One of the best reasons for OpenCarry: attending a MMM meeting <GRIN>
Herb Martin
Attending a MMM meeting <GRIN>
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/2750.html
The meeting was in a Virginia Public Library. Although the write up
is entirely "serious" reading the reactions cracked me up.
You may not CHOOSE open carry for yourself (or may not be allowed
to choose it by your state) but these folks really are showing the flag for
law-abiding citizens, and helping to acclimate the public to the responsible
carry of firearms.
VCDL == Virginia Citizens Defense League
OCDO == Open Carry Dot Org (I believe)
MMM == Million Mom March
Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 08:39 am
<<
I arrived at Caribou Coffee at 6:30 PM for the pre-MMM meetup. Several other
OCDO members were in attendance and we ran into "The Donkey" by chance while
there. Some of you may remember him as the Jim Webb supporter at two of the
VCDL meetings who also was thrown out of a Senator Allen appearance for the
crime of OC'ing. We talked about behavior at the MMM meeting among other
topics.
We left at 6:45 and arrived at the library at 6:50. We found the meeting
room and collected just outside at the reception desk while waiting for an
OCDO member to change out of his motorcycle riding gear. While waiting for
this member, we noticed a gentleman inside the meeting who we didn't
recognize who was OC'ing. Things appeared calm inside the room and people
were chatting.
We entered the room as a group and while I could tell that the MMM
organizers were irritated by our presence, we were basically ignored. I have
a feeling the man in blue had informed them that many more of us would be
showing up. After arriving in the room we checked out their table with
literature and information and most of us collected one of each paper
provided to read and or take home with us. I took one of each for my
records.
I had my video camera with me and at this time, and notified one of the
organizers "Laura" that I intended to film the meeting. This is when the
nasty, rude, and spiteful nature of this woman became apparent. She hissed
at me "You will not film this meeting. We won't allow it so please keep your
camera turned off". She repeated the statement a few more times perhaps
thinking that I have a difficulty grasping our native language. She then
turned from me and walked away, then hesitated, turned around and addressed
all of us as a group saying "And don't touch any of the food either, this
table (pointing to the food and drink table) is not for you".
I didn't catch all of the comment but at this time I heard a man call out
loudly "You can shoot anyone you want". I turned to see an older (60's)
grey haired man with a school-boy "gotcha" smirk on his face. He sure looked
proud of himself. Since I had just had the episode with Laura about filming
I replied "Oh really? You're giving me permission to film you with my
camera?" I never got a reply. I think the MMM group realized that saying
outlandish things like that would not be useful; I didn't overhear any more
crazy comments while waiting for the meeting to start.
We took our seats after a bit and waited for the meeting to start. OCDO
member Unrequited had a shoulder holster on which points the muzzle of his
handgun rearwards. The lady sitting behind him didn't like the fact a gun
was pointed at her and while I didn't hear the full conversation, it seemed
like she asked him to move or tilt his chair so it pointed another
direction.
The meeting started shortly with an introduction by Linda, MMM Northern VA
Chapter President. Her part of the meeting involved discussing information
about where you could and could not legally carry a gun. She used a
projector to show PowerPoint slides of her talking points. This is where I
started taking notes.
Linda spoke about how easy it is to get a CC permit in VA, not much if any
training required. I wrote this down because I wanted to tell her that
criminals don't need a permit or any training to CC a handgun anywhere they
please.
She said you can't take guns into a church. We corrected her with the
correct VA Code wording "without good and sufficient reason". This is where
they got irritated that we had corrected them and shown that they may not
know everything or be presenting the whole truth. Linda seemed to accept the
correction, but Laura in the back of the room asked us to not interrupt the
meeting again.
She said anyone could bring a gun onto school property as long as they left
the gun cased and in the car.
Next up was Bob Ricker. He introduced himself and ticked off his "gun
credentials". One thing that caught my attention was he said he owned an
"assault weapon". I thought it was odd that he owned a fully automatic rifle
as they are mad expensive and "serve no sporting purpose". Also, being a
speaker a Brady event, why would they want an automatic weapon owner to
speak for them? I know he was referring to a semi-automatic rifle but his
term was incorrect.
He then asked how many permit holders are in VA. We replied 135K. Wow, were
allowed to speak! He then made a blanket statement that all the gun owners
in attendance were VCDL members and asked us to raise our hands to identify
if we were carrying firearms. Those of us OC'ing identified ourselves. He
then asked how many members VCDL has. Jim Kaddison, VCDL EM told him we have
3,500 members. Mr. Ricker then stretched the facts and said "so these folks
(135K permit holders) represent only 1% of the population of VA, they are
not the majority, the rest of the state does not accept their views and
rejects them". I pointed out that 135K persons represent 2% of the
population, not 1%. I also tried to tell him that "not applying for a CC
permit does not in turn equate rejecting the philosophy of VCDL or firearms
ownership in general". I don't remember the exact time when it occurred but
this may have been when Laura from the back of the room said ""This is our
meeting, we don't have to let you talk, and you need to SHUT UP!" Up to this
point we had been correcting the blatant misstatements on an infrequent
basis, but not being negative about it. Just correcting falsehood with
truth.
