Freedom of association as a basic human right
diamondsouled
is included in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Have also been thinking about how Baha'i religious practice
contravenes this right and how a religion which has progressive
aspects has evolved to not recognize this basic human right.
The illogic of the Baha'i religious practice of shunning those it has
labeled as covenant breakers is that a Baha'i could be forced to
associate with a fellow Baha'i whose character is shady while at the
same time being forced to not associate with a Baha'i from a different
sect whose character is laudable. Not only is this illogical, in
Canadian law it is illegal because it contravenes our Character of
Rights and Freedoms right of association.
Which makes more sense? The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms or
Baha'i religious practice, Baha'i religious law? A Baha'i religious
law which can even force family members to not associate with each
other on threat of being excommunicated from the Baha'i religion?
There are aspects of Baha'i belief that need to be shed before the
Baha'i religion can truly be a humanitarian religion, a religion which
truly honors the human rights of all, a religion fit for this time in
humanities history.
Eddie
This law of shunning the Covenant Breakers was very important when
this Faith was born. It was to protect the Faith from being undermined
by the Forces of EVIL, in other word, to insure humanity survival.
This little Beautiful Faith, the last refuge for the Human Race, being
blackmailed throughout the last century and may I say, since it was
born and yet survived, is like a "Rose that grew from concrete" and it
needs to be protected by any measure until it reaches maturity. Enjoy
my lovely song here and understand its meaning :-):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slNJdhxU8Hw
As this Faith grows, I believe this law will definitely be abrogated
in the future. You should remember that there are laws in the Faith
that as time goes, will be irrelevant and not useful anymore and most
of those laws are social laws. Also, note that one of the major
principles of this Faith is that: Religion must be progressive!
diamondsouled
You're joking right? At least I hope you're joking. If not you need to
remember the words of the Most Great Hypocrite:
Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath
caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the
revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 87)
Bob
rights be violated, requires a truly classic twisting of the mind.
It becomes much more clear when one recognizes that, to impose a dogma
that opposes human rights, one must enforce it with violations of
human rights.
Eddie
I believe you maybe a Christian, did you notice that there are a lot
of laws that violate human rights in your bible?
Even though Baha'is believe that the Bahai Faith is divinely ordained,
but we understand that the Faith operates in the world that is not
perfect. It happened that the Manifestation of God for this Age,
Baha'u'llah, was throwing away many of the tablets and verses he was
writing in the river because he felt humanity was not ready to grasp
the truths he revealed.
The problem is not the Faith, or the Manifestation of God, rather
believers can be misled if they are not strong spiritually or/and
don't know enough the history of their Faith.
Diamondsouled posted the verses of Baha'u'llah disapproving shunning,
why then the Master, the Center of the Covenant, Abdu'l-baha upheld
that law of shunning, specifically for Covenant Breakers? Because
without it, I believe many of the Baha'is, however dedicated that they
maybe to Faith, they are still imperfect humans and could not have
been able to protect the Faith and also to protect themselves. The
Faith always discourages Bahais to associate themselves with the
Covenant Breakers, in particular the new Baha'is as it's can be easier
to be misled.
And again the fact that we, Baha'is understand that Religion is/must
be Progressive, it means we are always mindful that there are a lot of
social laws that will finally be abrogated and new social laws will
replace them as time goes.
This Faith has 500K years to go, for humanity to reach maturity
spiritually, and I don't expect laws such as shunning the CBs to last
forever. At this stage, when a few western leaders can decide to
murder more than 50K non-white people because of oil, without regards
to human lives and the world is silent, many of we human beings are at
this point, like animals devoid of any spirituality. We are like
little children who don't know the truth from wrong and we are like
little flowers that are growing up and may I say that the beginning of
the Bahai Faith will always be known as the point of reference when a
human being started to grow spiritually.
Eddie
Read now, what the Center of the Covenant, Abdu'l-baha states below.
The law of shunning is still applied specifically to CBs.
"And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles of the
Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the Covenant-breakers, for
they will utterly destroy the Cause of God, exterminate His Law and
render of no account all efforts exerted in the past."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Will and Testament, Page: 20)
Bob
> I believe you maybe a Christian, did you notice that there are a lot
> of laws that violate human rights in your bible?
