Re: Citizen reload?
Peter Franks
# In article <fuoh09$33m$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# Peter Franks <peter....@cox.net> wrote:
#
# # Omelet wrote:
# # # In article <fund0l$jod$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# # # Peter Franks <peter....@cox.net> wrote:
# #
# # # Oh really? How? You are only going to fire to stop a threat.
# # # Same as they are.
# #
# # Self-defense and law enforcement are two different aspects entirely that
# # share overlap with tools used. I wanted to limit this discussion to
# # non-LEO situations because I'm not LEO and have no intention of acting
# # like I am.
#
# Most of the rest of us are not either, but you are allowed in some
# states to help another person if you see a crime being committed against
# them. A perfect example was one account I read of a couple of years ago
# where a woman was being assaulted in front of a store.
#
# Her ex' was stabbing her and several people kept yelling at him to stop.
# (Yah right!). Finally he doused her in gasoline and was about to strike
# a match.
#
# A man in the crowd drew his firearm and told the man (iirc) "Stop or
# I'll shoot you, run and I'll kill you".
#
# That stopped him. ;-) The man held the slimeball at gunpoint until the
# police got there, then quietly faded into the crowd.
#
# The account I read said that the police never did find out who it was...
# and they did not go thru any great effort to find out. ;-)
#
# #
# # # # # If you ever have to actually _use_ your firearm, what is wrong with
# # # # # having backup ammo for emergencies?
# # # #
# # # # There is nothing wrong with having an extra magazine, or two, or ten, in
# # # # my opinion. I'm curious as to what are some legitimate reasons to have
# # # # an extra. 'Just because', 'because I can', 'because I want to', and
# # # # 'why not' are just fine for personal reasons, but from an independent
# # # # application perspective, they don't hold much weight.
# # # #
# # # # # You never know what you will have
# # # # # to deal with if TSHTF.
# # # #
# # # # That is the case. So, I try to plan for 80% of potential scenarios.
# # # # From what I see, have heard, and been trained on, the preparation for
# # # # the remaining 20% of situations increases exponentially.
# # #
# # # Give me a good reason to NOT carry extra magazines please?
# # # You appear to be evading that issue.
# #
# # Asked and answered elsewhere. I don't have any good reason to NOT carry
# # extra magazines.
#
# Thank you. Then why are you making such a big fuss about it?
# Carrying extra mags is a personal preference. Why do I need a set
# "reason" to do it?
I'm not making a fuss about it. I'm asking a question. If the answer
to the question is 'personal preference', then fine.
# My answer is "just in case I need it". Period. It really is that
# simple...
Yeah, ok.
But need it for /what/? That's the source of my question.
Peter Franks
# It doesn't reduce the odds of death, but increases the odds of survival.
# Sorry you just don't get that.
I'd suggest that carrying a second weapon would increase your odds of
survival.
I'm not convinced that carrying an extra magazine increases the odds of
survival for the reasons that I've responded to elsewhere.
# "Peter Franks" <peter....@cox.net> wrote in message
# news:fur3n7$2bv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # That's right. And is an extra magazine the best option to reduce the
# # odds of death?
# #
# # I'm not convinced it is.
# #
Peter Franks
# Peter Franks wrote:
#
# # odds of death?
# #
# # I'm not convinced it is.
#
# not the best option to reduce the odds of death. Is that sufficient
# reason not to carry one?
Nope. Don't really care about reasons to not carry. Looking for
reasons to carry and extra magazine.
Scout
Simple. It part of a standard extended clearing drill if you suffer a
stoppage with your sidearm. It also allows you the option of a combat reload
during any pause in the conflict. Such as after the bad guy goes down, but
before you break cover. Sure, much of the time it isn't likely to be
strictly necessary, but then the same can be said of the gun itself. I
personally find it a lot easier to carry another mag than to carry a second
gun. Both in terms of weight and in bulk.
Wilbur Hubbard
<bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
>St. John Smythe wrote:
># Peter Franks wrote:
>#
># # That's right. And is an extra magazine the best option to reduce the
># # odds of death?
># #
># # I'm not convinced it is.
>#
># O.K., let's say, for the sake of discussion, that an extra magazine is
># not the best option to reduce the odds of death. Is that sufficient
># reason not to carry one?
>
>Probably your best option to reduce the odds of meeting a violent death
>is to live in a cell in solitary confinement. That's assuming the
>prison has friendly guards.
>
>
>This whole thread is stupid.
At last, a voice crying in the wilderness. Carry whatever keeps you
happy!
And, for God's sake end this silly thread!
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
>Win a Fulton Armory "Classic" AR-15 with Black Hills Ammo
>while supporting our RKBA. Details at http://www.myguns.net
>-----------------------------------------------------------
slate_leeper
<peter....@cox.net> wrote:
>Nope. Don't really care about reasons to not carry. Looking for
>reasons to carry and extra magazine.
Ever competed in any form of Practical Pistol? During any match you
will see:
Magazines dropped out of the gun accidentally.
Magazines that don't function properly.
"Double feed" jams that require stripping out the magazine to clear.
The magazine is actually the weakest part of the semi-auto handgun.
When the life of a loved one or of yourself is on the line, having a
spare is plain good sense.
-dan z-
--
Protect your civil rights!
Let the politicians know how you feel.
Join or donate to the NRA today!
http://membership.nrahq.org/default.asp?campaignid=XR014887
Herb Martin
"slate_leeper" <bycy...@spamex.com> wrote in message
news:qga6149gmh0fk09eb...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:34:03 +0000 (UTC), Peter Franks
> <peter....@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Nope. Don't really care about reasons to not carry. Looking for
>>reasons to carry and extra magazine.
>
> Ever competed in any form of Practical Pistol? During any match you
> will see:
Not that many actually and many fewer by those who practice and
compete regularly.
> Magazines dropped out of the gun accidentally.
Almost never see this.'
> Magazines that don't function properly.
Almost never.
> "Double feed" jams that require stripping out the magazine to clear.
Almost never.
(Some jams occasionally, but almost never that REQUIRE removing
the mag.)
> The magazine is actually the weakest part of the semi-auto handgun.
Probably true -- unless it is the "feed" itself.
> When the life of a loved one or of yourself is on the line, having a
> spare is plain good sense.
And as Clint Smith says (words to the effect), "A gunfight is usually
won by whoever fires LAST, will you have enough ammo?"
Omelet
Peter Franks <peter....@cox.net> wrote:
Uh, need it for the same reason I carry a gun in the first place.
Why is this so hard for you to fathom?
--
--
Peace! Om
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a Bitch."
-- Jack Nicholson
Omelet
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
Agreed.
The Keltec P3-AT tho' is a nice backup gun, but a .380 is not nearly as
good at stopping ability as either the 9mm or the .40.
But it's better than nothing.
And I agree, an extra mag is easier to carry than an extra gun.
Scout
"Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ompomelet-F7E75...@news.giganews.com...
As someone once said during an arguement over the preferable caliber of
choice for a self defense pistol. The only unacceptable caliber is the one
that's in the gun you leave at home because you aren't comfortable carrying
it.
> But it's better than nothing.
Better a .22 short you have with you than a .44mag you've left at home.
:-)
Omelet
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
> I
> >> personally find it a lot easier to carry another mag than to carry a
> >> second
> >> gun. Both in terms of weight and in bulk.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > The Keltec P3-AT tho' is a nice backup gun, but a .380 is not nearly as
> > good at stopping ability as either the 9mm or the .40.
>
> As someone once said during an arguement over the preferable caliber of
> choice for a self defense pistol. The only unacceptable caliber is the one
> that's in the gun you leave at home because you aren't comfortable carrying
> it.
Absolutely.
>
> > But it's better than nothing.
>
> Better a .22 short you have with you than a .44mag you've left at home.
>
> :-)
Mm, I'll pass on the .22 and carry the Keltec.
Altho' that Winchester super X .22 LR ammo I used for Rabbit hunting a
couple of weeks ago gave me amazing results. It was on sale at Cabela's
and I intend to get more of it. .22 usually leaves neat little holes.
This stuff was literally explosive... I was shocked!
Fired in a Remington Nylon 66, it literally took the back of one rabbits
head off. Ones that got body shot had serious internal damage and went
down with one shot.
But, rabbits are not human beings and I wonder about how it'd work in my
Iver Johnson or .22 revolver.
Benj
<me4g...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
> > But it's better than nothing.
>
> Better a .22 short you have with you than a .44mag you've left at home.
>
> :-)
Absolutely true! And let me make a couple of points here about "gun
control" propaganda. Anti-gunners always make the point that the
"only purpose" of a firearm (they always call them "guns" for some
reason) is "to kill". This is of course a complete lie. The purpose
of a defensive firearm is to "dominate a hostile transaction". (Some
firearms have other purposes such as hunting or target shooting or
other sporting activities)
Pro-gunners who are "clinging to their guns" often go on and on about
"stopping power" and the "right" caliber to use for self-defense. But
the actual truth is that NOBODY wants to get shot with a gun of ANY
caliber! Therefore, virtually ANY caliber firearm is capable of
stopping a crime in it's tracks without firing a shot! This happens
an estimated millions of times each year. The mere presence of ANY
gun in the victims hand can stop a "potential" crime cold! And it
happens often. No shots fired.
Yes, a firearm with more "stopping power" is better than some tiny .22
but not everyone can handle a .44 mag. And if you've got ANY firearm
knowledge AT ALL, (liberals can bow out here) you know that firing a .
44 mag INSIDE YOUR HOUSE without ear protection is the LAST thing you
want to do. Not to mention that the massive recoil makes control of
the firearm iffy at best even if you are large guy. A .22 may be the
CIA assassination weapon of choice, and it may take the criminal days
to die after being shot, but the deterrence power is still there.
