Dutch murder rate almost six times United States'
William A. Levinson
control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
> An estimated 5,981 people -- an average of 16 a day -- were killed by their doctors without their consent… And these numbers do not measure
> several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled infants, terminally ill children, and mental patients. [Notice that Hitler
> began his genocidal programs with these groups, not Jews, Gypsies, or other ethnic minorities.]
> …The path to the death culture began when doctors learned to think like accountants. As the cost of socialized medicine in the Netherlands grew,
> doctors were lectured about the climbing cost of care. In many hospitals, signs were posted indicating how much old-age treatments cost taxpayers
> ("The Dutch Way of Death," By Richard Miniter 04/25/2001 The Wall Street Journal Page A20 ).
>
5981 murders per year ("putting someone to death involuntarily," in the
absence of a conviction and sentence for a capital crime, is the
definition of murder) in a population of about 15.5 million equals a
rate of 38.6 murders per 100,000.
United States' homicide (murder, manslaughter, justifiable homicide)
rate = 6.62 homicides per 100,000. The Dutch murder rate is therefore
5.8 times the United States' homicide rate.
The Wall Street Journal article points out, by the way, that Holland was
the only Nazi-occupied country in which doctors universally ignored or
disobeyed Nazi orders to euthanize patients. It looks like European
socialized medicine succeeded where Gestapo coercion failed. Sieg Heil!
-Bill
Ewan Jackson Ph.D.
<wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> =====
>The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
>control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
>great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
>
The homicide rate in Australia (where we have strict gun laws) is 1.9 per
100,000 - one of the lowest homicide rates in the world.
Check out my source: http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/statbrochure.html
The homicide rate in the U.S. is set at 6.3 per
100,000 (United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation.)
Both stats - 1999.
Now, what were you saying about guns preventing homicide?
Ewan
Ewan
--
"I don't value insults and attacks."
- Joe Bruno in alt.revisionism on 07/12/01
"Go back in the cesspool, you scum-sucking filthy worm. Make sure you pull
the cover back on top so your fumes don't pollute the air, scumsucking
worm... I am not Tamie, you slimy piece of dogdoo. You blow dead dogs."
- Joe Bruno in alt.revisionism on 07/07/01
Osmo Ronkanen
William A. Levinson <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
>The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
>control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
>great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
>
That is total nonsense. The homicide rate in the Netherlands is about a
quarter or a third of U.S. rate
>
>> An estimated 5,981 people -- an average of 16 a day -- were killed by their doctors without their consent… And these numbers do not measure
Total nonsense and right wing lies.
>> several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled infants, terminally ill children, and mental patients. [Notice that Hitler
>> began his genocidal programs with these groups, not Jews, Gypsies, or other ethnic minorities.]
>> …The path to the death culture began when doctors learned to think like accountants. As the cost of socialized medicine in the Netherlands grew,
>> doctors were lectured about the climbing cost of care. In many hospitals, signs were posted indicating how much old-age treatments cost taxpayers
>> ("The Dutch Way of Death," By Richard Miniter 04/25/2001 The Wall Street Journal Page A20 ).
>>
>
The Wall Street rag is not a credible reference.
Osmo
betweentheeyes
there in AU?
Maybe you'll be lucky enough to never be one of the 1.9 per 100,000. Me?
I'll carry and regardless of where I live, my odds of joining the 1.9 or 6.x
or 4.y in 100,000 are less then yours.
Get back to us when the AU population approaches 260 million. Maybe then we
will have something to compare.
ps. You've got 12 posts in TPG, and only 1.9 out of 100,000 are on topic
... try to raise your numbers
"Ewan Jackson Ph.D." <little...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
news:3B6C...@MailAndNews.com...
<snip>
Ewan Jackson Ph.D.
<between...@supportingthe2nd.com> =====
>How many industrial Cities with a population of greater than 1 million are
>there in AU?
Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne. I suppose the answer is 5.
>Maybe you'll be lucky enough to never be one of the 1.9 per 100,000. Me?
>I'll carry and regardless of where I live, my odds of joining the 1.9 or 6.x
>or 4.y in 100,000 are less then yours.
Incredible. A sentence which makes no sense at all.
>Get back to us when the AU population approaches 260 million. Maybe then we
>will have something to compare.
You have only the most superficial understanding of what constitutes a
homicide rate.
Hint: the total populations of the two nations have no bearing on the
homicide
rate. Population compression together with other causes of crime (poverty
etc.)
may effect the rate, but population alone does not.
>ps. You've got 12 posts in TPG, and only 1.9 out of 100,000 are on topic
>... try to raise your numbers
Try to fuck off. You have not earned the right to speak to me. Instead of
spamming the group with your obnoxious net-cop posturing "topic topic topic"
bullshit, perhaps you'd like to do something useful and shoot yourself in
the head with one of your fucking guns.
KILLFILE
Fucking asshole.
betweentheeyes
"Ewan Jackson Ph.D." <little...@MailAndNews.com><snip>
Todd
betweentheeyes <between...@supportingthe2nd.com> wrote in message
news:9k8n13$ivn$1...@suaar1ac.prod.compuserve.com...