Classic. Change the subject, accuse someone else of your own flaw.
Very well. Just to prove the point. Let's just say that MY religion
advocates genocide. Stipulated, okay?
Now explain to me how that justifies Baha'is violating human rights.
This should be a fascinating explanation.
(Well uh, let's see, you guys are bad, so I guess that makes it okay
for us to be bad. Yeah, that's it.)
>
> Even though Baha'is believe that the Bahai Faith is divinely ordained,
> but we understand that the Faith operates in the world that is not
> perfect.
So that excuses it? Not only are the Christians bad. The WORLD is
bad. Hmm. Using THAT rationalization, exactly what violations of
human rights by Baha'is would NOT be excusable?
> It happened that the Manifestation of God for this Age,
> Baha'u'llah, was throwing away many of the tablets and verses he was
> writing in the river because he felt humanity was not ready to grasp
> the truths he revealed.
Yeah, right. Like the world is ready to accept the Golden Rule,
right? We should throw away the Word of God because the world is bad.
This is getting really good.
>
> The problem is not the Faith, or the Manifestation of God, rather
> believers can be misled if they are not strong spiritually or/and
> don't know enough the history of their Faith.
So people are stupid. And you needed a divine revelation to learn
that.
And stupid people's rights should not be respected.
What a great religion you have! Where do I sign up? What river do I
throw MY rights into?
>
> Diamondsouled posted the verses of Baha'u'llah disapproving shunning,
> why then the Master, the Center of the Covenant, Abdu'l-baha upheld
> that law of shunning, specifically for Covenant Breakers? Because
> without it, I believe many of the Baha'is, however dedicated that they
> maybe to Faith, they are still imperfect humans and could not have
> been able to protect the Faith and also to protect themselves. The
> Faith always discourages Bahais to associate themselves with the
> Covenant Breakers, in particular the new Baha'is as it's can be easier
> to be misled.
This is getting better and better. It reminds me of the tyrant who
brilliantly exposited that democracy is a wonderful thing--- but only
if the voters vote the right way--- meaning of course, HIS way. And
if they don't, well then, no more democracy for you!
>
> And again the fact that we, Baha'is understand that Religion is/must
> be Progressive, it means we are always mindful that there are a lot of
> social laws that will finally be abrogated and new social laws will
> replace them as time goes.
Wow. You never knew that? And WHO gets to choose WHICH laws are
social, and which should be abrogated? The people who VIOLATE basic
human rights? Yeah, let's trust THOSE guys.
>
> This Faith has 500K years to go, for humanity to reach maturity
> spiritually, and I don't expect laws such as shunning the CBs to last
> forever.
So we can wait HOW many years for our rights to be respected?
Frankly, after about 100 years, I might begin to lose my patience.
> At this stage, when a few western leaders can decide to
> murder more than 50K non-white people because of oil,
Oh, good grief. Like we never bombed Ploesti?
I'll tell you what, then. Drilling in Anwar could save millions of
lives, if what you are saying is true. Canadian oil sands could save
millions more lives. Sheesh. Do you realize what this means? Green
Peace is an organization of genocidal maniacs. At least if one
accepts your premise.
> without regards
> to human lives and the world is silent, many of we human beings are at
> this point, like animals devoid of any spirituality.
Now you're getting scary. We, the subhumans, do not deserve any
rights.
> We are like
> little children who don't know the truth from wrong
Yes, master. We must obey the wise ones. And who decides who ARE the
wise ones? Why, of course. The WISE ONEs decide. Yes, it all makes
perfect sense now.
> and we are like
> little flowers that are growing up and may I say that the beginning of
> the Bahai Faith will always be known as the point of reference when a
> human being started to grow spiritually.
Or like the beginning of a world wide tyranny that commits genocide---
but only because the people need it to protect their God-given human
rights.
Eddie, allow me to inject a bit of sanity here, a wisdom not my own---
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created
equal, endowed by their CREATOR [as opposed to the Baha'i
administrative order] with certain UNALIENABLE RIGHTS...."
