Vote Libertarian ??? (was Re: cantidates positions on RKBA
Jordan Marc Kossack
-
- "Is giving a symbolic vote to a party which can't (realistically)
- win the 1992 election worth risking the *very* likely possibility
- of the resultant election of Clinton to the Office of President,
You're damn right it is. I can not, in good conscience, vote
for a scoundrel who has repeatedly lied. Read my lips, know new
taxes. Too, Bush failed to honor his campaign promise to veto all
anti-gun legislation. In fact, I can't (off hand) think of _ANY_
campaign promise that el Presidente was honored. I'm sure there
must be some, but I don't know of any. Too, there's the Quayle thing.
If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
--
Jordan Kossack | n5qvi | kos...@rice.edu | +1 713 270 9056
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Why change Bush in the middle of a screw? Re-elect George in `92
Brett J. Vickers
> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
--
bvic...@ics.uci.edu | "Wherever there is an interest and power to do wrong,
br...@ucippro.bitnet | wrong will generally be done, and not less readily
| by a powerful and interested party than by a powerful
| and interested prince." - James Madison
Mikhail Zeleny
bvic...@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>kos...@rice.edu writes:
K:
>> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
>> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
>> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
>> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
BJV:
>Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
>Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
>--
>bvic...@ics.uci.edu | "Wherever there is an interest and power to do wrong,
>br...@ucippro.bitnet | wrong will generally be done, and not less readily
> | by a powerful and interested party than by a powerful
> | and interested prince." - James Madison
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien? Qu'est-ce qui est laid? Harvard :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible... doesn't :
: Connais pas! Connais pas! think :
: so :
: Mikhail Zeleny :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 (617) 661-8151 :
: email zel...@zariski.harvard.edu or zel...@HUMA1.BITNET :
: :
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Larry Cipriani
>Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
>antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
Come again ? Libertarians [as a whole] believe in anti-semitism ?!?
How on earth did you come up with that ? Are you confusing Libertarians
with LaRouchians ? There are probably a few anti-semites in the LP,
just like there are in the Republican and Democratic parties, but
that's no indictment of the LP.
The only thing the LP says about Israel is that it, like all nations,
would be cut off from US foreign aid and military intervention on it's
behalf. There was a move in the LP once to make an exemption for
Israeli foreign aid, but it was voted down.
--
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or l...@cbvox1.att.com
"I just love the smell of gunpowder." -- Bugs Bunny
Mikhail Zeleny
l...@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>In article <1992Jan27....@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zel...@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
MZ:
>>Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
>>antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
LC:
>Come again ? Libertarians [as a whole] believe in anti-semitism ?!?
>How on earth did you come up with that ? Are you confusing Libertarians
>with LaRouchians ? There are probably a few anti-semites in the LP,
>just like there are in the Republican and Democratic parties, but
>that's no indictment of the LP.
Get some nitrous oxide, -- your sense of humor just might improve.
LC:
>The only thing the LP says about Israel is that it, like all nations,
>would be cut off from US foreign aid and military intervention on it's
>behalf. There was a move in the LP once to make an exemption for
>Israeli foreign aid, but it was voted down.
How amusing to see so many intelligent people buy the Libertarian crap
lock, stock, and barrel. Libertarianism is a Republican joke. If elected
against all odds, those people would fuck you just like Ron and George did.
Get a life, be an anarchist, don't vote for parties. Get the ballots to
carry a NOTA box, and just vote the fuckers out of the office, without
replacing them with a new bunch of parasites. No government is good
government.
>--
>Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or l...@cbvox1.att.com
>"I just love the smell of gunpowder." -- Bugs Bunny
Larry Cipriani
>Get some nitrous oxide, -- your sense of humor just might improve.
I've had it, just made everything look green and made me dizzy. :-|
>How amusing to see so many intelligent people buy the Libertarian crap
>lock, stock, and barrel. Libertarianism is a Republican joke. If elected
>against all odds, those people would fuck you just like Ron and George did.
I'll take my chances.
>Get a life, be an anarchist, don't vote for parties. Get the ballots to
>carry a NOTA box, and just vote the fuckers out of the office, without
>replacing them with a new bunch of parasites. No government is good
>government.
Like it or not, you can't escape government. It's whatever the biggest
gorilla on the block is. And there always is a gorilla around.
Phil G. Fraering
>In article <2983AE1...@ics.uci.edu>
>bvic...@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>>kos...@rice.edu writes:
>K:
>>> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
>>> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
>>> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
>>> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
>BJV:
>>Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
>>Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
>Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
>antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
It isn't. Would you like it if I said it was a traditional
Russian attitude? Or a traditional Zeleny attitude?
