China's repression in Tibet worsened in 2000 according to TCHRD
bud_s...@my-deja.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
BEIJING, Jan 6 (AFP) - Political and religious repression by the
Chinese government in Tibet increased across the board last year, an
annual report by a Tibetan rights group said Saturday.
"Political and religious freedoms faced heightened methods of control,
Tibetans endured continued arbitrary arrests and detentions and along
with unabated torture, women suffered an increase of physical
violations," a report by the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and
Democracy said.
The annual report was issued at the seat of the exiled Tibetan
government in Dharamsala, India.
Despite China's publication of a White Paper on human rights and the
signing of an agreement on rights standards with the United
Nations, "China still remains one of the few nations of the world that
institutionalizes human rights abuses," the report said.
The report documented 862 expulsions, including those of 147 nuns, from
Tibetan religious establishments in 2000, bringing the total recorded
expulsions to over 12,000 since China began to purge Tibetan
monasteries in 1996, it said.
"One of the core objectives of this campaign has been to combat the
deep devotion of the Tibetan populace to the Dalai Lama," Lobsang
Nyandak, executive director of the center, said.
Methods of control included illegal house raids, searches for banned
photos of the exiled Dalai Lama, Tibetan's most revered spiritual
leader, and punitive measures aimed at maintaining loyalty to Beijing
amongst ethnic Tibetan government employees, the report said.
The report further documented rising discrimination against ethnic
Tibetans resulting in worsening education and employment opportunities
for the native population.
More than 450 Tibetan political prisoners were in prison in Tibet, with
26 new arrests recorded in 2000 as well as the deaths of two prisoners,
it said.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Yu
bud_s...@my-deja.com wrote:
> China's repression in Tibet worsened in 2000, rights report says (AFP)
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> BEIJING, Jan 6 (AFP) - Political and religious repression by the
> Chinese government in Tibet increased across the board last year, an
> annual report by a Tibetan rights group said Saturday.
>
> "Political and religious freedoms faced heightened methods of control,
> Tibetans endured continued arbitrary arrests and detentions and along
> with unabated torture, women suffered an increase of physical
> violations," a report by the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and
> Democracy said.
I have been reading that same theme for the last 5 years.
Well what do we expect from a NED funded propaganda organ.
Other NED-CIA funded Tibet activist organizations are:
International Campaign for Tibet
Tibet Multimedia Center
Tibet Times (Newspaper)
Tibetan Review (English-language monthly news)
Tibet Voice Project
Tibet Fund
Tibetan Youth Congress
Tibet Information Network
Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO)
Water Barberian
"Yu" <yug...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93g92d$i53$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
it has been repeating the similar articles for so many times. They
even are too lazy to change the title.
bud_s...@my-deja.com
Rumour has it that since the embarassment of the escape of the Karmapa,
things have gotten worse for Tibetans in Tibet.
Yu
It seems that every year, there is a pre-Chrismas monks/nuns killing
story before the Tibet activist go on year end holidays.
This is followed by an early January realease of annual report after
their holidays.
This season they have Karmapa. Other years they other fictions.
bud_s...@my-deja.com
The escape of the Karmapa was fiction? So he's not really in India?
Anyway its not just Tibetan Committee on Human Rights, here another
report (from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch doesn't have its
2000 report out yet.)
http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/1ea7833d9a5440568
02568f200552912?OpenDocument
Amnesty International Annual Report 2000
Tibet Autonomous Region
Gross human rights violations, particularly against Tibetan Buddhists
and nationalists, continued. Hundreds of prisoners of conscience, most
of them monks and nuns, remained imprisoned. Reports persisted of
torture and ill-treatment, harsh prison conditions, and deaths in
custody. The "patriotic education" campaign intensified with further
closures of monasteries, and ill-treatment and expulsions of monks and
nuns deemed "unpatriotic".
Many Tibetan prisoners suffered health problems as a result of
inadequate food coupled with poor sanitation and long hours working in
unacceptable conditions. Many detainees were tortured and ill-treated.
Kidney and liver ailments were common as a result of kicking and
beatings by prison guards. Other forms of torture reported included the
use of electric shock batons, particularly on sensitive areas such as
the mouth or genitals; being forced into painful positions; and the use
of ankle, hand and thumb cuffs.
* In July, 16-year-old Phuntsog Legmon, a Tibetan novice monk, was
sentenced to three years' imprisonment and two years' deprivation of
political rights. The accusation - "plotting or acting to split the
country or undermine national unity" - related to an incident in March
when he and another young monk, who was also arrested, had shouted
slogans such as "Free Tibet" for several minutes in the Tibetan capital
Lhasa on the anniversary of the 1959 uprising in Tibet.
Yu
Karmapa is a real person, but his escape to "freedom" is fiction.
He is now like a bird in a cage in India.
He is just a pawn in the high stake game of fighting for the control of
milti-billion dollars Karma Kagyupa asset. (The Karmapa in this post
refers to one of the several persons who claim to be the true Karmapa)
Of course the Tibet activists never miss an oppotunity to squeeze a
little propaganda juice out of every issue.
> Anyway its not just Tibetan Committee on Human Rights, here another
> report (from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch doesn't have
its
> 2000 report out yet.)
Amnesty International worked for the British Gov.
http://www.subcontinent.com/sapra/military/m_1999_02_27.html
Amongst well-known NGOs, which in the past had allegedly been in receipt
of funds from intelligence agencies, were the Amnesty International of
the UK and the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) of Geneva.
The Amnesty International was allegedly in receipt of funds from the
Harold Wilson Government in return for its playing down allegations of
human rights violations by the British Security forces in Aden and
Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) and the ICJ was allegedly in receipt of funds
from private lawyers' organisations in the US, whose contributions to
the ICJ were re-imbursed to them by the CIA.
Following disclosures to the British media by a secretary of the
Amnesty, the Wilson Government had admitted its links with the
organisation and the CIA's alleged contributions to the ICJ through
private lawyers' organisations came to notice during the post-Watergate
enquiries into the functioning of the CIA and the FBI.
Human Right Watch is the re-incarnation of the CIA's Helsinki Watch.
If you look carefully it is more or less the same people that run the
HRIC (Human Right In China). HRIC is also a NED funded body. It is also
more or less the same team that published books like "Private life of
Chairman Mao". For example Robert Bernstein the publisher is also on the
board of HRIC and Human Right Watch.
Why are all these human right specialists instigating Mao's private
physician to make homo-sexual (baseless) allegation about Mao. Is that
Human rights?
(please also read my post "Andrew Nathan's Con Job")
If Americans are truely concern about human rights I will be very
touched.
All the dirty tricks and lies will get you no way.
*The current "Tian An Meng Papers" is cooked up by the same team.
Please read my post "Tian An Meng Papers and NED"
KL Mok
MICK BROWN
The Daily Telegraph
DHARAMSALA, INDIA
The Tibetians are one unfortunate people who seem doomed to be pawns
of China, India, the United States and of every special interest group
in between.
They can continue to fight for the return to a feudal age and a
greater Tibet which will never happen or they can get into the
mainstream of development under Chinese sovreignity. Read
[http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1718/17180040.htm ]
to get a good idea of Tibet under Chinese rule.
Once you sweep away the rhethoric the whole Tibet Independence
movement hangs on the Dalai Lama's charisma and leadership. He is
mortal and will die someday. What comes then?
_______________________________________________________
THE KARMAPA FROM TIBET
MICK BROWN
The Daily Telegraph
DHARAMSALA, INDIA
(Sunday, Jan 7, 2001)
Looking out from his window on the top floor of the Gyuto monastery in
northern India, 15-yearold Urgyen Trinley, the 17th Karmapa, has a
commanding view of the snow-capped mountains of the Himalayas. They
offer a tantalizing symbol of the freedom the young boy escaped from
Tibet to India to find, but which so far he has been denied.
The Kamapa's escape from Tibet 12 months ago captured the worlds
imagination. He had travelled 1,500 kilometres across the desolate
mountain regions of the Himalayas by road, foot, helicopter and, at
one stage, cycle-rickshaw, explaining that he had left Tibet in order
to pursue his spiritual education.
But ever since his dramatic arrival in Dharamsala, the remote northern
Indian town which is home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan community
in exile, the Karmapa has been living in conditions tantamount to
house arrest, confined in the small, previously uninhabited monastery
behind a screen of armed Indian soldiers and security guards.
Unable even to walk in the monastery grounds without permission, the
young man is said to be growing increasingly restive and suffering
from ill-health.
As leader of one of Tibetan-Buddhism's four schools, the Karma-Kagyu,
the Karmapa is believed to be an emanation of Chenresig, the Buddha of
compassion, the 17th incarnation in a line that stretches back more
than 1,000 years.
He made history in 1992 when, as an eight-yearold nomad, he became the
first person to be both recognized by the Dalai Lama and subsequently
approved by the Chinese government as a reincarnation of the Buddha.
He was enthroned in Tsurphu monastery in Tibet.
But assurances by the Chinese that he would be allowed to travel, and
that teachers living m exile in India would be allowed to visit him,
were not fulfilled.
The Karmapa also came under increasing pressure from the communist
regime to demonstrate his "patriotic" allegiance by denouncing the
Dalai Lama and publicly expressing his support for the
Chinese-selected Panchen Lama.
His escape was a massive embarrassment for the Chinese, who had hoped
to exploit Tibetans' devotion to him in order to split the Tibetan
cause and undermine the Dalai Lama.
Tibetan refugees in India are normally free to travel wherever they
wish. But confined under the Indian govemment's Foreigners Act, the
Karmapa has been allowed to make only occasional excursion to attend
religious functions and visit the Dalai Lama.
He has been refused permission to travel to Rumtek monastery in
Sikkim, where his predecessor, the 16th Kamlapa, settled after fleeing
from Tibet in 1959.
"The bird is allowed to fly for a few hours," said one Tibetan. "Then
he's shut in the cage."
Armed Indian police patrol the monastery entrance and perimeters. The
Karrnapa passes the time in his cramped quarters on the top floor of
the monastery. Twice a week he gives public blessings in the temple,
and he is able to receive a limited number of devotees in private
audiences.
Visitors, which have included the Hollywood stars Richard Gere and
Pierce Brosnan, are searched before being allowed to climb the stairs
to the audience room, where an Indian security guard usually hovers
discretly m attendance.
