Cdn-Firearms-Digest Back Issue No. 872
Skeeter Abell-Smith
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========================================================================
Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, June 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 872
In this issue:
Winnipeg Free Press, Monday June 4, 1997
World Police & Fire games
Quebec and Ontario
Election fallout
More on Plan B...
Let me outta here.....
Ontario, and Canada's loss.
Mike's banned books
RE: What the Hell Happened?????
Re: you have until the end of 2002 to register
Re: Elections
ANY government is a system for reapportioning wealth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:21:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Roger Mattice <mat...@magic.mb.ca>
Subject: Winnipeg Free Press, Monday June 4, 1997
Winnipeg Free Press, Monday, June 4, 1997
Front page "Gun Lobby has Grits in sights". page 2 "Effort leaves
bitter feelings" It seems some Liberals are not too happy with their
defeats.... :)
Reformer Howard Hilstrom stunned Liberal Jon Gerrard to take
Selkirk-Interlake. Gerrard's campaign manager, John Shead, stated
that: "People were totally obsessed with gun control" "It was more
important to have a gun thats unregistered than to run the economy and
have a stable government".
I felt that this last comment insulted the intelligence of the voters
in this riding and I sent in a Letter to the Editor of the Free Press
with my opinions.
Since the Free Press has never printed any of my letters regarding gun
control, I thought I would at least share it with my peers on the
Digest.
Never Forget, Never Forgive.
_____________________________________________________________
If John Shead, (Jon Gerrard's Campaign Manager) truly believes his
statement that that gun owners would "rather have an unregistered gun
than to run the economy and have a stable government" then it's just
as well they lost this riding. The citizens of this riding have more
brains than you credit them for. The ones that voted against you
probably examined the contents of C-68 and found very little of it is
about guns. It's true that registration is a major focal point, but
anyone who has looked into C-68 is also very concerned about the other
garbage about to be shoved down our throats.
1: Reverse Onus. Very few people have the financial resources to defend
themselves in todays court system, especially when the state can rally
vast resources against you.
2: Warrantless searchs. The potential for abuse is just too great to
ignore. If no guns are found, a little planted contraband could always
justify the need for the search.
3: You no longer have the right to remain silent, and not incriminate
yourself. You will now be required to rat on yourself and help them
build their case, or be subject to further draconian penalties.
4: And the worst of C-68 is the empowering legislation that allows the
Justice Minister to turn his whims into law, bypassing Parliament, via
Orders in Council. Crap like this has no place in a democracy. In
short, there is a lot more to C-68 than just registration. Handguns
have been registered in Canada since 1934, and they are still the
weapons of choice among criminals, who have no trouble obtaining one.
Squandering 1.8 billion dollars more registering rifles and shotguns
won't help.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:23:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Cliff Meek <me...@glinx.com>
Subject: World Police & Fire games
I see that the games are coming soon. I was wondering if anyone knew if
the foriegn participants are required to fix their mags to our 10 round
limit or if they got some sort of competitive exemption. If so, I want
one. :))
Cliff
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:24:54 -0600 (CST)
From: SBKracer <cron...@nucleus.com>
Subject: Quebec and Ontario
Do you think if Quebec goes we could persuade them to take Ontario with
them?
Peter Cronhelm Black and Green, Carbon Fibre Racing Machine
SBKracer
"I'm not the man you say I am not radical nor mentally deranged."
-Sons of Freedom-
"Without the threat of death, there's no point in living at all!"
-Marilyn Manson-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:28:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Davies <ji...@vcc.bc.ca>
Subject: Election fallout
> Subject: Note to OFAH
>
> Just a note to the management of the OFAH, now that we have
> another Liberal majority:
>
> "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those
> who, during times of great moral crisis, maintain
> their neutrality."
>
> -Dante
>
> Skeeter wrote:
> [I really cannot allow a flame-fest here, so I will defend OFAH to
> maintain some balance... Picking sides can have consequences,
> just as neutrality does. It is also hard to say for sure that OFAH
> "taking a stand" would have made that big a difference in Ontario.]
