the U.S. constitution and the institution
of a Baha'i theocracy by simply roping enough John Walker Lindhs into
his cult-like perversion of the Baha'i faith, so that ultimately they
can pull a Nazi-like maneuver and use their majority itself to destroy
democracy.
>Do
> Baha'is believe the Universal House of Justice will, some day, be the center
> piece of what is referred to as the World Order of Baha'u'llah? Yes.
In other words, Jihad Ricky is among the small group of Baha'i
cultists that wants to establish a global Baha'i theocracy, just as
Jihad Johnny Walker Lindh wants to establish an Islamic caliphate.
> However, at that point, any similarity between what Baha'is envision and any
> Al-Qaida dream for establishing a caliphate ends.
The more cult-like members of Baha'i institutions brook no dissent,
act in an authoritarian manner, impose censorship on all Baha'is,
routinely investigate people for thought crimes, summarily toss them
out of the community, spread nasty rumors about them, demonize them,
and deprive them of the most basic human rights. Sounds an awful lot
like al-Qaida's Caliph to me.
> Dr. Cole . . . clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of
> which many can be made, not the least of which is the complete absence of
> any use of force or of any effort to undermine existing governments in
> Baha'i activities.
The Nazis came to power peacefully, too. That the means are
nonviolent makes the Baha'i fundamentalists less dangerous in the
short run than the al-Qaida and Taliban, which they resemble so much.
But in the long run maybe it makes them more insidious. Anyway, I
don't much care how my Constitutional rights are destroyed, whether by
violence or peacefully. I care about the *outcome*. I don't intend
to allow them to be destroyed at all.
> > Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> > substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> > for civil government.
>
> Baha'i institutions are, indeed, freely elected.
No nominations, no campaigning are allowed. Speaking negatively of an
incumbent is considered "negative campaigning," for which Baha'is have
been punished. Even criticizing policies is disallowed. A small
group of like-minded people is reelected every year at the national
level, especially to offices like Secretary & Treasurer.
Well, you can run your religious elections however you like. But you
are not taking away the democracy we have and which the Master so
forcefully praised and replacing it by this weird cult-like
manipulation of community politics.
>Nor, for
> that matter, do Baha'is seek to substitute Baha'i institutions for civil
> institutions. Baha'is believe that, some day, when the majority of the
> population had become Baha'i, Baha'i institutions will form the pattern by
> which civil government is exercised. That, however, is very different from
> simply seeking to supplant civil government with Baha'i institutions.
Well, if the current more cult-like Baha'i governance procedures are
imposed by a tyranny of the majority on civil institutions as their
"pattern", then that would mean abolishing Congress, forbidding
political parties (=de facto a one-party state), imposing censorship
on the press, repealing the Constitution and the First Amendment. In
other words, Jihad Ricky is welcoming us to al-Qaida-Ville.
> > Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
> > recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> > world-view.
>
> A charge that's been repeated many times without substantive evidence to
> back it up. Yet, given the track record so far in this post, one has little
> faith in Dr. Cole's ability to produce any such evidence without twisting it
> to mean what he wants it to mean.
Jihad Ricky, of course, is one of the Cell Leaders. Somehow the Cell
Leaders are most vociferous in denying there are any Cells.
> > Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
> > tolerate no dissent.
>
> Actually, Baha'i institutions tolerate a great deal of "dissent" when it's
> voiced through proper channels.
No, they don't. But when the dissent is voiced, and punished
privately, then nobody on the outside can know about the repression.
Cultist Baha'i officials monitor community members, attempt to
intimidate them into silence, interfere behind the scenes in LSA
elections, and generally act in an authoritarian and corrupt way.
Then they smile and put on a 'nice' face for the public. Actually,
just listen carefully to Jihad Ricky and you'll see the real face of
Baha'i cultism and fundamentalism.
>It is a very different model of governance
> than that which is prevalent in common western democracies, and, of this,
> there can be little doubt.
In other words, what Jihad Ricky advocates is not democratic at all.
It is a form of fascist theocracy that deprives us of our God-given
democratic rights.
>Whether or not it can be accurately
> characterised as an outright "theocracy" would only depend on the extent to
> which one would highlight similarities while ingoring important differences.
That's easy for you to say. It isn't your ox that is being ingored.
Theocracy is the government of a society by the religious
institutions. That's what Jihad Ricky wants for our beautiful,
tolerant America, to make it like Iran and Taliban Afghanistan. Hint:
It is a Theocracy.
See above for what Shoghi Effendi really said.
cheers Juan
Dermod Ryder
eyes according to Doc Hasbeen.
Geez I wouldn't want to meet Juan Cole when he ain't self destructing!
That could be a nuuuuclear exxxxxplosion!
Doctor Electron
(Juan Cole) transmitted:
>The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
<etc, snip>
Sir, if you think a disciplinary committee at the U of M or a civil
court judge would give a rat's ass about what persons named Kazemzadeh
or Semple have done, said or theorized, or not, I suspect you are
sadly mistaken. Those entities will focus on what you did.
It is a almost beyond belief how anyone among your supporters could
have thought you had any defense. Now we see there is none.
I am saddened to see what can only be your pathetic last acts of
desperation. No one can enjoy the spectacle of your staggering and
collapsing in the trash on the sometimes filthy streets of
talk,religion.bahai. My heart-felt sorrow. I was hoping no one would
have to watch that here. There is no joy in talk.religion.bahai
tonight.
globalservices1_at_yahoo.com using @ instead of _at_.
===PEP [Pretty Excellent Privacy] encrypted message===
The bytes above contain both the key and the message.
Mark Elderkin
> Geez I wouldn't want to meet Juan Cole when he ain't self destructing!
> That could be a nuuuuclear exxxxxplosion!
I would rather think that it is more a case of letting the hot air out
without the fortitude of having to be correct........ an then...... just
well followed up by loyal sniffers who will do their best to juggle the
noxious air until the smell goes away.......
M
Dr. Herbert West
you're going on about? As I understand it, Dr. Cole made a post to the
talisman list that criticized the US NSA's reaction to the Sept. 11 murders.
Nima(Freethought) forwarded a copy of that post to TRB. Several people on
TRB asked to see a directive that Dr. Cole referenced in his post. Time went
by without this directive being produced. Nima was put on the spot and was
being cajoled to produce the directive, and he responded by saying that they
would have to ask Dr. Cole themselves. Dr. Cole himself did not respond. He
is not a regular contributor to this group, so this is understandable. Pat
Kohli persisted by making semi-regular posts addressed directly to Dr. Cole.
Pat is a regular. He knows that Dr. Cole rarely participates on this
newsgroup. I assume he expected that either Dr. Cole kept up with this group
(by lurking) or that one of the doctor's acquaintances would apprise him of
the situation. Pat's posts were inflammatory, accusing Dr. Cole of lying and
calling into question his reputation as a scholar. Now, Dr. Cole has
responded to Pat's tirade against him and to my mind has answered any
questions about the original talisman post satisfactorily. Somewhere toward
the end of this, your voice joined the fray. Your first memorable post was a
framework for a TRB FAQ. When you were told that the group had a formal
charter you were surprised. You were completely unaware of the process to
create a newsgroup on the Talk heiriarchy (and yet you claim to be a net
expert). Several people worked quite hard on making this newsgroup a reality
and several of your posts made a mockery of that hard work. Yes, we really
did vote. It's probably just as well that you weren't around back then. You
might have succumbed to the draw of the dark side and circumvented the
process by using your net genius in service of the evil AOers that opposed
this group's creation. Then you started carrying on about forgeries and
whatnot and now this. Really sir, you confuse me. Is it your nature to jump
into things headfirst without being the least bit informed?
John
Juan Cole
Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good. We can
easily trace your IP back to Haifa and see that you are actually Peter
Khan himself.
Peter, really, you have to get an excercise machine and work on that
enormous gut. It is hanging down over your belt now, and maybe you're
too old to hear the snickering but it is most embarrassing for the
Faith. Plus it is deadly for your heart.
Since you are an engineer, we're all expecting you to publish the
paper on how exactly you get your pants to stay up. You'd be
surprised how many bets are waged on whether they will stay up
throughout your long-winded harangues (yes, it is against the law of
the Aqdas to wager, but it is also against the law of the Aqdas to
read and quote the writings so much that you bore yourself and other
people).
I know the Iranians hate seeing pear-shaped (really, really
pear-shaped) middle aged men in shorts jogging around the shrines
there in Haifa. Well, I guess really any of us would rather be spared
that sight. But you could get yourself an excercise machine and some
Jennifer Lopez tapes for your walkman. Well, maybe not J-Lo. That
might be bad for your heart, too, and there was that unfortunate
business with the dance club and Puffy. Anyway some music with a good
fast beat to jog to. Given your ideology, which seems to tend toward
Fascism, maybe a Dance Remix of Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Of course, you could just lay off the Persian rice a bit, too.
Naw-Ruz is just around the corner, and it is time to make those New
Year's Resolutions.
By the way, a hint for you. Any man whose wife lets him let himself
go to that extent is probably looking for the insurance money. If she
keeps offering you huge pieces of cake and extra creamy ice cream, it
can't be good.
cheers Juan
Brian Walker
Juan Cole <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>
> Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good. We can
> easily trace your IP back to Haifa and see that you are actually Peter
> Khan himself.
That is the not the information I have seen on the headers. Also, you will
have compared the rhetorical style, language content and thought processes
in Docs writings. As flattered as he may be with the comparison, there is no
comparison. Or, put another way, Juan - your jump of logic does you no
credit. (But I would be interested to see the means whereby you came to the
conclusion. As in a maths test, seeing the workings can bring as much marks
as the correct answer)
> Peter, really, you have to get an excercise machine and work on that
> enormous gut. It is hanging down over your belt now, and maybe you're
> too old to hear the snickering but it is most embarrassing for the
> Faith. Plus it is deadly for your heart.
If we compare your writings with the call from Baha'u'llah, you will perhaps
note that the style of your address falls far below that required of a
spiritual person. Direct insults to the person. (Ad hominem? Michael, please
arise now)
Carry on Juan. The world needs to see just what kind of person you are.
Brian
Robert Little
Cole to substantiate his incredible claims of Baha'i plots and plans for the
overthrow of democratically elected (or otherwise) governments. He claims,
for example, that "Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian Semple,
Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the minbar of
hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul what is divinely
preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political power for the Baha'i
nothing more than more claims. Not one quotation from these individuals,
certainly not one single shred of evidence that would substantiate this sick
calumny.
Should anyone reading these words of Professor Cole wish to know the truth,
or wish to verify for him or herself whether or not Ian Semple or any of the
other named or unnamed individuals seeks to plot the overthrow of any
government or institution, I would suggest that they attempt to investigate
for themselves, through a perusal of the published letters and recorded
speeches given by them. Indeed, you may write directly to the Universal
House of Justice if you wish. Look hard, read and listen. There are numerous
Baha'i websites, some maintained by individuals, others by the Baha'i
institutions. Visit any one of them, ask the Baha'is in your community about
this. They'll be astonished, and they may laugh at you in disbelief, but
once you get past that, ask pointed questions of Baha'is, read the words of
Baha'ullah for yourself, and compare those words to the published letters
that have come out of the Baha'i world center in Haifa. You'll learn that
the model of Baha'i life is service to mankind, not ruler of mankind. 180
degrees.
This may well prove to be a defining moment for Professor Cole. It would be
appropriate to pray for him, for us all, that the truth be made known.
Robert A. Little
Robert Little
Do you remember this?