He is forbidden from giving interviews to journalists, but has told
devotees of his increasing frustration at his confinement.
"My main reason for coming out was to fulfil the wishes of my devotees
throughout the world, and to preserve and propagate the pure lineage
of Buddha's teachings to benefit everyone," he told one recent
visitor. "But for the moment I am unable to do this."
Since arriving in India the Karmapa has found himself entangled in a
political knot of byzantine complexity. The Indian government has
made no formal statement on the boy's official status. But there are
believed to be security concerns about his escape and his motives for
coming to India.
The Karmapa has given a full account of his escape to Indian
intelligence officials.
In a private letter written in July to a senior Indian politician, he
reiterated that his motive in coming to India was "to live in a free
country where I would not be subject to the political intrigues and
worldly aims of politicians, so that I could develop any spiritual
destiny and help all beings as a religious person."
But the Indian press has continued to speculate that his flight from
Tibet was stage-managed by the Chinese or, even more improbably, by
the CIA.
The Indian government is also said to be anxious about the possible
repercussions on its relations with China in allowing the Karmapa to
take up his seat in Rumtek. Sikkim was forcibly annexed by India in
1973 but China has never recognized India's claim over the territory.
In a personal letter written recently to the Indian, prime minister,
Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the Karmapa reportedly attempted to assuage the
fears of the Indian government.
The Dalai Lama, too, has made several representations to the Indian
government, emphasizing that the Karmapa fled to India purely for
religious teachings, and pleading for him to be given freedom to
travel.
Over 6 feet tall and powerfully built, the Karmapa cuts a commanding
figure for a 15-year-old boy. He has a powerful gaze, all the more
compelling for his left eye being slightly larger than the right. It
is said that with the large eye he sees the outer world and with the
smaller one he penetrates the inner world.
But the cramped conditions at Gyuto and the restrictions on his
movements have had a marked effect on his spirits and his health.
Visitors have noticed a palpable change from the optimistic figure who
arrived in India a year ago.
He is unable even to exercise outdoors without permission, and he has
been particularly susceptible to colds and illnesses. He was absent
from the celebrations in Dharamsala four weeks ago to mark the 50th
anniversary of the Dalai Lama's ascension to power.
Most of the Karmapa's time is spent with his teachers, engaged in a
strict regime of study and meditation. He is said to be a
particularly gifted scholar and poet.
"Learning does not mean just staying in one room," he says. "To be a
scholar and to benefit others you must have freedom. For an
individual freedom is the most important thing."
He has no companions of his own age, although his elder sister, who
escaped from Tibet shortly before him, also lives in the monastery.
Occasionally he summons a master painter of thankas (religious murals)
from a nearby Buddhist arts institute and describes his dreams, which
are interpreted and painted for posterity. The images are kept a
closely guarded secret.
He has also been fulfilling the Karmapa's traditional duty of
identifying through divinations where other newly born incarnations of
high lamas are to be found.
Despite his incarceration, the Karmapa has told visitors that he is
"still trying to think positively," and that he understands the delay
in India making any decision on his movements.
"The government of India is a big family. They have many things to
deal with, not just my situation. I am a very minor subject," he
said. "I am not thinking negatively towards anyone, and not
fulfilling my wishes does not mean they are not doing what they
should."
Tenzin Namgyal, the general secretary of the Karmapa's labrang, or
administration, believes that, if the Indian government did not intend
to grant the Karmapa asylum, it "would have turned him back
immediately."
The 15-year-old's charismatic presence and his reputed brilliance as a
scholar has led to speculation that he will assume an important role
in public life as a figurehead for the Tibetan cause in the event of
the Dalai Lama's death.
According to Tibetan Buddhist teachings, as a Bodhisattva, or
enlightened being, the Karmapa's sole purpose is said to "liberate
all sentient beings." For the moment at least that aim is beyond his
grasp.
It is", he says, "like trying to touch the sky."
KL Mok
>
>
>MICK BROWN
>The Daily Telegraph
>DHARAMSALA, INDIA
Apologies. The comment below is mine and not Mick Brown's. The
header was hung up there where I missed seeing it.
bda...@my-deja.com
TIBET - A REALITY CHECK
N. RAM writes, after a five day visit to the Tibet Autonomous Region of
China.
"The sky is turquoise, the sun is
golden,
The Dalai Lama is away from the Potala,
Making trouble in the west.
Yet Tibet's on the move.''
FOR an Indian in Tibet who has no sympathy whatsoever for the Dalai
Lama's separatist, revanchist and backward-looking agenda, this
passable adaptation of an old Tibetan song seems to fit contemporary
realities. A careful reading of the facts of the case reveals that this
ideological and political agenda, pursued essentially through external
agency, is three projects rolled into one - splitting Tibet from China,
carving out a 'Greater Tibet' through ethnic cleansing, and restoring a
moth-eaten theocracy , the ancien regime with some modest, if not quite
cosmetic, 'democratic' changes. Each one of these projects can be seen
to represent a pipe-dream, especially if one remembers that - unlike in
the case of Kashmir - there is not a single country and government in
the world that disputes the status of Tibet, that does not recognise
Tibet as part of China, that is willing to accord any kind of legal
recognition to the Dalai Lama's 'government-in-exile' based in
Dharmasala.
N. RAM
An array of apartment and office buildings in central Lhasa. The
transforming effects of modernisation are very visible in Tibet's
capital.
Yet there can be little question that there is a Tibet question, that
it has a problematical international as well as Sino-Indian dimension,
that it continues to cause concern to the political leadership and
people of China, and that it serves to confuse and divide public
opinion abroad and, to an extent, at home. This is essentially a
function of the coming together of a host of objective and subjective
factors. These are the Dalai Lama's religious charisma combined with
the iconic international status of Tibetan Buddhism; his long-
lastingness and tenacity; the ideological-political interests and
purposes he has served over four decades and more; his considerable
wealth and global investments and resources mobilised from the Tibetan
diaspora in variou s countries; the grievous cultural and human damage
done, in Tibet as much as in the rest of China, during the decade of
the 'Cultural Revolution' (1966-76); the nature of the 'independent
Tibet' movement that has rallied around the person and office of the
Dalai Lama; the links and synergies 'His Holiness' has managed to
establish with Hollywood, the media, legislators, and other influential
constituencies in the West; the plausible, yet demonstrably tendentious
and false, propaganda material generated by this anti-China and anti-
Communist campaign in the post-Cold War era; and (from an Indian
standpoint, not the least troubling aspect) the Dalai Lama's continuing
Indian base of operations.
Historically, from the second half of the thirteenth century when China
came under the Mongol Yuan dynasty founded by Kublai Khan, Tibet has
experienced the merging of religious and temporal power in a peculiar
type of theocracy. With the ascendancy of t he Gelug, or Yellow, sect
of Tibetan Buddhism, the honorific 'Dalai' (meaning 'Ocean'), conferred
on the leader of the sect by the ruler of a Mongol tribe, appears
during the Ming dynasty in the sixteenth century. Historical records
show that the institu tion of the Dalai Lama as an 'incarnate' politico-
religious supremo - recognised and indeed empowered by the Chinese
Central Government - dates back to the middle of the seventeenth
century, when the Great Fifth received a formal title and a golden seal
of authority from the Qing Emperor whom he visited in Beijing. From
that time, there have been Dalai Lamas powerful and inept, ascetic as
well as pleasure-seeking, learned as well as shallow, masterful as well
as manipulated, long-lived but also cut off in youth (possibly
poisoned) in several cases.
The fourteenth Dalai Lama, like his predecessor who was caught up in
powerful currents of history involving British imperialism, a China
undergoing big socio-political change, the ambitions of Tsarist Russia,
an India moving towards freedom, and conflict ual processes within
Tibet itself, is one of the longest lasting in the series. As the pre-
eminent Tibetan Buddhist leader, 'His Holiness' has a hold among the
faithful and a wider influence that must not be underestimated. But, as
the Chinese official v iew makes clear, given the protracted experience
of dealing with him, he cannot be treated merely, or even primarily, as
a religious leader. He is a consummate politician leading a movement
that seeks to take 'Greater Tibet' away from China - an anti-com munist
and separatist political figure masquerading as a compassionate man of
religion and 'art of happiness' guru.
''The Dalai Lama has several balls in the air at the same time,'' a
retired senior Indian diplomat who admires him observed to me recently.
Thus, 'His Holiness' has been able to maintain in a recent interview to
Time magazine (issue of July 17, 20 00): ''Let's follow the middle
path. We don't want complete independence. Beijing can manage the
economy and foreign policy, but genuine Tibetan self-rule is the best
way to preserve our culture.'' The Dalai Lama has claimed he has been
consistent in his post-1959 stand. But that has not prevented him from
running a 'government-in-exile', or accommodating an 'independent
Tibet'' movement, or sponsoring a great deal of hostile propaganda
material, or soliciting and accepting any kind of external help to
destabilise China's sovereignty or control over Tibet.
As early as September 1959, the Dalai Lama, acting against Prime
Minister Jawaharlal Nehru's specific advice, sought, unsuccessfully, to
get the United Nations to intervene in Tibet. Over the past 25 years,
following a decision taken by his 'government-i n-exile' in Dharmasala,
he has travelled extensively abroad to rally support for the
internationalisation of the Tibet question and made various 'realistic'
proposals for its 'satisfactory and just solution'. These have included
a 'Five Point Peace Plan' unfurled in a September 1987 address to
members of the U.S. Congress; the elaboration of these five points in
the so-called Strasbourg Proposal, presented in June 1988 in an address
to members of the European Parliament; the withdrawal, in March 1991, o
f his personal commitment to the ideas expressed in the Strasbourg
Proposal on the basis of the allegation that the Chinese leadership had
a ''closed and negative'' attitude to the problem; and an abrasive and
propagandistic open letter written to Deng Xiaoping in September 1992.
In all his major public pronouncements, the Dalai Lama has taken the
stand that Tibet has been an independent nation from ancient times,
that it has been a strategic 'buffer state' in the heart of Asia
guaranteeing the region' s stability, that it has never 'conceded'
its 'sovereignty' to China or any other foreign power, that China's
control over Tibet is in the nature of 'occupation' by a 'colonial'
power, and that 'the Tibetan people have never accepted' the loss
of 'our na tional sovereignty'. He has also repeatedly spoken of 'six
million Tibetans' and put forward the demand for the re-constitution of
a 'Greater Tibet' known as 'Cholka-Sum' and comprising the areas of 'U-
Tsang, Kham and Amdo'.