Since some of the Dems were against the gulf war, and therefore
in agreement with Buchanan, I suppose they're antisemites too?
Welcome to my kill file! I hope you and Mark Holohan are happy there.
--
Phil Fraering p...@nasa12.usl.edu 318/365-5418 And you know, my cat was telling
me about her cryptology class, and she thinks Rabin-Modulus:
OePmAz2+5fQLeOvpoRXDDOkF1SP/JzyhDC/X2fYtCprSUUMj8lwyXjsLcSBZ78zE
dJUHiVYjxcP8chq7+NHdLgekatz3FdSwaXUu+IKI4FDyHqYa7TLnVykdRlY=
would be a good public key. Of course, I don't know anything about the
subject.
Larry Desoto
[...]
>Get a life, be an anarchist, don't vote for parties. Get the ballots to
>carry a NOTA box, and just vote the fuckers out of the office, without
>replacing them with a new bunch of parasites. No government is good
>government.
I have advocated having a line "None - office vacant" for each elective
post for some years (no smiley - serious suggestion). It would certainly
give a much better indication of what the voters really want. Right
now, the elected officials assume that anything over 50.0009% of the
votes cast give them a mandate for all their screwy ideas and the large
percentage that don't vote are too apathetic to care. I suspect that a
number of people don't vote because they find either choice equally
repugnant. It might be very instructive to all of us to see what
percentage of the vote "none of the above" gets.
I certainly don't think leaving an elective office vacant for a term is
going to hurt any of us.
--
Larry | Thunder makes all the noise;
| lightning gets the job done.
lar...@milton.washington.edu
I have my opinion; the university has its own.
Ron Dippold
>Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
>antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
Did someone tip your rock over again? The only thing you could call
anti-Semetic about Libertarian positions, in your wildest conspiracy
wet dreams, is the opposition of foreign aid to Israel. This is the
case because Libertarians oppose government foreign aid to anyone,
period.
Please, tell us some more of those traditional Libertarian attitudes
which spring from the mists of antiquity.
--
Sucks syntax.
Mikhail Zeleny
>zel...@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>>In article <2983AE1...@ics.uci.edu>
>>bvic...@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>>>kos...@rice.edu writes:
K:
>>>> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
>>>> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
>>>> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
>>>> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
BJV:
>>>Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
>>>Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
MZ:
>>Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
>>antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
PF:
>It isn't. Would you like it if I said it was a traditional
>Russian attitude? Or a traditional Zeleny attitude?
What a sensitive git! If your lobotomy is interfering with your sense of
humor, give yourself a tickle, and have a quiet giggle.
PF:
>Since some of the Dems were against the gulf war, and therefore
>in agreement with Buchanan, I suppose they're antisemites too?
Suppose while you can, monkey boy.
PF:
>Welcome to my kill file! I hope you and Mark Holohan are happy there.
What, no more love letters?
>--
>Phil Fraering p...@nasa12.usl.edu 318/365-5418 And you know, my cat was telling
>me about her cryptology class, and she thinks Rabin-Modulus:
> OePmAz2+5fQLeOvpoRXDDOkF1SP/JzyhDC/X2fYtCprSUUMj8lwyXjsLcSBZ78zE
> dJUHiVYjxcP8chq7+NHdLgekatz3FdSwaXUu+IKI4FDyHqYa7TLnVykdRlY=
>would be a good public key. Of course, I don't know anything about the
>subject.
Matthias Ulrich Neeracher
>kos...@rice.edu writes:
>> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
>> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
>> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
>> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
>
>Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
>Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
"Give me liberty or give me Pat !"
Matthias
-----
Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
"There once was an Age of Reason, but we've progressed beyond it."
-- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged_
Stupendous Man
> In article <2983AE1...@ics.uci.edu>
> bvic...@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>
>>kos...@rice.edu writes:
>
> K:
>>> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
>>> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
>>> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
>>> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
>
> BJV:
>>Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
>>Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
>
> Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
> antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
>
? You mean the Democrats.
:\
Brett
===============================================================================
Proconsul Computer Consulting CHING!
Better, Cheaper, Faster (Pick any two :)
===============================================================================
Michael McClary
>lock, stock, and barrel. Libertarianism is a Republican joke.
Crafty, those Republicans. Setting up a bogus party to split the vote
of people who otherwise are more likely to vote Republican than Democrat
has got to be their smartest move in decades.
B-)
James Woodyatt
Were it not for that smiley, I could take this as a serious statement of
well-informed opinion.
(I'd tack a smiley on myself so you'd know that this was a joke, but I
don't use them.)
