The Story of a Baha'i Incest Victim
Karen Bacquet
year. After long consideration of how to publish it, I have, in the
end, opted to tell the tale with identities disguised.
“Shirin” is a young Baha’i woman of Iranian descent, living in a country
in the developing world. Her father was, at the time this story began,
Chairman of the NSA in that country. I have called her non-Baha’i
friend “Buddy”, rather than give him a name that would indicate ethnicity.
Shirin claims that her father forced her into an incestuous relationship
from the time she was 13 years old. At 18, in the year 2000, she ran
away, but he found her again, and again made advances. She told him
that if he didn’t stop, she would publicly accuse him. He then
threatened to institutionalize her. Frightened by this accusation, and
desperate to stop the abuse, she made a videotape telling her story.
The next day, Shirin disappeared.
Her friends found this videotape and began asking questions about where
she was, and eventually staged public protests demanding to know her
whereabouts. Shirin’s disappearance was widely publicized; the story
appeared in at least two newspapers, and appeared nightly on t.v. while
she was gone -- and she and her family gave an interview after she
reappeared. Her friend Buddy was at the forefront of efforts to find
her, and he reports that a Continental Counsellor told him that it was
none of his business where she was, and discouraged her friends from
seeking her. At one point, it was claimed that she had gone to another
country. This person is no longer a Counsellor, but has been on the
special commission set up to deal with the case, and is currently on the
NSA, so I cannot tell if her removal from office was as a result of
mishandling the initial crisis, or not.
Shirin told me that her grandmother phoned her and asked her to come
over, reporting a family emergency, but when she arrived, her father was
there with armed men, falsely claiming to be policemen, who accused her
of being involved with drugs. She was taken to a drug rehab facility,
and kept there for over two weeks. A drug test was taken, which proved
negative. Shirin told me that the conditions there were crowded and
unhygienic, and I have evidence that this facility has been involved in
at least one other kidnapping.
Then, the police arrived at the facility, and asked her if she was there
against her will. While they were willing to release her, they were
generally unsympathetic, and she described her experience with them as
“another hell”. A forensic examination was done on her, as well as
another drug test. However, one of the cops scolded her for her
accusations, saying that even if he abused her, she should stay silent
because “he’s still your dad.” The district attorney refused to
prosecute the case, citing lack of evidence.
According to Shirin, two Baha’i Counsellors, and an NSA member who
headed up the special commission set up to deal with her case tried to
persuade her to return to her father’s home. It was this aspect, more
than anything, that convinced me to take up this case. I was utterly
horrified and appalled. No decent human being, on hearing a young girl
accuse her father of sexually abusing her, would essentially tell her to
shut up and go home. At best, this reveals a profound ignorance
concerning the realities of incest, and at worst, a callous disregard
for Shirin’s safety.
I asked why they were so set on her going home, she was, after all, 18
and in college, and an age at which young people often begin living on
their own. She said that the only reason they gave was that the
Universal House of Justice wanted it. Shirin resisted this pressure,
and continues to live on her own, but complains of harassment from her
family, and that they have done everything they can to blacken her name
in the Baha’i community.
The Baha’i administration seems to have had three concerns: that no
more bad publicity about the Baha’i Faith occur because of this case,
that Shirin be reconciled with her family and the Baha’i community, and
that she be able to move on with her life after this incident.
Strangely, they blame her for the publicity that occurred while she was
locked away. During the period last spring while I was in contact with
Buddy and Shirin, a Counsellor and NSA members were still trying to get
her to forgive her family. I have been told of two NSA members who
appear to be willing to believe the charges of abuse -- and that was
only after long exposure to the case and the behavior of this family.
(One of them, after telling Shirin that she believed she was abused, was
removed from the special commission and forbidden to have contact with
her.) Nothing in the evidence indicates that her accusation against her
father was at all taken seriously by the NSA as a whole or the UHJ.
The UHJ has taken a distant attitude, regarding it primarily as a
private family difficulty. The only action taken against Shirin’s
father was that he was asked to resign from the NSA. This, apparently,
was not intended as a sanction, because he was again elected in 2003,
and the UHJ asked him to resign again. Haifa also provided funds for
Shirin’s psychotherapy, for at least a year, and possibly longer. I was
told that this had ended by last summer, and her doctor continues to
treat her pro bono.
In March of last year, Buddy contacted me, at first asking questions
about Baha’i administrative procedure. As time went on I agreed to help
in publicizing the case.
I was only in contact with Shirin through a handful of emails, but I was
in continuous contact with Buddy through most of the spring and summer
of 2003, and again during these past few weeks. My impression of
Shirin is that she was bright and articulate, although angry and
frightened. Shirin constantly spoke of her need for justice, even
begging me to seek it on her behalf if her family kidnapped her again,
or killed her. The impression that Buddy gave was conflicting: He
would depict her as vulnerable, depressed and anxious, and unable to
cope with stress. Yet, when he reported her actions, I saw someone with
tremendous strength -- Shirin was able to resist the pressures from her
family, from numerous highly-placed Baha’i officials, and to go before
the NSA with a list of demands in her hand. I don’t think I’ve ever
seen anyone stand up to the administration in the way this young girl
has. Experts in sexual abuse say that victims seldom lie about what
they experienced, especially over a sustained period of time. Her
psychiatrist reports that she is making excellent progress in her
therapy, and is performing at the top of her class at University.
Besides helping Shirin in her quest for justice, I felt that publicity
would be a kind of protection for her -- that her family would not dare
hurt her in any way, if they knew that I would broadcast any
disappearance far and wide. It was largely publicity that got her
released from the drug rehab center in the first place, and I thought
publicity would serve as a way of ensuring that nothing further would
happen along these lines. I was quite frank in my opinion that the
possibility that she would get any substantial action from the Baha’i
institutions was remote. I couldn’t guarantee her justice; I could only
promise that the injustice with which she was treated would not remain
unknown.
I’ll state here publicly that, even now, if Shirin is again forcibly
institutionalized or she should disappear or any harm come to her, I
will place all evidence I have on this case on my website.
It is only right that the Baha’i institutions should take a strong stand
against child sexual abuse, and avoid even the appearance of
countenancing such a horrible crime, and it was in protest against their
lack of action, and the pressures they were placing on Shirin, that I
intended to publicize the case.
While preparing for the article, I continually emphasized the need for
solid evidence, and was given a great deal of material. Aside from
collecting evidence for my article, Shirin put her efforts into
recording conversations that would reveal the wrongdoing on the part of
her father, family, and Baha’i officials. This was entirely her idea,
although I sympathize with this desperate attempt, on the part of a
powerless person, to be heard and taken seriously. I should make it
clear, here, that my role was primarily supportive, and I left all major
decisions in her hands. My view is, that when you are dealing with
someone struggling with a feeling of powerlessness, that you must try to
give them a sense of confidence and control. I explicitly asked Shirin
what she wanted, what “justice” would mean to her, and told her that I
would not do anything that she didn’t want me to do.
A little over a week ago, Buddy sent me an urgent message saying that
Shirin was preparing to confront the NSA with her collection of tapes.
Shirin went to the NSA with a list of demands that are basically
calculated to force the NSA to keep her family away from her, including
what amounts to a restraining order, and financial arrangements that
would make the NSA the middle-man between Shirin and her father. She
told them she had audio tapes of her conversations with the Counsellors,
NSA members, and her family members, and implied that they would be
released to the media if action was not taken. From what I’ve been told
of their contents, these audio tapes can be used to both to prove the
abuse, and the mishandling of her case by Baha’i officials.
Both Shirin and Buddy seem to have quite exaggerated expectations about
what the NSA could do for her. The NSA cannot guarantee that her family
would stay away from her; they are not a police force. The Baha’i Faith
is a religious organization that only has control over the membership
status of adherents; these kids are treating it as if it were a civil
court. Her mistake, in my opinion, is in naively believing that taking
her complaint through Baha’i channels, as Baha’is are exhorted to do,
will somehow result in justice. Buddy is clearly confused by the
administration’s charge of blackmail. In his mind, Shirin has simply
brought evidence to a body empowered to make a decision. But through
the broken English in his emails reporting on their response, I am
already seeing the familiar terminology of Baha’i denial, where
“ill-intentioned persons” are simply trying to bring the Faith into
disrepute out of inexplicable malice.
Shirin particularly wanted me to say that she loves the Baha’i Faith,
and Baha’u’llah, but that her family and NSA have done such terribly
wrong things to her that she must speak out about what has happened.
The current situation is that Shirin is planning to release her story to
the media within the next few days, and the NSA working out its own
strategy, which involves a legal complaint against Shirin, and getting
other NSAs to write letters of support to this country’s government. The
position of the Faith is somewhat precarious, and the government could
simply dissolve the Assembly in the wake of a scandal such as this. The
last meeting she had with the NSA was very brief, and it seems to be
taking the view that it should present itself as not attaching too much
importance to the situation, although the evidence clearly indicates the
contrary. Buddy also reports that at least some NSA members are looking
for a way to have her declared insane and committed to an institution.
I believe Shirin’s story. Although I am no expert in such matters, her
account, and even her behavior is quite consistent with that of other
sexual abuse victims I have known. I also find it very hard to believe
that a young girl would fabricate such a story, at such tremendous
personal cost, and maintain it for over three years. There is no doubt
in my mind that she is an incest victim that has been further victimized
by a corrupt criminal justice system, and a Baha’i administration that
is more concerned about its reputation than the well-being of this young
woman.
Karen Bacquet
Note: I have to be busy for the next several hours, so it may take me
some time to respond to questions and comments about this story.
***** Bahai Faith *****
How sad. Her story certainly sounds credible given the way
the NSAs have so often treated people....
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
"Karen Bacquet" <bac...@tco.net> wrote in message
news:4017E488...@tco.net...
Dermod Ryder
abusive clergy. What is striking here is that the AO has adopted exactly
the same failed tactics that so ill-served the Catholic Church - go into
denial and try to shut up the victims, in this instance by having her cast
into an institution, suggesting that she was on drugs and quite probably,
according to current plans, that she is insane.
When are these asses at the head of the AO going to realise that the only
way they are going to get any credibility is when they stop the obfuscations
and grasp the nettle of answering their critics with some semblance of
truth?
Cal E. Rollins
This is rather fascinating. And a fantastic piece of investigative
journalism which I predict will be the Rosetta Stone for much to come.
Not too long ago, on another list, I had mentioned that I heard there
was quite a bit of spousal and child abuse (I knew of two experiences
from my being on LSAs) otherwise the Universal House of Justice,
generally pretty conservative in its messages to us, would not have
written the strong letter it did condemning the practices and promising
swift justice to perpetrators. I was roundly and soundly trounced for
saying that the Baha'i Community suffered such problems.
Could Shirin's situation have prompted that letter from the Universal
House of Justice? --Cal
Sekhmet
>What is striking here is that the AO has adopted exactly
>the same failed tactics that so ill-served the Catholic Church - go into
>denial and try to shut up the victims, in this instance by having her cast
>into an institution, suggesting that she was on drugs and quite probably,
>according to current plans, that she is insane.
Um, according to Karen's post wasn't it the _family_ that put her in the
institution, etc.?
Not that I'm excusing the NSA (wherever it is); if this story is even 1/4 true
there's a big problem there.
--Sekhmet
Cal E. Rollins
David Kay, the UK guy who told our Congressional Hearing this morning
that there was no evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, also
said that one of the basic problems with governments and religions was
their inability to solve problems because of their closedness. I
couldn't believe what I was hearing on CNN this morning, because such
has been much of the criticism of our administration throughout the
years. There must be a new spirit of truth manifest throughout the
Planet Earth. --Cal
Karen Bacquet
> Could Shirin's situation have prompted that letter from the Universal
> House of Justice? --Cal
Dear Cal,
I doubt it -- this case first broke in 2000, and the administration has
not responded in such a way that suggests the victim's claim was
believed. I think I'm familiar with the letter you are talking about,
though -- but I can't find it in the Baha'i library at the moment. The
only one I can find is the one that says parental consent for marriage
can be waived in cases of childhood abuse. However, there was another
that addressed sexual abuse in general, and had a paragraph on incest,
in particular.
That's the thing: In theory, perpetrators are condemned and victims are
sympathized with, but when there's a real live case, that's not what
happens. The accused here is a prominent, well-respected, wealthy,
outwardly-pious Baha'i man -- and my take on it is that the response was
simply "He couldn't have done it".
Actually the second most common factor in families where sexual abuse
occurs is pronounced religiosity. (The first is alcoholism.)
