The dangers of walking.

[John S. Wilkins]

I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
danger!

I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.

As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).

So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
very inattentive to detail).

Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
years of rehab, and possible surgery.

This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.
--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

[Mike Dworetsky]

Ouch! Sorry to hear this. Get well John, do all that the physios tell you
to do. My wife fell in a small hole one fine day when we were exploring
Brimham Rocks* in Yorkshire and sprained her ankle--thankfully nothing as
drastic as yours (took many weeks to heal). It is easily done, and there
wasn't anything you could have done to prevent it.

Go ahead, be grumpy. You are entitled, if anyone is.

*We were walking on the main path, watching teenagers jumping down from the
tops of the high rocks; not a scratch or bruise on any of them.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

[Kleuskes & Moos]

Ouch. Get well, soon. I _do_ have a nitpick, just to get you a bit grumpier:
it's not the walking, but motorcycle-riding that's dangerous. I'll think of
you on the Rheinsteig between Koblenz and Wiesbaden/Mainz (Walking the Walk).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________
/ Why are these athletic shoe salesmen \
\ following me?? /
--------------------------------------
\
\
___
{~._.~}
( Y )
()~*~()
(_)-(_)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[wiki trix]

> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net

> But al be that he was a philosophre,
> Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

Sorry that happened to you. Pain is a pain. My daughter, who is a
philosophy grad student, tells me that pain is what keeps her being
just a modernist rather than a post-modernist, whatever that means.
Not sure how that works for her, but it's probably a good thing, as
far as I can tell. Anyhow, I am wishing you a speedy and thorough
recovery. Try not to get hooked on the morphine. And just say no to
that post-modernism stuff when you get better...

-Odin

[rossum]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

>I am going to be ... fucking grumpy over the next little while.
Well, that only leaves six for the rest of us to share. :)

(And doesn't Grumpy have a capital letter, like Dopey and the rest?)

rossum

[GaryN]

jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote in
news:1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au:

Sorry to hear that John.

I am now going to feel guilty for the delays in sorting your walking
stick, which I'll be shipping on Friday. Admittedly I've had my own
problems but it might have made a difference. Now I'll just feel like
I'm taking the piss.

gary

--
"Your Reputation is what people know about you.
Your Honour is what you know about yourself"

Lois McMaster Bujold.

[Nigel Stapley]

Snow White fell out with the dwarves.

And all they were doing was trying to get on together...

--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>

[GaryN]

Kleuskes & Moos <kle...@somewhere.else.net> wrote in
news:jm3ldt$g54$1...@dont-email.me:

<snip>

> Ouch. Get well, soon. I _do_ have a nitpick, just to get you a bit
> grumpier: it's not the walking, but motorcycle-riding that's
> dangerous. I'll think of you on the Rheinsteig between Koblenz and
> Wiesbaden/Mainz (Walking the Walk).

Motorcycling is safe enough, it's car driving going on in the vicinity that
makes things dangerous! Old motorcyclists adage:

"To stay alive assume that every other road user is a moron out to kill
you"

An almost idiot-proof system for the most part but I and John both found
the truth of another old adage:

"For any idiot-proof system there is a system-proof idiot"

Which is why I walk with a stick and John will soon recieve one made by my
own fair hands, a machete and Buck knife, and the nefarious collusion of
various parties who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>,

jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

Oh, banderdash! And what you are doing with Grump -- remember this is
a PG group.

Why would you want a large economy size rabbit before the jet engine
in your flat?

Am I missing a cultural reference

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[jillery]

John. Please take care of yourself. You are one of the Good People.

[James Beck]

On Apr 11, 8:19 am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%j...@wilkins.id.au>,

>  j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>
> > This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> > my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> > five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> > to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.
>
> Oh, banderdash! And what you are doing with Grump -- remember this is
> a PG group.
>
> Why would you want a large economy size rabbit before the jet engine
> in your flat?
>
> Am I missing a cultural reference

Donnie Darko

[Rodjk #613]

> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net

> But al be that he was a philosophre,
> Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

Sorry to hear this, John. Take care of yourself.

Rodjk #613

[alextangent]

> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net

> But al be that he was a philosophre,
> Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

My sincerest sympathies.

Having busted both knees and lost the ACL entirely in one of them 15
years ago (it's now a Gore-Tex replacement), and as someone mentioned
upstream, his and my advice is keep at the physio. It might hurt like
hell and seem pretty pointless at the time, and you're entitled to be
seriously fucking grumpy about the whole situation. But physio is
vital and will really help you in the long run.

[Friar Broccoli]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins)
wrote:

>I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>danger!
>
>I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
>As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
>time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>
>So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
>doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
>my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
>those names right?

Yup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Knee_diagram.svg

I will follow your suffering with interest since my own right side
anterior cruciate ligament is so stretched as to be non-functional.

I got my nurse early. Since you are now well placed, I suggest you try
and get one too. They are very demanding partners (so have high divorce
rates), but they do take good care of you.

Good Luck.

>I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
>very inattentive to detail).

Is it as good as the beer down there?