"It should also be borne in mind that the very extension of the activities
in which we are engaged, and the variety of the communities which labor
under divers forms of government, so essentially different in their
standards, policies, and methods, make it absolutely essential for all those
who are the declared members of any one of these communities to avoid any
action that might, by arousing the suspicion or exciting the antagonism of
any one government, involve their brethren in fresh persecutions or
complicate the nature of their task. How else, might I ask, could such a
far-flung Faith, which transcends political and social boundaries, which
includes within its pale so great a variety of races and nations, which will
have to rely increasingly, as it forges ahead, on the good-will and support
of the diversified and contending governments of the earth -- how else could
such a Faith succeed in preserving its unity, in safeguarding its interests,
and in ensuring the steady and peaceful development of its institutions?
Such an attitude, however, is not dictated by considerations of selfish
expediency, but is actuated, first and foremost, by the broad principle that
the followers of Baha'u'llah will, under no circumstances, suffer themselves
to be involved, whether as individuals or in their collective capacities, in
matters that would entail the slightest departure from the fundamental
verities and ideals of their Faith. Neither the charges which the uninformed
and the malicious may be led to bring against them, nor the allurements of
honors and rewards, will ever induce them to surrender their trust or to
deviate from their path. Let their words proclaim, and their conduct
testify, that they who follow Baha'u'llah, in whatever land they reside, are
actuated by no selfish ambition, that they neither thirst for power, nor
mind any wave of unpopularity, of distrust or criticism, which a strict
adherence to their standards might provoke. (21 March 1932 to the National
Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, published in "The World
Order of Baha'u'llah: Selected Letters, pp. 6467)
[Bahá'í Library CD-ROM: Compilations: Crisis and Victory, Page: 86]
Robert A. Little
"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
Juan Cole
I understand that there is a little shop there in Hong Kong right near
the port where you can buy a mysterious sauce that will give you A
SENSE OF HUMOR, since obviously you are suffering from some sort of
serious genetic deficit in that department. We are all praying it can
be repaired without surgery, and, indeed, that the condition is not
fatal.
cheers Juan
"Brian Walker" <hea...@vitalitycenter.com.hk> wrote in message news:<a42iep$qib$1...@hfc.pacific.net.hk>...
Paul Hammond
Robert Little <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WP598.10057$dx6.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> It is noticeable that there is not one single quotation offered by
Professor
> Cole to substantiate his incredible claims of Baha'i plots and plans for
the
> overthrow of democratically elected (or otherwise) governments. He claims,
> for example, that "Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian
Semple,
> Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the minbar of
> hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul what is divinely
> preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political power for the Baha'i
> religious institutions." This claim, like all the others, is backed up
with
> nothing more than more claims. Not one quotation from these individuals,
> certainly not one single shred of evidence that would substantiate this
sick
> calumny.
It's a bit of hyperbole, like what Baha'u'llah occassionally used to
used, when writing, say, to the "Son of the wolf".
The proof is in the rest of the post, not in this piece of poetic
imagery "mounting the minbar of hubris"? I don't think that
means we'll see Firuz Kazemzadeh actually climbing anything.
>
> Should anyone reading these words of Professor Cole wish to know the
truth,
> or wish to verify for him or herself whether or not Ian Semple or any of
the
> other named or unnamed individuals seeks to plot the overthrow of any
> government or institution, I would suggest that they attempt to
investigate
> for themselves, through a perusal of the published letters and recorded
> speeches given by them. Indeed, you may write directly to the Universal
> House of Justice if you wish. Look hard, read and listen. There are
numerous
> Baha'i websites, some maintained by individuals, others by the Baha'i
> institutions. Visit any one of them, ask the Baha'is in your community
about
> this. They'll be astonished, and they may laugh at you in disbelief, but
> once you get past that, ask pointed questions of Baha'is, read the words
of
> Baha'ullah for yourself, and compare those words to the published letters
> that have come out of the Baha'i world center in Haifa. You'll learn that
> the model of Baha'i life is service to mankind, not ruler of mankind. 180
> degrees.
>
All of these sound like good ideas - it would be very interesting for
a seeker to compare the actual words of Baha'u'llah with the
ideas around in contemporary Baha'i Society. Anyone who hangs
around in Baha'i circles for even a short while will soon hear the
populist Baha'i idea that the Baha'i Faith itself is eventually
destined to become the government of the world - Rick actually
just confirmed that this is true. It's not the *only* idea around
among Baha'is of what the Baha'i future holds, but it's certainly
one of the ideas.
Strip the hyperbole away, and that is what Juan says.
> This may well prove to be a defining moment for Professor Cole. It would
be
> appropriate to pray for him, for us all, that the truth be made known.
The truth of what? Juan seems to have a good, though hostile
handle on what the truth of the current Baha'i Faith is.
Paul
Paul Hammond
Brian Walker <hea...@vitalitycenter.com.hk> wrote in message
news:a42iep$qib$1...@hfc.pacific.net.hk...
You're quite correct, Brian - but it gave me a damn good laugh.
So - are we talking about the ad homs against Peter Khan here?
(I have no idea what he looks like, but I'm guessing from Juan's
comments that he might want to go on a diet), or the ad homs
against Dr Electron?
Personally, since Dr Electron seems to be running a campaign
to get Juan suspended from his job, what with all this stuff about
reporting him to the Faculty, and the ad-homs directed by
*Electron* against him, I reckon Electron's getting off lightly.
So, Dr Electron, is someone instructing you to attack Juan, or
are you just trolling from a private vendetta? What gives?
Paul
Juan Cole
in other countries or something.
It doesn't mean the Baha'is can't condemn the idiot Taliban, Ostrich
Robert. The Taliban would kill you if they could.
cheers Juan
"Robert Little" <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message news:<D%598.10076$dx6.1...@twister.socal.rr.com>...
Michael McKenny
Really? You could have fooled me. I thought this guy spoke in the
accents of Mark Foster. Of course, that's all ad hominem, and, uhm,
whatever Doc has been saying can logically be assessed on its own merit
independent of personality. I thought he wrote as one with a mission to
increase the noise ratio on the newsgroup, in the firm conviction that
such would be in the best interests of those who feel the heat of any
serious discussion here.
Inasmuch as it's a no-brainer when there's a focus on issues such as
the freedom of thought and expression, the independent investigation of
truth, justice being so important and looking with one's own eyes and
balancing faith with reason and the balanced wing of the equality of
women, etc. and no matter who they send out to argue the indefensible,
of course, fails miserably. It's not that they're aren't good players
on the fundamentalist team; it's that fundamentalism per se is a poor
thing to try to advance. The best quarterback there is can't throw a
successful long pass when it's molasses instead of a football in her/his
fingers.
To the Baha'i Faith operating with the principles Baha'u'llah provided.
To the Future,
Peace, Michael.
Dermod Ryder
Elderberry,
It's not often we have the pleasure(?) of your company.
> > Geez I wouldn't want to meet Juan Cole when he ain't self destructing!
> > That could be a nuuuuclear exxxxxplosion!
>
> I would rather think that it is more a case of letting the hot air out
> without the fortitude of having to be correct
Are you not thinking about the old grumpies here?
........ an then...... just
> well followed up by loyal sniffers who will do their best to juggle the
> noxious air until the smell goes away.......
Yes! I should have read on - you ARE talking about the grumpies.
After all they're the leaders of the only group around here that has
brown-nosed followers in total loyalty, obedience, unity, conformity
and .... all that jazz!
> M
mult...@aros.net
pops an electron out of nowhere? What if he isn't a he, but a she,
how much current does it take to run a DST?
Doctor Electron
<hoopt...@hotmail.com> transmitted:
>Could you please, in clear and concise language, explain to me what the heck
>you're going on about?
Start with the date of Pat Kohli's most recent repost of Dr. Cole's
treason letter, on or prior to Feb. 3. Select all posts from Doctor
Electron from there to the present. Read each one. There's plenty
"going on," but I trust you will see what's "going on" (Marvin Gaye
-sp?).
Overall characterization: a developing investigation. From here, in
the sad aftermath of the public self-mutilation we have just seen from
Dr. Cole, once we get our breathe back after such a pathetic show of
nastiness, many things are to come. E.g.,
1. Those interested in the controversial issues of the day and
concerning the Baha'i community, can get back to their debates and
studies free of any association with religious hate peddlers. There
are many reputable, honorable people who can now pursue their
investigation of truth without fear of being associated with malicious
religious fanatics.
2. Numerous questions remain on the Juan Cole case itself, since it
seems the preliminary investigation is about done. How did he and a
self-proclaimed "team" so apparently nefarious and disreputable that
the members names are reportedly secret, finance their activities?
Was there money from outside? etc. What makes this particular
element tick? The public surely has an continuing curiosity about
such bizarre and dark variations of human behavior. What hate bombs
are to come from Dr. Cole et al. and on and on? Is Dr. Cole like the
protagonist in some sort of freak Greek tragedy or a front for hate
groups rooted in other religions? You are right, sir, it is "going
on."
> As I understand it, Dr. Cole made a post to the....
>....
>.... Really sir, you confuse me. Is it your nature to jump
>into things headfirst without being the least bit informed?
Being confused may give rise to questions. You are then less likely
to say, "That's the end of it." The confusion (= lingering questions)
will motivate investigation. You can ask the questions. Go ahead and
research them. Email the data and join the effort to explore a truly
fascinating story in contemporary history!
Doctor Electron
(Juan Cole) transmitted:
>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
<insults, bad taste, conduct unbecoming of a faculty member snipped
here>
>cheers Juan
Hmmmm, insults, false information, then "cheers."
Notebook entry: What is the mental health history of Dr. Cole? How
is his family, if any, holding up? Will he offer up a "poor mental
health" defense at prospective U of M fact-finding committees, as he
seems to have done in previous forays into slander as reported
(correctly?) in the Fred G archives posted in TRB? Stay tuned!
Paul Hammond
Please substantiate your repeated assertions of "religious hate
crimes"
Doctor Electron <globals...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o4ib6u83ujtgu84fc...@4ax.com...
Mark Elderkin
> the port where you can buy a mysterious sauce that will give you A
> SENSE OF HUMOR, since obviously you are suffering from some sort of
> serious genetic deficit in that department. We are all praying it can
> be repaired without surgery, and, indeed, that the condition is not
> fatal.
Juan baby.......... keep up the good work............ the hole is deepening
and the light is shrinking. Now...... let's see...... what were you a doctor
of ????? Oh yea........ I remember now............ great thinking.........
no that's not it................ Cleverness....................... no-no-no,
that's not it. Oh yea I remember now............... foot surgery. When you
finally get yours out make sure you don't step in some the piles you've left
behind. Wait........ don't I hear Tal 9 calling you...........Juannnnnnnn
Juannnnnn. Bye.
Doctor Electron
(Juan Cole) transmitted:
>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>
>Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
Telecommunications lesson:
1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
Ergo,
1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
Pat Kohli
Doctor Electron wrote:
> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
> (Juan Cole) transmitted:
>
> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> >
> >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
Looking at your headers I can see you are not in Haifa!
>
>
> Telecommunications lesson:
> 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
This is true, but usually the News Group Message includes the originator
IP address. For example, person me posts through a news server in
Germany. Person me also connects at an ISP outside Germany. This
message might show an IP address of 208.10.126.87 which corresponds to
ameritel.net, in Southern Maryland, where I live. Someone else's IP
address might be 206.48.61.106 for Oak Hill Virginia. Peter Khan does
_not_ live in or near Oak Hill VA, but someone else does and that is why
someone who suggested that Peter Khan was contributing to this thread,
looks to be a bit off on this thread.