Another aspect is that this family is very powerful in the community
therre. Besides Daddy, there were two other family members on the NSA
when the kidnapping occurred. (One is still there, in fact.)
Personally, I think a good deal of the inital push to get "Shirin" to go
back home to her father came from the family -- an effort which Baha'i
administrators initially sympathized. Not only were there efforts by
Baha'i officials themselves, but the family hired a psychiatrist that,
after an interview of a few minutes joined the chorus to send her home.
This doctor, after only seeing her a few times, wrote her a letter
saying he could no longer treat her because the family kept pressuring
him.
She now has another doctor, who has been very supportive -- although, he
too apparently has been under pressure from family members and Baha'i
administrators to breach professional confidentiality in her case. One
NSA member tried to convince the girl to abandon her therapy, claiming
that psychiatrists are "old world order" and encourage immorality -- and
said he was only doing it for the sake of his career and the notoriety
of the case.
Shirin played a tape of that conversation, and the shrink about popped a
gasket, saying he had been treating her at reduced rates when he did get
paid, and isn't even getting paid any more. Anyway, this doctor seems
like a good man, and I hope he will be able to intervene if there is any
further attempt to institutionalize her. One aspect where Shirin is
lucky is that she is getting long-term therapy -- a lot of abuse victims
don't.
But this family is a real piece of work -- even the House realizes that
they have contributed a great deal to this mess. But it also keeps
emphasizing "healing" -- there is no "healing" in a family where incest
occurs. You can't just pour a bunch of warm fuzzies over this and make
it go away. This girl wants her family out of her life, and maybe
there's a chance where she can achieve individual healing -- and even
that's going to be a long, hard road. But putting the emphasis on
healing the family as a whole is pious stupidity.
Committing incest is like murder -- the victims I've known (and I'm
talking about long-term incest here, not a single incident) are just
destroyed. Now, experts say that most go on to live normal lives, but I
personally haven't seen it in those that I've known for a long period of
time. "Shirin" has some pluses on her side -- she's intelligent,
educated, and has a supportive therapist committed to helping her work
through this. But what this crime does to the minds and hearts of the
victms is just beyond description.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
>
Steve Marshall
this case some months back:
kia kaha,
Steve
Randy Burns
"Sekhmet" <sekhm...@aol.com.nz> wrote in message
news:20040128152204...@mb-m26.aol.com...
>
> Um, according to Karen's post wasn't it the _family_ that put her in the
> institution, etc.?
> Not that I'm excusing the NSA (wherever it is); if this story is even 1/4
true
> there's a big problem there.
Well, since Karen has added that three family members were on the NSA at the
time, then I dont think there is much difference between the family and the
NSA. I have to side with Dermod here that where institutions adopt secrecy
and obedience as their modes of operation people can expect the worst to
happen if not sooner, than certainly later. And when you add the lack of
proper oversite and control there is really no hope for redemption.
A tragic story that was bound to happen and will happen again and again
unless something is done.
Cheers, Randy
Karen Bacquet
Sekhmet wrote:
> Dermod wrote:
>
>>What is striking here is that the AO has adopted exactly
>>the same failed tactics that so ill-served the Catholic Church - go into
>>denial and try to shut up the victims, in this instance by having her cast
>>into an institution, suggesting that she was on drugs and quite probably,
>>according to current plans, that she is insane.
>
>
> Um, according to Karen's post wasn't it the _family_ that put her in the
> institution, etc.?
Dear Sekhmet,
Yes, it was. Shirin was told by her grandmother that it was her
parents' decision -- and the rest of the family just supported it.
Where the parallel to clerical abuse comes in is the use of religious
authority to maintain the victim's silence. This is a cradle Baha'i,
brought up to revere and obey the UHJ. And the Counsellors told her
that the House of Justice itself wanted her to go home to her abuser.
Now, I don't know if that was, in fact, the UHJ's direction -- I hope it
wasn't. The evidence I have suggests that the House is maintaining a
distance from this case, giving mostly general instructions and letting
the Counsellors and NSA deal with it. Things are such a mess in that
country that I keep expecting more direct intervention -- however, that
hasn't happened yet.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Cal E. Rollins
Yes, one of the victims of child incest that I know of has never
forgiven her father, is totally dysfunctional, and is just recovering
from intense therapy. You can imagine how she feels about the Faith and
about the Baha'is who supported her abuse at the time. --Cal
Karen Bacquet
Steve Marshall wrote:
> Good on you, Karen. I recall that you were working on what sounds like
> this case some months back:
Dear Steve,
Yep, that was it. I've been dealing with this case, at times completely
immersed in it, since last March. It's been a long, and at times,
emotionally trying thing to deal with. It's kind of a relief to go
public with it now. And I'm hoping some good will come of it, that
there will be further education in the community on this issue.
I mean, it is like abuse ABC's: The first thing you do is believe the
victim. If the administration had done that, then they wouldn't be in
this mess. They should have, when confronted with a case this serious,
got themselves educated on the issue a bit, before decided that she was
wrong and the father innocent. Of course, the situation is exacerbated
by the lack of a competent criminal justice system. But, to be fair, it
is only in the last twenty years that our own has become more aware of
abuse issues and sympathetic to its victims. Now, even our local
sheriff's office has a cop specially trained to deal with rape and abuse.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Dermod Ryder
> >What is striking here is that the AO has adopted exactly
> >the same failed tactics that so ill-served the Catholic Church - go into
> >denial and try to shut up the victims, in this instance by having her
cast
> >into an institution, suggesting that she was on drugs and quite probably,
> >according to current plans, that she is insane.
>
> Um, according to Karen's post wasn't it the _family_ that put her in the
> institution, etc.?
A family with member(s) on the NSA.and a Counsellor trying to put her
friends off seeking her out and securing her release. Yeah! Tell me another
one!
> Not that I'm excusing the NSA (wherever it is); if this story is even 1/4
true
> there's a big problem there.
And it's not just there! It's just about everywhere you look in the AO
where the rule is "Fuck the victim just so long as de faith emerges smelling
of roses!" But as every rose grower knows - one foot from the rose is a
pile of well rotted shite.
I have seen and experienced at first hand what may be called the Zargarov
technique where a victim was "fitted up" for a crime and convicted before he
even heard what the charges were. He was disciplined before he was even
told what he was supposed to have done. This is exactly the same
scenario/technique - a member of the AO is in the shit and the rest of the
AO circles its wagons to protect him.
This is a particularly sick example of the extent and depth of depravity to
which the AO will sink. Words totally fail me on this - spiritually
corrosive though I be, the very thought that anybody could abuse my
daughters actually raises an urge to do violence to an abuser, not that I
actually would, given we have specialist police who well know how to deal
with scumbags like that. The thought that the AO will not only not help
this girl but will actually try to persecute her and drive her back to the
abuser absolutely defies belief. And these are the bastards who define the
Gang of Four as malevolent. They should but won't hang with shame.
>
> --Sekhmet
Karen Bacquet
> cast
>
>>>into an institution, suggesting that she was on drugs and quite probably,
>>>according to current plans, that she is insane.
>>
>>Um, according to Karen's post wasn't it the _family_ that put her in the
>>institution, etc.?
>
>
> A family with member(s) on the NSA.and a Counsellor trying to put her
> friends off seeking her out and securing her release. Yeah! Tell me another
> one!
The victim is particularly angry with this Counsellor -- she is
convinced that this woman knew where she was all the time, and that her
silence prolonged her stay "in that horrible place." This is the same
person who told her she should have never been released -- that her
family was right and she was wrong. The fact that "Shirin" complained
about the Counsellors was held against her. You can get away with
sleeping with your daughter, but God forbid that you ever gripe about
mistreatment by a Baha'i official!
Karen Bacquet
>
>
> Well, since Karen has added that three family members were on the NSA at the
> time, then I dont think there is much difference between the family and the
> NSA.
Dear Randy,
This is quite correct. According to "Shirin", they used to meet at her
home and make Baha'i policy, separate from other NSA members. They
would even discuss who they wanted to get elected. My reaction, when I
found out about some of this stuff was "Holy geez! They're running the
Faith like a damn Mafia!" However, there is also some resentment of
this family's dominence. What Buddy has told me is that there is a
"pro-Persian" faction allied with the family, and a "pro-native" faction
who wants them out of power. One reason this case has been dragged out
so long is that there is some in-fighting going on. And, as I said,
the House has become aware that this family has contributed to the mess,
and has tried to undermine other members of the NSA. So, this abuse
case is very tied up with politics and power struggles.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Dermod Ryder
"Randy Burns" <randy....@gte.net> wrote in message
news:_CVRb.155$pk1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Well, since Karen has added that three family members were on the NSA at
the
> time, then I dont think there is much difference between the family and
the
> NSA.
One of those delighful anachronisms of the Old World Order dictates that in
any judicial or legislative process, anybody with a vested interest declares
it and withdraws from deliberations. How can you have a fair and equitable
system if the accused and members of the family sit on the adjudicating
tribunal?
> I have to side with Dermod here that where institutions adopt secrecy
> and obedience as their modes of operation people can expect the worst to
> happen if not sooner, than certainly later. And when you add the lack of
> proper oversite and control there is really no hope for redemption.
>
> A tragic story that was bound to happen and will happen again and again
> unless something is done.
And Rod's favourite theme of lack of due process is more than relevant.
Cal E. Rollins
Well it seems to me that when Nima was telling the list some of this
stuff, people poo-pooed him. All of a sudden Shirin is now some kind of
saint and truth-teller, or what? Why should we be surprised that Baha'i
administrators are any different from the rest of the world's folk?
--Cal
Cal E. Rollins
You are totally correct. And David Kay said the same thing this morning
about secrecy and closedness being the downfall of religions. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
It sounds like the country is either America, Iran, or Australia. Am I
warm? --Cal
Dermod Ryder
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17225-40...@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
> Karen,
>
> It sounds like the country is either America, Iran, or Australia. Am I
> warm? --Cal
Have you got your heating switched on?
Karen Bacquet
Cal, if I wanted to reveal where in the world this is happening, I would
have done so. However, I already said this happened in the developing
world -- a Third World country, in other words. Iran hasn't had an NSA
for years. So, you're stone cold.
Karen
Freethought110
By Karen Bacquet <bac...@tco.net>:
Randy Burns
Randy
--
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17222-40...@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
Dermod Ryder
> I mean, it is like abuse ABC's: The first thing you do is believe the
> victim. If the administration had done that, then they wouldn't be in
> this mess. They should have, when confronted with a case this serious,
> got themselves educated on the issue a bit, before decided that she was
> wrong and the father innocent.
I'm not so sure that one automatically believes the alleged victim. However
I am absolutely positive that one does not disbelieve the alleged victim.
The proper course lies in between - that any allegation of this kind be
seriously treated and properly investigated. When the AO gets caught it
claims it is embryonic yet this flaw never seems to be apparent at the onset
of a problem. In this instance it has been shamelessly abused to cover up a
serious allegation; to protect the abuser and hound the victim. I'm moved
to believe the victim in this case largely on account of her persistence,
which speaks of truth and the actions of her family which tried to shut her
up, which demonstrate that there is something bad that needs to be covered
up.
>Of course, the situation is exacerbated
> by the lack of a competent criminal justice system. But, to be fair, it
> is only in the last twenty years that our own has become more aware of
> abuse issues and sympathetic to its victims. Now, even our local
> sheriff's office has a cop specially trained to deal with rape and abuse.
We have a number of specialist police units which deal with rape and child
abuse in Norn Iren. And certainly they did not exist not so many years ago
but society progresses and this bad old secular non-theocratic one is
prepared to move and improve. The AO still hasn't learnt that its best
protection is honesty.
Karen Bacquet
>
>
> I'm not so sure that one automatically believes the alleged victim. However
> I am absolutely positive that one does not disbelieve the alleged victim.
> The proper course lies in between - that any allegation of this kind be
> seriously treated and properly investigated.
Dear Dermod,
Perhaps I should have said "Believe the victim, but keep your head." Or
maybe your way of putting it is better. Certainly, it is possible to go
off the deep end and have the kind of hysteria we had in the U.S. in
some day care centers. In the educational system, the mere accusation
of inappropriate touching pretty much spells the end of a teacher's
career -- sometimes unjustly. But a teacher is a very different sort of
person than a parent. A teacher is an authority figure that a child may
not like very much, and is temporary in a child's life. They may get
mad and decide to take revenge, or for the attention, or any number of
reasons. Yet, the system is so concerned about it, that they won't take
the risk of it being true, even when it isn't.
However, a parent is critical to a child's well-being and sense of self.