>
>Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
>probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
>years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>
>This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
>my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
>five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
>to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

--

Friar Broccoli (Robert Keith Elias), Quebec Canada
I consider ALL arguments in support of my views

[Mitchell Coffey]

I know what it sounds like when you scream in agony so I certainly
understand how much this must have hurt. I hope you have health
insurance, otherwise you're really screwed. I'm saying this because my
first thought - seriously - was that you could come occupy my son's
room while you recuperate. It slipped my mind for a moment that we're
still in the dark ages here.

I suspect you'll get an email from Lorraine, 'cause she likes you even
more than I do. If there's anything we can do, just ask... OK, reword:
we'll keep asking you if there's anything we can do, because you won't
ask.

Mitchell

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Apr 11, 5:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

[snip]

> I expect that my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon ... ."

With your luck it will reassemble itself as a junkyard.

Mitchell

[John S. Wilkins]

nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:

> John S. Wilkins wrote:
>
> > As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee,
>

> I can only imagine that. Must be a sickening experience. My sympathies.

>
> > and by the
> > time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> > above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> > an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> > in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> > comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>

> Evolutionary psychology probably has an "explanation" for that...

Not nearly as good a one as "self-centred prick".

[James Beck]

On Apr 11, 5:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

Most of the people I know who have had knee surgery come through it
trouble-free. I found open focus biofeedback and forced deep breathing
very helpful for pain management.

Speedy recovery. And, Hey. Teacher. Leave those dwarves alone.

[chris thompson]

On Apr 11, 5:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>
> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
> very inattentive to detail).

I believe that Neil Shubin called those three something like "The
Devil's Triangle" in _Your Inner Fish_.

>
> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.

I'm sorry. Please take care of yourself. Pain sucks.

Chris

>
> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.
> --

> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net

[Will in New Haven]

On Apr 11, 5:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

To quote the fictional Istvan di Vega "Pain does not hurt; only fear
hurts. I must be scared to death."

Seriously, do what the therapists tell you but not one bit more. Pain
is often prolonged by trying to do too much. And don't worry about
being grumpy; nobody pays attention to you anyway.

--
Will in New Haven

[Richard Norman]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

Would it help to say "God loves you?" I thought not.
The best I can offer is that life sucks but we just get through
anyway. As others offered, do pay attention to the physical
therapists, sadistic beasts that they are. They really know what they
are doing and why.

My sincerest best wishes for a good recovery. And I should add that I
am looking more kindly at the notion of emergence as an explanation
rather than a process or mechanism -- I think that is your position.
You still have power in this world!

[jillery]

You've heard Wilkins scream in agony before? There's an untold story.

[Mitchell Coffey]

[snip]

He stayed at our house for a week a few years ago. Frequently he
played with our dog. Also, occasionally I cooked.

Mitchell Coffey

[John S. Wilkins]

Thanks, but Australian medical care for the poor and unemployed is
pretty good (I can't say enough good things about the ER staff). As it
happens I do have health insurance for ancillary stuff.

>
> I suspect you'll get an email from Lorraine, 'cause she likes you even
> more than I do. If there's anything we can do, just ask... OK, reword:
> we'll keep asking you if there's anything we can do, because you won't
> ask.

Tell Lorraine I like her more than I do you too.

[John S. Wilkins]

Richard Norman <r_s_n...@comcast.net> wrote:

> And I should add that I
> am looking more kindly at the notion of emergence as an explanation
> rather than a process or mechanism -- I think that is your position.
> You still have power in this world!

It doesn't pay, though...

My point about emergence is that it is an epistemic property not a
causal/ontological one.

[John S. Wilkins]

Never ever choose a safe word longer than 10 letters...

>
>
> >so I certainly
> >understand how much this must have hurt. I hope you have health
> >insurance, otherwise you're really screwed. I'm saying this because my
> >first thought - seriously - was that you could come occupy my son's
> >room while you recuperate. It slipped my mind for a moment that we're
> >still in the dark ages here.
> >
> >I suspect you'll get an email from Lorraine, 'cause she likes you even
> >more than I do. If there's anything we can do, just ask... OK, reword:
> >we'll keep asking you if there's anything we can do, because you won't
> >ask.
> >
> >Mitchell

[Burkhard]

> --
> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net

> But al be that he was a philosophre,
> Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

Ouch! I'm extremely sorry to hear that!! I'll make appropriate
sacrifices to Airmid and also the Ashvins for speedy recovery!

[Richard Norman]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:13:57 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

>Richard Norman <r_s_n...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> And I should add that I
>> am looking more kindly at the notion of emergence as an explanation
>> rather than a process or mechanism -- I think that is your position.
>> You still have power in this world!
>
>It doesn't pay, though...
>
>My point about emergence is that it is an epistemic property not a
>causal/ontological one.

I think that is what I was trying to say -- minus the technical
jargon.

Whatever else, the world is the world and it does what it does for
whatever reason. Had we been smart enough to collect the proper data
and do the calculations, we could have computed that you would take
that spill. Whether you could have then done something about it is
another problematical question.

[James Beck]

He's got medicinal herbs already. Are any of these deities dwarves?
Grumpy can't hold out forever.