Bob then said he has a CC permit but rarely uses it. He only goes to "safe
areas" so he rarely has a need. But, he said if he goes to somewhere he
feels might be unsafe or questionable he will CC. He finished off by saying
he didn't know why someone would want to carry all the time when the area is
safe. I called out "Such as a college campus!" I wanted to ask Bob where he
had traveled where he felt unsafe and had CC'd.
Bob next brushed on arming students on campus, and that it was a bad idea to
let "kids" who are just out of high school, 18, 19 years old to carry guns
on campus. He never directly said CC but he implied the "kids" would be
concealed carrying. I wanted to point out that 18-20 year old college
students would be required to OC on campus, which would discourage most of
them from carrying.
Next bob called an Uzi a "long gun". Under the most liberal interpretation
an Uzi is a short barreled rifle. I consider them pistols.
Bob said that campuses do a poor job regulating underage drinking, so how
would they regulate guns on campus any better? He was implying that students
are irresponsible, the school administration doesn't control them, and
adding guns to the equation would have deadly consequences.
Next he talked about VA not doing a good job stopping mentally defective
citizens from buying guns, Cho being an example. He did not allow anyone to
refute this or say VA is one of the better states for reporting mental
problems to the government.
He brought up straw purchases, stating a woman in WV bought six handguns at
one time to pass to criminals. She was prosecuted and served time in prison.
I can't recall if the dealer was prosecuted or not. Somehow, VA is still a
problem for illegal guns even after the one gun a month rule. Bob thinks all
firearms should be registered in a database. I wanted to ask him if we
should regulate and register fertilizer products as well (OKC).
One of the MMM ladies then broke in and asked Bob "what is a semi-automatic
handgun, and what is the benefit of owning one compared to other types of
guns". She implies that semi's are designed to be more efficient killing
tools. I think one of the OCDO members said "They are good enough for the
police, why not us?". Another replied "revolvers take more time to clean,
they have six cylinders" (That comment came after the meeting ended and we
were talking to that lady) The lady repeated "I don't se the need for them"
several times.
Finally according to my notes, Bob said "Have you noticed during sporting
events on TV such as the Super Bowl there are public service announcements
telling viewers not to drink and drive, or smoking is bad for them and
offering assistance to quit? Now, have you ever seen a firearms manufacturer
air a PSA telling kids guns are dangerous, to leave them alone, and find an
adult to secure them?" (I'm paraphrasing what he said, this is not exact. in
fact, none of my quotes are direct quotes) Again, since we weren't allowed
to speak I kept my mouth shut. But, I wanted to tell him no PSA's are
necessary because THERE IS NO PROBLEM concerning firearms like there is for
drunk driving or smoking. You don't waste money airing a PSA for a
non-issue. Smoking is one of the greatest killers known. Drunk driving is a
HUGE problem. He did say the NRA has the "Eddie Eagle" program but in the
next breath he said Eddie Eagle is nothing more than cartoon propaganda like
Joe Camel. After this my notes end stop so I think this is where the meeting
ended.
We stuck around in the room for a few minutes talking to the MMM ladies
answering questions. The one lady with the semi-automatic problem acted very
self righteous and snobby, but was respectful unlike the other lady (Laura).
I could see we were talking to a brick wall and walked outside the room.
In the hallway Laura came walking up to me as I waited on some OCDO members
to finish talking and exit the room. She told me I needed to hand her
literature back to her. I asked her why and she said it was her property and
I had stolen it from her. "Stole them?" I asked. She said "Yes, I paid for
these papers to be printed, they are not for you and you will give them back
to me now". We went back and forth a few times and I decided to give them
back to shut her up. She was really pissed off (had been all night too!). I
informed her that I would be filming the next MMM meeting in Centreville.
She had a hissy fit on the spot and told me several times she wouldn't allow
that to happen. I can't remember but I think I told her that she could not
stop me from taking video of a public meeting in a taxpayer funded library.
I turned and walked away from her.
Hopefully the audio recording that Chefjustin made can correct anything I
typed wrong in this report. This is all from my memory backed up by my
notes. We went to a restaurant later and talked at length about the
experience and I'm hoping I'm not confusing the restaurant talk with the
factual account of what really occurred.
>>
FerdinandAkin
"She [Laura] was really pissed off (had been all night too!)."
This sounds like reason enough to show up at a MMM meeting to me. If by just stating you are exercising your rights you make these people mad, then do so.
edi...@netpath.net
> The meeting started shortly with an introduction by Linda, MMM Northern VA
> Chapter President.
D.C. suburbs there are probably one of the very few REAL chapters
the "Million" Mom March even has. For a long while, the "Million" Mom
March actually listed its local chapters - and how many members each
had; it was all too obvious that their grassroots "strength" was near-
zero in most all areas of America - and, not surprisingly, that
listing eventually disappeared from their Web site. Typical
"chapters" had few enough "members" to comfortably meet around any
dining-room table - often to comfortably meet around a card table!