I have a hard time believing that there are very many cases of
children accusing a natural parent of coercing them into sexual acts,
when it isn't true. In fact, it is more likely that the child will keep
it secret, out of a mixture of love and fear. I know of one little boy
who was absolutely crushed when his father didn't return his wave, when
they were in a courtroom and his father was a trial for sexually abusing
all three of his sisters, and physically abusing all the children in the
family. To the rest of the world, this man was the most despicable of
scumbags; to this little boy he was still Daddy.
When the AO gets caught it
> claims it is embryonic yet this flaw never seems to be apparent at the onset
> of a problem. In this instance it has been shamelessly abused to cover up a
> serious allegation; to protect the abuser and hound the victim. I'm moved
> to believe the victim in this case largely on account of her persistence,
> which speaks of truth and the actions of her family which tried to shut her
> up, which demonstrate that there is something bad that needs to be covered
> up.
There are several aspects that make her credible: She isn't a small
child that can be influenced by others into telling a story without
really understanding its implications; she has, as you point out, told a
consistent story over a long period of time; she has alienated everyone
in her family and her religious community, which is a high price to pay
for a fabrication; she was placed in a drug rehab facility when she
clearly was not, and is not a drug addict -- which strongly points to
another motive for her incarceration.
And I can't even imagine a motive for her to invent such a story. Every
motive I can think of has far less costly alternatives to achieve the
same end.
In any case of a sexual crime, there is always the possibility of it not
being true -- but in this case I think the odds are so small that it
hardly counts as a possibility at all.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Dermod Ryder
> > I'm not so sure that one automatically believes the alleged victim.
However
> > I am absolutely positive that one does not disbelieve the alleged
victim.
> > The proper course lies in between - that any allegation of this kind be
> > seriously treated and properly investigated.
>
> Dear Dermod,
>
> Perhaps I should have said "Believe the victim, but keep your head." Or
> maybe your way of putting it is better. Certainly, it is possible to go
> off the deep end and have the kind of hysteria we had in the U.S. in
> some day care centers. In the educational system, the mere accusation
> of inappropriate touching pretty much spells the end of a teacher's
> career -- sometimes unjustly. But a teacher is a very different sort of
> person than a parent. A teacher is an authority figure that a child may
> not like very much, and is temporary in a child's life.
But sometimes and especially with small children the teacher is a comfort
figure. There is a boy in Doodlebug's class who always comes over to hug me
when I happen to be there. He's autistic but very affectionate. The
teacher always tries to restrain him by following the instructions he has to
shake hands and say "Hello!" and I'm trying to play ball with this. We have
had this politically correct mania about child abuse for many years now with
some absolutely horrendous scandals where the social workers and other
professionals were pursuing less sexual or other abuse than their own
politically correct agenda of insisting that, despite the evidence, there is
a pandemicof abuse throughout the land. Fear is being infused into
everybody - children, that every adult is out to harm them and adults, that
if they so much as greet a child, they will be hauled up for abuse.
I was involved in a child abuse case where the professionals believed the
child (who said he wasn't being hit) and disbelieved responsible adult
witnesses who said he was, even to the point that he was threatened with a
beating if he told the social worker. On one of the few occasions that has
left me lost for language, a witness described to me how she did not see the
blow but heard it, as a fist was smashed by an adult into a 7 year old
child.
> They may get
> mad and decide to take revenge, or for the attention, or any number of
> reasons. Yet, the system is so concerned about it, that they won't take
> the risk of it being true, even when it isn't.
That's the type of bullshit I hate so much. Unfortunately today most of the
so-called professionals are full of it. Not so long ago one agreed with my
statement that what they proposed to do was take a procedure that worked and
"fuck it up rightly" with the type of petty rules that can only emerge from
the politically correct morons that want to run everything.
> However, a parent is critical to a child's well-being and sense of self.
> I have a hard time believing that there are very many cases of
> children accusing a natural parent of coercing them into sexual acts,
> when it isn't true. In fact, it is more likely that the child will keep
> it secret, out of a mixture of love and fear. I know of one little boy
> who was absolutely crushed when his father didn't return his wave, when
> they were in a courtroom and his father was a trial for sexually abusing
> all three of his sisters, and physically abusing all the children in the
> family. To the rest of the world, this man was the most despicable of
> scumbags; to this little boy he was still Daddy.
That's the sad bit! Abuse is horrendous - there really can be no excuse for
it.
My eldest used to "threaten" to report me to Childline (a helpline for
abused kids in the UK) when I wouldn't let her get her own way. The
response was instant and always stopped her in her tracks "Go right ahead
but remember, you'll wind up with worse than me if you do ... you'll wind up
with a social worker!"
> There are several aspects that make her credible: She isn't a small
> child that can be influenced by others into telling a story without
> really understanding its implications; she has, as you point out, told a
> consistent story over a long period of time; she has alienated everyone
> in her family and her religious community, which is a high price to pay
> for a fabrication; she was placed in a drug rehab facility when she
> clearly was not, and is not a drug addict -- which strongly points to
> another motive for her incarceration.
>
> And I can't even imagine a motive for her to invent such a story. Every
> motive I can think of has far less costly alternatives to achieve the
> same end.
>
> In any case of a sexual crime, there is always the possibility of it not
> being true -- but in this case I think the odds are so small that it
> hardly counts as a possibility at all.
Shirin suffered much before and since reporting this - IMHO this alone is
convincing evidence of her honesty. Buddy has stuck by and fought for her -
that is also pretty convincing. But at the end of the day no child
alienates him/herself from the entire family unless there is some
substantial reason. No child from a good home would bear false witness
against good parents. And nobody in their right mind would try to force her
to return home unless and until the whole circumstance had been thoroughly
investigated.
Yek Irani
YI
Starr*
> Karen,
>
> It sounds like the country is either America, Iran, or Australia. Am I
> warm? --Cal
In a LSA here in Australia we had a mature educated male dedicated
believer from Pakistan who came to live here asking/pleading for help
about the injustice he and his family was receiving under the NSA
from which he came. He had a large file of information regarding his
case and the decisions. Our NSA rebuked his plea for assistance in
decisions and told him to uphold the decisions of his former NSA
irregardless of the information he supplied. Needless to say the man
cried in his disappointment and great anguish and said he thought he
was coming to a country where the NSA was willing to look at his
plight and apply justice. His story outlined cruel barbaric treatment
and complete lack of understanding of any of the principles put out in
Baha'i teachings. Sadly, the Australian AO backed up the barbaric
application stance from Pakistan.
Starr*
Karen Bacquet
>
> But sometimes and especially with small children the teacher is a comfort
> figure.
Well, sure, with little kids. I find myself amazed at kids that I only
taught for a couple of days who will come up and hug me, or say "Hey,
there's our sub! That's Ms. Bo!"
he has to
> shake hands and say "Hello!" and I'm trying to play ball with this. We have
> had this politically correct mania about child abuse for many years now with
> some absolutely horrendous scandals where the social workers and other
> professionals were pursuing less sexual or other abuse than their own
> politically correct agenda of insisting that, despite the evidence, there is
> a pandemicof abuse throughout the land. Fear is being infused into
> everybody - children, that every adult is out to harm them and adults, that
> if they so much as greet a child, they will be hauled up for abuse.
Yes. In Trevor's preschool class there was a little girl who wouldn't
so much as greet nice little old ladies in the grocery store, because
they are "strangers". And her mom bragged about it! They did a
"stranger danger" program in the preschool, because it was housed in a
church that was currently doing a charitable thing, with a lot of
"undesirable" types hanging around. At age 4, the whole thing was just
vaguely frightening and confusing to Trevor. I talked to him about it,
and asked him what a stranger was. He said "An alligator". (The teacher
had read a little book on the subject, where the bad guy was an
alligator.) Then, I tried to explain, and suddenly his eyes opened wide
and he said "What if a stranger came in the house and, and, and . . " he
drew a great big breath,"... hit Mama!" And that was, clearly, the
worst danger he could think of from a bad guy.
I had a long talk with the preschool teacher. In my opinion all this
fear doesn't make children, especially small children, one bit safer.
If a grown man wants to grab a four-year-old, he can scoop him up and
have him in the car without any effort. Education like that is more
useful for school-aged children, who run around on their own more -- and
have more capacity to understand the threat, and how to defend
themselves to some degree.
>
> I was involved in a child abuse case where the professionals believed the
> child (who said he wasn't being hit) and disbelieved responsible adult
> witnesses who said he was, even to the point that he was threatened with a
> beating if he told the social worker. On one of the few occasions that has
> left me lost for language, a witness described to me how she did not see the
> blow but heard it, as a fist was smashed by an adult into a 7 year old
> child.
Yes -- that's a tough one, the possibility, or even likelihood, that a
child is being intimidated into silence. Grandma always thought that
kids should just be taken away and put in a foster home while the
investigation was going on, because she'd seen that happen. But two
problems with that: one being lack of foster homes; the other being the
trauma of being taken away from parents is something that shouldn't
happen without reason. Of course, then you've got the flip side of
social workers unduly influencing a child into saying something is wrong
when there isn't. With very small children, it can be really tough to
get the truth out.
>
>
>>However, a parent is critical to a child's well-being and sense of self.
>> I have a hard time believing that there are very many cases of
>>children accusing a natural parent of coercing them into sexual acts,
>>when it isn't true. In fact, it is more likely that the child will keep
>>it secret, out of a mixture of love and fear. I know of one little boy
>>who was absolutely crushed when his father didn't return his wave, when
>>they were in a courtroom and his father was a trial for sexually abusing
>>all three of his sisters, and physically abusing all the children in the
>>family. To the rest of the world, this man was the most despicable of
>>scumbags; to this little boy he was still Daddy.
>
>
> That's the sad bit! Abuse is horrendous - there really can be no excuse for
> it.
And the effects are devestating. This boy grew up and is now in prison.
One of his sisters, the one who reported being "Daddy's favorite",
became a prostitute. That case was one of the sickest -- and one of the
few where there was actually a conviction.
>
> My eldest used to "threaten" to report me to Childline (a helpline for
> abused kids in the UK) when I wouldn't let her get her own way. The
> response was instant and always stopped her in her tracks "Go right ahead
> but remember, you'll wind up with worse than me if you do ... you'll wind up
> with a social worker!"
*shudder* My line, stolen from Grandma, is that at home, you only have
your parents to answer to. In a foster home, you have foster parents, a
judge, and a probation officer, and possibly even more scary and
rule-bound civil servants to answer to.
> Shirin suffered much before and since reporting this - IMHO this alone is
> convincing evidence of her honesty. Buddy has stuck by and fought for her -
> that is also pretty convincing. But at the end of the day no child
> alienates him/herself from the entire family unless there is some
> substantial reason. No child from a good home would bear false witness
> against good parents.
Yes, that was my thought -- her very behavior indicates something deeply
wrong in that home.
And nobody in their right mind would try to force her
> to return home unless and until the whole circumstance had been thoroughly
> investigated.
Exactly. And there is no reason to try to force an 18-year-old college
student to go home at all. The fact that they were so insistent on that
is quite suspicious. One Counsellor even tried to trick Shirin into
meeting with her father. Not having the competence to investigate the
charge of incest is forgivable -- few religious organizations would.
But this push to get them all back as one big happy family, when this
kind of accusation is being made is either incredibly naive stupidity,
or calculated effort at cover-up. In either case, the intervention only
made the situation worse.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
>
>
Susan Maneck
>true
>there's a big problem there.
>
Dear Sekhmet,
Definitely. But a large part of the problem appears to be cultural. From
Karen's story it seems that the police took pretty much the same attitude as
the NSA! It sounds like the House of Justice was trying to do something
stronger, however.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Susan Maneck
>that the House of Justice itself wanted her to go home to her abuser.
Dear Karen,
I would have told them to 'get it in writing' but granted I'm not an Iranian
girl.
>UHJ's direction -- I hope it
>wasn't. The evidence I have suggests that the House is maintaining a
>distance from this case, giving mostly general instructions and letting
>the Counsellors and NSA deal with it.
It is a difficult situation for the House to be in. They are getting
information from their NSA and their Counsellors both of whom, as you suggest,
may not be disinterested. But the House does seem to be giving at least some
credibility to this girl's story or they would not have removed her father from
the NSA or paid for her therapy. But I'm sure there is a lot of going back and
forth on the highest levels to decide what should be done. And if the House is
receiving disinformation from senior institutions figuring out what really
happened could be difficult.
>Things are such a mess in that
>country that I keep expecting more direct intervention -- however, that
>hasn't happened yet.
From your description Karen, it sounds like the country is in at least as big a
mess as the Baha'i community there. My guess is that the two situations are
connected. This doesn't sound like a culture which treats sexual abuse all that
seriously.