Hmm. Does the word unalienable mean that the Baha'i AO can take away
what the CREATOR gave to us?
Eddie, wake up. Get your head out of the ideological trap in which
your soul is suffocating. Stop justifying unjustifiable behavior.
Isn’t there a Baha’i saying that human rights are God-given? Then
stop making excuses for people who think they are wise enough and
virtuous enough to violate them.
They aren’t.
Eddie
your arguments when you believe that Obama is a Marxist? You are so
stupid! You make fool of yourself, in this group!!
diamondsouled
because humanity is not ready for those human rights? I suggest that
it is the Baha'i Faith itself which stands in the way of those basic
human rights being respected in many cases.
So Abdu'l-Baha' violates his father's word which is supposedly the
word of god himself and that is OK with you? So whose word trumps
whose word, the word of the manifestation or the word of the servant
of the manifestation?
It is quite apparent that Mirza Husyan Ali, Abbas Effendi, Shoghi
Effendi, as well as the members of the Universal House of Justice
today, are all hypocrites in that none of them has followed these
supposed words of god:
Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath
caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the
revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 95)
"Nullified and abolished" is quite clear in it's meaning. Of course
maybe he meant to say: "nullified and abolished", except for Baha'is.
There is also this clear example of the hypocrisy of the founders of
the Baha'i religion:
In this way His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh expressed the oneness of
humankind whereas in all religious teachings of the past, the human
world has been represented as divided into two parts, one known as the
people of the Book of God or the pure tree and the other the people of
infidelity and error or the evil tree. The former were considered as
belonging to the faithful and the others to the hosts of the
irreligious and infidel; one part of humanity the recipients of divine
mercy and the other the object of the wrath of their Creator. His
Holiness Bahá'u'lláh removed this by proclaiming the oneness of the
world of humanity and this principle is specialized in His teachings
for He has submerged all mankind in the sea of divine generosity. Some
are asleep; they need to be awakened. Some are ailing; they need to be
healed. Some are immature as children; they need to be trained. But
all are recipients of the bounty and bestowals of God.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 246)
So Abdu'l-Baha's father Baha'u'llah removed the past religious
practice of dividing humanity: "the pure tree and the other the people
of infidelity and error or the evil tree." Why reinstate the exact
same religious practice after it had supposedly been removed? A
religious practice which dehumanizes fellow human beings simply
because their personal religious interpretations differ from ones own.
A religious practice which not only makes it OK to see these people as
"spiritual lepers" but which counsels that these lepers be shunned
because they are contagious; even if these people are ones own
relatives, ones own parents, ones own children. Me thinks we can do
without such a backward religion and it's religious practices which
are medieval at best.
Cheers
Larry Rowe
Bob
>
> Bob, tell me why should I read your messages or even take seriously
> your arguments when you believe that Obama is a Marxist? You are so
>
Eddie, you should not only NOT read my messages, you apparently do
not.
After I detailed numerous reasons why your excuses for violating human
rights are weak, your only reply is that you disbelieve that Obama is
a Marxist???
There was nothing else I wrote that you could reply to? Not a word?
While the question of whether Obama's self-proclaimed associations
with Marxists indicate his views is debatable, I do not think that the
question of human rights coming from God is debatable if you are
EITHER a Christian or a Baha'i. But once again, when the facts and
logic disprove your case, it is a time tested tactic to change the
subject.
Nice try.
.
NUR
> On Sep 7, 4:57 pm, Eddie <eddienin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Bob, tell me why should I read your messages or even take seriously
> > your arguments when you believe that Obama is a Marxist? You are so
> > stupid! You make fool of yourself, in this group!!- Hide quoted text -
>
> Eddie, you should not only NOT read my messages, you apparently do
> not.
>
> After I detailed numerous reasons why your excuses for violating human
> rights are weak, your only reply is that you disbelieve that Obama is
> a Marxist???
Fool, when Obama's cabinet if filled with representatives of the
Wallstreet corporatocracy, exactly how does that make him a Marxist?
Bob
You have no CLUE who is in Obama's Administration.