--
James Woodyatt Space Systems/Loral Palo Alto, CA ba...@cutter.ssd.loral.com
it's dog eat dog and cat eat mouse
and mouse eat cheese and cheese just smells
--Stan Ridgway
Mikhail Zeleny
mic...@xanadu.com (Michael McClary) writes:
>In article <1992Jan27....@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zel...@widder.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
MZ:
>>How amusing to see so many intelligent people buy the Libertarian crap
>>lock, stock, and barrel. Libertarianism is a Republican joke.
MM:
>Crafty, those Republicans. Setting up a bogus party to split the vote
>of people who otherwise are more likely to vote Republican than Democrat
>has got to be their smartest move in decades.
>
> B-)
All right: read the above as `Libertarianism is joke Republicanism'. Do
you stand in need of any more explanations?
Mikhail Zeleny
de...@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
>In article <1992Jan27....@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>zel...@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>> In article <2983AE1...@ics.uci.edu>
>> bvic...@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>>>kos...@rice.edu writes:
K:
>>>> If the Republican party wants my vote come November, they had
>>>> better run someone like Pat Buchanan rather than our current Prez,
>>>> George "Kindler and Gentler Fuck" Bush. Otherwise, I'll have to
>>>> block vote Libertarian across the board. Read MY lips, GOP.
BJV:
>>>Pat "Protectionism" Buchanan is about as Libertarian as Mikhail Gorbachev.
>>>Are you sure you know what you want to vote for? You sound confused.
MZ:
>> Maybe he likes Pat "The Gulf War is an Israeli Plot" Buchanan's
>> antisemitism, a traditional Libertarian attitude.
B:
> ? You mean the Democrats.
>
>:\
Mea culpa: in the future, I shall unfailingly punctuate all expressions
of my irony with an idiot-proof signal thereof. NOT!
>Brett
>===============================================================================
>Proconsul Computer Consulting CHING!
>Better, Cheaper, Faster (Pick any two :)
>===============================================================================
Mikhail Zeleny
l...@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>In article <1992Jan27....@husc3.harvard.edu>
zel...@widder.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
MZ:
>>Get a life, be an anarchist, don't vote for parties. Get the ballots to
>>carry a NOTA box, and just vote the fuckers out of the office, without
>>replacing them with a new bunch of parasites. No government is good
>>government.
LC:
>Like it or not, you can't escape government. It's whatever the biggest
>gorilla on the block is. And there always is a gorilla around.
Forgive me from disregarding your folk wisdom, but I refuse to feed your
gorilla. In any case, it's only got a two-inch dick, so I'm assured of
winning any pissing contest it might instigate. "We shall replace
government of people with management of things."
>--
>Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or l...@cbvox1.att.com
>"I just love the smell of gunpowder." -- Bugs Bunny
Mikhail Zeleny
lar...@milton.u.washington.edu (Larry Desoto) writes:
>zel...@widder.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
MZ:
>>Get a life, be an anarchist, don't vote for parties. Get the ballots to
>>carry a NOTA box, and just vote the fuckers out of the office, without
>>replacing them with a new bunch of parasites. No government is good
>>government.
LD:
>I have advocated having a line "None - office vacant" for each elective
>post for some years (no smiley - serious suggestion). It would certainly
>give a much better indication of what the voters really want. Right
>now, the elected officials assume that anything over 50.0009% of the
>votes cast give them a mandate for all their screwy ideas and the large
>percentage that don't vote are too apathetic to care. I suspect that a
>number of people don't vote because they find either choice equally
>repugnant. It might be very instructive to all of us to see what
>percentage of the vote "none of the above" gets.
Good for you. How can we get this on the ballots?
LD:
>I certainly don't think leaving an elective office vacant for a term is
>going to hurt any of us.
Nor will leaving them vacant forever.
>--
>Larry | Thunder makes all the noise;
> | lightning gets the job done.
>lar...@milton.washington.edu
>I have my opinion; the university has its own.
Larry Cipriani
>
>Forgive me from disregarding your folk wisdom, but I refuse to feed your
>gorilla.
It isn't folk wisdom, that's life. It doesn't ask for food, it
just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
Beleiving in anarchism is like beliveing in a perfect vaccuum.
Russ Anderson
Crafty, that Pat Buchannan. Starting a bogus candidacy to spit on George
Bush and convince the public that conservatism (and he hopes the Republican
party) stands for protectionism and isolationism has to be the smartest
move in decades... for the Democrats.
--
Russ Anderson | Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------ upon my employer or anyone else. (c) 1991
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
C. D. Tavares
> LD:
> >I certainly don't think leaving an elective office vacant for a term is
> >going to hurt any of us.