MrMojoMan
"Yek Irani" <YekI...@ee.net> wrote in message
news:CybSb.61$up2...@news.ee.net...
Susan Maneck
>> Could Shirin's situation have prompted that letter from the Universal
>> House of Justice? --Cal
No, that was in response to an American Baha'i who spoke of being subjected to
ritual abuse by her parents as I recall.
Karen wrote:
>and the administration has
>not responded in such a way that suggests the victim's claim was
>believed.
It sounds like the NSA or the Counsellors migh tnot have believed her, or
worse taken the attitude it wasn't that bad. . But the fact the House removed
this person from the NSA and paid for her therapy suggests to me that they
found her case at least credible if not proven.
>That's the thing: In theory, perpetrators are condemned and victims are
>sympathized with, but when there's a real live case, that's not what
>happens.
>The accused here is a prominent, well-respected, wealthy,
>outwardly-pious Baha'i man -- and my take on it is that the response was
>simply "He couldn't have done it".
Are we really talking about what happens in the Baha'i Administration generally
or arre we infact talking about what happens in a particular culture where you
can't even get the police to care?
> even the House realizes that
>they have contributed a great deal to this mess. But it also keeps
>emphasizing "healing" -- there is no "healing" in a family where incest
>occurs.
Have you seen the House correspondence?
Susan Maneck
>I am absolutely positive that one does not disbelieve the alleged victim.
>The proper course lies in between - that any allegation of this kind be
>seriously treated and properly investigated.
Dear Dermod,
It strikes me that the House was attempting to do precisely that. A rather
difficult thing to do if the members of the senior institutions in that country
are not disinterested.
Susan Maneck
>children accusing a natural parent of coercing them into sexual acts,
>when it isn't true.
Dear Karen,
The cases I've seen where this did happened usually involved custody disputes.
I know of cases where the mother persuaded a child she was abused. But that
dynamic doesn't seem involved here.
warmest, Susan
Susan Maneck
>technique where a victim was "fitted up" for a crime and convicted before he
>even heard what the charges were.
I'm glad you know what you're talking about, Dermod. Before any action was
taken against this guy, the Counsellor asked him his side of the story.
>He was disciplined before he was even
>told what he was supposed to have done.
Not true.
Susan Maneck
>about the Counsellors was held against her.
Held against her by whom?
Susan Maneck
>world -- a Third World country, in other words.
I'm guessing Thailand. That's the country that takes sexual abuse the most
lightly.
Susan Maneck
>application stance from Pakistan.
What can one NSA possibly do about the actions of another?
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>And the Counsellors told her
>>that the House of Justice itself wanted her to go home to her abuser.
>
>
> Dear Karen,
>
> I would have told them to 'get it in writing' but granted I'm not an Iranian
> girl.
Dear Susan,
Or even just an 18-year-old girl who'd been through a harrowing ordeal.
But the amazing thing is, that she stood up to them, and refused to go
home.
>
>
>>UHJ's direction -- I hope it
>>wasn't. The evidence I have suggests that the House is maintaining a
>>distance from this case, giving mostly general instructions and letting
>>the Counsellors and NSA deal with it.
>
>
> It is a difficult situation for the House to be in. They are getting
> information from their NSA and their Counsellors both of whom, as you suggest,
> may not be disinterested. But the House does seem to be giving at least some
> credibility to this girl's story or they would not have removed her father from
> the NSA or paid for her therapy.
Possibly. As I said, Daddy's removal from office was not a sanction,
because he was re-elected last spring. (And "Shirin" was quite
devastated by that, too.) The information I have is that the House is
telling him to lay low until his "family problems" are resolved. And the
family was scolded both for keeping this case before the eyes of the
community, and for undermining other people in the administration.
As far as paying for the therapy -- that was my first reaction, too;
that is was pretty decent of them to do that. However, when I found out
that there was pressure on the psychiatrists to give information on her,
I wasn't so sure about that. Then one of the Counsellors started
complaining about the cost, and an NSA member tried to convince "Shirin"
that her shrink was a bad guy, and she should quit therapy.
The House's emphasis on healing for the family as a whole is being
interpeted on the ground level as getting this girl to forgive and
forget. What she wants, is indeed desperate to have, is to get her
family out of her life. I, indeed, was quite surprised when I found out
her demands. I thought all along that she'd want her father punished,
and her own name cleared. But what she asked for was protection.
And that's basically what I'm trying to give her by telling her story
now, and by telling it in a fashion where only people familiar with this
case will know who and where she is. She's going public, which places
her at risk from those whose reputations are at stake. But if they know
that an American woman can spread the word about this case, and any
disappearance or incarceration, all over the world, it may give them
pause before doing anything to her. I haven't named names yet, but I can
and I will -- and I have the girl's written permission in her own
handwriting to do it. But by not doing a regular news story, I am
leaving them something to lose by hurting her. That takes priority over
doing an expose.
I'd take it to Amnesty International or other human rights groups if
it went that far. It isn't much, but it's really all I can do for her.
As far as the UHJ's attitude, to expect healing for that family is just
foolish, and sexual abuse is more than just a "private family
difficulty", and I find it very disturbing that the House is treating it
as such.
But I'm sure there is a lot of going back and
> forth on the highest levels to decide what should be done. And if the House is
> receiving disinformation from senior institutions figuring out what really
> happened could be difficult.
The House has openly said that it cannot follow the details of the case
-- and that has cut both ways. When Shirin presented her demands, it
pretty much told the NSA "You're on your own, guys." The impact of the
publicity will, of course, fall on NSA members, and the Counsellors
connected with the case. I don't think anyone involved really got what
they wanted from the House.
However, by not intervening, the House has left Shirin at the mercy of
people who I don't believe have her best interests at heart. The ITC
has taken a much harder line, seeing this girl more as a manipulative
potential blackmailer than a victim. There is a difference in attitude
between the different levels of administration -- and the NSA itself is
far from united about it. Sometimes I haven't been sure if the division
is real, or if there is some "good cop, bad cop" game being played here.
However, they *all* express concerns about the impact this story has
had, and potentially can have, on the reputation of the Faith. They
basically just want it all to go away. But that has backfired. By
failing to adequately address Shirin's fears about her family, or even
to believe that she was abused, they have let themselves in for the very
bad publicity they feared. Shirin is a girl who is trying to be heard.
Just the fact I believed her was very, very important to her.
>
>
>>Things are such a mess in that
>>country that I keep expecting more direct intervention -- however, that
>>hasn't happened yet.
>
>
> From your description Karen, it sounds like the country is in at least as big a
> mess as the Baha'i community there. My guess is that the two situations are
> connected. This doesn't sound like a culture which treats sexual abuse all that
> seriously.
Well, as I said, Susan, we didn't take sexual abuse all that seriously
in this country until about 20 years ago. Buddy told me that in his
country "Even the good people can be bought, and most of them aren't
that good." If a sexual abuse case arose here, the obviously right
thing would be to go to the authorities. In a poor country, there
aren't any authorities to go to. They didn't even prosecute for the
kidnapping, which is something far easier to prove than the abuse.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Karen Bacquet
>
>>That's the thing: In theory, perpetrators are condemned and victims are
>>sympathized with, but when there's a real live case, that's not what
>>happens.
>>The accused here is a prominent, well-respected, wealthy,
>>outwardly-pious Baha'i man -- and my take on it is that the response was
>>simply "He couldn't have done it".
>
>
> Are we really talking about what happens in the Baha'i Administration generally
> or arre we infact talking about what happens in a particular culture where you
> can't even get the police to care?
Well, we aren't talking about a single culture. This girl and her
family are Iranian; the country is another culture. So, I think it's a
Baha'i thing, at least in that country. Remember, "Shirin's" friend
Buddy is not a Baha'i, and a part of the surrounding culture, and he is
appalled by how this has been handled.
>
>
>>even the House realizes that
>>they have contributed a great deal to this mess. But it also keeps
>>emphasizing "healing" -- there is no "healing" in a family where incest
>>occurs.
>
>
> Have you seen the House correspondence?
Susan, at this point I'm not going to reveal precisely what pieces of
evidence I have, because there are still sources that must be protected.
So it's "You might think so, but I couldn't possibly comment."
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>I have a hard time believing that there are very many cases of
>>children accusing a natural parent of coercing them into sexual acts,
>>when it isn't true.
>
>
> Dear Karen,
>
> The cases I've seen where this did happened usually involved custody disputes.
> I know of cases where the mother persuaded a child she was abused. But that
> dynamic doesn't seem involved here.
Yes, I'd forgotten about that scenario -- that does happen, especially
with younger children. But no, her parents are not divorced and she's
too old for custody to be an issue.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>The fact that "Shirin" complained
>>about the Counsellors was held against her.
>
>
> Held against her by whom?
The ITC.
Susan Maneck
>> Held against her by whom?
>
>The ITC.
Dear Karen,
How do you know this? The ITC doesn't write to individuals.
warmest, Susan
Susan Maneck
>
>Yes, I'd forgotten about that scenario --
Dear Karen,
There are also 'false memory' scenario often involving therapists who use
questionable techniques. But it sounds as though this girl's charges came
before any therapy.
Susan Maneck
>Well, we aren't talking about a single culture. This girl and her
>family are Iranian; the country is another culture.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that both culture didn't carry the same attitudes
towards this kind of thing. In the Persian case, such things are simply not
taken out of the family. Since you are not revealing the country involved it is
hard to assess the other culture. But the fact that the police acted as they
did is certainly suggestive.
>Remember, "Shirin's" friend
>Buddy is not a Baha'i, and a part of the surrounding culture, and he is
>appalled by how this has been handled.
But the police weren't.
>
>> Have you seen the House correspondence?
>
>Susan, at this point I'm not going to reveal precisely what pieces of
>evidence I have
Well, I certainly have to see the correspondence involved before I made any
assessment of what the House of Justice supposedly said about healing.
But so far the major difference I see between the two assault cases is that one
occurred in the US which considers anything sexual assault when permission is
not explicitly given, and a third world country that tends to look the other
way when it's all in the family.
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>>Held against her by whom?
>>
>>The ITC.
>
>
> Dear Karen,
>
> How do you know this? The ITC doesn't write to individuals.
I have some quite remarkable sources of information and evidence for
this case.
Karen
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>Well, we aren't talking about a single culture. This girl and her
>>family are Iranian; the country is another culture.
>
>
> Yeah, but that doesn't mean that both culture didn't carry the same attitudes
> towards this kind of thing. In the Persian case, such things are simply not
> taken out of the family.
Well, I was wondering about if maybe that was why they were so set on
bringing her home -- that it might be a cultural attitude about how
family matters are to be handled. But the Counsellor that helped cover
up the kidnapping was not Persian.
Since you are not revealing the country involved it is
> hard to assess the other culture. But the fact that the police acted as they
> did is certainly suggestive.
Obviously, I'm neither confirming or denying any guesses in that direction.
>>>Have you seen the House correspondence?
>>
>>Susan, at this point I'm not going to reveal precisely what pieces of
>>evidence I have
>
>
> Well, I certainly have to see the correspondence involved before I made any
> assessment of what the House of Justice supposedly said about healing.
I thought as much, but right now I'm just going to have to let you have
your reservations.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Susan Maneck
> But the amazing thing is, that she stood up to them, and refused to go
>home.
Dear Karen,
Not so amazing if you have reason to fear abuse. I dug in my heels at 15 when
the Baha'is asked me to go back home and I had reason to believe it wasn't
safe.
>Possibly. As I said, Daddy's removal from office was not a sanction,
>because he was re-elected last spring.
And then immediately removed. The House would not have done that if they were
persuaded of his innocence. On the other hand they would have done more than
simply remove him from the NSA if they knew for sure he was guilty. My guess is
that this is a stop-gap measure until the case is resolved.
>(And "Shirin" was quite
>devastated by that, too.)
It certainly says something about the community she lives in.
> And the
>family was scolded both for keeping this case before the eyes of the
>community, and for undermining other people in the administration.
I think I'm missing some key information with that last phrase. How was the
family undermining people in the administration?
>As far as paying for the therapy -- that was my first reaction, too;
>that is was pretty decent of them to do that. However, when I found out
>that there was pressure on the psychiatrists to give information on her,
>I wasn't so sure about that.
I'll tell you what I'm guessing is going on here. The House can't be sure who
is telling the truth. Whether the girl was assaulted or she made the story up,
she needs therapy. But I'm guessing that part of the reason they wanted this
therapy is because it might help ascertain the truth in the matter. Not all
countries have the same rules regarding confidentiality and that might not have
figured into the equation as far as the Institutions were concerned. If you
have court-ordered therapy for instance, there is no expectation of
confidentiality.