He has appointed more so-called Czars than any of his predecessors,
and they reek of statism.
Van Jones. (Green Jobs Czar) Self proclaimed Marxist
■Became a communist in the aftermath of the 1992 “Rodney King riots”
in Los Angeles.
Brennan, John (Terrorism Czar)
In mid-2009, he effectively declared an end to the War on Terror: “The
President does not describe this as a ‘War on Terrorism,’”
Carrion, Adolfo Jr. (Urban Affairs Czar )■Anti American activist and
leftist group member in Latin America.
Carter, Ashton (Weapons Czar) ■Wants all private weapons in US
destroyed. ■Supports UN ban on firearms ownership in America.
Crowley, Jeffrey (AIDS Czar) ■Homosexual gay rights activist.
■Believes in gay marriage and special status for gays, including free
health care.
Davis, Cameron (Great Lakes Czar) ■Chicago radical anti business
environmentalist. ■Blamed George Bush for “Poisoning the water that
minorities have to drink.” ■No experience or training in water
management.
Devaney, Earl (Stimulus Accountability Czar) ■Spent career trying to
take guns away from American citizens.
■Believes in Open Borders to Mexico. ■Author of statement blaming US
gun stores for drug war in Mexico. [Incidentally, it turns out that
Obama was sending guns so as to blame the gun stores!]
Fried, Daniel (Guantanamo Closure Czar) ■Rights activist for foreign
terrorists.■Believes America has caused the war on terrorism.■Said,
“The average Guantanamo detainee…is not a hardened terrorist, not an
organizer.”
Gration, J. Scott (Sudan Czar) ■Pushed for normalizing relations with
the only country (Sudan) in the world led by a president indicted for
war crimes.
Holdren, John (Science Czar) ■Views capitalism as an economic system
that is inherently harmful to the natural environment.
Jennings, Kevin (Safe Schools Czar)■Openly gay founder of an
organization dedicated to promoting pro-homosexual clubs and curricula
in public schools.■As a teacher, when a 16 year old boy told him he
was having sex with an older man, instead of turning in the man, he
asked how it was going and suggested they use condoms.■Expressed his
contempt for religion.■Wrote the forward for the book, “Queering
Elementary Education.”■Has repeatedly praised and claims to be
inspired by Harry Hay, early supporter of NAMBLA, (North American Man
Boy Love Association).■Founded the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education
Network (GLSEN), which seeks to normalize homosexual behavior and
teach students that opposition to homosexuality or to “transgenderism”
is a form of “oppression.”■Said he hoped that promoting homosexuality
in schools would be considered fine in the future.
Kundra, Vivek (Information Czar) ■Controls all public information,
including labels and news releases.
■Can monitor all private Internet emails.
NUR
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/cabinet
Department of State
Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton
http://www.state.gov
Department of the Treasury
Secretary Timothy F. Geithner *****
http://www.treasury.gov
Department of Defense
Secretary Leon E. Panetta
http://www.defenselink.mil
Department of Justice
Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr.
http://www.usdoj.gov
Department of the Interior
Secretary Kenneth L. Salazar
http://www.doi.gov
Department of Agriculture
Secretary Thomas J. Vilsack
http://www.usda.gov
Department of Commerce
Acting Secretary Dr. Rebecca M. Blank
http://www.commerce.gov
Department of Labor
Secretary Hilda L. Solis
http://www.dol.gov
Department of Health and Human Services
Secretary Kathleen Sebelius
http://www.hhs.gov
Department of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary Shaun L.S. Donovan
http://www.hud.gov
Department of Transportation
Secretary Ray LaHood
http://www.dot.gov
Department of Energy
Secretary Steven Chu
http://www.energy.gov
Department of Education
Secretary Arne Duncan
http://www.ed.gov
Department of Veterans Affairs
Secretary Eric K. Shinseki
http://www.va.gov
Department of Homeland Security
Secretary Janet A. Napolitano
http://www.dhs.gov
The following positions have the status of Cabinet-rank:
White House Chief of Staff
Bill Daley
Environmental Protection Agency
Administrator Lisa P. Jackson
http://www.epa.gov
Office of Management & Budget
Jacob J. Lew, Director
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb
United States Trade Representative
Ambassador Ronald Kirk
http://www.ustr.gov
United States Ambassador to the United Nations
Ambassador Susan Rice
http://www.usunnewyork.usmission.gov/
Council of Economic Advisers
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/cea/
Bob
On Sep 10, 12:06 pm, Bob <RobertAr...@msn.com> wrote:
> Sorry if this is a re-post. Looks like it got lost.