> ps. You've got 12 posts in TPG, and only 1.9 out of 100,000 are on topic
> ... try to raise your numbers
Now now, you know rules, regs and ethics don't matter to those libs. Its
only their intentions that count. It doesn't matter that someones father may
die because he not allowed to carry a gun and defend himself against a
criminal that got his illegally anyway, the that they(the liberals) care
thats important
Mort Davis
Ewan Jackson Ph.D. wrote in message <3B6C...@MailAndNews.com>...
>>===== Original Message From "William A. Levinson"
><wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> =====
>>The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
>>control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
>>great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
>>
>
>The homicide rate in Australia (where we have strict gun laws) is 1.9 per
>100,000 - one of the lowest homicide rates in the world.
>Check out my source: http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/statbrochure.html
>
>The homicide rate in the U.S. is set at 6.3 per
>100,000 (United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation.)
>
>Both stats - 1999.
>
>Now, what were you saying about guns preventing homicide?
>
>Ewan
>
Explain why:
Murder in the USA is at a 30-year low.
Cops killed in the line of duty in the USA is at a 25-year low.
All crime in the USA has been declining over the past decade.
Explain how this is true DESPITE the fact that there are more guns in the
hands of USA citizens than ever before in USA history.
Explain also, why the 33 states out of 50 that have CCW laws have not broken
out in a mass of "gunfights in the streets" as predicted by edumicated
idiot, such as yourself.
-*MORT*-
Mort Davis
Ewan Jackson Ph.D. wrote in message <3B71...@MailAndNews.com>...
Higher and Deeper. Lots of words, zero intelligent content.
What a maroon.
-*MORT*-
Ewan Jackson Ph.D.
>Ewan Jackson Ph.D. wrote in message <3B6C...@MailAndNews.com>...
>>>===== Original Message From "William A. Levinson"
>><wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> =====
>>>The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
>>>control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
>>>great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
>>>
>>
>>The homicide rate in Australia (where we have strict gun laws) is 1.9 per
>>100,000 - one of the lowest homicide rates in the world.
>>Check out my source: http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/statbrochure.html
>>
>>The homicide rate in the U.S. is set at 6.3 per
>>100,000 (United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation.)
>>
>>Both stats - 1999.
>>
>>Now, what were you saying about guns preventing homicide?
>>
>>Ewan
>>
>
>Explain why:
>
>Murder in the USA is at a 30-year low.
For the sake of the argument, I will assume what you are saying is true.
Now I need some statistics to make a judgement on why crime has diminished.
The causes of crime are not limited simply to availability of firearms.
Population compression, poverty and government expenditure on law
enforcement
are some of the other variables that we must take into consideration when
discussing changes in crime rate. At a guess, I would say that reduced
poverty
is the reason behind this diminishment in crime - i understand that the
USA's
economy is much stronger than it has been in the past.
>Cops killed in the line of duty in the USA is at a 25-year low.
Explanation as above.
>All crime in the USA has been declining over the past decade.
Explanation as above.
>Explain how this is true DESPITE the fact that there are more guns in the
>hands of USA citizens than ever before in USA history.
As above. Look at the causes of crime. Crime has reduced in spite of, not
because of, gun ownership.
Mort Davis
Ewan Jackson Ph.D. wrote in message <3B72...@MailAndNews.com>...
Try the United States Government statistics, PHD. The crime rates, muder
rates, ciops killed in line of duty, have all made deadline news.
Crime has reduced because of increase gownership. No fun trying to do crimes
when your intended victims shoot back.
-*MORT*- Ewan Jacks: Prime example of why PHD means Pile it(shit) Higher and
Deeper, pictoral definition of "vapid" and a prime example of why Al Gore
lost the election.
d'geezer
One need only go to the page cited and look at the number. There is a
footnote to the homicide 1.9 figure. It says, murder and manslaughter
only. The US figure, the last time I checked includes suicides and
justifiable killings in defense by citizens and police. We only have
on average about gun related 4,000 to 5,000 murders per year.. Kind of
changes things, eh?
I wonder how long this lying anti gun loon garbage is going to
continue, and just what drives it.
d'geezer
lovak
> My My ... Mr Jackson has a temper.
>
> "Ewan Jackson Ph.D." <little...@MailAndNews.com><snip>
>
>
PhD...Piled Higher and Deeper
Osmo Ronkanen
d'geezer <nalap...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>One need only go to the page cited and look at the number. There is a
>footnote to the homicide 1.9 figure. It says, murder and manslaughter
>only. The US figure, the last time I checked includes suicides and
>justifiable killings in defense by citizens and police.
No homicide figures include suicides. As for justifiable killings, they
are small minority-
> We only have
>on average about gun related 4,000 to 5,000 murders per year.. Kind of
>changes things, eh?
>
Where did you get that?