>
> Ergo,
> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
So much more than that. Someone had alleged (before you got here) that
they can identify the author of various writings. It now appears to be
a(nother) bit of hoootery. Though maybe others can do this, they
apparently can not.
Blessings!
- Pat
ko...@ameritel.net
Dermod Ryder
> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
> (Juan Cole) transmitted:
>
> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> >
> >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
>
> Telecommunications lesson:
> 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
>
> Ergo,
> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
I'm not feeling the best this morning - heavy night .. I lie ...
veeerrry heavy night. You know what lodge night is like (Well No! You
wouldn't but take my word for it!) - big sampling session - Scotch
versus Irish malt whiskies. It cost me a quid or two but it was worth
it (the Irish were definitely the best!) - sort of payment for favours
done ... if you know what I mean. You know the US is only now
wakening up to the terrorist threat whereas we have lived with it for
many years past; so now the US comes here looking for techniques of
dealing with the terrorists. And of course, favours done need favours
returned - things like access to computer files and time. Now, not
the kind of computer that sits on your desk - do the words "kray
(sp?)" or "spy one (?)" or "aegis(?)" mean anything or "two
generations beyond that" - I'm not a techie like you - indeed I'm less
interested in the technology than the results. But what they said to
me, to cut a long story short, (incidentally, not for this but for
something else you owe me a bottle of Bushmills Malt - not the white
label, not the black label (which is pretty good) but the green - I'm
telling you this because I know you don't indulge as a good BIGS) was,
if I remember, strip out the server IP, access his files (?), break
any encryption and you're back to the machine the message came from.
Apparently all it needs is the right software and enough time. Since
you're not in the military/security services it was dead easy - after
all the encryption methods released for public use are obsolete as far
as the military is concerned otherwise they would not have been
cleared for public use and, of course, they know how to break them ...
otherwise they wouldn't release them.
So given the means exist of running you down ... the only question
is - "can I access them?"
Well what can I say? If I'm bluffing you're safe but if I'm not .....
but did you seriously think that I wouldn't check you out after you
came to me with that deal a while back? Let's face it, you came to me
because I'm the best around here and the one you needed to achieve
your life's wish. Now I've kept my side of the bargain but you have
grossly underperformed which, quite frankly, pisses me off ... you
haven't done what you said you would. In fact you've made a total
mess of it and I warned what would happen if you did that!
Now if you look through the archives you'll find loads of stuff
between me and Ramblin' Mick about the length of time it took for the
NSA to respond to Deborah Buchorn's complaint against an assembly in
New Mexico. Poor old Ramblin' Rick (you know there's an Irish tune
dedicated to him - "Rick's Rambles"; it's not very good but, sure,
neither is he) got quite upset at the way I revealed it took two
years - really upset and even more upset that I had this
"confidential" information but absolutely upset that I suckered him
into making very silly statements about it. My problem with you is
that I have to find a way of divulging your real identity without
compromising the source of that information. Add to that, Doc, the
fact that I 'm quite sadistic in my own way - I really enjoy watching
piss artists like you and the rest of your ilk, squirm. That's why I
sent you that little Okha and a "floating chrysanthemum" - you'll have
to check your history books for that reference but, sorry, I don't
spoon feed anybody, not even you. You have to complete this deal on
your own otherwise .... !
Dermod Ryder
<mult...@aros.net> wrote in message
news:3c659b95....@news.aros.net...
None at all! It performs no service of any kind whatsoever to
mankind! It's a practical joke devised by some of the shrewdest guys
on earth and at that point any similarity between the original DST and
the poor imitation that used to appear on this place disappears
completely.
Now if you don't reply to this post the poor old DST won't get to see
it as I'm on her kill-file - snigger! snigger!
As ever,
Dermod.
Paul Hammond
> (Juan Cole) transmitted:
>
> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> >
> >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
>
> Telecommunications lesson:
> 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
>
3. Always read your headers, so that you know who you're
talking to.
> Ergo,
> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
>
3. Replying to you is a complete waste of time!
Tchuss, Peter.
Paul Hammond
Dermod Ryder <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a45j44$1bq82r$1...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Doctor Electron" <globals...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:tr1c6uo9agctpahq3...@4ax.com...
> > Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
> > (Juan Cole) transmitted:
> >
> > >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> > >
> > >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
> >
> > Telecommunications lesson:
> > 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> > 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> >
> > Ergo,
> > 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> > 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
>
> I'm not feeling the best this morning - heavy night .. I lie ...
> veeerrry heavy night. You know what lodge night is like (Well No! You
> wouldn't but take my word for it!) - big sampling session - Scotch
> versus Irish malt whiskies. It cost me a quid or two but it was worth
> it (the Irish were definitely the best!)
I like both sorts, but prefer the Irish - some years back a nice
person introduced me to Black Bush in a Dublin pub, and I've
never looked back.
(incidentally, not for this but for
> something else you owe me a bottle of Bushmills Malt - not the white
> label, not the black label (which is pretty good) but the green - I'm
> telling you this because I know you don't indulge as a good BIGS)
Mmm. If you get some, can I come over to Belfast and join
you in a glass or two? Why does he owe you one? (use private
email if you prefer) - I don't like your chances of him making
good on his debts - there may be honour among thieves, but I
don't see much coming from him - kick a man while he's down
seems to be Dr Electron's creed.
Paul
Doctor Electron
<kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> transmitted:
>Allahu Abha!
>
>Doctor Electron wrote:
>
>> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
>> (Juan Cole) transmitted:
>>
>> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>> >
>> >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
>
>Looking at your headers I can see you are not in Haifa!
>
>> Telecommunications lesson:
>> 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
>> 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
>
>This is true, but usually the News Group Message includes the originator
>IP address. For example, person me posts through a news server in
>Germany. Person me also connects at an ISP outside Germany. This
>message might show an IP address of 208.10.126.87 which corresponds to
>ameritel.net, in Southern Maryland, where I live. Someone else's IP
>address might be 206.48.61.106 for Oak Hill Virginia. Peter Khan does
>_not_ live in or near Oak Hill VA, but someone else does and that is why
>someone who suggested that Peter Khan was contributing to this thread,
>looks to be a bit off on this thread.
OK, you've seen my Internet Hacking 101 lesson. You are now moving
into the *second* semester of the course. What you say is not only
possible, Pat (maybe you teach such a course), but additionally a
"Peter Khan" (?) may have a shell account in VA and telnet in and post
in talk.religion.bahai using the client news reader program he put in
his directory on the computer in VA.. Thus, the posting IP can look
like its VA. All of this is tested *before* the real posts are made.
[That is, the poster does a test post in, say, alt.test, then
retrieves his/her post and examines its headers to see if his/her
"home" IP is displayed or not. The test is necessary because news
group posting programs can be changed at any time. Be good students
and go to whatis.com and look up, if necessary, "telnet," "shell
account," etc.]
>> Ergo,
>> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
>> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
But from posts like those from Dr. Cole and his proxies, one might
surmise that "stalking" of Doctor Electron is underway or maybe just
step one in the next series of religious hate crimes on their agenda,
since we now see, thanks to Dr. Cole himself, that faith hate,
unwarranted mud slinging (you complete the list), etc, is a continuing
"pattern of behavior" and not just a passing "mistake."
>So much more than that. Someone had alleged (before you got here) that
>they can identify the author of various writings. It now appears to be
>a(nother) bit of hoootery. Though maybe others can do this, they
>apparently can not.
Yes, Pat, in pre-Juan Cole case threads in this news group, people
were making accusations and I stated at that time (January?) that
analysis of internet message headers is only a *starting* point in an
investigation. To develop an investigation, one would have to go to
the owner/operator of the ISP or server and get the logs to determine
who is the real person behind particular posts. Problem is one would
have to convince the owner/operator that one has a valid reason to do
this -- violation of Terms of Use, a crime, a potential crime to come,
whatever. The bias of owner/operators of Internet facilities is to
protect the privacy of their users. So the argument better be
something that's both comprehensible (don't expect them to have time
and try and figure out what you are saying) and convincing. Of
course, there is always law enforcement agencies, who may start with
the "please cooperate with our investigation" approach, and if
necessary, come back with search warrants, the implementation of which
might actually shut down the internet facility for a time (they might
go with hard drives and such). So owners/proprietors of internet
servers tend to cooperate with law enforcement.
What do you think, Pat? Is it about time, in the religious hate crime
context of posts in talk.religion.bahai as well as the other ongoing
religious hate terrorist threats in the U.S., to REPORT TO THE FBI
this apparent and potential threat re stalking of which, now, it seems
that I, Doctor Electron, have become a victim? Better safe than
sorry, right?
BTW, does the Chairman of Dr. Cole's Department at the U of M know of
this dark side of his faculty member? I wonder. At least, I have not
seen any public apologies from the Chairman on behalf of U of M here
yet.
Doctor Electron
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Wash., D.C.
Baha'i World Centre, Haifa, Israel
Dear sirs:
I, Doctor Electron (an internet alias), a U.S. citizen, seem to be a
victim of stalking and explicit and veiled threats by the author
quoted below, among others, in relation to apparent religious hate
crime activities of a one Dr. Juan Cole, a faculty at the University
of Michigan.
Recent posts by myself and others in talk.religion.bahai might begin
to provide relevant background information.
This is a formal request that these activities be thoroughly
investigated for the protection of the public. I may be contacted
through the email address of this message. In light of this and other
posts by this self-proclaimed "team at work," the descriptor
"religious hate crime" may have to be updated to "religious hate
terrorism."
I respectfully request a reply. You will find that I am a reputable,
credible individual.
Meanwhile, it may be noteworthy to keep in mind, regarding this "team
at work" which may include Dr. Cole and many others,
1. These persons seem to have already established a pattern of
behavior.
2. It is not known, at least to me, what domestic U.S. or
international hate and/or terrorist groups may be connected with this
"team," which even a passing glance reveals may have members in
various countries.
3. It is suggested by their posts, stalking and threats that people of
dubious mental health credentials may be involved.
4. The aggressive behavior of these persons has increased in direct
proportion to questions that I have raised about their activities in
talk.relgion.baha'i in the last weeks.
Sincerely, Doctor Electron
====BEGIN QUOTED POST====
Path:
news.interpacket.net!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!213.1.113.27!not-for-mail
From: "Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: Kazemzadeh, Semple and al-Qaida
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:46:57 -0000
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <a45j44$1bq82r$1...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de>
References: <619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com>
<ko796u0ek82lu598b...@4ax.com>
<619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com>
<tr1c6uo9agctpahq3...@4ax.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.1.113.27
X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1013338053 45949019 213.1.113.27 (16 [84503])
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Xref: news.interpacket.net talk.religion.bahai:28520
===END OF QUOTATION===
Paul Hammond
Doctor Electron <globals...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:53cd6u4egs0elcdfg...@4ax.com...
> To:
> Federal Bureau of Investigation, Wash., D.C.
> Baha'i World Centre, Haifa, Israel
>
> Dear sirs:
>
> I, Doctor Electron (an internet alias), a U.S. citizen, seem to be a
> victim of stalking and explicit and veiled threats by the author
> quoted below, among others, in relation to apparent religious hate
> crime activities of a one Dr. Juan Cole, a faculty at the University
> of Michigan.
>
You are the only person to think sending a few emails saying
that some high muckety-mucks in the Baha'i Faith are a
bunch of idiots constitutes a "hate crime" - unlike you, the
FBI actually *knows* the law.
The author you quote below is Dermod Ryder aka Grim Reaper,
a citizen of Belfast. Do you think the FBI has juristriction there?