>The House's emphasis on healing for the family as a whole is being
>interpeted on the ground level as getting this girl to forgive and
>forget.
That's why I wanted to see the letter. I really doubt if that is what the House
meant.
>What she wants, is indeed desperate to have, is to get her
>family out of her life.
That's fine for the girl, Karen. But if this guy really is an abuser then it is
important he be treated as well. When something like this happens there is an
entire family system that needs treatment, surely you are aware of that. This
is how I would read the House letter. And that's not to say her father
shouldn't be punished as well.
>As far as the UHJ's attitude, to expect healing for that family is just
>foolish, and sexual abuse is more than just a "private family
>difficulty",
Did they call it that?
>and I find it very disturbing that the House is treating it
>as such.
Without seeing the House's letter I'm not persuaded that is what they are
doing.
The ITC
>has taken a much harder line, seeing this girl more as a manipulative
>potential blackmailer than a victim.
Again, I'd like to know what your evidence for this is. As far as I know it is
not up for the ITC to take stands on things like this.
>
>Well, as I said, Susan, we didn't take sexual abuse all that seriously
>in this country until about 20 years ago.
Exactly. And I think therein lies the problem.
Susan Maneck
>Well, I was wondering about if maybe that was why they were so set on
>bringing her home -- that it might be a cultural attitude about how
>family matters are to be handled.
Dear Karen,
Yes, it is. Persians make a very sharp distinction between what belongs on the
private versus the public sphere. That's no help to a girl afraid for her
safety.
>But the Counsellor that helped cover
>up the kidnapping was not Persian.
And if that is what she did, it's a real problem.
Starr*
> >Sadly, the Australian AO backed up the barbaric
> >application stance from Pakistan.
>
> What can one NSA possibly do about the actions of another?
A lot when a man's family is in the balance - like review the material
and send it on to uhj if necessary instead of telling him to drop dead
in so many words and exhortations (that is if it was upholding justice
and the right to appeal)
Starr*
Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040129011652...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> >'m not so sure that one automatically believes the alleged victim.
However
> >I am absolutely positive that one does not disbelieve the alleged victim.
> >The proper course lies in between - that any allegation of this kind be
> >seriously treated and properly investigated.
>
> Dear Dermod,
>
> It strikes me that the House was attempting to do precisely that. A rather
> difficult thing to do if the members of the senior institutions in that
country
> are not disinterested.
At this juncture I'll not comment on what exactly the House was doing, or
giving the impression of doing, in this particular case, other then to
reiterate my general point that all actions by the House are motivated,
primarily, by a need to protect the good name of the faith.
I'm not at all surprised that it is getting conflicting information. That
is the natural consequence of its policy of driving out any independently
minded persons and appointing sycophants to positions whilst tolerating and
initiating in at least one important instance, what can only be termed as
abuse of the electoral process.
So long as there is no problem, any idiot can run an organisation but
problems require independently minded people of ability to deal adequately
with them. In this instance the standard procedure was put into effect
without any thought as to its short or long term implications. Those who
are obsessed with the malevolence of their critics become blinded by their
own omniscience. That's when cock-ups happen!
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>Or even just an 18-year-old girl who'd been through a harrowing ordeal.
>> But the amazing thing is, that she stood up to them, and refused to go
>>home.
>
>
> Dear Karen,
>
> Not so amazing if you have reason to fear abuse. I dug in my heels at 15 when
> the Baha'is asked me to go back home and I had reason to believe it wasn't
> safe.
Dear Susan,
True. And I feel that the fact that Shirin "dug in her heels" like that
strongly points to her credibility.
>
>>(And "Shirin" was quite
>>devastated by that, too.)
>
>
> It certainly says something about the community she lives in.
What I've been told is that the family has done a great deal to try to
discredit her.
>
>
>>And the
>>family was scolded both for keeping this case before the eyes of the
>>community, and for undermining other people in the administration.
>
>
> I think I'm missing some key information with that last phrase. How was the
> family undermining people in the administration?
I don't know a lot of specifics, but that's the word I have. As I noted
in another post, there's a lot of infighting going on.
>>What she wants, is indeed desperate to have, is to get her
>>family out of her life.
>
>
> That's fine for the girl, Karen. But if this guy really is an abuser then it is
> important he be treated as well. When something like this happens there is an
> entire family system that needs treatment, surely you are aware of that. This
> is how I would read the House letter. And that's not to say her father
> shouldn't be punished as well.
Yes, I know. The whole family needs treatment -- but they aren't
getting it. It would mean an admission that something is wrong. One
alarming aspect, to me, is that "Shirin" has a younger sister, who is
now just about the same age she was when she began being abused. As far
as I'm concerned, little sister is at tremendous risk -- abusers don't
stop abusing as long as they get away with it. The first step is
admission of the problem and taking responsibility for it. You know that.
>
>
>>As far as the UHJ's attitude, to expect healing for that family is just
>>foolish, and sexual abuse is more than just a "private family
>>difficulty",
>
>
> Did they call it that?
That's the word I have.
>
>
>>and I find it very disturbing that the House is treating it
>>as such.
>
>
> Without seeing the House's letter I'm not persuaded that is what they are
> doing.
>
> The ITC
>
>>has taken a much harder line, seeing this girl more as a manipulative
>>potential blackmailer than a victim.
>
>
> Again, I'd like to know what your evidence for this is. As far as I know it is
> not up for the ITC to take stands on things like this.
Again, I'm just going to have to let you have your doubts, because I'm
not going to get specific on my evidence right now. I have said enough
that the Institutions will be persuaded I have some, which is my aim at
the moment, more than convincing you. They have to know I'm for real,
if my efforts are going to have any effect on protecting this girl.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Karen Bacquet
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>Well, I was wondering about if maybe that was why they were so set on
>>bringing her home -- that it might be a cultural attitude about how
>>family matters are to be handled.
>
>
> Dear Karen,
>
> Yes, it is. Persians make a very sharp distinction between what belongs on the
> private versus the public sphere. That's no help to a girl afraid for her
> safety.
Dear Susan,
Yet the most touching letters of sympathy for "Shirin's" plight that I
have received this morning have been from Persians.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Jeffrey
comment on how this thread is so devoid of facts--- it consists mostly of
conclusory allegations, innuendo, and a great deal of speculation. This is
so typical of what goes on in this forum.
If there is a real story here related to the Baha'i Faith, then why not just
tell it. Explain all of the facts so that everybody does not have to
speculate. If you cannot explain the facts, then shut up! Otherwise it is
an empty exercise in defamation and nobody should give it any credence at
all.
Jeffrey
"Karen Bacquet" <bac...@tco.net> wrote in message
news:4017E488...@tco.net...
> This is a situation that I’ve been acquainted with since March of last
> year. After long consideration of how to publish it, I have, in the
> end, opted to tell the tale with identities disguised.
>
> “Shirin” is a young Baha’i woman of Iranian descent, living in a country
> in the developing world. Her father was, at the time this story began,
> Chairman of the NSA in that country. I have called her non-Baha’i
> friend “Buddy”, rather than give him a name that would indicate ethnicity.
>
> Shirin claims that her father forced her into an incestuous relationship
> from the time she was 13 years old. At 18, in the year 2000, she ran
> away, but he found her again, and again made advances. She told him
> that if he didn’t stop, she would publicly accuse him. He then
> threatened to institutionalize her. Frightened by this accusation, and
> desperate to stop the abuse, she made a videotape telling her story.
>
> The next day, Shirin disappeared.
>
> Her friends found this videotape and began asking questions about where
> she was, and eventually staged public protests demanding to know her
> whereabouts. Shirin’s disappearance was widely publicized; the story
> appeared in at least two newspapers, and appeared nightly on t.v. while
> she was gone -- and she and her family gave an interview after she
> reappeared. Her friend Buddy was at the forefront of efforts to find
> her, and he reports that a Continental Counsellor told him that it was
> none of his business where she was, and discouraged her friends from
> seeking her. At one point, it was claimed that she had gone to another
> country. This person is no longer a Counsellor, but has been on the
> special commission set up to deal with the case, and is currently on the
> NSA, so I cannot tell if her removal from office was as a result of
> mishandling the initial crisis, or not.
>
> Shirin told me that her grandmother phoned her and asked her to come
> over, reporting a family emergency, but when she arrived, her father was
> there with armed men, falsely claiming to be policemen, who accused her
> of being involved with drugs. She was taken to a drug rehab facility,
> and kept there for over two weeks. A drug test was taken, which proved
> negative. Shirin told me that the conditions there were crowded and
> unhygienic, and I have evidence that this facility has been involved in
> at least one other kidnapping.
>
> Then, the police arrived at the facility, and asked her if she was there
> against her will. While they were willing to release her, they were
> generally unsympathetic, and she described her experience with them as
> “another hell”. A forensic examination was done on her, as well as
> another drug test. However, one of the cops scolded her for her
> accusations, saying that even if he abused her, she should stay silent
> because “he’s still your dad.” The district attorney refused to
> prosecute the case, citing lack of evidence.
>
> According to Shirin, two Baha’i Counsellors, and an NSA member who
> headed up the special commission set up to deal with her case tried to
> persuade her to return to her father’s home. It was this aspect, more
> than anything, that convinced me to take up this case. I was utterly
> horrified and appalled. No decent human being, on hearing a young girl
> accuse her father of sexually abusing her, would essentially tell her to
> shut up and go home. At best, this reveals a profound ignorance
> concerning the realities of incest, and at worst, a callous disregard
> for Shirin’s safety.
>
> I asked why they were so set on her going home, she was, after all, 18
> and in college, and an age at which young people often begin living on
> their own. She said that the only reason they gave was that the
> Universal House of Justice wanted it. Shirin resisted this pressure,
> and continues to live on her own, but complains of harassment from her
> family, and that they have done everything they can to blacken her name
> in the Baha’i community.
>
> The Baha’i administration seems to have had three concerns: that no
> more bad publicity about the Baha’i Faith occur because of this case,
> that Shirin be reconciled with her family and the Baha’i community, and
> that she be able to move on with her life after this incident.
> Strangely, they blame her for the publicity that occurred while she was
> locked away. During the period last spring while I was in contact with
> Buddy and Shirin, a Counsellor and NSA members were still trying to get
> her to forgive her family. I have been told of two NSA members who
> appear to be willing to believe the charges of abuse -- and that was
> only after long exposure to the case and the behavior of this family.
> (One of them, after telling Shirin that she believed she was abused, was
> removed from the special commission and forbidden to have contact with
> her.) Nothing in the evidence indicates that her accusation against her
> father was at all taken seriously by the NSA as a whole or the UHJ.
>
> The UHJ has taken a distant attitude, regarding it primarily as a
> private family difficulty. The only action taken against Shirin’s
> father was that he was asked to resign from the NSA. This, apparently,
> was not intended as a sanction, because he was again elected in 2003,
> and the UHJ asked him to resign again. Haifa also provided funds for
> Shirin’s psychotherapy, for at least a year, and possibly longer. I was
> told that this had ended by last summer, and her doctor continues to
> treat her pro bono.
>
> In March of last year, Buddy contacted me, at first asking questions
> about Baha’i administrative procedure. As time went on I agreed to help
> in publicizing the case.
>
> I was only in contact with Shirin through a handful of emails, but I was
> in continuous contact with Buddy through most of the spring and summer
> of 2003, and again during these past few weeks. My impression of
> Shirin is that she was bright and articulate, although angry and
> frightened. Shirin constantly spoke of her need for justice, even
> begging me to seek it on her behalf if her family kidnapped her again,
> or killed her. The impression that Buddy gave was conflicting: He
> would depict her as vulnerable, depressed and anxious, and unable to
> cope with stress. Yet, when he reported her actions, I saw someone with
> tremendous strength -- Shirin was able to resist the pressures from her
> family, from numerous highly-placed Baha’i officials, and to go before
> the NSA with a list of demands in her hand. I don’t think I’ve ever
> seen anyone stand up to the administration in the way this young girl
> has. Experts in sexual abuse say that victims seldom lie about what
> they experienced, especially over a sustained period of time. Her
> psychiatrist reports that she is making excellent progress in her
> therapy, and is performing at the top of her class at University.
>
> Besides helping Shirin in her quest for justice, I felt that publicity
> would be a kind of protection for her -- that her family would not dare
> hurt her in any way, if they knew that I would broadcast any
> disappearance far and wide. It was largely publicity that got her
> released from the drug rehab center in the first place, and I thought
> publicity would serve as a way of ensuring that nothing further would
> happen along these lines. I was quite frank in my opinion that the
> possibility that she would get any substantial action from the Baha’i
> institutions was remote. I couldn’t guarantee her justice; I could only
> promise that the injustice with which she was treated would not remain
> unknown.
