Dratted flaky irony meters
Wesley R. Elsberry
Peter Nyikos commends reading Richard Dawkins' comments on PE
to be found in "The Blind Watchmaker" to me, apparently
forgetful that I was the one who brought Chapter 9 to Peter's
attention last August in Message-ID <4v7n9m$j...@news.tamu.edu>.
Is there some irony-meter repairman whose rates fit a student's
budget? Better yet, are there home-game points for having a
reference unknowingly handed back to you later by the same
person that you provided it to previously?
--
Wesley R. Elsberry, 6070 Sea Isle, Galveston TX 77554. Information sent to any
of my email addresses is my personal property, to be published as I see fit.
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences. http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry
"to flea or a mosquito a human being is merely something good to eat" - archy
Michael D. Painter
Wesley R. Elsberry wrote in article <5rp13o$5...@news.tamu.edu>...
>Peter Nyikos commends reading Richard Dawkins' comments on PE
>to be found in "The Blind Watchmaker" to me, apparently
>forgetful that I was the one who brought Chapter 9 to Peter's
>attention last August in Message-ID <4v7n9m$j...@news.tamu.edu>.
>
>Is there some irony-meter repairman whose rates fit a student's
>budget? Better yet, are there home-game points for having a
>reference unknowingly handed back to you later by the same
>person that you provided it to previously?
I'm afraid you'll find that all meters sold today have no guaranties.
There are few repair people and it is rare today to find a repairable meter
so they must charge high prices to stay in business.
I had what I thought was a foolproof meter ready for the market. At a
certain level the meter was remove from the circuit and a simple LED lit up.
Initial testing went well until a karl post was used.
The LED turned into a laser and put holes in the ceiling.....
This was BEFORE dman showed up.
Needless to say it will not be released.
There is rumor that men in black will b talking to karl.
wf...@enter.netxx
On 30 Jul 1997 23:35:12 -0400, wels...@orca.tamu.edu (Wesley R.
Elsberry) wrote:
>
>Is there some irony-meter repairman whose rates fit a student's
>budget? Better yet, are there home-game points for having a
>reference unknowingly handed back to you later by the same
>person that you provided it to previously?
>
well i think you're pushing your luck...irony meters have a tendency
to explode if not repaired properly. the amount of abuse hurled on
them by the likes of karl really put a strain on the little buggers.
ive had to replace quite a few,and recently purchased one with a
fusable link to avoid a meltdown.
Thomas Scharle
Do irony meters show evidence that they were *designed*?
--
Tom Scharle scha...@nd.edu "standard disclaimer"
Rick Gillespie
In article <5rte42$q...@news.nd.edu>,
Thomas Scharle <sch...@ubiquity.cc.nd.edu> wrote:
> Do irony meters show evidence that they were *designed*?
"Intelligently" designed, or "naturally" designed?
Rick Gillespie
John Wilkins
The intelligently designed ones have a tendency to fry any integrated
circuit within a bull's roar of the CPU when karl and Ed post. The
naturally designed ones (ie, blocks of seasoned hardwood) do not. Goes to
show that intelligent design ain't all it's cracked up to be...
--
John Wilkins, Head of Communication Services, Walter and Eliza
Hall Institute of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia
<http://www.wehi.edu.au/~wilkins><mailto:wil...@wehi.edu.au>
It is not enough to succeed. Friends must be seen to have failed. - Capote
Michael L. Siemon
In article <WILKINS-ya0240800...@newshost.wehi.edu.au>,
WIL...@wehi.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
+The intelligently designed ones have a tendency to fry any integrated
+circuit within a bull's roar of the CPU when karl and Ed post. The
+naturally designed ones (ie, blocks of seasoned hardwood) do not. Goes to
+show that intelligent design ain't all it's cracked up to be...
Ayup. Intelligent design gave us the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, a rather
good Civil Engineering analogue to the construction of talk.origins
irony meters. It's just *amazing* what continued blasts of hot air
can do!
--
Michael L. Siemon m...@panix.com
"Green is the night, green kindled and apparelled.
It is she that walks among astronomers."
-- Wallace Stevens
Wayne Throop
: mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca (Andrew MacRae)
: Beavers are a real problem in Canada. They clog up pipes under roads
: and bridges, kill many trees, drown farmland, etc., and it doesn't
: seem to matter how many are caught and transported elsewhere, more
: move in.
: [...] As a result, there is a significant economic incentive to
: understanding why and how they build dams, and I happened to see a
: good program about the subject. It is amazing what can be
: accomplished with a very simple "instinctive" behaviour. For
: something so elaborate looking, they use a surprisingly simple
: algorithm to build dams.