>
> Nor will leaving them vacant forever.
Hey, EXCUSE ME. We here in the "Greatest Nation on Earth" (thanks, Brian,
or Phillip, or whoever bestowed this accolade on us) have found something
even BETTER than leaving chickenshit offices unfilled.
We fill them with Dan Quayle!
--
c...@pdp.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR c...@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Mikhail Zeleny
l...@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>In article <1992Jan28....@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zel...@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
MZ:
>>Forgive me from disregarding your folk wisdom, but I refuse to feed your
>>gorilla.
LC:
>It isn't folk wisdom, that's life. It doesn't ask for food, it
>just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
LC:
>Beleiving in anarchism is like beliveing in a perfect vaccuum.
Perfect vacuum is a useful abstraction, whereas Libertarianism is but a
useless illusion. We already have a randroid in charge of the Federal
Reserve; anyone wishing to know what a Libertarian government would look
like, is hereby invited to extrapolate the remarkable success of the
current US monetary policy to the rest of its political affairs.
>--
>Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or l...@cbvox1.att.com
>"I just love the smell of gunpowder." -- Bugs Bunny
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
I hear it was Daffy Duck.
Jordan Marc Kossack
- >just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
-
- I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
Watch with interest ... and root for you.
--
Jordan M Kossack | "From each according to his naivete,
kos...@rice.edu | to each according to his greed"
(713) 270-9056 | -- Jeff Orrok
Mikhail Zeleny
>In article <1992Jan28....@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>zel...@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
LC:
>- >It isn't folk wisdom, that's life. It doesn't ask for food, it
>- >just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
MZ:
>- I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
JMC:
> Watch with interest ... and root for you.
That's the trouble with the MTV generation: everyone wants to be a
spectator. How about pulling out your dick and joining in the water
sports? All are welcome! Stand-up, aimed urination technique for
women will be communicated on request.
>--
> Jordan M Kossack | "From each according to his naivete,
> kos...@rice.edu | to each according to his greed"
> (713) 270-9056 | -- Jeff Orrok
>
Vote the fuckers out of the office!
Matthew T. Russotto
>MZ:
>>- I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
>
>JMC:
>> Watch with interest ... and root for you.
>
>That's the trouble with the MTV generation: everyone wants to be a
>spectator. How about pulling out your dick and joining in the water
>sports? All are welcome! Stand-up, aimed urination technique for
>women will be communicated on request.
Well, you see, this gorilla is going to busy ripping you limb from limb, and
I wouldn't want to distract him.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@eng.umd.edu russ...@wam.umd.edu
Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons! -- The Simpsons
Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force.
(not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice)
Ryan A. Noguchi
>- >It isn't folk wisdom, that's life. It doesn't ask for food, it
>- >just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
>-
>- I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
>
> Watch with interest ... and root for you.
'Ask not what you can do to your government;
ask what your government can do to *you*.'
With apologies to J.F.K.
- Ryan Noguchi rnog...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
====================================================================
Who killed the Country? "We," said the people--
Standing idly by, while we watched it die. We killed the Country."
**************************** "Who Killed the Country?", Frank Jacobs
====================================================================
Ryan A. Noguchi
>- >It isn't folk wisdom, that's life. It doesn't ask for food, it
>- >just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
>- I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
> Watch with interest ... and root for you.
June Genis
>lar...@milton.u.washington.edu (Larry Desoto) writes:
>>I have advocated having a line "None - office vacant" for each elective
>>post for some years (no smiley - serious suggestion). It would certainly
>>give a much better indication of what the voters really want. Right
>>now, the elected officials assume that anything over 50.0009% of the
>>votes cast give them a mandate for all their screwy ideas and the large
>>percentage that don't vote are too apathetic to care. I suspect that a
>>number of people don't vote because they find either choice equally
>>repugnant. It might be very instructive to all of us to see what
>>percentage of the vote "none of the above" gets.
>
>Good for you. How can we get this on the ballots?
Only by initiative or by electing Libertarians. NOTA is always a
choice on Libertarian internal ballots. The Demopublican (and
especially the (un)Democrats blocked out attempt to have it made an
option on the LP primary ballot.
/June
Larry Cipriani
>In article <1992Jan28....@cbnews.cb.att.com>
>l...@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>
>LC:
>>It isn't folk wisdom, that's life. It doesn't ask for food, it
>>just takes it. And it's not my gorilla.
>
>I piss on the gorilla. What are you going to do about it?
Nothing! What do I care if the gorilla beats the daylights out of you.
