> My position > is that our universe is encompassed in a universe with similar physical > rules governing information entropy. ... it is difficult for me to concieve of a space where information can exist without a material base.
This is as I understood you to say and this is the crux of the problem in your postulation. There is no indication that knowledge is limited to a physical base. True, information about the contingent cosmos is based on the physical material of the cosmos. To replicate that would require an equal amount of material. What is known is known physically at some level due to our physical base. What is not known has yet to develop a physical base for it's recognition. Now consider the other statement you made:
>One piece of insight > I hope you have realised, though, is that for determinism to exist in our > universe, the space beyond ours must have the ability to contain an infinite > amount of information within any size quatinity of material. So if > determinsim is fact, then that is one more thing we do know about the other > side of the edge of space.
((This statement did help clarify a couple things for me. Thank you. Determinism while immutable is relative. There is no space beyond what we know as space thus any God force must be contained within that space, thus entropy may be a part of that force. That would make God mortal within space but would change nothing at our human level.))
You are correct in your error. Any knowledge we can put our hands on must have a physical base is correct but to assume that knowledge does not exist without a physical base is an error. For us to know something the knowledge of that thing must have become revealed to us. There are two ways of revelation: physical (invention, discovery) and spiritual (people of insight). The physical we accept after considerable objection and verification, The spiritual we accept and then perpetually fight about. The physical is hard determinism visibly at work, the spiritual is knowledge yet to be realized. The physical is finite, the spiritual is infinite.
((We can petition the (unknown - spiritual) knowledge base through our thought waves (meditation). Circumstance, chance, or cause and effect then may alter an elemental particle to create a physical response to our petition. Prayer may work. Thinking directs action. Both however work as a factor in determinism.))
New question: if "The physical is finite, the spiritual is infinite." is true then could the known universe become saturated with the physical? What would that do to the edge of space?
> *DNA, or rather genetic predisposition. > *Experiences that shape our individual understanding of events. > *The Culture in which we are raised. > *The desire to find/attain that which is missing in our immediate environment.
> ...to name a few.
Whats interesting too is how these different facets are experienced. Recently my husband and I were making love and the urge to actually make a baby overcame me powerfully. It felt chemical/primal, and deeply emotional. It wasnt just sex, or the desire for sex, there was definitely an added component that I have not ever experienced. Nor was it just sentimentality or emotional drive. Very definitely both. Its almost impossible to describe.
This is interesting to me because for many years I have felt I did not want a child, and Im still not sure I do (we still arent sure, I should say). This very distinct moment felt almost like it was out of my hands (mentally) and my body made a decision for me to not prevent pregnancy. Afterwards I felt truly free and unburdened from all fears relating to making the decision to have a child (the free will choice).
Well, I didnt get pregnant. So, now Im thinking that if we do want a child, we should decide and then try. But this is an entirely new area of contemplation for me brought about by some extremely great sex that clearly stirred up some deeply encoded drive- or _something_. All I can say is WOW.
> *DNA, or rather genetic predisposition. > *Experiences that shape our individual understanding of events. > *The Culture in which we are raised. > *The desire to find/attain that which is missing in our immediate environment.
> ...to name a few.
Whats interesting too is how these different facets are experienced. Recently my husband and I were making love and the urge to actually make a baby overcame me powerfully. It felt chemical/primal, and deeply emotional. It wasnt just sex, or the desire for sex, there was definitely an added component that I have not ever experienced. Nor was it just sentimentality or emotional drive. Very definitely both. Its almost impossible to describe.
This is interesting to me because for many years I have felt I did not want a child, and Im still not sure I do (we still arent sure, I should say). This very distinct moment felt almost like it was out of my hands (mentally) and my body made a decision for me to not prevent pregnancy. Afterwards I felt truly free and unburdened from all fears relating to making the decision to have a child (the free will choice).
Well, I didnt get pregnant. So, now Im thinking that if we do want a child, we should decide and then try. But this is an entirely new area of contemplation for me brought about by some extremely great sex that clearly stirred up some deeply encoded drive- or _something_. All I can say is WOW.
> Determinism while immutable is relative. There is no space beyond what > we know as space thus any God force must be contained within that > space, thus entropy may be a part of that force. That would make God > mortal within space but would change nothing at our human level.))
Intresting, but I need more information to understand what you are talking about.
> You are correct in your error. Any knowledge we can put our hands on > must have a physical base is correct but to assume that knowledge does > not exist without a physical base is an error. For us to know > something the knowledge of that thing must have become revealed to us. > There are two ways of revelation: physical (invention, discovery) and > spiritual (people of insight). The physical we accept after > considerable objection and verification, The spiritual we accept and > then perpetually fight about. > The physical is hard determinism visibly at work, the spiritual is > knowledge yet to be realized. The physical is finite, the spiritual is > infinite.
From what I understand you are postulating two distinct types of Knowledge, the physical and the spirtual. Physical being all knowledge we are able to verify using our senses and spiritual being knowledge we are unable to verify because we lack the ability to interpt the knowledge for our sense to absorb. While this is sound logic from my perspective, it dosen't put my statement in error.
My position is the information, not knowledge, requries a material base.
information and knowledge encompass too different definitions, although they do overlap in some areas. Knowledge, as far as I know, was descibed pretty well in you defintion. Information however is much more obtuse then knowledge and extends beyond the human mind.
Information is the order of data used to interpert any seperate construct.
Information exists everywhere, nothing can exist without it. The physical laws of nature are intreprations of information which have been rendered to our senses as natural constuctions. A simple water molecule, for example, when intrepreted through the phyiscal laws produces what we sense as water. The *information* was the order of the molecules which produced the reaction nesscary to form the liquid we know as water.
This paradigm shift is hard to make, which is way I often revert to the analogy of the computer simulated reality. A computer interperts data on a hard drive in the same way our universe interpts data or information of molecules. Producing different effects based on the order of there arrangment.
When reduced down to the very bottom it is all just information.
> ((We can petition the (unknown - spiritual) knowledge base through our > thought waves (meditation). Circumstance, chance, or cause and effect > then may alter an elemental particle to create a physical response to > our petition. Prayer may work. Thinking directs action. Both however > work as a factor in determinism.))
Agreed
> New question: if "The physical is finite, the spiritual is infinite." > is true then could the known universe become saturated with the > physical? What would that do to the edge of space?
Sure that known universe could become saturated but I would worry more about our cosmos then the edge of space if that happen.
> > *DNA, or rather genetic predisposition. > > *Experiences that shape our individual understanding of events. > > *The Culture in which we are raised. > > *The desire to find/attain that which is missing in our immediate environment.
> > ...to name a few.
> Whats interesting too is how these different facets are experienced. > Recently my husband and I were making love and the urge to actually > make a baby overcame me powerfully. It felt chemical/primal, and > deeply emotional. It wasnt just sex, or the desire for sex, there was > definitely an added component that I have not ever experienced. Nor > was it just sentimentality or emotional drive. Very definitely both. > Its almost impossible to describe.
> This is interesting to me because for many years I have felt I did not > want a child, and Im still not sure I do (we still arent sure, I > should say). This very distinct moment felt almost like it was out of > my hands (mentally) and my body made a decision for me to not prevent > pregnancy. Afterwards I felt truly free and unburdened from all fears > relating to making the decision to have a child (the free will > choice).
> Well, I didnt get pregnant. So, now Im thinking that if we do want a > child, we should decide and then try. But this is an entirely new area > of contemplation for me brought about by some extremely great sex that > clearly stirred up some deeply encoded drive- or _something_. All I > can say is WOW.
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