Hmmm. You might say something about the algorithm. Spell out
the relevant abstractions at least, You know, something like
As a result, there is a significant ecological incentive among
possums, deer, and other so-called "road kill" to understanding how
these humans build interstate highways. It's amazing what can be
done with a very simple, rote behavior. For something so elaborate
looking, they use an interesting algorithm in deciding where to
place these roads, and where to gather the materials for them.
It's very abstract and surprisingly simple, involving exchanges of
economic tokens involving the terms "kickbacks" and "graft" and
"pork barrel".
Nothing as thorough as telling the genetic markers for hive-cleaning
in honeybees or anything... just sketch the algorithmic relations
between bits of behavior.
As humans lining their pockets lead to LA freeways, beavers
<doing something> leads to dams on waterways. What's the <something>?
And remember in this Double Jeopardy round, it's important
to always phrase your response as a question...
--
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org
http://sheol.org/throopw
Andrew MacRae
In article <WILKINS-ya0240800...@newshost.wehi.edu.au>
|In article <5s51cg$5...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, r...@fc.hp.comMAPSON wrote:
|
| | In article <5rte42$q...@news.nd.edu>,
| | Thomas Scharle <sch...@ubiquity.cc.nd.edu> wrote:
| | > Do irony meters show evidence that they were *designed*?
| |
| | "Intelligently" designed, or "naturally" designed?
| |
That makes me wonder -- if a beaver carved an irony-o-meter out of
gopher wood, would it be intelligently designed? For that matter, are
their lodges and dams?
--
-Andrew
mac...@geo.ucalgary.ca (temporary)
http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae (temporary)
Laurence A. Moran
In article <5sccg0$amd$1...@kerberos.ediacara.org>
mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca writes:
> That makes me wonder -- if a beaver carved an irony-o-meter out of
>gopher wood, would it be intelligently designed? For that matter, are
>their lodges and dams?
Dams are designed by natural selection and selfish genes according to
the adaptionists.
"By building a dam across the stream the beaver creates a large
shoreline which is available for safe and easy foraging without
the beaver having to make long and difficult journeys overland.
If this interpretation is right, the lake may be regarded as a
huge extended phenotype, extending the foraging range of the
beaver in a way which is somewhat analogous to the web of the
spider. As in the case of the spider web, nobody has done a
genetic study of beaver dams, but we really do not need to in
order to convince ourselves of the rightness of regarding the
dam, and the lake, as part of the phenotypic expression of
beaver genes. It is enough that we accept that beaver dams
must have evolved by Darwinian natural selection: this can only
have come about if dams have varied under the control of genes."
Richard Dawkins, "The Extended Phenotype", p.200
Don't attack me if you disagree with Dawkins. I don't happen to share
his opinion on the genetic rigidity of behaviour. Just thought Andrew
would enjoy knowing that his question has been addressed.
Larry Moran
da...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Hello, Andrew and Wayne: Pardon me for disturbing the waters.
: |: mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca (Andrew MacRae)
: |: Beavers are a real problem in Canada. They clog up pipes under roads
: |: and bridges, kill many trees, drown farmland, etc., and it doesn't
: |: seem to matter how many are caught and transported elsewhere, more
: |: move in.
In my experience (farmland on the frontier in western Alberta,
near the east slope of the Rockies) beavers can be extirpated, so
long as a concerted effort is made to continue to exclude them from
settled areas.
That way they can only migrate downstream from the high country,
and a la kibbutzim, determined frontier settlers can be used as armed
sentinels to warn of incursions of disruptive elements before they can
do too much damage.
Of course, it helps to have had a combination of beaver feaver and
over-trapping in the recent past that had pushed back the limits of their
distribution well beyond the settled area, giving a South-Lebanon-style
buffer zone.
: |: mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca (Andrew MacRae)
: |: <snip> For something so elaborate looking, they use a
: |: surprisingly simple algorithm to build dams.
: |
: In article <8710...@sheol.org> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
: |Hmmm. You might say something about the algorithm. Spell out
: |the relevant abstractions at least, You know, something like [...]
Andrew MacRae (mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca) wrote:
: I was being deliberately tantalizing in the hopes that people
: would offer some rational guesses first. :-) The algorithm, as it was
: explained, is at the bottom of the post. Some beaver expert can now pipe
: up and tell me I'm completely wrong :-)
: <snip>
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the farm 8->. A couple
factors are missing from the explanation, and I'll try to pass on
some of the info gathered from my research and experience.
Andrew MacRae (mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca) wrote:
: ========explanation below========
: Basically, they pile wood where they hear the sound of rushing
: water. It's that simple. They just keep piling until the sound stops.
: This doesn't cover site selection (I have no idea how they decide that --
: maybe trial and error), but it is the behaviour they use for the actual
: construction.
