Path: archiver1.google.com!news2.google.com!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!zeus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!green.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!news.glorb.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!darwin.ediacara.org!there.is.no.cabal
From: "Dana Tweedy" <twee...@cvn.net>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Crop Circles
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:35:21 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Lines: 85
Sender: r...@darwin.ediacara.org
Approved: robo...@ediacara.org
Message-ID: <7fL4c.2584$GQ3.2143@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <80d0c26f.0403100815.4c47509b@posting.google.com> <dbe402.0403102339.757291ae@posting.google.com> <80d0c26f.0403110951.2ec6e422@posting.google.com> <iN94c.844$CJ5.151@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <80d0c26f.0403130830.5d3b2c0@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: darwin
X-Trace: darwin.ediacara.org 1079213721 86258 128.100.83.246 (13 Mar 2004 21:35:21 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@darwin.ediacara.org
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:35:21 +0000 (UTC)
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.68.46.178


"Sean Pitman" <seanpitnos...@naturalselection.0catch.com> wrote in message
news:80d0c26f.0403130830.5d3b2c0@posting.google.com...
> "Dana Tweedy" <twee...@cvn.net> wrote in message
news:<iN94c.844$CJ5.151@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>
> > > The same is true for skin healing itself.  The reason why skin can
> > > heal itself is because of the pre-existence of a very high level of
> > > functional complexity, which includes the rest of the body.  For
> > > example, the skin cells cannot work to heal the skin if the person's
> > > heart stops pumping or the blood stops flowing to that area of skin.
> > > All the subparts of the skin and many other aspects of the body must
> > > be placed in a very highly specified arrangement at a very high level
> > > of emergent functional complexity before they can work together to fix
> > > a cut in the skin.  Brought together randomly, the subparts simply
> > > will not self-assemble at this level of complexity.
> > >
> >
> > Sean, are you sure you are an MD?  I'm just a lowly Paramedic, and even
I
> > know that skin cells can be grown in a media culture, without the need
for
> > the whole human body.   All that is required for healing the skin is
cell
> > division, something cells have been doing for billions of years before
there
> > was a human body to hang the skin on.
>
> Do you, as a paramedic, know why a diabetic patient gets foot ulcers
> that will not heal themselves?  Such wounds would heal quickly on a
> healthy person's foot.  Why won't they heal on the diabetic patient's
> foot?

Usually poor circulation, resulting in tissue death. .   That doesn't answer
my point.  Skin cells, like other cells, can exist without a body to support
them.   Diabetics have trouble getting the nutrition and O2 to their distal
cells, but the cells themselves can survive quite well as long as something
is providing them with nutrition and oxygen. Your point seems to be that
cells die without nutrition, which is true, but irrelevant.

>
> The difference, you understand, is a lack of blood supply.  Certainly
> you can grow skin cells on a culture medium, but the skin cells cannot
> grow without the culture medium providing them with nutrients.
> Likewise, skin cells cannot grow to heal the body without the
> nutrients brought by their blood supply.  And another thing as an
> aside, living skin on a body is far more than the superficial skin
> cell layers produced in vitro for grafting purposes.

Again, you seem to be missing my point.  You say that the body is required
for skin cells to regenerate.  I'm saying that skin cells can exist without
the body.  Cells existed without human bodies for billions of years,
therefore your claim, that cells can't exist without a body to support them,
is wrong.

>
> > Also, you seem to be assuming a random self-assembly of sub parts,
something
> > that evolutionary theory does not predict.
>
> Evolution does predict self-assembly of sub parts without the
> involvement of a higher intelligence or more highly ordered outside
> system of complexity

Not true.  Natural selection provides the "more highly ordered outside
system"  No "higher intelligence" is in evidence, or required, so none is
appealed to.  Parts of a human body did not randomly self assemble.  They
were assembled by a natural process, that does not appear to have a "higher
intelligence" to guide it.  The body is made up of cells, living as a colony
in a multicelluar organism.


- - It is just that in the ToE this all happens
> over extended periods of time of self-replication with little
> "mistakes" and exposure to natural selection.

Right, however those "mistakes" are more correctly called "mutations".
Mutations are usually neutral, but some are benefical.  Natural selection
provides the "outside system" that prevents evolution from being a random
process of assembly.



DJT