Which brings up one final point about firearms and self-defense. As
I've grown older and worked with older ladies in particular, I find
that there is a VERY serious issue of self-defense firearms for people
with arthritis who cannot operate normal firearms. They find the
action of revolvers far too stiff to operate even using two hands and
same goes for double action only autos. And when it comes to semi-
auto firearms working the slide on even a .22 can be a near
impossibility because of the way the design often forces a person to
'grip" the slide to pull it and a person without strength simply
cannot operate the slide! This often means that older folks simply
must sit in their houses like sitting ducks waiting for the next teen
gang to seek an "easy hit". Here is an invention just begging to be
invented. Perhaps an electrically operated firearm that an old or
sick person can operate without strength in their hands! I tell you
there is some money to be made here and old or sick people to be
saved. After all, the sick and the weak are EXACTLY the people
criminals choose as victims because they are lazy and and don't want a
fight. Put your thinking caps on!
Benj
> In article <y6NQj.2186$Rk6.1806@trnddc07>,
>
> > I
> > >> personally find it a lot easier to carry another mag than to carry a
> > >> second
> > >> gun. Both in terms of weight and in bulk.
>
> > > Agreed.
>
> > > The Keltec P3-AT tho' is a nice backup gun, but a .380 is not nearly as
> > > good at stopping ability as either the 9mm or the .40.
>
> > As someone once said during an arguement over the preferable caliber of
> > choice for a self defense pistol. The only unacceptable caliber is the one
> > that's in the gun you leave at home because you aren't comfortable carrying
> > it.
>
> Absolutely.
>
>
>
> > > But it's better than nothing.
>
> > Better a .22 short you have with you than a .44mag you've left at home.
>
> > :-)
>
> Mm, I'll pass on the .22 and carry the Keltec.
>
> Altho' that Winchester super X .22 LR ammo I used for Rabbit hunting a
> couple of weeks ago gave me amazing results. It was on sale at Cabela's
> and I intend to get more of it. .22 usually leaves neat little holes.
>
> This stuff was literally explosive... I was shocked!
The rabbits "exploded" from a .22 ???? Say, you guys don't happen to
live in Oakland Ca. and work for the chief of police there do you? I'm
sure you've heard that a ,50 cal. rifle makes a whole deer "explode",
right?
> Fired in a Remington Nylon 66, it literally took the back of one rabbits
> head off. Ones that got body shot had serious internal damage and went
> down with one shot.
>
> But, rabbits are not human beings and I wonder about how it'd work in my
> Iver Johnson or .22 revolver.
I never shot a human being (nor have any desire to no matter what gun-
grabbers say about gun owners) but the last rabbits I shot were easily
killed by a couple of tiny pellets out of a 12 gauge shotgun. They did
NOT "explode"! They WERE eaten. They were NOT wrapped in pretty
plastic at the supermarket.
Omelet
<f4fbaf27-5f69-40a9...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Benj <bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
> > > Better a .22 short you have with you than a .44mag you've left at home.
> >
> > > :-)
> >
> > Mm, I'll pass on the .22 and carry the Keltec.
> >
> > Altho' that Winchester super X .22 LR ammo I used for Rabbit hunting a
> > couple of weeks ago gave me amazing results. It was on sale at Cabela's
> > and I intend to get more of it. .22 usually leaves neat little holes.
> >
> > This stuff was literally explosive... I was shocked!
>
> The rabbits "exploded" from a .22 ????
No babe, just the back of it's head.
Brains splattered.
> Say, you guys don't happen to
> live in Oakland Ca. and work for the chief of police there do you? I'm
> sure you've heard that a ,50 cal. rifle makes a whole deer "explode",
> right?
Depends on the muzzle velocity, and the range and distance.
I saw a demo with a .223 hollowpoint yesterday from an AR-15. .223 is
pretty small but it's average velocity is 3,200 fps. The officer fired
at a water jug from about 10 yards. It exploded, ripped nearly in half
and jumped about 10 ft. into the air.
>
>
> > Fired in a Remington Nylon 66, it literally took the back of one rabbits
> > head off. Ones that got body shot had serious internal damage and went
> > down with one shot.
> >
> > But, rabbits are not human beings and I wonder about how it'd work in my
> > Iver Johnson or .22 revolver.
>
> I never shot a human being (nor have any desire to no matter what gun-
> grabbers say about gun owners)
Neither do I.
> but the last rabbits I shot were easily
> killed by a couple of tiny pellets out of a 12 gauge shotgun. They did
> NOT "explode"!
Uh, babe, I did not say the rabbit exploded. I said that I blew the
entire back of one rabbit's head off, and any that got gut shot, I had
to discard some of the meat due to the damage.
> They WERE eaten. They were NOT wrapped in pretty
> plastic at the supermarket.
I personally skinned and gutted the 7 we shot for me the last day. And I
stewed them. I'm perfectly capable of dressing out a rabbit. They are
one of the easier animals to do.
The 6 we shot Tuesday night, I cleaned 3 and the other hunter cleaned 3
and a third member of our hunting party made rabbit curry Wednesday
night.
Jim Alder
@news.giganews.com:
> In article <fuv3v5$hmo$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
> Peter Franks <peter....@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> # # # Give me a good reason to NOT carry extra magazines please?
>> # # # You appear to be evading that issue.
>> # #
>> # # Asked and answered elsewhere. I don't have any good reason to NOT
carry
>> # # extra magazines.
>> #
>> # Thank you. Then why are you making such a big fuss about it?
>> # Carrying extra mags is a personal preference. Why do I need a set
>> # "reason" to do it?
>>
>> I'm not making a fuss about it. I'm asking a question. If the answer
>> to the question is 'personal preference', then fine.
>>
>> # My answer is "just in case I need it". Period. It really is that
>> # simple...
>>
>> Yeah, ok.
>>
>> But need it for /what/? That's the source of my question.
>
> Uh, need it for the same reason I carry a gun in the first place.
>
> Why is this so hard for you to fathom?
I think I can solve this dilemma for you two with a little story. I used to
live in Houston till about ten years ago. Read a news story there about a cop
who spotted some activity in a remote part of the city and investigated.
Turned out it was a batch of gang members stripping a stolen car. Chaos ensued
in the form of a gun fight and it wasn't long before the cop was wounded and
losing.
Along comes an armed citizen. He joins in the fight and finally exhausted
three fifteen round magazines! He saved the cop. The story caught my interest
because at the time it was illegal to carry in your car or on your person. I
knew the cops wouldn't pursue that, but I was curious how they would explain
their reluctance to do so. Sure enough, the next day the story had the added
detail that the good Samaritan was "a retired gunsmith" as if that allowed him
to do what every other citizen could not. But that's another story.
The answer here is, the guy had 45 rounds (probably 46) and needed every
one. You never know what you're going to encounter. I live in a small town in
Ohio, so I don't expect to ever come across a major gun battle like that. But
it could happen, I suppose. I only carry a titanium 5 shot revolver. I keep a
couple extra speedloaders in the car, and might put one in my pocket if the
mood strikes, which is usually after seeing a Bruce Willis movie. <g> I've
never had to produce it, let alone use it. And that's fine with me.
--
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm
to pass... it's about learning to dance
in the rain."
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
Good story, thanks!
Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine and keep it
in the glove box. <g>
The mags hold 17 rounds.
Jim Alder
@news.giganews.com:
> Good story, thanks!
And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
> Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine and keep it
> in the glove box. <g>
I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's something
comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the country as a
whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!) maybe a polymer Kahr in
.40 or .45.
> The mags hold 17 rounds.
Sounds like a Glock. Never liked the triggers.
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in news:ompomelet-1FD3DB.22274027042008
> @news.giganews.com:
>
> > Good story, thanks!
>
> And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
>
> > Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine and keep it
> > in the glove box. <g>
>
> I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's something
> comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the country as
> a
> whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!) maybe a polymer Kahr in
> .40 or .45.
Capacity is not everything. When I have the money to start collecting
more, I'll probably get a couple more revolvers. I have 2. The other is
only a .22 but it holds 9 rounds.
Thing is, if you have moon clips or speed loaders and are GOOD with
them, a semi-auto will have nothing on a revolver for those that really
know how to use one. I've seen some impressive youtube videos.
>
> > The mags hold 17 rounds.
>
> Sounds like a Glock. Never liked the triggers.
Glock triggers can be fixed. I had my dad's Glock 19 worked on by a
glocksmith at the gun show. WORLD of difference now! Brought my 25 yard
group with it down from 12" to 5". My Ruger Redhawk .357 does better
than that at that range, but that gun is WAY to big to carry. It's like
"are you packing or are you happy to see me"? <g>
http://i30.tinypic.com/1zcd9js.jpg
But no, my carry weapon is not a Glock. It's the Taurus PT-92. A Beretta
clone. I carry that instead of my S&W 4043 .40 because it has, to date,
never jammed on anything I've fed it with the single exception of round
#7 of 10 rounds of Snake shot I tested in it. Those are best fired from
revolvers but they do come in 9mm. It just mis-fed so was easy to clear.
http://i29.tinypic.com/2yw7tcw.jpg
It is also the weapon I'm the most accurate with at the range. I really
do love that gun. :-)
Herb Martin
> In article <Xns9A8DF14055A8j...@216.196.97.142>,
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:ompomelet-1FD3DB.22274027042008
>> @news.giganews.com:
>>
>> > Good story, thanks!
>>
>> And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
>>
>> > Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine and keep it
>> > in the glove box. <g>
>>
>> I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's
>> something
>> comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the country
>> as
>> a
>> whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!) maybe a polymer Kahr
>> in
>> .40 or .45.
>
> Capacity is not everything.
No but it beats running dry.
> Thing is, if you have moon clips or speed loaders and are GOOD with
> them, a semi-auto will have nothing on a revolver for those that really
> know how to use one. I've seen some impressive youtube videos.
The same amount of practice will get you more with the semi.
Have you ever seen how fast the TOP loaders go?
I am no champion but there is barely a pause.
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ompomelet-F5A97...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <Xns9A8DF14055A8j...@216.196.97.142>,
> > Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:ompomelet-1FD3DB.22274027042008
> >> @news.giganews.com:
> >>
> >> > Good story, thanks!