>>"I just love the smell of gunpowder." -- Bugs Bunny
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
>I hear it was Daffy Duck.
They both said it.
Roy Stuart Levin
Zeleny comments:
"MM:
>Crafty, those Republicans. Setting up a bogus party to split the vote
>of people who otherwise are more likely to vote Republican than Democrat
>has got to be their smartest move in decades.
>
> B-)
All right: read the above as `Libertarianism is joke Republicanism'. Do
you stand in need of any more explanations?...etc."
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien? Qu'est-ce qui est laid? Harvard :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible... doesn't :
: Connais pas! Connais pas! think :
: so :
: Mikhail Zeleny :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 (617) 661-8151 :
: email zel...@zariski.harvard.edu or zel...@HUMA1.BITNET :
If this guy is serious he really does not understand the sincere idealism
and disenchantment of the people in the Libertarian movement who eye both
the democrats and republicans as deluded statists. Also, the idea that
the republicans set up the Libertarain party is ludicroous. As with many
3rd parties in our history, the party was born out of genuine disenchantment
and a concern for political ideals. The parties in power have more at stake
in behind the scenes power brokering and money grabbing.
As to claims that if Marrou/Lord would f*ck everyone just like any other
politicians if elected, that might indeed be true, but would still represent
personal inadequacy more than poor party goals. Basically the Libertarian party
is a refreshing anti-statist movement which still has more in common with
the ideals of the Founding Fathers than either major party.
Besides, if the Libertarian platforms were enacted their wouldn't be enough
govt left for them to f*ck us with.
Matthias Ulrich Neeracher
>Zeleny comments:
>>All right: read the above as `Libertarianism is joke Republicanism'. Do
>>you stand in need of any more explanations?...etc."
>and disenchantment of the people in the Libertarian movement who eye both
>the democrats and republicans as deluded statists.
I have to admit I really don't understand the sincere idealism of Ron Paul, who was
the Libertarian presidential candidate four years ago and now works for the
Buchanan campaign. Am I to assume that:
- Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertarians ?
- Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
- Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
- Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
Matthias
-----
Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
"He carried an automatic pistol in one pocket and a rabbit's
foot in the other" -- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged_
David Y Hollinden
> I have to admit I really don't understand the sincere idealism of Ron Paul,
> who was the Libertarian presidential candidate four years ago and now works
> for the Buchanan campaign. Am I to assume that:
>
> - Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertarians ?
> - Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
> - Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
> - Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
>
In each case, you are blaming all Libertarians for the actions of one
individual. Pretty strange tactic from someone with a Rand quote in their
sig file.
> Matthias
>
> -----
> Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
> "He carried an automatic pistol in one pocket and a rabbit's
> foot in the other" -- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged_
--
David Hollinden | The only organized political party with a
dhol...@dhsun.ece.uc.edu | Christian vision of morality is the
Repeal the 16th Amendment! | Libertarian Party. -- Walter E. Williams
Gary Strand
>- Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
Not at all close.
Glad to see you extrapolate from one "libertarian" to all libertarians. Can
we take this principle and expand it to all political parties? Since Duke
ran as a Republican, does that mean that all Republicans are neo-Nazi ex-KKK
scumbags? Since LaRouche is a Democrat, does that mean that Jesse Jackson is
also a neo-fascist who thinks that Queen Elizabeth is the overlord of the
worldwide drug empire?
If you're gonna bash Libertarians, you gotta do better than you have been. So
far, you've come across as nothing but an imbecile.
--
Gary Strand
stra...@ncar.ucar.edu
Danger
>> I have to admit I really don't understand the sincere idealism of Ron Paul,
>> who was the Libertarian presidential candidate four years ago and now works
>> for the Buchanan campaign. Am I to assume that:
>>
>> - Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertarians ?
>> - Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
>> - Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
>> - Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
>> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
More likely, he figured that he may have more of an effect
toward Libertarian ideals if he influenced Buchanan's
campaign.
--
************************************************************************
Thaddeus Krag Blayda bla...@acsu.buffalo.edu, v063...@ubvms.buffalo.edu
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Caution : DANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I may be crazy...But it might just be a lunatic you're looking for
Mikhail Zeleny
>Zeleny comments:
>
>
MM:
>>Crafty, those Republicans. Setting up a bogus party to split the vote
>>of people who otherwise are more likely to vote Republican than Democrat
>>has got to be their smartest move in decades.
>>
>> B-)
MZ:
>All right: read the above as `Libertarianism is joke Republicanism'. Do
>you stand in need of any more explanations?...etc."