True, there were no guarentees of success let alone guarentees that the
bureacracy would not get even in some way. It is, after all, just the
well known, cautious Canadian way being practiced here. Just like
things were done by the British N.R.A. and look at their sucesses :-(
Creep quietly, cap in hand...
----------------------------
> Considering the relentless media bias against the "upstart Western"
> Reform party...(where "all provinces are treated equally" is
> interpreted by the media as "racism")
Just so we know that the media is truly unbiased...
From=: Canoe, Wednesday, June 4, 1997
QUIPS FLY ALONG WITH GIDDY PM
By ROBERT BENZIE
Parliamentary Bureau What, me worry?
Like carefree Alfred E. Neuman of Mad magazine fame, Prime Minister
Jean Chretien shrugged aside his political woes and joked with
reporters on a boisterous victory flight from Shawinigan to Ottawa
yesterday...
Later, when scribes began cheering for a Senate seat for popular Grit
tour organizer David MacInnis, Chretien strolled to the back of the
plane with a grin.
"I always told you that if you behaved, you could have influence," he
beamed.
No word yet on that patronage plum for hard-working MacInnis.
Ever wonder why the "triple E" Senate idea gets little media coverage?
Imagine, a lieberal tour organizer gets a senate seat because he is
popular with the media!
Jim Davies
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:32:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <nfa...@telusplanet.net>
Subject: More on Plan B...
First, DO NOT GET SIDETRACKED INTO ATTACKING EACH OTHER.
I was in southern Ontario during the early part of the election
campaign, and I know that the effort put forth by the Ontario firearms
community was strong and dedicated. Their lack of success was in no
way caused by lack of effort.
NFA analysis indicates that the Ontario and Atlantic refusal to
consider Reform candidates seriously was mainly caused by
traditionalists -- still hung up on the "two natural governing Parties"
concept. The West is both more flexible and has had longer to become
accustomed to Reform.
In Atlantic Canada, the firearms community caused a swing -- but to the
Conservatives. The traditionalists were even stronger in Atlantic
Canada. Unfortunately, the Conservatives they elected seem to be
mostly "Red Tories," likely to become allies of the Liberals in
Parliament.
In Ontario, the voters simply refused to swing to the Conservatives --
as indicated by the high number of ridings in which Reform came in
second.
The number of firearms community political activists in Ontario is
clearly quite high enough to make capture of nearly every Liberal Party
Riding Association by Classical Liberals a practical and realistic
opportunity.
The NFA has demonstrated, in past years, just how cheap, easy and
simple it is to recruit new members into a Riding Association -- enough
of them to achieve voting control. The demonstrations did not result
in political action along desired lines -- too many firearms community
members did not appreciate just how much political clout is available
down that road, and too many of them did not see political clout as a
necessity for our survival.
True, Parties have reacted by refusing to sell Party memberships on
previous occasions -- but that reaction is political suicide. A party
cannot reject applications for membership without deeply offending the
people applying, and some of the appliers will NOT be Classical
Liberals.
I hope that situation -- refusal of the firearms community to TAKE the
power available by buying a Party membership -- has changed. We now
have far larger numbers of experienced and practical political
activists -- and many more of us now understand that political activism
is NECESSARY for the SURVIVAL of every branch of the firearms
community.
It is necessary that we UNITE every branch of the firearms community in
political activism. That means that we cannot afford the luxury of
shooting each other in the foot -- or elsewhere.
If we do not hang together, they will hang us all separately.
On 02 Jun 97, we won notable victories. The Liberals now hold 101
seats in Ontario, and 54 in the rest of Canada. Reform holds 60 in the
rest of Canada. Think about that. The Liberals, clearly, have been
rejected by the rest of Canada. The Party is in deep need of renewal
and better ideas -- they NEED us!
We are now in a period where the enemy (the authoritarians that stole
our Classical Liberal Party) cannot be defeated by direct confrontation
of our respective major armies. That will have to wait until the NEXT
federal election. For now, we must work from WITHIN the Liberal Party
to reshape it nearer our heart's desire.