At the same time, the Dalai Lama has made himself out to be a moderate
and realist committed to the Buddhist 'middle path' and to non-violence
despite contra-acting tendencies among Tibetans. Thus, he has claimed
on various occasions that he is not seeki ng total independence from
China; that he is not seeking any active political role for himself
in 'future Tibet'; that he is willing to negotiate a future for Tibet
as ''a self-governing democratic political entity founded on law by
agreement of the peop le for the common good and the protection of
themselves and their environment, in association with the People's
Republic of China''; and that he might settle for full-fledged or high-
grade autonomy, with the China's Central Government having charge of me
rely defence and foreign affairs.
During a period of economic reform, opening up to the outside world and
the pursuit of socio-political stability, China's renewed interest in
arriving at an amicable settlement with the Dalai Lama and creating
reasonable conditions for him to return was framed by two major policy
statements by top leaders. In December 1978, Deng Xiaoping announced in
a media interview that ''the Dalai Lama may return, but only as a
Chinese citizen'' and that ''we have but one demand - patriotism. And
we say that anyone is welcome, whether he embraces patriotism early or
late.'' In May 1991, Prime Minister Li Peng clarified, also in a media
interview, that ''we have only one fundamental principle, namely, Tibet
is an inalienable part of China. On this fundamental issue, there is no
room for haggling... All matters except 'Tibetan independence' can be
discussed.'' But after several rounds of informal talks and contacts
with the Dalai Lama's emissaries and fact-finding delegations between
1979 and 1992 and after watching the Dalai Lama's performance on the
international stage, the Chinese Government came to a sort of tentative
conclusion by the time it held the Third National Conference on Work in
Tibet in 1994. This conclusion was that the 'Dalai clique' was
demonstrab ly insincere, that it was working overtime to separate Tibet
from China and destabilise the situation in the autonomous region in
concert with 'China's international enemies', and that its actual
demands were tantamount to independence, 'semi-independenc e'
or 'independence in disguise'.
What is clear to any objective observer is the following. In his
political role, the Dalai Lama has performed like a confidence
trickster whose utterances and actions spring from a practised
repertoire of misrepresentations, half-truths, and demon strable
falsehoods about the facts of the case.
A FIVE DAY visit to the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) in July 2000
provided me a rare journalistic opportunity to attempt some reality
testing of Dharmasala's main campaign themes. In psychology and
psychoanalysis, reality testing is the technique of objective
evaluation of an emotion or thought against real life, as a faculty
present in normal individuals but defective in some psychotics. Here,
the reality testing is not against what the protagonists and victims of
the 'independent Tibet' campai gn feel or believe, but against what is
systematically put out by the campaign as defining themes. Even if they
have little formal official backing, these themes have acquired some
kind of cult status on the world stage and shaped the p erceptions of
considerable numbers of people who have no contact with the realities
of Tibet. What direct observation, discussions with a cross-section of
Tibetan as well as Han Chinese people, the factual testimony provided
by numerous western visitors (especially those representing non
governmental organisations, including teachers, doctors, medical
workers and volunteers participating in poverty-alleviation projects),
and an examination of salient verifiable data, published as well as
unpublished, r eveal is the political conmanship that underlies much of
the international campaign against the record of the Chinese Government
and the Communist Party of China in Tibet. Frontline presents, in this
Cover Story, the main findings of this r eality testing.
Theme No. 1
A major theme in the 'independence for Tibet' campaign is that China's
role in Tibet is that of a 'colonial' power exploiting the occupied
land's wealth and resources, subjugating its people, and suppressing
its freedom. Part of this theme is the asserti on that even for the
post-1979 period, when some economic improvements took place, official
statistics and ''the Chinese Government's claims'' of social and
economic development in Tibet ''cannot be taken at face value''; and
that in any case ''it is not the Tibetans who benefit from the economic
development of Tibet'' but ''Chinese settlers in Tibet, their
Government and military, and their business enterprises.''
GREG BAKER/AP
Chinese Vice-President Hu Jingtao, Premier Zhu Rongji, President Jiang
Zemin and Chairman of the National People's Congress Li Peng.
This theme links up opportunistically with a long-observed tendency in
colonial and post-colonial western attitudes towards Tibet. Idealising
Tibet's far-from-the-madding-crowd isolation, primitive
impenetrability, frozen-in-time traditions and Lama-led spirituality
and treating its denizens as chosen people holding the key to
happiness, peace and spiritual liberation (at least until the Chinese
arrived) is one side of this tendency. The other side is hostility,
mostly of the patronising kind, vented bo th against unification with
China and the process of modernisation that you see at work everywhere
in Tibet.
Aside from the fact that this first major theme of the 'independence
for Tibet' campaign is identical to one of the core arguments of the
Pakistan-supported extremist secessionist movement in Kashmir, reality
testing for Tibet on the set of issues addres sed by this kind of
argument can be on its own merits, sui generis so to speak.
Observed Reality
Flying into Gongkar airport, Tibet's major airport located in Shannan
Prefecture, is a novel as well as sobering experience. Towards the end
of a three-hour flight originating in Xian, China's ancient capital
(which used to be known as Changan), you catc h a spectacular glimpse
of topographies and landforms that seem straight out of Browning's
strangest poems. Nothing you have read or seen in photographs prepares
you for the vastness, the remoteness, the unnatural natural beauty, the
flat-versus-mountain ous, dry-versus-riverine, fertile-versus-barren
singularity of this once-great sea that has become a high altitude
plateau averaging 4,000 metres, the 'roof of the world'. Tibet has less
oxygen, more sunlight, longer hours of daylight, lower temperatures ,
less precipitation, more changeable weather, more great mountains and
rivers, a larger collection of lakes and nature reserves, and a lower
density of population than most people are used to.
But it is equally true that those who warn you about Tibet - against
breathing difficulty, against altitude sickness, and against any kind
of physical exertion upon landing - exaggerate for the most part.
Unless specific health problems (even a transient problem like a bad
cold) contra-indicate a flying visit to Tibet, acclimatisation is
hardly the arduous challenge that anecdotal evidence and some
guidebooks make it out to be. Further, you discover soon enough that
geographically, physically, climatica lly, socio-economically,
culturally and politically, the Tibet Autonomous Region of China is far
from being a world apart - far-away, impenetrable, and inscrutable -
that Hollywood's fantasising about Shangri-la, 'Seven Years in
Tibet', 'Kundun', and Lam aic Buddhism suggests.
Tibet is on the move. This becomes clear as soon as you are on the
road, either to Lhasa, a smooth, asphalted 95 km northward drive from
Gongkar, or to Tsetang, a somewhat longer drive to the east that we
took straight from the airport. As you spe ed along the highway, you
are offered rapid frame alternations of the new and the old, the modern
and the traditional, in what can be a heady brew of first impressions.
In Tibet, as in most parts of the world, you can end up seeing and
feeling, more or l ess, what you are pre-disposed to seeing and
feeling. And much of this pre-disposition in the West, especially in
the United States, is the outcome of prolonged exposure to
the 'independence for Tibet' propaganda campaign orchestrated by the
Dalai Lama, aided and abetted by Hollywood, by a certain genre of
highly subjective travel writing, and, at a more sophisticated level,
by 'manufacture of consent' in the media passing off as professional
reportage and analysis.
Discrediting modernisation through selective, tendentious description
has become a favourite device in recent first-hand western writing on
Tibet. Whether it is ''Tibetan Tragedy,'' a Time magazine cover story
written by Anthony Spaeth (issue of J uly 17, 2000), or a more
pretentious two-part essay by Ian Baruma in The New York Review of
Books (''Found Horizon'' in the issue of June 29, 2000 and ''Tibet
Disenchanted'' in the issue of July 20, 2000), discos, karaoke bars,
brothels, gambling casinos and so forth loom large in the reportage and
analysis. It is as though these are the distinguishing features of the
modernising process that is on in Tibet, as part of China's gigantic,
Deng Xiaoping-led post-1979 economic transformation. In Baru ma's
evocative account, the dominant image of modernising Tibet under
China's 'colonial' rule is sleaze associated with wild
frontier 'Chinese-style capitalism': ''Chinese carpet-baggers,
hucksters, hookers, gamblers, hoodlums, corrupt officials, and oth er
desperadoes lusting after quick cash.''
Unless the visitor chooses to get obsessively trapped in such images
that are a small part of the reality, what he or she sees is a
different kind of modernisation. New or improved schools, a system of
compulsory schooling for nine or six or three years (depending on the
area and the stage of objective development), and quite competitive
higher educational institutions. A bewildering range of consumer goods
and shops. Modern blue-tinted office buildings, new residential
complexes, and a great deal of co nstruction activity in town and
country. Hospitals and health centres dispensing both modern and a
flourishing Tibetan indigenous medicine. Surplus grain production, new
agricultural methods and practices, tractors, surplus-producing
peasants, commoditis ed agriculture, water conservancy, irrigation,
hydroelectric, geothermal, horticulture, and animal husbandry projects.
Small and medium-sized industries and businesses. Ambitious
infrastructure projects. A sustained economic growth rate close to 10
per c ent per year. Nascent scientific research, surveys, and social
science activity. A substantial Tibetan Archives, active promotion and
use of the Tibetan language (written and spoken), and big projects,
funded largely by the Central Government, to record, collate, edit and
publish Tibetan literary classics, such as King Gesar, and Buddhist
sacred texts. Extensive repair, renovation, restoration and protection
of cultural treasures under a strict and elaborate cultural protection
regime. A splendid Tibet Autonomous Region Museum in Lhasa, with a
floor space of 21,000 square metres, constructed during 1994-97 at a
cost of $12 million. Environmental consciousness and concerns expressed
in strict regulations, policies, an Environmental Protection Bur eau,
afforestation, greening. New roads, highways, cars, two-wheelers,
tractors, speeding trucks and every kind of modern vehicle. Newspapers,
radio, television, mobile phones, twenty-first century telecom, even a
few Internet bars. A nascent interest in biotechnology. Hotels for
various budgets, organised tourism, and a host of other modern tertiary
activities.
KIRAN PRASAD
The Dalai Lama.