[Garamond Lethe]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:13:18 +1000, John S. Wilkins wrote:

> nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:
>
>> John S. Wilkins wrote:
>>
>> > As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee,
>>
>> I can only imagine that. Must be a sickening experience. My sympathies.
>>
>> > and by the time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than
>> > the accident above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked
>> > "Should we call an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a
>> > millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped in between sobs and screams (I am
>> > nothing if not expressive when it comes to pain. If I have to be in
>> > it, others must know that I am).
>>
>> Evolutionary psychology probably has an "explanation" for that...
>
> Not nearly as good a one as "self-centred prick".

I can always spot a fellow union brother....

Damn, John. Here's to a speedy recovery.

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Apr 11, 12:10 pm, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

She knows. You're no different from everyone else.

Mitchell

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Apr 11, 11:13 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
> nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:
> > John S. Wilkins wrote:
>
> > > As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee,
>
> > I can only imagine that. Must be a sickening experience. My sympathies.
>
> > > and by the
> > > time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> > > above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> > > an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> > > in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> > > comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>
> > Evolutionary psychology probably has an "explanation" for that...
>
> Not nearly as good a one as "self-centred prick".

Which is merely an emergent property of the fact that our women are
available all year around.

Mitchell

emergence

[jillery]

Was it that last bit which caused the screams of agony? He could have
fed it to the dog.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>,

Oh, noes! As a preincarnate of yours, I'm due for the same fate in my
future!

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<36176b9d-3ed1-4eae...@l18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,

Grumpy seldom has philosophers try to seduce him.

[wiki trix]

On Apr 11, 12:13 pm, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

I always went with "more". But that never worked too well.

[Boikat]

On Apr 11, 4:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).

I would say something like "I know how that feels" but I've never
ripped tendons or muscles, and from your discription, I'd rather not!
(Though I am going through a bit of sciatica at the moment. :( )

<snip>

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>
> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

OMFG! You cussed!!!

Hope things go well!

Boikat

[raven1]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

How awful! Get better soon!

>I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>danger!
>
>I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
>As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
>time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>

>So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
>doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
>my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
>those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
>very inattentive to detail).
>

[Vend]

On 11 Apr, 16:04, nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:
> Mike Dworetsky wrote:
> > *We were walking on the main path, watching teenagers jumping down from
> > the tops of the high rocks; not a scratch or bruise on any of them.
>
> Young people are annoying, aren't they. Think they are invulnerable, and
> what's worse, they often are.

I managed to damage my articular cartilages of both knees in two
separate accidents (both during exercise) before I turned 25. They
seem to have healed now (I'm 29) but I'm always afraid of doing
anything that puts my knees under intense mechanical stress.

[Vend]

On 11 Apr, 11:33, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.

Get well soon.
My grandmother had one of her knee completely replaced with a
prosthetic knee and she walks quite well for an 85 year old (no
walking aids), so don't despair.

[Burkhard]

OK, in that case I also ask Sukuna Biko - and maybe Kubera for the
other stuff. But only if John promises not to toss them.

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins):

My full sympathy, and my wish for a full recovery
(regardless of what the doctors may project).

And feel free to be as grumpy as you wish; it goes with the
territory.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless

[Kermit]

> --
> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net
> But al be that he was a philosophre,
> Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

Ow.

Sympathies. I wore a leg brace for 18 months after a similar injury,
altho I had only stretched and partially torn the AC and MC ligaments,
and tore the medial meniscus. Of course I was young then... I was
certain I had broken my femur (hit by a car).

They snipped the bit of torn meniscus off in arthroscopic surgery to
prevent it "getting stuck". The surgery was trivial. The pain from the
accident was not, but was excruciating only for days and moderate for
a couple of weeks. The instability lasted for, well, forever.

Do the PT. Lift weights (as directed). Forty years later, I garden and
practice martial arts but my leg was never quite the same again. I
have learned how to move in MA. Jogging and hiking are no trouble, but
I don't play tennis or racquet ball and such.

I have a stretchy off-the-shelf knee brace that I wear sometimes when
I tweak it a bit.

Kermit

[John Stockwell]

Damn. Philosophy is more dangerous than I thought. Rest well, and
milk it for all it is worth.

-John

[Larry Moore]

On 2012-04-11, John S. Wilkins <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>
> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

We are sorry to hear that - due allowances will be taken.


--
After all, there is no customer for DRM outside of the boardroom.
No one ever woke up and said, “Gosh, I wish there was a way I could
get an e-book that does less than the books I’m accustomed to.”
No one ever will. Cory Doctorow

[Paul Jamison]

"John S. Wilkins" <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote in message
news:1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au...

>I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>
> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
> very inattentive to detail).
>

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>
> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

> --
> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
> http://evolvingthoughts.net
> But al be that he was a philosophre,
> Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre
>

I am sorry to hear this. Take care of yourself, good sir, and heal.

Paul

[Free Lunch]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins)

wrote in talk.origins:

My best wishes on your quick recovery, but with storytelling like that
your pain was worth it to us...

[*Hemidactylus*]

On 04/11/2012 05:33 AM, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).

Uggg!!!

> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
> very inattentive to detail).

Forgive the pun, but are the cruciates excruciating :-)

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.