Why from INSIDE? Ask Adelaide. "You can't get alterations in a dress
you haven't bought!"
The NFA has led the firearms community in a little-noticed but
successful delaying action. Bill C-68 passed in Dec 95, and was
scheduled to be proclaimed in Jan 96. It is now Jun 97, and C-68 HAS
STILL NOT BEEN PROCLAIMED. It is not even SCHEDULED for proclamation
until 1998!
The tactics that resulted in that delay have been complex and
difficult.
We now add Plan B. Look at it from the viewpoint of an Ontario Liberal
back-bencher MP:
"I'm getting more and more letters and phone calls and faxes from
members of my Liberal Riding Association, complaining about Bill C-68.
I'm even getting flak from the Executive of the Association on it.
"The Riding Association has power. It can refuse to put MY NAME on the
ballot in the NEXT federal election -- and with this shaky majority,
plus the stress and strain of another Quebec referendum coming, perhaps
it would be wise NOT to stress the relationship between me and my
Executive. We could have ANOTHER federal election well before one is
expected!
"If I oppose Chretien on proclaiming C-68, it won't be like the last
session, when he fired Warren Allmand and John Nunziata for disagreing
with him. With such a small majority, he can't AFFORD to fire MPs, or
even fight with them. If he loses 5 MPs -- to ALL causes, including
firing, death, resignation, floor-crossing, illness -- he no longer has
a majority.
"True, he has Conservative and NDP allies who will side with him in
firearms control issues -- but I know Chretien. He will never rely on
allies when he has any chance to rely on Liberal MPs who are under his
direct command.
"I'm not as worried about him parachuting in a candidate to replace me
when the next election rolls around. That gimmick has not worked well,
and a high percentage of "parachute" candidates LOSE.
"Nope. This is a Parliament where a back-bencher -- particularly one
with a few like-minded Liberal MP friends -- can push for changes in
relative safety. I think I'm gonna push for more delay, and hope that
C-68 dies on the vine before it gets even more voters mad at us."
Consider it carefully, firearms community of Ontario. You, and
everyone you worked with, worked SO hard for so little result. Now I
am showing you how you can use your new-found political skills to have
a much greater effect with far fewer resources and personnel.
The actual turnout for a Liberal Party Rding Association meeting is
usually between 2 and 90 people. Using the same people who worked with
you during the campaign, you can easily recruit more members than
THAT.
At $5 per membership, the Plan B tactic is cheap, simple and easy.
Go get 'em, tigers!
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
FOCUS: "Hey, I thought we BEAT them! The war is supposed to be OVER!"
Typical Liberal MP
Sorry, man. This war isn't over until WE say it's over.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:34:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Alex Damiano <adam...@pathcom.com>
Subject: Let me outta here.....
The media in Ontario is so biased against Reform that some are saying
that with us as the official opposistion, Quebec will be driven to
separation.. These are the same #$%holes who kissed the separatists
butts and tip-toed around them as not to offend them.. the same biased
media has no problems with offending Reform and Western Canada.
A comment I read on http://www.election.ca from a separatist.."now the
reform is the official opposition, I will be looking forward to my new
country of Quebec." Just goes to show ya.. when the Bloc was the
opposition, they said that they had a mandate to separate, now Reform
is oppositon and they say that Western Canada voted to alienate Quebec
and they want to separate... We just can't win...
All this because there's too may damn lieberals in Ontario. Let me
outta here..
I'm seriously thinking of moving out west..
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:39:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dave McNeil" <dave....@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Ontario, and Canada's loss.
I have read a number of posts correctly pointing out that Ontario is
responsible for another Liberal majority. I'm not sure where to lay
the 'blame', but let me say as one who worked on the campaign for Paul
Shaw (Simcoe-Grey) it was not for the lack of trying.
I was stunned beyond belief when I learned we had lost my riding (by
less than 500 votes), and I am still close to tears. I find myself
wracked with the 'what if' syndrome, as in, 'what if I had spent
another day door knocking instead of paper shuffling' etc. One poster
wondered if Reform was hurt in an anti-Mike-Harris backlash. I'm not
sure, but that might be part of it.