RSL:
>If this guy is serious he really does not understand the sincere idealism
>and disenchantment of the people in the Libertarian movement who eye both
>the democrats and republicans as deluded statists. Also, the idea that
>the republicans set up the Libertarain party is ludicroous. As with many
>3rd parties in our history, the party was born out of genuine disenchantment
>and a concern for political ideals. The parties in power have more at stake
>in behind the scenes power brokering and money grabbing.
I suggest a thought experiment: replace `Libertarian' in your reply with
`Communist'; then tell me why it no longer makes the same kind of sense in
Russia circa 1905--1917.
RSL:
>As to claims that if Marrou/Lord would f*ck everyone just like any other
>politicians if elected, that might indeed be true, but would still represent
>personal inadequacy more than poor party goals. Basically the Libertarian party
>is a refreshing anti-statist movement which still has more in common with
>the ideals of the Founding Fathers than either major party.
You must be taking me for someone who gives a fuck about "the ideals of the
Founding Fathers". Remember Reagan's comparison of the contras to your
powdered-wig cronies?
RSL:
>Besides, if the Libertarian platforms were enacted their wouldn't be enough
>govt left for them to f*ck us with.
That's exactly what Marx claimed about communism...
: :
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Matthias Ulrich Neeracher
>In article <NEERI.92F...@iis.ethz.ch>,(Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>> I have to admit I really don't understand the sincere idealism of Ron Paul,
>> who was the Libertarian presidential candidate four years ago and now works
>> for the Buchanan campaign. Am I to assume that:
>>
>> - Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertarians ?
>> - Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
>> - Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
>> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
>
>individual.
And in article <15...@ncar.ucar.edu>, ga...@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
writes in response to my article:
>Not at all close.
>
>Glad to see you extrapolate from one "libertarian" to all libertarians. Can
>we take this principle and expand it to all political parties? Since Duke
>ran as a Republican, does that mean that all Republicans are neo-Nazi ex-KKK
>scumbags? Since LaRouche is a Democrat, does that mean that Jesse Jackson is
>also a neo-fascist who thinks that Queen Elizabeth is the overlord of the
>worldwide drug empire?
Your replies seem to indicate that you claim case one above is indeed true:
That Libertarian presidential candidates, at least the '88 candidate, are not
representative of Libertarians. Am I right to conclude that you both think the
Libertarian party picked a wrong candidate in '88 ? If so, how good are chances
that they picked a good candidate in '92 ?
(There might be the objection that the big parties also pick "wrong"
candidates, in the sense that they pick candidates that lose the elections. But
I'm not aware of any Democratic or Republican presidential candidate who
changed his party affiliation so quickly.)
Matthias
-----
Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard P. Feynman
Matthias Ulrich Neeracher
inappropriate for t.p.m and I don't read t.p.g]
In article <15...@ncar.ucar.edu> stra...@ncar.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>mn> Matthias Ulrich Neeracher
>
>mn> [...] Libertarian presidential candidates, at least the '88 candidate, are
>mn> not representative of Libertarians. Am I right to conclude that you both
>mn> think the Libertarian party picked a wrong candidate in '88 ? If so, how
>mn> good are chances that they picked a good candidate in '92 ?
>
> Apply the same analysis to the Republicans and Democrats. Were all GOPers
> happy with Herbert? Were all Democrats happy with Micky?
I'd say that most Republicans consider Bush to be representative of Republicans
and most Democrats consider Dukakis to be representative of Democrats. I'd say
that even LBJ, McGovern, and Nixon, maybe the more controversial top people of
these parties are still considered to be representative of their parties.
> I wasn't particular-
> ly happy with Paul in '88, but I was much happier with him than I was any
> other candidate from any other party.
>
> I also continue to believe your (self-judged) "damning" of Libertarians (and
> the LP in general) from Paul working for Buchanan as incredibly simplistic
> and juvenile.
Juvenile - I *am* rather young. Incredibly simplistic is somewhat strange
coming from a supporter of a party that tries to sell simple solutions to all
complex problems.
> Again, I would hesitate to claim all persons named "Matthias" are of the same
> ilk and stripe as you are,
If you claimed this, you'd make at least Matthew Russotto *quite* unhappy.
> but you *don't* show such restraint when claiming
> (explicitly!) that because of Paul, Libertarians are little more than GOPers
> in sheep's clothing, and more-repulsive GOPers at that, ie, Buchanan.
I didn't claim exactly that. I presented four possible explanations of a fact
that you don't dispute (that Ron Paul, who ran 4 years ago for the Libertarians,
now works for Buchanan (1)):
>> - Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertarians ?
>> - Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
>> - Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
>> - Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
>> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
I did this in response to a posting by r...@well.sf.ca.us (Roy Stuart Levin) who
wrote about
>the sincere idealism
>and disenchantment of the people in the Libertarian movement who eye both
>the democrats and republicans as deluded statists. (2)
So, from (1), I had to conclude that either
- (2) is not true or that
- Libertarian idealism isn't that big or that
- Libertarians don't see Republicans as such deluded statists after all or that
- Libertarians are not very good at picking candidates that represent their
ideals (An accusation that can't be made for the major parties since they
hardly seem to have any ideals at all)
Matthias
-----
Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
"There once was an Age of Reason, but we've progressed beyond it."
Tom Horsley
And he was right! Look at the former Soviet Union, the state *did* wither
away...
--
======================================================================
domain: taho...@csd.harris.com USMail: Tom Horsley
uucp: ...!uunet!hcx1!tahorsley 511 Kingbird Circle
Delray Beach, FL 33444
+==== Censorship is the only form of Obscenity ======================+
| (Wait, I forgot government tobacco subsidies...) |
+====================================================================+
Bob Bickford
>I have to admit I really don't understand the sincere idealism of Ron Paul,
> who was the Libertarian presidential candidate four years ago and now works
> for the Buchanan campaign. Am I to assume that:
>
>- Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertarians ?
Our presidential candidates are about as representative of
the Party at large as are those of the other nationwide American
political parties. What we lose in variety of choices is more
than made up for by the great cohesiveness of our members: while
they come from all classes and all political backgrounds, they
tend, much more than the older two parties, to be in strong
agreement about certain core values. The debates center around
the applications of those values in certain difficult areas.
Ron Paul, to be specific, was anti-abortion while the Party
membership is split on the issue with a majority agreeing with the
platform position (pro-choice). Ron is a physician, and a former
Republican congressman (8 years). I assume that his long and deep
attachment to that Party is still a strong influence on his
outlook, which may (partly) explain his support of Buchanan.
>- Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
I assume this was a throw-away sneer remark; it certainly
doesn't appear to merit a serious reply. You should ask Ron
whether his ideals have changed, if that's what you're implying.
>- Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
Definitely not. Besides being a protectionist, he is very
typically Republican in matters that we (Libertarians) consider
outside the realm of government involvement. His anti- semitism,
if it exists (I haven't seen an interview of him where this came up,
so I can't speak from personal knowledge), would be anathema to
the really overwhelming majority of Libertarians: we tend to view
with disdain the idea that one should hate a class of people
because of their membership in that class.
>- Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
Another throw-away sneer remark, with one exception: there is,
or was, a group of Libertarians who did "bolt back to the
Republicans where they belong", that being the LROC people.
(LROC = Libertarian Republican Organizing Committee)
Without going into details, they made a lot of noise about how
stupid we were to work outside the two older Parties and when we
didn't agree they left the Party. I think we're much better off
without them, actually. Also, the idea that Libertarians have any
more in common with the Republicans than with the Democrats, while
eagerly fostered by these and other people, is simply not true: I
could never in a million years imagine myself registering as a
Republican, and my wife (an ex-Democrat) feels the same way.
The difference is, we're both feeling the same way about the
Democrats lately as well. Both older parties are a nest of liars
and thieves, and the sooner the country leaves them in the dustbin
of history the better off we'll be.
>-----
>Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
--
Robert Bickford r...@well.sf.ca.us
Vice-Chair, Libertarian Party /-------------------------------------\
of Marin County (CA) | Don't Blame Me: I Voted Libertarian |
\-------------------------------------/
Dave Polewka
Bickford chides Zeleny:
>If you will be so kind as to take a moment to read the published
>guidelines for using the net (usually posted regularly in an
>administrative newsgroup), I think you will note that the maximum
>recommended length for a .signature is 4 lines. ...............
EGO ===> Easing Guidelines Out
^ ^ ^
.
--
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
Roy Stuart Levin
Zany Zelany our resident "anarchist" cites history :
"You must be taking me for someone who gives a fuck about "the ideals of the
Founding Fathers". Remember Reagan's comparison of the contras to your
powdered-wig cronies?
RSL:
>Besides, if the Libertarian platforms were enacted their wouldn't be enough
>govt left for them to f*ck us with.
That's exactly what Marx claimed about communism...etc."
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien? Qu'est-ce qui est laid? Harvard :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible... doesn't :
: Connais pas! Connais pas! think :
: so :
: Mikhail Zeleny :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 (617) 661-8151 :
: email zel...@zariski.harvard.edu or zel...@HUMA1.BITNET :
: :
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Well since Zelany is getting hysterically historical I'll post my favorite
quotation of the week from one of my favorite historical figures, the
sublime Plato (alledgedly paraphrasing the divine Socrates):
"...the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always
the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most
eager, the worst..."