>
>
> > Department of State
> > Secretary Hillary Rodham Clintonhttp://www.state.gov---self proclaimed "progressive" ie socialist. I'll give her this--- unlike Obama, Hillary is not lazy, not absentee, and does something other than give speeches. When the Democrats dump Obama sometime this year, Hillary will step in and take the nomination. For her, it will be sweet revenge.
> > Department of the Treasury
> > Secretary Timothy F. Geithner *****http://www.treasury.gov---tax cheat, Keynesian economics--- another spend your way out of bankruptcy idiot.
> > Department of Defense
> > Secretary Leon E. Panettahttp://www.defenselink.mil--- one of the few good choices
> > Department of Justice
> > Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr.http://www.usdoj.gov--- corrupt up to his ears. Refuses to prosecute black-on-white crimes, including voter intimidation at the polls--- in charge of operation "gun runner" which deliberately put guns into the hands of Mexican narco-terrorists as a pretext for blaming US gun ownership rights for the violence.
> > Department of the Interior
> > Secretary Kenneth L. Salazarhttp://www.doi.gov--- big Obama supporter--- political payoff
> > Department of Agriculture
> > Secretary Thomas J. Vilsackhttp://www.usda.gov--- CFR member--- enviro-whacko--- wants to de-industrialize the US
> > Department of Commerce
> > Acting Secretary Dr. Rebecca M. Blankhttp://www.commerce.gov--- big on Keynesian economics--- spend your way out of bankruptcy
> > Department of Labor
> > Secretary Hilda L. Solishttp://www.dol.gov--- WASHINGTON AND LOS ANGELES — U.S. Rep. Hilda L. Solis, President Obama's choice for Labor secretary, faced new obstacles after lawmakers who were expected to vote on her confirmation Thursday abruptly canceled the hearing amid reports of back taxes owed by her husband. Solis, a Democrat from El Monte, is at least the fourth Obama nominee whose confirmation has been complicated by tax troubles.
> > Department of Health and Human Services
> > Secretary Kathleen Sebeliushttp://www.hhs.gov--- big government health care--- advocates Obamacare--- opposes free market
> > Department of Housing and Urban Development
> > Secretary Shaun L.S. Donovanhttp://www.hud.gov--- another Harvard educated Clintonite
> > Department of Transportation
> > Secretary Ray LaHoodhttp://www.dot.gov--- another good choice
> > Department of Energy
> > Secretary Steven Chuhttp://www.energy.gov--- opposes US energy independence
> > Department of Education
> > Secretary Arne Duncanhttp://www.ed.gov --- WOW --- a third good choice!--- hooray
> > Department of Veterans Affairs
> > Secretary Eric K. Shinsekihttp://www.va.gov--- seems okay--- but not the most influential person by far in the cabinet
> > Department of Homeland Security
> > Secretary Janet A. Napolitanohttp://www.dhs.gov---- This woman has served up so many ludicrous policy suggestions that she should be a comedienne. After a terrorist was subdued by passengers, a terrorist who got on board a plane thanks to all the stupid policies of her department--- she said the system worked. (Even Obama finally admitted that it failed.) She suggested that in the future, all passengers must remain in their seat with their hands on their laps--- she refuses to call terrorists "terrorists," She said that US military veterans are dangers to the republic--- She refuses to help her home state protect itself against narco-terrorists, even though when she herself governed that state, she complained that Bush was not doing enough. And we could go on and on and on.
> > The following positions have the status of Cabinet-rank:
> > White House Chief of Staff
> > Bill Daley --- Obama is entitled to pick anyone he likes as CoS.