You never know. As the proud owner of a bad lower back I can tell you
what it's like to feel agonizing non-stop pain. It hasn't given me
problems lately, but there was a time when it was so severe I had to
dump myself out of bed onto the floor in the morning and slowly claw
myself up to standing one excruciating step at a time. After weeks of
this I thought it would never go away and then the despair and
frustration kicked in big time. That's the part you gotta wrap your head
around. It's hard to see light at the end of the tunnel when you're in
agony and barely mobile. Add the psychological effects of meds and
countermeds and you've gotta be careful to keep your head up.

And who knows the next time my back will start acting up again.

But since you're a teleological system just set the goal to conquer this
dragon and get past it one day at a time. At least you've got a place to
vent and have fun here.

And as my dad used to like to say "Getting old ain't for wussies."

> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

After enough morphine Frank the Bunny makes the obligatory appearance to
let you you you must save the world. Just remember to shoot him in the
eye when the time comes. You're probably in the mood for that.

--
*Hemidactylus*

[Richard Clayton]

On 11-Apr-12 5:33, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>

> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
> very inattentive to detail).
>

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>

> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

Yikes. My sympathies, and my best wishes for your recovery.

--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]
Richard Clayton
"I keep six honest serving men (they taught me all I knew); their names
are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who." — Rudyard Kipling

[*Hemidactylus*]

On 04/11/2012 03:15 PM, Boikat wrote:
> On Apr 11, 4:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>> danger!
>>
>> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>>
>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
>> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>
> I would say something like "I know how that feels" but I've never
> ripped tendons or muscles, and from your discription, I'd rather not!
> (Though I am going through a bit of sciatica at the moment. :( )

Ain't sciatica lovely?


--
*Hemidactylus*

[*Hemidactylus*]

Uppp! And they're at it again :-) One emergent property of this
digression is that it will help Wilkins forget about the pain at least
for a moment as he formulates his replies.

I would introduce the topic of contingency and ask if the tape were to
be rewound and played back 100 times with all possible alternative
events, how many times would Wilkins have taken the spill, but I doubt
he would want to go through that particular tape again.

I often wonder if I could have done something differently when I first
tweaked my lower back doing squats with a heavy barbell on my back. But
I was in a much higher risk situation than John just walking.

I do have a rather horrible story to recount about an unnerving gym
incident. I was doing weighted abdominal crunches one day long ago while
at the gym. A bodybuilder guy was working out with a buddy on the hack
squat machine (OK you know this is leading somewhere bad). The buddy was
pretty well built up top but his legs were average in my recollection.
Anyway I'm just crunching away trying to build my six pack and I hear
this strange popping sound then all of a sudden loud screams. The guy
doing hack squats had popped a tendon (can't recall which one...maybe
going from patella to quadriceps). I recall the injury being above the
knee. Me and a friend visited him in the hospital.

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00294

Pec tears are pretty nasty too.

My neighbor wehen I was growing up tripped on a sidewalk anomaly (maybe
an unpainted rampway) walking into a restaurant and injured herself badly.

Many times older people wind up breaking their hips while just doing
nothing more than walking. That's one good thing about John's injury,
that it wasn't to his hip. Small consolation, but still. It could be
much worse.


--
*Hemidactylus*

[AGWFacts]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>
> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>

> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
> very inattentive to detail).
>
> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>
> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

Holy fuck! And I'm sorry for your pain. But I bet the medical
bills will be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you are
not wealthy, you're better off demanding they let you die.


--
"Schools are to teach children what their parents don't know." -- Robert Carnegie

[*Hemidactylus*]

On 04/11/2012 08:19 AM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article<1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>,

> jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>
>> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
>> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
>> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
>> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.
>

> Oh, banderdash! And what you are doing with Grump -- remember this is
> a PG group.
>
> Why would you want a large economy size rabbit before the jet engine
> in your flat?
>
> Am I missing a cultural reference
>
James Beck already mentioned Donnie Darko. It was a sleeper movie that
probably didn't make a big splash in theaters (it might have coincided
roughly with 9-11 when people were glued to cable news). I saw it on HBO
and wound up buying the DVD. It's a cult film now.

It's a difficult movie, with a bunch of symbolism and stuff about time
travel and big existential questions and did I say Drew Barrymore?
Patrick Swayze was also in it as a creepy motivational speaker. Donnie
burns his house down. It's also a period piece set in October 1988.

This movie made me realize that Lorne Greene wrote short stories that
had bad influences on kids. Donnie also gives a backstory about the
Smurfs that's classic.

And President Roslin stars in it too.

--
*Hemidactylus*

[Richard Norman]

I am merely trying to test whether the "fucking grumpy"
(self-described) John Wilkins is noticeably different from the one we
all know and love.

As to the anecdote, I was told long ago that deep knee bends
(especially with weights) were absolute no-nos. If you bend your knee
beyond a right angle, you must never try to extend it when there is a
load.

[*Hemidactylus*]

You really want to get Wilkins and Norman riled up doncha?

--
*Hemidactylus*

[*Hemidactylus*]

On 04/11/2012 05:33 AM, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!
>
> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>

> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the

> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>

> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
> very inattentive to detail).
>
> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>

> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

Well you might be in the mood for warped humo(u)r. Did the staff ask you
to rate your pain on a scale from 1-10? Did it approach atomic 4 story
wedgie level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWs_tncktU

--
*Hemidactylus*

[*Hemidactylus*]

People do some really unwise things do try improving their looks like
anabolic steroids and tanning beds. One can exercise smartly, but
anytime you put a heavy load on or do repetitive movements there's a
chance of injury. Overtraining is definitely an issue in my experience.