I suggest you might want to take your complaint to Scotland Yard,
the headquarters of the British police, whose juristiction it actually
is.
On second thoughts, you might want to consider the charge
of "wasting police time".
btw - have you actually sent this, or is it just more "Comic Book
Guy" fantasy?
> Recent posts by myself and others in talk.religion.bahai might begin
> to provide relevant background information.
>
> This is a formal request that these activities be thoroughly
> investigated for the protection of the public. I may be contacted
> through the email address of this message. In light of this and other
> posts by this self-proclaimed "team at work," the descriptor
> "religious hate crime" may have to be updated to "religious hate
> terrorism."
>
Bwahahaha!
> I respectfully request a reply. You will find that I am a reputable,
> credible individual.
>
Bwahahahaha!
> Meanwhile, it may be noteworthy to keep in mind, regarding this "team
> at work" which may include Dr. Cole and many others,
>
> 1. These persons seem to have already established a pattern of
> behavior.
>
Say, what? You mean, when we see you being a prat, we *call*
you a prat? Damn straight, and I'm proud of it!
> 2. It is not known, at least to me, what domestic U.S. or
> international hate and/or terrorist groups may be connected with this
> "team," which even a passing glance reveals may have members in
> various countries.
>
Ireland, England - yes, yes.
Are you going to sue me for calling you a stupid bastard?
You might want Cambridgeshire constabulary for that - that is
the county I live in - might be more appropriate than New
Scotland Yard, I dunno - I've never been sued for slander
before.
> 3. It is suggested by their posts, stalking and threats that people of
> dubious mental health credentials may be involved.
>
Bwahahaha! Project much, Doc?
> 4. The aggressive behavior of these persons has increased in direct
> proportion to questions that I have raised about their activities in
> talk.relgion.baha'i in the last weeks.
>
Aggressive? What about your threats to Doctor Cole?
<snipped sig and repost of *real* wit>
Paul
Paul Hammond
You talk to us like we are stupid, and yet *you* are the person
who cannot even read attributions that appear on screen in front
of his face - a mistake you have made *twice* since you've
been here. "Look up the word 'telnet'", jeez!
I bet if I looked up the word "idiot" I'd soon know who Doctor
Electron was, for there would be a picture of him *right* there!
> >> Ergo,
> >> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> >> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.
>
> But from posts like those from Dr. Cole and his proxies,
Who is a proxy of Dr Cole here? What makes you say so?
Substantiate, idiot.
one might
> surmise that "stalking" of Doctor Electron is underway
Dear Dr Electron - who exactly was it that made you post here?
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen - it's not our
fault if you are not willing to be questioned on your assertions
that someone is committing "hate crimes".
or maybe just
> step one in the next series of religious hate crimes on their agenda,
Sorry? Calling a prat a prat is just like calling a spade a spade -
how is it a "hate crime" when I call you a prat, huh?
> since we now see, thanks to Dr. Cole himself, that faith hate,
> unwarranted mud slinging (you complete the list), etc, is a continuing
> "pattern of behavior" and not just a passing "mistake."
>
"Unwarrented mud slinging" like saying "Dr Cole is doing something
that's worse than painting a swastika on a synagogue"? Oops,
sorry, that was you doing that, wasn't it? Guess, you'd better just
go turn yourself in to Agent Scully, huh?
>So the argument better be
> something that's both comprehensible (don't expect them to have time
> and try and figure out what you are saying) and convincing.
So, I guess this is your own argument against your post addressed
to the FBI and the fools on the hill, huh?
Of
> course, there is always law enforcement agencies, who may start with
> the "please cooperate with our investigation" approach, and if
> necessary, come back with search warrants, the implementation of which
> might actually shut down the internet facility for a time (they might
> go with hard drives and such).
Or, if they receive a vexatious complaint like the one you drafted
and posted here, they might just charge the complainant with
wasting police time, don't you think?
So owners/proprietors of internet
> servers tend to cooperate with law enforcement.
>
> What do you think, Pat? Is it about time, in the religious hate crime
> context of posts in talk.religion.bahai as well as the other ongoing
> religious hate terrorist threats in the U.S., to REPORT TO THE FBI
> this apparent and potential threat re stalking of which, now, it seems
> that I, Doctor Electron, have become a victim? Better safe than
> sorry, right?
>
Who's stalking you, paranoia boy? You post smears to a public
newsgroup, and then you complain when you receive replies to
your posts? Now it's a crime according to you to reply to your
posts. What a laugh!
> BTW, does the Chairman of Dr. Cole's Department at the U of M know of
> this dark side of his faculty member? I wonder. At least, I have not
> seen any public apologies from the Chairman on behalf of U of M here
> yet.
>
Have you reported him yet? Oh, I forgot, you never attacked Juan
yet, did you?
Just so's you know, yes, I *am* attacking you.
I'm libelling you as well, but then I think I've got a pretty good
case to prove that you *are* in fact an idiot.
Paul
Dermod Ryder
This is great Doc! Now everybody else thought you were stupid but I
said that you weren't and I was wrong!
Strange as it may seem to you the FBI has no jurisdiction where I
reside, where the alleged criminal act took place. Your complaint
will therefore be fed by it to the local police who will have to
supply me and my legal advisers with a copy of your sworn statement
and, sorry, but the local police do not accept internet aliases as a
basis for any complaint. They will require your true name otherwise
they cannot proceed; by and large the local police are a fine bunch of
lads and will be highly amused at your own inability to maintain your
so-called anonymity. We all appreciate a joke here - this will go
down well at the annual Christmas party; it might even feature in the
cabaret.
Do impress on your local FBI the need to expedite this enquiry in
light of the dangers posed to the old grumpies in Haifa. (I'm c.c.ing
this to them BTW - on second thoughts I won't bother; they're all in
my fan club already and really look forward avidly to reading my
posts - don't like to boast but I hear there's a guy at Haifa tasked
with circulating them around the typing pool - Peter insists that's
how his secretary learned all of that bad language); I'll contact the
local police tomorrow and advise them your statement is on its way.
Once they receive it, I, of course, shall be able to announce and
confirm, in one stroke, your real identity. Even better - you'll
have to come here to give evidence at the trial so I'll be able to
show you the sights, introduce you to the Kneebreakers Free Reformed
Temperance Lodge (cheapest and best beer in town) etc.
The FBI has no jurisdiction here and the Bahai World Centre has even
less. BTW did you know that one of them is going to descend onto the
territory of the Reaper soon. I intend to unstintingly proffer my
fullest support into giving him a warm Irish welcome that he won't
forget ..... ever!
Ah Doc! I fear this time you have been too smucking fart fy bar!
Dermod Ryder
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:3c66...@212.67.96.135...
> Running scared Doc?
No - just stupid!
Dermod Ryder
"Michael McKenny" <bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:a44022$pit$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Hi Michael,
I can confirm that Doc Electron is not Peter Khan - Genghis poses as
an Australian whilst the Doc is indisputably an American - and that's
the only material difference; well, that plus the fact that the Doc is
a lot thinner, younger and has not yet attained to the heights of
success he thinks are rightfully his. I do not want to confirm Doc's
true identity in public now - he thinks I don't know it, that his
security precautions cannot be broken. So we'll leave him in his
delusions - until the time that disclosure and confirmation can
achieve a much more dramatic effect - sometime like when it can
terminate his aspirations - painfully, of course.
Oh! I just loved that "molasses" metaphor - that wonderful picture of
Ramblin' Rick, the DST and the Doc sallying forth, with Coach Bob's
good wishes still ringing in their ears, to do battle with the bad
guys on TRB - armed with a jar of molasses which slowly starts to ooze
all over them, the minute they open their mouths. Wonderful stuff,
Michael - keep it coming!
As ever,
Dermod.
Susan Maneck
>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
ROFL. Oh my. And Nima was accusing Dr. Electron of paranoid delusions.
Anyone who knows Peter Khan knows he doesn't write like that!
Hey but this is the guy who thought Peter Khan's family was evangelical
Christian.
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
"And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time
left to start again . . "
Don McLean's American Pie
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Doctor Electron
Maneck ) transmitted:
>>
>>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>
>ROFL. Oh my. And Nima was accusing Dr. Electron of paranoid delusions.
>
>Anyone who knows Peter Khan knows he doesn't write like that!
>
>Hey but this is the guy who thought Peter Khan's family was evangelical
>Christian.
>Susan Maneck
>Associate Professor of History
>Jackson State University
Reporter's notebook: Does anyone know of a case where a Professor of
History (Juan Cole) and his apparent sidekicks have engaged in
stalking and threatening the wrong person, vis a vis the object of
their malicious intents? The Juan Cole faith hate story just keeps
getting better every day.
Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020211015912...@mb-mj.aol.com...
> >
> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>
> ROFL. Oh my. And Nima was accusing Dr. Electron of paranoid
delusions.
Even Nima makes mistakes! He once told me you were quite intelligent!
> Anyone who knows Peter Khan knows he doesn't write like that!
>
> Hey but this is the guy who thought Peter Khan's family was
evangelical
> Christian.
Some people think you wouldn't spy on private groups and/or quote
private correspondence to all and sundry, never mind the grumpies!
--
Dermod Ryder
Deputy Assistant Grand Master,
The Honourable August, Ancient and Noble Craft Lodge of Diabologics
"Mony a one for him makes mane,
But nane sall ken where he is gane;
O'er his white banes, when they are bare,
The wind shall blaw for evermair"
(Trad. - cited in F. J. Child - "The English and Scottish Popular
Ballads")
PS. Am I still on your kill-file? Heh! Heh! Heh!
Doctor Electron
(Juan Cole) transmitted:
>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>
Reporter's follow up: My post regarding stalking and threats was sent
to the FBI and the BWC with my signature identity. Since both of
these organizations know my identity and that far pre-dating any post
by myself in talk.religion.bahai, your secret "team at work," some
members of which "worship" you, can send an email:
TO: postm...@fbi.gov
Subject: Please forward to Doctor Electron
Message: I would like to meet personally with you or whatever your
message or query is.
Hope this helps,
Michael McKenny
Welcome you are. I notice a lot of molasses being tossed about this
morning. Yum.
Thrive, Michael.
Paul Hammond
>
> ROFL. Oh my. And Nima was accusing Dr. Electron of paranoid delusions.
>
> Anyone who knows Peter Khan knows he doesn't write like that!
>
So, you believe Juan was *seriously* suggesting that Doc was
PK?
I know *I* didn't, but I still got that ROFL response.
Paul
Karen Bacquet
No, certainly not. Juan's tongue was firmly in his cheek in that post, and
in fact, he recommended that another poster here, who took also took it at
face value, get a sense of humor. Nobody with their wits about them would
take that post seriously.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Web Mime
>in fact, he recommended that another poster here, who took also took it at
>face value, get a sense of humor. Nobody with their wits about them would
>take that post seriously.
>
>Love, Karen
>http://www.bacquet.tk
So that was just the normal let's attack a member of the House of Justice for
the fun of it type of posting. Gosh folks here a so much fun!
Doctor Electron
Mime) transmitted:
>So that was just the normal let's attack a member of the House of Justice for
>the fun of it type of posting. Gosh folks here a so much fun!
Hmmmm, before long no person, regardless of gender, would want to
serve on that institution. Who needs the personal attacks?
Dave Fiorito
> The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> separation of religion and state. The need for religious leaders to
> let politicians do the ruling is a key value stated over and over
> again in Baha'i scripture.
Agreed.
> Unfortunately, a weird Baha'i sub-cult has arisen. It structurally
> resembles al-Qaida, and differs from al-Qaida only with regard to
> methods, not ideals.