> > Environmental Protection Agency
> > Administrator Lisa P. Jacksonhttp://www.epa.gov --- another anti-free-market enviro-whacko
> > Office of Management & Budget
> > Jacob J. Lew, Directorhttp://www.whitehouse.gov/omb --- oh, look what a great job HE is doing LOL
> > United States Trade Representative
> > Ambassador Ronald Kirkhttp://www.ustr.gov--- again, great results, huh? As Chna walks all over us.
> > United States Ambassador to the United Nations
> > Ambassador Susan Ricehttp://www.usunnewyork.usmission.gov/---It's happened again -- Susan Rice has skipped another UN meeting critical to U.S. interests. Does Rice think it's none of America's business if the UN recognizes a government that includes Hamas? ... Her silence confuses our allies and sends the wrong signals to the UN.
>
> But the Czars are much closer to the president, and none of them are
> confirmed by the Senate--- these represent Obama's like-minded
> extremism far more than the vetted, negotiated cabinet appointments.- Hide quoted text -
>
Eddie
Larry, the Covenant of Baha'u'llah trumps everything and that's the
reason, Abdu'l-baha's interpretation of Baha'u'llah words overrides
any other human being's understanding.
Since, Baha'u'llah said none, even a Baha'i ,can understand his Faith
FULLY, so, the only way to try to grasp this Divine Revelation and
understand its meaning, is to submit ourselves to what the Center of
the Covenant, Abdu'l-baha, states.
Looks like you are a kind of a hypocrite. If you don't want to believe
in Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God in this Day, just do so, but
don't blame your lack of understanding/believing the Bahai' Revelation
on the UHJ or on the Beloved Shoghi Effendi. By the way, the key
point is to be a sincere person and if your heart or soul is not
responding positively to the Divine Essence of this Faith and its
transformational Divine Words, that would be fine in the sight of the
Divine Justice but if one wants to impose her/his human interpretation
on this Faith, that's when the problem comes up, as the aim is to
destroy the Covenant of God that insures humanity survival in this
world and beyond. Just see how a divided Islam affected the so called
Muslim Nations (Shia vs. Sunnis) as to be used by the WEST to destroy
themselves and the world in process and to even delaying the Bahai
World Peace.
As for CBs having contagious disease or spiritual disease, you should
not take this literally; rather it means Bahais should not be close to
them so as to not contacting their corrupting influence.
As Shoghi Effendi said the only way we can prove to such people that
they are wrong is to censure their conduct; if we sympathize with them
we only fortify their perversity and waywardness.
If Baha'is shun these CBs, it doesn't mean we don't love them, rather
it is kind of tough love being used here for them to change their
ways. As you know Baha'is believe in education and we don't believe in
the so called Original Sin of the Bible or the so called Talmudic
teachings of the curse of Ham or that the CBs are not able to see the
light again and recognize the Authority of the Universal House of
Justice.
Eddie
Larry, the Covenant of Baha'u'llah trumps everything and that's the
light again and recognize the Authority of the Universal House of
Justice.
diamondsouled
These are the actual words of Mirza Husayn Ali Baha:
Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath
caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the
revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 95)
The actual actions of Mirza Husayn Ali Baha, Abbas Effendi (Abdu'l-
Baha), Shoghi Effendi, as well as the members of the UHJ clearly show
that they are all, without exception, hypocrites in that they all,
without exception, practiced/practice shunning.
It is only willful ignorance which allows Baha'is to ignore this
reality.
Eddie
Larry, how about you read what Baha'u'llah also says below. It
requires guidance as to know the meaning of what he was talking about,
regarding shunning and that's the reason why, Bahais need to follow
what the Center of the Covenant, Abdu'l-Baha, says about this.
From the Writings of Baha'u'llah:
"Protect yourselves with utmost vigilance, lest you be entrapped in
the snare of deception and fraud."
This is the advice of the Pen of Destiny."Therefore, to avoid these
people will be the nearest path by which to attain the divine good
pleasure; because their breath is infectious, like unto poison."
"Endeavor to your utmost to protect yourselves, because Satan appears
in different robes and appeals to everyone according to each person's
own way, until he becomes like unto him -- then he will leave him
alone."