No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
To Arms!!
appearance in Ft. Worth. Several members of NTARC - North Texas Armed
Rights Coalition attended the meeting. We were well dressed, cordial,
prepared with our own literature, and of course unarmed. Both male
and female NTARC members attended.
There were several speakers and a skit preformed by some high school
students. After the skit was a Q&A session, and I asked how the Brady
Bill could have prevented the situation in the skit. After a very
long pause was the honest answer by one of the students, "It wouldn't
have prevented the event."
Several other uncomfortable questions were asked of the anti-gunners.
They were pretty pissed off.
Outside the meeting room, they had several tables set up with their
propaganda. We placed on the tables some of our literature such as
"HCI Lies" and other NRA, .TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association} and
NTARC literature. It was funny that after the event was almost over
and most of the participants had picked up their literature, that one
of the HCI people discovered that "This isn't OUR information!" As
they tried to pick up our literature, we asked them what they were
doing, that this was a public event in a public building. As fast as
they could pick up our literature, we placed more of our literature on
different tables.
NTARC is no more, but I sure enjoyed the counter protest, including
Sarah Brady, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, and other anti's at gun
shows and other venues.
Pugna pro Patria!!!
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote in message
news:4657ef3f$0$9883$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Herb Martin
"To Arms!!" <toarms...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:465a6dd4$0$16744$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> Outside the meeting room, they had several tables set up with their
> propaganda. We placed on the tables some of our literature such as "HCI
> Lies" and other NRA, .TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association} and NTARC
> literature. It was funny that after the event was almost over and most of
> the participants had picked up their literature, that one of the HCI
> people discovered that "This isn't OUR information!" As they tried to
> pick up our literature, we asked them what they were doing, that this was
> a public event in a public building. As fast as they could pick up our
> literature, we placed more of our literature on different tables.
>
> NTARC is no more, but I sure enjoyed the counter protest, including Sarah
> Brady, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, and other anti's at gun shows and
> other venues.
Very cool.
It might be even cooler to do this while legally carrying a visable firearm
(at least SOME of you.)
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
But you might be assaulted with the smell of urine.....
;-)
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
Herb Martin
"Omelet" <omp_o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:omp_omelet-F617D...@news.giganews.com...
Are you suggesting that "gun control advocates" would engage in criminal
assault merely for people exercising the right to assemble or the right to
speak in a public forum?
BTW, who do you suppose the "gun control advocates" wish to REACH
if they cannot tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with them to attend their
meetings?
If you only argue with those that agree with you then as best you can
avoid LOSING support.
Did you read the recount of the visit to the MMM by the VA group?
The MMM folks were not "nice" but they were not violent nor criminal
either.
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
No, I say they'd pee their pants if they saw a civilian carrying a gun
in the open.
>
> BTW, who do you suppose the "gun control advocates" wish to REACH
> if they cannot tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with them to attend their
> meetings?
I suggest that any gun control advocates are clueless. Period.
>
> If you only argue with those that agree with you then as best you can
> avoid LOSING support.
Huh?
>
> Did you read the recount of the visit to the MMM by the VA group?
No, sorry.
>
> The MMM folks were not "nice" but they were not violent nor criminal
> either.
I have yet to meet a gun advocate that is criminally violent.
Just the opposite in fact.
It's been most refreshing.
Herb Martin
>> >> It might be even cooler to do this while legally carrying a visable
>> >> firearm
>> >> (at least SOME of you.)
>> >
>> > But you might be assaulted with the smell of urine.....
Sorry I took the word "assaulted" literally (and probably didn't even see
the phrase "smell of" -- I thought (incorrectly) that you meant they would
throw body waste at you.
I guess this tells you some of MY assumptions about the behavior of
gun ban advocates.
>> Are you suggesting that "gun control advocates" would engage in criminal
>> assault merely for people exercising the right to assemble or the right
>> to
>> speak in a public forum?
>
> No, I say they'd pee their pants if they saw a civilian carrying a gun
> in the open.
Got it -- finally.
>> BTW, who do you suppose the "gun control advocates" wish to REACH
>> if they cannot tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with them to attend
>> their
>> meetings?
>
> I suggest that any gun control advocates are clueless. Period.
>
>>
>> If you only argue with those that agree with you then as best you can
>> avoid LOSING support.
>
> Huh?
These gun control advocates are actually OFFENDED that those who
support the right to keep and bear arms would ATTEND 'their' meeting.
This means they cannot possibly believe they can sway opinions with
facts and logic.
Some people only wish to have "free speech" with their SUPPORTERS
so they have NO CHANCE of every reaching the opposition.
Imagine the following scenarios (with excellent speakers) and consider
what the likely result would be in each case:
A pro-RKBA advocate speaking to an MMM or Brady rally.
A Gun Control advocate speaking to an RKBA group.
[I would actually love to do the former -- I "speak" for a living and
don't anger easily.]
>> Did you read the recount of the visit to the MMM by the VA group?
> No, sorry.
No apology necessary. It's a fun read but not an important one.
It does describe the MMM groups actual behavior but now get your
funny comment.
>> The MMM folks were not "nice" but they were not violent nor criminal
>> either.
>
> I have yet to meet a gun advocate that is criminally violent.
> Just the opposite in fact.
There probably are a FEW but they are in fact few and far between.
Most are also HIGHLY tolerant of other races/religions/equality of the
sexes etc, and supported of ALL of the Bill of Rights and many other
unenumerated rights as well.
> It's been most refreshing.
Have you tried shooting IDPA yet? You would likely have a great time.
IDPA is much more "relaxed" than the more competive IPSC but they
are both as close as you can get to regular tactical exercise unless you
own your own shooting range.
RD (The Sandman)
No, she was suggesting that some of them may have pissed their pants.
RD
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> "Omelet" <omp_o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:omp_omelet-5B1CF...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <465aa227$0$4640$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> It might be even cooler to do this while legally carrying a visable
> >> >> firearm
> >> >> (at least SOME of you.)
> >> >
> >> > But you might be assaulted with the smell of urine.....
>
> Sorry I took the word "assaulted" literally (and probably didn't even see
> the phrase "smell of" -- I thought (incorrectly) that you meant they would
> throw body waste at you.
I understand... I've occasionally been guilty of not thoroughly reading
posts too.
> >
> > No, I say they'd pee their pants if they saw a civilian carrying a gun
> > in the open.
>
> Got it -- finally.
<lol>
Ever watched "True Lies"?
> >> If you only argue with those that agree with you then as best you can
> >> avoid LOSING support.
> >
> > Huh?
>
> These gun control advocates are actually OFFENDED that those who
> support the right to keep and bear arms would ATTEND 'their' meeting.
>
> This means they cannot possibly believe they can sway opinions with
> facts and logic.
>
> Some people only wish to have "free speech" with their SUPPORTERS
> so they have NO CHANCE of every reaching the opposition.
>
> Imagine the following scenarios (with excellent speakers) and consider
> what the likely result would be in each case:
>
> A pro-RKBA advocate speaking to an MMM or Brady rally.
>
> A Gun Control advocate speaking to an RKBA group.
>
> [I would actually love to do the former -- I "speak" for a living and
> don't anger easily.]
Or a dedicated carnivore speaking at a Peta convention...
And passing out samples.
<eg>
> > I have yet to meet a gun advocate that is criminally violent.
> > Just the opposite in fact.
>
> There probably are a FEW but they are in fact few and far between.
VERY few!
>
> Most are also HIGHLY tolerant of other races/religions/equality of the
> sexes etc, and supported of ALL of the Bill of Rights and many other
> unenumerated rights as well.
>
> > It's been most refreshing.
>
> Have you tried shooting IDPA yet? You would likely have a great time.
Not yet. :-)
It's a matter of geography and chronology.
>
> IDPA is much more "relaxed" than the more competive IPSC but they
> are both as close as you can get to regular tactical exercise unless you
> own your own shooting range.
That's what I understand, and part of the reason I'm interested.
That and the social interaction with kindred souls.
Omelet
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>> It might be even cooler to do this while legally carrying a visable
> >>> firearm
> >>> (at least SOME of you.)
> >>
> >> But you might be assaulted with the smell of urine.....
> >
> > Are you suggesting that "gun control advocates" would engage in
> > criminal assault merely for people exercising the right to assemble or
> > the right to speak in a public forum?
>
> No, she was suggesting that some of them may have pissed their pants.
>
> RD
Got it on one. <giggles>
Benj
edi...@netpath.net wrote:
> D.C. suburbs there are probably one of the very few REAL chapters
> the "Million" Mom March even has. For a long while, the "Million" Mom
> March actually listed its local chapters - and how many members each
> had; it was all too obvious that their grassroots "strength" was near-
> zero in most all areas of America - and, not surprisingly, that
> listing eventually disappeared from their Web site. Typical
> "chapters" had few enough "members" to comfortably meet around any
> dining-room table - often to comfortably meet around a card table!
The "million Mom" thing was just a blatant propaganda attempt by some
folks from the Clinton White House to try to use the capital the "Madd
Mothers" had generated in their (more or less successful) fight
against drunk driving. The idea was, hey, who could doubt the veracity
of your MOM? (Even if she did used to do PR for Slick)
And in spite of a HUGE media puff job, they never really had the
turnout or members. They still don't and probably never will until
some "million(aire) men" start giving them $20 bills to hand out
instead of flyers.
This has ALWAYS been the problem facing anti-gunners. They've got TONS
of cash, and support from MANY high level politicians and people in
power, and softball coverage from the media who puffs their figures,
but the one thing they don't have is MEMBERS! The rabidly anti-gun
U.S. Conference of Mayors (which pretty much sets the agenda for the
anti-gun attack at the city level) published a manual some time ago,
called "Organizing for Handgun Control: A citizens manual". This book
was professional, slick, expensive to produce and (of course) totally
ineffective. I strongly urge you to grab a copy out of your local
library and read it. You won't find a better reference manual for
grassroots pro-gun organizing! Just switch all the pro-and anti
wording and you are there! When they say "How to fight the NRA" you
think "How to fight the Brady Campaign" etc. Your grassroots
organizing manual paid for with anti-gun big money!