But as seen from John's case just going from point A to point B is
hazardous. I haven't encountered walking onto ice all that many times in
my life, but I have landed on my backside walking onto a slippery patch
on more than one occasion. And I've slid getting out of the shower a
couple times, but never totally fell. Shower falls probably account for
more than their fair share of catastrophic injuries. Bad thing is that
bathroom doors open inwards. If someone has slipped and hurt themselves
in a bathroom the EMTs need to remove the door to get at them if they
are in the way of the door opening.

--
*Hemidactylus*

[Mitchell Coffey]

I like to watch.

Mitchell Coffey

[John S. Wilkins]

Richard Norman <r_s_n...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:13:57 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
> Wilkins) wrote:
>
> >Richard Norman <r_s_n...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> And I should add that I
> >> am looking more kindly at the notion of emergence as an explanation
> >> rather than a process or mechanism -- I think that is your position.
> >> You still have power in this world!
> >
> >It doesn't pay, though...
> >
> >My point about emergence is that it is an epistemic property not a
> >causal/ontological one.
>
> I think that is what I was trying to say -- minus the technical
> jargon.
>
> Whatever else, the world is the world and it does what it does for
> whatever reason. Had we been smart enough to collect the proper data
> and do the calculations, we could have computed that you would take
> that spill. Whether you could have then done something about it is
> another problematical question.

Had I or someone else known, that would change the causal relations, and
so the outcome might have been avoidable.

[John S. Wilkins]

*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> After enough morphine Frank the Bunny makes the obligatory appearance to
> let you you you must save the world. Just remember to shoot him in the
> eye when the time comes. You're probably in the mood for that.

I'll shoot him first and *then* save the world. Fucking bunnies. [I was
most aligned with Anyanka the Vengeance Demon in Buffy: I too hate
bunnies]

Thanks to all for the kind thoughts.

[John S. Wilkins]

Mitchell Coffey <mitchel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 11, 9:47 pm, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On 04/11/2012 01:08 PM, Mitchell Coffey wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 11, 11:13 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
> > >> nmp<n...@mail.please> wrote:
> > >>> John S. Wilkins wrote:
> >
> > >>>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee,
> >
> > >>> I can only imagine that. Must be a sickening experience. My sympathies.
> >
> > >>>> and by the time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse
> > >>>> than the accident above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one
> > >>>> asked "Should we call an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a
> > >>>> millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped in between sobs and screams (I am
> > >>>> nothing if not expressive when it comes to pain. If I have to be in
> > >>>> it, others must know that I am).
> >
> > >>> Evolutionary psychology probably has an "explanation" for that...
> >
> > >> Not nearly as good a one as "self-centred prick".
> >
> > > Which is merely an emergent property of the fact that our women are
> > > available all year around.
> >

> > > emergence
> >
> > You really want to get Wilkins and Norman riled up doncha?
>
> I like to watch.
>

Okay, but "emergence" is not anyone's safe word.

[John S. Wilkins]

I'm in Australia, and unemployed. So I pay nothing for world class
medical care.

[John S. Wilkins]

A 9 at most. My banana hammocks were unstretched.

[Boikat]

Oh, yes! And when it's not flaring up, I have a friend hit me in the
thigh with a baseball bat just to experiance the joy again. :P

Boikat

[wiki trix]

On Apr 11, 9:25 pm, AGWFacts <AGWFa...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S.

I don't think he is a US dude.

[Chris Zakes]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:13:55 +1000, an orbital mind-control laser
caused jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) to write:

>jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:22:18 -0700 (PDT), Mitchell Coffey
>> <mitchel...@gmail.com> wrote:

(snip)

>> >I know what it sounds like when you scream in agony
>>
>>
>> You've heard Wilkins scream in agony before? There's an untold story.
>
>Never ever choose a safe word longer than 10 letters...


Like this? http://xkcd.com/1039/

-Chris Zakes
Texas
--

When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its
subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to
know," the end result is tyranny and opression, no matter how holy the motives.

-John Lyle in "If This Goes On--" by Robert Heinlein

[Robert Grumbine]

In article <1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
> danger!

I've mentioned that most of my injuries have come by way of walking
rather than running. (Though I concede that the most spectacular
was from running.)

[trim]

> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
> years of rehab, and possible surgery.

The half year for my wrist was plenty long. But you're in
a country with a medical system, right? Three years of physical
therapy won't be fun. But PT people seem to be pretty nice
to be around.

> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

A sadly well-earned privilege.

Hoping that your recovery is faster and not as difficult as
you're expecting.



--
Robert Grumbine http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/ Science blog
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

[Walter Bushell]

In article <1kifzyz.y4bts51iqsdshN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>,

jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

> I'm in Australia, and unemployed. So I pay nothing for world class
> medical care.