Uh. No. Al-Qaida has no ideals. Islam is simply a means to an end
for Osama bn Laden. Any comparison between Al-Qaida and the Baha'i
Faith is simply inflamatory and invalid.
> It does not usually employ violence or terrorism
> (though persons with this mindset have beaten up friends of mind).
Dude, "your friend" pissed someone off and they smacked him. This has
nothing to do with the issue.
> And, most frighteningly of all, it has taken over and subverted the
> main institutions of the Baha'i faith.
Uh, no it has not. Show me the decisions of the UHJ that lead you to
that conculsion.
> 1)
>
> Al-Qaida believes in the destruction of secular, civil governments and
> replacing them with a fascist theocracy.
>
> Baha'i theocrats believe in the destruction of secular, civil
> governments and replacing them with a fascist theocracy.
Again - not true. The vision expressed by individuals such as Ian
Semple do not include destruction or replacement. Their conceptual
model (which is simply opinion) states that Government will evolve
into a system based on Baha'i principles. He talks about evolution,
not revolution.
> Ian Semple, a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for
> decades cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
> when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.
... and he is entitled to his opinion. You know Juan, you seem to
value diversity of thought up to the point that you disagree with the
stated point of view at which point you show no tollerance for it.
> One pilgrim wrote,
>
> "I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long
> talks about this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be
> ruled by houses of justice and there will eventually be no distinction
> between church and state, with rather snide and smug comments about
> how at last the world will finally get it right and have God and
> Government fused through the power of the Baha'i covenant."
Yes, this is a pilgrim note from a man who holds no authority in the
Baha'i Faith. This is his opinion. As an opinion it is as valid and
binding as yours.
> Note that this is the opposite of what `Abdu'l-Baha says in the
> Treatise on Leadership:
>
> http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/trans/vol2/absiyasi.htm
> Semple also put out a letter from the Secretariat of the UHJ:
>
> "As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March
> 1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the
> relationship of the Baha'i institutions to those of the country in
> which the Baha'is reside make it unthinkable that they would ever
> purpose to violate a country's constitution or so to meddle in its
> political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of
> government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of
> abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any
> means imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means,
> decide to adopt Baha'i laws and practices and modify its constitution
> or method of government accordingly."
If this is from the UHJ then it is not from Ian Semple. Letters from
the UHJ come from the body itself and not individual members. Of
course you know this already.
> In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.
Puh-leez. Your statement is a simple inflamitory meant to evoke a
base reaction. Nazis bad, democracy good therefore Baha'is bad cause
Juan Cole said so.
Furthermore you missed the point. If the US ammends the constitution
with a law based on a Baha'i principle how would that not be
democratic - and what the heck does this have to do with al-Qaida?
They would not have the patience to wait for thier ideology to be
voted in. They just want to take control now - no votes and no
debate. Your comparision is looking weaker and weaker.
> By the way, the Islamists (with al-Qaida links) tried this in Algeria, and the
> democrats and secularists fought back, embroiling the country in a
> civil war that has cost 100,000 lives. This is the sort of conflict
> between theocratic Baha'is and the rest of society that Semple is
> urging on the world. At that point would the Baha'i theocrats refrain
> from violence?
Pure speculation and more rhetorical parlor tricks. This is not the
kind of change mentioned in the letter from the UHJ quoted above. The
whole "violence" reference is nearly comedic.
> 2) Al-Qaida wishes to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate as the One
> World Government.
>
> Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
> envision it ruling the world.
Uh. No again. At least not in any authoritaive way. Some individuals
may hold that point-of-view but it is equally as valid as your own -
you know, diversity of thought and all that.
> 3) Al-Qaida despises parliamentary democracy as corrupt, money-driven
> and unrepresentative. It wishes to overthrow parliaments and
> institute authoritarian religious rule instead.
>
> Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> for civil government.
Give me a break Juan. This is moving into the world of fantasy now.
Baha'i governing bodies are freely elected. Just becuase the people
you want to elect don't get elected is no reason to cry foul.
> Long-time Baha'i leader Firuz Kazemzadeh said in 1988:
>
> "If somebody is dissatisfied with a local assembly, he is not
> prevented from appealing to the NSA . . . It is something else when
> whispering campaigns or petitions are sent around for signatures
> objecting to the activities of the institutions. That also may be
> something which is countenanced by American democracy but has nothing
> to do with the Baha'i Faith. We must always remember that our
> institutions are an unusual and unique combination of theocracy in the
> best sense of the term with democracy. The institutions of the
> Baha'i Faith have not been created by us, the institutions have
> been created by God."
>
> Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
> created by Kazemzadeh.
Again - this is the opinion of an individual Baha'i. It is not
authoritaive or official.
> 4) Al-Qaida establishes cells throughout the world to work for
> theocracy, and recruits innocent Muslims at mosques.
>
> Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
> recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> world-view. Many "Auxiliary Board Members" and Assistants are secret
> theocrats who play dirty tricks on ordinary Baha'is to force them out
> of the Faith.
Ok. Now you just sound crazy. Secret handshakes, the pig flies at
midnight, black UN helicopters, Elvis lives! Give it a rest. This is
pure fantasy and unless you have some proof (just like that mysterious
ban on the Prayer for America) I suggest that you back off the cloak
and dagger conspiracy crap.
> The Ian Semple/Kazemzadeh theocratic ideology aims at destroying
> American democracy. It aims at gutting the Constitution and
> abolishing Congress in favor of Kazemzadeh's weird, secretive,
> authoritarian way of ruling.
Dude - this from a respected academic. Your cred is seriously
slipping.
> 5) Al-Qaida demands absolute obedience from its recruits, and no
> dissent is permitted.
>
> Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
> tolerate no dissent. Kazemzadeh told a group of Baha'i intellectuals,
>
> "the word dissent implies separating oneself from the activities of
> the group and putting oneself outside the mainstream of the community,
> and that is contrary to Baha'i practice."
Again this is his opinion. He is an individual Baha'i whose opinion
is as valid as any other individual Baha'i.
> You can't disagree with the NSA.
Sure you can. That is the very essence of appeal to the UHJ. Juan,
if you are going to be inflamitory at least get your facts straight.
Oh, sorry, I forgot that phantom comunique. Maybe you don't need to
get facts straight to spew like this.
> The dangers to the pristine Baha'i faith, with its values of
> tolerance, allowing the expression of diverse points of view, and firm
> commitment to the separation of religion and state, of this theocratic
> cult that has taken control of the community cannot be overstated.
> Moreover, it is a threat to the whole world.
Did you hear about the secret mind control devices implanted in prayer
books?
> Now that we have seen where such authoritarian theocracy leads, on
> September 11, I call upon all Baha'is to step back, reread the
> scriptures, and adhere to the real values of our religion.
Juan , I have done just that, which is why I completely reject your
vile attempts to mislead through inflamitory rhetoric and insinuation.
Cheers,
Dave
Paul Hammond
> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, sma...@aol.com (Susan
> Maneck ) transmitted:
>
> >>
> >>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> >
> >ROFL. Oh my. And Nima was accusing Dr. Electron of paranoid delusions.
> >
> >Anyone who knows Peter Khan knows he doesn't write like that!
> >
> >Hey but this is the guy who thought Peter Khan's family was evangelical
> >Christian.
> >Susan Maneck
> >Associate Professor of History
> >Jackson State University
>
> Reporter's notebook: Does anyone know of a case where a Professor of
> History (Juan Cole) and his apparent sidekicks have engaged in
> stalking and threatening the wrong person, vis a vis the object of
> their malicious intents? The Juan Cole faith hate story just keeps
> getting better every day.
Hasn't that reporter missed his notebook yet? You'd better get it
back to her before she does, mate!
Who are you calling a sidekick? I'm a frontkick, thank you very
much! No-one pulls my strings. Who pulls yours?
Paul
Susan Maneck
>
>So, you believe Juan was *seriously* suggesting that Doc was
>PK?
>
Paul, Juan makes so many outrageous and unfounded statements, it is difficult
to know when he is serious anymore. Do you remember the time he accused Kathy
of being an AO spy? And he was very serious then.
warmest,
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
"And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time
Dermod Ryder
> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, web...@aol.com (Web
> Mime) transmitted:
>
> >So that was just the normal let's attack a member of the House of
Justice for
> >the fun of it type of posting. Gosh folks here a so much fun!
>
> Hmmmm, before long no person, regardless of gender, would want to
> serve on that institution. Who needs the personal attacks?
Members of Talisman, the editorial staff of Dialogue, the writers of A
Modest Proposal, Freethought, all persons deemed guilty of "covenantly
challenging" behaviour and anybody who criticises the Grumpies.
Dermod Ryder
"Web Mime" <web...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020211130620...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Yes! Glad you noticed! Feel free to join in the fun - TRB is the
place to be! And there are no sacred cows around here - an odd
(very!) Diagonal Steam Trap, a peculiar Doc with fixations about the
FBI and an very misinformed opinion that the writ of that august body
holds in regions external to the US, Ramblin' Rick, Rovin' Robert,
Miss Maddy, Dotty Dave, Freedom Fred, Dreadful Dermod, Punctilious
Pat, Brainy Brian, Footloose (but not for much longer) Freethought,
Kute Karen, Patient Paul, Magical
Michael, a host of extras and, of course, leaving the best to last,
your very own Grim Reaper!
Tongue now out of cheek!
Dermod.
mult...@aros.net
Then assuredly I must post though I fear I am propbably on the same
kill file she reads everyday as you are.
mult...@aros.net
Might I suggest he also include from Fred's list a certain elden and
night shadow who seem to think what they are doing is fine. Or do he
believe he has to be an accessory to their views?
Susan Maneck
>>> Federal Bureau of Investigation, Wash., D.C.
>>> Baha'i World Centre, Haifa, Israel
>>>
>>> Dear sirs:
>>>
>>> I, Doctor Electron (an internet alias), a U.S. citizen, seem to be a
>>> victim of stalking and explicit and veiled threats by the author
>>> quoted below, among others, in relation to apparent religious hate
>>> crime activities of a one Dr. Juan Cole, a faculty at the University
>>> of Michigan.
Doc,
Tell me you didn't really send this?
Robert Little
At our last collective Feast (where the entire community comes together), we
heard a series of youth and young Baha'is speak about their various service
activities in senior citizen homes, hospitals and the like. We heard reports
on the attached Multicultural Organization for Neighborhood Arts (MONA), a
non-profit program that assists neighborhood children in a variety of ways,
including after-school tutoring.We heard reports on the Valley Community
Center, which has been offering space to various groups for a variety of
artistic, cultural and religious purposes. I would have been happy to offer
a detailed report on the Baha'i office on the campus of California State
University, Northridge, but there was not enough time.
We heard a great deal about a Baha'i Faith which strives to become like unto
our Exemplar, who chose for Himself the name "Abdu'l-Baha'", and so when I
compare the reality of my life as a Baha'i, the life of my sons and their
devotion to the teachings and ideals of Baha'u'llah, the life of my Baha'i
friends, many of whom I have known for years and decades, and the life of
the members of the Spiritual Assembly who we have elected from amongst
ourselves, when I compare all this to the ferocious words of Mr. Cole, I am
sickened. Sickened at the ugliness that he is not revealing, but rather
creating, shocked at the state of his own heart, saddened that a man who
formerly loved is now filled with hate.
In its own way, this attack may be likened (although not comparable,
certainly) to the attack on civilization that the world witnessed and
suffered through last September 11. This attack upon civility and courtesy,
respect, humility and love may well reverberate outward, causing unintended
consequences to us all.