This is not surprising given the post-1979 policies of reform and
opening up, which have brought enormous economic changes across China.
Under the impact of these policies, over the past six years the economy
of the Tibet Autonomous Region has grown at a n annual rate close to 10
per cent, which is above the national average. Last year, the Region's
GDP grew at 9.6 per cent. Recently released data on GDP growth for the
first half of 2000 revealed that Tibet's 8.9 per cent was again above
the national ave rage (8.2 per cent). Economic growth during the second
half of the year is expected to be higher.
At the same time, the traditional is very much on view in town and
country. As you speed along the highway to Tsetang, you catch a glimpse
of how the bulk of Tibetans live, in mud and stone houses, cultivating
small plots and tending livestock; prayer fl ags fluttering; primitive
farming and nomadic practices; poor living conditions; colourful long
skirts, striped aprons and beads; people squatting road-side; children
working at home, in the fields, or tending livestock. This reflects the
truth that the level of economic development, the development of
productive forces, and the living standards of the people in the Tibet
Autonomous Region are visibly lower than the Chinese average.
Tibet is clearly at a preliminary stage of modernisation. To ask it to
remain frozen in its traditions, as romantic disillusionment with the
process of modernisation demands, is to be unrealistic as well as
unfair to the mass of Tibetan people. For all t heir observable
religiosity, they are as keen as people anywhere else to solve basic
problems of food, clothing, shelter, transport, education, health, and
decent work, and to improve living standards as quickly as possible.
A VISIT to a surplus-producing peasant family on the outskirts of
Tsetang in Shannan Prefecture makes clear these aspirations. The head
of the ten-member family, seven of whose members still live in this
unpretentious but spacious and traditionally decor ated house, is 56-
year-old Lhodru. He and his wife are illiterate, but four of the five
children have been to school. (The girl is the exception.) In the
1950s, the family had no land of its own and subsisted on raising
donkeys and some cattle, although, as Lhodru noted, it was not a family
of serfs and did not belong to the poorest of the poor. The family
acquired some land after the Democratic Reform in 1959, but until the
late 1970s it produced just enough to keep its head above water.
Today, Lhodru's family owns 22 mu of land, that is 1.46 hectares,
operates a tractor bought with a bank loan, owns six pigs and five
heads of cattle, and sells grain as well as milk in the market. The
proof of its improving living standards can be seen i n the main living
room, in the elaborately decorated furniture and a range of consumer
goods. According to Lhodru, electrification arrived here around 1979
and the basic improvements came after the whole village was shifted to
this location at the end of the 1970s. Of the five children, three,
including the young woman, live with the parents. The youngest member
of the family, a boy, is in high school; the young woman has a job in
the country administration; and of the three remaining sons, one works
in the fields, another is a tractor-driver, and the third makes a
living riding a rickshaw in the local market. Lhodru observes that as
living standards improve and the market economy develops, attitudes,
beliefs and aspirations undergo a significant chang e, especially among
the young. Secondly, he notes, how specific families fare in the new
situation depends very much on capabilities within the family, which
vary considerably; his family has done quite well in response to the
new economic opportunities, benefited from the Central Government's
preferential policies towards Tibet, and lifted itself above a
subsistence status, but it is by no means a rich family.
In Lhasa, the transforming effects of modernisation are much more
visible, whether you visit a factory, the main bazaar or a large
department store or a high school or a hospital, or simply look around
and observe the new office buildings, the new-style residential blocks,
and the extensive construction in progress.
These realities are profoundly different from those that used to
prevail in old Tibet. One of the recurrent complaints of
the 'independence for Tibet' campaign is that the Chinese Government
has sought to 'justify its policy on Tibet' by 'painting the da rkest
picture of traditional Tibetan society.' But the facts are
indisputable.
Historical and social records and the accounts of foreign visitors show
that before the 1959 Democratic Reform, which might have actually come
later had there not been an armed uprising and had the Dalai Lama not
fled to India, Tibet was a feudal serfdom . Land as well as most means
of production were in the hands of the three categories of estate-
owners - government officials, nobles, and upper class Lamas - who
comprised merely 5 per cent of the population. The mass of the
population, serfs and slave s, lived in extreme poverty, as appendages
to estates owned by their masters, lacking education, health care,
personal freedom, any kind of entitlement, obliged to provide unpaid
labour services or ulag, an expansive Tibetan term for extortionate
taxes, corvee and parasitical land rent. Agriculture was largely of the
slash-and-burn kind, modern industry was virtually non-existent, and
transportation was chiefly on animal or human back. Life in general was
brutish and short, with diseases r ampant, the population stagnant, and
life expectancy at birth hovering around 36. At the top of this
profoundly inequitable and oppressive system sat the institution and
person of the Dalai Lama (whatever be the 'reformist' fourteenth Dalai
Lama's subjec tive claims and feelings on this state of affairs).
N. RAM
Inside the Potala Palace, surely one of the world's surviving wonders.
The palace was listed in 1994 as a World Cultural Heritage Site by
UNESCO.
As against these basic realities, the 'independence for Tibet' campaign
advances the argument that there was plenty of Buddhist kindness,
compassion, and caring in old Tibet. While this may be true, there is
only so much that kindness, compassion, and ca ring can achieve in the
face of overpowering objective realities in a feudal serf-owning
society and an extremely backward economy, where 95 per cent of the
population was illiterate and the overwhelming majority lacked the ways
and means to meet basic - even subsistence - needs.
Since Liberation in 1949, China's economic, political and social
policies have gone through some sharp swings, twists, and turns. Such
volatility has taken a considerable toll of the economic and social
development effort, with the decade of the Cultural Revolution bringing
nothing short of all-round calamity. Nevertheless, the record of four
decades of democratic reform in the economic field in the Tibet
Autonomous Region has been solid. Basic needs have been met to a
substantial extent; social and hum an development indicators have risen
impressively; poverty has been reduced; Tibet has acquired the
fundamentals of a modern economy with briskly growing primary,
industrial, and tertiary sectors; infrastructure, especially roads,
highways, the energy se ctor, and telecommunications, have been
developed on an ambitious scale; free medicare has been provided to a
large proportion of the population; and Tibetan society, which is, in
its composition, younger than most other parts of China, has become a
lear ning society.
According to an official publication, there have been four waves of
accelerated economic development since the early 1950s.
The first wave, which came in the 1950s, saw large-scale infrastructure
construction especially in the field of transport; this wave saw the
rapid completion of three major highways linking Tibet to Sichuan,
Qinghai and Nepal, and the Gongkar airport, wh ich helped end the
isolation of Tibet.
The second wave came in the mid-1980s, triggered by two National
Conferences on Work in Tibet held in 1980 and 1984 jointly by the
Communist Party of China and the State Council. In 1980, the Central
Government decided on two policies towards Tibet that would not be
changed for a long time to come -''the land will be used by households,
and will be managed by them on their own'' and ''livestock will be
owned, raised and managed by households on their own.'' These policies
have been extremely popular amo ng farmers and herdsmen who make up
four-fifths of TAR's population and have led to an upsurge in
agricultural production. In 1984, the Central Government mobilised
manpower and material resources from nine provinces and municipalities
to help Tibet bui ld 43 projects as part of the 'Golden Keys
Programme'. The total investment involved was about 480 million yuan.
The third wave came in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when the state
invested more than 3.2 billion yuan in huge infrastructure projects
focussed on energy and transportation. Among other things, this has
brought a comprehensive development project in t he Three River Area,
that is, the area around the Yarlung Zangbo, Lhasa, and Nyang Rivers
encompassing agriculture, water conservancy, and afforestation. The
ambitious project is expected to benefit more than 45 per cent of TAR's
cultivated land, 18 coun ties and a population of 830,000, to lead to
the development of a new base of commercial agriculture and light
industry, and to spur development in the rest of Tibet.
The fourth wave, initiated at the Third National Conference on Work in
Tibet held in July 1994, has been by far the most ambitious in the
series. It has meant more investment, more projects, wider coverage of
areas, and a greater emphasis on quality and accountability. The Third
Forum set an annual growth target of 10 per cent for Tibet's economy
over the medium term and decided that the Central Government together
with 29 provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities would help TAR
construct 62 proj ects ''without compensation,'' involving a total
investment of more than four billion yuan. Virtually all these projects
have been completed ahead of schedule. The target of quadrupling the
1980 GDP by 2000 was actually fulfilled two years ahead of sched ule.
[ stuffs snipped, because it's too long. Try clicking the above link ]
bud_s...@my-deja.com
So reports say, but why is he in that cage? Could it possibly be for
India to please a certain powerful neighbor to the north?
Look, this is ridiculous!
Water Barbarian, Bdamage, KL Mok, (you're incorrigible Yu, so I won't
try to convince you :-))
Why can't Tibetans have religious freedom?
How could it possibly harm China's security?
Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1. The PLA would squish them like a bug
if Tibetans tried anything!
Tibetans are very poor and need China's aid anyway.
Why couldn't Beijing cut a deal with HHDL. Limits on immigration,
Tibetan language in schools, religious freedom and self rule. (But no
greater Tibet, probably access to mining and with environmental
control - something like that.)
Wouldn't a happy, grateful puny minority in China's southwest corner be
better than bitter, angry people telling all the world about how mean
China is?
Has there EVER been a group that said ANYTHING that made the CCP look
bad that you didn't find some connected to the CIA?
Just wondering.
Yu
They already have religious freedom.
I am not sure Dalai Lama working for the CIA is considered religious
freedom.
> How could it possibly harm China's security?
The CIA wants to split Tibet, Qinghia and Xinjiang from China.
That's where China's oil and gas come from. Also at stake is China
nuclear weapons, space research sites.
> Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1. The PLA would squish them like a
bug
> if Tibetans tried anything!
CIA stategy is multi-prongs.
1) They finance puppets like Wang Xizhe, Lian Shengde, Harry Wu and the
Chinese democratic party to work on the Eastern front.
2) they have the Dalai Lama and Erkin Alptekin working on the western
front.
3) Domestically CIA has organizations like the Tibet House with all the
movie stars, singers and fashion models; Think tanks and news paper like
the Moonie Times.
These are some examples.
CIA will not suceed unless they also fool most Chinese into their trap.
> Tibetans are very poor and need China's aid anyway.
The real Tibetans in Tibet need roads, railways and hospitals.
The Tibet activists (mostly led by whites people) are against all that.