Fortunate you are to live in a civilized country.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[James Beck]

On Apr 12, 3:19 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

Goes without saying. Screaming is impossible above that. Following 9.5
events you keen softly, quiver, and nod when the therapist offers you
ice. Ten is the rictus of death; the 600-pound surgical table you're
on bucks and rocks, walking around the room as you violently writhe
and convulse. Screaming resumes if you survive the shock, a mourning
for the parts that died. Following a fully conscious '10' event, you
can annoy sadistic therapists by placidly accepting the pain. Of
course, they can still win by taking you to 9.5 and making you beg for
ice, but most of them aren't that creative. Most of them...

[chris thompson]

On Apr 12, 3:19 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

> Mitchell Coffey <mitchell.cof...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 11, 9:47 pm, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 04/11/2012 01:08 PM, Mitchell Coffey wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 11, 11:13 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
> > > >> nmp<n...@mail.please>  wrote:
> > > >>> John S. Wilkins wrote:
>
> > > >>>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee,
>
> > > >>> I can only imagine that. Must be a sickening experience. My sympathies.
>
> > > >>>> and by the time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse
> > > >>>> than the accident above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one
> > > >>>> asked "Should we call an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a
> > > >>>> millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped in between sobs and screams (I am
> > > >>>> nothing if not expressive when it comes to pain. If I have to be in
> > > >>>> it, others must know that I am).
>
> > > >>> Evolutionary psychology probably has an "explanation" for that...
>
> > > >> Not nearly as good a one as "self-centred prick".
>
> > > > Which is merely an emergent property of the fact that our women are
> > > > available all year around.
>
> > > > emergence
>
> > > You really want to get Wilkins and Norman riled up doncha?
>
> > I like to watch.
>
> Okay, but "emergence" is not anyone's safe word.

Well. I do hope your emergence from this injury is as rapid and pain-
free as possible.

Chris

> --
> John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydneyhttp://evolvingthoughts.net

[Robert Grumbine]

In article <82d2ba71-9102-4d08...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>, Will in New Haven wrote:

> On Apr 11, 5:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>> danger!
>>
>> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>>

>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the

>> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>>

>> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
>> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
>> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
>> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
>> very inattentive to detail).
>>
>> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
>> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
>> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>>
>> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
>> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
>> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
>> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.
>

> To quote the fictional Istvan di Vega "Pain does not hurt; only fear
> hurts. I must be scared to death."
>
> Seriously, do what the therapists tell you but not one bit more. Pain
> is often prolonged by trying to do too much. And don't worry about
> being grumpy; nobody pays attention to you anyway.

It's a fine line. Do no more than they say (but tell them that
you feel like it). But also do no less than they say (but tell them
when and how it's overwhelming).

Either over or under is a problem. On the other hand, my pts at
least were pretty quick to notice that exercises weren't hurting
as much, and then to up the difficulty level. I suppose I should
thank them?

Grumpy is certainly par for the course. If there were no
grumps, snaps, snarls, winces, yelps at all, it'd probably be
a bad sign.

[Paul J Gans]

Good grief! I missed this thread yesterday and just noticed it
today. Be grumpy all you wish, we'll understand.

Indeed, having an arthritic knee (among other arthritic things) I
was recently offered a knee replacement and six months of rehab.
I was lucky and went for physical therapy which has fixed things
so that I can at least climb a few flights of stairs and walk about
a half mile before having to stop to let the pain pass.

I know I should sound helpful, but your situation sounds worse. All
I can do is wish you the best of luck and a quicker than expected
recovery.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins Mitchell Coffey <mitchel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Apr 11, 12:09 pm, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:22:18 -0700 (PDT), Mitchell Coffey
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> <mitchell.cof...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >I know what it sounds like when you scream in agony
>>
>> You've heard Wilkins scream in agony before?  There's an untold story.

>[snip]

>He stayed at our house for a week a few years ago. Frequently he
>played with our dog. Also, occasionally I cooked.

There are several things there that could be the ultimate cause
of the Fall...

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins John S. Wilkins <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:

>> I know what it sounds like when you scream in agony so I certainly
>> understand how much this must have hurt. I hope you have health
>> insurance, otherwise you're really screwed. I'm saying this because my
>> first thought - seriously - was that you could come occupy my son's
>> room while you recuperate. It slipped my mind for a moment that we're
>> still in the dark ages here.

>Thanks, but Australian medical care for the poor and unemployed is
>pretty good (I can't say enough good things about the ER staff). As it
>happens I do have health insurance for ancillary stuff.
>>
>> I suspect you'll get an email from Lorraine, 'cause she likes you even
>> more than I do. If there's anything we can do, just ask... OK, reword:
>> we'll keep asking you if there's anything we can do, because you won't
>> ask.

>Tell Lorraine I like her more than I do you too.

Now just a minute there. I've only met Lorraine once. Does
this mean I'm cut out and stuck with Mitch? Does he even
remember when I inhabited his house?...

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:
>Richard Norman wrote:

>> As others offered, do pay attention to the physical therapists, sadistic
>> beasts that they are. They really know what they are doing and why.

>Yes, and do say to them "Thank you, sir/madam, please hurt me some more."

>It makes them grin.

Gee, mine tells me to stop when it hurts. Turns out I have to stop often...