>
> I’ll state here publicly that, even now, if Shirin is again forcibly
> institutionalized or she should disappear or any harm come to her, I
> will place all evidence I have on this case on my website.
>
> It is only right that the Baha’i institutions should take a strong stand
> against child sexual abuse, and avoid even the appearance of
> countenancing such a horrible crime, and it was in protest against their
> lack of action, and the pressures they were placing on Shirin, that I
> intended to publicize the case.
>
> While preparing for the article, I continually emphasized the need for
> solid evidence, and was given a great deal of material. Aside from
> collecting evidence for my article, Shirin put her efforts into
> recording conversations that would reveal the wrongdoing on the part of
> her father, family, and Baha’i officials. This was entirely her idea,
> although I sympathize with this desperate attempt, on the part of a
> powerless person, to be heard and taken seriously. I should make it
> clear, here, that my role was primarily supportive, and I left all major
> decisions in her hands. My view is, that when you are dealing with
> someone struggling with a feeling of powerlessness, that you must try to
> give them a sense of confidence and control. I explicitly asked Shirin
> what she wanted, what “justice” would mean to her, and told her that I
> would not do anything that she didn’t want me to do.
>
> A little over a week ago, Buddy sent me an urgent message saying that
> Shirin was preparing to confront the NSA with her collection of tapes.
>
> Shirin went to the NSA with a list of demands that are basically
> calculated to force the NSA to keep her family away from her, including
> what amounts to a restraining order, and financial arrangements that
> would make the NSA the middle-man between Shirin and her father. She
> told them she had audio tapes of her conversations with the Counsellors,
> NSA members, and her family members, and implied that they would be
> released to the media if action was not taken. From what I’ve been told
> of their contents, these audio tapes can be used to both to prove the
> abuse, and the mishandling of her case by Baha’i officials.
>
> Both Shirin and Buddy seem to have quite exaggerated expectations about
> what the NSA could do for her. The NSA cannot guarantee that her family
> would stay away from her; they are not a police force. The Baha’i Faith
> is a religious organization that only has control over the membership
> status of adherents; these kids are treating it as if it were a civil
> court. Her mistake, in my opinion, is in naively believing that taking
> her complaint through Baha’i channels, as Baha’is are exhorted to do,
> will somehow result in justice. Buddy is clearly confused by the
> administration’s charge of blackmail. In his mind, Shirin has simply
> brought evidence to a body empowered to make a decision. But through
> the broken English in his emails reporting on their response, I am
> already seeing the familiar terminology of Baha’i denial, where
> “ill-intentioned persons” are simply trying to bring the Faith into
> disrepute out of inexplicable malice.
>
> Shirin particularly wanted me to say that she loves the Baha’i Faith,
> and Baha’u’llah, but that her family and NSA have done such terribly
> wrong things to her that she must speak out about what has happened.
>
> The current situation is that Shirin is planning to release her story to
> the media within the next few days, and the NSA working out its own
> strategy, which involves a legal complaint against Shirin, and getting
> other NSAs to write letters of support to this country’s government. The
> position of the Faith is somewhat precarious, and the government could
> simply dissolve the Assembly in the wake of a scandal such as this. The
> last meeting she had with the NSA was very brief, and it seems to be
> taking the view that it should present itself as not attaching too much
> importance to the situation, although the evidence clearly indicates the
> contrary. Buddy also reports that at least some NSA members are looking
> for a way to have her declared insane and committed to an institution.
>
> I believe Shirin’s story. Although I am no expert in such matters, her
> account, and even her behavior is quite consistent with that of other
> sexual abuse victims I have known. I also find it very hard to believe
> that a young girl would fabricate such a story, at such tremendous
> personal cost, and maintain it for over three years. There is no doubt
> in my mind that she is an incest victim that has been further victimized
> by a corrupt criminal justice system, and a Baha’i administration that
> is more concerned about its reputation than the well-being of this young
> woman.
>
> Karen Bacquet
>
> Note: I have to be busy for the next several hours, so it may take me
> some time to respond to questions and comments about this story.
>
Karen Bacquet
>
>
> I'll tell you what I'm guessing is going on here. The House can't be sure who
> is telling the truth. Whether the girl was assaulted or she made the story up,
> she needs therapy. But I'm guessing that part of the reason they wanted this
> therapy is because it might help ascertain the truth in the matter. Not all
> countries have the same rules regarding confidentiality and that might not have
> figured into the equation as far as the Institutions were concerned. If you
> have court-ordered therapy for instance, there is no expectation of
> confidentiality.
Dear Susan,
According to Shirin, her psychiatrist has promised confidentiality. I
don't think he was hired as a forensic psychologist. If he was, he
wouldn't be complaining to her about being pressured to give information.
Karen Bacquet
>
>>interpeted on the ground level as getting this girl to forgive and
>>forget.
>
>
> That's why I wanted to see the letter. I really doubt if that is what the House
> meant.
There seems to be a difference in attitude between the House and the
Counsellors. What I don't know is if this is deliberate distancing,
allowing the House to remain the "good cop", or if the Counsellors just
plain aren't doing things the way the House expects them to.
The strongest common thread in this, from top to bottom, is the concern
over the Faith's reputation. However, they are even willing to risk
that rather than give in to Shirin's demands for protection, which they
regard as "blackmail". Of course, doing so would be a virtual admission
of guilt -- that there is something in those tapes to be feared. So,
reputation may be an aspect of the decision, even there. They may have
just decided that it's better in the long run to take what comes, and
spin the situation to the media.
>
>
>>What she wants, is indeed desperate to have, is to get her
>>family out of her life.
>
>
> That's fine for the girl, Karen. But if this guy really is an abuser then it is
> important he be treated as well.
Thinking about that, Susan -- yes, of course it would be better for the
whole family to be treated. But I see no indication that this is being
recommended.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
Karen Bacquet
> If there is a real story here related to the Baha'i Faith, then why not just
> tell it. Explain all of the facts so that everybody does not have to
> speculate. If you cannot explain the facts, then shut up! Otherwise it is
> an empty exercise in defamation and nobody should give it any credence at
> all.
I have already explained my reasons for my approach. If you're too
dense to get it, then that's not my problem. I am not at all concerned
with whether or not you believe me, but with protecting this young
woman. The way I've laid it out, the administration will know I have
solid material on this case -- and if the girl remains safe, I have no
plans to release it. I'm certainly not going to do so in reaction to
taunting newsgroup posts.
And the most futile of endeavors on an unmoderated newsgroup is telling
anyone to "Shut up". What's your problem? Mad that we're talking about
something other than the Guardianship for five minutes?
Dermod Ryder
"Jeffrey" <con...@truebahai.com> wrote in message
news:fcaSb.18$eQ2....@news.uswest.net...
> Even as I oppose the administration of the bogus UHJ, I cannot help but
> comment on how this thread is so devoid of facts--- it consists mostly of
> conclusory allegations, innuendo, and a great deal of speculation. This
is
> so typical of what goes on in this forum.
Excluding, of course the twisted logic and extra terrestrial reasons
scattered about here by supporters of the Third Guardian.
> If there is a real story here related to the Baha'i Faith, then why not
just
> tell it. Explain all of the facts so that everybody does not have to
> speculate. If you cannot explain the facts, then shut up! Otherwise it
is
> an empty exercise in defamation and nobody should give it any credence at
> all.
There is a real story here. You've heard it - though obviously not all of
it, for it is ongoing. If you haven't heard it, then you have a few loose
connections somewhere that need attention ... badly. Karen does not make
things up - she is most careful in that respect. Her primary concern is
Shirin's well-being. It has been made clear that certain people do not
share that concern and would rather Shirin were further incarcerated in
order to shut her up and spare further blushes. I don't think that's a
particularly nice thing to do. What's your take on it?
Now if we could bring the Third Guardian into this story just to keep you
happy, I'm sure we'd all try. Sadly we can't because he just isn't
relevant.
Paul Hammond
> "Randy Burns" <randy....@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:_CVRb.155$pk1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > Well, since Karen has added that three family members were on the NSA at
> the
> > time, then I dont think there is much difference between the family and
> the
> > NSA.
>
> One of those delighful anachronisms of the Old World Order dictates that in
> any judicial or legislative process, anybody with a vested interest declares
> it and withdraws from deliberations. How can you have a fair and equitable
> system if the accused and members of the family sit on the adjudicating
> tribunal?
>
Yes - as recent news has reminded us, Lord Hutton was involved
in over-ruling a decision made by the Law Lords to
extradite Pinochet to Spain because one of the Lords
failed to mention the fact that he wa a member of
Amnesty International, and the ruling was that this
was a material interest in the case, and the judge
in question should have recused himself.
Now, I think this is taking the principle to an extreme,
but it is clearly a sound principle that any person with
a material interest in the case should not be involved
in judging it - clearly, for example, people who are
Guiness shareholders should not be involved in
a trial of the directors of that company for fraud.
> > I have to side with Dermod here that where institutions adopt secrecy
> > and obedience as their modes of operation people can expect the worst to
> > happen if not sooner, than certainly later. And when you add the lack of
> > proper oversite and control there is really no hope for redemption.
> >
> > A tragic story that was bound to happen and will happen again and again
> > unless something is done.
>
> And Rod's favourite theme of lack of due process is more than relevant.
Well, the procedures have to be set up well in advance, in
peaceful times, so that when a crisis does come up, there
can be no question that what was done was ad hoc and
tailor made to bring a result that somebody in power
wanted in advance.
Paul
Paul Hammond
>
>
> That's the sad bit! Abuse is horrendous - there really can be no excuse for
> it.
>
> My eldest used to "threaten" to report me to Childline (a helpline for
> abused kids in the UK) when I wouldn't let her get her own way. The
> response was instant and always stopped her in her tracks "Go right ahead
> but remember, you'll wind up with worse than me if you do ... you'll wind up
> with a social worker!"
>
Childline is a confidential helpline, somewhat like a junior
version of Samaritans.
I'm not entirely familiar with the rules for Childline,
but assuming they would be similar to Samaritans, the
rules would not allow volunteers at Childline to inform
third parties about what the children are telling them,
unless the child herself asks them to.
I imagine that most of what callers talk about to
Childline is lower level stuff, like bullying at
school, and pressure of exams, fights with
siblings and parents and so on. Should a caller
report abuse, my guess is that they would encourage
the child to tell a parent, trusted family member,
school-teacher, or the police, or offer to contact
some authority on their behalf.
Not an expert on Childline, but for the Sams, if
someone decided to take an overdose on the line, and
insisted that the volunteer taking the call should
*not* call an ambulance, the volunteer is supposed
to respect the wishes of the caller.
Paul
Paul Hammond
> > I have a hard time believing that there are very many cases of
> >children accusing a natural parent of coercing them into sexual acts,
> >when it isn't true.
>
> Dear Karen,
>
> The cases I've seen where this did happened usually involved custody disputes.
> I know of cases where the mother persuaded a child she was abused. But that
> dynamic doesn't seem involved here.
>
>
The usual distinction here is that young children that *have* been
abused know how to describe, or show with dolls exactly what
has happened to them.
Children who haven't been abused, but are fantasising will
be vague on the details.
Paul
Jeffrey
I understand of course the need for confidentiality to protect a victim.
What I find objectionable is the telling of half the story so that people
have to speculate about how their UHJ did or did not victimize this young
woman. It seems unfair to me to try to protect the victim with
confidentiality while at the same time telling part of the story in order to
attack back. It might be better not to tell the story at all. Certainly
telling half the story does not protect the victim. It only serves to
attack the alleged offenders. If I were one of the Baha'i authorities
involved, and who must himself keep these matters private, I would be peeved
that the story is being told but I cannot defend myself and tell my side of
the story. If the UHJ really did engage in the behavior asserted, this is
certainly a big story. It would show just how bankrupt this organization
has become. However, I find it less than credible. Thats my take on it.
Jeffrey
"Dermod Ryder" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bvbh7e$pv03e$1...@ID-84503.news.uni-berlin.de...
Karen Bacquet
>>
>>And Rod's favourite theme of lack of due process is more than relevant.
>
>
> Well, the procedures have to be set up well in advance, in
> peaceful times, so that when a crisis does come up, there
> can be no question that what was done was ad hoc and
> tailor made to bring a result that somebody in power
> wanted in advance.