Its difficult to talk to all these people constructively because misery
of the real Tibetans in Tibet is a political asset to them.
Their celebrity status is tied up with Americans strategic needs.
> Why couldn't Beijing cut a deal with HHDL.
You have to try to understand Chinese feeling about the Dalai Lama.
DL has a very oppotunistic image. No political leader want to touch him
with a 10 foot pole.
> Limits on immigration,
> Tibetan language in schools, religious freedom and self rule. (But no
> greater Tibet, probably access to mining and with environmental
> control - something like that.)
> Wouldn't a happy, grateful puny minority in China's southwest corner
be
> better than bitter, angry people telling all the world about how mean
> China is?
You have been talking about ethnic "exclusive zone" like the apathied in
old South Africa.
You also ignore the fact that more than 400,000 ethnic Tibetans are now
living outside their traditional home.
You want people to be ethnically cleanse so that everybody goes back to
the their great grandfather's homeland.
Why is it that that almost everybody else in the world are mixing around
and China alone must erect ethnic barriers.
The answer is simple these people are talking about USA's strategic
interest.
They fear that their investment in the Dalai Lama will become absolete
once people of Tibet are integrated into a bigger Chinese society.
Plenty. I myself criticized CCP for wasting money on hosting olympic
games. Also the corruption that resulted in fire and building callapse.
Lots of reform needed every where. Am I working for CIA? :)
-------------
All the three main characters in the "Tian An Meng Papers",
Andrew Nathan, Perry Link and Orville Schell; they are all board
members of a USA funded propaganda organ called the HRIC
(HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA). Fang Lizhi is Chairman.
HRIC received millions from NED (National Endowment for democracy,)
a CIA front drganization.
How can we ignore these facts.
bud_s...@my-deja.com
the
> > > > > Karmapa,
> > > > > > things have gotten worse for Tibetans in Tibet.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems that every year, there is a pre-Chrismas monks/nuns
> > killing
> > > > > story before the Tibet activist go on year end holidays.
> > > > > This is followed by an early January realease of annual report
> > after
> > > > > their holidays.
> > > > > This season they have Karmapa. Other years they other
fictions.
> > > >
> > > > The escape of the Karmapa was fiction? So he's not really in
> India?
> > >
> > > Karmapa is a real person, but his escape to "freedom" is fiction.
> > > He is now like a bird in a cage in India.
> >
> > So reports say, but why is he in that cage? Could it possibly be for
> > India to please a certain powerful neighbor to the north?
> >
> > Look, this is ridiculous!
> > Water Barbarian, Bdamage, KL Mok,
> > (you're incorrigible Yu, so I won't
> > try to convince you :-))
> > Why can't Tibetans have religious freedom?
>
> They already have religious freedom.
Does this sound like religious freedom to you?
***********************************************
Tibet re-educates rebellious monks, denies deaths (Reuter)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
BEIJING, June 13, [1996] (Reuter) - Tibetan officials said on Thursday
they were pleased at progress made in re-educating monks at a monastery
closed after a clash with officials sent to tear down pictures of the
exiled Dalai Lama.
The officials denied a report by the London-based Tibet Information
Network (TIN) that one monk had died after being shot by troops who
took over the mountain-top Ganden monastery last month and that a 13-
year-old novice had been beaten.
"No troops entered Ganden, there was no gunfire, no monk was wounded or
died," an official of the Lhasa Ethnic and Religious Affairs Bureau
said in a telephone interview.
The TIN, quoting sources in Tibet, said a 40-year-old monk, identified
as Kelsang Nyendrak, had died several days after being shot in the
lower back when troops opened fire before entering the largest
monastery in the restive Himalayan region.
The monastery was closed and dozens of monks detained on May 7, a day
after monks threw rocks and expelled a government work team sent to
remove all pictures of Tibet's exiled god-king, the Dalai Lama,
officials have said.
"We detained 63 monks in the monastery but no police were involved," the
Lhasa official said, adding that two officials injured in the clash had
been released from hospital and no charges would be filed against the
monks......
********************************************************
Even if you think TIN is lying, what about the government statements
about "reeducation"? I talked to a shop owner in Lhasa (in October
1999) who said many of those Ganden monks were still in prison.
> I am not sure Dalai Lama working for
> the CIA is considered religious
> freedom.
>
> > How could it possibly harm China's security?
>
> The CIA wants to split Tibet, Qinghai and Xinjiang from China.
> That's where China's oil and gas come from. Also at stake is China
> nuclear weapons, space research sites.
Don't you think Tibetans might be willing to let Chinese
control nuclear and space research sites in return for aid? Petrol in
return for environmental controls and a cut of the profits? Don't you
think it would at least be worth negotiating? If Tibetans refused at
least Beijing could say it tried. Wouldn't that be good PR for the
Beijing?
>
> > Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1.
> > The PLA would squish them like a bug
> > if Tibetans tried anything!
>
> CIA stategy is multi-prongs.
>
> 1) They finance puppets like Wang Xizhe,
> Lian Shengde, Harry Wu and the
> Chinese democratic party to work on the Eastern front.
>
> 2) they have the Dalai Lama and Erkin Alptekin
> working on the western front.
BTW, who the hell is Erkin Alptekin?
>
> 3) Domestically CIA has organizations
> like the Tibet House with all the
> movie stars, singers and fashion models;
> Think tanks and news paper like
> the Moonie Times.
> These are some examples.
You keep blaming the CIA for international interest
in Tibet, but to people in the West that just sounds silly.
Ask Chinese in the West if they think interest in Tibet
is a mirage. They may think it is foolish or
even racist, but I don't think they'll deny it's real.
> CIA will not succeed unless they also
> fool most Chinese into their trap.
>
> > Tibetans are very poor and need China's aid anyway.
>
> The real Tibetans in Tibet need roads,
> railways and hospitals.
> The Tibet activists (mostly led
> by whites people) are against all that.
So fuckk'em! It's angry Tibetans in Tibet that could
endanger PRC security in the southwest, not a few whites
people protesting in L.A. or London. If Tibetans reach
an agreement with China do you think the whites people
are going to keep on protesting?
If they do keep on protesting (or some of them do),
who's going to pay any attention to them?
> Its difficult to talk to all these people
> constructively because misery
> of the real Tibetans in Tibet is a
> political asset to them.
> Their celebrity status is tied up with
> Americans strategic needs.
If I'm not mistaken Richard Gere is now barred
from Academy Awards ceremonies for his asking
everybody to meditate on changing Jiang Zemin's
mind. Wasn't `Red Corner` a box office bomb?
I think maybe the Tibet issue has hurt not
helped Gere.
And as for strategic needs, if U.S. has a strategic
need to weaken China, how the hell did WTO and PNTR
pass the U.S. Congress?
>
> > Why couldn't Beijing cut a deal with HHDL?
>
> You have to try to understand Chinese feeling about the Dalai Lama.
> DL has a very oppotunistic image.
> No political leader want to touch him
> with a 10 foot pole.
Well maybe this is the "key link" as they sometimes
say. HH Dalai Lama took money from the CIA in the 1960
and early 70s before Nixon's trip.
The CIA also funded Tibetan guerillas fighting
the PLA at this time.
Is this treachery that disqualifies HH from ever being
trusted by Chinese?
You and many Chinese believe that this activity
DOES disqualify HH because it means HH took money
to fight his country's army and work against
the government of the motherland. Since Tibet is
part of China, fighting China is fighting against
the motherland. Am I right?
What I'm asking you to consider is:
IS THIS WHAT TIBETANS THINK?
Do Tibetans think of their country as part of China?
The official line is yes, Tibetan do, but I've never
found an independent source/scholar that agrees with this.
Maybe you could say Tibetans are wrong and Tibet is
part of China despite what they think. Tibet is
internationally recognized as part of China and
that's the end of it. But even if that is so it
doesn't mean that rebellion, soliciting and receiving
aid from abroad is betrayal. What HH and the
Tibetan guerillas did may have been an attack on China,
a great error, bad for Tibetans -
but betrayal or opportunism it was not.
So why should Chinese negotiate with HH? Because
all independent reports from journalists, scholars,
travelers, everybody says there is near unanimous devotion
and support for him in Tibet.
Chinese are angry with the CCP for all that
happened during the Great Leap Forward and GP
Cultural Rev? But the CCP changed and now most
Chinese tolerate, if not support, its rule.
Just as the CCP had changed so has HH Dalai Lama.
>
> > Limits on immigration,
> > Tibetan language in schools, religious freedom and self rule. (But
no
> > greater Tibet, probably access to mining and with environmental
> > control - something like that.)
> > Wouldn't a happy, grateful puny minority
> > in China's southwest corner be
> > better than bitter, angry people
> > telling all the world about how mean
> > China is?
>
> You have been talking about ethnic
> "exclusive zone" like the apathied in
> old South Africa.
What??? Since when is "Limits on immigration," an ethnic "exclusive
zone"???
When has anyone let alone the head of Tibetan opposition, called for a
cleansing of Chinese from Tibet? HH and other Tibetans want an end to
mass immigration of Han and Hui into Tibet simply because they are
starting to outnumber Tibetans. Tibetans aren't outnumbering anyone in
the rest of the PRC.
> You also ignore the fact that more
> than 400,000 ethnic Tibetans are now
> living outside their traditional home.
> You want people to be ethnically cleanse
> so that everybody goes back to
> the their great grandfather's homeland.
No I don't.
>
> Why is it that that almost everybody else
> in the world are mixing around
> and China alone must erect ethnic barriers.
> The answer is simple these people are talking about USA's strategic
> interest.
Give me a break.
> They fear that their investment in the Dalai Lama will become absolete
> once people of Tibet are integrated into a bigger Chinese society.
<snipped>
Have a nice day :-)
Bud Swanson
"It is important not to oversimplify a complex issue."
--Yuguang
Yu
Tibet Information Network(TIN) is a propagada organ of the USA and Uk
funded by the National Endowment For Democracy and the Westminester
Foundation for Democracy (WFD).
It specialize in making sensational news. Even British news papers call
it "openly pro-tibet", what ever that means.
Bud Swanson,
Please tell us if you really think TIN can be trusted as a realiable
source of information.
Why is it that no reputable Tibetologist ever quote from TIN?