"...If you detect in any man the least perceptible breath of
violation, shun him and keep away from him." Then He says: "Verily,
they are manifestations of Satan."
(Baha'i World Faith, p. 431)
diamondsouled
human beings make me want to puke. Religionists have been using such
flawed reasoning to justify all sorts of crimes against humanity since
the beginning of organized religion. First you dehumanize them, cast
them as enemies, cast them as evil, cast them as less than human, cast
them as diseased and infectious; then whatever evil you do to these
people becomes justified, whatever atrocities.
What is truly infectious and poisonous are the words of your god/man
Mirza Husayn Ali Baha', a man who said one thing and did another.
The evidence of this infection and poison are in your own words and
thoughts in that you justify Baha's obvious hypocrisy of saying that
shunning is abolished and nullified but showing through his own
actions that those words were empty, without substance. Words only
given lip service and not taken to heart. Sad.
Rid yourself of this burden, walk away from the poisoned edifice of
Baha'ism.
Eddie
Baha'u'llah were spoken in time and place when the Faith was in peril
and could have
been destroyed anytime by the CBs. Speaking as a Bahai, this is the
Faith of
God and if it was to be destroyed and divided into major sects, we
could have kissed
good bye to World Peace and probably this planet could have been
destroyed already, just as many believe about the destruction of
planet Mars, ..... So, the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is the red line and
can't be challenged by any human's understanding.
diamondsouled
we mere human can't understand his Covenant, a Covenent his own son
Abdu'l-Baha' never honoured. lol. You can justify any sort of atrocity
using just that sort of reasoning and many religionists have.
"The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he
whose words exceed his deeds, know, verily, his death is better than
his life. ..."
Just what were Baha'u'llah's deeds that exceeded his words? I can't
think of a single significant deed that he was responsible for.
Ali-Reza Anghaie
bit off-kilter…
First I read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Two_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms#Freedom_of_association
And I'm not seeing how there is any violation at all?
Specifically reading the Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Association
sections and references, I don't see how the Baha'i guidance on
Covenant Breakers is in violation? Especially by the higher barriers to
entry defined in the Supreme Court cases cited in the Freedom of
Association section.
Secondly, I'm not sure how this level of association/disassociation is
considered a basic human right if no right to your personship is in
question. In a really ambigious way I could see how the Freedom of
Conscience might be perceived as applicable but even then, it would
take a great stretch of imagination simply because the metrics for
applicability have to do w/, mostly, a measure of hindrence and
reprisal in personal or commercial activity.
Now, from the perspective of The Faith, it's up to the believer to
believe or not. It's your Covenant w/ God. And you choose to associate
or not associate with any individual or group. Telling Baha'is to
believe or not believe is every bit reciprocally covered (if there is
coverage at all) as the position on Covenant Breakers.
So, I'm curious… where did you get the Legal interpretation that these
is a human rights violation? Or are you speaking more theologically?
Cheers, -Ali
diamondsouled
> I'm a bit confused, I just read the thread but it seems to have gone a
> bit off-kilter…
>
> First I read:
>
Freedoms to force people to not associate with one another because of
their race, because of their ethnicity, because of their religion, so
to is it against the Charter to force people to not associate with one
another because of difference of religious interpretation.
Quite simple really.
The members of the Baha'i National Spiritual Assembly of Canada
violated my human rights by stating in an issue of Baha'i Canada that
I was not allowed to associate with John Carr. A man whose integrity
and love for humanity put those same members of the NSA to shame.
This illegal prohibition against association would of course be
directed against John's children and their children, in perpetuity.
Yes 'crime against humanity', quite accurately describes such
backwardness.
Ali-Reza Anghaie
that charter there is no tangeable loss to you or your person for you
to maintain the voluntary association with The Faith or the Covenant
Breaker.
You can hold this opinion but I don't see a legal basis for it. You're
stating there is a legal violation, which ~would~ be something that the
Canadian NSA would have to address (as say the Iranian Baha'i's have
had to address).
It would only be violating Human Rights, as defined in the charter or
by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UN), if there was a
metric to establish harm in commerce or life to you that could not be
remedied by your own voluntary actions. In this case there clearly is
no such limit to you or Mr. Carr (who I understood to have passed,
please correct me if I'm wrong).