There is no retreating from these words, these actions. Their "vibrating
influence" is spreading outward as you sit at your computers, reading my
poor words.
Robert A. Little
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:3c65...@212.67.96.135...
>
> Robert Little <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:WP598.10057$dx6.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > It is noticeable that there is not one single quotation offered by
> Professor
> > Cole to substantiate his incredible claims of Baha'i plots and plans for
> the
> > overthrow of democratically elected (or otherwise) governments. He
claims,
> > for example, that "Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian
> Semple,
> > Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the minbar
of
> > hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul what is
divinely
> > preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political power for the
Baha'i
> > religious institutions." This claim, like all the others, is backed up
> with
> > nothing more than more claims. Not one quotation from these individuals,
> > certainly not one single shred of evidence that would substantiate this
> sick
> > calumny.
>
> It's a bit of hyperbole, like what Baha'u'llah occassionally used to
> used, when writing, say, to the "Son of the wolf".
>
> The proof is in the rest of the post, not in this piece of poetic
> imagery "mounting the minbar of hubris"? I don't think that
> means we'll see Firuz Kazemzadeh actually climbing anything.
>
> >
> > Should anyone reading these words of Professor Cole wish to know the
> truth,
> > or wish to verify for him or herself whether or not Ian Semple or any of
> the
> > other named or unnamed individuals seeks to plot the overthrow of any
> > government or institution, I would suggest that they attempt to
> investigate
> > for themselves, through a perusal of the published letters and recorded
> > speeches given by them. Indeed, you may write directly to the Universal
> > House of Justice if you wish. Look hard, read and listen. There are
> numerous
> > Baha'i websites, some maintained by individuals, others by the Baha'i
> > institutions. Visit any one of them, ask the Baha'is in your community
> about
> > this. They'll be astonished, and they may laugh at you in disbelief, but
> > once you get past that, ask pointed questions of Baha'is, read the words
> of
> > Baha'ullah for yourself, and compare those words to the published
letters
> > that have come out of the Baha'i world center in Haifa. You'll learn
that
> > the model of Baha'i life is service to mankind, not ruler of mankind.
180
> > degrees.
> >
>
> All of these sound like good ideas - it would be very interesting for
> a seeker to compare the actual words of Baha'u'llah with the
> ideas around in contemporary Baha'i Society. Anyone who hangs
> around in Baha'i circles for even a short while will soon hear the
> populist Baha'i idea that the Baha'i Faith itself is eventually
> destined to become the government of the world - Rick actually
> just confirmed that this is true. It's not the *only* idea around
> among Baha'is of what the Baha'i future holds, but it's certainly
> one of the ideas.
>
> Strip the hyperbole away, and that is what Juan says.
>
> > This may well prove to be a defining moment for Professor Cole. It would
> be
> > appropriate to pray for him, for us all, that the truth be made known.
>
> The truth of what? Juan seems to have a good, though hostile
> handle on what the truth of the current Baha'i Faith is.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Robert Little
One of the key phrases in that citations: "...is actuated, first and
foremost, by the broad principle that
the followers of Baha'u'llah will, under no circumstances, suffer themselves
to be involved, whether as individuals or in their collective capacities, in
matters that would entail the slightest departure from the fundamental
verities and ideals of their Faith."
What you are suggesting (Baha'is attack in one or more ways the Taliban)
would not affect the Taliban terribly much, but would certainly have
consequences for the approximately one million Baha'is who live in
predominantly Muslim lands.
In fact, it may well be that your very own words will spill over into blood,
the blood of someone you have never met, but who you formerly called
"friend." It may come to pass that somewhere there are men sitting around a
table, salivating at the opportunity for mischief your diatribes have
presented them.
A very close Baha'i friend, a recent emigre from Egypt, has family and
friends in her land of birth. Her brother became a Baha'i after being thrown
into jail for belonging to a notorious Baha'i family. There are currently
numerous Baha'is in prison in that country, guilty of the horrid crime of
loving Baha'u'llah. Your vicious attack upon people you know and don't know
may not cause you any particular pain or discomfort, but the same may not be
said for others.
Mr. Cole, you have an opportunity to apologize to those you have wronged, to
ask for prayers, to offer prayers. I urge you to take it.
Robert A. Little
"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shoghi Effendi didn't want Baha'is fomenting coups
> in other countries or something.
>
> It doesn't mean the Baha'is can't condemn the idiot Taliban, Ostrich
> Robert. The Taliban would kill you if they could.
>
> cheers Juan
>
> "Robert Little" <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<D%598.10076$dx6.1...@twister.socal.rr.com>...
> > Professor Cole
> >
> > Do you remember this?
> >
> > "It should also be borne in mind that the very extension of the
activities
> > in which we are engaged, and the variety of the communities which labor
> > under divers forms of government, so essentially different in their
> > standards, policies, and methods,
Dermod Ryder
> >>> To:
> >>> Federal Bureau of Investigation, Wash., D.C.
> >>> Baha'i World Centre, Haifa, Israel
> >>>
> >>> Dear sirs:
> >>>
> >>> I, Doctor Electron (an internet alias), a U.S. citizen, seem to
be a
> >>> victim of stalking and explicit and veiled threats by the author
> >>> quoted below, among others, in relation to apparent religious
hate
> >>> crime activities of a one Dr. Juan Cole, a faculty at the
University
> >>> of Michigan.
>
> Doc,
>
> Tell me you didn't really send this?
Doc,
Do tell her you did - for my sake if for none other! I'm looking
forward so much to seeing you over here in Court.
Dermod Ryder
Hi Robert,
<SNIP>
> There is no retreating from these words, these actions. Their
"vibrating
> influence" is spreading outward as you sit at your computers,
reading my
> poor words.
Any declarations to report. Bums on seats - money in the envelopes
would go a long way to solving problems!
As ever,
Dermod.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >
> >So, you believe Juan was *seriously* suggesting that Doc was
> >PK?
> >
>
> Paul, Juan makes so many outrageous and unfounded statements, it is
difficult
> to know when he is serious anymore. Do you remember the time he
accused Kathy
> of being an AO spy? And he was very serious then.
Do you remember the time you accused some of us of evil machinations
in encouraging somebody to be declared a CB, promised the proof, then
reneged, kill-filed Michael and me and then demonstrated how you were
still reading my posts? And I am very serious now!
BTW WTF is "Kathy"?
--
Dermod Ryder
Deputy Assistant Grand Master,
The Honourable August, Ancient and Noble Craft Lodge of Diabologics
--
"If you see me walking down the street...
Walk on by!" - Dionne Warwick
Doctor Electron
Maneck ) transmitted:
>Doc,
>
>Tell me you didn't really send this?
Of course, it was sent, my dear. Call me "Mr. Good Citizen." Would
you have done anything different if you yourself were becoming a
victim of stalking and explicit and veiled threats by apparently
unbalanced people already clearly supporting faith hate activities? I
doubt you would have. Maybe, on the other hand, you might want to
wait until the many "....." entries in the forward to the FBI were
filled in. Not me.
An alternative theory, of course, is: If a person has some reason to
suspect that a series of faith hate crimes might be in the offing, one
might wait to see if the first one occurs, even when the first one may
be against one's own person, and then act. Me? I'm not that person.
Rightly or wrongly, I consider myself in the "Good Citizen" category,
as, I believe, Shoghi Effendi wanted us to be. Well, OK, I guess we
are supposed to strive to be outstanding citizens and even gain a
reputation of such in our communities.
If, on the other hand, you really wanted to make sure it was sent;
yes, it was. And, if I may, I will add this. My real name and alias
has been known to the FBI previously because now and then I have
reported data on apparent frauds or simple crime fighting schemes or
ideas re the internet. Nothing sensational, mind you. As a result, I
can tell you I have never had an email to postm...@fbi.gov ever
returned as "undeliverable."
Robert Little
You know, when I opened up this thread, read my bombastic post and saw yours
waiting patiently below, I just had to smile with anticipation. 'Course,
tonight I'm in a better state of mind, got news of lots of exciting Baha'i
activities bouncing around my skull. If you hear a boing!, it's because
those two remaining cells have collided, allowing an actual idea to shoot
out my mouth.
Robert A. Little
"Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a49up2$1cltlf$4...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
Robert Little
terrorist who perpetrated that crime sends a videotape in which he says "It
was just a joke, so get a sense of humor, ok?" We say, "Oh, ok. Cool joke,
dude." I'm not here comparing the relative severity of the events, merely
the train of logic.
The letter Mr. Cole sent in October was not funny, was not meant to be
funny. The series of letters he has posted this month were not funny and
were not meant to be funny.
Robert A. Little
"Karen Bacquet" <karenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:u6g0p9c...@corp.supernews.com...
Robert Little
Those qualified do not wish to serve on it now. They were elected without
their seeking the position, without asking for it. They know that once
elected, they will remain elected until ill health or death forces them to
resign. Whatever plans they had before the election, whatever career thay
may have worked all their life to develop, all gone.
They know that they do not have the ability to place a call to the Guardian
or the Master if they find themselves with a difficult question. They are It
now, and the burden must be heavy beyond belief.
Wise you would be were you to pray for them, for that would be praying for
us as well.
Robert A. Little
"Doctor Electron" <globals...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:db6g6u8nprfihq1fb...@4ax.com...
Robert Little
This is perhaps a rare instance, but you have been unclear here. Are you
saying that the below named individuals and groups need to BE attacked? Or,
need to attack?
Well, maybe it's just me.
Robert A. Little
"Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a49bei$1dd12n$1...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
Robert Little
Well, perhaps one can have several monikers. I used to be The Love Bomber.
Kinda liked that one. I used to miss Bruce, who liked to bestow such
bouquettes now and then, but now that Dermod is here, no longer.
Wish Nima's girlfriend would let him come out and play though. Wonder when
she's going to ask, "Nimajan, do you like children?" My older son told me
recently about a chatroom acquaintance who recently sold his Ford F250 four
wheel drive pickup and picked up a Dodge Caravan.
Should that happen, we could call Nima, Nimavan. But, what to call Dermod?
Robert A. Little
ps Nima, I apologize in advance if I step on toes. No intention save I like
to see happy couples being happy together, in love, holding hands, walking
side by side towards the setting sun along an empty beach, with seagulls
wheeling and crying, the sound of the waves quietly sursurring up to their
feet.
Ahhhhh.
"Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a49bem$1dd12n$2...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
Karen Bacquet
--
"The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice . . ." --
Baha'u'llah
Robert Little <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bj3a8.432$8a2.2...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> So, Karen, to follow your logic. The Twin Towers fall, and then the
> terrorist who perpetrated that crime sends a videotape in which he says
"It
> was just a joke, so get a sense of humor, ok?" We say, "Oh, ok. Cool joke,
> dude." I'm not here comparing the relative severity of the events, merely
> the train of logic.
>
> The letter Mr. Cole sent in October was not funny, was not meant to be
> funny. The series of letters he has posted this month were not funny and
> were not meant to be funny.<<
Robert,
No, the post in October was not meant to be funny. Nor were any of Juan's
recent responses about it. What Juan was doing in the post I'm talking
about was poking fun at both the pseudonymed Dr. Electron, with his
privacy-protected email and Peter Khan, not the issues surrounding the
"Prayer for America" post, which wasn't even mentioned in that post.
And Robert, comparing Juan to those terrorists is not nice, and you know
it's not nice, and I expect better from you. Yeah, I know I've been
immoderate myself lately, but I wouldn't even compare Susan to a terrorist,
no matter how mad she got me.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Freethought110
"> Reporter's notebook: Does anyone know of a case where a Professor of
> History (Juan Cole) and his apparent sidekicks have engaged in
> stalking and threatening the wrong person, vis a vis the object of
> their malicious intents? The Juan Cole faith hate story just keeps
> getting better every day.