They may have the money, and the celebrities and the media in their
hip pocket but WE'VE got the PEOPLE! And the people (even the ones
who don't own guns) are not nearly as stupid as the gun-haters pretend
they are.
Even if a great many politicians dream of being dictator for life,
they are also practical enough to know that they won't even be back in
the job they now have if they don't get enough VOTES. This is why the
Brady Bunch HATE the NRA. The NRA has MEMBERS and they can turn out
VOTES! You can't get elected without votes. Contrary to Democrat
stupidity, "gun control" has NEVER been a "winning issue". It's why
you saw a guy like Kerry who never saw a "gun control" law he
wouldn't vote for running around with an orange vest pretending to be
a hunter. And happily, the American public in spite of the best
efforts of the media to do a snow job, were, for the most part, not
fooled.
Benj
Omelet wrote:
> > > I have yet to meet a gun advocate that is criminally violent.
> > > Just the opposite in fact.
> >
> > There probably are a FEW but they are in fact few and far between.
>
> VERY few!
Exactly! The fact that we even have to discuss this shows the amount
of success the Gun-grabbers have had spreading the myth that any gun
owner is really just a criminal or about to turn into one. Criminals
have guns. Therefore, anyone with a gun is a criminal!
But anyone who KNOWS real criminals knows different (and the anti-gun
crowd BANKS on the fact that the public at large actually has little
experience with either guns or criminals). Criminals are Lazy! They
steal because it's easier than working. They use violence to get
results because its an easier and quicker way to get results. They
care only about themselves, and could give a hoot about politics,
issues, or such. They are pathological liars who even in caught in a
bold lie (they just wandered in your open door and YOU attacked them
unprovoked!) they will switch to a totally different and even OPPOSITE
story in a heartbeat and act like all that went on before didn't even
happen! They are criminals because they are only interested in self
and want the easy way every time.
In short real criminals are NOTHING like law-abiding gun owners. But I
will say that their ways and attitudes DO remind me of a certain bunch
of people. Gosh, it's the people with the SAME idea as criminals!
Disarm all potential victims while allowing all felons to be armed.
Herb Martin
>> Most are also HIGHLY tolerant of other races/religions/equality of the
>> sexes etc, and supported of ALL of the Bill of Rights and many other
>> unenumerated rights as well.
>>
>> > It's been most refreshing.
>>
>> Have you tried shooting IDPA yet? You would likely have a great time.
>
> Not yet. :-)
> It's a matter of geography and chronology.
Don't you live a bit South of Austin? There is a nice groups that shoots
regularly a bit NORTH of San Antonio.
They usually shoot Saturday mornings and that may however be your
temporal problem.
>> IDPA is much more "relaxed" than the more competive IPSC but they
>> are both as close as you can get to regular tactical exercise unless you
>> own your own shooting range.
>
> That's what I understand, and part of the reason I'm interested.
> That and the social interaction with kindred souls.
All you need for IDPA is your regular firearm, your regular holster UNLESS
it won't allow for easy drawing from the hip and easily re-holstering, ammo,
glasses, & ear protection.
They won't even make you join IDPA the first time or so, and that is cheap
anyway.
You won't "win" so just shoot your best and have fun, as no one will give
you ANY grief unless you are UNSAFE, and everyone will try to help
if you ask or make it known you wish it.
Omelet
Benj <bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
> Omelet wrote:
> > > > I have yet to meet a gun advocate that is criminally violent.
> > > > Just the opposite in fact.
> > >
> > > There probably are a FEW but they are in fact few and far between.
> >
> > VERY few!
>
> Exactly! The fact that we even have to discuss this shows the amount
> of success the Gun-grabbers have had spreading the myth that any gun
> owner is really just a criminal or about to turn into one. Criminals
> have guns. Therefore, anyone with a gun is a criminal!
I had one internet friend almost end our friendship when he found out I
got my CHL. :-( He said that anyone that carries a gun is rude.
I finally managed to convince him that nothing had changed. He'd known
me for several years on the list.
>
> But anyone who KNOWS real criminals knows different (and the anti-gun
> crowd BANKS on the fact that the public at large actually has little
> experience with either guns or criminals). Criminals are Lazy! They
> steal because it's easier than working. They use violence to get
> results because its an easier and quicker way to get results. They
> care only about themselves, and could give a hoot about politics,
> issues, or such. They are pathological liars who even in caught in a
> bold lie (they just wandered in your open door and YOU attacked them
> unprovoked!) they will switch to a totally different and even OPPOSITE
> story in a heartbeat and act like all that went on before didn't even
> happen! They are criminals because they are only interested in self
> and want the easy way every time.
Yes.
>
> In short real criminals are NOTHING like law-abiding gun owners. But I
> will say that their ways and attitudes DO remind me of a certain bunch
> of people. Gosh, it's the people with the SAME idea as criminals!
> Disarm all potential victims while allowing all felons to be armed.
Ignorance is not bliss...
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> "Omelet" <omp_o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:omp_omelet-31770...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <465ab02c$0$3241$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
> >> Most are also HIGHLY tolerant of other races/religions/equality of the
> >> sexes etc, and supported of ALL of the Bill of Rights and many other
> >> unenumerated rights as well.
> >>
> >> > It's been most refreshing.
> >>
> >> Have you tried shooting IDPA yet? You would likely have a great time.
> >
> > Not yet. :-)
> > It's a matter of geography and chronology.
>
> Don't you live a bit South of Austin? There is a nice groups that shoots
> regularly a bit NORTH of San Antonio.
Yes.
I just have to get off my butt and get together with them and hope they
use a nearby range. The cost of gas is now getting to be a real
consideration.
>
> They usually shoot Saturday mornings and that may however be your
> temporal problem.
No, I generally shoot on Saturday mornings too, but the range I use is
only 10 miles from where I work.
>
> >> IDPA is much more "relaxed" than the more competive IPSC but they
> >> are both as close as you can get to regular tactical exercise unless you
> >> own your own shooting range.
> >
> > That's what I understand, and part of the reason I'm interested.
> > That and the social interaction with kindred souls.
>
> All you need for IDPA is your regular firearm, your regular holster UNLESS
> it won't allow for easy drawing from the hip and easily re-holstering, ammo,
> glasses, & ear protection.
I do a cross-draw from a fannypack holster.
I'm built wrong to comfortably draw from the strong side hip.
>
> They won't even make you join IDPA the first time or so, and that is cheap
> anyway.
>
> You won't "win" so just shoot your best and have fun, as no one will give
> you ANY grief unless you are UNSAFE, and everyone will try to help
> if you ask or make it known you wish it.
Sounds about like the folks at the range where I shoot.
There is no range master covering the pistol range, just the rifle
range. The pistol range is run by the shooters and they police each
other. Seems to have worked for years...
Herb Martin
> In article <465c7c95$0$19512$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
>> "Omelet" <omp_o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:omp_omelet-31770...@news.giganews.com...
>> > In article <465ab02c$0$3241$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
>> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Most are also HIGHLY tolerant of other races/religions/equality of the
>> >> sexes etc, and supported of ALL of the Bill of Rights and many other
>> >> unenumerated rights as well.
>> >>
>> >> > It's been most refreshing.
>> >>
>> >> Have you tried shooting IDPA yet? You would likely have a great time.
>> >
>> > Not yet. :-)
>> > It's a matter of geography and chronology.
>>
>> Don't you live a bit South of Austin? There is a nice groups that shoots
>> regularly a bit NORTH of San Antonio.
>
> Yes.
>
> I just have to get off my butt and get together with them and hope they
> use a nearby range. The cost of gas is now getting to be a real
> consideration.
The range is (used to be) fairly close to the drive through nature/animal
park north of San Antonio and west of I-35.
It's close enough that I can go there from Austin, and about half that
for you probably.
>> They usually shoot Saturday mornings and that may however be your
>> temporal problem.
>
> No, I generally shoot on Saturday mornings too, but the range I use is
> only 10 miles from where I work.
>> All you need for IDPA is your regular firearm, your regular holster
>> UNLESS
>> it won't allow for easy drawing from the hip and easily re-holstering,
>> ammo,
>> glasses, & ear protection.
>
> I do a cross-draw from a fannypack holster.
> I'm built wrong to comfortably draw from the strong side hip.
Althouh IDCP encourages you to shoot "exactly like" you would carry
in real life the truth is that most people wear an outside the wasteban
holster.
My favorit holster is irritating to re-holster (requires removing the entire
thing, replacing the firearm, then putting it back IWB as a unit.) It's an
odd holster but extremely concealable and comfortable even though it
is NOT designed for repetitive drawing and re-holstering.
>> They won't even make you join IDPA the first time or so, and that is
>> cheap
>> anyway.
>>
>> You won't "win" so just shoot your best and have fun, as no one will give
>> you ANY grief unless you are UNSAFE, and everyone will try to help
>> if you ask or make it known you wish it.
>
> Sounds about like the folks at the range where I shoot.
> There is no range master covering the pistol range, just the rifle
> range. The pistol range is run by the shooters and they police each
> other. Seems to have worked for years...
These will always have Safety Officers and these matches will generally
be MUCH safer (better adherence to the rules of safety) than most all
ranges where you will shoot as an indidivual.
Even though there is a lot more shooting, more movement, more
complexity, the safety practices are much more explicitly encouraged,
briefed, and followed.
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> > I just have to get off my butt and get together with them and hope they
> > use a nearby range. The cost of gas is now getting to be a real
> > consideration.
>
> The range is (used to be) fairly close to the drive through nature/animal
> park north of San Antonio and west of I-35.
>
> It's close enough that I can go there from Austin, and about half that
> for you probably.
I need the address.
Or the URL?
> > I do a cross-draw from a fannypack holster.
> > I'm built wrong to comfortably draw from the strong side hip.
>
> Althouh IDCP encourages you to shoot "exactly like" you would carry
> in real life the truth is that most people wear an outside the wasteban
> holster.
I don't see the point.
There is a reason I shoot skeet.
Fast raise, fast fire, no brainer dealing with the weapon when habits
are installed.
Holster practice is a must at the range to develop "muscle memory"
iykwim?
