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NSW Greens MLC David Shoebridge gets a 'pasting' on his own website
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Chris Diesel
Apr 20, 2012, 1:06:18 PM4/20/12
to
Greens MLC David Shoebridge got a real pasting on his website after the
Greens latest call to ban semi-auto handguns. All were polite, logical and
most ripped his logic to hell.
You'd expect even a deluded politicians to have at least one comment in
support. But out of 54 comments posted, not one supported him, except for a
few posted by Davis himself. He kept quoting US crime rates and said,
"....people don't want to switch our gun culture with that of the US". All
the while conveniently ignoring New Zealand, Canada and Switzerland, where
there are plenty of guns (semi-auto ones too), but not high gun crime rates.
He also didn't mention the UK, where handguns are banned. But they still
have plenty of handgun crime.
David was asked on several occasions to cite his claims. But while he
respond to a few comments (and was shot down in flames for his efforts),
he's apparently decided to remain silent on questions like this, "Your "fact
sheet" doesn't cite any sources, so it's about as good a reference as toilet
paper. Can you reference the report(s) from the ACC that you have used to
source this article?"
Have a read, many are very interesting. But don't think you can leave your
own comment now, as apparently he's had enough of a reality check and closed
the comments down.
http://davidshoebridge.org.au/2012/04/17/new-figures-confirm-rampant-handgun-use-in-drive-by-shootings/#comment-2572
Some of the many unanswered questions and interesting comments made to
David Shoebridge:
1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough) and
a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large number
of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
something to think about.
2.. On your fact sheet there is a glaring, GLARING, omission David, that
being what % of firearms that are used in crime are used by LAFO's and or
were stolen from LAFO's. Please produce these stats and where you got them.
3.. Please do not quote the anti-gun Philip Alpers, without first
declaring his anti-gun position. Hardly an impartial & objective person to
supply facts & figures
4.. Mr Shoebridge, I note that a previous post by myself, a simple and
polite request for you to make public the source of your information
supporting your position has been deleted? Am I to assume that this
information is non-existent, or is it simply a case that the studies
available don't support your argument at all, and hence would not suit your
agenda to make them public?
5.. 43 hand gun thefts out of a pool of some 42,000 (your figure not mine)
gives me a percentage of .1% of registered firearms that have potentially
made their way into the hands of criminals. When you compare this number to
the estimated 220 Glock pistols illegally imported by just one criminal
enterprise operating in Sydney it starts to put things into a better
perspective.
6.. I notice that David has only replied to the comments where there has
been some controversial comment. To none the comments or questions posed
with sense and logic has he bothered to reply.
.................................................................
New figures confirm rampant handgun use in drive-by shootings
Media Release, April 17, 2012
New figures obtained by The Greens and the National Coalition for Gun
Control confirm that in 87 per cent of drive by shootings the weapon of
choice for criminals is a handgun. This highlights the failure of the NSW
Government to take any steps at all to control the rising number of handguns
in circulation in this State.
The Greens NSW Justice Spokesperson, David Shoebridge, said:
"Police records obtained by The Greens confirm that handguns have been used
in almost 90% of drive by shootings in Sydney and in almost every case the
handgun was a semi automatic pistol.
"It is no coincidence that this rise in drive by shootings with semi
automatic handguns is mirrored by an enormous increase in the number of
handguns in circulation in NSW.
"The number of registered handguns in NSW has exploded from 33,858 in 2005
to 42,127 in late 2011. That is a 24% increase in just 6 years.
"This Government needs to stare down the pro-gun lobby and reverse this
trend by banning private ownership of semi automatic handguns," Mr
Shoebridge said.....
http://davidshoebridge.org.au/2012/04/17/new-figures-confirm-rampant-handgun-use-in-drive-by-shootings/
Greens latest call to ban semi-auto handguns. All were polite, logical and
most ripped his logic to hell.
You'd expect even a deluded politicians to have at least one comment in
support. But out of 54 comments posted, not one supported him, except for a
few posted by Davis himself. He kept quoting US crime rates and said,
"....people don't want to switch our gun culture with that of the US". All
the while conveniently ignoring New Zealand, Canada and Switzerland, where
there are plenty of guns (semi-auto ones too), but not high gun crime rates.