Beavers also incorporate large quantities of mud into their dams
(around here, the larger part of the volume of the dam).
Imho, beaver ponds came before dams. Scooping out shallow holes
in a stream bottom, perhaps beginning with a large-animal wallow or
stream crossing, would have created an aquatic habitat, followed by a
process of leak-stopping augmented by an adaptation of food-storage
behaviour (i.e. piles of succulent branches stuck in the mud).
Alternatively, they started with naturally impounded water in
late-glacial streams that had not yet had time to drain wide spots
left by glacial disruption of the surface topography.
Today, beavers tend to occupy sites formerly occupied by their
ancestors, so site selection criteria are shrouded in the mists of
Time.
Andrew MacRae (mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca) wrote:
: This has led to some novel ways to trick the beavers by draining
: their lakes "silently" so they don't cause flooding problems. The dam is
: broken, and a pipe is put down in the resulting breach such that it
: extends downstream from the dam and several metres upstream, into the lake
: behind the dam, where the water would be several metres deep when the dam
: is full. Initially, the pipe is not opened. The beavers rush to the
: breach in the dam, and busily pile away until the pipe is completely
: embedded in the dam. Then someone comes along later and opens the upper,
: underwater end of the pipe -- voila, a silent, underwater floodgate that
: can keep the lake level reasonable no matter how high the beavers pile the
: dam. When done right, they don't even know there is a problem, because
: they don't hear anything.
Trouble is, such measures require a significant depth of water on
the upstream side to work effectively: the upstream end of the pipe has
to be far enough from dam and pond-bottom to make obstruction difficult.
If the objective is to drain the swamp, this method won't necessarily
work.
It also depends on a constant depth of water downstream, enough to
submerge the lower end and silence it, and Castor has been known to build
a subsidiary dam to block the lower end.
I would opine that beavers can detect and recognise inaudible flow,
a la leaks in the body of the dam, and then plug them. One attempt at
piping was circumvented when the dratted river rats built a cofferdam
extension on one side of the upper end of the pipe, then plugged it.
The most effective control method seems to be to drain the pond
just before winter, and so not allow them enough water depth to survive
freezing temperatures in winter; they cannot get to their subaqueous
food caches if they're locked in ice.
One enterprising and tree-hugging farmer devised a tripod-and-
tackle structure that allowed him to raise a large grappling hook
embedded in the dam. This was quite effective at breaking up the dam
without use of explosives (which, btw, can be tons of fun).
: In article <8710...@sheol.org> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
: |And remember in this Double Jeopardy round, it's
important : |to always phrase your response as a question...
Andrew MacRae (mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca) wrote:
: Oh, right. I'll take "They pile sticks where they hear the
: rushing water", Alex.
"For a thousand dollars, Andrew: Who are the 'hewers of wood and
drawers of water" mentioned in the Bible?"
--
. . . daryl . . .
. . . geomorphologist without portfolio . . .
Rick Gillespie
In article <5sccg0$amd$1...@kerberos.ediacara.org>,
Andrew MacRae <mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> That makes me wonder -- if a beaver carved an irony-o-meter out of
>gopher wood, would it be intelligently designed?
With or without a coat of pitch? How about 2 coats?
Rick Gillespie
Martyne Brotherton
da...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
(snip)
I hear that beaver skins make really warm and waterproof coats.
Hug
Martyne
Andrew MacRae
In article <8710...@sheol.org> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
|: mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca (Andrew MacRae)
|: Beavers are a real problem in Canada. They clog up pipes under roads
|: and bridges, kill many trees, drown farmland, etc., and it doesn't
|: seem to matter how many are caught and transported elsewhere, more
|: move in.
|: understanding why and how they build dams, and I happened to see a
|: good program about the subject. It is amazing what can be
|: something so elaborate looking, they use a surprisingly simple
|: algorithm to build dams.
|
|the relevant abstractions at least, You know, something like
I was being deliberately tantalizing in the hopes that people
would offer some rational guesses first. :-) The algorithm, as it was
explained, is at the bottom of the post. Some beaver expert can now pipe
up and tell me I'm completely wrong :-)
| As a result, there is a significant ecological incentive among
| possums, deer, and other so-called "road kill" to understanding how
| these humans build interstate highways. It's amazing what can be
| done with a very simple, rote behavior. For something so elaborate
| looking, they use an interesting algorithm in deciding where to
| place these roads, and where to gather the materials for them.
| It's very abstract and surprisingly simple, involving exchanges of
| economic tokens involving the terms "kickbacks" and "graft" and
| "pork barrel".