Hey Doc, anytime you wanna meet for real, mono e mono, man to man, just say
the word.
--
Freethought110
Doctor Electron
<rlit...@socal.rr.com> transmitted:
>So, Karen, to follow your logic. The Twin Towers fall, and then the
>terrorist who perpetrated that crime sends a videotape in which he says "It
>was just a joke, so get a sense of humor, ok?" We say, "Oh, ok. Cool joke,
>dude." I'm not here comparing the relative severity of the events, merely
>the train of logic.
>
>The letter Mr. Cole sent in October was not funny, was not meant to be
>funny. The series of letters he has posted this month were not funny and
>were not meant to be funny.
>
>Robert A. Little
Hmmmm. I rely a lot on intuition. Works pretty good. How do you
think my posts have consistently called *ahead* of time, what then
occurs? [Oh? The "deep throats," you wonder? Let's just call it
intuition.]
Can anyone seriously think that the BA is simply ignoring key parts of
its own "job description?" Not even a simple innocent-looking query
to the U of M authorities re the slander, hate, misinformation,
malicious falsehoods, etc, which that campus is producing? Or is the
expectation that the BA doesn't even have the curiosity to ask?
Myself, I was and am just trying to observe and comment, you know,
like the reporter on the U of M campus [ivy covered buildings in the
background], saying, "Well, that's about all we know now, Dan."
Then, Dan from the anchor desk: "Thanks, Doctor, so what's going to
happen next?"
"Well, Dan, it's hard to say. There seems to be no end to this
apparent faith hate crime story and I've noticed lots of meetings
going on behind closed doors. There are some students and parents of
students, which is sort of a strange twist, picketing behind me here.
The signs say, 'Faith Hate U.' I saw the President and Provost enter
the building housing the law offices and that was several hours ago."
"Well, we'll bring live to our viewers any news conference."
"I'm here, Dan, this story just keeps getting bigger and bigger. My
feel is that the questions will just not go away."
"We have another minute, can you bring our viewers up to date. How
did this story break?"
Doctor Electron
<karenb...@hotmail.com> transmitted:
>And Robert, comparing Juan to those terrorists is not nice, and you know
>it's not nice, and I expect better from you. Yeah, I know I've been
>immoderate myself lately, but I wouldn't even compare Susan to a terrorist,
>no matter how mad she got me.
Isn't there a "zero tolerance" policy for things like threats,
stalking and violence in elementary, junior and senior high schools in
the U.S? What about colleges and universities?
I agree the subject is "not nice," maybe like that of the garbage man
or the forensic pathologist that has to work with a stinking corpse.
But I don't have any problems classifying stalking and threats by Dr.
Cole and his declared friends and worshippers as "terrorism." Thanks
for your input, Karen. I wonder how you might react if you were the
one who seemed to be the object of malicious intentions.
And everyone can keep their "We have grievances" chant. There are
plenty of people with worse grievances in this world who don't go out
and commit hate crime.
Doctor Electron
<rlit...@socal.rr.com> transmitted:
<snip>
>Wise you would be were you to pray for them, for that would be praying for
>us as well.
I hear you.
Karen Bacquet
>
> >And Robert, comparing Juan to those terrorists is not nice, and you know
> >it's not nice, and I expect better from you. Yeah, I know I've been
> >immoderate myself lately, but I wouldn't even compare Susan to a
terrorist,
> >no matter how mad she got me.
>
> Isn't there a "zero tolerance" policy for things like threats,
> stalking and violence in elementary, junior and senior high schools in
> the U.S? What about colleges and universities?<<
Of course there is. But if being the recipient of some heat on an Internet
forum is lumped into the category of "threats, stalking, and violence", then
I've been a victim pretty regularly for the past year and more. If you
can't stand the heat, Comic Book Guy, get out of the kitchen.
>
> I agree the subject is "not nice," maybe like that of the garbage man
> or the forensic pathologist that has to work with a stinking corpse.<<
I said nothing about the subject, but about Robert's comparison.
>
> But I don't have any problems classifying stalking and threats by Dr.
> Cole and his declared friends and worshippers as "terrorism." <<
Then you're depriving the word of all meaning and belittling the experience
of those who really are the victims of terrorism.
Thanks
> for your input, Karen. I wonder how you might react if you were the
> one who seemed to be the object of malicious intentions.<<
It depends on what is being done. As I said, being the recipient of
negative comments on Usenet is par from the course. On Beliefnet, I was
attacked quite viciously by several Baha'i fundamentalists, compared to
which you've had a nice walk in the park. As nasty as that was, I wouldn't
call it "terrorism".
>
> And everyone can keep their "We have grievances" chant. There are
> plenty of people with worse grievances in this world who don't go out
> and commit hate crime.<<
This is true. But we haven't seen a hate crime yet here on trb.
Dave Fiorito
> > But I don't have any problems classifying stalking and threats by Dr.
> > Cole and his declared friends and worshippers as "terrorism." <<
>
> Then you're depriving the word of all meaning and belittling the experience
> of those who really are the victims of terrorism.
Tell that to Dermod who insisted that the comparison between the UHJ
and al-Qaida (from Fred) was legitimate.
Cheers,
Dave
Paul Hammond
> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, "Robert Little"
> <rlit...@socal.rr.com> transmitted:
>
> >So, Karen, to follow your logic. The Twin Towers fall, and then the
> >terrorist who perpetrated that crime sends a videotape in which he says "It
> >was just a joke, so get a sense of humor, ok?" We say, "Oh, ok. Cool joke,
> >dude." I'm not here comparing the relative severity of the events, merely
> >the train of logic.
> >
> >The letter Mr. Cole sent in October was not funny, was not meant to be
> >funny. The series of letters he has posted this month were not funny and
> >were not meant to be funny.
> >
> >Robert A. Little
>
> Hmmmm. I rely a lot on intuition. Works pretty good. How do you
> think my posts have consistently called *ahead* of time, what then
> occurs? [Oh? The "deep throats," you wonder? Let's just call it
> intuition.]
>
Bwahahahaha!
You think your perfermance here has shown "accuracy" and
"foresight"?
Jeez, keep em coming, Doc - you're just too funny.
Oh, who's "Dan", for those of us that aren't mind-readers or
Americans?
Paul
Paul Hammond
It seems that my server has let me down again, and that my posts
today have entered another time-warp.
I'm reposting some, and maybe y'all can ignore them if they
repeat in a few days time.
Dermod Ryder <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a49bem$1dd12n$2...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
>
I noticed you listed yourself twice, Dermod - is this down to an
inflated sense of your own importance?
Do you prefer being Dreadful or Grim? And can't you get me a
better epithet than "Patient"? (though I'd prefer one without Kute
misspellings).
Cheers!
Paul
Paul Hammond
> Mr. Cole
>
> One of the key phrases in that citations: "...is actuated, first and
> foremost, by the broad principle that
> the followers of Baha'u'llah will, under no circumstances, suffer
themselves
> to be involved, whether as individuals or in their collective capacities,
in
> matters that would entail the slightest departure from the fundamental
> verities and ideals of their Faith."
>
> What you are suggesting (Baha'is attack in one or more ways the Taliban)
> would not affect the Taliban terribly much, but would certainly have
> consequences for the approximately one million Baha'is who live in
> predominantly Muslim lands.
>
> In fact, it may well be that your very own words will spill over into
blood,
> the blood of someone you have never met, but who you formerly called
> "friend." It may come to pass that somewhere there are men sitting around
a
> table, salivating at the opportunity for mischief your diatribes have
> presented them.
>
The bogeyman walks again!
> A very close Baha'i friend, a recent emigre from Egypt, has family and
> friends in her land of birth. Her brother became a Baha'i after being
thrown
> into jail for belonging to a notorious Baha'i family. There are currently
> numerous Baha'is in prison in that country, guilty of the horrid crime of
> loving Baha'u'llah. Your vicious attack upon people you know and don't
know
> may not cause you any particular pain or discomfort, but the same may not
be
> said for others.
>
You mean - the kind of people that would not hesitate to throw
a person into jail for just being "related to Baha'is" are going to
hesitate to get the nod from Dr Cole (not only one of those
Baha'is himself, but also a hated American) before going on
with their persecutions?
Give us a break - this is an unbelievable fantasy.
Unless Juan, or someone else posts an Egyptian Baha'i's address
to this public newsgroup (never a good idea, even for those
of us who live in open societies - there are whackos everywhere),
then the fact that there is dissension in the ranks is going to
make no difference whatsoever to the IRI, whoever watches
in Egypt, the FBI or anyone.
> Mr. Cole, you have an opportunity to apologize to those you have wronged,
to
> ask for prayers, to offer prayers. I urge you to take it.
LOL - I really wish you guys would quit the "danger to Baha'is in
the middle east" kick every time someone says something
here that you don't like.
Really, you can't be serious!
Paul
Paul Hammond
news:20020211130620...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> >No, certainly not. Juan's tongue was firmly in his cheek in that post,
and
> >in fact, he recommended that another poster here, who took also took it
at
> >face value, get a sense of humor. Nobody with their wits about them
would
> >take that post seriously.
> >
> >Love, Karen
> >http://www.bacquet.tk
>
> So that was just the normal let's attack a member of the House of Justice
for
> the fun of it type of posting. Gosh folks here a so much fun!
Nah - Peter Khan deserves it for other reasons - remember, he's
only infallible when he is in a plenary session with the other eight
Gentlemen of Haifa - alone, he's as uninspired as the rest of us
Paul
Paul Hammond
> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, sma...@aol.com (Susan
> Maneck ) transmitted:
>
> >Doc,
> >
> >Tell me you didn't really send this?
>
> Of course, it was sent, my dear. Call me "Mr. Good Citizen." Would
> you have done anything different if you yourself were becoming a
> victim of stalking and explicit and veiled threats by apparently
> unbalanced people already clearly supporting faith hate activities? I
> doubt you would have. Maybe, on the other hand, you might want to
> wait until the many "....." entries in the forward to the FBI were
> filled in. Not me.
>
LOL - are you talking about Dermod now? And, can you substantiate
that "Faith Hate Activities" claim? And, are you going to
answer my posts?
btw - are you filing charges against me for calling you a
"stupid bastard"? You want Cambridgeshire or Scotland
Yard for the - the FBI doesn't come here, no matter how many
episodes of the X Files you have seen.
> An alternative theory, of course, is: If a person has some reason to
> suspect that a series of faith hate crimes might be in the offing, one
> might wait to see if the first one occurs, even when the first one may
> be against one's own person, and then act. Me? I'm not that person.
> Rightly or wrongly, I consider myself in the "Good Citizen" category,
> as, I believe, Shoghi Effendi wanted us to be. Well, OK, I guess we
> are supposed to strive to be outstanding citizens and even gain a
> reputation of such in our communities.
>
Huh? You *don't* believe that a faith hate crime has occured
now, or do you? Or are you scared of Dermod even though he
lives across the pond? What was it you were saying again?
You're confusing us all - and if you *don't* think a crime
has been committed, why contact the Feds?
> If, on the other hand, you really wanted to make sure it was sent;
> yes, it was. And, if I may, I will add this. My real name and alias
> has been known to the FBI previously because now and then I have
> reported data on apparent frauds or simple crime fighting schemes or
> ideas re the internet. Nothing sensational, mind you. As a result, I
> can tell you I have never had an email to postm...@fbi.gov ever
> returned as "undeliverable."