> "No troops entered Ganden, there was no gunfire, no monk was wounded
or
> died," an official of the Lhasa Ethnic and Religious Affairs Bureau
> said in a telephone interview.
>
> The TIN, quoting sources in Tibet, said a 40-year-old monk, identified
> as Kelsang Nyendrak, had died several days after being shot in the
> lower back when troops opened fire before entering the largest
> monastery in the restive Himalayan region.
>
Yu
bud_s...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <93ok4v$nna$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Yu <yug...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <93nnnm$vct$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > bud_s...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <93llrm$7n9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > Yu <yug...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <93ksrb$fn6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > bud_s...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > > In article <93j3si$82$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > > Yu <yug...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <93ittu$r27$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > > > bud_s...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > > > > In article <3a5bcc2d$0$21838$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net>,
> > > > > > > "Water Barberian" <som...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Yu" <yug...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:93g92d$i53$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > > > > > > In article <93g5a3$fd6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > > > > > > bud_s...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > China's repression in Tibet worsened
> > > > > > > > > > in 2000, rights report says (AFP)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ********************************************************
>
> Even if you think TIN is lying, what about the government statements
> about "reeducation"? I talked to a shop owner in Lhasa (in October
> 1999) who said many of those Ganden monks were still in prison.
I don't know if that is true.
PRC has nothing to gain keeping innocent people in prison.
There is a security threat that need to be dealt with.
> > I am not sure Dalai Lama working for
> > the CIA is considered religious
> > freedom.
> >
> > > How could it possibly harm China's security?
> >
> > The CIA wants to split Tibet, Qinghai and Xinjiang from China.
> > That's where China's oil and gas come from. Also at stake is China
> > nuclear weapons, space research sites.
>
> Don't you think Tibetans might be willing to let Chinese
> control nuclear and space research sites in return for aid? Petrol in
> return for environmental controls and a cut of the profits? Don't you
> think it would at least be worth negotiating? If Tibetans refused at
> least Beijing could say it tried. Wouldn't that be good PR for the
> Beijing?
As I have said before, the Tibet activists living comfortably in the
west as spoke person of Tibetans care nothing about the reality on the
ground. All they ever care is to create trouble and get paid in the
west. They would oppose any development in Tibet.
Misery in Tibet is a political asset to them.
> > > Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1.
> > > The PLA would squish them like a bug
> > > if Tibetans tried anything!
> >
> > CIA stategy is multi-prongs.
> >
> > 1) They finance puppets like Wang Xizhe,
> > Lian Shengde, Harry Wu and the
> > Chinese democratic party to work on the Eastern front.
> >
> > 2) they have the Dalai Lama and Erkin Alptekin
> > working on the western front.
>
> BTW, who the hell is Erkin Alptekin?
Do a search please.
He was warmly wellcome by US Congressional leaders and director of the
NED when he visited Washington.
> > 3) Domestically CIA has organizations
> > like the Tibet House with all the
> > movie stars, singers and fashion models;
> > Think tanks and news paper like
> > the Moonie Times.
> > These are some examples.
>
> You keep blaming the CIA for international interest
> in Tibet, but to people in the West that just sounds silly.
They are very ignorant lot.
> Ask Chinese in the West if they think interest in Tibet
> is a mirage. They may think it is foolish or
> even racist, but I don't think they'll deny it's real.
Interest in Tibet can be promoted. This is an industrial age.
Public opinion can be manufactured if you have the money.
> > CIA will not succeed unless they also
> > fool most Chinese into their trap.
> >
> > > Tibetans are very poor and need China's aid anyway.
> >
> > The real Tibetans in Tibet need roads,
> > railways and hospitals.
> > The Tibet activists (mostly led
> > by whites people) are against all that.
>
> So fuckk'em! It's angry Tibetans in Tibet that could
> endanger PRC security in the southwest, not a few whites
> people protesting in L.A. or London. If Tibetans reach
> an agreement with China do you think the whites people
> are going to keep on protesting?
Why not? They have other motives.
bud_s...@my-deja.com
Here is a repost from my previous post (msg 10):
****************************************************
Even if you think TIN is lying, what about the government statements
about "reeducation"? I talked to a shop owner in Lhasa (in October
1999) who said many of those Ganden monks were still in prison.
*******************************************************
any reply?
> Bud Swanson,
> Please tell us if you really think TIN
> can be trusted as a realiable
> source of information.
> Why is it that no reputable Tibetologist ever quote from TIN?
I guess I'd call reports by TIN prima facie evidence. They don't settle
a matter. They aren't definative proof. (Which is why TIbetologists
steer clear of them I suppose.) As you say, TIN's reports are about bad
things that happen in Tibet, not just anything newsworthy. Be that as
it may, I certainly don't thing their reports can be blown off
as "lies."
>
> > "No troops entered Ganden, there was no gunfire, no monk was wounded
> or
> > died," an official of the Lhasa Ethnic and Religious Affairs Bureau
> > said in a telephone interview.
> >
> > The TIN, quoting sources in Tibet, said a 40-year-old monk,
identified
> > as Kelsang Nyendrak, had died several days after being shot in the
> > lower back when troops opened fire before entering the largest
> > monastery in the restive Himalayan region.
> >
Any reply to this:
(Repost:)
Have a nice day :-)
Bud Swanson
"It is important not to oversimplify a complex issue."
--Yuguang
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Yu
> Here is a repost from my previous post (msg 10):
> ****************************************************
>
> Even if you think TIN is lying, what about the government statements
> about "reeducation"? I talked to a shop owner in Lhasa (in October
> 1999) who said many of those Ganden monks were still in prison.
> *******************************************************
> any reply?
I have already replied that. Please see my other post.
PRC gov have enough mouths to feed. Only those considered security risk
are detained. It is not uncommon for terrorist to pretend to be monks
or nuns.
Dominique Seytre
Water Barberian <som...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
3a5bcc2d$0$21838$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net...
bud_s...@my-deja.com
The govt. keeps people in prison it thinks are a security threat.
The question is: would monks and nuns be demonstrating and
yelling "Free Tibet" if Beijing negotiated with HH and the hard line
policy in Tibet was abandoned?
I doubt it.
>
> > > I am not sure Dalai Lama working for
> > > the CIA is considered religious
> > > freedom.
> > >
> > > > How could it possibly harm China's security?
> > >
> > > The CIA wants to split Tibet, Qinghai and Xinjiang from China.
> > > That's where China's oil and gas come from. Also at stake is China
> > > nuclear weapons, space research sites.
> >
> > Don't you think Tibetans might be willing to let Chinese
> > control nuclear and space research sites
> > in return for aid? Petrol in
> > return for environmental controls
> > and a cut of the profits? Don't you
> > think it would at least be worth negotiating? If Tibetans refused at
> > least Beijing could say it tried. Wouldn't that be good PR for the
> > Beijing?
>
> As I have said before, the Tibet activists living comfortably in the
> west as spoke person of Tibetans care nothing about the reality on the
> ground. All they ever care is to create trouble and get paid in the
> west. They would oppose any development in Tibet.
> Misery in Tibet is a political asset to them.
Who are Tibet activists? Some are completely committed and would
support HH Dalai Lama and Tibetan exiles no matter what.
Some are casual supporters who would quit the minute HH DL did
something they considered unreasonable.
Some hold "The Chinese" to blame for what happened to Tibet.
Some don't believe in blame.
Ask some Chinese you trust in the lands of Tibetan activism about it.
Ask them if support for Tibet as a mass movement depends on the
perception of Tibetan opposition as nonviolent, moderate, nobel peace
prize-winners willing to compromise with Beijing.
I personally would cease posting on this news group and find something
else to do with my time if I thought the PRC made a reasonable offer
to HHDL and it was turned down.
> > > > Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1.
> > > > The PLA would squish them like a bug
> > > > if Tibetans tried anything!
> > >
> > > CIA stategy is multi-prongs.
> > >
> > > 1) They finance puppets like Wang Xizhe,
> > > Lian Shengde, Harry Wu and the
> > > Chinese democratic party to work on the Eastern front.
> > >
> > > 2) they have the Dalai Lama and Erkin Alptekin
> > > working on the western front.
> >
> > BTW, who the hell is Erkin Alptekin?
>
> Do a search please.
> He was warmly welcome by US Congressional leaders
> and director of the
> NED when he visited Washington.
True, you can find him on Google.
Where you can't find him is on the radar of
public awareness in the U.S.
> > > 3) Domestically CIA has organizations
> > > like the Tibet House with all the
> > > movie stars, singers and fashion models;
> > > Think tanks and news paper like
> > > the Moonie Times.
> > > These are some examples.
> >
> > You keep blaming the CIA for international interest
> > in Tibet, but to people in the West that just sounds silly.
>
> They are very ignorant lot.
>
> > Ask Chinese in the West if they think interest in Tibet
> > is a mirage. They may think it is foolish or
> > even racist, but I don't think they'll deny it's real.
>
> Interest in Tibet can be promoted. This is an industrial age.
> Public opinion can be manufactured if you have the money.
Isn't this a little silly? Wouldn't people in the West with
all their access to news media and internet know a bit more
about what is going on in the West than someone in Malaysia?
Sure, lots of them are ignorant and appathetic. But why wouldn't
someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and manufacturing
of support by the CIA for Tibet?
It's not as though Chompsky and his "manufactured consent" line
are unknown here. He regularly tours college campuses.
It's not as though Beijing hasn't promoted its own interests.
Where I work we got a flurry of magazines and booklets
from Xinhua on the wonders of Chinese rule in Tibet.
I think it would help to visit the West.
Have you ever been there?
Maybe you have, but I got a feeling you would have told us
about it by now if you had.
Yu
It's hard to keep everybody happy in a poor country.
You can say the same thing about the enviromentalists in USA, the Native
Americans, the Rodney King riot.
USA has has a vast propaganda mchine that is helping the Dalai Lama.
The Demands of the Dalai Lama are impossible to meet. For example he
wants 35% of China for less than 5 mil Tibetans.
What matter most is the CIA. The rest do not have the stamina to go on
and on for 50 years.
> Ask some Chinese you trust in the lands of Tibetan activism about it.
> Ask them if support for Tibet as a mass movement depends on the
> perception of Tibetan opposition as nonviolent, moderate, nobel peace
> prize-winners willing to compromise with Beijing.
> I personally would cease posting on this news group and find something
> else to do with my time if I thought the PRC made a reasonable offer
> to HHDL and it was turned down.