:-)
|Nothing as thorough as telling the genetic markers for hive-cleaning
|in honeybees or anything... just sketch the algorithmic relations
|between bits of behavior.
I have *no* idea how this factors into the genetics,
unfortunately, although I would be surprised if it has not been studied.
For all I know, it is learned behaviour. I just thought it was nifty that
such a simple principle (whatever its origin) can yield something so
elaborate looking and "designed" as a dam.
========explanation below========
|As humans lining their pockets lead to LA freeways, beavers
|<doing something> leads to dams on waterways. What's the <something>?
Basically, they pile wood where they hear the sound of rushing
water. It's that simple. They just keep piling until the sound stops.
This doesn't cover site selection (I have no idea how they decide that --
maybe trial and error), but it is the behaviour they use for the actual
construction.
This has led to some novel ways to trick the beavers by draining
their lakes "silently" so they don't cause flooding problems. The dam is
broken, and a pipe is put down in the resulting breach such that it
extends downstream from the dam and several metres upstream, into the lake
behind the dam, where the water would be several metres deep when the dam
is full. Initially, the pipe is not opened. The beavers rush to the
breach in the dam, and busily pile away until the pipe is completely
embedded in the dam. Then someone comes along later and opens the upper,
underwater end of the pipe -- voila, a silent, underwater floodgate that
can keep the lake level reasonable no matter how high the beavers pile the
dam. When done right, they don't even know there is a problem, because
they don't hear anything.
|And remember in this Double Jeopardy round, it's important
|to always phrase your response as a question...
Oh, right. I'll take "They pile sticks where they hear the
rushing water", Alex.
--
Paul Yost
da...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote in article
<5sfhpd$eva$1...@news.sas.ab.ca>...
> Hello, Andrew and Wayne: Pardon me for disturbing the waters.
>
> : |: mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca (Andrew MacRae)
> : |: Beavers are a real problem in Canada. They clog up pipes under
roads
> : |: and bridges, kill many trees, drown farmland, etc., and it doesn't
> : |: seem to matter how many are caught and transported elsewhere, more
> : |: move in.
Beavers slow erosion and help build marshes and meadows. They are
wonderful animals, but have been trapped out of much of their former
habitat. There were beavers where I live now a hundred years ago, but
today they are all gone.
da...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: da...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
: (snip)
Martyne Brotherton (br...@a-o.com) wrote:
: I hear that beaver skins make really warm and waterproof coats.
Yessss . . . the perfect Noachian cruise couture . . . but forty
days and forty nights in beaver pelts might have created a ferocious
body odour strong enough to put the animals off their feed (though this
might have helped stretch the rations) . . . come to think of it, could
this be the origin of the dispute that caused the rift between the sons
of Shem and the sons of Ham? Hmmmm . . .
Kenneth Fair
In article <5sf5jb$q0k$1...@kerberos.ediacara.org>,
mac...@UNSPAMgeo.ucalgary.ca wrote:
>In article <8710...@sheol.org> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
>|As humans lining their pockets lead to LA freeways, beavers
>|<doing something> leads to dams on waterways. What's the <something>?
>
> Basically, they pile wood where they hear the sound of rushing
>water. It's that simple. They just keep piling until the sound stops.
>This doesn't cover site selection (I have no idea how they decide that --
>maybe trial and error), but it is the behaviour they use for the actual
>construction.
Ahh, but you see, the same algorithm applies for road building in L.A.
Once council members hear enough complaints about how slow a freeway is,
they spend money to widen it. Of course, in the case of road building,
this is a positive feedback loop, as wider freeways encourage more
traffic. This is the reason why both L.A. and Houston are screwed,
in the long run.
--
KEN FAIR - U. Chicago Law | <http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/kjfair>
Of Counsel, U. of Ediacara | Power Mac! | CABAL(tm) | I'm w/in McQ - R U?
Science is determined not by the nature of the question,
but by the nature of the questioning.
Daniel Howell
In article <mls-060897...@mls.dialup.access.net>,
Michael L. Siemon <m...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <WILKINS-ya0240800...@newshost.wehi.edu.au>,
>WIL...@wehi.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
>
>+The intelligently designed ones have a tendency to fry any integrated
>+circuit within a bull's roar of the CPU when karl and Ed post. The
>+naturally designed ones (ie, blocks of seasoned hardwood) do not. Goes to
>+show that intelligent design ain't all it's cracked up to be...
>
>Ayup. Intelligent design gave us the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, a rather
>good Civil Engineering analogue to the construction of talk.origins
>irony meters. It's just *amazing* what continued blasts of hot air
>can do!
Lets be fair, the Tcoma Narrows bridge was a triumph of engineering.
Possibly not much use as a means of getting from A to B during
a high wind, but amazing as a peice of entertainment....