Republic VII.
This brings to mind the anonymous and efficent Swiss politicians who no one
ever hears about contrasted with our own collection of hat in the ringers.
the primates of our primaries anyone? an eager pack of power hungry baboons
if I've ever seen one.
and remember, "...behind every Bush, there's a Quayle."
Ron Dippold
>zel...@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>>`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
>>: Qu'est-ce qui est bien? Qu'est-ce qui est laid? Harvard :
>>: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible... doesn't :
>>: Connais pas! Connais pas! think :
>>: so :
>>: Mikhail Zeleny :
>>: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 :
>>: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 (617) 661-8151 :
>>: email zel...@zariski.harvard.edu or zel...@HUMA1.BITNET :
>>: :
>>'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
><flame on>
>THIS IS TOO GODDAMNED MANY LINES!!!!
><flame off>
But he keeps us so happy in alt.fan.warlord...
--
It's the good girls who keep diaries; the bad girls never have the time.
Al Date
>mn> Matthias Ulrich Neeracher
>
>gs> I continue to believe your (self-judged) "damning" of Libertarians (and
>gs> the LP in general) from Paul working for Buchanan as incredibly simplistic
>gs> and juvenile.
>
>gs> [...] but you *don't* show restraint when claiming (explicitly!) that be-
>gs> cause of Paul, Libertarians are little more than GOPers in sheep's cloth-
>gs> ing, and more-repulsive GOPers at that, ie, Buchanan.
>
>mn> I didn't claim exactly that. I presented four possible explanations of a
>mn> fact that you don't dispute (that Ron Paul, who ran 4 years ago for the
>mn> Libertarians, now works for Buchanan (1)):
>mn> - Libertarian presidential candidates are not representative of Libertar-
>mn> ians?
>mn> - Libertarian idealism has a half life of about 4.5 months ?
>mn> - Pat Buchanan is a Libertarian in Republican clothing ?
>mn> - Libertarians are opportunists who see no big problem in returning to the
>mn> bosom of the Republican party, where their true home is ?
>
Ron Paul isnt opposed to working both sides of the fence. He wants to help
give conservative Republicans a chance to topple Bush, by lining up behind
a "name-brand" Republican, who he happens to also like on a personal level.
This is a classic flanking move.
According to Ron Paul's latest mailer regarding his cable TV series
"At Issue," Ron Paul explains it as `being asked to be Buchanan's economic
advisor and not being able to say no.' There is simply no other credible
opposition to Pres. Mush within the Republican Party. Paul goes on to
describe the primaries as the place where the real action is, usually making
the general election a foregone conclusion. [This isnt totally true in
New Hampshire, where cross-ballotting is allowed, but that is the
exception to the rule.]
So, for the PRIMARIES, Paul has joined with the so-called paleoconservatives.
This is hardball politics, and the target is Bush's jugular.
Personally, I can UNDERSTAND why some people might join in unholy
alliances to get Bush out of there.
If Bush survives the Buchanan challenge, as is likely, then the conservatives
and libertarians BOTH will be effectively disenfranchised, and at THAT point
these disenchanted voters will have little choice but to cast their support
in the general election for the Libertarians (or for whoever else struggles onto
the ballot), if they want to vote against the major party choices.
Marrou will still be there, the only consistent, credible anti-govt candidate.
But it is wishful thinking to imagine Marrou getting much play in the
primaries, when the major parties are running wild with internecine
warfare and juicy scandals. The people get what they deserve, it seems.
Paul still identifies himself as a libertarian,
and he readily acknowledges that there are disagreements between him
and Buchanan, specifically on free trade. They agree on an America
First foreign policy, and on the whole anti-government ethos.
But US News reports that these personal ties are moving Buchanan idealogically,
as Buchanan now says that he identifies more with CATO than with Heritage, when
referring to Washington libertarian vs. conservative think-tanks. (!)
And Ron Paul defends Buchanan against the charges of antisemitism, btw.
I personally dont think Buchanan is a raging bigot. He is probably just
in possession of certain insensitive mindsets. He is CERTAINLY not a David
Duke, and if he adopts (and can sell) a few key libertarian positions,
like choosing the Constitution above the drug war, then I might
consider supporting him as the only real hope for dethroning Bush--
in the primaries.
If I have to choose between the pure libertarian who is probably unelectable
and the 90% libertarian who is electable, I will still feel a whole lot better
than having to choose between the two non-libertarians (8-)...
--Al Date
Vote Libertarian--do it for your kids' future.