Osmo
William A. Levinson
Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> In article <3B677E41...@ix.nospam4menetcom.com>,
> William A. Levinson <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
> >The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
> >control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
> >great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
> >
>
> That is total nonsense. The homicide rate in the Netherlands is about a
> quarter or a third of U.S. rate
>
> >
> >> An estimated 5,981 people -- an average of 16 a day -- were killed by their doctors without their consent… And these numbers do not measure
>
> Total nonsense and right wing lies.
>
> [old stuff deleted]
>
> The Wall Street rag is not a credible reference.
>
> Osmo
The Wall Street Journal is among the most prestigious newspapers in the United States. It's targeted to a college-educated audience and you'll find it
in the highest level executive offices in the country.
-Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend Second Amendment site
http://www.stentorian.com/antispam/ Anti-spam resources
Public notice to spammers: unsolicited COMMERCIAL BULK E-mail (UCE) to me constitutes consent for me to use or publish the content, and that of any
spammed Web sites, in any manner I wish. UCE is sent to me with no expectation of privacy.
citizen
"Osmo Ronkanen" <ronk...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:9k8f1o$p9a$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In article <3B677E41...@ix.nospam4menetcom.com>,
> William A. Levinson <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
> >The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
> >control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
> >great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
> >
>
> That is total nonsense. The homicide rate in the Netherlands is about a
> quarter or a third of U.S. rate
>
> >
> >> An estimated 5,981 people -- an average of 16 a day -- were killed by
>
> Total nonsense and right wing lies.
>
> >> several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled
infants, terminally ill children, and mental patients. [Notice that Hitler
> >> began his genocidal programs with these groups, not Jews, Gypsies, or
other ethnic minorities.]
accountants. As the cost of socialized medicine in the Netherlands grew,
> >> doctors were lectured about the climbing cost of care. In many
hospitals, signs were posted indicating how much old-age treatments cost
taxpayers
> >> ("The Dutch Way of Death," By Richard Miniter 04/25/2001 The Wall
Street Journal Page A20 ).
> >>
> >
>
> The Wall Street rag is not a credible reference.
>
> Osmo
What credible 'rag' do you read?
Please let us in on your source ,so everyone can be as informed as
'you'!:>))
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned
from time to time that the people preserve the spirit of resistance?
LET THEM TAKE ARMS"
- Thomas Jefferson -US Ambassador to France.
Bamma Brian repeated a old cliché that fit nitwitish ignoramus "Steve
Krulick",to
a,"T"
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit:>))
http://www.davehitt.com/dec00/green1.html
http://americanfreedomnews.com
http://www.libertystory.net/
http://www.sas-aim.org/
http://www.2asisters.org/unabridged.htm
Mort Davis
lovak wrote in message
-*MORT*-
Allan K. Lindsay-O'Neal
Osmo Ronkanen <ronk...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote
>
> The Wall Street rag is not a credible reference.
>
Dimwit. I read the Wall Street Journal every day not so much because I'm
interested in the news (and the WSJ does a damn fine job of it) but because
I am entrusted with the care and maintenance of millions of dollars _that
are NOT MY OWN_. I must spot trouble before it happens and make the proper
decisoions to anticipate threats to the capital base because it IS NOT MY
MONEY. All of it belongs to others and I'll be damned if I'm going to do
anything that will jeapordize that money AND the trust of the people for
whom I stand guard.
Screw you, Euro-creep.
d'ge...@d'geezer.net
DOJ and breaking out the various categories of "homicide". Try it, you'll like it.
>Osmo
d'geezer
Osmo Ronkanen
Levinson" <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com wrote:
>
>
>Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
>
>> In article <3B677E41...@ix.nospam4menetcom.com>,
>> William A. Levinson <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
>> >The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
>> >control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
>> >great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
>> >
>>
>> That is total nonsense. The homicide rate in the Netherlands is about a
>> quarter or a third of U.S. rate
>>
>> >
>>
>> Total nonsense and right wing lies.
>>
>> [old stuff deleted]
>>
>> The Wall Street rag is not a credible reference.
>>
>> Osmo
>
>The Wall Street Journal is among the most prestigious newspapers in the United States. It's targeted to a college-educated audience and you'll find it
>in the highest level executive offices in the country.
It has a clear right wing bias. For American right wingers the
Netherlands is a modern Babylon. I would trust anything that
paper writes about the country.
How about conforming that with a more impartial source.
Osmo
William A. Levinson
Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
The WSJ's editorial page is indeed Republican-Libertarian, except for columnist Al Hunt. (I ALWAYS read the editorial page if nothing else.) Nonetheless,
the WSJ does not invent news or falsify figures, unlike the media that reported a turnout of 750,000 for the Million Mom March.
But here's a Google search, have fun with the non-WSJ links on this subject :-)
-Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend Second Amendment site
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/victory.html The End of the Million Mom March
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/dirty.html Antigun movement's dirty laundry
Dr. Pepper
Osmo Ronkanen <ronk...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:9k8f1o$p9a$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In article <3B677E41...@ix.nospam4menetcom.com>,
> William A. Levinson <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
> >The Netherlands, like most other European countries, has very strict gun
> >control laws. Nonetheless, the Dutch murder rate is almost six times as
> >great as the United States' overall homicide rate.
> >
>
> That is total nonsense. The homicide rate in the Netherlands is about a
> quarter or a third of U.S. rate
>
> >
> >> An estimated 5,981 people -- an average of 16 a day -- were killed by
their doctors without their consent. And these numbers do not measure
>
> Total nonsense and right wing lies.
>
> >> several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled
infants, terminally ill children, and mental patients. [Notice that Hitler
> >> began his genocidal programs with these groups, not Jews, Gypsies, or
other ethnic minorities.]
> >> .The path to the death culture began when doctors learned to think like
accountants. As the cost of socialized medicine in the Netherlands grew,
> >> doctors were lectured about the climbing cost of care. In many
hospitals, signs were posted indicating how much old-age treatments cost
taxpayers
> >> ("The Dutch Way of Death," By Richard Miniter 04/25/2001 The Wall
Street Journal Page A20 ).
> >>
> >
>
> The Wall Street rag is not a credible reference.
>
> Osmo
You're not a credible reference either. You keep getting closer and closer
to my twit filter.
DP
PS: You're a fucking liar.
Osmo Ronkanen
<drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
>
>PS: You're a fucking liar.
>
How civilized.
Osmo
William A. Levinson
Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
Holland apparently is not, nor is France (given laws that legalize
religious persecution-- can anyone say "St. Bartholomew's Day
Massacre?")
> Osmo
You're in Finland, right? Well, I can't think of anything wrong with
Finland off hand (except for the weather), but I'm not sure why you're
defending Holland's practice of murdering medical patients.
Also, I don't think Finland has stupid gun laws like they do in the rest
of Europe--- I read somewhere that you're not allowed to own anything
bigger than a 20 mm Oerlikon gun :-) It's because of that attitude that
the Soviets didn't succeed in conquering your country during the Second
World War, while many other European nations rolled over pretty easily,
either for the Nazis or the Soviets.
Sounds like you should be on our side.
-Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend Second Amendment site
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/euro.html About European antigunners
d'ge...@d'geezer.net
<wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
>
>> In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
>> <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
>> >
>> >PS: You're a fucking liar.
>> >
>>
>> How civilized.
>
>Holland apparently is not, nor is France (given laws that legalize
>religious persecution-- can anyone say "St. Bartholomew's Day
>Massacre?")
>
>> Osmo
>
>You're in Finland, right? Well, I can't think of anything wrong with
>Finland off hand (except for the weather), but I'm not sure why you're
>defending Holland's practice of murdering medical patients.
>
>Also, I don't think Finland has stupid gun laws like they do in the rest
>of Europe--- I read somewhere that you're not allowed to own anything
>bigger than a 20 mm Oerlikon gun :-) It's because of that attitude that
>the Soviets didn't succeed in conquering your country during the Second
>World War, while many other European nations rolled over pretty easily,
>either for the Nazis or the Soviets.
>
>Sounds like you should be on our side.
Way back when I first ran across Osmo's strange brand of thinging on the issue I
invited him to round up a bunch of old timers in his country and bring up the
issue of civilian ownership of guns for defense. I would say he'd have a couple
that fought the Russians in the group and would get his head slapped 360 degree
left and right a few times for his views. But he never replied to that
post...heheh
I wonder why?
>
>-Bill
>
\
John Kane
You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
--
------------------
John Kane
The Rideau Lakes, Ontario
citizen
"John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B6C74DB...@sympatico.ca...
> Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
>
> > In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
> > <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > >
> > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > >
> >
> > How civilized.
> >
> > Osmo
>
> You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
>
I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
But!
Other than that explain the defferance?
> --
> ------------------
> John Kane
> The Rideau Lakes, Ontario
>
>
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned
digger
>
> Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
>
> > In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
> > <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > >
> > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > >
> >
> > How civilized.
> >
> > Osmo
>
> You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
Thank you very much for noticing that difference John, my arm has been
getting tired trying to pound that fact into the heads of too many of
the anti-gun types here.
This is important precisely because so many of those anti-gun people
seem to think that the ONLY difference between the US and other
countries, particularly Canada, is in the relatively easy availability
of guns here. Yet, the differences between the the non-gun homicide
rates of the US and Canada, for example, suggest that there are many
other social and cultural differences between our otherwise so similar
countries.
And, as one who was trained in observing cultural phenomena, it is
apparant to me that it is the cultural forces at work here in the US
that "cause" so much of our gun violence, not the presence of the guns
themselves. Thus to many pro-gun people here, it seems foolish to try
and "cure" the problem, by "fixing" a symptom, instead of finding the
cause.
We may never find that real cause, or simply may not be capable of
effecting a cure, but jumping in trying to "fix" things when we don't
even know the real problem is guaranteed to screw things up in the short
term, and is likely to make them even worse, in the long term.
Remember that line from the Hippocratic oath, "First, do no harm..."
Henry Glenworthy
> Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> > "Dr. Pepper" <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > How civilized.
> You must remember this is a primarily USA ng.
> They are different:)
>>>>
As opposed to those terribly "civilized" Euro-peons who
managed to start two world wars (and numerous smaller
ones) during the 20th century? In one battle alone (Verdun -
1916) 143,000 "civilized" Germans and 163,000 "civilized"
French were killed...How "civilized".
--
"I thought I had an appetite for destruction, but all I
wanted was a club sandwich." H.J.Simpson
=================================
Mort Davis
John Kane wrote in message <3B6C74DB...@sympatico.ca>...
should live. Some of us just cut to the chase and tell y'all to fuck off,
since you are so adamant about how "savage" we are.
-*MORT*-
Henry Glenworthy
> "John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> > > "Dr. Pepper" <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > > How civilized.
> > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
> I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
> We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
> But!
> Other than that explain the deference [sic]?
>>>>
Striped shorts and plaid shirts.
=======================================
John Kane
> "John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3B6C74DB...@sympatico.ca...
> > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> >
> > > In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
> > > <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > > >
> > >
> > > How civilized.
> > >
> > > Osmo
> >
> > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
> >
>
> I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
Lucky you blast it. . I have hit almost every province in Canada except
NFLD. but sometimes only long enough for the plane to refuel :(,
> We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
Well that is a matter of opinion, at least on the constitution . :)
>
> But! Other than that explain the defferance?
Well, simply put, Americans, at least on this ng, tend to be much ruder
than other posters and this, to some extent is my impression on a number of
other ngs. It just may be that what is acceptable in e-mail or verbally in
the US is not quite so acceptable in some other countries. Certainly, a
long time ago, when I worked for a (dubious) American owned placement
agency this seemed true. Aggressive approaches that the head office in
Chicago recommend as a selling technique would have been insane in Toronto.
Besides Americans have their own culture just as any other country does.
In Saudi Arabia some actions that are innocuous here are either threatening
or insulting. Just a cultural difference.
John Kane
> John Kane wrote:
> >
> > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> >
> > > In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
> > > <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > > >
> > >
> > > How civilized.
> > >
> > > Osmo
> >
> > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
>
> Thank you very much for noticing that difference John, my arm has been
> getting tired trying to pound that fact into the heads of too many of
> the anti-gun types here.
Well, the same problem exists for the US gun nuts. They do not understand
societal differences either.
>
>
> This is important precisely because so many of those anti-gun people
> seem to think that the ONLY difference between the US and other
> countries, particularly Canada, is in the relatively easy availability
> of guns here. Yet, the differences between the the non-gun homicide
> rates of the US and Canada, for example, suggest that there are many
> other social and cultural differences between our otherwise so similar
> countries.
Definitely. The problem seems to be that we (Canada and the USA) look the
same in terms of architecture etc. and tourists going in either direction
don't see much difference (except our money is prettier albeit of a low
exchange rate). The real differences are more subtle or at least less
apparent. And they do tend to be cultural. Probably a function of our
different immigration patterns, government styles etc. Heck, if it has not
been done, I probably could get a dissertation out of this!
>
>
> And, as one who was trained in observing cultural phenomena, it is
> apparant to me that it is the cultural forces at work here in the US
> that "cause" so much of our gun violence, not the presence of the guns
> themselves. Thus to many pro-gun people here, it seems foolish to try
> and "cure" the problem, by "fixing" a symptom, instead of finding the
> cause.
I think you are right. to a very large extent. That does not mean that
removing a firearm, esp. a handgun, from many people might not cut down to
some extent on the carnage. While a baseball bat is probably more dangerous
it is easier to outrun :) As a favourite SF writer once wrote: "It is
difficult to do a drive-by axe murder" On the other hand if you have a
violent society and a part of the US seems that way then just removing guns
is not going to be the answer.
>
> We may never find that real cause, or simply may not be capable of
> effecting a cure, but jumping in trying to "fix" things when we don't
> even know the real problem is guaranteed to screw things up in the short
> term, and is likely to make them even worse, in the long term.
True indeed. However doing nothing is probably not the best idea either.
:)
> Remember that line from the Hippocratic oath, "First, do no harm..."
Or the idea that 'the longest journey starts with a single step'?
Unfortunately both seem to be true and it is difficult to know which
applies when. Of course that is why the politicians get payed the big
bucks. They get to make calls based on inadequate data and analysis
because often they have not choice.
John Kane
Then limit the ng to the US. We get damn tired of listening to Mr. Death
raving too.
citizen
> citizen wrote:
>
> > "John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3B6C74DB...@sympatico.ca...
> > > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> > >
> > > > In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
> > > > <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > How civilized.
> > > >
> > > > Osmo
> > >
> > > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
> > >
> >
> > I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
>
> Lucky you blast it. . I have hit almost every province in Canada except
> NFLD. but sometimes only long enough for the plane to refuel :(,
>
> > We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
>
> Well that is a matter of opinion
No it is a 'fact'!:>))
>at least on the constitution . :)
What do you have that is 'better' than the 'Constitution'?
>
> >
> > But! Other than that explain the defferance?
>
> Well, simply put, Americans, at least on this ng, tend to be much ruder
> than other posters and this, to some extent is my impression on a number
of
> other ngs.
Other ngs don't deal with the same 'group' of 'brain dead liberal nitwits'
as TPG!
>It just may be that what is acceptable >in e-mail or verbally in
> the US is not quite so acceptable in some other countries.
Well that may be true ,but that's what you get when you have freedom of
speech ,other american plus!:>))
>Certainly, a
> long time ago, when I worked for a (dubious) American owned placement
> agency this seemed true. Aggressive approaches that the head office in
> Chicago recommend as a selling technique would have been insane in
Toronto.
Yes when you introduce 'capitalism' to a sheltered 'government controlled
subsidized economy' people get educated!:>))
>
> Besides Americans have their own culture just as any other country does
I have been were you live and I dissagree!
All you have there derferent is the heavy hand of 'government
regulation'!:>((
.
> In Saudi Arabia some actions that are innocuous here are either
threatening
> or insulting. Just a cultural difference.
Arabs are of Ala and are natural fanatics in their own land ,get them on a
747 and they will even drink alcohol and eat '
bacon&eggs!:>))
citizen
"Henry Glenworthy" <Henery_G...@xoregontrail.net> wrote in message
news:9kjg1s$pk4$1...@news.apaynet.com...
> "citizen" <stu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> > > > "Dr. Pepper" <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
>
> > > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
>
> > > > How civilized.
>
> > > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
>
> > I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
>
> > We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
>
> > But!
>
> > Other than that explain the deference [sic]?
I don't know what I would have done without your assistance!:>))
> Striped shorts and plaid shirts.
Surely you jest!:>))
digger
>
> digger wrote:
>
> > John Kane wrote:
> > >
> > > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
> > >
> > > > In Article <krsa7.27007$%7.41...@news6.giganews.com "Dr. Pepper"
> > > > <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > How civilized.
> > > >
> > > > Osmo
> > >
> > > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
> >
> > Thank you very much for noticing that difference John, my arm has been
> > getting tired trying to pound that fact into the heads of too many of
> > the anti-gun types here.
>
> Well, the same problem exists for the US gun nuts. They do not understand
> societal differences either.
I would have to disagree here, John. From my vantage point, it appears
that it is the pro-gun people who understand that there are many
different ways that human beings choose to deal with the world. But,
they are not the ones that are trying to impose a single, governmentally
imposed world view on the whole of American society. That methodology
belongs to the anti-gun people, who seem to believe that theirs is the
only possible way to look at the place of guns in a society.
The pro-gun people are simply seeking to retain the long ago accepted
ideal of political diversity in this country, that was embodied by the
ideas espoused in the US Constitution and the Declaration of
Independence.
The pro-gun people will accept societal differences, as long as those
differences do not stray into areas of Constitutionally protected
rights. It is the anti-gun people who seem to be trying to alter the
whole idea of those rights, in order to facilitate their non-acceptance
of other peole different life=styles.
>
> >
> >
> > This is important precisely because so many of those anti-gun people
> > seem to think that the ONLY difference between the US and other
> > countries, particularly Canada, is in the relatively easy availability
> > of guns here. Yet, the differences between the the non-gun homicide
> > rates of the US and Canada, for example, suggest that there are many
> > other social and cultural differences between our otherwise so similar
> > countries.
>
> Definitely. The problem seems to be that we (Canada and the USA) look the
> same in terms of architecture etc. and tourists going in either direction
> don't see much difference (except our money is prettier albeit of a low
> exchange rate). The real differences are more subtle or at least less
> apparent. And they do tend to be cultural. Probably a function of our
> different immigration patterns, government styles etc. Heck, if it has not
> been done, I probably could get a dissertation out of this!
It's a function of a lot of things, no doubt. My personal "intuitive'
choice for the most important one in this area (the gun debate) is in
the nature of US understandings of the realtionship of a citizen to his
government, which is vastly different from the Candadian ideal in this
area.
>
> >
> >
> > And, as one who was trained in observing cultural phenomena, it is
> > apparant to me that it is the cultural forces at work here in the US
> > that "cause" so much of our gun violence, not the presence of the guns
> > themselves. Thus to many pro-gun people here, it seems foolish to try
> > and "cure" the problem, by "fixing" a symptom, instead of finding the
> > cause.
>
> I think you are right. to a very large extent. That does not mean that
> removing a firearm, esp. a handgun, from many people might not cut down to
> some extent on the carnage. While a baseball bat is probably more dangerous
> it is easier to outrun :) As a favourite SF writer once wrote: "It is
> difficult to do a drive-by axe murder" On the other hand if you have a
> violent society and a part of the US seems that way then just removing guns
> is not going to be the answer.
I absolutely agree with the analysis that you present, but still will
not agree with your suggested "cure".
The problem arises in that your "cure" (removing handguns from society)
does not simply provide only the one, single hoped-for effect of
"cutting down on the carnage". It also involves allowing additional
carnage imposed on those who can no longer effectively use those guns to
defend themselves. It results in a lessening of the comparative force
avaailable for the citizens to use against the government, if necessary,
and it requires additional federal level intervention in areas of legal
responsiblity that are rightfully reserved to the States only.
The anti-gun forces try to act as if the ONLY impact of importance here
is the one that "cuts down on the carnage". But the US legal structure
was founded on a very basic distrust of government in general, and our
own government in particular. And sometimes a society must accept a
limited amount of discord in some areas, in order to preserve some basic
freedoms in others. Call it the price of freedom, if you will. But it
has never been cheap, and the only legal tender that has ever been
accepted in this area is blood.
>
> >
> > We may never find that real cause, or simply may not be capable of
> > effecting a cure, but jumping in trying to "fix" things when we don't
> > even know the real problem is guaranteed to screw things up in the short
> > term, and is likely to make them even worse, in the long term.
>
> True indeed. However doing nothing is probably not the best idea either.
> :)
Actually, that concept, as popular is it has become in some areas, is
not correct. The basic problem here, as we both seem to agree, is social
or cultural in nature. Anthropological studies of the nature of culture
prove one thing above all else, that human beings are NOT yet wise
enough to try and design a perfect society. And the history of those
times where some "wiser" authority tried to impose a cultural change on
a specific society, for the "benefit" of the people, proves that imposed
changes are always more harmful in the long run than slow, internal
changes that result from the unforced pressure for change within a
society itself.
If anyone here wants to "point a finger" at why the US is now having so
much apparant problems with guns in school, for example, they need look
no further than the fact that there now exists within this country a
large vocal segment of society that believes that "they" have the
answers for a 'perfect' society, and it is only the 'masses' of "gun
nuts" and others like us that prevent them from implementing their
ideas. I suspect strongly that it is the attempt by those peolle to
impose their own ideas of socail morality on the US that resluts ina
very real confusiion among children of exactly what types of behavior
are expected or tolerated from them by their culture. Kids, along with
al people, tend to act out when they have no clear boundaries, and are
receiving mixed signals about their behaviors.
Of course, if we need some historical proof of this effect, those
self-appointed agents of social change need only look at the history of
Prohibition in this country, to see what happens when a group of
idealistic social-improvement advocates get their way.
Talk about the law of unintended consequences!
>
> > Remember that line from the Hippocratic oath, "First, do no harm..."
>
> Or the idea that 'the longest journey starts with a single step'?
> Unfortunately both seem to be true and it is difficult to know which
> applies when. Of course that is why the politicians get payed the big
> bucks. They get to make calls based on inadequate data and analysis
> because often they have not choice.
And this illustrates what I was saying about differing social ideals
between out two countries. Up until very recently in the US, the average
citizen would NEVER have said something like that about a governmental
official here. Instead, the normal reaction, when asked about the duties
of government officials, was to make some remark about how they were
supposed to listen to the peoples wants, and implement them. The
American ideal was for a government that was the servant of the people
and was NOT appointed to make decisions FOR the people. Elected
officials were merely the peoples representatives in the legislative
bodies. And the appointed bureaucrats were supposed to be subservient to
the elected ones.
NONE of them, however, were paid 'big bucks' to make impose their own
opinions on the bulk of the people.
d'ge...@d'geezer.net
>
>"Henry Glenworthy" <Henery_G...@xoregontrail.net> wrote in message
>news:9kjg1s$pk4$1...@news.apaynet.com...
>> "citizen" <stu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > "John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> > > Osmo Ronkanen wrote:
>> > > > "Dr. Pepper" <drpe...@HappyValley.net wrote:
>>
>> > > > >PS: You're a fucking liar.
>>
>> > > > How civilized.
>>
>> > > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
>>
>> > I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
>>
>> > We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
>>
>> > But!
>>
>> > Other than that explain the deference [sic]?
>
>
>I don't know what I would have done without your assistance!:>))
>
>
>> Striped shorts and plaid shirts.
>
>Surely you jest!:>))
It's actually plaid shorts and striped shirts........and don't call him
Shirley...hehehe
d'geezer
John Kane
> "John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3B6D24A2...@sympatico.ca...
> > citizen wrote:
> >
> clip
>
> > > >
> > > > You must remember this is a primarily USA ng. They are different:)
> > > I'm from Norway,Mi.,and have been to most every province in canada!
> >
> > Lucky you blast it. . I have hit almost every province in Canada except
> > NFLD. but sometimes only long enough for the plane to refuel :(,
> >
> > > We americans are lucky to have the constitution and the 'Bill of Rights'
> > Well that is a matter of opinion
>
> No it is a 'fact'!:>))
No it it really a matter of opinion. Personally I tend to think that you have
frozen your constitution in a way that is unhealthy for a modern government.
Mind you its is simply my opinion and I am not a Political Scientist.
>
> >at least on the constitution . :)
>
> What do you have that is 'better' than the 'Constitution'?