> >>
> >> And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
> >>
> >> > Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine and keep it
> >> > in the glove box. <g>
> >>
> >> I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's
> >> something
> >> comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the country
> >> as
> >> a
> >> whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!) maybe a polymer Kahr
> >> in
> >> .40 or .45.
> >
> > Capacity is not everything.
>
> No but it beats running dry.
True dat.
>
> > Thing is, if you have moon clips or speed loaders and are GOOD with
> > them, a semi-auto will have nothing on a revolver for those that really
> > know how to use one. I've seen some impressive youtube videos.
>
> The same amount of practice will get you more with the semi.
>
> Have you ever seen how fast the TOP loaders go?
>
> I am no champion but there is barely a pause.
Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for capacity
and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that there is
nothing wrong with that. :-)
Watch the last set of rounds here using a revolver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro62xajzH8w&feature
Herb Martin
> In article <48157d24$3$30479$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
> Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for capacity
> and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that there is
> nothing wrong with that. :-)
My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't
wear all that well.
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Good story, thanks!
>>
>> And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
>>
>> > Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine
>> > and keep it in the glove box. <g>
>>
>> I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's something
>> comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the country
as
>> a whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!) maybe a polymer Kahr
in
>> .40 or .45.
>
> Capacity is not everything. When I have the money to start collecting
> more, I'll probably get a couple more revolvers. I have 2. The other is
> only a .22 but it holds 9 rounds.
I recommend the Taurus line. A vast assortment of calibers and materials.
A steel blue one is very inexpensive but as well made and accurate as a Smith,
I think. Mine is at the other end of the spectrum, pricewise. It's titanium
and I've installed a set of Crimson Trace laser grips. <g>
> Thing is, if you have moon clips or speed loaders and are GOOD with
> them, a semi-auto will have nothing on a revolver for those that really
> know how to use one. I've seen some impressive youtube videos.
Yeah, I've seen some miracles. One guy shot six shots into a playing
card, reloaded and shot six more in less than three seconds. Showy but not all
that practical.
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earpm
>> > The mags hold 17 rounds.
>>
>> Sounds like a Glock. Never liked the triggers.
>
> Glock triggers can be fixed.
I've only tried one that had been 'fixed' to my satisfaction. But it still
didn't compare to a Kahr out of the box.
> I had my dad's Glock 19 worked on by a
> glocksmith at the gun show. WORLD of difference now! Brought my 25 yard
> group with it down from 12" to 5". My Ruger Redhawk .357 does better
> than that at that range, but that gun is WAY to big to carry. It's like
> "are you packing or are you happy to see me"? <g>
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/1zcd9js.jpg
Uh, yeah. I think you made the right choice not carrying that one.
> But no, my carry weapon is not a Glock. It's the Taurus PT-92. A Beretta
> clone. I carry that instead of my S&W 4043 .40 because it has, to date,
> never jammed on anything I've fed it with the single exception of round
> #7 of 10 rounds of Snake shot I tested in it. Those are best fired from
> revolvers but they do come in 9mm. It just mis-fed so was easy to clear.
>
> http://i29.tinypic.com/2yw7tcw.jpg
Too big for my situation. If I decide to go bigger than my lightweight
revolver, I have a S&W Tactical 4013 in the safe. It's got three extra
magazines and a shoulder holster. Alas, I don't think CTC makes a laser for it
yet.
> It is also the weapon I'm the most accurate with at the range. I really
> do love that gun. :-)
You might want to look around a few gun shows for the real thing. Real
Berettas have suddenly gone into the bargain bin. I bought a 92 for $400 the
other day, and it had Crimson Trace laser grips on it!! It only had a little
wear, so I put the original grips back on it and saved the laser ones, then
sold it again for a measly $420! I put the grips on a 96 (.40 S&W) and can't
seem to sell it. I may start carrying it in the car in a lock box. Just in
case I come across a cop battling gangbangers. <g>
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ompomelet-6A1AC...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <48157d24$3$30479$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> >
> > Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for capacity
> > and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that there is
> > nothing wrong with that. :-)
>
> My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
> usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't
> wear all that well.
You mean for comfort/concealment?
A good fannypack holster like mine takes care of that issue:
Front view. I paid $40.00 for this holster. Comparable
to any other good quality one. This is a right handed
holster but left handed ones are available. I wear mine
forward of the left hip as a crossdraw is easiest and fastest
for me due to my "build":
http://i31.tinypic.com/28jh4qu.jpg
Top view. As you can see, it has plenty of room
for a wallet, comb, etc.:
http://i26.tinypic.com/1zve9lz.jpg
View of holster opening. Unlike most holsters that
have a "rip cord", this one has a double buckle. One
for fastening the 2" belt around the waist, and the other
to secure the gun pouch closed. The buckle is easy to open
and a strong pull to the opposite corner opens the two
zippers that secure it:
http://i26.tinypic.com/2a6l6ic.jpg
View of open holster. The zippers, if maintained, open
easily making the gun easy to get to. I can draw in
1 second or less. The inner and outer layer of the gun
pouch is lined between fabric layers with stiff plastic.
This protects the gun from sweat and moisture and stiffens
the pouch so it's not "floppy". There is no wrinkled fabric
for the gun to catch on when drawing it:
http://i29.tinypic.com/2vbk5za.jpg
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Good story, thanks!
> >>
> >> And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
> >>
> >> > Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine
> >> > and keep it in the glove box. <g>
> >>
> >> I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's something
> >> comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the country
> as
> >> a whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!) maybe a polymer Kahr
> in
> >> .40 or .45.
> >
> > Capacity is not everything. When I have the money to start collecting
> > more, I'll probably get a couple more revolvers. I have 2. The other is
> > only a .22 but it holds 9 rounds.
>
> I recommend the Taurus line.
So do I. As seen below, my favorite carry gun is a Taurus. Dad and I are
currently looking at the Taurus "Judge".
> A vast assortment of calibers and
> materials.
> A steel blue one is very inexpensive but as well made and accurate as a
> Smith,
> I think. Mine is at the other end of the spectrum, pricewise. It's titanium
> and I've installed a set of Crimson Trace laser grips. <g>
Fun. :-) Dad's Glock 19 has a built in laser site.
>
> > Thing is, if you have moon clips or speed loaders and are GOOD with
> > them, a semi-auto will have nothing on a revolver for those that really
> > know how to use one. I've seen some impressive youtube videos.
>
> Yeah, I've seen some miracles. One guy shot six shots into a playing
> card, reloaded and shot six more in less than three seconds. Showy but not
> all
> that practical.
>
> "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earpm
And a slow hit is better than a fast miss!
>
> >> > The mags hold 17 rounds.
> >>
> >> Sounds like a Glock. Never liked the triggers.
> >
> > Glock triggers can be fixed.
>
> I've only tried one that had been 'fixed' to my satisfaction. But it still
> didn't compare to a Kahr out of the box.
>
> > I had my dad's Glock 19 worked on by a
> > glocksmith at the gun show. WORLD of difference now! Brought my 25 yard
> > group with it down from 12" to 5". My Ruger Redhawk .357 does better
> > than that at that range, but that gun is WAY to big to carry. It's like
> > "are you packing or are you happy to see me"? <g>
> >
> > http://i30.tinypic.com/1zcd9js.jpg
>
> Uh, yeah. I think you made the right choice not carrying that one.
<snicker>
It's a house gun but my main home defense weapon is a Mossberg 500 20
gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
>
> > But no, my carry weapon is not a Glock. It's the Taurus PT-92. A Beretta
> > clone. I carry that instead of my S&W 4043 .40 because it has, to date,
> > never jammed on anything I've fed it with the single exception of round
> > #7 of 10 rounds of Snake shot I tested in it. Those are best fired from
> > revolvers but they do come in 9mm. It just mis-fed so was easy to clear.
> >
> > http://i29.tinypic.com/2yw7tcw.jpg
>
> Too big for my situation. If I decide to go bigger than my lightweight
> revolver, I have a S&W Tactical 4013 in the safe. It's got three extra
> magazines and a shoulder holster. Alas, I don't think CTC makes a laser for
> it
> yet.
I'm comfortable with a full sized pistol due to the way I carry. My
holster is shown in my previous post.
The Keltec P3-AT fits in a pocket for backup.
Since I am female, a fannypack holster is acceptable, and comfortable
with that 2" belt. With 2 full mags tho', it does strain my back a bit
after a few hours. Gives me sympathy for cops. That's 34 rounds.
>
> > It is also the weapon I'm the most accurate with at the range. I really
> > do love that gun. :-)
>
> You might want to look around a few gun shows for the real thing. Real
> Berettas have suddenly gone into the bargain bin. I bought a 92 for $400 the
> other day, and it had Crimson Trace laser grips on it!! It only had a little
> wear, so I put the original grips back on it and saved the laser ones, then
> sold it again for a measly $420! I put the grips on a 96 (.40 S&W) and can't
> seem to sell it. I may start carrying it in the car in a lock box. Just in
> case I come across a cop battling gangbangers. <g>
<lol> Be careful what you wish for...
And thanks for the hints about Berettas. I'll look around but I do like
Taurus!
Herb Martin
> In article <48160e6a$3$30489$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
>> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ompomelet-6A1AC...@news.giganews.com...
>> > In article <48157d24$3$30479$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
>> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for capacity
>> > and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that there
>> > is
>> > nothing wrong with that. :-)
>>
>> My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
>> usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't
>> wear all that well.
>
> You mean for comfort/concealment?
>
> A good fannypack holster like mine takes care of that issue:
I prefer true concealment.
Omelet
"Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ompomelet-22347...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <48160e6a$3$30489$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:ompomelet-6A1AC...@news.giganews.com...
> >> > In article <48157d24$3$30479$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> >> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for capacity
> >> > and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that there
> >> > is
> >> > nothing wrong with that. :-)
> >>
> >> My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
> >> usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't
> >> wear all that well.
> >
> > You mean for comfort/concealment?
> >
> > A good fannypack holster like mine takes care of that issue:
>
> I prefer true concealment.