I sort of doubt you carry that much influence on Dalai course.
They will chew you up it they really gain power :)
> > > > > Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1.
> > > > > The PLA would squish them like a bug
> > > > > if Tibetans tried anything!
> > > >
> > > > CIA stategy is multi-prongs.
> > > >
> > > > 1) They finance puppets like Wang Xizhe,
> > > > Lian Shengde, Harry Wu and the
> > > > Chinese democratic party to work on the Eastern front.
> > > >
> > > > 2) they have the Dalai Lama and Erkin Alptekin
> > > > working on the western front.
> > >
> > > BTW, who the hell is Erkin Alptekin?
> >
> > Do a search please.
> > He was warmly welcome by US Congressional leaders
> > and director of the
> > NED when he visited Washington.
>
> True, you can find him on Google.
> Where you can't find him is on the radar of
> public awareness in the U.S.
Building a personality cult take time.
The Tibet activist only became reactivated around the last 10 years.
> > > > 3) Domestically CIA has organizations
> > > > like the Tibet House with all the
> > > > movie stars, singers and fashion models;
> > > > Think tanks and news paper like
> > > > the Moonie Times.
> > > > These are some examples.
> > >
> > > You keep blaming the CIA for international interest
> > > in Tibet, but to people in the West that just sounds silly.
> >
> > They are very ignorant lot.
> >
> > > Ask Chinese in the West if they think interest in Tibet
> > > is a mirage. They may think it is foolish or
> > > even racist, but I don't think they'll deny it's real.
> >
> > Interest in Tibet can be promoted. This is an industrial age.
> > Public opinion can be manufactured if you have the money.
>
> Isn't this a little silly? Wouldn't people in the West with
> all their access to news media and internet know a bit more
> about what is going on in the West than someone in Malaysia?
If I were in USA I would be called a hypocrate who hide in USA to enjoy
the "freedom".
Since I am not in USA they figure out other ways to discridit me.
What can I say. If you think you are smarter or more knowledgeble that
fine with me.
You think you really know me?
Where I work or travel.
> Sure, lots of them are ignorant and appathetic. But why wouldn't
> someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and manufacturing
> of support by the CIA for Tibet?
Opinion survey show American having negative feeling against China.
I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
Yu
> > The govt. keeps people in prison it thinks are a security threat.
> > The question is: would monks and nuns be demonstrating and
> > yelling "Free Tibet" if Beijing negotiated with HH and the hard line
> > policy in Tibet was abandoned?
> > I doubt it.
>
> It's hard to keep everybody happy in a poor country.
Just want to clarify this point.
USA being a lot richer yet has more people in jail (as a percentage of
population size) and violent protest/rioting as well.
Here is something closer to Bud's home, hope he pays close attention to
it: http://pdxnorml.org/LAT_Racial_Fairness_021396.html
A staggering 39% of California's African American men in their 20s were
in prison, jails or on probation last year, according to a study
released Monday (1996).
Nearly four in 10 of the state's young black men were under some form of
criminal justice control last year. By comparison,the rate was about
one in 10 for young Latino males and one in 20 for white men.
In practically every aspect of criminal justice in California, blacks
fared worse than other ethnic groups, whole whites fared better. Among
other things, the report found:
.Although blacks make up nearly one third of the prison population, they
constitute only 18 percent of those arrested. At the same time, whites
make up 53 percent of those arrested, but less than 30 percent of the
state's inmates. Nearly 60 percent of black inmates are serving time for
nonviolent offenses.
> You can say the same thing about the enviromentalists in USA, the
Native
> Americans, the Rodney King riot.
>
> USA has has a vast propaganda mchine that is helping the Dalai Lama.
> The Demands of the Dalai Lama are impossible to meet. For example he
> wants 35% of China for less than 5 mil Tibetans.
bud_s...@my-deja.com
That demand almost certainly IS impossible to meet...that doesn't
mean Beijing couldn't negotiate with HH and get a better deal.
Greater Tibet "demand" is widely considered unrealistic.
I carry no influence. The point is I'm not that different
from most Tibet activists. I'm interested in Tibet
because of its nonviolent, moderate, nobel peace
prize-winning leadership. Not because I'm a zombie
whose opinions are "manufactured" by the CIA.
> They will chew you up it they really gain power :)
>
> > > > > > Tibetans are outnumbered 200 to 1.
> > > > > > The PLA would squish them like a bug
> > > > > > if Tibetans tried anything!
> > > > >
> > > > > CIA stategy is multi-prongs.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) They finance puppets like Wang Xizhe,
> > > > > Lian Shengde, Harry Wu and the
> > > > > Chinese democratic party to work on the Eastern front.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) they have the Dalai Lama and Erkin Alptekin
> > > > > working on the western front.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, who the hell is Erkin Alptekin?
> > >
> > > Do a search please.
> > > He was warmly welcome by US Congressional leaders
> > > and director of the
> > > NED when he visited Washington.
> >
> > True, you can find him on Google.
> > Where you can't find him is on the radar of
> > public awareness in the U.S.
>
> Building a personality cult take time.
> The Tibet activist only became reactivated
> around the last 10 years.
I don't know much of anything about
Erkin Alptekin, but I understand opposition
to the Chinese in Xinjiang is not non-violent.
The idea of Xinjiang turning into another
Afghanistan would probably not be conducive to
a personality cult developing in to West.
> > > > > 3) Domestically CIA has organizations
> > > > > like the Tibet House with all the
> > > > > movie stars, singers and fashion models;
> > > > > Think tanks and news paper like
> > > > > the Moonie Times.
> > > > > These are some examples.
> > > >
> > > > You keep blaming the CIA for international interest
> > > > in Tibet, but to people in the West that just sounds silly.
> > >
> > > They are very ignorant lot.
> > >
> > > > Ask Chinese in the West if they think interest in Tibet
> > > > is a mirage. They may think it is foolish or
> > > > even racist, but I don't think they'll deny it's real.
> > >
> > > Interest in Tibet can be promoted. This is an industrial age.
> > > Public opinion can be manufactured if you have the money.
> >
> > Isn't this a little silly? Wouldn't people in the West with
> > all their access to news media and internet know a bit more
> > about what is going on in the West than someone in Malaysia?
>
> If I were in USA I would be called a hypocrate
> who hide in USA to enjoy the "freedom".
> Since I am not in USA they figure out other ways
> to discredit me.
I don't want to discredit you, I want to challenge the idea that
without ever visiting a particular foreign land someone can
know what motivates the people of that culture,
know whether people there are tools of the CIA
or can think for themselves.
> What can I say. If you think you
> are smarter or more knowledgeble that
> fine with me.
Would pay any attention to a Westerner who
had never visited China who told
you that you were a stooge of the CCP?
....And why would you?
Being surrounded by a culture and people all your waking hours,
being able to see people you talk to,
their body language, their facial expressions,
all that stuff gives you vastly more to go on
to make judgements on what goes on in that
place than just learning about it from the media
or the internet.
This has nothing to do with being smarter.
A dimwit who lives in a country might truly know more
about that place than a genius who's never been to it.
>
> You think you really know me?
> Where I work or travel.
No. You're a mystery to us all. :-)
> > Sure, lots of them are ignorant and appathetic. But why wouldn't
> > someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> > have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and manufacturing
> > of support by the CIA for Tibet?
>
> Opinion survey show American having negative feeling against China.
> I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
They would have negative feelings about a war with China I assure you,
and sabotage is an act of war.
Yu
Name me one prominent Tibet activist that agrees with you.
I doubt very much you are like most Tibet activists.
They curse Goldstein for example while you worship him like saint.
So you claim to know me personally, where I have been or what I do.
You have already discridited yourself.
> > What can I say. If you think you
> > are smarter or more knowledgeble that
> > fine with me.
>
> Would pay any attention to a Westerner who
> had never visited China who told
> you that you were a stooge of the CCP?
> ....And why would you?
>
> Being surrounded by a culture and people all your waking hours,
> being able to see people you talk to,
> their body language, their facial expressions,
> all that stuff gives you vastly more to go on
> to make judgements on what goes on in that
> place than just learning about it from the media
> or the internet.
>
> This has nothing to do with being smarter.
> A dimwit who lives in a country might truly know more
> about that place than a genius who's never been to it.
>
> >
> > You think you really know me?
> > Where I work or travel.
>
> No. You're a mystery to us all. :-)
In the past people have been forced to leave the USENET because they
criticized the Tibet activists. It is wise to remain a mystery. :)
> > > Sure, lots of them are ignorant and appathetic. But why wouldn't
> > > someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> > > have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and manufacturing
> > > of support by the CIA for Tibet?
> >
> > Opinion survey show American having negative feeling against China.
> > I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
>
> They would have negative feelings about a war with China I assure you,
> and sabotage is an act of war.
American have no knowledge of CIA's existence or what they did in south
America?
bud_s...@my-deja.com
I can not.
And it may be even be most Tibet activists
think I'm speaking out of turn.
But when have negotiated settlements
given one side everything it's asked for?
IMHO, as a general rule activists are more
interested in expressing righteousness than
plausible end games.
The question is what would Tibet activists
(prominent or otherwise) do if HHDL agreed
to an autonomy settlement that involved only the TAR.
These activists may have opinions on Greater Tibet,
but their overriding opinion (IMHO) is
self-determination for Tibetans and support
of HHDL as the representative of the Tibetan people.
> > > > as nonviolent, moderate, Nobel peace
> > > > prize-winners willing to compromise with Beijing.
> > > > I personally would cease posting on
> > > > this news group and find something
> > > > else to do with my time if I thought
> > > > the PRC made a reasonable offer
> > > > to HHDL and it was turned down.
> > >
> > > I sort of doubt you carry that much influence on Dalai course.
> >
> > I carry no influence. The point is I'm not that different
> > from most Tibet activists. I'm interested in Tibet
> > because of its nonviolent, moderate, Nobel peace
> > prize-winning leadership. Not because I'm a zombie
> > whose opinions are "manufactured" by the CIA.
>
> I doubt very much you are like most Tibet activists.
> They curse Goldstein for example while you worship him like saint.
Goldstein is very knowledgeable about Tibet.
He is something of an expert on the Tibetan language.
He has spent a good deal of time among Tibetans
and in Tibet. I quote him and other scholars because
they are more credible than partisans, politicians
and such - not because I think they are infallible,
let alone "saints."