I will say that I think APEC hurt us considerably. The Alliance for
the Preservation of English in Canada kept putting up their signs near
ours, which kept finding their way onto the six oclock news as though
we had put them there ourselves, and elicited the predictable racist
name tag for Reform.
Another thing that hurt us big-time is 'brand loyalty' where
traditional conservative voters did just that. The Conservative team
was conspicuous by their absence, putting up only a few signs and not
maintaining those that were vandalized. Ditto for Liberal. (results
here were aprox 15,500 Liberal, 15,000 Reform, and 11,000 PC.)
While I am heartbroken I know that deep down I have not given up. I
will lick my wounds and they will heal, and I will not repeat my
mistakes. And there *will* be a next time.
Congratulations to Dave T. and all the others for their hard work, and
Canada owes you for your efforts in delivering us a responsible
Official Opposition as opposed to the farce we had last time.
Dave McNeil
dave....@sympatico.ca
----- End Included Message -----
Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with:
Bonwick, Paul Liberal Party of Canada 17,899 35.00
Shaw, Paul Reform Party of Canada 17,414 34.00
Paul Shaw did very well. There's _always_ a next time...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:43:12 -0600 (CST)
From: rod bugaresti <mac...@istar.ca>
Subject: Mike's banned books
Michal Cahlon <bats...@interlog.com> wrote:
>To add to my May 28 post regarding _Unintended Consequences_: I ordered
>the book on-line from www.amazon.com and they tell me it has been
>shipped. Now I wait and hope all goes well.
>
>As to whether it has actually been banned or not: I called the
>publisher directly last week and left a message on their answering
>machine asking for clarification re their refusal to ship to Canada.
>(That was the reason my local bookstore gave for not being able to get
>the book. I have no reason to doubt the bookstore, they have been great
>about ordering books for me in the past.)
>
>Anyhow, I left both my home and work numbers - to date Accurate Press
>has not bothered to return my call. Their book may or may not be any
>good, but their customer service leaves something to be desired. (And
>no, their size is not an excuse.)
About your book (Unintended Consequences) we deal in all types of books
from Delta to Paladin to MOM and a ton more. Many of the publishers
have refused shipping to Canada because the system gives them such a
bad time that its not worth their while to bother.
We on the other hand do all our own importing and all our orders come
to our US address. Therefore there is no problem getting books on
anything other than Hate, Porno. and Treason.
That way all Canadian customers stay of the government Hit list and
believe me there is just such a thing.
We have been bringing your book in for a long time now but they will
only ship to U.S. Address on most of them.
Keep it simple ""BUY CANADIAN"", and support a fellow gunner.!!
ALL ORDERS PREPAID:
SECURITY SERVICES & AIDS CO.
1708 E 1st. Ave. , Vancouver , B.C. V5N 1B1
We have only about 6000 different books on everything from
building a machine gun to an A BOMB. Plus about 4000 Video's etc,
etc.
Just E Mail your order and we will give you a price and you can send
an M.O. NO CREDIT CARDS-NO TRACKS..
The Book you want now is $50.00 plus shipping from here to you. plus
GST.
We will ship COD if you want.
Rod. Bugaresti
SSAC.
& Coordinator Fld. OPS.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:56:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Fred Davis" <Fred.Davi...@nt.com>
Subject: RE: What the Hell Happened?????
From: Rick Young [SMTP:ryo...@BIONET.BIO.DFO.CA]
> But what the hell happened in Ontario???? Was this some kind of Mike
> Harris backlash? Allan Rock had a cake walk - even if the PC/Reform
> total vote is combined, the Liberals still got about 10% more! And
> public dissatisfaction was evident - Chretien only won by about 1,700
> vote in a race with the Bloc where well over 40,000 were cast for the
> two candidates, whereas the other leaders won by miles!
"The problem" with Ontario is:
1) "Paint a pig red and call it a Liberal and I'll vote for it" type of
sheeple.