<snicker>
I wear it in public all the time. To date, the ONLY person that's
recognized it as a holster was the bank security guard! Nobody else has
a clue. It's very much "real" concealment.
I've since enlightened the current set of rookies at our local PD tho'
when I volunteered to play "bad guy" for one of their training sessions.
I'm currently taking the local "Citizens Police Academy" class and
they'd asked for volunteers. 4 of us showed up.
Most normal cheap fanny packs have a 1" to 1 1/2" belt. Holsters have a
1 1/2" to 2" belt and are more heavily built.
Big difference.
Benj
> > My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
> usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't
> wear all that well.
Ah yes. If I recall correctly, the technical name for that problem is
called "turtle in the pants effect"!
:-)
Jim Alder
@news.giganews.com:
> In article <48161ba2$2$30480$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>
>> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ompomelet-22347...@news.giganews.com...
>> > In article <48160e6a$3$30489$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
>> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:ompomelet-6A1AC...@news.giganews.com...
>> >> > In article <48157d24$3$30479$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
>> >> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for capacity
>> >> > and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that there
>> >> > is nothing wrong with that. :-)
>> >>
>> >> My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
>> >> usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't wear all that
>> >> well.
>> >
>> > You mean for comfort/concealment?
>> >
>> > A good fannypack holster like mine takes care of that issue:
>>
>> I prefer true concealment.
>
> <snicker>
>
> I wear it in public all the time. To date, the ONLY person that's
> recognized it as a holster was the bank security guard! Nobody else has
> a clue. It's very much "real" concealment.
A friend of mine used to wear one in his comic book store in Houston. A
couple cops came in one time to shop and on the way out, or in conversation,
one said "So, what kind of gun are you carrying?"
What did the bank guard say?
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>> >> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Good story, thanks!
>> >>
>> >> And true, even! Give or take lie or two. <g>
>> >>
>> >> > Might convince me to go ahead and load my 3rd 9mm magazine and keep it
in
>> >> > the glove box. <g>
>> >>
>> >> I've considered trading the revolver for an auto, but there's
something
>> >> comforting about a revolver's simplicity. In a big city or if the
>> >> country as a whole gets more dangerous (terrorists in the mall!)
maybe
>> >> a polymer Kahr in .40 or .45.
>> >
>> > Capacity is not everything. When I have the money to start collecting
>> > more, I'll probably get a couple more revolvers. I have 2. The other is
>> > only a .22 but it holds 9 rounds.
>>
>> I recommend the Taurus line.
>
> So do I. As seen below, my favorite carry gun is a Taurus. Dad and I are
> currently looking at the Taurus "Judge".
I meant their revolvers. Their autos are too big for my taste. And if I
wanted a Beretta clone, I'd just go ahead and get the Beretta. <g> Like I
said, I might carry one in the car, but it's too big for a carry gun IMHO. If
I was going to carry one that big, I'd carry my CZ 75 in .40 s&w.
www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=72
>> A vast assortment of calibers and materials.
>> A steel blue one is very inexpensive but as well made and accurate as a
>> Smith,
>> I think. Mine is at the other end of the spectrum, pricewise. It's titanium
>> and I've installed a set of Crimson Trace laser grips. <g>
>
> Fun. :-) Dad's Glock 19 has a built in laser site.
Fun for the cats in my house. Not fun for the bad guys.
>> > Thing is, if you have moon clips or speed loaders and are GOOD with
>> > them, a semi-auto will have nothing on a revolver for those that really
>> > know how to use one. I've seen some impressive youtube videos.
>>
>> Yeah, I've seen some miracles. One guy shot six shots into a playing
>> card, reloaded and shot six more in less than three seconds. Showy but not
>> all that practical.
>>
>> "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earpm
>
> And a slow hit is better than a fast miss!
>
>> >> > The mags hold 17 rounds.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds like a Glock. Never liked the triggers.
>> >
>> > Glock triggers can be fixed.
>>
>> I've only tried one that had been 'fixed' to my satisfaction. But it
still
>> didn't compare to a Kahr out of the box.
>>
>> > I had my dad's Glock 19 worked on by a
>> > glocksmith at the gun show. WORLD of difference now! Brought my 25 yard
>> > group with it down from 12" to 5". My Ruger Redhawk .357 does better
>> > than that at that range, but that gun is WAY to big to carry. It's like
>> > "are you packing or are you happy to see me"? <g>
>> >
>> > http://i30.tinypic.com/1zcd9js.jpg
>>
>> Uh, yeah. I think you made the right choice not carrying that one.
>
> <snicker>
>
> It's a house gun but my main home defense weapon is a Mossberg 500 20
> gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
House GUN? Singular? <g> I keep the CZ downstairs in a lockbox. By the bed
is the big brother of my Taurus carry gun. It's also a titanium snubnose, but
in .45 Long Colt. Two speedloaders (the one made for the Charter 44 Bulldog
works).
>> > But no, my carry weapon is not a Glock. It's the Taurus PT-92. A Beretta
>> > clone. I carry that instead of my S&W 4043 .40 because it has, to date,
>> > never jammed on anything I've fed it with the single exception of round
>> > #7 of 10 rounds of Snake shot I tested in it. Those are best fired from
>> > revolvers but they do come in 9mm. It just mis-fed so was easy to clear.
>> >
>> > http://i29.tinypic.com/2yw7tcw.jpg
>>
>> Too big for my situation. If I decide to go bigger than my lightweight
>> revolver, I have a S&W Tactical 4013 in the safe. It's got three extra
>> magazines and a shoulder holster. Alas, I don't think CTC makes a laser for
>> it yet.
>
> I'm comfortable with a full sized pistol due to the way I carry. My
> holster is shown in my previous post.
I must've missed it. I rigged up a holster to be as minimalist as possible
for a shoulder holster. The whole shebang is very comfortable and weighs
almost nothing.
> The Keltec P3-AT fits in a pocket for backup.
I have one of those, too! It can actually hide in a shirt pocket! I'm
impressed with its accuracy.
> Since I am female...
That's a relief. I saw the Hello Kitty patch. <g>
> ...a fannypack holster is acceptable, and comfortable
> with that 2" belt. With 2 full mags tho', it does strain my back a bit
> after a few hours. Gives me sympathy for cops. That's 34 rounds.
Thirty-five, I hope. You're not walking around with an empty chamber, are
you?
>> > It is also the weapon I'm the most accurate with at the range. I really
do
>> > love that gun. :-)
>>
>> You might want to look around a few gun shows for the real thing. Real
>> Berettas have suddenly gone into the bargain bin. I bought a 92 for $400
the
>> other day, and it had Crimson Trace laser grips on it!! It only had a
little
>> wear, so I put the original grips back on it and saved the laser ones, then
>> sold it again for a measly $420! I put the grips on a 96 (.40 S&W) and
can't
>> seem to sell it. I may start carrying it in the car in a lock box. Just in
>> case I come across a cop battling gangbangers. <g>
>
> <lol> Be careful what you wish for...
No adrenalin junky I.
> And thanks for the hints about Berettas. I'll look around but I do like
> Taurus!
They're okay. Beretta is better. CZ tops both. <g>
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> > So do I. As seen below, my favorite carry gun is a Taurus. Dad and I are
> > currently looking at the Taurus "Judge".
>
> I meant their revolvers. Their autos are too big for my taste. And if I
> wanted a Beretta clone, I'd just go ahead and get the Beretta. <g> Like I
> said, I might carry one in the car, but it's too big for a carry gun IMHO. If
> I was going to carry one that big, I'd carry my CZ 75 in .40 s&w.
> www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=72
Oh... Drool!
That is a pretty gun.
>
> >> A vast assortment of calibers and materials.
> >> A steel blue one is very inexpensive but as well made and accurate as a
> >> Smith,
> >> I think. Mine is at the other end of the spectrum, pricewise. It's
> >> titanium
> >> and I've installed a set of Crimson Trace laser grips. <g>
> >
> > Fun. :-) Dad's Glock 19 has a built in laser site.
>
> Fun for the cats in my house. Not fun for the bad guys.
True! But I have a cat toy laser pointer. I don't use dad's Glock. ;-)
> > It's a house gun but my main home defense weapon is a Mossberg 500 20
> > gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
>
> House GUN? Singular? <g>
Note I said "A house gun", not "The house gun". ;-)
I own 6 pistols. 4 of them are capable calibers for self-defense.
I s'pose I could keep the AR loaded... but that's overkill imho.
There are such things as female gun nuts.
> I keep the CZ downstairs in a lockbox. By the bed
> is the big brother of my Taurus carry gun. It's also a titanium snubnose, but
> in .45 Long Colt. Two speedloaders (the one made for the Charter 44 Bulldog
> works).
I keep the .357 at the head of the bed. The shotgun is next to it.
The .40 and the 9mm are within easy reach.
> > I'm comfortable with a full sized pistol due to the way I carry. My
> > holster is shown in my previous post.
>
> I must've missed it.
Not if you saw the "hello kitty" patch! ;-D
Did you view all 4 jpegs? I can repost them.
> I rigged up a holster to be as minimalist as
> possible
> for a shoulder holster. The whole shebang is very comfortable and weighs
> almost nothing.
Since I sometimes carry a purse anyway, the fannypack is a convenient
substitute. And more secure.
>
> > The Keltec P3-AT fits in a pocket for backup.
>
> I have one of those, too! It can actually hide in a shirt pocket! I'm
> impressed with its accuracy.
Only up to 7 yards tho' but that's far enough.
>
> > Since I am female...
>
> That's a relief. I saw the Hello Kitty patch. <g>
So you DID see the holster! <g>
>
> > ...a fannypack holster is acceptable, and comfortable
> > with that 2" belt. With 2 full mags tho', it does strain my back a bit
> > after a few hours. Gives me sympathy for cops. That's 34 rounds.
>
> Thirty-five, I hope. You're not walking around with an empty chamber, are
> you?
Hell no! I just don't usually bother to top off the mag. I carry that
gun with a round in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. It makes it so
the first pull of the trigger is DA followed by SA, but I'm accustomed
to DA triggers so I'm ok with it. Glocks and my S&W 4043 are DAO.