Why do you say that?
As I've said before, I suspect if you had
visited the West you might have mentioned
it previously.
Have you?
It's certainly your right to refuse to answer
but the question does seem relevant to the
issue of determining what motivates
Tibet activists in the West and how
influential the CIA is or is not in
"manufacturing" opinions.
> You have already discridited yourself.
Woe is me! :-)
> > > What can I say. If you think you
> > > are smarter or more knowledgeble that
> > > fine with me.
> >
> > Would pay any attention to a Westerner who
> > had never visited China who told
> > you that you were a stooge of the CCP?
> > ....And why would you?
> >
> > Being surrounded by a culture and people all your waking hours,
> > being able to see people you talk to,
> > their body language, their facial expressions,
> > all that stuff gives you vastly more to go on
> > to make judgements on what goes on in that
> > place than just learning about it from the media
> > or the internet.
> >
> > This has nothing to do with being smarter.
> > A dimwit who lives in a country might truly know more
> > about that place than a genius who's never been to it.
> >
> > >
> > > You think you really know me?
> > > Where I work or travel.
> >
> > No. You're a mystery to us all. :-)
>
> In the past people have been forced to leave the USENET because they
> criticized the Tibet activists. It is wise to remain a mystery. :)
Well that certainly doesn't sound fair!
When was that, and what did they say in criticism?
> > > > Sure, lots of them are ignorant and apathetic. But why wouldn't
> > > > someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> > > > have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and
manufacturing
> > > > of support by the CIA for Tibet?
> > >
> > > Opinion survey show American having
> > > negative feeling against China.
> > > I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
> >
> > They would have negative feelings about
> > a war with China I assure you,
> > and sabotage is an act of war.
>
> American have no knowledge of CIA's existence
> or what they did in south America?
But that was a different era. The Cold War is over.
Yu
>
> I can not.
See what I mean.
Most of them are not interested in peace. They want a greater Tibet
which make up 35% of China to be given to their CIA puppet, the Dalai
Lama. Misery in Tibet is their political asset while they live
comfortabily in the west.
> And it may be even be most Tibet activists
> think I'm speaking out of turn.
> But when have negotiated settlements
> given one side everything it's asked for?
> IMHO, as a general rule activists are more
> interested in expressing righteousness than
> plausible end games.
Some of them may be misguided, but the moving force behind these
activists is a well orchestrated campaign led by secret services of USA,
Britian and allies to sabortage China.
If they are purely interseted in expressing righteousness why is there
so little interest in the 100,000 Bhutanese refugees in the same
region,Nepal.
My impression is most Tibet activists hate him.
I have been receiving 2 kinds of e-mails.
Those who ask me to shut up and those who tell to be careful about the
various dirty tactics of the Tibet activists in silencing their
opponent.
I will not talk about myself in the usenet. This is the advise of
experts.
I noticed that Bud himself is using a false name and never talk about
his home town.
One way was to pressure their employer.
> > > > > Sure, lots of them are ignorant and apathetic. But why
wouldn't
> > > > > someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> > > > > have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and
> manufacturing
> > > > > of support by the CIA for Tibet?
> > > >
> > > > Opinion survey show American having
> > > > negative feeling against China.
> > > > I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
> > >
> > > They would have negative feelings about
> > > a war with China I assure you,
> > > and sabotage is an act of war.
> >
> > American have no knowledge of CIA's existence
> > or what they did in south America?
>
> But that was a different era. The Cold War is over.
Agree the cold war is over but US defense budget is going up.
CIA budget is going up. Radio free Asia started operation in 1996
dispite the cold war was over.
Of course one essential ingridient of a sucessful propaganda compaign is
to deceive the victims.
bud_s...@my-deja.com
> > > Name me one prominent Tibet activist that agrees with you.
> >
> > I can not.
>
> See what I mean.
> Most of them are not interested in peace. They want a greater Tibet
> which make up 35% of China to be given to their CIA puppet, the Dalai
> Lama. Misery in Tibet is their political asset while they live
> comfortabily in the west.
>
> > And it may be even be most Tibet activists
> > think I'm speaking out of turn.
> > But when have negotiated settlements
> > given one side everything it's asked for?
> > IMHO, as a general rule activists are more
> > interested in expressing righteousness than
I suppose you could say that's the role of the political activists.
> Some of them may be misguided, but the moving force behind these
> activists is a well orchestrated campaign led by secret services of
USA,
> Britian and allies to sabortage China.
> If they are purely interseted in expressing righteousness why is there
> so little interest in the 100,000 Bhutanese refugees in the same
> region, Nepal.
Well there is SOME interest in the refugees:
******************************************
Thursday, 14 September, 2000, 14:35 GMT 15:35
UK Bhutanese refugees hail European call
Bhutanese refugee groups in Nepal have welcomed
the European Parliament's call for their early
repatriation to Bhutan.
The European Parliament says the one-hundred-thousand
refugees have been denied their human rights,
and it has called on Nepal and Bhutan to find
a swift solution to their ten-year old dispute
over the issue......
**********************************************
Monday, 10 January, 2000, 23:10 GMT
Return of Bhutanese refugees demanded
From the newsroom of the BBC World Service
A leading human rights campaigner in Bhutan, Teknath Rizal - freed last
month by King Jigme Singye Wangchuk after serving ten years of a life
sentence for subversion - says he may campaign for constitutional
change unless the king grants him an audience.
Mr Rizal, a former royal adviser, wants to discuss the return from
Nepal and India of more than one-hundred-thousand refugees from Bhutan
who say they were forced to leave because they're ethnically Nepali.
The human rights organisation Amnesty International classified Mr Rizal
as a political prisoner because of his calls for democracy and human
rights.....
********************************************
Monday, 20 December, 1999, 17:17 GMT
Bhutanese opposition wants talks with King
The Bhutanese human rights leader, Tek Nath Rizal,
who has just been released from prison,
says he has asked to see the King, Jigme Singhe Wangchuk,
to discuss the prospect of democracy and the repatriation
of thousands of Bhutanese refugees from neighbouring Nepal.
Mr Rizal told the BBC he was grateful to the international
community and human rights groups for campaigning for his
release.....
(these stories were the first three listed on)
http://www.bhootan.org/internation_news/bbc-news.htm
********************************************
The European Parliament, Amnesty International and "international
community and human rights groups" seem to be interested.
Have any posters said that? I have never heard
anyone say they hated Goldstein.
Well as I say it's your right to tell
or not to tell. But you don't have to reveal
your address or job to say whether you have
been to the West or not.
>
> I noticed that Bud himself is using a false name and never talk about
> his home town.
My name is 100% accurate!
Could you tell us a little more. Who and when?
> > > > > > Sure, lots of them are ignorant and apathetic. But why
> wouldn't
> > > > > > someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> > > > > > have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and
> > manufacturing
> > > > > > of support by the CIA for Tibet?
> > > > >
> > > > > Opinion survey show American having
> > > > > negative feeling against China.
> > > > > I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
> > > >
> > > > They would have negative feelings about
> > > > a war with China I assure you,
> > > > and sabotage is an act of war.
> > >
> > > American have no knowledge of CIA's existence
> > > or what they did in south America?
> >
> > But that was a different era. The Cold War is over.
>
> Agree the cold war is over but US defense budget is going up.
During the 1950s the U.S. defense budget averaged around 10% of GDP.
During the 1980s it was about about 5 or 6%.
Now its about 3%.
That's a pretty substantial drop!
http://www.csis.org/mideast/reports/USDefSpend1499.html
> CIA budget is going up. Radio free Asia started operation in 1996
> dispite the cold war was over.
It's true after TAM there was strong sentiment
in the U.S. to support democracy in PRC. You
may find that condescending or meddling,
but is it the same as sabotage or cold war?
bud_s...@my-deja.com
> > > Name me one prominent Tibet activist that agrees with you.
> >
> > I can not.
>
> See what I mean.
> Most of them are not interested in peace. They want a greater Tibet
> which make up 35% of China to be given to their CIA puppet, the Dalai
> Lama. Misery in Tibet is their political asset while they live
> comfortabily in the west.
>
> > And it may be even be most Tibet activists
> > think I'm speaking out of turn.
> > But when have negotiated settlements
> > given one side everything it's asked for?
> > IMHO, as a general rule activists are more
> > interested in expressing righteousness than
I suppose you could say that's the role of the political activists.
> Some of them may be misguided, but the moving force behind these
> activists is a well orchestrated campaign led by secret services of
USA,
> Britian and allies to sabortage China.
> If they are purely interseted in expressing righteousness why is there
> so little interest in the 100,000 Bhutanese refugees in the same
> region, Nepal.
********************************************
>
Have any posters said that? I have never heard
anyone say they hated Goldstein.
>
Well as I say it's your right to tell
or not to tell. But you don't have to reveal
your address or job to say whether you have
been to the West or not.
>
> I noticed that Bud himself is using a false name and never talk about
> his home town.
My name is 100% accurate!
> > > You have already discridited yourself.
Could you tell us a little more. Who and when?
> > > > > > Sure, lots of them are ignorant and apathetic. But why
> wouldn't
> > > > > > someone (besides Workers World Communist Party, that is)
> > > > > > have uncovered this alleged CURRENT manipulation and
> > manufacturing
> > > > > > of support by the CIA for Tibet?
> > > > >
> > > > > Opinion survey show American having
> > > > > negative feeling against China.
> > > > > I doubt if they mind CIA sarbotage China.
> > > >
> > > > They would have negative feelings about
> > > > a war with China I assure you,
> > > > and sabotage is an act of war.
> > >
> > > American have no knowledge of CIA's existence
> > > or what they did in south America?
> >
> > But that was a different era. The Cold War is over.
>
> Agree the cold war is over but US defense budget is going up.
During the 1950s the U.S. defense budget averaged around 10% of GDP.
During the 1980s it was about about 5 or 6%.
Now its about 3%.
That's a pretty substantial drop!
http://www.csis.org/mideast/reports/USDefSpend1499.html
> CIA budget is going up. Radio free Asia started operation in 1996
> dispite the cold war was over.
It's true after TAM there was strong sentiment
in the U.S. to support democracy in PRC. You
may find that condescending or meddling,
but is it the same as sabotage or cold war?
> Of course one essential ingridient of a