Dear Paul,
That's the key thing -- without established procedures, the
administration is simply not prepared to deal with a crisis like this.
How something is handled just depends on who happens to be there at the
time. Right off the bat, you had a Counsellor telling this girl's
friends to go away and mind their own business. That was the first
Baha'i involvement in the case -- outside the girl's family, of course.
Well, that isn't very smart. She had suddenly disappeared, leaving this
video accusing her father of abuse. Her friends didn't know if she was
dead or alive. I'm not sure a Counsellor should have been running
around saying anything, at that point. But she's saying that Shirin is
fine, she's gone to another country, that the accusations in the video
aren't true. How the heck does she know they aren't true? Nobody even
knows where Shirin is, much less has done an investigation of the
allegations.
Then, when she's released, you have this big push to send her home --
which is *not* what you do in an abuse case. A separation of alleged
victim and family is a darn good idea, while you try to find out what
really happened. Even if the accusation turns out to be false, a
cooling-off period of separation can be healthy.
So, instead of having rational and established procedures, everybody
just reacts to the problem by trying to make it go away i.e. shut the
girl up so she stops making her inconvenient accusations. It doesn't
sound like it even entered anybody's head, in the immediate aftermath,
what the consequences would be if she was telling the truth, and she
went back to her abuser.
The Baha'i administration is so disdainful of due process and
procedures, preferring the flexibility of "consultation". But, if there
had been procedures, they wouldn't be in this mess. If they had even
just turned the case over to the police, it would have been an
improvement. Shirin wouldn't have got any action against her father,
but at least she wouldn't have felt so betrayed and angry towards the
Baha'i administration.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
>
> Paul
Dermod Ryder
> Excuse me for posting on a topic other than the Third Guardian.
OK! We 're feeling generous.
>
> I understand of course the need for confidentiality to protect a victim.
> What I find objectionable is the telling of half the story so that people
> have to speculate about how their UHJ did or did not victimize this young
> woman. It seems unfair to me to try to protect the victim with
> confidentiality while at the same time telling part of the story in order
to
> attack back.
Neither the victim nor the officials of the AO have been identified - and
according to one commentator the House is being uninformed as to the true
story due to a conflict of interest. Should it wish to be informed it ought
not go for these incestuous appointments; if it wishes that situations not
arise where the good name of de faith is concerned, it ought to appoint
independent and capable persons to responsible positions. That is the
lesson apparent here as it is in every single incident of AO
maladministration reported here and elsewhere.
>It might be better not to tell the story at all. Certainly
> telling half the story does not protect the victim. It only serves to
> attack the alleged offenders.
And protect the victim from further depredation by letting her abusers know
that they face sure and certain retribution.
>If I were one of the Baha'i authorities
> involved, and who must himself keep these matters private, I would be
peeved
> that the story is being told but I cannot defend myself and tell my side
of
> the story.
Now doesn't that make a pleasant change. You might not have seen instances
where victims of AO maladministration never got the chance to tell their
side of the story - I have!
> If the UHJ really did engage in the behavior asserted, this is
> certainly a big story.
It, or its representatives, did and it is. Once involved the House becomes
responsible - it cannot sit back and do a Pontius Pilate. It must take
steps to inform itself even if that means sending an independent
investigator to the scene with power to interview both sides.
Starr*
Also Jeffery, you might consider that the author is a believer in the
Haifian
tradition, although not enrolled. She is simply highlighting where the
system fails it's members - which in the long run can develop the
Haifan system. Also, to release documentation has legal implications I
would think. So of course this is not the forum for that
documentation; but that is not to say that she should not voice the
plight of Shirin in trying to deal with the institution and the kind
of abuses she has suffered. If people don't understand what kind of
things are happening to people how can they improve the system they
believe in?
Look how hard it is to discern the truth of matters in the Kelly
affair, in spite of all the documentation, let alone in a Baha'i
ordeal. Look at how the masses are willing to overlook your Baha'i
documentation. Shirin Ebadi takes up the plight of the underdog in her
country - and it has made a difference; in like manner the author here
is trying to do the same - it might even win her awards at the end of
the day - thought that may not be the objective. It is healthy that
people have a place to have their story told or the suffering and
deterioration of the system goes on and on with no growth or justice.
As a person who believes in the Haifan system the author is doing the
best thing she thinks she can to improve it for it's membership.
Starr*
Dermod Ryder
>> It is a difficult situation for the House to be in. They are getting
> information from their NSA and their Counsellors both of whom, as you
suggest,
> may not be disinterested.
And they couldn't figure this out, especially as the story just ran and ran.
> But the House does seem to be giving at least some
> credibility to this girl's story or they would not have removed her father
from
> the NSA or paid for her therapy.
It is buying time in the hope it will just go away.
> But I'm sure there is a lot of going back and
> forth on the highest levels to decide what should be done. And if the
House is
> receiving disinformation from senior institutions figuring out what really
> happened could be difficult.
It's not at all difficult. Bring in somebody from outside the country as an
independent investigator charged to see all sides of the controversey.
Sitting back and thinking or stating that it has not got the facts or is
listening to sectional interest is a cop out of the first order.
> >Things are such a mess in that
> >country that I keep expecting more direct intervention -- however, that
> >hasn't happened yet.
>
> From your description Karen, it sounds like the country is in at least as
big a
> mess as the Baha'i community there. My guess is that the two situations
are
> connected. This doesn't sound like a culture which treats sexual abuse all
that
> seriously.
That might be the case - not being familiar with the norms of that country,
I couldn't say. But I ask, does the House know and if those norms are below
its standards, if it has any, what steps has it taken to ensure that the
Bahai community there acts according to the highest standards? Has it
occurred to the House that this situation is not going to go away until it
is properly dealt with and, in as much as it has involved itself to an
extent, it has the duty to bring it to a just solution.
Karen Bacquet
>
>
> That's why I wanted to see the letter. I really doubt if that is what the House
> meant.
Dear Susan,
The following passages are from a letter I have permission to quote --
the original was given to "Shirin" herself by an NSA member, as proof
that the UHJ "loved her". It is from the Secretariat to the NSA. The
original had several annoying spelling errors, which I have corrected
because they drove me nuts.
Love, Karen
**********
"The Universal House of Justice is not in a position, from such far
distance, to follow in detail all the various complicated factors
involved in this case. Early on, it endorsed the proposal that a
committee be put in place under your National Spiritual Assembly to
assist in the matter. Further, Counselors XXXXX and XXXXX were
encouraged to try to help [Shirin], to the extent possible. However, as
has been stated in previous correspondence, the responsibility for
resolving this sad affair ultimately rest with the family itself.
Whatever financial arrangement Mr. And Mrs. XXXXXX decide to make for
their daughter is matter between them. The House of Justice does not
intend to rule on this.
As for the role of your assembly in this case, this has not changed
since our letter dated 14 March 2001 to Mr. XXXXX. The Assembly has two
concerns primarily in mind. One is to ensure that the difficulties
experienced by the XXXXXX family do not cause harm to the good name of
the Faith. The other, equally important, is to help foster the process
of healing within the family and to assist [Shirin] in organizing her
life so that she can move ahead with confidence and serenity."
Randy Burns
and justice system of this country thoroughly investigate this matter from
top to bottom and see that their countries law are followed to the letter on
this matter. Anything less is unacceptable from something which carries the
name Universal House of Justice.
Cheers, Randy
--
"Dermod Ryder" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bvc4ia$qs3l1$1...@ID-84503.news.uni-berlin.de...
Cal E. Rollins
Stone cold? Isn't Australia a part of the developing world? Maybe
India? Sounds like an NSA with lots of Persians on it. How about an
African country? I'm not up on NSAs in developing countries. Now,
Third World ones I'm better at. Thailand's got lots of Persians on
their NSA? Well, somebody is bound to tell us if you don't. It's like
the Kobe Bryant book coming out on Monday that will tell all about his
accuser. her three boyfriends, the DNA in her panties, and all the other
grusome stuff. And the trial is a year away. This information age is
awesome if not downright scarey. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Could be his son. Was Danny Kaye British, too? David is the guy who
just quit the WMD head position and left the Congress and the American
people with a bad taste in our mouths about WMD. Everybody says he's
honest and doesn't have a political ax to grind. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Yes. Remember years back when Oprah Winfrey and Rosie O'Dingaling
O'Donell said they were victims of child abuse, and it turned out they
were fantacizing? The only way to know the truth is through
investigation. --Cal
Paul Hammond
> comment on how this thread is so devoid of facts--- it consists mostly of
> conclusory allegations, innuendo, and a great deal of speculation. This is
> so typical of what goes on in this forum.
>
> If there is a real story here related to the Baha'i Faith, then why not just
> tell it. Explain all of the facts so that everybody does not have to
> speculate. If you cannot explain the facts, then shut up! Otherwise it is
> an empty exercise in defamation and nobody should give it any credence at
> all.
>
Karen doesn't make things up.
If you haven't got anything constructive to add to this
thread, and you have nothing to say about the tragic
situation this young woman has found herself in, then
perhaps it would be better if *you* would shut up.
Paul
>
>
> "Karen Bacquet" <bac...@tco.net> wrote in message
> news:4017E488...@tco.net...
> > This is a situation that I?ve been acquainted with since March of last
Cal E. Rollins
Well if the Country is in a big mess, it must be either Australia,
Pakistan, or India. We've got to figure out if Australia is developing,
though. Does Iraq have an NSA yet? It seems to be in somewhat of a
mess. --Cal
Steve Marshall
>Well it seems to me that when Nima was telling the list some of this
>stuff, people poo-pooed him.
Some of what stuff, Cal? I don't recall Nima telling the list that
about incest victims. All I recall is general "the AO is corrupt"
assertions and a few specifics such as the Dr. Berjis story. Which was
a good one - thanks for that, Nima.
If you want to defend Nima, you'll have to come up with something more
specific than "people poo-pooh(ing)" "this stuff".
cheers
Steve
Dermod Ryder
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7064-401...@storefull-3276.bay.webtv.net...
> Karen,
>
> Stone cold? Isn't Australia a part of the developing world? Maybe
> India? Sounds like an NSA with lots of Persians on it. How about an
> African country? I'm not up on NSAs in developing countries. Now,
> Third World ones I'm better at. Thailand's got lots of Persians on
> their NSA?
Let's summarise - you nominate Australia, India, an NSA with lots of
Persians, an African country, developing countries, Third World ones and
Thailand. You're geting warmer - got to firm it up a bit and tie it down a
bit more.
Dermod Ryder
> > That's fine for the girl, Karen. But if this guy really is an abuser
then it is
> > important he be treated as well.
>
> Thinking about that, Susan -- yes, of course it would be better for the
> whole family to be treated. But I see no indication that this is being
> recommended.
There is no treatment for it as far as I know. Paedophiles seem to feel no
moral compunction not to abuse children - they seem to think they have a
right to do it. In Norn Iren the only treatment within the prison system is
based on persuading them to just stay away from children and I've seen one
case where it seemed to have worked.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7064-401...@storefull-3276.bay.webtv.net...
Aw hell, Cal, you've just gone stone cold again! Try North, South, East or
West of these areas and you might get a result. I'll give you a clue - it's
not Ireland or Slobodia.
>
Dermod Ryder
> >I have seen and experienced at first hand what may be called the Zargarov
> >technique where a victim was "fitted up" for a crime and convicted before
he
> >even heard what the charges were.
>
> I'm glad you know what you're talking about, Dermod. Before any action was
> taken against this guy, the Counsellor asked him his side of the story.
There was no Counsellor involved at all in the case of which I have first
hand experience.
>
> >He was disciplined before he was even
> >told what he was supposed to have done.
> Not true.
How can you say that when you don't even know the case.?
Dermod Ryder
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.04012...@posting.google.com...
Unfortunately there have been documented cases where children were led in
questioning with the dolls into "confessing" abuse that had not happened.
Karen Bacquet
>
>
> There is no treatment for it as far as I know. Paedophiles seem to feel no
> moral compunction not to abuse children - they seem to think they have a
> right to do it. In Norn Iren the only treatment within the prison system is
> based on persuading them to just stay away from children and I've seen one
> case where it seemed to have worked.
Dear Dermod,
You are quite correct in that this is very difficult to treat -- most of
these guys don't get treatment until they are in prison. You only go
into treatment voluntarily if you think you've done something wrong, and
most of them don't. They either think they have the right to do
whatever they want, or they have some sick fantasy that this
relationship is "special" and that they are actually in love with their
daughters, which makes it all o.k.