So you're making a personal statement and judgement but to say illegal
or a violation of human rights is just patently false.
However, to say it doesn't make sense in the context of the greater
spirit of the Baha'i Faith, I'm inclined to generally agree. And it has
troubled me most of my life. It is something that I hope will be
addressed by the Universal House of Justice in my lifetime. Although I
don't presume to know when best said issues should be taken up.
I appreciate your time and perspective, Cheers, -Ali
diamondsouled
being spiritually contagious lepers begs the question, what will the
Baha'i final solution be if they are ever in a majority in a country,
(God forbid!).
Will their final solution to the Covenant Breaker problem be to exile
these individuals or perhaps create special camps for them and their
children so they don't have to risk being infected though association?
Or perhaps they will simply take the Akka solution and murder those
they have so dehumanized, just as the 7 Bayanis at the gate in Akka
were murdered by 12 Baha'is.
The malady which is represented in dehumanizing ones fellow human
beings as spiritually infectious lepers simply because their religious
interpretations differ is evident to all fair minded people. It is as
evident as the sun at high noon that such thinking has no place in our
day and age.
Cheers
Larry Rowe
Ali-Reza Anghaie
propoganda that was generated in Iran and has been integrated into
documentaries that include conspiracy theories about Freemasonry
creating the Baha'i Faith and such.
I even agreed the concepts troubled me but you move directly toward
concentration camps and religous genocide. Really, do you think that
actually moves to remedy a problem? Today and now, how do you propose
reconciling the differences? Are you searching and believe their to be
a middle-ground or do you suggest the only remedy is for the UHJ to
submit to self-described Orthodox/Reform Baha'i beliefs? -Ali
diamondsouled
a middle-ground or do you suggest the only remedy is for the UHJ to
submit to self-described Orthodox/Reform Baha'i beliefs?"
against by the US Justice system in their recent attempt to make it
illegal for Orthodox Baha'is to call themselves Baha'is or use Baha'i
terminology I'm not quite sure if the Haifan Baha'i Faith is even
ready to acknowledge a middle ground. They seem unwilling to even
accept the fact that other sects of Baha'ism exist let alone drop the
outdated religious practice of dehumanizing the people of those other
sects and shunning them.
What Baha'is of all sects need to do is submit to reality. The reality
that some of their religious teachings, beliefs, and practices, are
unworthy of civilized human behavior and interaction.
Cheers
Larry Rowe
Ali-Reza Anghaie
already been found. I was asking specifically how you propsed to change
the "lines drawn" as they were. It's not like this is a one-sided
issue. There are, at least, three sides.. and all three equally
stubborn in my estimation with one side having the predominance of
population and geopolitical influence.
Now, your last paragraph indicates you have little room for Baha'i
teachings regardless. Is that accurate or is my language failing me at
the moment? If so, what's your general belief/alternative. I'm curious
and appreciate the continued response. -Ali
diamondsouled
humanity, the sad thing is with Baha'is believing in shunning their
giving voice to the teaching of the oneness of humanity becomes mere
mouthing of the words, without substance. So to with the Baha'i
teaching of the equality of women with men. As long as women are not
fully equal in the Baha'i Faith this teaching will as well be mere
mouthing of the words: "Two winged bird."
Such laudable concepts are illuminating all on their own, that is if
they are lived and not simply given lip service. All that the
supernatural Baha'i beliefs of infallibility and special divinity do
is encumber such laudable concepts, giving religionists excuses for
not actualizing such concepts in their own lives.
The tent of Baha is worn, patched, and threadbare. Illuminating
concepts need to be freed of this tent, need to be lived to be of use.
Stating that you believe in the oneness of humanity while at the same
time practicing the Baha'i religious practice of shunning negates any
illumination. Stating that you believe in the full equality of women
with men while at the same time the highest Baha'i religious body
excludes women negates any illumination.
Baha'is bring this darkness on themselves in this way. They reject
illumination in favor of conformity with religious teachings, beliefs,
and practices that negate illumination.