>
So, there *is* a postmaster at that address. "Wow!" - are we
meant to be impressed that your guess at this address proved
correct? Or are we just meant to look up the word "telnet"
in case you dazzle us with your amazing inability to keep
attributions straight?
Keep em coming, Dr Clown!
Paul
Paul Hammond
appears now, or in a few days time)
Dave Fiorito <bighapp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0853486.02021...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Unfortunately, a weird Baha'i sub-cult has arisen. It structurally
> > resembles al-Qaida, and differs from al-Qaida only with regard to
> > methods, not ideals.
>
> Uh. No. Al-Qaida has no ideals. Islam is simply a means to an end
> for Osama bn Laden. Any comparison between Al-Qaida and the Baha'i
> Faith is simply inflamatory and invalid.
>
I'll give you inflammatory, but I won't give you invalid. Hyperbolic,
perhaps. Al-Qaida *is* an organisation of idealists - just because
we think their ideals stink doesn't mean they don't have any -
it's just that they think their ideas are worth killing for, and that
is certainly one point of difference between them and the
Baha'is.
> > It does not usually employ violence or terrorism
> > (though persons with this mindset have beaten up friends of mind).
>
> Dude, "your friend" pissed someone off and they smacked him. This has
> nothing to do with the issue.
>
Yeah, but those who were pissed off seemed to think they were
doing God's work in shutting Nima up. Perhaps, since Juan
says "friends" he is referring to more people than just Nima.
> > And, most frighteningly of all, it has taken over and subverted the
> > main institutions of the Baha'i faith.
>
> Uh, no it has not. Show me the decisions of the UHJ that lead you to
> that conculsion.
>
I think this is an invitation to open the floodgates!
>
> > 1)
> >
> > Al-Qaida believes in the destruction of secular, civil governments and
> > replacing them with a fascist theocracy.
> >
> > Baha'i theocrats believe in the destruction of secular, civil
> > governments and replacing them with a fascist theocracy.
>
> Again - not true. The vision expressed by individuals such as Ian
> Semple do not include destruction or replacement. Their conceptual
> model (which is simply opinion) states that Government will evolve
> into a system based on Baha'i principles. He talks about evolution,
> not revolution.
>
As Juan said - the Nazis did not have a revolution, they were elected
to power, and then abolished democracy. I don't myself see how
the Baha'i administration could take over civil government in any
country, but there *are* Baha'is who expect this to happen.
> >
> > "I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long
> > talks about this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be
> > ruled by houses of justice and there will eventually be no distinction
> > between church and state, with rather snide and smug comments about
> > how at last the world will finally get it right and have God and
> > Government fused through the power of the Baha'i covenant."
>
> Yes, this is a pilgrim note from a man who holds no authority in the
> Baha'i Faith. This is his opinion. As an opinion it is as valid and
> binding as yours.
>
But, the opinions of Tony Blair have more influence on Britain than
the opinions of an individual voter like myself - the opinions of
individual members of the UHJ must surely affect what is considered
orthodoxy within the Baha'i Faith.
> > Note that this is the opposite of what `Abdu'l-Baha says in the
> > Treatise on Leadership:
> >
> > http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/trans/vol2/absiyasi.htm
>
>
> > Semple also put out a letter from the Secretariat of the UHJ:
> >
> > "As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March
> > 1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the
> > relationship of the Baha'i institutions to those of the country in
> > which the Baha'is reside make it unthinkable that they would ever
> > purpose to violate a country's constitution or so to meddle in its
> > political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of
> > government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of
> > abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any
> > means imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means,
> > decide to adopt Baha'i laws and practices and modify its constitution
> > or method of government accordingly."
>
> If this is from the UHJ then it is not from Ian Semple. Letters from
> the UHJ come from the body itself and not individual members. Of
> course you know this already.
>
So, this shows that the UHJ and Semple think similar things, does it
not?
> > In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> > elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.
>
> Puh-leez. Your statement is a simple inflamitory meant to evoke a
> base reaction. Nazis bad, democracy good therefore Baha'is bad cause
> Juan Cole said so.
>
Or, it could be that the Nazis are the best known recent case of
a one-party state coming into existence through democratic
means - though I would say that I don't expect Baha'is to
murder their political opponents as Hitler did, and Mugabe is
doing.
> Furthermore you missed the point. If the US ammends the constitution
> with a law based on a Baha'i principle how would that not be
> democratic - and what the heck does this have to do with al-Qaida?
Nothing to do with al-Qaida - but we are on the Nazi comparison
now - Hitler amended the German constitution according to
democratic processes after he became chancellor - thus,
according to your argument, everything that Hitler did was
democratic. Though, I guess if you are just saying that one
particular law might draw on Baha'i ideas, rather than a
change in the electoral process, then that would indeed
still be democratic.
> They would not have the patience to wait for thier ideology to be
> voted in. They just want to take control now - no votes and no
> debate. Your comparision is looking weaker and weaker.
>
There were some further examples given drawing on Algeria - I
would think that the better comparison, an Islamic party trying
to get elected in order to abolish democracy, and establish sharia
law rather than secular norms.
> > By the way, the Islamists (with al-Qaida links) tried this in Algeria,
and the
> > democrats and secularists fought back, embroiling the country in a
> > civil war that has cost 100,000 lives. This is the sort of conflict
> > between theocratic Baha'is and the rest of society that Semple is
> > urging on the world. At that point would the Baha'i theocrats refrain
> > from violence?
>
> Pure speculation and more rhetorical parlor tricks. This is not the
> kind of change mentioned in the letter from the UHJ quoted above. The
> whole "violence" reference is nearly comedic.
>
I'm not sure - some of the right-wing extremists in your country
wouldn't think twice about using violence to oppose a one-world
government. Still, that's hardly Ian Semple's fault.
>
> > 2) Al-Qaida wishes to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate as the One
> > World Government.
> >
> > Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
> > envision it ruling the world.
>
> Uh. No again. At least not in any authoritaive way. Some individuals
> may hold that point-of-view but it is equally as valid as your own -
> you know, diversity of thought and all that.
>
Hence, not "all Baha'is" but "Baha'i theocrats" are the ones which
want to do this.
>
> > 3) Al-Qaida despises parliamentary democracy as corrupt, money-driven
> > and unrepresentative. It wishes to overthrow parliaments and
> > institute authoritarian religious rule instead.
> >
> > Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> > substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> > for civil government.
>
> Give me a break Juan. This is moving into the world of fantasy now.
> Baha'i governing bodies are freely elected. Just becuase the people
> you want to elect don't get elected is no reason to cry foul.
>
Yes, Baha'i bodies are freely elected bodies that tend to end
up with life appointments that come out of appointments to
prominent bodies by the present incumbents. It sure don't
look much like democracy.
Paul
Paul Hammond
>
> But I don't have any problems classifying stalking and threats by Dr.
> Cole and his declared friends and worshippers as "terrorism." Thanks
> for your input, Karen. I wonder how you might react if you were the
> one who seemed to be the object of malicious intentions.
>
Say what? Juan Cole has *worshippers* now? Which planet did
*that* particular theory come from, numb-nuts?
So, when are you setting Scully on me exactly?
Paul
Paul Hammond
Have you heard from the local Ulster boys that they received
their information about your serious stalking activities
post-haste from the offices of Agent Scully yet?
Send us a photograph when the case comes to court!
Paul
Karen Bacquet
"The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice . . ." --
Baha'u'llah
Paul Hammond <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.0202...@posting.google.com...
Not only that, Paul, he's supposedly got "declared" worshippers. I wonder
who those people are, since I haven't noticed anybody declaring themselves a
"Juan Worshipper". What kind of rituals would such a group have, I wonder?
There's opportunity for satire here, big-time, if I've got the time to think
about it. (One thing I like about the liberals, we do, at least, have a
sense of humor.)
Juan *does* have friends, however, and I'll plead guilty to being one, but
I'm not entirely sure how that's a criminal offense. I have friends, too --
hey, Paul, maybe next Comic Book Guy will be claiming all you guys are
"Karen worshippers". I mean, Rod already dubbed me a "saint" and
"Dragonslayer", so there's some potential here. Maybe I can compete with
Juan as an alternative cult -- and Juan, being a pretty tolerant guy, would
probably even put up with it, and not try to get his devotees to shun my
devotees. No shunning allowed; both sides would just argue a lot, and after
that's all out of our systems we could do something fun like watch old
movies together, as a demonstration of unity in diversity. Now, *there's* a
ritual.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Jay Paine
No shunning allowed; both sides would just argue a lot, and after
>that's all out of our systems we could do something fun like watch old
>movies together, as a demonstration of unity in diversity. Now, *there's*
a
>ritual.
Hi Karen.
Why not just go straight to watching the movies together, and forget the
rest?
Now, *where's* the popcorn?
Jay
Michael McKenny
Narn, Paul. I think Doc heard them talking about the Book of Zhik
Juan and formed his understanding on that basis. Those who don't get it
missed a good SF series, Babylon Five.
Thrice Three Blessings, Michael.
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
Dermod Ryder
Hi Robert
>
> You know, when I opened up this thread, read my bombastic post and
saw yours
> waiting patiently below, I just had to smile with anticipation.
'Course,
> tonight I'm in a better state of mind, got news of lots of exciting
Baha'i
> activities bouncing around my skull. If you hear a boing!, it's
because
> those two remaining cells have collided, allowing an actual idea to
shoot
> out my mouth.
There are lotsa exciting Bahai activities here too but precious few
results to show for them. Perhaps a little more thought given to
events that might or are aimed at producing results would be more
beneficial. It always seems to me that Bahais preach to themselves
(the converted) about how wonderful and relevant they are but the
outside world doesn't seem to share that opinion. I, and maybe they,
fail to see the relevance of Training Institutes and an Arc that few
will ever see to the real problems in the world. Maybe it's because I
live in a society where many are engaged in real effort to fuse
disparate elements into a tolerant unity (and God knows our disunity
was worse than that currently manifest within Bahai). It might also
be that community resources are directed by government into the
improvement of schools, hospitals, transport and the eradication of
the inequities of poverty rather than grandiose building projects
designed to project a non-existent importance.
The message appears to be - turn to Bahai and it can solve all the
problems yet it cannot resolve its own internal conflict and dissent.
In other words the Bahai system doesn't work in uniting people - if it
did they would use it to solve their own problems. That surely would
be the proof of the pudding. Damnit Robert - when they close the only
activity (the Wilmette Twilight Home) that even vaguely resembled
philantrophy and pursue a publisher over his commercial contracts,
they proclaim their moral bankruptcy loud and clear.
The absolute horror is that the ordinary Bahais close their ears and
eyes and acquiesce in this masquerade of a religion. They should rise
and reform it - without then it is nothing - the AO is their servant
and they should treat it that way.
Juan Cole
U.S. Congress and the American Constitution. Do you really think both
must be abolished? When exactly do you envisage being in a position
to carry out this erasure? You haven't said if you believe the
American system of government and way of life to be "rotten" and in
need of being overturned.
Please enlighten us.
cheers Juan
Doctor Electron
(Paul Hammond) transmitted:
>Jeez, keep em coming, Doc - you're just too funny.
Thanks. How about this? TRB fan email to Dr. Cole:
"Whatever you do, don't make any deals. If they offer you a lesser
charge, don't take it. Just say no."
>Oh, who's "Dan", for those of us that aren't mind-readers or
>Americans?
"Well, Dan (Rather, CBS news), as far as the national media is
concerned, the story broke when .... etc."