2) The divided right; this is the BIG problem.
Read Peter Worthington in todays (Thurs) Ottawa Sun; he states that in
THIRTY ridings in Ontario, the combined Reform/PC vote was MORE than
that of the Lieberal candidate. I've been peeking into this myself
using the Elections Canada web site at
http://209.29.120.21/cgi-win/firstSource.dll?EN+PROVSEARCH+0+n
The numbers are nothing short of AMAZING. For instance, in
Lanark-Carleton (even the media were predicting a Reform win), the
Reformers got 27% of the vote, and the PC party candidate (a well-known
local farmer who sits on Lanark County council) got 21%. The Lieberal
incumbent, Ian Murray, received 45% (which is probably accountable to
the aforementioned sheeple); Point being, the small-"c" conservative
vote outnumbered the Liberal vote.
This happened ALL OVER Ontario.
The "right" MUST unite; IMHO the PC party is DEAD, but we've got to
convince rest of the small-"c" conservative Ontarians.
BTW, am I the ONLY one MORE than slightly irritated that the media was
crowing on election night that popular support for Reform was down to
17%, only to see at the elections Canada web site that the media was
LYING, and that it's over 19%? (And this includes Quebec).
Fred
----- End Included Message -----
Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with:
Reform got nearly 2.5 million votes, tens of thousands more than the
PCs who were running a full slate of candidates in Quebec (while Reform
was not).
Reform also came in a close second in quite a few Ontario riding, while
also making considerable gains in the Atlantic provinces.
This election was no backslide for Reform.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:59:43 -0600 (CST)
From: John Fowler <jfo...@magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: you have until the end of 2002 to register
>[As I recall, you have until the end of 2002 to register. There will
>be another federal election in 2000 or 2001... -- Skeeter]
Do you think Creten and his liebrals can keep a lid on things for more
than two years, Skeeter? (We're going on the campaign trail here in a
couple of months.)
I doubt he can stay in power more than two years with that dog's
breakfast - just enough time to establish Reform's credibility in
Ontario.
Walk softly and join the NFA
The gun you save may be your own.
John Fowler
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:01:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "John E. Stevens" <jste...@serix.com>
Subject: Re: Elections
Lawrence F. Hill wrote:
>
>Hi there, someone in Ontario did us in aaaaaagggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!
>What a bummer!!
>
Please don't bash us again. A very large number of people worked very
hard for Reform in this province. Unfortunately there seems to be an
image of Reform that just won't go away. A large number of women are
convinced that Reform policy is to keep them pregnant and barefoot in
the kitchen. The objective of breaking up Canada is a perception along
with all the other ugly things. When one talks to them and really
discusses policey, the response is "well, yes I see that but I'm just
not comfortable with it".
Sadly, in a large number of ridings, a combination of Reform and PC
(that ugly word) votes would have soundly defeated the Liberal
government. Unless these two reach some kind of an arrangement, Paul
Martin or Uncle Al will probably form the next government, if we get
another chance to vote.
In any case, chances are high that it won't matter too much here.
Ontario will probably be a gun free zone by then.
We've come a long way. We've got a long way to go. Let's not get
devisive now.
............John
[Amen. -- Skeeter]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:07:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <nfa...@telusplanet.net>
Subject: ANY government is a system for reapportioning wealth
"A government -- ANY government -- is nothing more than a system for
reapportioning wealth. it takes money from one group of people and
gives it to another group of people. And when it happens that enough
people decide that they don't like the way the wealth is being
reapportioned, that's when that government will be replaced by another
one more to the people's liking.
"But you cannot use the new government to redress all the wrongs of the
previous government -- not without creating far more problems than
you'll ever clean up. You'll end up with a government entirely
concerned with past events and not present ones. That is a sure way to
set yourself up to fail.
"If you're going to win at this game [forming a government], you have to
deal with circumstances the way they are, not the way they used to be
or the way you'd like them to be. That's the only way to produce
results.
"The real question, then, is what DO you have control over?"
______________________________________________________________________
"There is no such thing as government.