>. I may start carrying it in the car in a lock box. Just in
> >> case I come across a cop battling gangbangers. <g>
> >
> > <lol> Be careful what you wish for...
>
> No adrenalin junky I.
Aw why not? ;-)
>
> > And thanks for the hints about Berettas. I'll look around but I do like
> > Taurus!
>
> They're okay. Beretta is better. CZ tops both. <g>
Ever tried a Springfield? They are pretty sweet. I'm considering one.
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# I'm far from convinced that an extra magazine is the difference between
# 80 & 99.9%
Fortunately for the rest of us, your opinion about whether or not we
should carry an extra magazine is totally irrelevant to us.
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>
>> > So do I. As seen below, my favorite carry gun is a Taurus. Dad and I are
>> > currently looking at the Taurus "Judge".
Forgot to mention, I don't see a lot of use in a .410 handgun. Never been
attacked by a quail. <g> I have the practical version - only shoots .45 Long
Colt. But the cylinder is shorter and the gun is lighter.
>> I meant their revolvers. Their autos are too big for my taste. And if I
>> wanted a Beretta clone, I'd just go ahead and get the Beretta. <g> Like I
>> said, I might carry one in the car, but it's too big for a carry gun IMHO.
If
>> I was going to carry one that big, I'd carry my CZ 75 in .40 s&w.
>> www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=72
>
> Oh... Drool!
> That is a pretty gun.
Ain't it? I didn't even know that CZ made it in stainless till I looked it
up. I thought it was satin nickel but the color was too silver. What's
better, a friend saw me buy it and said a friend gave him a converter to sell
and did I want to buy it for $175. So now I can switch from .40 to .22 in a
minute or so!
>> >> A vast assortment of calibers and materials.
>> >> A steel blue one is very inexpensive but as well made and accurate as a
>> >> Smith,
>> >> I think. Mine is at the other end of the spectrum, pricewise. It's
>> >> titanium and I've installed a set of Crimson Trace laser grips. <g>
>> >
>> > Fun. :-) Dad's Glock 19 has a built in laser site.
>>
>> Fun for the cats in my house. Not fun for the bad guys.
>
> True! But I have a cat toy laser pointer. I don't use dad's Glock. ;-)
Yes, I had to quit after what we call "The Incident." <g>
>> > It's a house gun but my main home defense weapon is a Mossberg 500 20
>> > gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
>>
>> House GUN? Singular? <g>
>
> Note I said "A house gun", not "The house gun". ;-)
> I own 6 pistols. 4 of them are capable calibers for self-defense.
>
> I s'pose I could keep the AR loaded... but that's overkill imho.
Yes, the neighbors might complain as bullets whiz through their houses,
too.
> There are such things as female gun nuts.
Know a few.
>> I keep the CZ downstairs in a lockbox. By the bed
>> is the big brother of my Taurus carry gun. It's also a titanium snubnose,
but
>> in .45 Long Colt. Two speedloaders (the one made for the Charter 44 Bulldog
>> works).
>
> I keep the .357 at the head of the bed. The shotgun is next to it.
> The .40 and the 9mm are within easy reach.
Talk about overkill. Tho I do have a Winchester Defender hanging on the
wall by the bed.
>> > I'm comfortable with a full sized pistol due to the way I carry. My
>> > holster is shown in my previous post.
>>
>> I must've missed it.
>
> Not if you saw the "hello kitty" patch! ;-D
> Did you view all 4 jpegs? I can repost them.
No, that's okay.
>> I rigged up a holster to be as minimalist as possible
>> for a shoulder holster. The whole shebang is very comfortable and weighs
>> almost nothing.
>
> Since I sometimes carry a purse anyway, the fannypack is a convenient
> substitute. And more secure.
Quicker, at any rate.
>> > The Keltec P3-AT fits in a pocket for backup.
>>
>> I have one of those, too! It can actually hide in a shirt pocket! I'm
>> impressed with its accuracy.
>
> Only up to 7 yards tho' but that's far enough.
Sounds about right. I keep it in the car for when I find myself without my
carry gun and going into a store at night. It's got the little clip on the
side like a pocket knife so I don't need a holster.
>> > Since I am female...
>>
>> That's a relief. I saw the Hello Kitty patch. <g>
>
> So you DID see the holster! <g>
Not that I remember.
>> > ...a fannypack holster is acceptable, and comfortable
>> > with that 2" belt. With 2 full mags tho', it does strain my back a bit
>> > after a few hours. Gives me sympathy for cops. That's 34 rounds.
>>
>> Thirty-five, I hope. You're not walking around with an empty chamber,
are
>> you?
>
> Hell no! I just don't usually bother to top off the mag.
Don't want the extra weight? <g> I usually add the extra round. I figure
better one less regret.
> I carry that
> gun with a round in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. It makes it so
> the first pull of the trigger is DA followed by SA, but I'm accustomed
> to DA triggers so I'm ok with it. Glocks and my S&W 4043 are DAO.
Yes, I know. I have the 4013 "Tactical". I've gotten used to some DAOs but
prefer standard DA.
>>. I may start carrying it in the car in a lock box. Just in
>> >> case I come across a cop battling gangbangers. <g>
>> >
>> > <lol> Be careful what you wish for...
>>
>> No adrenalin junky I.
>
> Aw why not? ;-)
Too old.
>> > And thanks for the hints about Berettas. I'll look around but I do like
>> > Taurus!
>>
>> They're okay. Beretta is better. CZ tops both. <g>
>
> Ever tried a Springfield? They are pretty sweet. I'm considering one.
I had a V10 compact for a while. But I also had a ParaOrdnance P12.
Figured the V10 was redundant. Nice guns, tho. I just don't like carrying a SA
cocked and locked. If I ever get my hands on another Kimber Ultracarry (I
think it was called) I may relent, though.
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Herb Martin" <ne...@learnquick.com> wrote:
>> >> "Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote...
>> >>
>> >> >> > Oh there is no doubt that a semi USUALLY beats revolvers for
capacity
>> >> >> > and speed, but if one prefers revolvers, my point was just that
there
>> >> >> > is nothing wrong with that. :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My main distaste for revolvers (after capacity) is the
>> >> >> usual shape and especially thickness. They just don't wear all that
>> >> >> well.
>> >> >
>> >> > You mean for comfort/concealment?
>> >> >
>> >> > A good fannypack holster like mine takes care of that issue:
>> >>
>> >> I prefer true concealment.
>> >
>> > <snicker>
>> >
>> > I wear it in public all the time. To date, the ONLY person that's
>> > recognized it as a holster was the bank security guard! Nobody else has
a
>> > clue. It's very much "real" concealment.
>>
>> A friend of mine used to wear one in his comic book store in Houston. A
>> couple cops came in one time to shop and on the way out, or in
conversation,
>> one said "So, what kind of gun are you carrying?"
>>
>> What did the bank guard say?
>
> He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
Maybe there's another reason? <G>
Peter Franks
As I've pointed out, but apparently is too difficult to understand, I
don't care what you carry in terms of weapon and extra magazines.
My original question was to the point, and unfortunately, hasn't been
answered.
Therefore, I conclude that carrying an extra magazine (or more) in a
typical urban setting is purely and only a preferential choice.
Have a nice day!
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
Aren't most choices in life? :-)
That's reality...
Peter Franks
> In article <%LKRj.58817$QC....@newsfe20.lga>,
> Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>> Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley wrote:
>>> On Apr 24, 5:05 pm, Peter Franks <peter.fra...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> # I'm far from convinced that an extra magazine is the difference between
>>> # 80 & 99.9%
>>>
>>> Fortunately for the rest of us, your opinion about whether or not we
>>> should carry an extra magazine is totally irrelevant to us.
>> As I've pointed out, but apparently is too difficult to understand, I
>> don't care what you carry in terms of weapon and extra magazines.
>>
>> My original question was to the point, and unfortunately, hasn't been
>> answered.
>>
>> Therefore, I conclude that carrying an extra magazine (or more) in a
>> typical urban setting is purely and only a preferential choice.
>>
>> Have a nice day!
>
> Aren't most choices in life? :-)
> That's reality...
I tend to make choices based on logic and reasoning.
RD (The Sandman)
$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
You must be skinny. Mine hides quite well. ;)
--
RD (The Sandman)
War is absolute hell.....but to give in
to terrorism is much, much worse
Scout
"Peter Franks" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:ugNRj.5060$1M1....@newsfe23.lga...
<Spock voice = On>
If I were to employ logic, logic would tell me that it is better to have and
not need, than to need and not have.
<Spock voice = Off>
.
Bob Holtzman
# Bob Holtzman wrote:
# #
# # You keep speaking in terms of the probability of needing to reload.
# # Every high school algebra student, after learning elementary probability
# # (permutations etc.) starts to view the world in terms of probability.
# # What many of them fail to grasp is that there are some bets you cannot
# # afford to lose, no matter how slim the odds. Death and rape are two
# # unacceptable outcomes that come to mind. This is the best objective
# # reason there is.
#
# That's right. And is an extra magazine the best option to reduce the
# odds of death?
#
# I'm not convinced it is.
It doesn't have to be *the* best. In fact there is no best option.
Extra ammo is just one option among several that *may* skew the odds
slightly in your favor. That, pal, is reason enough.
--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
Peter Franks
I'll counter that it may bring a false sense of security, ESPECIALLY if
you are carrying it as a backup in case of a jam.
Felix D.
> Bob Holtzman wrote:
>> It doesn't have to be *the* best. In fact there is no best option.
>> Extra ammo is just one option among several that *may* skew the odds
>> slightly in your favor. That, pal, is reason enough.
>
> I'll counter that it may bring a false sense of security, ESPECIALLY if
> you are carrying it as a backup in case of a jam.
You don't know guns or go shooting a whole lot, do you?
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > So do I. As seen below, my favorite carry gun is a Taurus. Dad and I are
> >> > currently looking at the Taurus "Judge".
>
> Forgot to mention, I don't see a lot of use in a .410 handgun. Never been
> attacked by a quail. <g> I have the practical version - only shoots .45 Long
> Colt. But the cylinder is shorter and the gun is lighter.
The .410 handguns are being promoted as a good vehicle weapon for
carjackers. Good carry for muggers too. They are not very big and a
close blast from one would be devastating and has less risk for
collateral damage.
Besides. They look cool. ;-)
> If
> >> I was going to carry one that big, I'd carry my CZ 75 in .40 s&w.
> >> www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=72
> >
> > Oh... Drool!
> > That is a pretty gun.
>
> Ain't it? I didn't even know that CZ made it in stainless till I looked it
> up. I thought it was satin nickel but the color was too silver. What's
> better, a friend saw me buy it and said a friend gave him a converter to sell
> and did I want to buy it for $175. So now I can switch from .40 to .22 in a
> minute or so!
Ok. I just own a couple of .22's for target practice to cut back on
ammo expense. They are good for trigger control.
My last .22 purchase was a 9 shot cowboy revolver:
http://i16.tinypic.com/523cs2q.jpg
Some idiot filed down the front site tho' so I need to get that replaced.
I got it cheap at the gun show for around $180.00.
> >> > Fun. :-) Dad's Glock 19 has a built in laser site.
> >>
> >> Fun for the cats in my house. Not fun for the bad guys.
> >
> > True! But I have a cat toy laser pointer. I don't use dad's Glock. ;-)
>
> Yes, I had to quit after what we call "The Incident." <g>
PLEASE don't tell me you shot the cat!
>
> >> > It's a house gun but my main home defense weapon is a Mossberg 500 20
> >> > gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
> >>
> >> House GUN? Singular? <g>
> >
> > Note I said "A house gun", not "The house gun". ;-)
> > I own 6 pistols. 4 of them are capable calibers for self-defense.
> >
> > I s'pose I could keep the AR loaded... but that's overkill imho.
>
> Yes, the neighbors might complain as bullets whiz through their houses,
> too.
Too true. ;-) A .223 is not a good idea for an indoor home defense gun.
<snicker> They are intimidating, but the Bushmaster Varminter is WAY too
big for that anyway.
> > I keep the .357 at the head of the bed. The shotgun is next to it.
> > The .40 and the 9mm are within easy reach.
>
> Talk about overkill. Tho I do have a Winchester Defender hanging on the
> wall by the bed.
It's not what you think. The only dedicated house guns in my bedroom are
the shotgun and the .357. The others are only in reach because the range
bag and ammo cases are in my room next to the bed. The Keltec .380 sits
next to my alarm clock with the car keys and cellphone as those are
things I routinely take with me when I drive.
> > Since I sometimes carry a purse anyway, the fannypack is a convenient
> > substitute. And more secure.
>
> Quicker, at any rate.
BIG time. I can draw and fire in 1 second or less.
>
> >> > The Keltec P3-AT fits in a pocket for backup.
> >>
> >> I have one of those, too! It can actually hide in a shirt pocket! I'm
> >> impressed with its accuracy.
> >
> > Only up to 7 yards tho' but that's far enough.
>
> Sounds about right. I keep it in the car for when I find myself without
> my
> carry gun and going into a store at night. It's got the little clip on the
> side like a pocket knife so I don't need a holster.
You got the belt clip attachment for it? Does that work well?
I've seen that in the catalogue and had considered adding it.
> >> Thirty-five, I hope. You're not walking around with an empty chamber,
> are
> >> you?
> >
> > Hell no! I just don't usually bother to top off the mag.
>
> Don't want the extra weight? <g> I usually add the extra round. I figure
> better one less regret.
Meh. Just never worried about it. I figure if I can't solve my problem
with 34 rounds, I'm in way over my head. Same if I actually need that
many. <g> I could just load the third mag and keep it in there too...
>
> > I carry that
> > gun with a round in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. It makes it so
> > the first pull of the trigger is DA followed by SA, but I'm accustomed
> > to DA triggers so I'm ok with it. Glocks and my S&W 4043 are DAO.
>
> Yes, I know. I have the 4013 "Tactical". I've gotten used to some DAOs
> but
> prefer standard DA.
You mean DA-SA?
> >> No adrenalin junky I.
> >
> > Aw why not? ;-)
>
> Too old.
You are never too old!
> > Ever tried a Springfield? They are pretty sweet. I'm considering one.
>
> I had a V10 compact for a while. But I also had a ParaOrdnance P12.
> Figured the V10 was redundant. Nice guns, tho. I just don't like carrying a
> SA
> cocked and locked. If I ever get my hands on another Kimber Ultracarry (I
> think it was called) I may relent, though.
I almost had that free Springfield .45 a couple of years ago, remember?
<g> I posted about that one that some goofball had left at the range.
Fortunately, I'm no thief. ;-)
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >> What did the bank guard say?
> >
> > He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
>
> Maybe there's another reason? <G>
I wish. ;-) I'm your typical 46 year old overweight middle aged
female...
Unless he has a thing for fat chicks with guns. <g
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
Aye Mr. Spock!
No spontaneity?
I feel sorry for you...
I'll bet you only own one pistol too.
What do you need with more than one?
I'm sure it's a .45 1911...
Omelet
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
I don't carry an extra mag "just in case of a jam".
I carry an extra mag just in case I end up needing more bullets to fix
the "problem".
Bama Brian
'Deed they do. Could be the ultimate wilderness gun. One round of
birdshot for snakes, followed by four rounds of rifled slugs.
Of course, one must still be able to raise it and aim it - something I
probably couldn't do if I were up a tree.
--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>
>> >> What did the bank guard say?
>> >
>> > He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
>>
>> Maybe there's another reason? <G>
>
> I wish. ;-) I'm your typical 46 year old overweight middle aged
> female...
>
> Unless he has a thing for fat chicks with guns. <g
Don't we all?
Peter Franks
> In article <ugNRj.5060$1M1....@newsfe23.lga>,
> Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>>> In article <%LKRj.58817$QC....@newsfe20.lga>,
>>> Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 24, 5:05 pm, Peter Franks <peter.fra...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>> # I'm far from convinced that an extra magazine is the difference between
>>>>> # 80 & 99.9%
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately for the rest of us, your opinion about whether or not we
>>>>> should carry an extra magazine is totally irrelevant to us.
>>>> As I've pointed out, but apparently is too difficult to understand, I
>>>> don't care what you carry in terms of weapon and extra magazines.
>>>>
>>>> My original question was to the point, and unfortunately, hasn't been
>>>> answered.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, I conclude that carrying an extra magazine (or more) in a
>>>> typical urban setting is purely and only a preferential choice.
>>>>
>>>> Have a nice day!
>>> Aren't most choices in life? :-)
>>> That's reality...
>> I tend to make choices based on logic and reasoning.
>
> Aye Mr. Spock!
>
> No spontaneity?
If dealing w/ carrying, I'd make my decisions on logic and reasoning.
Peter Franks
I don't recall seeing you refute any of the responses in rec.guns that
advocated extra mags for jam situations. Why bring it up now?
> I carry an extra mag just in case I end up needing more bullets to fix
> the "problem".
And that is a great personal choice.
But, my question was intended to evoke responses as to what kind of
situations may potentially arise where you would /need/ more bullets...
Omelet
Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >> What did the bank guard say?
> >> >
> >> > He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
> >>
> >> Maybe there's another reason? <G>
> >
> > I wish. ;-) I'm your typical 46 year old overweight middle aged
> > female...
> >
> > Unless he has a thing for fat chicks with guns. <g>
>
> Don't we all?
<bats eyelashes>
;-)
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
So you won't be carrying an extra magazine...
I guess I do it for the same reason that I have, not one, but TWO fire
extinguishers and two bottles of DI water behind the seat of my truck,
as well as extra bottles of motor oil and power steering fluid.
I like to be a girl scout and always be prepared...
To me, an extra magazine is a safety precaution.
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
I don't refute it, it's just not MY reason.
>
> > I carry an extra mag just in case I end up needing more bullets to fix
> > the "problem".
>
> And that is a great personal choice.
>
> But, my question was intended to evoke responses as to what kind of
> situations may potentially arise where you would /need/ more bullets...
And people listed plenty.
So, do you carry an extra magazine?
Peter Franks
> In article <VtsSj.111772$Ft5....@newsfe15.lga>,
> Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Therefore, I conclude that carrying an extra magazine (or more) in a
>>>>>> typical urban setting is purely and only a preferential choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a nice day!
>>>>> Aren't most choices in life? :-)
>>>>> That's reality...
>>>> I tend to make choices based on logic and reasoning.
>>> Aye Mr. Spock!
>>>
>>> No spontaneity?
>> If dealing w/ carrying, I'd make my decisions on logic and reasoning.
>
> So you won't be carrying an extra magazine...
>
> I guess I do it for the same reason that I have, not one, but TWO fire
> extinguishers and two bottles of DI water behind the seat of my truck,
> as well as extra bottles of motor oil and power steering fluid.
In my vehicle, I have one extinguisher and two water bottles. No oil,
no PS fluid. I change oil and get a check at the factory every 3k miles
since I bought new 7 years ago. Never needed oil.
In the case of a vehicle fire, my view is that if one extinguisher can't
put it out, another one probably won't make a difference.
Peter Franks
They listed some, to be sure. Most were some pretty far-out situations;
alien-abduction probably has a higher rate of occurring than some of the
hypotheticals posted.
> So, do you carry an extra magazine?
I have no reason to carry an extra magazine.
the big dog
> Omelet wrote:
>
> # In article <fuoh09$33...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
> # Peter Franks <peter.fra...@cox.net> wrote:
> ## # Omelet wrote:
>
> # # # In article <fund0l$jo...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,> # # # Oh really? How? You are only going to fire to stop a threat.
> # # # Same as they are.
> # #
> # # Self-defense and law enforcement are two different aspects entirely that
> # # share overlap with tools used. I wanted to limit this discussion to
> # # non-LEO situations because I'm not LEO and have no intention of acting
> # # like I am.
> #
> # Most of the rest of us are not either, but you are allowed in some
> # states to help another person if you see a crime being committed against
> # them. A perfect example was one account I read of a couple of years ago
> # where a woman was being assaulted in front of a store.
> #
> # Her ex' was stabbing her and several people kept yelling at him to stop.
> # (Yah right!). Finally he doused her in gasoline and was about to strike
> # a match.
> #
> # A man in the crowd drew his firearm and told the man (iirc) "Stop or
> # I'll shoot you, run and I'll kill you".
> #
> # That stopped him. ;-) The man held the slimeball at gunpoint until the
> # police got there, then quietly faded into the crowd.
> #
> # The account I read said that the police never did find out who it was...
> # and they did not go thru any great effort to find out. ;-)
> #
> # #
> # # # # # If you ever have to actually _use_ your firearm, what is wrong with
> # # # # # having backup ammo for emergencies?
> # # # #
> # # # # There is nothing wrong with having an extra magazine, or two, or ten, in
> # # # # my opinion. I'm curious as to what are some legitimate reasons to have
> # # # # an extra. 'Just because', 'because I can', 'because I want to', and
> # # # # 'why not' are just fine for personal reasons, but from an independent
> # # # # application perspective, they don't hold much weight.
> # # # #
> # # # # # You never know what you will have
> # # # # # to deal with if TSHTF.
> # # # #
> # # # # That is the case. So, I try to plan for 80% of potential scenarios.
> # # # # From what I see, have heard, and been trained on, the preparation for
> # # # # the remaining 20% of situations increases exponentially.
> # # #
> # # # Give me a good reason to NOT carry extra magazines please?
> # # # You appear to be evading that issue.
> # #
> # # Asked and answered elsewhere. I don't have any good reason to NOT carry
> # # extra magazines.
> #
> # Thank you. Then why are you making such a big fuss about it?
> # Carrying extra mags is a personal preference. Why do I need a set
> # "reason" to do it?
>
> I'm not making a fuss about it. I'm asking a question. If the answer
> to the question is 'personal preference', then fine.
>
> # My answer is "just in case I need it". Period. It really is that
> # simple...
>
> Yeah, ok.
>
> But need it for /what/? That's the source of my question.
The unexpected. The situation that you can't predict ahead of time.
If it can't hurt and might help...
r_c_...@hushmail.com
> In article <Xns9A918A68E93F1jimaldersssnet...@216.196.97.142>,
> Jim Alder <jimal...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Omelet <ompome...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Jim Alder <jimal...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>
> > >> >> What did the bank guard say?
>
> > >> > He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
>
> > >> Maybe there's another reason? <G>
>
> > > I wish. ;-) I'm your typical 46 year old overweight middle aged
> > > female...
>
> > > Unless he has a thing for fat chicks with guns. <g>
>
> > Don't we all?
Hey! What the - ! Jim, the line starts over *there*.
Sheesh.
>
> <bats eyelashes>
>
> ;-)
> --
> --
>
> Peace! Om
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a Bitch."
> -- Jack Nicholson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter Franks
Right. Unless you are prepared, you will fall victim to the unexpected.
So, in the case of an extra magazine, how does it help prepare for the
unexpected?
Scout
The same way that carrying a gun does.
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
> Omelet wrote:
> > In article <VtsSj.111772$Ft5....@newsfe15.lga>,
> > Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> Therefore, I conclude that carrying an extra magazine (or more) in a
> >>>>>> typical urban setting is purely and only a preferential choice.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Have a nice day!
> >>>>> Aren't most choices in life? :-)
> >>>>> That's reality...
> >>>> I tend to make choices based on logic and reasoning.
> >>> Aye Mr. Spock!
> >>>
> >>> No spontaneity?
> >> If dealing w/ carrying, I'd make my decisions on logic and reasoning.
> >
> > So you won't be carrying an extra magazine...
> >
> > I guess I do it for the same reason that I have, not one, but TWO fire
> > extinguishers and two bottles of DI water behind the seat of my truck,
> > as well as extra bottles of motor oil and power steering fluid.
>
> In my vehicle, I have one extinguisher and two water bottles. No oil,
> no PS fluid. I change oil and get a check at the factory every 3k miles
> since I bought new 7 years ago. Never needed oil.
I get my maintenance done on schedule too, but my truck is getting
rather old. 130K on it so there is always a slight chance it may need it
from leakage.
>
> In the case of a vehicle fire, my view is that if one extinguisher can't
> put it out, another one probably won't make a difference.
Believe it or not, I carry a spare to help other people.
I've given one away twice so far. ;-)
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
> > So, do you carry an extra magazine?
>
> I have no reason to carry an extra magazine.
I hope you (or I) never do need it. ;-)
Omelet
<1a0a38d7-7a5b-4697...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
"r_c_...@hushmail.com" <r_c_...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> On May 1, 6:47 pm, Omelet <ompome...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <Xns9A918A68E93F1jimaldersssnet...@216.196.97.142>,
> > Jim Alder <jimal...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Omelet <ompome...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Jim Alder <jimal...@ssnet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >> >> What did the bank guard say?
> >
> > > >> > He does not say anything. He just watches me like a hawk... :-)
> >
> > > >> Maybe there's another reason? <G>
> >
> > > > I wish. ;-) I'm your typical 46 year old overweight middle aged
> > > > female...
> >
> > > > Unless he has a thing for fat chicks with guns. <g>
> >
> > > Don't we all?
>
> Hey! What the - ! Jim, the line starts over *there*.
>
> Sheesh.
<snicker>
Omelet
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
> >>> But need it for /what/? That's the source of my question.
> >>
> >> The unexpected. The situation that you can't predict ahead of time.
> >> If it can't hurt and might help...
> >
> > Right. Unless you are prepared, you will fall victim to the unexpected.
> >
> > So, in the case of an extra magazine, how does it help prepare for the
> > unexpected?
>
> The same way that carrying a gun does.
Good answer!
Peter Franks
Scout
By giving you more ammo, the option for a combat reload, and the ability to
enact an extended clearing function if you suffer an extended stoppage.
Of course, I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how NOT having
something makes you better prepared.
Peter Franks
Having an extra magazine may give a false sense of security.
Can you give a specific situation where an extra magazine would make a
difference?
Scout
So may having a gun.
> Can you give a specific situation where an extra magazine would make a
> difference?
Already have.
Peter Franks
Where/what?
Scout
In the messages you apparently chose to ignore.
Bama Brian
Why shoor! Let's say you have a Glock 23mm with 17 bullets in the clip
an 19 enemas! Why yoo'd be scrood!
Peter Franks
What percentage of incidents would include a large number of assailants
against one? Presumably a VERY small percentage.
Considering that an incident as already a rare occurrence, the above has
virtually no chance of happening. What would you guess, 1 in 1,000,000?
Is an extra magazine justified against such odds?
Peter Franks
I've read all responses to this thread, none have been ignored. I
simply don't recall what you said regarding a specific situation.
Can you repost or provide a reference?
Scout
It would make a difference in any sort of extended shootout, it gives you
the option of a combat reload if there are more bad guys that you suspect
and may need those additional rounds, it allows you to engage in an extended
clearing drill if you suffer from a stoppage. It can also be used as a
distraction (throwing to create noise someplace else). It can be used to
enhance your punch if things get physical. It can help balance the weight of
the gun in order to make it more comfortable to carry.
What I don't see from you is any sound reason not to have one other than
your personal opinion that you feel it may not be necessary often enough to
matter. Other people have different opinions.
Peter Franks
How often is a citizen involved in a shootout with more bad guys than
they suspect (expect)?
>, it allows you to engage in an extended
> clearing drill if you suffer from a stoppage.
And during your extended clearing drill, your attention is distracted
from the threat and you become even more of a target of violence than
before.
> It can also be used as a
> distraction (throwing to create noise someplace else).
Why is a distraction necessary? I was asking about legitimate
situations, not hide-and-seek shoot-em-ups or laser tag.
> It can be used to
> enhance your punch if things get physical.
Ok.
> It can help balance the weight of
> the gun in order to make it more comfortable to carry.
Depends on your rig, I suppose.
> What I don't see from you is any sound reason not to have one other than
> your personal opinion that you feel it may not be necessary often enough to
> matter. Other people have different opinions.
I've stated over and over, I don't care what a person carries. I do
have an issue w/ what I perceive as the presumption that someone that
doesn't carry a second magazine is somehow less prepared than someone
who does.
Scout
Enough to make it a consideration.
>>, it allows you to engage in an extended clearing drill if you suffer from
>>a stoppage.
>
> And during your extended clearing drill, your attention is distracted from
> the threat and you become even more of a target of violence than before.
Right, so instead I can calmly watch the criminal as he kills me. Somehow I
think I would rather be fixing the problem.
>> It can also be used as a distraction (throwing to create noise someplace
>> else).
>
> Why is a distraction necessary? I was asking about legitimate situations,
> not hide-and-seek shoot-em-ups or laser tag.
To provide an opening minimizing your risk. Not every encounter is a simple
stand up fight.
>> It can be used to enhance your punch if things get physical.
>
> Ok.
>
>> It can help balance the weight of the gun in order to make it more
>> comfortable to carry.
>
> Depends on your rig, I suppose.
Actually most rigs are more comfortable if the weight is balanced.
>> What I don't see from you is any sound reason not to have one other than
>> your personal opinion that you feel it may not be necessary often enough
>> to matter. Other people have different opinions.
>
> I've stated over and over, I don't care what a person carries. I do have
> an issue w/ what I perceive as the presumption that someone that doesn't
> carry a second magazine is somehow less prepared than someone who does.
You are. That you consider the difference to be minimal or even
insignificant doesn't alter the fact that you are more limited in your
ability to respond to a broader range of engagements. If you need the rounds
or the mag and you don't have them, then you were less prepared than someone
who had them. QED.
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
> >> So, in the case of an extra magazine, how does it help prepare for the
> >> unexpected?
> >
> > The same way that carrying a gun does.
>
> So, in the case of an extra magazine, how does it help prepare for the
> unexpected?
How does carrying a gun prepare for the unexpected?
Or do you carry one?
Omelet
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
Ditto.
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
So can carrying a gun in the first place.
You may not get a chance to use it.
The best strategy is awareness and avoidance. The best gunfight to be in
is the one you avoided.
>
> Can you give a specific situation where an extra magazine would make a
> difference?
Multiple attackers. Gang violence.
Poor marksmanship due to adrenaline rush.
Ever tried shooting with shaking hands?
Omelet
Bama Brian <eddy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Unless you are loaded with these:
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/35a796d8/3d2153aa
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
Why are you against carrying an extra magazine?
Why do you bother carrying a gun at all?
The same question applies... How does carrying a gun help prepare you
for the unexpected?
Frankly, I'm beginning to think you are just trolling. ;-)
Peter Franks
I'm not against carrying an extra magazine.
What I don't understand is /why/ carry an extra magazine. For the most
part, the reason to carry an extra magazine boils down to personal choice.
Are you less prepared with a 9mm over a .45? Nope. It comes down to
preparedness and proficiency; the caliber is personal choice.
> Why do you bother carrying a gun at all?
> The same question applies... How does carrying a gun help prepare you
> for the unexpected?
In rough figures, I'd suppose that being armed will either equalize or
tilt the odds in your favor 80% of the time in an 'encounter'. Adding a
second magazine may increase that by a percent or two. To me, that
isn't suitable justification to assume that a second magazine should be
considered standard equipment.
A challenge to conventional wisdom what the primary intent of my
question. I got a lot of crap for asking the question, and very little
in substantiative response.
Have a nice armed day.
Peter Franks
Nope. How well is someone w/ shaking hands going to be able to perform
a quick reload? My suggestion would be to spend some time in training
scenarios so that you have a cooler composure and can better handle the
situation. I don't see a second magazine as an alternative to poor
training or lack of preparedness.
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
I'll take that extra 2%, thanks. ;-)
>
> A challenge to conventional wisdom what the primary intent of my
> question. I got a lot of crap for asking the question, and very little
> in substantiative response.
Not if the question makes sense to the majority, or if you accept the
general consensus, or make logical arguments against it.
>
> Have a nice armed day.
I shall, thanks! With not one, but TWO extra magazines. <g>
Your fault for making me reconsider...
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
Depends on how you train. Large, "gross" movements make the most sense.
For instance, instead of trying to hit the slide locking lever after a
reload, it's better to pull the slide back. It's less of a fine
movement.
> My suggestion would be to spend some time in training
> scenarios so that you have a cooler composure and can better handle the
> situation.
No argument there.
> I don't see a second magazine as an alternative to poor
> training or lack of preparedness.
I don't think anyone ever said it was. ;-)
Scout
As does the whole process of carrying a gun. However, most people who go to
that much bother and also of the mind to make sure that if it's needed they
are going to have adequate resources to deal with just about any possible
situation.
>
> Are you less prepared with a 9mm over a .45? Nope. It comes down to
> preparedness and proficiency; the caliber is personal choice.
Are you less prepared with 5 rounds instead of 12? Maybe, and if you need
more rounds it becomes a certainity.
>> Why do you bother carrying a gun at all?
>> The same question applies... How does carrying a gun help prepare you for
>> the unexpected?
>
> In rough figures, I'd suppose that being armed will either equalize or
> tilt the odds in your favor 80% of the time in an 'encounter'. Adding a
> second magazine may increase that by a percent or two.
I accept your admission that NOT having a magazine means you are less
prepared.
> To me, that isn't suitable justification to assume that a second magazine
> should be considered standard equipment.
A matter of opinion. But if I'm going to the bother of carrying the gun, it
hardly matters if I add a magazine since as you tell me it makes me better
prepared.
Omelet
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
> > To me, that isn't suitable justification to assume that a second magazine
> > should be considered standard equipment.
>
> A matter of opinion. But if I'm going to the bother of carrying the gun, it
> hardly matters if I add a magazine since as you tell me it makes me better
> prepared.
I have yet to see a single cop with a duty belt that carries less than 2
extra magazines.
They must have a reason for that.
Peter Franks
> In article <aSeUj.21991$aA1.11141@trnddc05>,
> "Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>> To me, that isn't suitable justification to assume that a second magazine
>>> should be considered standard equipment.
>> A matter of opinion. But if I'm going to the bother of carrying the gun, it
>> hardly matters if I add a magazine since as you tell me it makes me better
>> prepared.
>
> I have yet to see a single cop with a duty belt that carries less than 2
> extra magazines.
>
> They must have a reason for that.
Yes, the purposes of arming a LEO are different than a non-LEO citizen.
Peter Franks
> In article <1ZZTj.31668$KJ1....@newsfe19.lga>,
> Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>>> Why do you bother carrying a gun at all?
>>> The same question applies... How does carrying a gun help prepare you
>>> for the unexpected?
>> In rough figures, I'd suppose that being armed will either equalize or
>> tilt the odds in your favor 80% of the time in an 'encounter'. Adding a
>> second magazine may increase that by a percent or two. To me, that
>> isn't suitable justification to assume that a second magazine should be
>> considered standard equipment.
>
> I'll take that extra 2%, thanks. ;-)
>
>> A challenge to conventional wisdom what the primary intent of my
>> question. I got a lot of crap for asking the question, and very little
>> in substantiative response.
>
> Not if the question makes sense to the majority
Majority opinion is irrelevant.
>, or if you accept the
> general consensus
General consensus is irrelevant.
>, or make logical arguments against it.
Did that.
>> Have a nice armed day.
>
> I shall, thanks! With not one, but TWO extra magazines. <g>
> Your fault for making me reconsider...
Why not THREE?
Peter Franks
Really? The difference between 80 and 82% is "just about any possible
situation"?
Hardly.
>> Are you less prepared with a 9mm over a .45? Nope. It comes down to
>> preparedness and proficiency; the caliber is personal choice.
>
> Are you less prepared with 5 rounds instead of 12? Maybe, and if you need
> more rounds it becomes a certainity.
And in what situation do you need more rounds?
>>> Why do you bother carrying a gun at all?
>>> The same question applies... How does carrying a gun help prepare you for
>>> the unexpected?
>> In rough figures, I'd suppose that being armed will either equalize or
>> tilt the odds in your favor 80% of the time in an 'encounter'. Adding a
>> second magazine may increase that by a percent or two.
>
> I accept your admission that NOT having a magazine means you are less
> prepared.
Not at all, for reasons that I've previously detailed.
>> To me, that isn't suitable justification to assume that a second magazine
>> should be considered standard equipment.
>
> A matter of opinion. But if I'm going to the bother of carrying the gun, it
> hardly matters if I add a magazine since as you tell me it makes me better
> prepared.
The magazine in and of itself doesn't make you better prepared. I'll
clarify my previous statement: adding a second magazine /and being
adequately proficient in reload/ _may_ increase that by a percent or two.
Scout
> Omelet wrote:
>> In article <aSeUj.21991$aA1.11141@trnddc05>,
>> "Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> To me, that isn't suitable justification to assume that a second
>>>> magazine should be considered standard equipment.
>>> A matter of opinion. But if I'm going to the bother of carrying the gun,
>>> it hardly matters if I add a magazine since as you tell me it makes me
>>> better prepared.
>>
>> I have yet to see a single cop with a duty belt that carries less than 2
>> extra magazines.
>>
>> They must have a reason for that.
>
I would think that uniform would do that, but what do I know. Nor does that
explain the extra reloads
Scout
Why not Four, or Five, or Six.....a matter of personal preference and
comfort.
Scout
Fine and just as soon as you can show your data for 80 and 82% then we can
discuss the difference. Until then you are pulling numbers out of your ass.
The fact remains thought that even by YOUR estimates people are safer with a
extra mag than they are without it.
RD (The Sandman)
news:gqpUj.15448$sp.1058@trnddc02:
A LEO percentage wise would be more likely to be involved in a long
firefight. I make no claims as the reason. It could be a type of
criminal activity that we civilians usually don't get involved with or it
could simply be crappy marksmenship that makes the fight last longer with
more ammo being expended. Who really knows.........the Shadow???
--
RD (The Sandman)
War is absolute hell.....but to give in
to terrorism is much, much worse
Peter Franks
Yep. Exactly what I said elsewhere, extra magazines is a matter of
personal preference and opinion.
Peter Franks
Yep, by my estimates, by 2%.
For the record, NO ONE else ever substantiated any of their claims to
increased protection.
The conclusion is: extra magazines are an issue of personal preference,
nothing more.
Hey, have a nice day!
Scout
> personal preference and opinion.
Yep, it makes you better prepared. Of course the how much more prepared you
chose to be is a matter of personal preference. Glad to see we can finally
agree that extra magazines make you better prepared and whether you chose to
be so prepared is a matter of personal preference.
Scout
Sorry, seem to have missed the part where you show me your data for your
numbers.
>> The fact remains thought that even by YOUR estimates people are safer
>> with a extra mag than they are without it.
>
> Yep, by my estimates, by 2%.
Based on what? Your ass?
> For the record, NO ONE else ever substantiated any of their claims to
> increased protection.
Really? I seem to see you doing so, and with claims of specific percentages.
> The conclusion is: extra magazines are an issue of personal preference,
> nothing more.
And make you better prepared and hence safer according to your own
estimates.
Point. Set. Match.
>Hey, have a nice day!
Thanks, after showing you up it certain is a better day.
Peter Franks
Whatever. This wasn't a competition.
Omelet
Peter Franks <no...@none.com> wrote:
Oh really?
Most cops never have to draw a gun during their entire carreers.
The more firepower if they do, the merrier. ;-)
I actually saw a duty belt on this past teusday night that carried, not
2, but 4 extra mags! He carried a single stack .45.
I guess YMMV depending on the gun.
I'm currently fixin' to "graduate" next tuesday from our local CPA and
will be joining the Alumni Association for continuted involvement.
--
Peace! Om
"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein