Devils Tower: Water or Magic?
and...@my-deja.com
other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
sides. Details are at
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
er.html
Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
mile deep in water. Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
still runs nearby.
Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
Andy
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Elmer Bataitis
> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> sides. Details are at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html
> Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
> mile deep in water.
What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
and...@my-deja.com
It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
well.
Boikat
>
> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> sides. Details are at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html
>
> Easy to describe, impossible to explain
"impossible" for a moron to understand, you mean.
"-- unless the area was once a
> mile deep in water.
Wrong. Where did you pull that one out of (as if
anyone needed to guess)?
> Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> unique columns formed from a cooling process.
Yes.
> Water best explains the
> cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
> in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above).
How does that better explain it? Just because you
pulled that explanation out of your arse? Because
it's different than the accepted theory? Sorry,
you have to present something better than that.
> A river
> still runs nearby.
>
Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
near by".
> Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods.
No, You utter a falsehood again. Local flooding
even on an enormous scale is not impossible
(Channeled Scab lands...), however, Geologist have
found no evidence to support *THE* Global Flood of
Genesis.
> Do they
> oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
Yes idiot, because for the columns to form in
basalt, the basalt has to cool *slowly* and
*uniformly*. Water would not have allowed this to
happen. Also, if you'd bother to look in a
geology book, you would find that lava that is
extruded under water forms distinctive shapes
called "Pillow Lava". Look up some pictures of
the lava formations located in the mid Atlantic
rift zone. let us know if you see columnar basalt
formations.
Boikat
Boikat
>
By the way, you still need to work on that reading
comprehension problem.
> Devils Tower is a mile-high,
No, idiot. From the article cited:
"Devils Tower rises 1,253 feet (382 m) above the
nearby Belle Fouche River."
How many feet in a mile andy?
> pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> other mountains nearby.
That is interesting. You don't know very much
about the area, do you?
> It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> sides. Details are at
Details you apparently are completely unaware of.
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html
>
[Pseudo-scientific jerking-ff snipped]
Boikat
Nell P. Wright
>Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
>sides. Details are at
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
>er.html
>
>Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
>mile deep in water.
Oh? And exactly how does this explain it?
> Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
>unique columns formed from a cooling process.
Unlikely. There is no evidence of volcanic activity anywhere in the
area. No volcanic ash, no lava flows, no debris...nada.
> Water best explains the
>cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
>in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
>still runs nearby.
According to everything I've read about it, the Tower was formed by an
igneous intrusion into sedimentary rock, and the molten rock which
formed it did not even surface. Geologists may not agree on exactly
how it formed, but they do agree on that much.
Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the softer
sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is now
visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself is
eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
>
>Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
>instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
>oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
Yup, cause the evidence doesn't bear it out.
Nell P. Wright
Boikat
>
> In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
> > > sides. Details are at
> > >
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html
> >
> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
> a
> > > mile deep in water.
> >
> > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
>
> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
But it still rains. Imagine that.
>
> At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
You might want to do that. But first, why don't
you open a geology book?
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall.
The erosion pattern is due to the fracture
pattern, not "currents".
> The
> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> well.
The columns were not form due to rapid cooling.
Rapid cooling due to "flood water" would have
caused the uniform fractures. As far as lava
extruded under water, look up "pillow lava".
Boikat
marcof...@my-deja.com
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> well.
Okay, since you're the expert neo-Neptunist here, explain it already.
jmonrad
Nell P. Wright
Rapid cooling? Where did you get *that*? It cooled very slowly,
otherwise those columns wouldn't have formed like that.
Nell P. Wright
and...@my-deja.com
Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
all
> > sides. Details are at
> >
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > er.html
> >
> > Easy to describe, impossible to explain
>
> "impossible" for a moron to understand, you mean.
Classic Darwinian namecalling there -- as recognizable as a heavy
accent.
[snip]
> > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> > unique columns formed from a cooling process.
>
> Yes.
So far so good ... until someone mentions "flood" ...
> > Water best explains the
> > cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
greater
> > in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above).
>
> How does that better explain it? Just because you
> pulled that explanation out of your arse? Because
> it's different than the accepted theory? Sorry,
> you have to present something better than that.
There's that trademark evolutionist opposition to any large flood!!!
Multiple small floods are OK, but not a large flood!
> > A river
> > still runs nearby.
> >
>
> Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
> near by".
And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
> > Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> > instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods.
>
> No, You utter a falsehood again. Local flooding
> even on an enormous scale is not impossible
> (Channeled Scab lands...), however, Geologist have
> found no evidence to support *THE* Global Flood of
> Genesis.
Ah, the compound negative that is so frequently used by Darwinists.
Remember Gould's insistence that this theory is *not non-Darwinian*?
Here we have the claim that an enormous flood is "not impossible"!
Saying that without the negatives is too risky, eh?
> > Do they
> > oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>
> Yes idiot, because for the columns to form in
> basalt, the basalt has to cool *slowly* and
> *uniformly*. Water would not have allowed this to
> happen. Also, if you'd bother to look in a
> geology book, you would find that lava that is
> extruded under water forms distinctive shapes
> called "Pillow Lava". Look up some pictures of
> the lava formations located in the mid Atlantic
> rift zone. let us know if you see columnar basalt
> formations.
It's not lava. In fact, the cite I provided expressly stated that it
was only "possibly[] an erosional remnant of a volcanic neck."
Apparently you have no explanation for the erosion pattern so visible
on Devils Tower. Chalk that up to pure chance and "eons of time"???
rich hammett
> In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
>> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>> > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
>> > sides. Details are at
>> >
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
>> > er.html
>>
>> > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
> a
>> > mile deep in water.
>>
>> What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
> At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall.
"plainly"? Are you arguing by assertion, again? Could you explain the
technical differences between rapid, diluvial erosion, and slow erosion
caused by precipitation?
rich
> The
> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> well.
> Andy
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
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/ hnoa...@eng.spamauburn.edu
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\ audacity, anticipation, artifice, teamwork, elegance,
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scot...@my-deja.com
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
> oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>
You'll have to add the Catholic Church to your "them" list, Andy.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04702a.htm
III. UNIVERSALITY OF THE DELUGE
The Biblical account ascribes some kind of a universality to the Flood.
But it may have been geographically universal, or it may have been only
anthropologically universal. In other words, the Flood may have covered
the whole earth, or it may have destroyed all men, covering only a
certain part of the earth. Till about the seventeenth century, it was
generally believed that the Deluge had been geographically universal,
and this opinion is defended even in our days by some conservative
scholars (cf. Kaulen in Kirchenlexikon). But two hundred years of
theological and scientific study devoted to the question have thrown so
much light on it that we may now defend the following conclusions:
(1) The geographical universality of the Deluge may be safely
abandoned.
Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition, nor
again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to the
opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth.
(a) The words of the original text, rendered "earth" in our version,
signify "land" as well as "earth"; in fact, "land" appears to have been
their primary meaning, and this meaning fits in admirably with Gen.,
iv, v, and Gen., x; why not adhere to this meaning also in Gen., vi-ix,
or the Flood story. Why not read, the waters "filled all on the face of
the land", "all flesh was destroyed that moved in the land", "all
things wherein there is the breath of life in the land died", "all the
high mountains under the whole heaven (corresponding to the land) were
covered"? The primary meaning of the inspired text urges therefore a
universality of the flood covering the whole land or region in which
Noe lived, but not the whole earth.
(b) As to the cogency of the proof from tradition for the geographical
universality of the Flood, it must be remembered that very few of the
Fathers touched upon this question ex professo. Among those who do so
there are some who restrict the Deluge to certain parts of the earth's
surface without incurring the blame of offending against tradition.
The earthly paradise, e.g., was exempted by many, irrespective of its
location on the top of a high mountain or elsewhere;
the same must be said of the place in which Mathusala must have lived
during the Flood according to the Septuagint reading;
St. Augustine knows of writers who exempted the mountain Olympus from
the Flood, though he himself does not agree with them;
Pseudo-Justin hesitatingly rejects the opinion of those who restrict
the Flood to the parts of the earth actually inhabited by men;
Cajetan revived the opinion that the Flood did not cover Olympus and
other high mountains, believing that Genesis spoke only of the
mountains under the aerial heaven;
Tostatus sees a figure of speech in the expression of the Bible which
implies the universality of the Flood; at any rate, he exempts the
earthly Paradise from the Deluge, since Henoch had to be saved.
If the Fathers had considered the universality of the Flood as part of
the body of ecclesiastical tradition, or of the deposit of faith, they
would have defended it more vigorously. It is true that the
Congregation of the Index condemned Vossius's treatise "De Septuaginta
Interpretibus" in which he defended, among other doctrines, the view
that the Flood covered only the inhabited part of the earth; but
theologians of great weight maintained that the work was condemned on
account of its Protestant author, and not on account of its doctrine.
(c) There are also certain scientific considerations which oppose the
view that the Flood was geographically universal. Not that science
opposes any difficulty insuperable to the power of God; but it draws
attention to a number of most extraordinary, if not miraculous
phenomena involved in the admission of a geographically universal
Deluge.
First, no such geological traces can be found as ought to have been
left by a universal Deluge; for the catastrophe connected with the
beginning of the ice-age, or the geological deluge, must not be
connected with the Biblical.
Secondly, the amount of water required by a universal Deluge, as
described in the Bible, cannot be accounted for by the data furnished
in the Biblical account. If the surface of the earth, in round numbers,
amounts to 510,000,000 square kilometres, and if the elevation of the
highest mountains reaches about 9000 metres, the water required by the
Biblical Flood, if it be universal, amounts to about 4,600,000,000
cubic kilometres. Now, a forty days' rain, ten times more copious than
the most violent rainfall known to us, will raise the level of the sea
only about 800 metres; since the height to be attained is about 9000
metres, there is still a gap to be filled by unknown sources amounting
to a height of more than 8000 metres, in order to raise the water to
the level of the greatest mountains.
Thirdly, if the Biblical Deluge was geographically universal, the sea
water and the fresh water would mix to such an extent that neither the
marine animals nor the fresh-water animals could have lived in the
mixture without a miracle.
Fourthly, there are serious difficulties connected with the animals in
the ark, if the Flood was geographically universal: How were they
brought to Noe from the remote regions of the earth in which they
lived? How could eight persons take care of such an array of beasts?
Where did they obtain the food necessary for all the animals? How could
the arctic animals live with those of the torrid zone for a whole year
and under the same roof?
No Catholic commentator will repudiate an explanation merely for fear
of having to admit a miracle; but no Catholic has a right to admit
Biblical miracles which are not well attested either by Scripture or
tradition. What is more, there are traces in the Biblical Flood story
which favour a limited extent of the catastrophe: Noe could have known
the geographical universality of the Deluge only by revelation; still
the Biblical account appears to have been written by an eye-witness. If
the Flood had been universal, the water would have had to fall from the
height of the mountains in India to the level of those in Armenia on
which the ark rested, i.e. about 11,500 feet, within the space of a few
days. The fact that the dove is said to have found "the waters . . .
upon the whole earth", and that Noe "saw that the face of the earth was
dried", leaves the impression that the inspired writer uses the
word "earth" in the restricted sense of "land". Attention has been
drawn also to the "bough of an olive tree, with green leaves" carried
by the dove in her mouth on her second return to the ark.
Scott
ghos...@my-deja.com
"Nell P. Wright" <wrigh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
>
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_to
w
> >er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
> >rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> >well.
>
> Rapid cooling? Where did you get *that*? It cooled very slowly,
> otherwise those columns wouldn't have formed like that.
>
> Nell P. Wright
Don't confuse us with facts dear Nell. Let's rather focus on the wishful
thinking present in Andy's "argument".
and...@my-deja.com
>
> >Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> >other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
all
> >sides. Details are at
>
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_to
w
> >er.html
> >
> >Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
> >mile deep in water.
>
> Oh? And exactly how does this explain it?
The erosion matches the effect of water currents as though the rock
were submerged.
> > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> >unique columns formed from a cooling process.
>
> Unlikely. There is no evidence of volcanic activity anywhere in the
> area. No volcanic ash, no lava flows, no debris...nada.
So you disagree with Boikat about this.
Water resolves your objection, however -- the ash, lava flows, debris,
etc., would have simply been washed away in a flood.
> > Water best explains the
> >cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
greater
> >in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
> >still runs nearby.
>
> According to everything I've read about it, the Tower was formed by an
> igneous intrusion into sedimentary rock, and the molten rock which
> formed it did not even surface. Geologists may not agree on exactly
> how it formed, but they do agree on that much.
That looks like little more than "magic" as an explanation. In fact,
most geologists agree with Boikat that this was part of a volcano.
> Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the softer
> sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is now
> visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself is
> eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
"Don't need no stinking flood to explain it." That's a classic!
Archie Bunker could not have put it better.
It's the pattern of erosion that strongly suggests water currents
around the rock. Rain, snow, sun, some random wind doesn't cause that
erosion pattern in the rock.
> >Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> >instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
> >oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>
> Yup, cause the evidence doesn't bear it out.
Anything but a "stinking flood" that *them* might agree with???
Alan Barclay
>In article <3A53E9C5...@bellsouth.net>,
> Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
>> near by".
>
>And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
Eroded volcanic plugs aren't terribly rare, so the answer is several
actually. Another famous example is Edinburgh Castle Rock in Edinburgh,
Scotland. The erosion in this case was glacial, so there are only three
sides exposed, with the fourth side a gentle ramp down to the base level.
This is easy to explain using conventional geology, the ice eroded away
the material in the direction it was travelling, and deposited it after
the Rock, but it's impossible to explain by a flood.
and...@my-deja.com
marcof...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <930ote$al1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
> > rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> > well.
>
> Okay, since you're the expert neo-Neptunist here, explain it already.
A massive flood likely carried away all the volcanic remnants and
eroded the rock. From the picture at the site above, you can even see
the direction in which the water primarily flowed.
No other explanation is even remotely plausible. Feel free to look
through the other postings here yourself. Their only significance is
that many evolutionists oppose the possibility of an enormous flood at
all costs, simply because their adversaries support one.
Andy
ghos...@my-deja.com
> > > cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
> greater
> > > in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above).
> > How does that better explain it? Just because you
> > pulled that explanation out of your arse? Because
> > it's different than the accepted theory? Sorry,
> > you have to present something better than that.
>
> There's that trademark evolutionist opposition to any large flood!!!
> Multiple small floods are OK, but not a large flood!
You failed to address why it better explains it. Your non sequitur
response is duely noted.
Large floods are also ok, the Washington Scablands make for a great
example. There is plenty of supporting evidence of such a flood. There
is however no evidence of a global flood, worse, many data show the
opposite.
> > > A river
> > > still runs nearby.
> > >
> >
> > Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
> > near by".
>
> And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
Really? Btw it was not water but a glacier that caused the erosion. But
you still have not addressed why water explains it better.
> > > Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> > > instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods.
> >
> > No, You utter a falsehood again. Local flooding
> > even on an enormous scale is not impossible
> > (Channeled Scab lands...), however, Geologist have
> > found no evidence to support *THE* Global Flood of
> > Genesis.
> Ah, the compound negative that is so frequently used by Darwinists.
Geologists have found no evidence to support a global flood of the
extent of Genesis. What's wrong with that statement?
> Remember Gould's insistence that this theory is *not non-Darwinian*?
Non sequitur.
> Here we have the claim that an enormous flood is "not impossible"!
> Saying that without the negatives is too risky, eh?
An enormous flood is indeed not impossible, a flood the extent of the
Genesis flood however is 1) very unlikely 2) not supported by geological
evidence 3) contradicted by geological evidence.
> > > Do they
> > > oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
> >
> > Yes idiot, because for the columns to form in
> > basalt, the basalt has to cool *slowly* and
> > *uniformly*. Water would not have allowed this to
> > happen. Also, if you'd bother to look in a
> > geology book, you would find that lava that is
> > extruded under water forms distinctive shapes
> > called "Pillow Lava". Look up some pictures of
> > the lava formations located in the mid Atlantic
> > rift zone. let us know if you see columnar basalt
> > formations.
>
> It's not lava. In fact, the cite I provided expressly stated that it
> was only "possibly[] an erosional remnant of a volcanic neck."
So it is not lava? What is it then? So how did this form if it was not
lava? The columns surely require a uniform cooling. Under water it would
have formed pillows.
> Apparently you have no explanation for the erosion pattern so visible
> on Devils Tower. Chalk that up to pure chance and "eons of time"???
There are a few problems with your assertion
1) It is up to you to explain the erosion pattern on the devils tower.
Your claim that it is best explained by a flood is hardly evidence.
2) Explanations (better than yours) exist to explain the Tower and the
erosion patterns found.
I suggest that you spend some time on formulating a mechanism that is
not easily contradicted by the available evidence. And when you are
done, you might show why your explanation is better than other
explanations.
Good luck
catshark
> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
> > > sides. Details are at
> > >
>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html
> >
> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was
once
> a
> > > mile deep in water.
> >
> > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
>
> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
>
If you bothered to read the accompanying text, you would have seen that
it is dated at 40,000,000 years old. Even a little yearly rain over
40M years is a *lot* of water. (Forget climate changes!) Oh, but I
forgot, all scientists are in on this vast conspiracy, so no doubt that
dating is off by many magnitudes!
> At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> well.
>
Since you are so big on "authorities" (remember poor old Dr. Smith?),
you will let us in on your expertise in erotion morphology, won't you?
Or at least on how you came to the conclusion that currents caused what
is seen in the photos.
> Andy
>
--
J. Pieret
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worthwhile
chewing through the leather straps.
ghos...@my-deja.com
> on Devils Tower. Chalk that up to pure chance and "eons of time"???
Now back to science:
http://www.nps.gov/deto/first50.htm
There have been several theories explaining the Devil's Tower. The most
recent one, based on the available data suggests that 60 million years
ago (sounds pre-flood to me :-)) masses of "lava-like" material welled
up and formed the Devils Tower.
"Over the years there have been changing theories concerning the origin
of Devils Tower. The latest belief, based upon the most extensive
geological field work yet done, probably will be supported by further
study.
Briefly stated, about 60 million years ago when the Rocky Mountains
were formed, there was similar upheaval which produced the Black Hills
and associated mountains. Great masses of very hot, plastic material
from within welled up into the earth's crust. In some instances it
reached the surface to produce lava flows or spectacular explosive
volcanoes which spread layers of ash many feet thick over a vast part of
the Great Plains.
In the Devils Tower vicinity, this slowly upsurging, heated earth
substance spent its force before reaching the surface, cooling and
becoming solid within the upper layers of the earth. During this process
probably a very large mass of it, many miles across, moved within a few
thousand feet of the surface. Before it cooled, fingers or branches of
pasty-textured material moved upward along lines of weakness in the
rock layers near the surface of the earth. Some of these pinched out,
while others formed local masses of varying size and shape. Devils
Tower and the nearby Missouri Buttes, as we know them today,
represent some of these offshoot bodies which solidified in pretty much
their present size and form at depths of possibly one to two thousand
feet beneath the surface. The phonolite porphyry, as the rock of Devils
Tower and the Missouri Buttes is known, is very hard."
Now the erosion part:
"During subsequent tens of millions of years, erosion has stripped away
the softer rock layers in which these masses formed, leaving them
standing as dominant landmarks. The process continues today as the
Belle Fourche and Little Missouri Rivers and their tributary streams,
aided by freezing, thawing, rain drops, and the other processes that
break down the rock, continue to alter the face of the earth in this
region."
or
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/LivingWith/VolcanicPast/national_parks_monumen
ts.html
Devils Tower:
Although Devils Tower has long been a prominent landmark in northeastern
Wyoming, the origin of the mammoth rock obelisk remains somewhat
obscure. Geologists agree that Devils Tower formed from molten rock
forced upwards from deep within the earth. Debate continues, however, as
to whether the rock cooled underground or whether Devils Tower magma
reached the surface. Current research supports the conclusion that
Devils Tower was not a volcano, but was injected between sedimentary
rock layers and cooled underground. The characteristic furrowed columns
are the result of contraction which occurred during the cooling of the
magma. Geologic estimates have placed the age of Devils Tower at greater
than 50 million years, although it is likely that erosion uncovered the
rock formations only one or two million years ago.
Glacial erosion
http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/govdocs/text/greatplains/text.html
"The uplift and volcanism that formed these mountains took place before
the streams began to cut downward and segment the Great Plains. The
mountains had been greatly dissected before the advent of the Great Ice
Age, when alpine glaciers formed on the Castle and the Crazy Mountains
and flowed down some of the stream-cut valleys. Alpine glacial features
such as cirques, in the high parts of the mountains, and glacially
modified U-shaped valleys (fig. 24) are impressive evidence of this
glaciation."
and...@my-deja.com
scot...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <930l8h$7nl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> > instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
> > oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
> >
>
> You'll have to add the Catholic Church to your "them" list, Andy.
Interesting cite, Scott. It suggests, in its conclusion that you did
not post, that the Catholic Church supports the Biblical flood account
more than I expected:
"Moreover, the Fathers regarded the ark and the Flood as types of
baptism and of the Church; this view they entertained not as a private
opinion, but as a development of the doctrine contained in I Peter,
iii, 20 sq. Hence, the typical character of both ark and Flood belongs
to the "matters of faith and morals" in which the Tridentine and the
Vatican Councils oblige all Catholics to follow the interpretation of
the Church."
However, the Church's encyclopedia uses a different linguistic
translation of the flood to limit it in geography and humans. (I am
not aware of any Encyclicals on this issue, in contrast to the
evolution issue.)
But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility of
an enormous flood. If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a great
Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
an enormous flood.
Andy
Adam Marczyk
> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> sides. Details are at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html
>
> Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
> mile deep in water.
Not at all. In fact, the very site you cited gives an alternative and much
more plausible explanation.
Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
> cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
> in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
> still runs nearby.
Many people have already pointed this out, but I will again. Need lots of
sledgehammer blows to drive in that spike, you know. If the Devil's Tower
had been submerged at the time of its formation, it would be made of pillow
lava, the only type of igneous rock that forms underwater. It isn't.
As for erosion patterns, I honestly have no idea whatsoever where you get
that. It would have to have been some very strange water currents that
formed those remarkably straight vertical lines.
> Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods.
Er, no. I have no objection to massive floods. The Black Sea one was
probably pretty big by anyone's standards. But the idea of a global flood as
depicted in Genesis is silly. Do you actually have quotes from any
evolutionists saying they categorically oppose the idea of all huge floods,
or did you just make that part up yourself?
> Do they oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
This one certainly does.
> Andy
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
--
When I am dreaming,
I don't know if I'm truly asleep, or if I'm awake.
When I get up,
I don't know if I'm truly awake, or if I'm still dreaming...
--Forest for the Trees, "Dream"
To send e-mail, change "excite" to "hotmail"
Gyudon Z
It may well have been. But it remains an igneous intrusion into sedimentary
rock.
>> Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the softer
>> sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is now
>> visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself is
>> eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
>"Don't need no stinking flood to explain it." That's a classic!
>Archie Bunker could not have put it better.
>
>It's the pattern of erosion that strongly suggests water currents
>around the rock. Rain, snow, sun, some random wind doesn't cause that
>erosion pattern in the rock.
What, you mean the "fluted column" appearance?
Andy, you may want to ask yourself why columns were designed with flutes to
begin with.
You may also want to remember that too much water will overwhelm the fluting
and wear the surface fairly smooth.
>> >Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
>> >instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
>> >oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>> Yup, cause the evidence doesn't bear it out.
>Anything but a "stinking flood" that *them* might agree with???
There is no evidence that it took miles of water to do this. In fact, miles of
water would have carved horizontal (or at least diagonal) grooves into it, as
it flowed down into the oceans that you seem to think can be created by water
pressure.
The oceans would have to have formed almost instantaneously for the
hypothetical floodwaters to have run *straight down*.
Rain, on the other hand...
"Between true science and erroneous doctrines, ignorance is in the middle."
Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
catshark
> Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
> > > sides. Details are at
> > >
>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html
> > >
> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain
> >
> > "impossible" for a moron to understand, you mean.
>
> Classic Darwinian namecalling there -- as recognizable as a heavy
> accent.
>
> [snip]
> > > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> > > unique columns formed from a cooling process.
> >
> > Yes.
>
> So far so good ... until someone mentions "flood" ...
>
And there is the *nub* of your problem. All you do is *mention* flood,
as if that alone is any reason, in and of itself, to take it
seriously. Try giving any reason to believe in a global flood except
fantastical explanations for features which have otherwise normal
explainations that do not require amazing amounts of disappearing water
or an unexplained smooth geography.
>
> It's not lava. In fact, the cite I provided expressly stated that it
> was only "possibly[] an erosional remnant of a volcanic neck."
Another nub of your problem. The site also describes it as a "steep-
sided igneous body" "made of magma that solidified at a shallow
level". Try reading the parts you don't like as well as the ones you do
(though in this case I can't fathom why - since when did "possibly"
equal "not").
>
> Apparently you have no explanation for the erosion pattern so visible
> on Devils Tower. Chalk that up to pure chance and "eons of time"???
>
I hate to repeat myself, but exactly which pattern are you refering
to? The vertical columns? And just how does a flood cause those?
> Andy
>
--
J. Pieret
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worthwhile
chewing through the leather straps.
LStew36183
Mashed potatoes. Richard Dreyful. That was too
easy....
okbye
rich hammett
> "Nell P. Wright" <wrigh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> On 3 Jan 2001 20:56:33 -0500, and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>> >other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
>> >sides. Details are at
>>
>>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_to
> w
>> >er.html
>> >
>> >Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
>> >mile deep in water.
>>
>> Oh? And exactly how does this explain it?
> The erosion matches the effect of water currents as though the rock
> were submerged.
So _one_ _year_ of being submerged was enough for underwater currents to
erode the hard igneous rock?
>> > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
>> >unique columns formed from a cooling process.
>>
>> Unlikely. There is no evidence of volcanic activity anywhere in the
>> area. No volcanic ash, no lava flows, no debris...nada.
> So you disagree with Boikat about this.
No, not a volcano. Vulcanism, tho. I don't think Boikat said differently.
> Water resolves your objection, however -- the ash, lava flows, debris,
> etc., would have simply been washed away in a flood.
Whither?
>> > Water best explains the
>> >cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
> greater
>> >in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
>> >still runs nearby.
>>
>> According to everything I've read about it, the Tower was formed by an
>> igneous intrusion into sedimentary rock, and the molten rock which
>> formed it did not even surface. Geologists may not agree on exactly
>> how it formed, but they do agree on that much.
> That looks like little more than "magic" as an explanation. In fact,
> most geologists agree with Boikat that this was part of a volcano.
No.
>> Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the softer
>> sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is now
>> visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself is
>> eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
> "Don't need no stinking flood to explain it." That's a classic!
> Archie Bunker could not have put it better.
> It's the pattern of erosion that strongly suggests water currents
> around the rock. Rain, snow, sun, some random wind doesn't cause that
> erosion pattern in the rock.
Cooling.
>> >Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
>> >instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
>> >oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>>
>> Yup, cause the evidence doesn't bear it out.
> Anything but a "stinking flood" that *them* might agree with???
Poor andy. You should try defending the Truth sometime, it's a lot easier.
rich
> Andy
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
catshark
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <28u75t40i7nkbr81t...@4ax.com>,
> "Nell P. Wright" <wrigh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
[snip]
> > Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the
softer
> > sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is
now
> > visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself
is
> > eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
>
> "Don't need no stinking flood to explain it." That's a classic!
> Archie Bunker could not have put it better.
>
> It's the pattern of erosion that strongly suggests water currents
> around the rock. Rain, snow, sun, some random wind doesn't cause that
> erosion pattern in the rock.
>
Oh, wind patterns are random and water currents aren't? Common, Andy,
fess up! Your'e really a troll aren't you? No one can be that
dense. "I'm not really an idiot, but I play one on the usenet." Right?
Just in case anyone isn't getting Andy's little act, he really does
understand that molten rock can form into crystaline shapes as it cools
and he really did read the part of Nell's post about the surrounding
non-igneous material being worn away, leaving the igneous rock (more-or-
less) in the original shapes it formed in as it cooled.
>
> Andy
>
--
J. Pieret
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worthwhile
chewing through the leather straps.
marcof...@my-deja.com
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <930r1l$ch6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> marcof...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Okay, since you're the expert neo-Neptunist here, explain it
> > already.
>
> A massive flood likely carried away all the volcanic remnants and
> eroded the rock. From the picture at the site above, you can even see
> the direction in which the water primarily flowed.
Nice site. I visited the Tower last summer. Pleasant drive up from
Sundance, through the Bear Lodge Mountains (yeah, there *are* other
mountains nearby, only they're not igneous rock). The Bear Lodges are
sedimentary rocks, older than the rock comprising the Tower (yeah, the
Tower magma solidified within the pile of sediments, making it
difficult for floode water to cool it). On the drive, the first view
of the Tower is from several miles away; it sticks up from the floor
of the Belle Fourche Rver Valley, and the view is sort of down on it
(yeah, the Bear Lodges are higher than the Tower). Today, the river
and its tribs drain generally northward, but they may have drained in
other directions previously. In any case, that river and its tribs
have water in them year around, even though the channels are puny by
some comparisons. It's wet enough in eastern Wyoming for that to
happen. So the river and its tribs are constantly flowing, eroding the
softer sedimentary material even at low flow rates, and using the
particles that it carries to erode even harder materials when it
encounters them. No reason to suspect that the ancestral Belle Fourche
didn't do the same. The bottom line is that a puny river system like
the Belle Fourche can easily expose, within a few million years, a
stubby little volcanic neck or conduit emplaced in softer sediments,
just by doing what it's doing today. Can you do the math? Sure you
can. If the Belle Fourche removes the softer sedimentary rock at a
rate of a meter every thousand years, how long would it take to expose
the Tower to its present level, even if it were originally under a pile
of sediments and volcanics?
> No other explanation is even remotely plausible.
Well, you just got one. And it fits with observation. Hell, it's
*based* on observation. And it don't need no steenking aliens, voodoo,
or or other magick.
> Feel free to look
> through the other postings here yourself. Their only significance is
> that many evolutionists oppose the possibility of an enormous flood at
> all costs, simply because their adversaries support one.
Andy, you aren't an adversary, you're a victim of self-inflicted
abuse. You don't even have the potential for being an adversary. You
do have troll talent, but you're afraid to defend any position other
than by assertion and whining (cf. your posts in this thread). You
have no significance. Your primary insignificance is that you oppose
the possibility of any explanation for *anything* geological other than
an enormous flood.
In spite of that, you are highly amusing.
jmonrad
ghos...@my-deja.com
> marcof...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <930ote$al1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
> > > rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood
as
> > > well.
> >
> > Okay, since you're the expert neo-Neptunist here, explain it
already.
> A massive flood likely carried away all the volcanic remnants and
> eroded the rock. From the picture at the site above, you can even see
> the direction in which the water primarily flowed.
Show that this requires a "massive flood"? Please explain which picture
supports your "direction of this elusive "massive" flood"?
> No other explanation is even remotely plausible. Feel free to look
> through the other postings here yourself. Their only significance is
You have failed to show that 1) your proposed mechanism is credible 2)
that it is supported by additional evidence. Does the region support a
massive flood? What was the prefered direction of the currents? Any
evidence of such prefered direction from topography?
Not to mention the dating problems.
> that many evolutionists oppose the possibility of an enormous flood at
> all costs, simply because their adversaries support one.
You are confused. It's up to our "adversaries" to provide some credible
evidence to support their claims. So far none have been provided.
I also assume that you have given up on your other claim that
"The rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
well."?
ghos...@my-deja.com
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
> possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
> evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
of
> an enormous flood.
Your comments are as usual disproven by the fact that evolutionists do
accept the possibility of enormous floods (Channeled Scablands, Mars)
but they also require supporting evidence. So far there is no evidence
of a global flood of Genesis proportions and many contradicting data.
> If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a
great
> Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
> an enormous flood.
Poor logic. Perhaps you should focus more on the topic at hand though
rather than create your strawmen?
Simeon Nevel
Let's see what 15 minutes of web surfing with "eroded volcanic plug"
will find:
Eagle rock near Lake Tahoe in California a crummy picture of which can be
found at:
http://www.tahoe.com/summers/hiking/eaglerock2.html
The following site lists several other similar eroded volcanic plugs in
the same general area:
http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/tahoe/geology.html
There's Mt. Kenya in a central Kenyan national park:
http://www.gorp.com/gorp/location/africa/kenya/ke_mtken.htm
Mt. Thielson in Oregon:
http://www.orst.edu/groups/omc/THIELSEN.html
Ship Rock in New Mexico (all on one line if this wraps in your
newsreader):
http://www.uta.edu/geology/geol1425earth_system/images
/gaia_chapter_5/shiprock_volcanic_neck.jpg
Beacon Rock in Vancouver, Canada
http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section4/wacities/vancouver/scenicgorge/
Picacho Peak in Arizona (sorry for the wrapping again):
http://store.corbis.com/prodconfig/image_details.asp
?navid=top25&imageid=11464514
Need more?
Simeon
Simeon Nevel
>
>"Devils Tower rises 1,253 feet (382 m) above the
>nearby Belle Fouche River."
>
>How many feet in a mile andy?
Actually, the very top of the page says it's elevation is 5100+ feet. I
assume that means above sea-level.
Simeon
Simeon Nevel
>
>As for erosion patterns, I honestly have no idea whatsoever where you get
>that. It would have to have been some very strange water currents that
>formed those remarkably straight vertical lines.
To be fair, I don't really think Andy is talking about the vertical
columns. If you look at the picture at the top of the page, the side of
the tower facing the photographer appears to have had a scoop taken out of
it.
I guessing it's this feature that Andy's talking about.
Simeon
ghos...@my-deja.com
I'd presume that your excellent links would be enough. It does pay off
to take the time to do some research before making assertions though.
Not much of Andy's original assertions remains.
> Simeon
Bill Hudson
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
[snipped for brevity]
>
> And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
>
Sure about that?
"Devil's Tower" is spectacular, sure, but are you *sure* its the only
example of the type?
Better check again.
--
Bill Hudson
Bill Hudson
Devil's Postpile in the Mammoth Lakes region of California.
Actually, it isn't a 'plug' per se, but IIRC it is a remnant of a large
lava flow showing the same charactaristic hexagonal fracture pattern of
slow uniform cooling.
--
Bill Hudson
Bill Hudson
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
[snipped]
> But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
> possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
> evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility of
> an enormous flood. If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a great
> Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
> an enormous flood.
c'mon andy, you can do better than this.
cf. "Channeled Scablands", the (multiple?) floods of the med.
'evolutionists' are not *at all* averse to accepting the possibility of
an enormous flood. As has been pointed out to you so many times in
this thread alone, we require *evidence*.
Where is your *evidence* that Devil's Tower (a) formed underwater or (b)
was eroded by a massive flood?
--
Bill Hudson
Mark VandeWettering
>Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
>sides. Details are at
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
>er.html
>
>Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
>unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
>cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
>in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
>still runs nearby.
>
>instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
>oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
You really are cretinous, aren't you?
'Impossible to explain'? We have a winner folks!
Mark
>Andy
--
/* __ __ __ ____ __*/float m,a,r,k,v;main(i){for(;r<4;r+=.1){for(a=0;
/*| \/ |\ \ / /\ \ / /*/a<4;a+=.06){k=v=0;for(i=99;--i&&k*k+v*v<4;)m=k*k
/*| |\/| | \ V / \ \/\/ / */-v*v+a-2,v=2*k*v+r-2,k=m;putchar("X =."[i&3]);}
/*|_| |_ark\_/ande\_/\_/ettering <ma...@telescopemaking.org> */puts("");}}
Mark VandeWettering
>And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
Shiprock, New Mexico leaps to mind as an obvious counterexample.
Mark
Mark VandeWettering
>At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
>er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
>rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
>well.
Tell me Andy, what kind of igneous rocks are formed when magma cools
rapidly?
>Andy
Mark VandeWettering
>In article <28u75t40i7nkbr81t...@4ax.com>,
> "Nell P. Wright" <wrigh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>> >other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
>all
>> >sides. Details are at
>>
>>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_to
>w
>> >er.html
>> >
>> >Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
>> >mile deep in water.
>>
>
>The erosion matches the effect of water currents as though the rock
>were submerged.
Says who? Care to cite ANY geologist who made that claim? Ever? Anywhere?
>> > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
>> >unique columns formed from a cooling process.
>>
>> Unlikely. There is no evidence of volcanic activity anywhere in the
>> area. No volcanic ash, no lava flows, no debris...nada.
>
>So you disagree with Boikat about this.
It probably isn't a 'volcano' in the sense that it spewed ash and fire and
flowed lava over the surface. Currently the most popular theory is that it
never reached the surface.
>Water resolves your objection, however -- the ash, lava flows, debris,
>etc., would have simply been washed away in a flood.
Except for that lack of any signs of a flood, yeah. The reason that those
things are absent is because the magma never reached the surface of the earth.
>> > Water best explains the
>> >cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
>greater
>> >in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
>> >still runs nearby.
>>
>> According to everything I've read about it, the Tower was formed by an
>> igneous intrusion into sedimentary rock, and the molten rock which
>> formed it did not even surface. Geologists may not agree on exactly
>> how it formed, but they do agree on that much.
>
>That looks like little more than "magic" as an explanation. In fact,
>most geologists agree with Boikat that this was part of a volcano.
Are you trying to confuse the issue? Sorry, I forgot who I was talking to.
The major difference between an "igneous intrusion", and a volcano
is whether it reaches the surface of the earth.
>> Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the softer
>> sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is now
>> visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself is
>> eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
>
>"Don't need no stinking flood to explain it." That's a classic!
>Archie Bunker could not have put it better.
More than not needing a flood to explain it, there is no evidence of a flood
to support that hypothesis.
>It's the pattern of erosion that strongly suggests water currents
>around the rock. Rain, snow, sun, some random wind doesn't cause that
>erosion pattern in the rock.
Says who?
>> >Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
>> >instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
>> >oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>>
>> Yup, cause the evidence doesn't bear it out.
>
>Anything but a "stinking flood" that *them* might agree with???
I'm beginning to long for Erik and his inane spreadsheets...
Mark
>Andy
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
Boikat
Boikat wrote:
>
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
> > nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> > all
> > > > sides. Details are at
> > > >
> > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > > er.html
> > >
> > > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
> > a
> > > > mile deep in water.
> > >
> > > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
> >
> > It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
>
> But it still rains. Imagine that.
>
> >
> > At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
>
> You might want to do that. But first, why don't
> you open a geology book?
>
> > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall.
>
> The erosion pattern is due to the fracture
> pattern, not "currents".
>
> > The
> > rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> > well.
>
> The columns were not form due to rapid cooling.
> Rapid cooling due to "flood water" would
**NOT** have
> caused the uniform fractures. As far as lava
> extruded under water, look up "pillow lava".
>
> Boikat
Boikat
>
> In article <930r1l$ch6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> marcof...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <930ote$al1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall. The
> > > well.
> >
>
> A massive flood likely carried away all the volcanic remnants and
> eroded the rock. From the picture at the site above, you can even see
> the direction in which the water primarily flowed.
No, and no.
>
> No other explanation is even remotely plausible.
Regular erosion, not to mention the freeze thaw
cycle that the area experiences.
> Feel free to look
> through the other postings here yourself.
Feel free to open a basic geology book.
> Their only significance is
> that many evolutionists oppose the possibility of an enormous flood at
> all costs,
Again, "evolutionists" are not opposed to a large
flood (channeled scablands, remember?)
> simply because their adversaries support one.
No, the evidence does not support one. You must
be determined to demonstrate that each of your
posts can indeed be more stupid than the last.
Boikat
Boikat
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
> > > sides. Details are at
> > >
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html
> > >
> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain
> >
>
> Classic Darwinian namecalling there -- as recognizable as a heavy
> accent.
No. "name calling" would be warranted if you had
not previously provided evidence that you were not
a moron.
>
> [snip]
> > > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> > > unique columns formed from a cooling process.
> >
> > Yes.
>
> So far so good ... until someone mentions "flood" ...
That's because no massive flood is indicated,
fool.
>
> > > Water best explains the
> > > cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
> greater
> > > in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above).
> >
> > How does that better explain it? Just because you
> > pulled that explanation out of your arse? Because
> > it's different than the accepted theory? Sorry,
> > you have to present something better than that.
>
> There's that trademark evolutionist opposition to any large flood!!!
> Multiple small floods are OK, but not a large flood!
Multiple small floods are realistic. If the
formation was the result of a single large
geological flood, that area would resemble the
Channeled Scableands of SW Washington state. It
does not.
>
> > > A river
> > > still runs nearby.
> > >
> >
> > Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
> > near by".
>
> And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
So, if there was this giant flood, there should be
a lot more "devils towers" around, shouldn't
there? (As distinguished from simple layers of
columnar basalt, like those found in the
Yellowstone region).
>
> > > Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> > > instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods.
> >
> > No, You utter a falsehood again. Local flooding
> > even on an enormous scale is not impossible
> > (Channeled Scab lands...), however, Geologist have
> > found no evidence to support *THE* Global Flood of
> > Genesis.
>
> Ah, the compound negative that is so frequently used by Darwinists.
> Remember Gould's insistence that this theory is *not non-Darwinian*?
> Here we have the claim that an enormous flood is "not impossible"!
> Saying that without the negatives is too risky, eh?
You are being moronic in your attempt to play word
games. I hope you realize that. The issue that
geologists disagree with it *THE* world wide flood
of Genesis, which is claimed to have occurred
around 4500 years ago, and the rest of the Noah
myth. Large local floods are possible, since we
have evidence to support large local floods. We
do not have any evidence of a single world wide
flood that occurred 4500 years ago. *That* is the
"large flood" that geologists object to. Is there
something else that you do not understand about
that, or do you wish to continue making yourself
look like a moron?
>
> > > Do they
> > > oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
> >
> > Yes idiot, because for the columns to form in
> > basalt, the basalt has to cool *slowly* and
> > *uniformly*. Water would not have allowed this to
> > happen. Also, if you'd bother to look in a
> > geology book, you would find that lava that is
> > extruded under water forms distinctive shapes
> > called "Pillow Lava". Look up some pictures of
> > the lava formations located in the mid Atlantic
> > rift zone. let us know if you see columnar basalt
> > formations.
>
> It's not lava.
However *you* claimed it was lava, since in *your*
scenario it was exposed to floodwater. Since, in
your scenario, it was extruded, that would mean it
would have been lava.
> In fact, the cite I provided expressly stated that it
> was only "possibly[] an erosional remnant of a volcanic neck."
That is the currently accepted explanation.
>
> Apparently you have no explanation for the erosion pattern so visible
> on Devils Tower
Erosion removed the surrounding materials, ash,
sedimentary rock whatever. The more resistant
basalt of the tower remained. The fracture
pattern is due to the slow cooling of the basalt.
The current appearance is due to columns
collapsing from the outer margins due to erosion,
chiefly, water seeping into the fractures, and
freezing in the winter. Freezing water expands,
causing the columns to break and fall.
> Chalk that up to pure chance and "eons of time"???
Nope, chalk it up to eons of erosion.
Boikat
Boikat
ghos...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <930umk$fdl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
> > possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
> > evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
> of
> > an enormous flood.
Liar. Geologists object to a certain meaning of
"enormous flood", and you know it, that being, the
literal "Genesis flood" which covered the entire
planet, and killed everything except those on
board a wooden barge, that supposedly occurred
about 4500 years ago.
>
> Your comments are as usual disproven by the fact that evolutionists do
> accept the possibility of enormous floods (Channeled Scablands, Mars)
> but they also require supporting evidence. So far there is no evidence
> of a global flood of Genesis proportions and many contradicting data.
>
> > If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a
> great
> > Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
> > an enormous flood.
You keep using the term "enormous flood" in
attempts to confuse the issue. "Enormous flood"
can mean "just a big flood" like those experienced
a few years ago on the Missouri river, or (by
implication, since you constantly link "enormous
floods" with "objections by geologists") the Flood
as expounded by YEC's, as in a flood that covered
the entire surface of the planet (which is the
only "enormous flood" that geologists object to,
in *that* respect). In short, as usual, you're
trolling.
Boikat
Boikat
ghos...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <930umk$fdl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
> > possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
> > evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
> of
> > an enormous flood.
>
> Your comments are as usual disproven by the fact that evolutionists do
> accept the possibility of enormous floods (Channeled Scablands, Mars)
> but they also require supporting evidence. So far there is no evidence
> of a global flood of Genesis proportions and many contradicting data.
>
> > If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a
> great
> > Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
> > an enormous flood.
Yes, geologists would object to any theory of a
planet wide flood, as far as a world wide fire,
geologists would want to see the evidence of a
world wide fire too, and if none was found, then
geologists would also object to any claims of a
world wide fire too.
Boikat
Elmer Bataitis
> In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> > > sides. Details are at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html
> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
> > > mile deep in water.
> > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
So it still does rain there. Good. I thought something had happened to suspend
the laws of physics.
> At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall.
And you know this after how many semesters of studying geology?
> The
> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> well.
Rapid cooling makes glass like textures.
scot...@my-deja.com
> scot...@my-deja.com wrote:
> But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
> possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
> evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
of
> an enormous flood. If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a
great
> Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
> an enormous flood.
>
Andy, your thread is not about Devils Tower. Your thread is about you
attempting to use Devils Tower as an example of proof for a global
flood. (Or are you using “enormous” as your denial to mean “global”?
You really just stringing everyone on to believe you’re implying
global?) In any case, the Church doesn’t support your belief in such an
event: Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition,
nor again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to
the opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth.
Furthermore, Andy, “No Catholic commentator will repudiate an
explanation merely for fear of having to admit a miracle; but no
Catholic has a right to admit Biblical miracles which are not well
attested either by Scripture or tradition.” You wouldn’t be attempting
to do such a thing now would you, Andy?
Scott
Gavin Tabor
>
> In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
> > > sides. Details are at
> > >
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > er.html
> >
> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
> a
> > > mile deep in water.
> >
> > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
>
> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
>
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> well.
Rapid cooling? _RAPID COOLING_? The picture shows crystals that must be
several metres in diameter, at least. There is no way that that is the
result of rapid cooling.
Gavin
>
> Andy
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
--
Dr. Gavin Tabor
School of Engineering and Computer Science
Department of Engineering
University of Exeter
Gavin Tabor
>
> In article <930rn2$d19$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <and...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <3A53E9C5...@bellsouth.net>,
> > Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
> >> near by".
> >
> >And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
>
> actually. Another famous example is Edinburgh Castle Rock in Edinburgh,
> Scotland. The erosion in this case was glacial, so there are only three
> sides exposed, with the fourth side a gentle ramp down to the base level.
> This is easy to explain using conventional geology, the ice eroded away
> the material in the direction it was travelling, and deposited it after
> the Rock, but it's impossible to explain by a flood.
Also the Puy de Dome and other Puy's in France. Classic volcanic
plugs : the shape is very similar, although IIRC the crystalline
structure is not as clear as it is here : probably because the
current erosional processes are stronger in the case of the Puys
than in Wyoming.
Gavin
Ken Cox
> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> other mountains nearby.
> mile deep in water.
Really? And just how does water deposit a column of igneous rock?
(I am still wondering if Andy understands that there are different
kinds of rock.)
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Ken Cox
> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
Annual precipitation in Wyoming is 13.61 inches. The figure for
western Nebraska (that noted barren desert) is 15.27 inches.
You really do open yourself up for these things, don't you, Andy?
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
John Bode
> sides. Details are at
>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html
>
> unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
> cooling and erosion,
Of course water explains the erosion. It's called rain. It does not
explain the cooling. Have you ever seen molten rock extruded under
water? There's a famous film clip (I think taken by Cousteau's crew)
that shows lava erupting under water. As soon as it hits the water it
shatters into small boulders. It certainly doesn't grow into huge
columns. If the Devil's Tower had been extruded under water, it would
be a pile of rubble, not a single tower.
Volcanic dikes and plugs intrude into sedimentary rock, where they cool
*slowly* over *long* periods of time. The softer sedimentary rock is
eroded away by wind and rain (with some occasional local flooding) and
glacial action. What's left is this great huge tower. This isn't rare
(check out Monument Valley in Arizona), nor is it mysterious.
> which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
> in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
> still runs nearby.
>
> Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
> oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>
No one questions the existence of large regional floods in the past.
The idea of a *global* flood (i.e., the Flood of Genesis) that
covered the *entire* surface of the Earth, and that was responsible for
shaping the geological features we see, is dismissed because the
geological features we see (such as the Devil's Tower) argue
strongly *against* it. Floods do not produce basalt columns.
Furthermore, following the Andy model of flood geology that I've been
seeing in this and other threads, if the Flood were powerful enough to
shape continents and raise whole mountain ranges such as the Himalayas,
it would certainly be so powerful as to pulverize a feature as small as
the Devil's Tower.
> Andy
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
>
--
Milner's Law: If you can think of it, somebody else already has
and is making money from it on the Internet.
Get the FAQ's at http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
ghos...@my-deja.com
Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
>
> > It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
>
> Annual precipitation in Wyoming is 13.61 inches. The figure for
> western Nebraska (that noted barren desert) is 15.27 inches.
>
> You really do open yourself up for these things, don't you, Andy?
At least it should teach him to check before making these assertions.
At least one would hope. I have seen some evidence in other threads that
Andy has not learned from his mistakes yet.
> --
> Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Bobby D. Bryant
> No other explanation is even remotely plausible.
Last week you would have explained it as having squirted up suddenly due to
the pressure of all the floodwater on the plain around it.
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Ken Cox
> There's that trademark evolutionist opposition to any large flood!!!
It's the geologists who object.
> Multiple small floods are OK, but not a large flood!
Gee, and can you imagine *why* there's this difference in the
attitude? Here's a hint:
_ V I D _ N C _
Would you like to buy a vowel?
By the way, geologists don't have any objections to quite large
floods. The outflow of Lake Missoula that created the channeled
scablands, for example, is accepted fact; as are the filling of
the Black Sea at the end of the last glacial period, and the
*repeated* filling of the Mediterranean during the late Pliocene.
That's because there's _vid_nc_ for all of these. But there's
no _vid_nc_ for a flood that covered the whole earth, and a lot
of _vid_nc_ against such a thing.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Ken Cox
> To be fair, I don't really think Andy is talking about the vertical
> columns. If you look at the picture at the top of the page, the side of
> the tower facing the photographer appears to have had a scoop taken out of it.
>
> I guessing it's this feature that Andy's talking about.
And what water-erosion feature would that correspond to? A
giant sideways pothole?
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
R. Tang
>In article <3A54A17A...@research.bell-labs.com>,
> Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
>> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
>> > > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
>>
>> > It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
>>
>> Annual precipitation in Wyoming is 13.61 inches. The figure for
>> western Nebraska (that noted barren desert) is 15.27 inches.
>>
>> You really do open yourself up for these things, don't you, Andy?
>
>At least it should teach him to check before making these assertions.
>At least one would hope.
Doubtful.
He's an excessively sloppy debater with respect to facts; why
expect him to change? He's OK with pure rhetoric, but when he has to deal
with those pesky facts....
>I have seen some evidence in other threads that
>Andy has not learned from his mistakes yet.
He doesn't consider his sloppiness with facts to be a mistake....
--
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
Mark VandeWettering
>Piggybacking again:
>
>ghos...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <930umk$fdl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> > But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
>> > possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
>> > evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
>> of
>> > an enormous flood.
>>
>> Your comments are as usual disproven by the fact that evolutionists do
>> accept the possibility of enormous floods (Channeled Scablands, Mars)
>> but they also require supporting evidence. So far there is no evidence
>> of a global flood of Genesis proportions and many contradicting data.
>>
>> > If the Bible had instead spoken in terms of a
>> great
>> > Fire, then evolutionists likely would not object to the possibility of
>> > an enormous flood.
>
>Yes, geologists would object to any theory of a
>planet wide flood, as far as a world wide fire,
>geologists would want to see the evidence of a
>world wide fire too, and if none was found, then
>geologists would also object to any claims of a
>world wide fire too.
Indeed, scientists are pretty accepting of a theory that at the time
was considered fairly scandalous. You know, the one that explains the
world wide Iridium layer?
Scientists have no problems accepting theories of world wide catastrophism
if there is in fact evidence to support it.
Mark
>Boikat
Simeon Nevel
I dunno.... You'd have to ask Andy what he really means. I doubt you'll
have any better luck getting a response to a specific question than anyone
else has.
Simeon
R. Tang
Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
>and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> There's that trademark evolutionist opposition to any large flood!!!
>
>It's the geologists who object.
Y'know....the folks who have NEOtectonic studies and occasionally
talk about NEOtectonic theory.
ghos...@my-deja.com
sne...@sonic.net (Simeon Nevel) wrote:
> In article <3A53EC30...@bellsouth.net>, Boikat wrote:
> >
> >"Devils Tower rises 1,253 feet (382 m) above the
> >nearby Belle Fouche River."
> >
> >How many feet in a mile andy?
>
> Actually, the very top of the page says it's elevation is 5100+ feet.
I
> assume that means above sea-level.
Right, quite different from "height"
Nell P. Wright
and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <28u75t40i7nkbr81t...@4ax.com>,
> "Nell P. Wright" <wrigh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > >other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> all
> > >sides. Details are at
> >
>
>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_to
> w
> > >er.html
> > >
> > >Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was
once a
> > >mile deep in water.
> >
>
> The erosion matches the effect of water currents as though the rock
> were submerged.
No, the erosion patterns are consistent with rain, wind, snow, sun,
streams cutting downwards,etc. over time. LONG time. Many-many-many
10's-of-10's-of-10's hands of years.
>
> > > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> > >unique columns formed from a cooling process.
> >
> > Unlikely. There is no evidence of volcanic activity anywhere in the
> > area. No volcanic ash, no lava flows, no debris...nada.
>
> So you disagree with Boikat about this.
I disagree that it was a volcano.
>
> Water resolves your objection, however -- the ash, lava flows, debris,
> etc., would have simply been washed away in a flood.
The fact that the molten rock never reached the surface explains it a
lot better. Especially since there is no evidence of an "enormous"
flood in the surrounding area, either. Perhaps you should do some
reading on underwater eruptions...
>
> > > Water best explains the
> > >cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
> greater
> > >in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
> > >still runs nearby.
> >
> > According to everything I've read about it, the Tower was formed by
an
> > igneous intrusion into sedimentary rock, and the molten rock which
> > formed it did not even surface. Geologists may not agree on exactly
> > how it formed, but they do agree on that much.
>
> That looks like little more than "magic" as an explanation.
Excuse me? Your feeble grasp on reality is showing...not to mention
your desperation. Perhaps you consider matches magic, also? Fire-on-the-
end-of-a-stick?
>In fact,
> most geologists agree with Boikat that this was part of a volcano.
Most? Care to give some sources to back that up? I've found the exact
opposite. Volcanic rock, yes. Volcano, no.
>
> > Erosion by water, wind, snow, etc. over time has worn away the
softer
> > sandstone and shale, exposing the much harder igneous rock that is
now
> > visible. That erosion is still going on today, and the Tower itself
is
> > eroding visibly. Don't need no stinking flood to explain it.
>
> "Don't need no stinking flood to explain it." That's a classic!
> Archie Bunker could not have put it better.
Another demonstration of Andy's stellar reading comprehension. Not to
mention grasp of current vernacular...
>
> It's the pattern of erosion that strongly suggests water currents
> around the rock. Rain, snow, sun, some random wind doesn't cause that
> erosion pattern in the rock.
But it does. Have you bothered to read *anything* geologists have
written about the Tower?
>
> > >Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> > >instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do
they
> > >oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
> >
> > Yup, cause the evidence doesn't bear it out.
>
> Anything but a "stinking flood" that *them* might agree with???
So, who's actually got the 'locked into "us vs. them"' mentality here,
huh? Careful, Andy. If you continue to keep your eyes so tightly closed
you're going to walk into some really hard walls.
Nell P. Wright
>
> Andy
Andrew MacRae
Oh, you mean the one that also involves red-hot fragments of
molten rock falling from the sky around the world (producing tiny, glassy
spherules) and the resulting ignition of many forest fires (accounting for
unusual amounts of soot found in the same layer)?
|Scientists have no problems accepting theories of world wide
|catastrophism if there is in fact evidence to support it.
Yes, *IF* there is adequate evidence, and scientists will be
skeptical until that time. People used to think the idea of continents
moving around on the face of the Earth was pretty crazy, and scientists
were naturally skeptical of such claims... until the evidence turned up
that the continents really did move, and they still measurably are.
It is ironic that when it comes to a "world wide flood", it is the
interpretation that geologists *started* with back in the 1700s and early
1800s, and they were forced by the evidence to reject it. Scientists are
not skeptical of it today because of some kind of bias. They are
skeptical about it because it has been repeatedly scientifically negated
by the evidence for going on 200 years, including by generations of
devoutly religious scientists. It is about evidence, not religious
background, alterior motivations, or emotion. For heaven's sake, Andy,
read some of the historical works of creationist geologists of the early
19th century. They negate "global flood" models just as effectively as
anything written in more recent times. Then you might be ready to enter
the 21st century with some reasonable comprehension of why geologists
interpret Earth history the way that they do. It is not for lack of
*trying* to make a "global flood" model work.
-Andrew
mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
Stephen Watson
That's the secret landing strip the US govt carved out for the aliens,
isn't it? I saw it in a documentary.....
--
*************************************************
* Steve Watson * Nortel Networks, Ottawa Canada *
* My opinions, not Nortel's *
*************************************************
James Acker
: Simeon Nevel wrote:
:>
:> In article <930rn2$d19$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, and...@my-deja.com wrote:
:> >
:> >And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
:>
:> Let's see what 15 minutes of web surfing with "eroded volcanic plug"
:> will find:
:>
:> Eagle rock near Lake Tahoe in California a crummy picture of which can be
:> found at:
:>
:> http://www.tahoe.com/summers/hiking/eaglerock2.html
:>
:> The following site lists several other similar eroded volcanic plugs in
:> the same general area:
:>
:> http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/tahoe/geology.html
:>
:> There's Mt. Kenya in a central Kenyan national park:
:>
:> http://www.gorp.com/gorp/location/africa/kenya/ke_mtken.htm
:>
:> Mt. Thielson in Oregon:
:>
:> http://www.orst.edu/groups/omc/THIELSEN.html
:>
:> Ship Rock in New Mexico (all on one line if this wraps in your
:> newsreader):
:>
:> http://www.uta.edu/geology/geol1425earth_system/images
:> /gaia_chapter_5/shiprock_volcanic_neck.jpg
:>
:> Beacon Rock in Vancouver, Canada
:>
:> http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section4/wacities/vancouver/scenicgorge/
:>
:> Picacho Peak in Arizona (sorry for the wrapping again):
:>
:> http://store.corbis.com/prodconfig/image_details.asp
:> ?navid=top25&imageid=11464514
:>
:> Need more?
:>
:> Simeon
: Devil's Postpile in the Mammoth Lakes region of California.
: Actually, it isn't a 'plug' per se, but IIRC it is a remnant of a large
: lava flow showing the same charactaristic hexagonal fracture pattern of
: slow uniform cooling.
Similar palisades are seen along the Hudson River (called
the Palisades, amazingly enough) and along the Yellowstone River
canyon below the falls in Yellowstone National Park. Giant's
Causeway in Ireland is a similar formation, though not really a
"palisade".
Jim Acker
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Jim Acker
jac...@gl.umbc.edu
A second flood, a simple famine, plagues of locusts everywhere,
Or a cataclysmic earthquake, I'd accept with some despair.
But no, you sent us Congress! Good God, sir, was that fair?
--- John Adams, "Piddle, Twiddle, and Resolve", from the
musical "1776"
James Acker
:> But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
:> possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
:> evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
: of
:> an enormous flood.
: Your comments are as usual disproven by the fact that evolutionists do
: accept the possibility of enormous floods (Channeled Scablands, Mars)
: but they also require supporting evidence. So far there is no evidence
: of a global flood of Genesis proportions and many contradicting data.
More recently, the Black Sea, which has been suggested as the
source of the Genesis Flood story. (And I doubt that it will ever be
proven as such, but it's an interesting suggestion).
Andrew MacRae
Whether or not columnar joints (not crystals!) form is dependent
upon a number of factors, including cooling rates, temperature gradients,
the composition of the igneous rock, the shape of the igneous body, et
cetera. Andy is right that the presence of water can affect the
development of columns, however, it typically produces a zone of smaller,
more randomly-oriented columns known as an "entablature" (versus the more
parallel ones known as a "colonade"). I don't see any entabature-style
columns in the pictures of Devils Tower.
There are plenty of volcanic plugs, flows, sills, and other
structures with similar columnar jointing developed, where erosion has
removed the surrounding, softer, rocks and produced a peak. I have
pictures of examples from the Canadian Arctic, for example. Although the
ones I have seen are generally smaller than this fine example, the columns
are just as pretty.
Andy did not have to look far for other examples, though. There
are plenty on the VolcanoWorld web site (the same site he cited). Some
are even phonolitic like the Devils Tower (i.e. same type of rock). Check
out these ones on Principe:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/africa/wafrica.html
And this page on columnar jointing in general:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vw_hyperexchange/col_joint.html
The latter one also shows pictures of what an entablature looks
like.
This one shows another type of volcanic neck:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/arizona/nava
jo.html
-Andrew
mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
John Bode
John Bode <john...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <930l8h$7nl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> > all sides. Details are at
> >
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
er.html
> >
> > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
> > a mile deep in water. Some speculate it was a volcano, and that
> > it's unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best
> > explains the cooling and erosion,
>
Andy, did you read the text accompanying the photo?
=======================================================================
Devils Tower is a steep-sided igneous body and, possibly, an erosional
remnant of a volcanic neck. It is made of magma that
solidified at a shallow level (about 700 to 3,000 feet; 200 to 1000 m)
below the surface. Erosion then stripped the overlying layers
of rock away. The rock at Devils Tower is about 40 million years old.
The rock is called a phonolite based on its mineral
composition, which includes anorthoclase, aegirine-augite, and sphene.
Devils Tower rises 1,253 feet (382 m) above the nearby
Belle Fouche River. For more information contact Devils Tower National
Monument. Photo by Steve Mattox, June 1979.
=======================================================================
Andrew MacRae
ma...@peewee.telescopemaking.org (Mark VandeWettering) writes:
|On 3 Jan 2001 22:46:43 -0500, and...@my-deja.com <and...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
|
|>And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
|
Yes, although there are still some differences that Andy could try
to use to support his claim. I don't think that particular volcanic neck
has columnar jointing (although others in the same volcanic field do), and
Devils Tower might be only intrusive (e.g., a big sill or a lacolith),
rather than representing the exposed, once-subterranean neck of a volcano
that actually reached the surface. But these are details that don't
really affect Andy's claim that Devils Tower is explained by the Flood,
and his even bolder claim that geologists don't have a good explanation
for it. In general, yes, there is only one Devils Tower (just like there
is only one Mt. St. Helens, only one Mt. Rainier, only one Mt. Baker), but
there are plenty of very comparable formations. Every geological feature
is unique in *some*, perhaps trivial, way. So what, Andy? That would be
like saying that because every person is unique in some way, there is some
great debate about the basics of the biology of human reproduction, so
storks become a more viable interpretation.
-Andrew
mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
Andrew MacRae
ma...@peewee.telescopemaking.org (Mark VandeWettering) writes:
|On 3 Jan 2001 20:56:33 -0500, and...@my-deja.com <and...@my-deja.com>
|>Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
|>other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
|>sides. Details are at
|>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
er.html
|>
|>Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
|>mile deep in water. Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
|>unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
|>in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
|>still runs nearby.
|>
|>instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods. Do they
|>oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
|
|
|'Impossible to explain'? We have a winner folks!
More like lazy. There were three references listed at the bottom
of the web page, one of which (Karner and Halverson) is both published,
directly relevant, and in a widely-available source (the GSA Centential
Field Guides). He sure didn't look hard for explanations.
-Andrew
mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
Andrew MacRae
|and...@my-deja.com wrote:
|>
|> In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
|> nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
|> > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
|> >
|> > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
|> > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
|> > > all sides. Details are at
|> > >
|>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tower
|> >
|> > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
|> > > a mile deep in water.
|> >
|> > What? Doesn't it rain in Wyoming?
|>
|> It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
|>
|> At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
|>
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tower
|> rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
|> well.
|
|Rapid cooling? _RAPID COOLING_? The picture shows crystals that must be
|several metres in diameter, at least. There is no way that that is the
|result of rapid cooling.
They aren't crystals, they are columnar joints -- i.e. prismatic
fractures with polygonal cross sections. They can form as an igneous rock
(intrusive or extrusive) cools and contracts (i.e. they are tensional
cracks), somewhat like the way mud cracks form. They usually form
perpendicular to the local temperature gradient, in a progressive fashion,
towards the hottest part of the flow or intrusive body (usually the bottom
or center). If the temperature gradients curve, so do the columns.
Refer to:
Aydin, A. and DeGraff, J.M., 1988 (Jan. 29). Evolution of polygonal
fracture patterns in lava flows. Science, v.239, p.471-476.
And:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vw_hyperexchange/col_joint.html
-Andrew
mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
Adam Noel Harris
:In article <slrn958cpl...@peewee.telescopemaking.org>
If they aren't posted to the Internet, they aren't real science, as I
understand it.
-Adam
--
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Stanford University.
PGP Fingerprint = C0 65 A2 BD 8A 67 B3 19 F9 8B C1 4C 8E F2 EA 0E
Floyd
Stephen Watson wrote:
> In article <3A54AD17...@research.bell-labs.com>,
> Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
> >Simeon Nevel wrote:
> >> To be fair, I don't really think Andy is talking about the vertical
> >> columns. If you look at the picture at the top of the page, the side of
> >> the tower facing the photographer appears to have had a scoop taken out of it.
> >>
> >> I guessing it's this feature that Andy's talking about.
> >
> >And what water-erosion feature would that correspond to? A
> >giant sideways pothole?
>
> That's the secret landing strip the US govt carved out for the aliens,
> isn't it? I saw it in a documentary.....
I remember that documentary too...Nova special, wasn't it? Cool soundtrack. Loved
the mashed potatoes. -Floyd
Floyd
Adam Marczyk wrote:
> <and...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:930l8h$7nl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> > sides. Details are at
> > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > er.html
> >
> > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
> > mile deep in water.
>
> Not at all. In fact, the very site you cited gives an alternative and much
> more plausible explanation.
>
> Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> > unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
> > cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
> > in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
> > still runs nearby.
>
> Many people have already pointed this out, but I will again. Need lots of
> sledgehammer blows to drive in that spike, you know. If the Devil's Tower
> had been submerged at the time of its formation, it would be made of pillow
> lava, the only type of igneous rock that forms underwater. It isn't.
Well, to be as fair as possible, there are a few other possible forms for lava
to take when exposed to water (although not, as you note, submerged). In basalt
collonades, for example, often the upper and lower levels cool first, from the
outside in, so to speak. The formation of columns can create pathways for rain
or other moisture to get to the still molten interior. When this happens,
you'll often still see something like columnar joints forming, but they will not
be in the regular, parallell positions you see in columnar basalts. There are
some stunning examples of these entabulatures in eastern Washington state, in
the CRBs, and there are a few neat patches around the Giants' Causeway in Co.
Antrim.In flood basalts, obsidian can form when the material is cooled extremely
rapidly (e.g. by flowing into water) and basaltic deltas can also form from
basalt floods (which, in case Andy is still reading, are rather different from
floods of water in a few important respects).
Of course none of these conditions will create a Devil's Tower type of
structure, and none of these, including the Devil's Tower, would suggest the
presence of a _global_ flood all by itself. In fact, the presence of the
columns, by itself, demonstrates that there was _NOT_ a global flood at the time
they formed. Still, Andy has never let the facts stand in his way before.
-Floyd
P.S. thank you, very much, for using "cite" and "site" properly! After reading
a few hundred intro course papers, it's a sight for sore eyes! :-)
>
>
> As for erosion patterns, I honestly have no idea whatsoever where you get
> that. It would have to have been some very strange water currents that
> formed those remarkably straight vertical lines.
>
> > Locked in their "us v. them" approach, evolutionists seem to
> > instinctively oppose the past existence of enormous floods.
>
> Er, no. I have no objection to massive floods. The Black Sea one was
> probably pretty big by anyone's standards. But the idea of a global flood as
> depicted in Genesis is silly. Do you actually have quotes from any
> evolutionists saying they categorically oppose the idea of all huge floods,
> or did you just make that part up yourself?
>
> > Do they oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
>
> This one certainly does.
>
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com
> > http://www.deja.com/
> >
>
> --
> When I am dreaming,
> I don't know if I'm truly asleep, or if I'm awake.
> When I get up,
> I don't know if I'm truly awake, or if I'm still dreaming...
> --Forest for the Trees, "Dream"
>
> To send e-mail, change "excite" to "hotmail"
Paul J. Koeck
<and...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:930l8h$7nl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on all
> sides. Details are at
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> er.html
>
> Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
> unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains the
> cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be greater
> in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A river
> still runs nearby.
>
> oppose the notion of a flood eroding and cooling Devils Tower?
Incorrect. There is plenty of evidence for all sorts of massive
catostrophic events during the last 3 billion years or so. Including
huge floods. However, there is no evidence for a global deluge that
covered Mt Everest for a year 4000 years ago.
Given your inability to read, I'm not surprised you don't understand
the difference between enormous floods and global floods and the
many document examples of the former.
--
Paul J. Koeck, #360
EAC MindControl Beam(tm) Operator #34529085783828-4875
EAC Tech - Personal Mind Control at a great price!
Volume discounts available.
Don't let reality hit you in the ass on your way out.
Only an idiot or a PromiseKeeper cult member would
think that my opinions necessarily reflect those of
my employer.
To reply, change Byte.Me to newsguy
Paul J. Koeck
"Elmer Bataitis" <nyli...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:3A549634...@frontiernet.net...
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <3A53E162...@frontiernet.net>,
> > nyli...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> > > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
all
> > > > sides. Details are at
>
> > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > > er.html
>
> > > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once
a
> > > > mile deep in water.
>
>
> > It doesn't rain much in Wyoming.
>
suspend
> the laws of physics.
That's the first tenet of cretinism, you know.
>
> > At any rate, look at the erosion pattern at
> > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > er.html. The erosion is plainly from currents, not rainfall.
>
> And you know this after how many semesters of studying geology?
Study? Andy? Next thing you know my extremely dimwitted dog
will crank out a best-selling novel by barking in morse-code. (Hmmm...
methinks I have an insight into ICR pamphlet writing techniques)
>
> > The
> > rapid cooling of the columns is more easily explained by a flood as
> > well.
>
> Rapid cooling makes glass like textures.
>
I'd have to read up on that myself, but unlike Andy, I could probably
understand what is being said in the books.
Don't forget about his other, equally ridiculous assertion: that because
scientists don't accept the existence of a global flood 4000 years ago,
they therefore must not accept the existence of ANY catostrophic
flood (albeit less then global) ever evidenced.
Reminds me of the other favority cretinist canard: if science doesn't know
something now, then we'll never know, and in fact, shouldn't even bother
trying.
Noelie S. Alito
Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3A54916A...@bellsouth.net...
> > > and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
> > > > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
> > all
> > > > sides. Details are at
> > > >
> > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
> > > > er.html
> > > >
> > > > Easy to describe, impossible to explain
> > >
> >
> > Classic Darwinian namecalling there -- as recognizable as a heavy
> > accent.
>
> No. "name calling" would be warranted if you had
> not previously provided evidence that you were not
> a moron.
>
> >
> > [snip]
> > > > Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
> > > > unique columns formed from a cooling process.
> > >
> >
> > So far so good ... until someone mentions "flood" ...
>
> That's because no massive flood is indicated,
> fool.
>
> >
> > > > Water best explains the
> > > > cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
> > greater
> > > > in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above).
> > >
> > > pulled that explanation out of your arse? Because
> > > it's different than the accepted theory? Sorry,
> > > you have to present something better than that.
> >
> > There's that trademark evolutionist opposition to any large flood!!!
>
> formation was the result of a single large
> geological flood, that area would resemble the
> Channeled Scableands of SW Washington state. It
> does not.
>
Is this the biggest known "short-term" flood formation on
Earth (discounting long-term continent coverage like
Lake Bonneville and such)? If so, what percentage of
the Earth's surface do the Scablands represent?
More to the point, what is the largest sized "flood" ever
for which there is evidence? (Flood on Earth)
BTW, does anyone know the extent of coverage of the
1992(?) Mississippi/Missouri River floods (Iowa and all that)?
> >
> > > > A river still runs nearby.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
> > > near by".
> >
> > And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
>
> So, if there was this giant flood, there should be
> a lot more "devils towers" around, shouldn't
> there? (As distinguished from simple layers of
> columnar basalt, like those found in the
> Yellowstone region).
Shouldn't you be using an AndyLogic disclaimer?
<snip>
Noelie
--
Water, water, everywhere, but not a drop to drink. --Coleridge
Bill Hudson
>
[snipped]
> >
> > Multiple small floods are realistic. If the
> > formation was the result of a single large
> > geological flood, that area would resemble the
> > Channeled Scableands of SW Washington state. It
> > does not.
> >
>
> Is this the biggest known "short-term" flood formation on
> Earth (discounting long-term continent coverage like
> Lake Bonneville and such)? If so, what percentage of
> the Earth's surface do the Scablands represent?
>
> More to the point, what is the largest sized "flood" ever
> for which there is evidence? (Flood on Earth)
I have heard a rumor that other large-scale flood formations have been
found which are similar to but larger than the Channeled Scablands.
However, setting those aside for now, probably the largest short-term
catestrophic flood I have heard of would be the repeated flooding and
evaporation of the med. Obviously the infilling was short term, not the
evaporation. :-)
I would have loved to have seen the breakthrough on one of those floods.
--
Bill Hudson
Alan Barclay
Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
>and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>> other mountains nearby.
>> mile deep in water.
>
Very very very hot water?
John Harshman
<noe...@nospam.jump.net> wrote:
> Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3A54916A...@bellsouth.net...
> Is this the biggest known "short-term" flood formation on
> Earth (discounting long-term continent coverage like
> Lake Bonneville and such)? If so, what percentage of
> the Earth's surface do the Scablands represent?
I think it is. There aren't very many. As for the last question, is "very,
very small" close enough for you?
> More to the point, what is the largest sized "flood" ever
> for which there is evidence? (Flood on Earth)
I would suggest it's the flooding of the Mediterranean basin, which
actually happened several times in the Neogene, as the basin opened to the
ocean, then closed again, then opened again. The flooding of the Black Sea
basin would be the second-largest. I suspect this sort of thing would have
happened many times in Earth history as continental plates bumped into
each other, but I don't know of any actual examples. Really big evaporite
deposits would be clues, though.
> BTW, does anyone know the extent of coverage of the
> 1992(?) Mississippi/Missouri River floods (Iowa and all that)?
A few tens of square miles at most. But I will have to say it looked
impressive, viewed from the bluffs across the river.
--
*Note the obvious spam-defeating modification
to my address if you reply by email.
Jonathan Stone
*Liquid* water depositing *igneous rock*?
That "vapour canopy" water must be pretty miraculous stuff.
Bigdakine
>From: "Stephen Watson" swa...@nortelnetworks.com
>Date: 1/4/01 9:54 AM Hawaiian Standard Time
>Message-id: <932kbc$ri8$1...@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>
>
>In article <3A54AD17...@research.bell-labs.com>,
>Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
>>Simeon Nevel wrote:
>>> To be fair, I don't really think Andy is talking about the vertical
>>> columns. If you look at the picture at the top of the page, the side of
>>> the tower facing the photographer appears to have had a scoop taken out of
>it.
>>>
>>> I guessing it's this feature that Andy's talking about.
>>
>>And what water-erosion feature would that correspond to? A
>>giant sideways pothole?
>
>That's the secret landing strip the US govt carved out for the aliens,
>isn't it? I saw it in a documentary.....
Yeah in fact the documentary was Close Encounters..
Stuart
Dr. Stuart A. Weinstein
Ewa Beach Institute of Tectonics
"To err is human, but to really foul things up
requires a creationist"
marcof...@my-deja.com
2iveld4.dialup.mindspring.com>,
harshman....@sjm.infi.net (John Harshman) wrote:
> In article <932vct$hr$1...@news.jump.net>, "Noelie S. Alito"
> <noe...@nospam.jump.net> wrote:
>
> > More to the point, what is the largest sized "flood" ever
> > for which there is evidence? (Flood on Earth)
>
> I would suggest it's the flooding of the Mediterranean basin, which
> actually happened several times in the Neogene, as the basin opened
> to the ocean, then closed again, then opened again. The flooding of
> the Black Sea basin would be the second-largest. I suspect this sort
> of thing would have happened many times in Earth history as
> continental plates bumped into each other, but I don't know of any
> actual examples. Really big evaporite deposits would be clues, though.
I think a better case could be made for Hudson Bay for the number two
spot, which is currently larger than the Black Sea, and has only shrunk
with the progression of post-glacial rebounding. Also, it doesn't
suffer from occupying an oceanic-crust-floored basin like the Med -- HB
is clearly part of a continent that's been flooded, as opposed to an
oceanic basin that's been filled.
jmonrad
Paul J. Gans
> and...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
>> other mountains nearby.
>> Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
>> mile deep in water.
> Really? And just how does water deposit a column of igneous rock?
> (I am still wondering if Andy understands that there are different
> kinds of rock.)
There is only one rock-kind. All of the forms of rock
you see were formed by microevolution from ur-rock, the
father of all rock.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J. Gans
> ghos...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : In article <930umk$fdl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> : and...@my-deja.com wrote:
> :> But this thread is not about the Biblical account of the flood and its
> :> possible translations. It's about Devils Tower -- and how
> :> evolutionists are so emotionally averse to accepting the possibility
> : of
> :> an enormous flood.
> : Your comments are as usual disproven by the fact that evolutionists do
> : accept the possibility of enormous floods (Channeled Scablands, Mars)
> : but they also require supporting evidence. So far there is no evidence
> : of a global flood of Genesis proportions and many contradicting data.
> More recently, the Black Sea, which has been suggested as the
> source of the Genesis Flood story. (And I doubt that it will ever be
> proven as such, but it's an interesting suggestion).
> Jim Acker
Hasn't the Mediterranean flooded several times?
----- Paul J. Gans
Gavin Tabor
My thanks for the correction and the references. Would I still be right
in
thinking that such structures do require fairly slow cooling to form?
Gavin
>
> Refer to:
>
> Aydin, A. and DeGraff, J.M., 1988 (Jan. 29). Evolution of polygonal
> fracture patterns in lava flows. Science, v.239, p.471-476.
>
> And:
>
> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vw_hyperexchange/col_joint.html
>
> -Andrew
> mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
--
Dr. Gavin Tabor
School of Engineering and Computer Science
Department of Engineering
University of Exeter
Matt Silberstein
> Volcanic dikes and plugs intrude into sedimentary rock, where they
cool
> *slowly* over *long* periods of time. The softer sedimentary rock is
> eroded away by wind and rain (with some occasional local flooding) and
> glacial action. What's left is this great huge tower. This isn't
rare
> (check out Monument Valley in Arizona), nor is it mysterious.
I am pretty sure those are not igneous rock.
[snip]
> Milner's Law: If you can think of it, somebody else already has
> and is making money from it on the Internet.
>
Matt's Corollary: If you can think of it, somebody else has already has
and has lost lots of money on it on the Internet.
--
Matt Silberstein
Unhappy the country that needs heroes. B. Brecht
James Acker
:> Jim Acker
Sure has. In terms of the historical realization that big
catastrophic floods occurred in various areas, the Scablands would
be first, followed by the Mediterranean fill-and-evaporate cycles
(discovered via deep-sea drilling cores that found thick salt layers
at the bottom of the Med), and most recently the Black Sea.
One might also include the climatologic realization that the
Younger Dryas period at the end of the last glacial was caused by the
release of a huge amount of glacial meltwater (fresh water) into the
North Atlantic down the St. Lawrence river valley. Wallace Broecker
figured this one out about a decade ago.
Floyd
Jonathan Stone wrote:
It was under tremendous pressure, what with Jehova jumping from place to
place on it, holding all the atoms together and stuff. The pressure allowed
the water to remain in a liquid state despite being super-heated enough to
melt rock. Obviously...
-Floyd
Ken Cox
> Alan Barclay <gor...@elaine.furryape.com> wrote:
> >Ken Cox <k...@lucent.com> wrote:
> >>Really? And just how does water deposit a column of igneous rock?
> >Very very very hot water?
> *Liquid* water depositing *igneous rock*?
> That "vapour canopy" water must be pretty miraculous stuff.
You've heard of Ice-9? This is Steam-7.
It interacts differently with organic and inorganic material as
well. This explains why it is hot enough to transport molten
rock, but doesn't immediately cause the Ark to burst into flame.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Ken Cox
> > BTW, does anyone know the extent of coverage of the
> > 1992(?) Mississippi/Missouri River floods (Iowa and all that)?
> A few tens of square miles at most.
Maybe at any one point along the river. But added up, the total
area covered was greater than that of Lake Erie.
Which is still nothing compared to the size of the continent, of
course. And, curiously, no structures like Devil's Tower were
formed by either deposition or erosion during the flooding.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Howard Hershey
And, of course, this was a local flood in the Mississippi River
drainage area caused by excessive input temporarily overwhelming the
outflow to the ocean and is not the type of flood that andy proposes
(one having a world-wide effect of putting the entire land surface of
the earth a mile under the sea). Of course, the local Mississippi
flood only temporarily raised the local water level a few tens of feet
at most (bad luck if you were lower than that in the drainage basin,
but such floods cannot provide a world-wide layer of water a mile
deep).
Andy's flood would have to be from the ocean up (raising sealevel) as
would occur with the melting of the polar icecaps if he wants a flood
to cover the entire landmass of the earth. And melting all the ice
caps would also only raise sea level a few tens of feet at most (bad
luck if you are lower than that on the shore of the ocean's basin --
bye, bye Florida, but hardly enough to flood Denver).
So, andy, exactly how did this supposed mile-deep flood work?
>
> --
> Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Boikat
As far as I know, it's the largest of that nature.
> If so, what percentage of
> the Earth's surface do the Scablands represent?
>
IIRC, at a guesstimate, the scablands cover about
1/4 to 1/5 of Washington state. Washington state
covers 66,582 sq. miles (Rand McNally road atlas),
that would be around 16645. (using 1/4, and
dropping the fractions. After all, it is only a
rough guess anyway.) The land surface of the
earth is approximately 70,550,000 sq. miles. So,
that comes out to about (and I'm sure the math
sharpies will offer much more accurate figures, if
I'm terribly off in the estimate) of around 2.35 X
10 ^-4 percent of the land surface of the earth,
or (if I'm doing the exponent thingy right),
.000235 %.
> More to the point, what is the largest sized "flood" ever
> for which there is evidence? (Flood on Earth)
As far as anything that could be considered
"catastrophic", the flooding of the Mediterranean
basin, but that was before modern human time. The
only "catastrophic" one left that I would count is
the flooding of the Black Sea, around 10 - 7
thousand years ago.
>
> BTW, does anyone know the extent of coverage of the
> 1992(?) Mississippi/Missouri River floods (Iowa and all that)?
I have no idea, and my brain is too soggy after
figuring out the rough surface area of the earth
(235,160,000 sq. miles, using the formula
4*Pi*r^2, = 4*3.14*4327^2 = 4*3.14* 18772929, or
something like that. I rounded as I went. :P )
the fraction of that which is land (Approx. 30%,
or roughly 70,550,000,) the area of Washington
state,(66,582), and the estimate of 1/4 of that
being scablands (though it may be less, and again,
in the final figuring, I rounded up, so I came up
with: 16645/70,550,000 = 2.35 X 10^-4, or,
.000235% :P
*(Disclaimer: math is not my favorite subject,
especially stuff with big numbers. I only have so
many fingers and toes, and strangers object,
sometimes violently, when I want to use theirs as
a "carry function"...)*
>
> > >
> > > > > A river still runs nearby.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Big deal. There are a lot of places with "a river
> > > > near by".
> > >
> > > And how many Devils Tower formations in nature??? One.
> >
> > So, if there was this giant flood, there should be
> > a lot more "devils towers" around, shouldn't
> > there? (As distinguished from simple layers of
> > columnar basalt, like those found in the
> > Yellowstone region).
>
> Shouldn't you be using an AndyLogic disclaimer?
Actually, that was a "mouse trap" for andy.
Oh well. ;}
Boikat
Ken Cox
> And, of course, this was a local flood in the Mississippi River
> drainage area caused by excessive input temporarily overwhelming the
> only temporarily raised the local water level a few tens of feet
It was more like 70-80 feet at St. Louis, where I viewed it. But
that's because that's one of the few places on the river where
there are levees right at both banks, and neither set of levees
was breached -- though it came close.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Andrew MacRae
|Adam Marczyk wrote:
|> <and...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:930l8h$7nl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|> > Devils Tower is a mile-high, pure rock mountain in Wyoming with no
|> > other mountains nearby. It's flat at the top, and a sheer drop on
all
|> > sides. Details are at
|> >
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_tow
|> > er.html
|> >
|> > Easy to describe, impossible to explain -- unless the area was once a
|> > mile deep in water.
|>
|> Not at all. In fact, the very site you cited gives an alternative and
|> much more plausible explanation.
And the references cited on the site are even better.
|> Some speculate it was a volcano, and that it's
|> > unique columns formed from a cooling process. Water best explains
|> > the cooling and erosion, which were (1) enormous and (2) seem to be
|> > greater in its middle than at its top (see picture at site above). A
|> > river still runs nearby.
|>
|> Many people have already pointed this out, but I will again. Need lots
|> of sledgehammer blows to drive in that spike, you know. If the Devil's
|> Tower had been submerged at the time of its formation, it would be made
|> of pillow lava, the only type of igneous rock that forms underwater. It
|> isn't.
|
|Well, to be as fair as possible, there are a few other possible forms for
|lava to take when exposed to water (although not, as you note,
|submerged).
Actually, that isn't quite true. Hyaloclastites, for example, can
form rather than pillows, although a mixture (of pillows and
hyaloclastites) is common too, forming what is often called a "pillow
breccia". But this presumes that the Devils Tower structure is extrusive
rather than intrusive, which isn't necessarily the case, at least for this
part of it (perhaps it was extrusive at a higher level, prior to it being
eroded away).
|In basalt collonades, for example, often the upper and lower levels cool
|first, from the outside in, so to speak. The formation of columns can
|create pathways for rain or other moisture to get to the still molten
|interior. When this happens, you'll often still see something like
|columnar joints forming, but they will not
|be in the regular, parallell positions you see in columnar basalts.
Yes. So, what you may see is a layer of nice, subparallel columns
that grew from the bottom of the flow, nice columns that grew from the
top, and more irregularly-oriented columns in the middle part that cooled
faster. The geometry of the columns also depends upon the way the flow
cooled and the shape of its contacts (e.g., if there is a bulge in the
flow, the columns usually curve until they are perpendicular to that
contact).
There are some hints that something was different towards the top
of the Devil's Tower structure, because the columns become bigger and more
poorly defined in the upper fifth or so of its height. In the picture
towards the bottom of the page Andy cited, it looks a bit like two or more
of the thinner, lower columns merge upwards into bigger, more irregular
ones.
|There are some stunning examples of these entabulatures in eastern
|Washington state, in the CRBs,
Columbia River Basalts, for those not up on their acronyms.
|and there are a few neat patches around the Giants' Causeway in Co.
|Antrim.
There were some stunning examples of collonades and entablature
development in basalt flows and sills in the field area where I did my
Ph.D. There were also some spectacular examples of the interaction of
basalt flows, water, and waterlogged sediment, including hyaloclastites
and pillow-like structures. Some of the examples were every bit as nice
as the published descriptions of them from the CRB. Beautiful stuff.
Some days I wished I was an igneous petrologist, rather than focussing on
the intercalated sediments between the flows.
|In flood basalts, obsidian can form when the material is cooled extremely
|rapidly (e.g. by flowing into water)
Yes, and the steam often shatters the product, producing rocks
consisting mostly of glassy shards of rock, known as hyaloclastites or
pepperites (I can't remember if it is 3 "p" or only 2 -- ah well).
|and basaltic deltas can also form
Oh, yes. Basalt deltas. Very cool. They also provide an
indication of the sea or lake level at the time. There are some
beautiful published examples from Iceland and western Greenland.
|from basalt floods (which, in case Andy is still reading, are rather
|different from floods of water in a few important respects).
Yes, there isn't an especially good analogue to thermal erosion,
for example.
|Of course none of these conditions will create a Devil's Tower type of
|structure, and none of these, including the Devil's Tower, would suggest
|the presence of a _global_ flood all by itself.
Yes. Lava deltas, for example, clearly show that the water, at
the time they formed, could *not* have immersed the whole thing. It was
only at the upper level of the deposit (i.e. the topsets).
|In fact, the presence of the
|columns, by itself, demonstrates that there was _NOT_ a global flood at
|the time they formed. Still, Andy has never let the facts stand in his
|way before.
..
-Andrew
mac...@agc.bio._NOSPAM_.ns.ca
Roger Schlafly
> Andy's flood would have to be from the ocean up (raising sealevel) as
> would occur with the melting of the polar icecaps if he wants a flood
> to cover the entire landmass of the earth. And melting all the ice
> caps would also only raise sea level a few tens of feet at most (bad
> luck if you are lower than that on the shore of the ocean's basin --
> bye, bye Florida, but hardly enough to flood Denver).
>
> So, andy, exactly how did this supposed mile-deep flood work?
I think the idea is that the flood was before the Rockies were
formed, so Denver was at a much lower altitude.
Ken Cox
> Howard Hershey wrote:
> > So, andy, exactly how did this supposed mile-deep flood work?
> I think the idea is that the flood was before the Rockies were
> formed, so Denver was at a much lower altitude.
No, Andy has specifically said that it's only emotional bias that
keeps scientists from accepting the possibility that the flood
waters actually rose a mile high. His exact words (from article
<933f0l$jo8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>) were:
andysch:
> David C. Fritzinger:
> > Answer: Denver is the "Mile-High City".
Right. It's only those emotionally opposed to enormous flood who would
automatically reject a flood rising as high as Denver.
So Andy certainly appears to be claiming that the flood waters
rose the full mile to Denver -- note that he does not take this
obvious opportunity to "correct" David and say that Denver was
much lower when it was covered by the flood.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Martin Crisp
the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 3:04:39 +1100, Gavin Tabor wrote
(in message <3A549CFD...@ex.ac.uk>):
> Alan Barclay wrote:
You're a world-class cretin, aren't you Andy?
>> Eroded volcanic plugs aren't terribly rare, so the answer is several
>> actually. Another famous example is Edinburgh Castle Rock in Edinburgh,
>> Scotland. The erosion in this case was glacial, so there are only three
>> sides exposed, with the fourth side a gentle ramp down to the base level.
>> This is easy to explain using conventional geology, the ice eroded away
>> the material in the direction it was travelling, and deposited it after
>> the Rock, but it's impossible to explain by a flood.
>
> Also the Puy de Dome and other Puy's in France. Classic volcanic
> plugs : the shape is very similar, although IIRC the crystalline
> structure is not as clear as it is here : probably because the
> current erosional processes are stronger in the case of the Puys
> than in Wyoming.
Half of Tasmania is igneous intrusion
<http://www.tourism.tas.gov.au/nat/geo/geology.html>
<http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/geo/geohome.html>
(follow the slideshow link near top of page)
IIRC these are both volcanic plugs, similar in nature to Devil's Tower:
Table Cape
<http://www.tourism.tas.gov.au/gfx/500_jpg/b3f16.lay.jpg>
and The Nut
<http://www.tourism.tas.gov.au/gfx/500_jpg/b3f279.lay.jpg>
Those persuaded by andy's 'arguments' are asked to note the comments on
weathering by water on the first of the linked pages above.....
If you ask the webmaster, Gerald, nicely (link at base of the first
linked page), he might be able to recall where he sourced the
information.
And since climbers tend to photograph these things:
<http://www.tassie.net.au/~jnermut/Areas/majorareas.htm>
<http://www.tassie.net.au/~jnermut/Areas/minorareas.htm>
Particularly for the flood's andy-weathering:
<http://www.tassie.net.au/~jnermut/Areas/flutes2.jpg>
<http://www.tassie.net.au/~jnermut/Areas/acrop1.jpg>
<http://members.iinet.net.au/~davisfam1/tasmania/indextas.html>
Have Fun
Martin
--
Kinky:
What I do that you wouldn't
Perverted:
What you do that I wouldn't
Mark VandeWettering
I'm getting confused. Andy claimed (erroneously) that mountains are
pushed up by floodwaters. How could the flood have arisen, formed
Devil's Tower, then subsided, and pushed it up a few thousand feet into
the air?
Mark
>
--
/* __ __ __ ____ __*/float m,a,r,k,v;main(i){for(;r<4;r+=.1){for(a=0;
/*| \/ |\ \ / /\ \ / /*/a<4;a+=.06){k=v=0;for(i=99;--i&&k*k+v*v<4;)m=k*k
/*| |\/| | \ V / \ \/\/ / */-v*v+a-2,v=2*k*v+r-2,k=m;putchar("X =."[i&3]);}
/*|_| |_ark\_/ande\_/\_/ettering <ma...@telescopemaking.org> */puts("");}}