"Point to it. Show me the government. Show me ANY government.
"You can't. You can show me some buildings, and some people, and some
rules written down on paper. but you CAN'T show me a government.
Because there's no such thing in the physical universe. It's just
something we made up.
"It exists only by our agreement that it does. You just proved that
here. We agreed that we wanted some stuff managed, and we agreed on
some rules how it should be managed. Those agreements are the
government. Nothing else.
"How big the government gets depends on how many agreements you make.
If enough people agree, we'll build some buildings and hire some people
to work in them, managing the agreements for us.
"Now here's the question: How do you know if something is the business
of government or not? -- that is, the business of the people we've
hired to work in our buildings and manage our agreements for us? How
do they know what to manage? What is the test?
"No, put your hand down. It's too simple. A person, place or thing is
in the jurisdiction of a government if it TESTS that government's
agreements. If it doesn't, it isn't.
"The government doesn't have to manage the people who KEEP the
agreements. They don't need management.
"It IS the business of government to manage those people who TEST the
agreements. That is it. The WHOLE of government consists of the art
of managing people TO keep the agreements -- ESPECIALLY those who do
the managing.
"Management is decision-making, right? So, the question is -- What are
the guidelines by which the managers make their decisions? What is the
meter-stick?
Marcie something-or-other interjected: "The agreements, of course. The
rules."
"Not bloody likely. The rules are just the context -- the
AUTHORIZATION for the decisions. In fact, history is about men and
women NOT following the rules. History is a list of who tested what
agreements.
"Evry time an agreement is tested, the person whose responsibility the
management of that agreement is, is also being tested. So, what does
that person use for guidelines? -- particularly when there are no [or
inadequate] guidelines? What is the SOURCE of that person's choice?
"The truth is that ultimately every single choice is a reflection of
the integrity of the individual making it."
David Gerrold
DAVE'S COMMENT: Our Members of Parliament voted themselves a golden
pension plan, with almost all of the funds for it coming out of our tax
dollars.
Criminal Code section 119 says:
119. (1) Every one who
(a) being...a Member of Parliament...corruptly
(i) accepts or obtains...
any money or valuable consideration...for himself or another
person in respect of anything done or omitted or to be done or
omitted by him in his official capacity...
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a
term not exceeding fourteen years.
DAVE'S QUESTIONS: Did the MPs who set up that golden pension plan for
themselves violate CC s. 119?
Did acting in their own self-interest mean that they acted "corruptly,"
or did WE authorize them to act in their own self-interest by an
agreement?
If the choice to authorize or revoke that golden pension for them --
with no corresponding golden pension for the needy of the nation -- was
put to a national referendum, would it be authorized or revoked?
If it was revoked, should the revocation be retroactive?
This is a test.
Post your answers for others to snipe at.
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
FOCUS: To change a government, you should understand what it is, and
how changes are made. Changes can be made by changing the rules,
changing the Party in power, changing the individual at the head of the
Party in power, or changing the nature of the Party in power. We are
currently engaged in executing Plan B, which is change by the last
method.
------------------------------
End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #872
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ph.: (403) 439-1394 ph.: (403) 640-1110
fax: (403) 439-4091 fax: (403) 640-1144
e-mail: nfa...@telusplanet.net Web site: http://www.nfa.ca/
N.F.A. memberships: families: $40; seniors: $20;
individuals: $30; businesses: $50. Included are eleven
issues of the N.F.A. newsletter Point Blank, and Canadian
Outdoor Publications magazines like Hunting and Shooting.
Add just $4.75 per person for $2,000,000 insurance!
Clubs: get associate memberships for just $2 per member
($40 minimum) and members will be still eligible for
$2,000,000 liability insurance for just $4.75 each!
Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest.
You can find the above issue and hundreds of other digests at:
http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/cdn-firearms/Digests/
Digest back-issues are available from the Cdn-Firearms web/FTP site
after they are roughly one month old. The above digest was about
three months old at the time of posting.
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The above opinions may differ from those of others. Take no offense.
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