He also didn't mention the UK, where handguns are banned. But they still
have plenty of handgun crime.
David was asked on several occasions to cite his claims. But while he
respond to a few comments (and was shot down in flames for his efforts),
he's apparently decided to remain silent on questions like this, "Your "fact
sheet" doesn't cite any sources, so it's about as good a reference as toilet
paper. Can you reference the report(s) from the ACC that you have used to
source this article?"
Have a read, many are very interesting. But don't think you can leave your
own comment now, as apparently he's had enough of a reality check and closed
the comments down.
http://davidshoebridge.org.au/2012/04/17/new-figures-confirm-rampant-handgun-use-in-drive-by-shootings/#comment-2572
Some of the many unanswered questions and interesting comments made to
David Shoebridge:
1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough) and
a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large number
of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
something to think about.
2.. On your fact sheet there is a glaring, GLARING, omission David, that
being what % of firearms that are used in crime are used by LAFO's and or
were stolen from LAFO's. Please produce these stats and where you got them.
3.. Please do not quote the anti-gun Philip Alpers, without first
declaring his anti-gun position. Hardly an impartial & objective person to
supply facts & figures
4.. Mr Shoebridge, I note that a previous post by myself, a simple and
polite request for you to make public the source of your information
supporting your position has been deleted? Am I to assume that this
information is non-existent, or is it simply a case that the studies
available don't support your argument at all, and hence would not suit your
agenda to make them public?
5.. 43 hand gun thefts out of a pool of some 42,000 (your figure not mine)
gives me a percentage of .1% of registered firearms that have potentially
made their way into the hands of criminals. When you compare this number to
the estimated 220 Glock pistols illegally imported by just one criminal
enterprise operating in Sydney it starts to put things into a better
perspective.
6.. I notice that David has only replied to the comments where there has
been some controversial comment. To none the comments or questions posed
with sense and logic has he bothered to reply.
.................................................................
New figures confirm rampant handgun use in drive-by shootings
Media Release, April 17, 2012
New figures obtained by The Greens and the National Coalition for Gun
Control confirm that in 87 per cent of drive by shootings the weapon of
choice for criminals is a handgun. This highlights the failure of the NSW
Government to take any steps at all to control the rising number of handguns
in circulation in this State.
The Greens NSW Justice Spokesperson, David Shoebridge, said:
"Police records obtained by The Greens confirm that handguns have been used
in almost 90% of drive by shootings in Sydney and in almost every case the
handgun was a semi automatic pistol.
"It is no coincidence that this rise in drive by shootings with semi
automatic handguns is mirrored by an enormous increase in the number of
handguns in circulation in NSW.
"The number of registered handguns in NSW has exploded from 33,858 in 2005
to 42,127 in late 2011. That is a 24% increase in just 6 years.
"This Government needs to stare down the pro-gun lobby and reverse this
trend by banning private ownership of semi automatic handguns," Mr
Shoebridge said.....
http://davidshoebridge.org.au/2012/04/17/new-figures-confirm-rampant-handgun-use-in-drive-by-shootings/
Klaus Schadenfreude
Apr 20, 2012, 1:22:40 PM4/20/12
to
>"Chris Diesel" <die...@no.real.address.com.au> wrote in talk.politics.guns :
I can't find anything that states handguns used in crimes are sourced
from Australian gun shops or gun owners.
Am I missing something? If not, then Shoebridge would have to prove
that's the problem before offering a ban as a solution. Otherwise he's
just jerking off.
Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: My question is addressed to the Minister for
Police. Of the firearms seized by police in Sydney over the past 12
months, how many firearms seized were legally registered firearms, and
how many of the firearms seized were once legally registered firearms?
Are these figures that the police are tracing?
The Hon. MICHAEL GALLACHER: Yes, they are. I have asked for an
examination of all firearms that have been taken into police
possession. Mr David Shoebridge has been outspoken on these issues in
the past. It will come as no surprise to him that organised crime
groups do not recognise State boundaries. In New South Wales we are
restricted in our ability to go beyond those boundaries and very
little correlation has occurred at a national level.
Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: What are you doing about data sharing with the
other crime data bases?
The Hon. MICHAEL GALLACHER: The Australian Crime Commission is
collating information about all firearms that have been seized around
the nation over the past 12 months and has started to profile those
firearms. As the honourable member has often said, guns can come into
the hands of criminals as a result of break and enters, armoured guard
robberies or some other process. Also, the situation can occur where
guns come into the country without any record of them—they do not
have serial numbers—and they are used in the commission of offences.
That situation goes beyond New South Wales Police and State
jurisdictions; it involves customs and the Federal Government. I thank
the honourable member for a very sensible question requesting
information on the full scope of this issue. When the figures are
available I assure the honourable member that I will make such
information publicly available.
This was from February 2012. He's good at making accusations- where
are the facts?
from Australian gun shops or gun owners.
Am I missing something? If not, then Shoebridge would have to prove
that's the problem before offering a ban as a solution. Otherwise he's
just jerking off.
Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: My question is addressed to the Minister for
Police. Of the firearms seized by police in Sydney over the past 12
months, how many firearms seized were legally registered firearms, and
how many of the firearms seized were once legally registered firearms?
Are these figures that the police are tracing?
The Hon. MICHAEL GALLACHER: Yes, they are. I have asked for an
examination of all firearms that have been taken into police
possession. Mr David Shoebridge has been outspoken on these issues in
the past. It will come as no surprise to him that organised crime
groups do not recognise State boundaries. In New South Wales we are
restricted in our ability to go beyond those boundaries and very
little correlation has occurred at a national level.
Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: What are you doing about data sharing with the
other crime data bases?
The Hon. MICHAEL GALLACHER: The Australian Crime Commission is
collating information about all firearms that have been seized around
the nation over the past 12 months and has started to profile those
firearms. As the honourable member has often said, guns can come into
the hands of criminals as a result of break and enters, armoured guard
robberies or some other process. Also, the situation can occur where
guns come into the country without any record of them—they do not
have serial numbers—and they are used in the commission of offences.
That situation goes beyond New South Wales Police and State
jurisdictions; it involves customs and the Federal Government. I thank
the honourable member for a very sensible question requesting
information on the full scope of this issue. When the figures are
available I assure the honourable member that I will make such
information publicly available.
This was from February 2012. He's good at making accusations- where
are the facts?
B J Foster
Apr 20, 2012, 5:45:25 PM4/20/12
to
On 21/04/2012 3:06 AM, Chris Diesel wrote:
> 5.. 43 hand gun thefts out of a pool of some 42,000 (your figure not mine)
> gives me a percentage of .1% of registered firearms that have potentially
> made their way into the hands of criminals. When you compare this number to
> the estimated 220 Glock pistols illegally imported by just one criminal
> enterprise operating in Sydney it starts to put things into a better
> perspective.
Logic is not The Greens' strong point.
> 5.. 43 hand gun thefts out of a pool of some 42,000 (your figure not mine)
> gives me a percentage of .1% of registered firearms that have potentially
> made their way into the hands of criminals. When you compare this number to
> the estimated 220 Glock pistols illegally imported by just one criminal
> enterprise operating in Sydney it starts to put things into a better
> perspective.
B J Foster
Apr 20, 2012, 5:47:04 PM4/20/12
to
On 21/04/2012 3:06 AM, Chris Diesel wrote:
> 1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
> applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough) and
> a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large number
> of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
> something to think about.
Filed for future reference.
> applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough) and
> a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large number
> of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
> something to think about.
How many of them have driver's licenses BTW?
Chris Diesel
Apr 20, 2012, 7:17:26 PM4/20/12
to
"B J Foster" <bjfo...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:jmslgj$bkk$4...@bjf.motzarella.org...
> On 21/04/2012 3:06 AM, Chris Diesel wrote:
>> 1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
>> applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough)
>> and
>> a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large
>> number
>> of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
>> something to think about.
>
> Filed for future reference.
Yeah, I thought it was very good too.
>> 1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
>> applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough)
>> and
>> a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large
>> number
>> of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
>> something to think about.
>
> Filed for future reference.
> How many of them have driver's licenses BTW?
serious risk to other road users.
While on the subject of drivers licences. I thought this posted comment is
relevant at this time.
The Greens could propose a revamp of the current requirements around motor
vehicle ownership and usage.
1. We introduce a new licensing scheme in which in person wanting to obtain
a motor vehicle licence must pass a strict police and background check.
2. Once the aforementioned person is deemed fit and proper by the check, the
applicant must then attend and pass an approved training course on the use
of the vehicle, this would be different to the current scheme in which an
applicant books his or her test, drives and passes, thus gaining the
licence.
3. On successful completion of the training course the applicant must then
send all there paper work into the police for final approval.
4. If the applicant is then granted a motor vehicle licence, He or She will
then have to apply to the Police for a permit to acquire (PTA) a motor
vehicle, complete with a genuine reason for owning the motor vehicle as well
as proof of safe storage of the motor vehicle. If this is the first motor
vehicle on the licence there will need to be a mandatory 28 day waiting
period, also known as a "cooling off period"
5. If the PTA is then granted the applicant must only be able purchase a
motor vehicle through a licensed motor vehicle dealer.
Now lets move on to safe storage of the motor vehicle.
1. The motor vehicle must be kept inside an approved locked garage, so as
not to be stolen for use in a drive-by.
2. The stored motor vehicle must have the ignition removed and stored in a
locked separate location.
3. Any fuel in the vehicle must also be removed and stored in an approved
lockable container with appropriate Danger signs warning of explosive
liquids and to keep sources of ignition away.
4. Only the person holding a valid motor vehicle license should have access
to the garage.
You could also introduce a category system for motor vehicles. Something
akin to the current firearm categories;
Cat A & B vehicles could be ones that can only go as fast as 120Km/hr.
Cat C vehicles could be vehicles that can go faster than 120Km/hr and can
only be approved to licences that have at least 40acres plus of private race
track, the Cat C vehicle can also never be removed from that property.
We would also have to penalise persons wanting to keep collectors cars, the
engine must be removed or made permanently inoperable and the exhaust welded
closed at the end so that it may never be used in a drive-by.
The Greens would also need to organise a buy back, destruction and ban of
import of all Hummer branded vehicles in Australia as they are "military
like in appearance" and may scare the public.
Thank you for taking the time to read my submission. I hope that by
penalising the law abiding motor vehicle owner that we can stop these
drive-by shootings once and for all.
B J Foster
Apr 20, 2012, 8:01:07 PM4/20/12
to
On 21/04/2012 9:17 AM, Chris Diesel wrote:
> "B J Foster"<bjfo...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:jmslgj$bkk$4...@bjf.motzarella.org...
>> On 21/04/2012 3:06 AM, Chris Diesel wrote:
>>> 1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
>>> applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough)
>>> and
>>> a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large
>>> number
>>> of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
>>> something to think about.
>>
>> Filed for future reference.
>
> Yeah, I thought it was very good too.
>
>> How many of them have driver's licenses BTW?
>
> Not many I hope. If their logic is as bad is DS, then they might pose a
> serious risk to other road users.
...or occupants of homes in South Western Sydney ;-)
> "B J Foster"<bjfo...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:jmslgj$bkk$4...@bjf.motzarella.org...
>> On 21/04/2012 3:06 AM, Chris Diesel wrote:
>>> 1.. Most Greens ministers are ineligible for firearms licences. Any
>>> applicant for a licence requires a clear criminal history (fair enough)
>>> and
>>> a surprisingly (well, not surprisingly. how 'bout worryingly) large
>>> number
>>> of Greens ministers have arrest records, many with convictions. Just
>>> something to think about.
>>
>> Filed for future reference.
>
> Yeah, I thought it was very good too.
>
>> How many of them have driver's licenses BTW?
>
> Not many I hope. If their logic is as bad is DS, then they might pose a
> serious risk to other road users.
>
> While on the subject of drivers licences. I thought this posted comment is
> relevant at this time.
>
> The Greens could propose a revamp of the current requirements around motor
> vehicle ownership and usage.
>
> 1. We introduce a new licensing scheme in which in person wanting to obtain
> a motor vehicle licence must pass a strict police and background check.
That looks like a recipe for criminals to take over the roads...and
Greens. Didn't you say that a large proportion of Greens had criminal
records?
...
>
> You could also introduce a category system for motor vehicles. Something
> akin to the current firearm categories;
>
> Cat A& B vehicles ...
> You could also introduce a category system for motor vehicles. Something
> akin to the current firearm categories;
>
...
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read my submission. I hope that by
> penalising the law abiding motor vehicle owner that we can stop these
> drive-by shootings once and for all.
>
>
I can't help thinking the the Green-Left need for excessive rules and
> Thank you for taking the time to read my submission. I hope that by
> penalising the law abiding motor vehicle owner that we can stop these
> drive-by shootings once and for all.
>
>
overwhelming regulation stems of a deep-seated self-distrust, i.e. they
know that they themselves have no personal discipline and self-control,
so they seek to have rules imposed on *everyone*.
It's like murderers 'needing' to help detectives.
Chris Diesel
Apr 21, 2012, 9:37:02 AM4/21/12
to
"Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qb63p7tkfcjpj1qq7...@4ax.com...
> have serial numbersâ?"and they are used in the commission of offences.
> That situation goes beyond New South Wales Police and State
> jurisdictions; it involves customs and the Federal Government. I thank
> the honourable member for a very sensible question requesting
> information on the full scope of this issue. When the figures are
> available I assure the honourable member that I will make such
> information publicly available.
>
> This was from February 2012. He's good at making accusations- where
> are the facts?
An interesting read from the NSW Government Hansard. And yes Klaus, the
> jurisdictions; it involves customs and the Federal Government. I thank
> the honourable member for a very sensible question requesting
> information on the full scope of this issue. When the figures are
> available I assure the honourable member that I will make such
> information publicly available.
>
> This was from February 2012. He's good at making accusations- where
> are the facts?
Greens Party and Sam Lee are very good at making allegations and claiming
assumptions or half truths as fact. There also very good at trying to get
and emotional reaction from the pubic rather than thoughtful and logical
reaction.
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/web/common.nsf/V3HHBHome
Chris Diesel
Apr 25, 2012, 6:27:30 AM4/25/12
to
"Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qb63p7tkfcjpj1qq7...@4ax.com...
> have serial numbersâ?"and they are used in the commission of offences.
> That situation goes beyond New South Wales Police and State
> jurisdictions; it involves customs and the Federal Government. I thank
> the honourable member for a very sensible question requesting
> information on the full scope of this issue. When the figures are
> available I assure the honourable member that I will make such
> information publicly available.
>
> This was from February 2012. He's good at making accusations- where
> are the facts?
Found this Klaus. I was published in February 2012 and said 3% of stolen
> jurisdictions; it involves customs and the Federal Government. I thank
> the honourable member for a very sensible question requesting
> information on the full scope of this issue. When the figures are
> available I assure the honourable member that I will make such
> information publicly available.
>
> This was from February 2012. He's good at making accusations- where
> are the facts?
firearms were later used in crime.
Use of stolen firearms in crime: Firearms stolen in three percent of theft
incidents in 2008/09 were identified as having been subsequently used in the
commission of an offence, or found in the possession of a person charged
with a serious offence. In one case, a firearm was found in possession of a
member of an outlawed motorcycle gang. Only one theft resulted in the use of
a firearm to commit a violent crime.
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/Gunviolence:anupdate/$File/e-brief.gun+violence.feb12.pdf
Scout
Apr 25, 2012, 7:57:50 PM4/25/12
to
"Chris Diesel" <die...@no.real.address.com.au> wrote in message
news:ddSdnWYwhLYKTArS...@giganews.com...
" Only one theft resulted in the use of a firearm to commit a violent
crime."
that possession of an illegal firearm is itself a "serious offense" so it's
not surprising that those found in possession of such a firearm were
subsequently charged with a "serious offense".
So, I really don't think this cite supports your claim and indeed would seem
to do much to disprove it.
One case is hardly statistically relevant.
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