Helmke is a moron
bigdog
Lott and Paul Helmke regarding the issue of licensed college students
being permited to carry concealed weapons on campus.
In short, Lott flat out kicked his ass. While Lott was loaded with
facts and figures to back up his arguments, Helmke could offer nothing
more than anecdotal evidence and speculation. Helmke made several
arguments which were especially lame.
He argued that an armed student or faculty member would be unlikely to
offer effective resistance to an attacker. He correctly pointed out
that even trained police officer have trouble firing their weapons
accurately in a gunfight. Marksmanship does indeed suffer when one is
under fire. The part of the equation he ignored was that if there was
an armed resister, the attacker would then be under the same stress.
In such a situation, if the attacker is the only one that is armed, he
has a decided upper hand over his intended victims. If there is just
one armed resister in the building, the two of them would be on equal
footing. Add to the fact that other unarmed students might then be
able to tackle the attacker while he is occupied in a shootout with
the an armed resister, the good guys are then have a slight advantage.
At the very least, others could escape while the attacker shoots it
out with the defender. If there were more than one armed resister to
meet the attacker, then the good guys have a clear upper hand. Ask
yourself one simple question. If you got caught in a situation in
which an attacker was going on a shooting rampage in a building you
were in, would you want him to be the only one with a gun or would you
want somebody on your side with a gun? The question answers itself.
Helmke went on to point out that college students are under a lot of
pressure and having students with firearms on campus would increase
the likelihood of a suicide by gun. Does he honestly believe that a
student who has become so despaired that he would take his own life is
going to be detered by a gun ban. Right. Such a student won't go get a
gun because he might get in trouble. The arguement is moronic.
Helmke's main argument that the way to make campuses and other places
safer is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally
ill to begin with. On that we can agree. That is a very good first
line of defense against such an attack. Any measures that will keep
such people from getting guns without compromising the rights of law
abiding citizens to arm themselves will get widespread support.
However, that is just a first line of defense and is not going to be
fool proof. Despite our best efforts, criminals and mentally ill
people are going to find a way to get guns and attacks are going to
occur. The attacker will choose the time and place of the attack and
will be unlikely to attack where police are stationed or as John Lott
pointed out, the armed cop is often the first one taken out in that
situation. However, if the gunman doesn't know who is armed or how
many guns he might come up against, he is at a severe disadvantage.
The people who commit these attrocities are for the most part ready to
give up their own lives and for there own twisted reasons, want to
take out as many innocent folks as they can. They will seek out times
and places where they can wreak maximum carnage. What better place to
do that than gun free zones. However, if gun free zones were
eliminated, we eliminate easy targets. A variable is introduced to the
equation that the gunman will not be able to calculate. He likely will
be the one that gets off the first shot, quite possibly more before a
defender will be in position to offer armed resistance. But will not
be assured that he will be able to go on a rampage, free from any
effective resistance for several hours before encountering armed
resistance. At Columbine and Va. Tech, that is exactly what happened.
At a church shooting in Colorado last year, the attacker was able to
kill just two people before being cut down himself by an armed
citizen. How many more mass shootings will it take before we see the
obvious conclusion that gun free zones are nothing more than shooting
galleries for madmen?
Birdog
"bigdog" <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fac3136a-9c17-4248...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Don't know if this will really add anything, since it's difficult to prove a
negative.
I entered Va. Tech in 1946, along with hundreds (a couple thousand) of
recently discharged vets of WWII. I would venture a guess that 80% of the
civilian enrollees were armed (I had a .32 semi-). There was not a single
negative incident in my 4 years there. That some nut would go on a rampage
was unthinkable - even a suicidal nut could estimate the odds of getting
more than one shot off.
Maybe the control freaks can explain why Dodge City, and even Tombstone were
safer for the average citizen in their wildest days than sections of
Detroit, Chicago and DC are today??? Could it be that a heavily armed
citizenry is a more cautious and mannerly citizenry?
When it comes to gun control/ban, common sense goes out the window!
bigdog
> "bigdog" <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil society. I
agree with that 100%.
John Lott made a very similar point to the one you did. Prior to the
Safe Schools Act of 1995, there was no prohibition against carrying a
firearm on school grounds if you were licensed to do so. Since
concealed carry laws began being passed in the 1980s, there was about
a decade during which teachers who had concealed carry permits could
legally carry their weapon on school grounds and many did so. There
was not one instance of a teacher negligently or maliciously
discharging a firearm and injuring a student. Mass killings were
unheard of in schools. It was only after the federal government
mandated that schools be gun free zones that they became killing
fields. A classic example of unintended consequences.
The Lone Weasel
> I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
> society. I agree with that 100%.
Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't you go
there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed society,
Pigdog?
James Corbett would puke in your face and shoot the hairs off
your head one by one, and it's "Edward James Corbett" you
ridiculous fake.
--
Yours truly,
The Lone Weasel
Birdog
"The Lone Weasel" <thelon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9AEF1ED5F5F...@216.196.97.131...
You are a class act, weasel! Why didn't you cite Normandy on D-day?? Same
difference.
Bill DeFranzo
"bigdog" <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fac3136a-9c17-4248...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I saw the debate, live on Friday. Helmke should be ashamed of himself. To be
in the position that he is in and then bring the shoddiest of antidotal
drivel to support his position made me feel embarrassed for him. His whole
premise hinges upon the probably that some day someone with a CCW will
inadvertently kill someone or be killed by the police when they arrive and
see the CCW with a gun. The fact that millions of Americans already have CCW
licenses and there are no stats to back up that his mythical scenarios are
anything but.
bigdog
The fact that you think I am posing as someone else simply because we
have the same surname shows how ridiculously illogical you can be, but
this will come as no shock to those on this forum who have read your
sill rants. The fact of the matter is I had never heard of Edward
James Corbett until you mentioned him but I did go to the trouble of
doing a google search to find out just who he is. He seems like a
fascinating fellow and I intend to read more about him. Thank you for
that little piece of info.
PS You're still a fucking moron!!!
bigdog
>
> > I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
> > society. I agree with that 100%.
>
> Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't you go
> there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed society,
> Pigdog?
>
isn't. It divides societies into predators and prey (Va Tech students
can testify to that). When all factions are armed, it is in everyone's
best interest to behave themselves.
God didn't make all men equal. Samuel Colt did.
The Lone Weasel
> On Aug 3, 1:11 am, The Lone Weasel
> <thelonewea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>> > I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
>> > society. I agree with that 100%.
>>
>> Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't
>> you go there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed
>> society, Pigdog?
>>
> Violence is prevelant when one faction of society is armed
> and another isn't.
In Pakistan the government has guns & bombs and Al Qaeda has
guns and bombs and the Taliban have guns and bombs. All you
need is bombs plus your guns, you'll be so happy.
Go! Go!
> It divides societies into predators and
> prey (Va Tech students can testify to that). When all
> factions are armed, it is in everyone's best interest to
> behave themselves.
So you want to live in a combat zone. Try Afghanistan.
But you don't get to turn the USA into a fucking combat zone
you traitorous pigdog.
> God didn't make all men equal. Samuel Colt did.
So you'd pit your sick old mammy & pappy with a pistol against
a couple of young criminals with the element of surprise and
shotguns? Or do your parents always move through their home
with guns in hand, like on a cop show when they're clearing a
crime scene?
You are the worst excuse for a son I have ever laid pixels on.
Shame on you! I bet if it's YOU with a pistol v. two goons
with 12 gauge shotguns, you'd run away like a frightened lil
piglet.
Can your aged parents fight a running gun battle against
criminals with shotguns? Of course not.
What's wrong with you, Pigdog? Why would you force the
elderly, weak, sick, disabled, small of stature to become
AMATEUR GUNFIGHTERS aka DEAD? You must love the NRA's
bullshit more than your own mother and father. Shame!
Bad Pigdog!
The Lone Weasel
> On Aug 3, 1:11 am, The Lone Weasel
> <thelonewea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>> > I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
>> > society. I agree with that 100%.
>>
>> Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't
>> you go there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed
>> society, Pigdog?
>>
>> James Corbett would puke in your face and shoot the hairs
>> off your head one by one, and it's "Edward James Corbett"
>> you ridiculous fake.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Yours truly,
>>
>> The Lone Weasel
>
> The fact that you think I am posing as someone else simply
> because we have the same surname shows how ridiculously
> illogical you can be
Same surname and initials but in the wrong order, typical for
an ignorant gunBORG, and Jim Corbett is a big hero of NRA
types until the discover he didn't use assault rifles for
hunting.
Corbett's been zumboed for several years now, slick.
, but this will come as no shock to
> those on this forum who have read your sill rants. The fact
> of the matter is I had never heard of Edward James Corbett
> until you mentioned him
Just proves you're a political gunloon not a hunter. You're
the new NRA member - a rightwing authoritarian follower.
> but I did go to the trouble of
> doing a google search to find out just who he is. He seems
> like a fascinating fellow and I intend to read more about
> him. Thank you for that little piece of info.
Never apologize - it's a sign of intelligence. And of course
being a dope you did not apologize...
POINT PROVEN!
Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh.
The Lone Weasel
> "The Lone Weasel" <thelon...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns9AEF1ED5F5F...@216.196.97.131...
>> bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>
>>> I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
>>> society. I agree with that 100%.
>>
>> Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't
>> you go there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed
>> society, Pigdog?
>>
>> James Corbett would puke in your face and shoot the hairs
>> off your head one by one, and it's "Edward James Corbett"
>> you ridiculous fake.
>
> on D-day?? Same difference.
You don't know who Jim Corbett was. Read twice post once you
half-assed turd-sucking troll.
bigdog
> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 3, 1:11 am, The Lone Weasel
> > <thelonewea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >> > I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
> >> > society. I agree with that 100%.
>
> >> Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't
> >> you go there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed
> >> society, Pigdog?
>
> >> James Corbett would puke in your face and shoot the hairs
> >> off your head one by one, and it's "Edward James Corbett"
> >> you ridiculous fake.
>
> >> --
>
> >> Yours truly,
>
> >> The Lone Weasel
>
> > The fact that you think I am posing as someone else simply
> > because we have the same surname shows how ridiculously
> > illogical you can be
>
> Same surname and initials but in the wrong order, typical for
> an ignorant gunBORG, and Jim Corbett is a big hero of NRA
> types until the discover he didn't use assault rifles for
> hunting.
>
same order they are in on by birth certificate. It is not my fault you
are so fucking stupid that you assumed I was trying to assume someone
else's identiy.
> Corbett's been zumboed for several years now, slick.
>
> , but this will come as no shock to
>
> > those on this forum who have read your sill rants. The fact
> > of the matter is I had never heard of Edward James Corbett
> > until you mentioned him
>
> Just proves you're a political gunloon not a hunter. You're
> the new NRA member - a rightwing authoritarian follower.
>
Another ridiculous and idiotic assumption which couldn't be more
wrong. I am a libertarian which is the polar opposite of an
authoritarian. Libertarians fully support individual liberty which
includes the right to keep and bear arms. Authoritarians believe in
total government control of all facets of our lives. But I wouldn't
expect a frothing-at-the mouth liberal loon like you to know the
difference.
You are correct that I am not a hunter. Congratulations. Even a blind
squirrel finds an occasional acorn. Even though I choose not to hunt
for my own food, I fully support the right of my fellow NRA brothers
and sisters as well as others to hunt and fish.
The Lone Weasel
> On Aug 3, 4:01 pm, The Lone Weasel <thelonewea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> said:
> > > On Aug 3, 1:11 am, The Lone Weasel
> > > <thelonewea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> said:
> > >> > I've heard it said this way. An armed society is a civil
> > >> > society. I agree with that 100%.
>
> > >> Then you should find Pakistan very sociable. Why don't
> > >> you go there and tell us what you think of a fucking armed
> > >> society, Pigdog?
>
> > >> James Corbett would puke in your face and shoot the hairs
> > >> off your head one by one, and it's "Edward James Corbett"
> > >> you ridiculous fake.
>
> > > The fact that you think I am posing as someone else simply
> > > because we have the same surname shows how ridiculously
> > > illogical you can be
>
> > Same surname and initials but in the wrong order, typical for
> > an ignorant gunBORG, and Jim Corbett is a big hero of NRA
> > types until the discover he didn't use assault rifles for
> > hunting.
>
> No, fuckwad, my initials are not in the wrong order. They are in the
> same order they are in on by birth certificate. It is not my fault you
> are so fucking stupid that you assumed I was trying to assume someone
> else's identiy.
You're impersonation of a great man is now exposed. Run lil gunloon,
run!
> > Corbett's been zumboed for several years now, slick.
>
> > , but this will come as no shock to
>
> > > those on this forum who have read your sill rants. The fact
> > > of the matter is I had never heard of Edward James Corbett
> > > until you mentioned him
>
> > Just proves you're a political gunloon not a hunter. You're
> > the new NRA member - a rightwing authoritarian follower.
>
> Another ridiculous and idiotic assumption which couldn't be more
> wrong. I am a libertarian which is the polar opposite of an
> authoritarian. Libertarians fully support individual liberty which
> includes the right to keep and bear arms.
But you'd gleefully impose CCW on people who don't want it and take
your gun on private property if you can get away with it, eh Pigdog?
> You are correct that I am not a hunter.
POINT PROVEN!
Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh.
--
Yours truly,
The Prophetic Lone Weasel