>
> My favorit holster is irritating to re-holster (requires removing the entire
> thing, replacing the firearm, then putting it back IWB as a unit.) It's an
> odd holster but extremely concealable and comfortable even though it
> is NOT designed for repetitive drawing and re-holstering.
I saw a cop practicing with one of those not too long ago. :-)
Looks workable tho', just annoying to practice with.
> > Sounds about like the folks at the range where I shoot.
> > There is no range master covering the pistol range, just the rifle
> > range. The pistol range is run by the shooters and they police each
> > other. Seems to have worked for years...
>
> These will always have Safety Officers and these matches will generally
> be MUCH safer (better adherence to the rules of safety) than most all
> ranges where you will shoot as an indidivual.
I dunno. Angry glares can be quite intimidating, at least to someone
observant like me. <G> JC got the private e-mails.
>
> Even though there is a lot more shooting, more movement, more
> complexity, the safety practices are much more explicitly encouraged,
> briefed, and followed.
I certainly hope so!
Now, if I can learn to fire thru an adreneline rush...
Sure screwed up my cellphone keypad skills. :-P
Herb Martin
> In article <465daae4$0$14946$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
>
>> > I just have to get off my butt and get together with them and hope they
>> > use a nearby range. The cost of gas is now getting to be a real
>> > consideration.
>>
>> The range is (used to be) fairly close to the drive through nature/animal
>> park north of San Antonio and west of I-35.
>>
>> It's close enough that I can go there from Austin, and about half that
>> for you probably.
>
> I need the address.
> Or the URL?
Cedar Ridge, near New Braunfels so it isn't that far from you.
>> > I do a cross-draw from a fannypack holster.
>> > I'm built wrong to comfortably draw from the strong side hip.
>>
>> Althouh IDCP encourages you to shoot "exactly like" you would carry
>> in real life the truth is that most people wear an outside the wasteban
>> holster.
>
> I don't see the point.
Depends on how your crossdraw/pack is setup -- some holsters like
shoulder holsters point the firearm away from downrange and are (or
may be) frowned upon.
> There is a reason I shoot skeet.
> Fast raise, fast fire, no brainer dealing with the weapon when habits
> are installed.
>
> Holster practice is a must at the range to develop "muscle memory"
> iykwim?
Right. Somethings just aren't practical for "shared practice" and
competitions.
>> My favorit holster is irritating to re-holster (requires removing the
>> entire
>> thing, replacing the firearm, then putting it back IWB as a unit.) It's
>> an
>> odd holster but extremely concealable and comfortable even though it
>> is NOT designed for repetitive drawing and re-holstering.
>
> I saw a cop practicing with one of those not too long ago. :-)
> Looks workable tho', just annoying to practice with.
Right. Practice drawing with it (live) is a lot like dry firing where you
have
to manually cock the firearm for the next shot.
My habit is to practice a presentation (without prepapartion) whenever
I am alone and taking it off. This way I get in at least one draw per
day. <grin> I use the thought "want to take it off" as the "go" signal.
>> These will always have Safety Officers and these matches will generally
>> be MUCH safer (better adherence to the rules of safety) than most all
>> ranges where you will shoot as an indidivual.
>
> I dunno. Angry glares can be quite intimidating, at least to someone
> observant like me. <G> JC got the private e-mails.
Gosh, I have (had to) have talks with some of the "safety" officers in
the commercial indoor ranges (who work for the stores) due to them
ignoring unsafe practices that are clearly posted.
I have also found it necessary to speak out even in a CHL class.
Even SHOT an instructor at a "famous" shooting school's "Hogan's alley
building". No one was seriously injurred as it was a twice ricocheted
round (off the target area into the ceiling and down into the other "room"
of a two lane practical shooting building.)
This was due to four or more things, each one unsafe:
1) Improper briefing (they didn't say what to do if the target FELL
off the target holder) -- she didn't look into the room but we
had been given instructions to follow ALL orders and there
wasn't anything obvious unsafe on visible inspection
Prior briefing should have said, "If a target FALLS then DO
NOT shoot it again no matter what."
2) Safety officer ORDERED me to shoot -- S.O. expected this
target to REQUIRED two rounds, but my big .45 took it out
in 1 so it had already fallen and I shot only once initially.
3) Target fell off the holder into a position where it was NOT backed
by absorbant material -- this was supposed to be a "two HITS
required" target but, as I said, it only took one from my .45 to
break it.
4) There were round-reflective surfaces right below the target
(anyone COULD have missed even with the target in position
but when the target dropped it was centered on this.)
So, you cannot be sure of anything unless you check it yourself.
>> Even though there is a lot more shooting, more movement, more
>> complexity, the safety practices are much more explicitly encouraged,
>> briefed, and followed.
>
> I certainly hope so!
> Now, if I can learn to fire thru an adreneline rush...
That is important too as knowing you are shooting against others, and
shooting for time, messes with your head and really (starts) to test your
training.
HeyBub
> Even SHOT an instructor at a "famous" shooting school's "Hogan's alley
> building". No one was seriously injurred as it was a twice
> ricocheted round (off the target area into the ceiling and down into
> the other "room" of a two lane practical shooting building.)
>
You SHOT a firearms instructor?
Is that an automatic failing grade or did you get a mulligan? Or perhaps
"extra" points?
You knocked the target down with one shot and the "rules" required you to
shoot it again? If in real life, how did your (uninjured) instructors advise
you to respond to the "one shot was post-mortem" testimony?
Are you sure you weren't attending a Chinese Firefighters Academy?
Herb Martin
"HeyBub" <heybub...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:135u9kq...@news.supernews.com...
> Herb Martin wrote:
>> Even SHOT an instructor at a "famous" shooting school's "Hogan's alley
>> building". No one was seriously injurred as it was a twice
>> ricocheted round (off the target area into the ceiling and down into
>> the other "room" of a two lane practical shooting building.)
>>
>
> You SHOT a firearms instructor?
>
> Is that an automatic failing grade or did you get a mulligan? Or perhaps
> "extra" points?
It was the final shot so mostly I just got kidded about it <grin>;
which I would NOT mind at all, except that it overlooked the real
problems.
> You knocked the target down with one shot and the "rules" required you to
> shoot it again? If in real life, how did your (uninjured) instructors
> advise you to respond to the "one shot was post-mortem" testimony?
Problem is a little tough to understand (and it wasn't fully explained to
us):
They had falling targets -- some were specially designed to require TWO
shots to fall. (multiple ceramic breakers holding them I think).
We were instructed to shoot until they fell.
The S.O. was behind me and could not see into the room I was shooting
from concealment/cover by leaning into the doorway to shoot.
She "KNEW" this was a "double-hit" target so when I leaned out and
shot it once (it fell so I quit shooting) and I leaned back -- she insisted
"shoot it again".
So I did, but of course when I leaned out this time it was down. There
was no way I could know this was not the intended behavior as it was
still "upright" -- just dropped from the chest high position.
> Are you sure you weren't attending a Chinese Firefighters Academy?
One of THE premier firearms academies actually.
It's a really nice place (so I am leaving out the name); and I did have
a private talk with the chief instructor who SEEMED to "get" that he
had a safety problem.
The round was pretty much spent after hitting the floor, the steel
beams on the roof, and then coming back down into the "other
shooting gallery" on the opposite side which had another instructor
and student pair.
It hit the other instructor in the arm without breaking the skin --
MY S.O. instructor actually did MORE damage to my arm (in
about the same spot) by (unnecessarily) grabbing me when he
yelled Cease Fire!. (Pretty good but actually unimportant bruises
where you could count every one of her fingers from the grab
on my upper arm.)
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> > I need the address.
> > Or the URL?
>
> http://www.texastactical.net
>
> texast...@yahoo.com
>
> Cedar Ridge, near New Braunfels so it isn't that far from you.
Thank you!
> > I don't see the point.
>
> Depends on how your crossdraw/pack is setup -- some holsters like
> shoulder holsters point the firearm away from downrange and are (or
> may be) frowned upon.
I see...
When I do holster practice any more, I make sure that I do it from the
far left end of the range if there are other shooters. I can see the
concern.
> >> Even though there is a lot more shooting, more movement, more
> >> complexity, the safety practices are much more explicitly encouraged,
> >> briefed, and followed.
> >
> > I certainly hope so!
> > Now, if I can learn to fire thru an adreneline rush...
>
> That is important too as knowing you are shooting against others, and
> shooting for time, messes with your head and really (starts) to test your
> training.
>
I think that is the general idea of IDPA, aside from the sporting aspect.
nakedsh...@gmail.com
I am the individual who wrote the story about our first experience
with the MMM at the start of this topic. We went back last night; I
filmed the event. Before they started the MMM organizers asked me to
sign a release that the video would only be used privately and not
publicly disseminated. I refused so the cancelled their meeting on the
spot!
Video here:
#1 http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZAsyrBTvN2g
#2 http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lc8uXTfpdHM
#3 http://youtube.com/watch?v=-CnDvnPFzL0
NSL
Northern, VA
Omelet
nakedsh...@gmail.com wrote:
That was interesting... ;-)
Took you long enough to mention the first amendment.
Herb Martin
<nakedsh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181050840.9...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Glad you are here too.
Good job.
Did anyone open carry at this meeting? If not, why not?
Alex Clayton
Glad you did that. It was interesting to watch them.
--
"Liberalism is a mental disorder."
Michael Savage
nakedsh...@gmail.com
>
> Did anyone open carry at this meeting? If not, why not?
No, we did not OC at the second meeting. The MMM claimed we OC'd as an
intimidation tactic at the first meeting so to make them feel better
we either did not carry or concealed. Also, when we OC'd they tried to
use it against us to show how insensitive we were toward their
sensibilities.
Herb Martin
<nakedsh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181176759.5...@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Having read your experiences on the two meetings, I find it ironic
that they were MORE intimidated by the camera (exposing their
lies one presumes) than by your firearms openly carried since they
continued the meeting when you carried but canceled when the
only "weapon" was a camera.
How do you know that no one concealed at the second meeting? <grin>