Our own constitution which tends to be much more flxile? Of course much of it
is unwritten, however Magna Carta and the BILL of RIGHTS, 1689 which, weird as
it, is seems to be a basis for your BorR as it is for ours.
> > > But! Other than that explain the defferance?
> >
> > Well, simply put, Americans, at least on this ng, tend to be much ruder
> > than other posters and this, to some extent is my impression on a number
> of
> > other ngs.
>
> Other ngs don't deal with the same 'group' of 'brain dead liberal nitwits'
> as TPG!
>
Actually they do and you must remember that "liberal' is not an insult outside
of the USA. It has a totally different meaning
> >It just may be that what is acceptable >in e-mail or verbally in
> > the US is not quite so acceptable in some other countries.
>
> Well that may be true ,but that's what you get when you have freedom of
> speech ,other american plus!:>))
Well I have not considered this to be a real plus but you have to realize that
idiots from the USA who use very provocative language are not likely to be
appreciated. It is not a problem of free speech so much a it is a question of
what is acceptable. Certain terms are used in one country that are totally
unacceptable in other.
>
> >Certainly, a
> > long time ago, when I worked for a (dubious) American owned placement
> > agency this seemed true. Aggressive approaches that the head office in
> > Chicago recommend as a selling technique would have been insane in
> Toronto.
>
> Yes when you introduce 'capitalism' to a sheltered 'government controlled
> subsidized economy' people get educated!:>))
>
No, when you introduce culturally offensive approaches the locals tend to punch
your teeth in. In fact the same US approaches now probably would elicit the
same responses.
>
> > Besides Americans have their own culture just as any other country does
>
> I have been were you live and I dissagree!
How long? Seriously there appear to be some very different philosophical
differences between us. A visit versus a long term residency is quite
important.
> All you have there derferent is the heavy hand of 'government
> regulation'!:>((
Right , of course I can visit Cuba legally. :)
>
> .
> > In Saudi Arabia some actions that are innocuous here are either
> threatening
> > or insulting. Just a cultural difference.
>
> Arabs are of Ala and are natural fanatics in their own land ,get them on a
> 747 and they will even drink alcohol and eat '
> bacon&eggs!:>))
>
True but that does not meant that showing them your sole is a good idea.;)
Mort Davis
John Kane wrote in message <3B6E8943...@sympatico.ca>...
I think of them as interlopers.
>
>> >It just may be that what is acceptable >in e-mail or verbally in
>> > the US is not quite so acceptable in some other countries.
>>
>> Well that may be true ,but that's what you get when you have freedom of
>> speech ,other american plus!:>))
>
>Well I have not considered this to be a real plus but you have to realize
that
>idiots from the USA who use very provocative language are not likely to be
>appreciated. It is not a problem of free speech so much a it is a question
of
>what is acceptable. Certain terms are used in one country that are totally
>unacceptable in other.
Yes. "Get stuffed" in the USA brings up pictures of stufed turkeys. "Bugger"
is something you find in your nose, not sodomy.
>
>>
>> >Certainly, a
>> > long time ago, when I worked for a (dubious) American owned placement
>> > agency this seemed true. Aggressive approaches that the head office
in
>> > Chicago recommend as a selling technique would have been insane in
>> Toronto.
>>
>> Yes when you introduce 'capitalism' to a sheltered 'government controlled
>> subsidized economy' people get educated!:>))
>>
>
>No, when you introduce culturally offensive approaches the locals tend to
punch
>your teeth in. In fact the same US approaches now probably would elicit
the
>same responses.
Same goes for around here. You can get away with a lot on the Internet,
without threat of physical harm.
>
>>
>> > Besides Americans have their own culture just as any other country does
>>
>> I have been were you live and I dissagree!
>
>How long? Seriously there appear to be some very different philosophical
>differences between us. A visit versus a long term residency is quite
>important.
250 years is plenty long enough. British culture still included drawing and
quartering as a form of punishment in the 1860s; although they had cut out
the castration while alive and the gutting while alive of the condemned.
>
>> All you have there derferent is the heavy hand of 'government
>> regulation'!:>((
>
>Right , of course I can visit Cuba legally. :)
Who cares?
>
>>
>> .
>> > In Saudi Arabia some actions that are innocuous here are either
>> threatening
>> > or insulting. Just a cultural difference.
>>
>> Arabs are of Ala and are natural fanatics in their own land ,get them on
a
>> 747 and they will even drink alcohol and eat '
>> bacon&eggs!:>))
>>
>
>True but that does not meant that showing them your sole is a good idea.;)
>
-*MORT*-
William A. Levinson
Mort Davis wrote:
> 250 years is plenty long enough. British culture still included drawing and
> quartering as a form of punishment in the 1860s; although they had cut out
> the castration while alive and the gutting while alive of the condemned.
Breaking on the wheel was legal in Holland until at least 1805 and the
Inquisition was around in 1815. "Are we Europeans yet civilized enough for
you???"
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/euro.html
-Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend Second Amendment site
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/victory.html The End of the Million Mom March
http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/dirty.html Antigun movement's dirty laundry