The family as a whole -- mother, sister, etc. could sure benefit from
some therapy, though. However, the impression I've got is that the
entire family has simply reacted with anger and denial. This includes
the extended family, which seems very involved with
the whole thing -- with several members in touch with the House.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
kohli
Karen Bacquet wrote:
> This is a situation that I’ve been acquainted with since March of last
> year. After long consideration of how to publish it, I have, in the
> end, opted to tell the tale with identities disguised.
>
> “Shirin” is a young Baha’i woman of Iranian descent, living in a country
> in the developing world. Her father was, at the time this story began,
> Chairman of the NSA in that country. I have called her non-Baha’i
> friend “Buddy”, rather than give him a name that would indicate ethnicity.
>
> Shirin claims that her father forced her into an incestuous relationship
> from the time she was 13 years old. At 18, in the year 2000, she ran
> away, but he found her again, and again made advances. She told him
> that if he didn’t stop, she would publicly accuse him. He then
> threatened to institutionalize her. Frightened by this accusation, and
> desperate to stop the abuse, she made a videotape telling her story.
>
That is awful.
> The next day, Shirin disappeared.
>
> Her friends found this videotape and began asking questions about where
> she was, and eventually staged public protests demanding to know her
> whereabouts. Shirin’s disappearance was widely publicized; the story
> appeared in at least two newspapers, and appeared nightly on t.v. while
> she was gone -- and she and her family gave an interview after she
> reappeared. Her friend Buddy was at the forefront of efforts to find
> her, and he reports that a Continental Counsellor told him that it was
> none of his business where she was, and discouraged her friends from
> seeking her. At one point, it was claimed that she had gone to another
> country. This person is no longer a Counsellor, but has been on the
> special commission set up to deal with the case, and is currently on the
> NSA, so I cannot tell if her removal from office was as a result of
> mishandling the initial crisis, or not.
>
It sounds like a lot of people are aware of these charges. Is there
some reason for the concealment of identity? Maybe I need to read the
other messages in the thread.
It is also criminal, but, as you say, they don't run a police force.
> The only action taken against Shirin’s
> father was that he was asked to resign from the NSA. This, apparently,
> was not intended as a sanction, because he was again elected in 2003,
> and the UHJ asked him to resign again.
I would hope that when he is convicted of child molestation, incest,
etc. his admin rights will be suspended. In the US Baha'i convicts lose
their admin rights.
> Haifa also provided funds for
> Shirin’s psychotherapy, for at least a year, and possibly longer.
That's generous. Can't her father afford this? He should pay for it
until he is in the pokey, and then her mom should pay.
Can she go to the police?
Thanks!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Freethought110
being the spotless beacons of virtue and morality, this one seems to attract
the most sick and despicable people around. I'm telling you, the baha'is
holding the political power of a state machinery in their hands would make
the mullahs look like saints and democrats by comparison. They're not even
in power and they're corrupt fascists, vay be hal-e roozi keh be ghodrat
beresand!
"Yek Irani" <YekI...@ee.net> wrote in message
news:CybSb.61$up2...@news.ee.net...
> Come on Free jAn, there are sick people in ANY religion.
>
> YI
>
>
John R MacLeod
>
>>
> There is no treatment for it as far as I know. Paedophiles seem to feel
no
> moral compunction not to abuse children -
I'm generally not commenting on this particular case because I respect
Karen's judgement that she can not give details and without those details
there seems to be little to say beyond that everything seems to have been
horrifically mismanaged and express our sympathy to 'Shirin' and anyone else
being hurt by this..
However, as a general principle I believe it is not wise to conflate sexual
abuse of teenagers with paedophilia.
If I remember right, in this case, the abuse is alleged to have started when
the girl was thirteen - probably just after puberty. Obviously, a sexual
abuser of teenagers has much in common with true paedophiles, particularly
in that one assumes that the relationship is one that they totally dominate.
However, if we are to seriously try to prevent sexual abuse I think we have
to discard some modern wishful thinking.
There's seems to be a tendency nowadays to prolong childhood so that people
even up to twenty or older are not regarded as adults, sexually or
otherwise. From this we assume that normal adults will not be sexually
attracted to teenagers. I think this is nonsense. I would suspect that
almost all societies have seen post-puberty teenagers as at least as
sexually desirable as their seniors and a great deal of modern advertising
and entertainment is dependent on that being true.
Secondly, there seems to be an assumption that it is unnatural and even vile
to be sexually attracted to ones close kinfolk. Frankly, neither my
experience of the world or my reading have produced any evidence of this.
Now, most of us I hope would be constrained by the various taboos and
ethical considerations so as not to even contemplate an incestuous
relationship or one with a gross disparity of ages. Hopefully, most of us
have also come to terms with our own sexuality enough to be able to avoid
obsessive sexual longing.
However, when it comes to prevention and even cure we should bear in mind
that paedophilia (sexual activity with pre-puberty children) as well as
being a disgusting failure of ones morals is an unusual sexual condition.
One really is dealing with freaks in these cases. Sexual abuse of
post-pubescent children, whether incestuous or not, is an equally disgusting
moral, emotional, and spiritual failure but it does not imply aberrant
sexual desire.
I would imagine that prevention would be centred round a general
restructuring of society so that from puberty onwards people increasingly
spend most of their time and possibly even live with their own age group and
less and less time with their family members of the opposite sex. The
Baha'i Faith of course, as many other religions, teaches that you are adult
from 15. If anything this might be argued to be a year or two too late.
Still, if from about that age people stopped being in full time education,
started to earn their own money and build careers, perhaps lived in teenage
retreats near their parents homes, and generally were treated and expected
to behave as adults I suspect they would have more strength to resist
unwanted advances from anyone.
There are a heap of other advantages to treating people as adults early but
I think avoiding the hothouse emotional atmosphere of the nuclear family
when people are sexually mature is an important one.
Susan Maneck
>and send it on to uhj if necessary instead of telling him to drop dead
>in so many words and exhortations (that is if it was upholding justice
>and the right to appeal)
Starr,
What material would an NSA of one country possibly have in regards to a case in
another. If this person brought material with him it is up to him to send it on
to the House of Justice if he deems it appropriate and there is no NSA in the
world that can stop him. But you can no more appeal a decision of the Pakistani
NSA to the Australian one than you can go can to some court in Costa Rica to
appeal a case tried in Oregon.
Susan Maneck
>and justice system of this country thoroughly investigate this matter from
>top to bottom and see that their countries law are followed to the letter on
>this matter.
Do you think the House of Justice has the power to do that?
Susan Maneck
>And they couldn't figure this out, especially as the story just ran and ran.
Dermod,
They can and probably did figure out that that some of the NSA members and the
Counsellors were not disinterested. That doesn't mean they could tell who was
telling the truth or not.
>It is buying time in the hope it will just go away.
I'd read it as buying time until there is more evidence.
>
>It's not at all difficult. Bring in somebody from outside the country as an
>independent investigator charged to see all sides of the controversey.
Dermod, this may come as a shock to you but we are not police.
> But I ask, does the House know and if those norms are below
>its standards, if it has any, what steps has it taken to ensure that the
>Bahai community there acts according to the highest standards?
I don't know. Find out what the country is and ask them.
Susan Maneck
>primarily, by a need to protect the good name of the faith.
I really don't think that getting this girl therapy could expect to do anything
to protect the good name of the Faith.
>I'm not at all surprised that it is getting conflicting information. That
>is the natural consequence of its policy of driving out any independently
>minded persons and appointing sycophants to positions
Get off of it! This is the sort of thing which unfortunately tends to go on in
under-developed countries whose culture's undervalue women. I can't see that
what happened here really had all that much to do with the Faith.
Max
"Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:83b59396.04012...@posting.google.com...Crossposting to SCI
By Karen Bacquet <bac...@tco.net>:
This is a situation that Ive been acquainted with since March of last
year. After long consideration of how to publish it, I have, in the
end, opted to tell the tale with identities disguised.
Shirin is a young Bahai woman of Iranian descent, living in a
Susan Maneck
>There was no Counsellor involved at all in the case of which I have first
>hand experience.
Not so. Birkland contacted him.
>How can you say that when you don't even know the case.?
I apparently know it better than you do.
Susan Maneck
>
>Yet the most touching letters of sympathy for "Shirin's" plight that I
>have received this morning have been from Persians.
There are plenty of Persians who find such practices stifling.
Susan Maneck
>according to one commentator the House is being uninformed as to the true
>story due to a conflict of interest.
Dear Dermod,
I'm purely speculating that on the basis of the one-sided evidence which Karen
has presented.
>it ought to appoint
>independent and capable persons to responsible positions.
NSAs are elected not appointed.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >And they couldn't figure this out, especially as the story just ran and
ran.
>
> Dermod,
>
> They can and probably did figure out that that some of the NSA members and
the
> Counsellors were not disinterested. That doesn't mean they could tell who
was
> telling the truth or not.
So they just sat on their arses and left it at that. I'm surprised they
didn't just transfer a few people just to keep it all under wraps.
> >It is buying time in the hope it will just go away.
>
> I'd read it as buying time until there is more evidence.
Evidence has a nasty habit of remaining buried until somebody actively goes
and digs it up. Maybe the girl should have been sent home or whatever that
the offender could have another go .... that might provide evidence, who
knows. Or there again they could have done what Shirin did - wear a wire
and tape the proceedings. Now why could not the font of divine inspiration
.... be inspired to do something like that?
> >It's not at all difficult. Bring in somebody from outside the country as
an
> >independent investigator charged to see all sides of the controversey.
>
> Dermod, this may come as a shock to you but we are not police.
Shock! Horror! The Police are the only people who can investigate
anything!
> > But I ask, does the House know and if those norms are below
> >its standards, if it has any, what steps has it taken to ensure that the
> >Bahai community there acts according to the highest standards?
>
> I don't know. Find out what the country is and ask them.
Bugger all - in other words! Do the Grumpies respond to the spiritually
corrosive?
Dermod Ryder
> >What the UHJ should do is move heaven and earth to see to it that the
police
> >and justice system of this country thoroughly investigate this matter
from
> >top to bottom and see that their countries law are followed to the letter
on
> >this matter.
>
> Do you think the House of Justice has the power to do that?
Does it have the nerve to try?
Susan Maneck
>Yes, I know. The whole family needs treatment -- but they aren't
>getting it. It would mean an admission that something is wrong. One
>alarming aspect, to me, is that "Shirin" has a younger sister, who is
>now just about the same age she was when she began being abused. As far
>as I'm concerned, little sister is at tremendous risk -- abusers don't
>stop abusing as long as they get away with it. The first step is
>admission of the problem and taking responsibility for it. You know that.
Absolutely. And I would assume this is precisely the sort of thing that the
House of Justice is talking about when it speaks of healing.
>>>As far as the UHJ's attitude, to expect healing for that family is just
>>>foolish, and sexual abuse is more than just a "private family
>>>difficulty",
>>
>>
>> Did they call it that?
>
>That's the word I have.
Then you haven't actually seen the House correspondence?
warmest, Susan
Susan Maneck
>According to Shirin, her psychiatrist has promised confidentiality.
Dear Karen,
I'm sure he has. The question is was this the understanding the Institutions
had when they hired him?
Cal E. Rollins
De rien. It's obvious, after putting you pundits' observations
together, that the Country is Thailand. I didn't know lots of Persians
had settled there. Fantastic. --Cal
Susan Maneck
That is pretty much the kind of response I would expect when the House is in no
position to determine what really happened.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >There was no Counsellor involved at all in the case of which I have first
> >hand experience.
>
> Not so. Birkland contacted him.
It's most unlikely he was brought into this case because his name did not
come up in either the conversation or correspondence.
> >How can you say that when you don't even know the case.?
>
> I apparently know it better than you do.
I have first hand experience of it to include seeing the correspondence,
listen to insider reports and be a witness to a part of the kangaroo court
process yet you claim to know more than me. How can this be? None of us
who were there can recollect seeing a strange American lurking in the bushes
or under the table.
Might it have occurred to you that I have no first hand experience of the
Zargarov case but do have experience of a case of maladministration of
justice under the auspices of the AO and which fell within the scope of
application of the Zargarov technique? In the annals of the Zargarov case
are there reports of a dashing, ebullient, quite brilliant, unusually
charming son of Norn Iren being involved - it being univerally apparent that
said descriptor expressly excludes the Splasher and could only refer to the
Lord High Reaper S.C.? Could it be that you misinterpreted both the plain
and sub text of my message to the world? I think we should be told!
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >
> >Yet the most touching letters of sympathy for "Shirin's" plight that I
> >have received this morning have been from Persians.
>
> There are plenty of Persians who find such practices stifling.
Surely that's an understatement of some significant proportion!