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins Richard Norman <r_s_n...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:13:57 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
>Wilkins) wrote:

>>Richard Norman <r_s_n...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> And I should add that I
>>> am looking more kindly at the notion of emergence as an explanation
>>> rather than a process or mechanism -- I think that is your position.
>>> You still have power in this world!
>>
>>It doesn't pay, though...
>>
>>My point about emergence is that it is an epistemic property not a
>>causal/ontological one.

>I think that is what I was trying to say -- minus the technical
>jargon.

>Whatever else, the world is the world and it does what it does for
>whatever reason. Had we been smart enough to collect the proper data
>and do the calculations, we could have computed that you would take
>that spill. Whether you could have then done something about it is
>another problematical question.

Are you implying that there is "free won't"?

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>,

> jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

>Oh, noes! As a preincarnate of yours, I'm due for the same fate in my
>future!

Yeah, but you'll get ticketed for blocking the sidewalk...

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> wrote:

>On 11 Apr, 11:33, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

>> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
>> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
>> years of rehab, and possible surgery.

>Get well soon.
>My grandmother had one of her knee completely replaced with a
>prosthetic knee and she walks quite well for an 85 year old (no
>walking aids), so don't despair.

Yeah, but most knee replacements are for bone problems. Likely
hers was as well. But she had the appropriate muscles and tendons.
John seems to have torn them. Or were they previously weakened by
Mitch's cooking?

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins *Hemidactylus* <ecph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 04/11/2012 03:15 PM, Boikat wrote:

>> On Apr 11, 4:33 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>>> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>>> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>>> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>>> danger!
>>>
>>> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>>> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>>> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>>> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>>> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>>>
>>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
>>> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>>> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>>> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>>> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>>> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>>

>> I would say something like "I know how that feels" but I've never
>> ripped tendons or muscles, and from your discription, I'd rather not!
>> (Though I am going through a bit of sciatica at the moment. :( )

>Ain't sciatica lovely?

Yet another example of intelligent design...

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins AGWFacts <AGWF...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.

>Wilkins) wrote:

>> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>> danger!
>>
>> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>>
>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
>> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>>

>> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
>> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
>> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
>> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
>> very inattentive to detail).
>>

>> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
>> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
>> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>>

>> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
>> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the
>> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going
>> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.

>Holy fuck! And I'm sorry for your pain. But I bet the medical
>bills will be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you are
>not wealthy, you're better off demanding they let you die.

Calm down. He's not in the US.

[James Beck]

On Apr 12, 1:23 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> In talk.origins AGWFacts <AGWFa...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S.

Yes. Life is so haphazard. Dick Cheney could shoot him for this in
Texas.

[AGWFacts]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:19:20 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.

Please marry me! I'm willing to relocate to Australia.

My medical bill for ten days in the hospital, where I nearly died
from pneumonia, was over $85,000 and it will take me about 20
years to pay it. My estate takes on the debt when I die.

[Mitchell Coffey]

> I don't think he is a US dude.

He lives in one of those socialist Muslim atheist countries.

Mitchel

[AGWFacts]

> I don't think he is a US dude.

Ah, thank you. I keep forgetting there is a whole other part of
the planet than the USA.

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Apr 12, 3:19 am, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
> AGWFacts <AGWFa...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:33:04 +1000, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S.

In the United State, health insurance for the poor, much of the
unemployed, much of the working class and anyone with a a preexisting
condition, is ER. This was changing under law, but our Supreme Court
is about to pull a Bush v. Gore on it.

Mitchell

[Bob Berger]

In article <1kiej18.qib1hm1qureyoN%jo...@wilkins.id.au>, John S. Wilkins says...

OUCH! I hope it either gets better faster, or there's a liquor store near by (or
both).

>Thought you all should know why I am going to be very fucking grumpy
>over the next little while.

We should. Please tell us why. :-)

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
<ven...@virgilio.it>:

>On 11 Apr, 16:04, nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:
>> Mike Dworetsky wrote:
>> > *We were walking on the main path, watching teenagers jumping down from
>> > the tops of the high rocks; not a scratch or bruise on any of them.
>>
>> Young people are annoying, aren't they. Think they are invulnerable, and
>> what's worse, they often are.
>
>I managed to damage my articular cartilages of both knees in two
>separate accidents (both during exercise) before I turned 25. They
>seem to have healed now (I'm 29) but I'm always afraid of doing
>anything that puts my knees under intense mechanical stress.

Knees are especially vulnerable to stress; it's no accident
that martial arts disabling strikes frequently involve
strikes to the knee. I'd guess that vulnerability is one of
the inherent problems associated with the ongoing transition
to full bipedalism.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless

[Larry Moore]

Not the worst reason for marriage, all considered.

You are now on record before witnesses and we await his reply
with some interest. How do you feel about long engagements?

--
For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to every
one that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not.
Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still.
John Maynard Keynes

[Mike L]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:30:21 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

>*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> After enough morphine Frank the Bunny makes the obligatory appearance to
>> let you you you must save the world. Just remember to shoot him in the
>> eye when the time comes. You're probably in the mood for that.
>
>I'll shoot him first and *then* save the world. Fucking bunnies. [I was
>most aligned with Anyanka the Vengeance Demon in Buffy: I too hate
>bunnies]
>
>Thanks to all for the kind thoughts.

Add mine, too. I've just seen your original message quoted upthread.
It sounds absolutely foul: I wonder if you have a case for cheering
yourself up a bit by suing the council.

--
Mike.

[John S. Wilkins]

It would fail. There are hundreds of thousands of these depressions in
the footpaths around Melbourne. I can hardly say I didn't expect them.

[John S. Wilkins]

Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2012-04-12, AGWFacts <AGWF...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:19:20 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
> > Wilkins) wrote:
> >
> >> AGWFacts <AGWF...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
> >>
>
> > Please marry me! I'm willing to relocate to Australia.
> >
> > My medical bill for ten days in the hospital, where I nearly died
> > from pneumonia, was over $85,000 and it will take me about 20
> > years to pay it. My estate takes on the debt when I die.
> >
>
> Not the worst reason for marriage, all considered.
>
> You are now on record before witnesses and we await his reply
> with some interest. How do you feel about long engagements?

I'm making a presumption about AGW's gender, but gay marriage is not
legal here.

[Free Lunch]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:22:28 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com>
wrote in talk.origins:

Yes, if there had been an intelligent designer, he would have a billion
people lined up to sue him for malpractice.

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT), the following
>appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
><ven...@virgilio.it>:

>>On 11 Apr, 16:04, nmp <n...@mail.please> wrote:
>>> Mike Dworetsky wrote:
>>> > *We were walking on the main path, watching teenagers jumping down from
>>> > the tops of the high rocks; not a scratch or bruise on any of them.
>>>
>>> Young people are annoying, aren't they. Think they are invulnerable, and
>>> what's worse, they often are.
>>
>>I managed to damage my articular cartilages of both knees in two
>>separate accidents (both during exercise) before I turned 25. They
>>seem to have healed now (I'm 29) but I'm always afraid of doing
>>anything that puts my knees under intense mechanical stress.

>Knees are especially vulnerable to stress; it's no accident
>that martial arts disabling strikes frequently involve
>strikes to the knee. I'd guess that vulnerability is one of
>the inherent problems associated with the ongoing transition
>to full bipedalism.

I claim that it is important evidence concerning intelligent
design.

[Paul J Gans]

In talk.origins John S. Wilkins <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:

>Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On 2012-04-12, AGWFacts <AGWF...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:19:20 +1000, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
>> > Wilkins) wrote:
>> >
>> >> AGWFacts <AGWF...@1800reaklity.com> wrote:
>> >>
>>
>> > Please marry me! I'm willing to relocate to Australia.
>> >
>> > My medical bill for ten days in the hospital, where I nearly died
>> > from pneumonia, was over $85,000 and it will take me about 20
>> > years to pay it. My estate takes on the debt when I die.
>> >
>>
>> Not the worst reason for marriage, all considered.
>>
>> You are now on record before witnesses and we await his reply
>> with some interest. How do you feel about long engagements?

>I'm making a presumption about AGW's gender, but gay marriage is not
>legal here.

What about the union of two morose guys?

[Paul J Gans]

You can't sue god for an act of god.

[Mark Isaak]

On 4/11/12 3:34 PM, John Stockwell wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:33:04 AM UTC-6, John S. Wilkins wrote:
>> I have long said that exercise is dangerous: that 100% of all those I
>> know who are physically active injure themselves. But I never expected
>> that just frigging *walking* could be so problematic and fraught with
>> danger!
>>
>> I was on my way to meet some folk for lunch (Lygon Street, Carlton, a
>> famed Melbourne eating place), when I stepped in a slight depression on
>> the footpath and rolled my left ankle. This happenes a lot to me, since
>> I squashed my left foot in a motorcycle accident 30+ years ago, but I
>> usually recover quickly. This time I didn't.
>>
>> As I fell I heard, and felt, a loud "snap" in my left knee, and by the
>> time I hit the ground I was screaming in agony (worse than the accident
>> above), Lovely bystanders came to my aid and one asked "Should we call
>> an ambulance?" I didn't hesitate for even a millisecond. "Yes!" I gasped
>> in between sobs and screams (I am nothing if not expressive when it
>> comes to pain. If I have to be in it, others must know that I am).
>>

>> So, after five hours of morphine, x-rays and solicitous ER nurses,
>> doctors, paramedics and radiographers, I discover that I have ruputred
>> my anterior and medial cruciate ligaments, and the meniscus (did I get
>> those names right? I can't look it up now, as the morphine is making me
>> very inattentive to detail).
>>
>> Short story: I am now unable to walk for at least six weeks, and
>> probably will never walk properly again. I can look forward to three
>> years of rehab, and possible surgery.
>>
>> This is a perfect outcome to cap off the last 18 months. I expect that
>> my flat will be hit by a falling jet engine soon, and I won't get the

>> five foot scary rabbit first. Thought you all should know why I am going

>> to be very fucking grumpy over the next little while.
>
>

> Damn. Philosophy is more dangerous than I thought.

Surely you are familiar with falls being a fruit of the knowledge of
good and evil. Perhaps Wilkins accidentally stumbled into the domain of
ethics.

> Rest well, and milk it for all it is worth.

My sentiments too.

Also, Wilkins, don't believe the bit about never walking properly again.
You will just have to relearn how, is all.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume