A treatise on how one willfully becomes an atheist
Dave in Lake Villa
'
REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
: A child of 4-7 years old looks around and asks where we came from,
how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
he can see,sense, and know both . Then, when the child typically enters
adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
knowledge as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ; this coupled
with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
willful decision to live for SELF. As years go by, the person gets
cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability. The person stays
in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
Creator which fills the void in life that was meant only for the
Creator to fill , instead of living how you want/living for
riches/living for prestige/ living for fame/ and living to get feelings
satisfied , often by using others .
That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
Regards.
wf3h
wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> '
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> : A child of 4-7 years old looks around and asks where we came from,
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both . Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
> live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
> how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ; this coupled
> with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
> cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
> pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
> regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability. The person stays
> in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
> willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
> and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
> 'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
> the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
> Creator
wel, i'm glad we got this straightened out....
of course, it doesn't address the fact that christians owned slaves
for 19 of that religions 20 centuries...strange how the most immoral
crime in human history isn't relevant to belief in god, or in
christian morality.
Cheezits
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
No, that is *not* how it happened for me. I became an atheist when I
realized that the only reason I ever believed in God was because other
people did.
Sue
--
"It's not smart or correct, but it's one of the things that
make us what we are." - Red Green
loua...@yahoo.com
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> '
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
As a mind-reader, you'd make a good bicycle repairman. Ever thought of
asking some atheists how they became atheists (just as you would,
frex, ask golfers how they became golfers) instead of telling them
what they think based on no information?
Sir Frederick
>ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
>'
>
>REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
The situation is not that simple :
1. Peoples' brains are as different, if not more so, than the
rest of their bodies.
2. Thus different people respond differently to the many
different god stories available.
3. Some may not find the god stories practiced to produce
any credible "religious feelings", others may.
We can no longer afford to live in medieval times,
explaining the situation with folk theories.
Kermit
wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> '
One of the several profound confusions biblical literalists have, is
the way they and other humans think and function. They are almost
completely introspectively blind.
People don't "choose" to believe anything.
You couldn't choose to believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn (Bless
her Hoofiness!) to save your immortal soul.
And we don't choose to be gay or straight, either. We *do choose how
to behave.
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> : A child of 4-7 years old looks around and asks where we came from,
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both .
Actually, I didn't know for some years that there was anything but
Bible Believing ChristiansŠ and sinners wallowing in deliberate
decadence.
> Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
> live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
> how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ;
Actually, by the time I was thirteen I had realized that the adults
around me were insane. They asserted things which were clearly
contrary to fact ("Men have one less rib than women") and were moral
hypocrites, slaver wannabees, and obsessed with other people's sex
lives.
> this coupled
> with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
> willful decision to live for SELF.
As the years went by, I investigated other religious paths, studied
Greek in the university, and finally decided that the Zen path - the
way of something-like-religion but without superstition or gods or
rituals was the only path that suited me.
> As years go by, the person gets
> cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
> pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
> regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability.
Actually we atheists typically have no choice but to hold ourselves
morally responsible for our decisions, since we do not have the
convenient out of having God forgive us. The fundamentalists who
raised me didn't have to right their wrongs or suffer the consequences
(unless caught). They only had to fell guilty and convince themselves
that God forgave them. In fact, since God always conveniently matched
their own prejudices, most of their behavior was godly. Just ask 'em.
> The person stays
> in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
> willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
> and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
> 'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
> the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
> Creator which fills the void in life that was meant only for the
> Creator to fill , instead of living how you want/living for
> riches/living for prestige/ living for fame/ and living to get feelings
> satisfied , often by using others .
What void? You sound like that junkie roommate I had decades ago. He
couldn't understand how the rest of us "filled the void" he filled
with heroin. He later gave it up and filled the void with college,
BTW.
>
> That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> if their WILL allows them to.
Atheism isn't a lifestyle anymore than not believing in leprechauns is
a lifestyle.
> People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy
It's not an argument; it's an assertion. One which happens to be true,
but I agree that it's trivially so. Might as well say that babies
don't care about fashion or politics. That only means something when
they have other options.
> and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
Umm... no. We who are atheists are *atheist because we have no belief
in gods. Do you spend much time distancing yourself from leprechauns?
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
Why would my pride demonstrate the existence of gods?
What would I rebel against?
>
> Regards.
This is off topic. Many of our regular champions of scientific
methodology are theists. This newsgroup's focus is science and its
dialog with the irrational. Theists can do perfectly good science.
Kermit
Mark VandeWettering
This, of course, a complete fantasy.
I'll tell you a related story. When I was young, say 8 or 10, I was
fascinated by all sorts of things. I grew up during the space race, and
so was fascinated by space and astronomy. I was also an avid reader,
and one of the early books I read was Chariots of the Gods, by Erich von
Daniken, which had been published a few years before. It told of a
world where ancient astronauts visited earth, giving primitive Earthlings
the knowledge to build the pyramids and Stonehenge. My eight year old
imagination loved the idea.
The funny thing was, it was rubbish, and by age 12 or 13, I could see
it was rubbish. As I matured, I grew to recognize von Daniken's claims
for what they were: a disguised form of racism. They are a claim that
humans simply weren't smart enough to do the things which they had done.
It's a claim based upon hubris: "well, if I, a modern man can't build a
pyramid, how could those old savages 5000 years ago do so?"
So, I was forced to abandon the world of ancient astronauts, and consider
a different, and in many ways more interesting universe. A universe where
ancient Egyptians and Mayans watched the heavens and constructed their own
cities, their own monuments to their rulers and Gods. I'm still fascinated
by both civilizations, something which I genuinely credit Von Daniken for.
But his beliefs are like believing in the Easter Bunny, and nobody should
carry that kind of belief into adulthood.
Religion? It's exactly the same.
Mark
Kermit
Fundamentalists are typically incapable of putting themselves into
another's shoes. They don't actually seem aware that there *are other
viewpoints. And so while you and I worry that we may not understand
others well enough, they assume that others have the same motives as
the fundies themselves.
So: you become an atheist because you want to party and get drunk and
get in Ellie's pants (or her brother Billy). And of *course you still
believe in Gawd - doesn't everybody? And anyone who claims the bible
says something other than what it obviously says ("Just ask me"), then
they are lying and distortin' and interpretin' it for their own
decadent pleasure. And all pleasure is decadent.
Once one disconnects one's gestalt from reality, it can be simplified
to no end.
Kermit
richardal...@googlemail.com
wrote:
So what do you think happens to someone when they find that people
they had been brought up to trust had been systematically lying to
them for years?
Read Glenn Morton's account of why he abandoned creationism, and
almost lost his faith.
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
Do you think that systematic dishonesty is something to which
Christians aspire, or that a dislike of such dishonesty marks someone
as an atheist?
RF
Lee Jay
wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> '
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> : A child of 4-7 years old looks around and asks where we came from,
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) .
Gee...I wonder why my child has never done anything of the kind.
> The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both .
How come I didn't know any of this, even though I was taught it?
> Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge...
Since I started to reject this stuff by the age of 6, I falsify your
claim.
> ... as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
> live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
> how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ;
I'll be I've lived a far more moral life than you have, and also more
moral than 95% of devout religious people.
> this coupled
> with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
> willful decision to live for SELF.
I went to religious school for 8 years (hint - they didn't teach
"atheistic philosophies" there), and I was also persecuted in public
school for not being religious enough. Again, your ridiculous
fantasies are falsified.
> As years go by, the person gets
> cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
> pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
> regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability.
And pretending there is a creator offers the benefit that you can kill
anyone you want, provided you believe you are doing god's will.
That's a major part of the history of most religions.
> The person stays
> in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
> willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
> and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
> 'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
> the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
> Creator which fills the void in life that was meant only for the
> Creator to fill , instead of living how you want/living for
> riches/living for prestige/ living for fame/ and living to get feelings
> satisfied , often by using others .
Can I have some dressing with that word salad?
> That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
Again, how come I have never had this knowledge of a creator, and how
come my child has never asked me anything whatsoever about any of the
subjects you mention? If people aren't "born atheist", then to which
of the thousands of religions are they born, with the intrinsic
knowledge of that religion?
Lee Jay
John Bode
wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> '
>
> That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
>
> Regards.
I call Loki. Otherwise this guy's got Ray-level mental health
issues.
er...@swva.net
Is there some reason you felt you had to publish such a bunch of
phoney baloney? When I was an atheist, it was based entirely on lack
of evidence. There is still no evidence; I'm just Christian because
I am happier that way. Where and why do you dredge up such
contemptible, childish crap? Do you have any evidence at all that
that is how one "becomes an atheist?" Has anybody _ever_ told you
that what you said is why they became an atheist?
I suspect you are a liar.
Eric Root
Walter Bushell
<da3679b4-d25a-4cea...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Lee Jay <ljfi...@msn.com> wrote:
> Again, how come I have never had this knowledge of a creator, and how
> come my child has never asked me anything whatsoever about any of the
> subjects you mention? If people aren't "born atheist", then to which
> of the thousands of religions are they born, with the intrinsic
> knowledge of that religion?
Solipsism.
Martin Andersen
Inez
wrote:
Actually not. People become atheists because of Donald Trump's
hairpiece, which proves there is no God.
> People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
I'm surprised to learn that your God was created by pride and willful
rebellion. Do you worship Che' Guevara or something?
Davej
wrote:
>[...]
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become
> atheists
Oh, did you have another vision? It's from too many beers.
skyeyes
Ah, but that's not the fundy way, louanne. They tell you what you
think, and why you think it, because otherwise maybe you'd come up
with answers/statements they're not programmed to respond to.
Don't forget, this is all from a script. These people don't think
this stuff up independently. I grew up a christian fundamentalist,
and I was taught exactly the same arguments 40+ years ago.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
skyeyes
The latter. This fundyloon has been bothering us over on alt.atheism
for several months. Now apparently he's found t.o. But he's
absolutely serious. Unfortunately, he doesn't know how to think; he
just parrots the same old fundy propaganda that I grew up with. They
never learn anything new.
Desertphile
in Lake Villa) wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
I was born that way. So were you.
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
Iain
wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
One is born an atheist.
> It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> : A child of 4-7 years old
Yon kid's belike an atheist already.
> looks around and asks where we came from,
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) .
Sometimes. Sometimes the forebears just tell the child ere he asks.
> The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design
Horseshit. This screed is turnin into pish.
> implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both.
How?
> Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge
Tha's wierd 'cause I was an atheist ere I was pubesy.
~Iain
Rusty Sites
> '
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> : A child of 4-7 years old looks around and asks where we came from,
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both . Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge
But you still display the knowledge and wisdom of a child. That's great.
Vosotros
"Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInL...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26489-477...@storefull-3237.bay.webtv.net...
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
Children are born agnostic, believing whatever you tell them to believe, and
not believing whatever you tell them should not be believed. Lacking the the
skills to think rationally, children look to adults for their answers, and
if they tell them there is a god, that's what they believe. As they grow
older they may or may not break away from their original beliefs, but that
all depends on what they learn as they grow up. If they learn to be curious,
think for themselves, and question authority, they probably will change. If
they are told to not be curious, conform, and respect authority over
anything else, they will probably be compliant to whatever authority asserts
itself.
My children grow up in an agnostic household, and have never asked any
question on their origins that would assume the supernatural. We have never
told them that any god their friends might believe in does not exist, we
just tell them we don't believe the same way they do, here is what we
belive, and that they must draw their own conclusions as they become adults.
> '
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> : A child of 4-7 years old looks around and asks where we came from,
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both .
That kind of begs the question as to why "getting them young" is so
important to religionists of all stripes. If what you said was true,
Christians and others would not worry that the longer a child goes without
proper religious training the less likely they are to believe.
I also wonder why, then, did not humans in their infancy as a species become
drawn to God sooner. Most of our ancestral history is devoid of a
monotheistic belief or our genesis from such a god. If a child intrinsically
knows god created them, why did little Sumerian children believe we were
crapped out by a large turtle and worship golden goats?
Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
> live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
> how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ; this coupled
> with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
> willful decision to live for SELF. As years go by, the person gets
> cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
> pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
> regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability. The person stays
> in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
> willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
> and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
> 'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
> the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
> Creator which fills the void in life that was meant only for the
> Creator to fill , instead of living how you want/living for
> riches/living for prestige/ living for fame/ and living to get feelings
> satisfied , often by using others .
>
> That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
Maybe next time instead of insulting people's intelligence, you could talk
to an actual atheist and find out why they believe as they do.
Sketch System
wrote:
> That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
Please explain how people are born theist.
max maypo
news:26489-477...@storefull-3237.bay.webtv.net:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
I always figured it was strong genes, good luck, and clean livin'
--
max
Greg G.
> > Lee Jay <ljfin...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >> Again, how come I have never had this knowledge of a creator, and how
> >> come my child has never asked me anything whatsoever about any of the
> >> subjects you mention? If people aren't "born atheist", then to which
> >> of the thousands of religions are they born, with the intrinsic
> >> knowledge of that religion?
>
> > Solipsism.
>
> That, in itself, is not a religion.
Who are you to say that my solipsism isn't a religion?
Ptet
>From his other posts, he seems to be "real".
Common creationist tactic... At all times bear false witness about the
beliefs of others, and then use any responses he receives as evidence
of "persecution".
If he wasn't so insecure in his actually belief in this God chap he
wouldn't have to be such a twunt.
P
Robert Carnegie
Who indeed??? But I (believing in myself) put it to you: do you
evangelise? I'm guessing no? Well then.
Robert Carnegie
Mark VandeWettering wrote:
> I'll tell you a related story. When I was young, say 8 or 10, I was
> fascinated by all sorts of things. I grew up during the space race, and
> so was fascinated by space and astronomy. I was also an avid reader,
> and one of the early books I read was Chariots of the Gods, by Erich von
> Daniken, which had been published a few years before. It told of a
> world where ancient astronauts visited earth, giving primitive Earthlings
> the knowledge to build the pyramids and Stonehenge. My eight year old
> imagination loved the idea.
>
> The funny thing was, it was rubbish, and by age 12 or 13, I could see
> it was rubbish. As I matured, I grew to recognize von Daniken's claims
> for what they were: a disguised form of racism. They are a claim that
> humans simply weren't smart enough to do the things which they had done.
> It's a claim based upon hubris: "well, if I, a modern man can't build a
> pyramid, how could those old savages 5000 years ago do so?"
I'm not completely familiar with the work, but I think the criticism
usually is cast in terms of what brown-skinned humans, specifically,
would or wouldn't be able to do.
Robert Carnegie
> Actually, by the time I was thirteen I had realized that the adults
> around me were insane. They asserted things which were clearly
> contrary to fact ("Men have one less rib than women") and were moral
> hypocrites, slaver wannabees, and obsessed with other people's sex
> lives.
Who isn't? But, I apologise if I took you through this before - the
rib thing: really? 'Cause it is on the Answers In Genesis list of bad
arguments as one made mostly against creationists by evolutionists,
rather than the other way around.
Now I regularly argue that everyone who had any wits and believed the
earth is flat is dead, and that may apply to your spare-rib elders.
But on the other hand, it would be kinda fun to organise a campaign of
those folks to write to AIG to put them right on the matter.
I think AIG also had an article - someone did - "pointing out" that
ribs can grow back, missing the point that no one knows how many ribs
Adam took into the grave, it easily could be one fewer than anyone
else (if it happened which it didn't), and if we were conceived as
homonculi of our parents' physical state at time of conception rather
than their DNA then before long we'd mostly be born bald, wrinkled,
covered in unpleasant sticky substances... wait a minute. :-)
Jim Lovejoy
7a66f0...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
Shouldn't that make them become satanists, because any universe where
Donald Trump's hairpiece exists, evil must be in charge?
John Wilkins
> Greg G. wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 1:21?pm, Martin Andersen <d...@ikke.nu> wrote:
> > > Walter Bushell wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <da3679b4-d25a-4cea-8400-ea5f59c84...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > ?Lee Jay <ljfin...@msn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Again, how come I have never had this knowledge of a creator, and how
> > > >> come my child has never asked me anything whatsoever about any of the
> > > >> subjects you mention? ?If people aren't "born atheist", then to which
> > > >> of the thousands of religions are they born, with the intrinsic
> > > >> knowledge of that religion?
> > >
> > > > Solipsism.
> > >
> > > That, in itself, is not a religion.
> >
> > Who are you to say that my solipsism isn't a religion?
>
> Who indeed??? But I (believing in myself) put it to you: do you
> evangelise? I'm guessing no? Well then.
He does, but to other aspects of himself.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
John Wilkins
Tiny Bulcher
> Sketch System <sketch.sys...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 5:46 am, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
> > wrote:
>
> > > That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> > > if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> > > fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> > > whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
>
> > Please explain how people are born theist.
>
> They inherit it from their parents...
Who was it leapt from the womb crying 'God be glorified'?
fnord
Gregory A Greenman
@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Tiny Bulcher <alycidon9
@btinternet.com> declared...
That was me, but I meant it as a joke.
--
Greg
----
http://www.spencerbooksellers.com
greg00 -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Noelie S. Alito
But...but...I thought you were 27!
Noelie
--
<myname>2007@<capital_of_Texas>.rr.com
"Rhyming with 'goalie' for a fraction of a Neptunian year."
loua...@yahoo.com
> > > > Please explain how people are born theist.
>
> > > They inherit it from their parents...
>
> > Who was it leapt from the womb crying 'God be glorified'?
>
> That was me, but I meant it as a joke.
I think a more usual translation is "it's COLD! and BRIGHT! I HATE it
out here!"
The Enigmatic One
DaveInL...@webtv.net says...
>That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
>if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
>fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
>whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
Holy shit!
You're amazingly stupid!
-Tim
John Wilkins
Walter Bushell
Walter Bushell
<78a06442-8a2d-4a2f...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"loua...@yahoo.com" <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"PAIN!"
John Wilkins
Martin Kaletsch
Funny, I still say that every morning!
--
"It was the laugh of the Elder Gods observing their creature man and noting
their omissions, miscalculations and mistakes." Fritz Leiber
Jackson Pillock
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> '
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both . Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
> live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
> how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ; this coupled
> with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
> willful decision to live for SELF. As years go by, the person gets
> cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
> pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
> regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability. The person stays
> in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
> willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
> and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
> 'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
> the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
> Creator which fills the void in life that was meant only for the
> Creator to fill , instead of living how you want/living for
> riches/living for prestige/ living for fame/ and living to get feelings
> satisfied , often by using others .
>
> if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
>
Total rubbish. I was brought up in a secular, but very moral
household. Neither my mother nor my father ever expressed any
religious faith to me, nor were any of my four grandparents
particularly interested in religion of any sort. None of my aunts or
uncles is a god-botherer. Yet somehow, we all lead basically moral
lives. Why? Can it just possibly be that there actually is no god, and
that people can be moral without imagining one?
You are making the same old, tired mistake: confusing morality with
truth. One becomes an atheist by assuming there is no god. We don't
become God, or kill God, or rebel against God. We just assume there
aren't any gods. For us, 'no god' is the case. That's all 'atheist'
means.
Some of us also despise religion. That's a separate matter. As it
happens, I like and admire many people of faith. I think they're
wrong, but I don't get in their face about it (unless, like you, they
seem to want me to), because they also lead moral lives. I recognise
that I am also influenced by great fictions. For instance, I think
Voltaire makes a good case, in Candide, that we should 'cultivate our
own gardens.' If someone else wants to 'turn the other cheek' and
'love thine enemy' _and_ they believe in God, that's cool with me,
since I also accept many of Jesus' moral teachings. I can do that
without a total leap of faith, though I recognise that I am acting on
a belief.
Since you seem to like hackneyed arguments, I'll give you one. It's a
thought experiment for you to carry out. Imagine there was no Zeus.
How would you behave?
loua...@yahoo.com
> On 3 Jan, 13:46, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:
>
>
>
> > ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
(entire rant clipped for length. Meaningful raised eyebrow, i.e. "not
to yell at you, but please do this yourself next time.")
> Total rubbish. I was brought up in a secular, but very moral
> household. Neither my mother nor my father ever expressed any
> religious faith to me, nor were any of my four grandparents
> particularly interested in religion of any sort. None of my aunts or
> uncles is a god-botherer. Yet somehow, we all lead basically moral
> lives. Why? Can it just possibly be that there actually is no god, and
> that people can be moral without imagining one?
I think you may have scared him.
Since it's only been two days since the initial post, it's a little
early to be doing this. But what the heck. Let's do a straw poll on
why he hasn't turned up here since:
1. Creationist post-and-run.
2. As a webtv user, unable to find his way back here.
Kilmir
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
>
> Regards.
I wasn't aware of religions or other supersticious nonsense for most
years of my childhood. As far as I can remember by the time I was able
to put words in writing I had punctured the myth of
"Sinterklaas" (Santa Claus never had a big foothold in my country when
I was young) and most faerytales were just that, faerytales.
My parents were atheists and though they mentioned beliefs of others
it all seemed so far fetched that I never thought anyone would be
idiotic enough to actually belief that anything like that was real.
The world as it was working and the small things I caught about
science made abundantly clear to me that nature was a proper working
system for as far as I was concerned which didn't need outside
interference or supreme aliens to explain.
It wasn't till I was around 12 that I came into contact with actual
believers of religions like muslims, christians and even a jew. I
never talked much with most of them about their beliefs, mostly
because they didn't have a real clue about what they were believing,
but they were told it was true by their parents and religious leaders.
It still seemed all a bit weird and far fetched to me so I didn't
really bother with it again for quite a few years.
I did read stuff like "god"stories from ancient greece, the christian
bible, the norwegian gods, etc. They all fascinated me, but not as
real stories but as fantasy. In my youth I was not able to
differentiate between those works and works of fantasy; which I also
read a lot in that time. And to be quite honest, I still can't.
In my college years the whole religion concepts seemed so out of touch
with reality I started taking believers not seriously anymore. The few
rare believers I encountered never had any decent answers or just
repeated statements ignoring logic or evidences.
None ever convinced me they actually had a foot to stand on and I
think I got one or two to the brink of at least deism and hopefully
atheism.
In all those years I've build up a certain reservation for religious
people. I know they believe in something that's out of touch with
reality. That means there is a point where they are not able to make
logical conclusions or decisions.
In effect, that means that I never completely trust religious people.
I can't because they are unable or unwilling to be honest to
themselves.
So how did I get to be an atheist?
Simple, I was never indoctrinated but grew up with parents that valued
critical thinking and logic and encouraged me to make my own
decisions. When you have an objective view of things, religions are
nothing more then the faerytales of others with as much basis in
reality.
Kilmir
#1944
Ymir
j.wil...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
> Noelie S. Alito <noe...@deadspam.com> wrote:
>
> > skyeyes wrote:
> > > On Jan 3, 8:29 am, "louan...@yahoo.com" <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
> > >>> '
> > >>> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> > >> As a mind-reader, you'd make a good bicycle repairman. Ever thought of
> > >> asking some atheists how they became atheists (just as you would,
> > >> frex, ask golfers how they became golfers) instead of telling them
> > >> what they think based on no information?
> > >
> > > Ah, but that's not the fundy way, louanne. They tell you what you
> > > think, and why you think it, because otherwise maybe you'd come up
> > > with answers/statements they're not programmed to respond to.
> > >
> > > Don't forget, this is all from a script. These people don't think
> > > this stuff up independently. I grew up a christian fundamentalist,
> > > and I was taught exactly the same arguments 40+ years ago.
> > >
> > > Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> > > skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
> > >
> >
> > But...but...I thought you were 27!
> >
> In what base?
All your base are belong to us.
André
nmp
Jackson Pillock
> On Jan 5, 6:12 am, Jackson Pillock <jacksonpill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 3 Jan, 13:46, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:
>
> > > ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
>
> (entire rant clipped for length. Meaningful raised eyebrow, i.e. "not
> to yell at you, but please do this yourself next time.")
>
You have to ask Google to show you the quoted text, which almost makes
up for it being shit.
I suppose I should find another newsreader. Any good free ones you
know of?
>
> I think you may have scared him.
>
> Since it's only been two days since the initial post, it's a little
> early to be doing this. But what the heck. Let's do a straw poll on
> why he hasn't turned up here since:
>
> 1. Creationist post-and-run.
>
> 2. As a webtv user, unable to find his way back here.
1.
max maypo
news:798c26cf-f5ed-43d2...@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
> I suppose I should find another newsreader. Any good free ones you
> know of?
all of these are free:
XNews (http://xnews.newsguy.com/)
40tude Dialog (http://www.40tude.com/dialog/)
XanaNews (http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/xananews.htm)
I've been using XNews for years, and am 100% satisfied
--
max
Jackson Pillock
> Jackson Pillock <jacksonpill...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:798c26cf-f5ed-43d2...@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I suppose I should find another newsreader. Any good free ones you
> > know of?
>
> all of these are free:
> XNews (http://xnews.newsguy.com/)
> 40tude Dialog (http://www.40tude.com/dialog/)
> XanaNews (http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/xananews.htm)
> I've been using XNews for years, and am 100% satisfied
>
> --
>
> max
Okay, I'll give it a go. Thanks!
Grandbank
(snip)
>
> In my college years the whole religion concepts seemed so out of touch
> with reality I started taking believers not seriously anymore. The few
> rare believers I encountered never had any decent answers or just
> repeated statements ignoring logic or evidences.
More or less parallel to my own experience, except mirrored. Until
part way through college I was the one making "repeated statements" in
support of religion. At a certain point I began to actually listen to
the argument qua argument and realized that I was on the losing side.
Switched. Spent a brief time reassuring myself that if was wrong then
surely God would recognise the honesty of my doubt. Soon threw away
this crutch.
> In all those years I've build up a certain reservation for religious
> people. I know they believe in something that's out of touch with
> reality. That means there is a point where they are not able to make
> logical conclusions or decisions.
> In effect, that means that I never completely trust religious people.
> I can't because they are unable or unwilling to be honest to
> themselves.
I find I have to fight this myself. I'm not sure it is entirely fair,
given the power of lifelong indoctrination and the social
acceptability of compartmentalization. I confess that I do, however,
keep a little mental asterisk beside individuals that I know are very
religious.
> So how did I get to be an atheist?
By having some capacity for seeing myself as others might. It wasn't
a view I liked.
KP
Cj
news:6327f38a-a672-4343...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 4:08 pm, John Bode <john_b...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 3, 8:46 am, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
>> wrote:> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
>> > if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
>> > fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
>> > whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
>>
>> > Regards.
>>
>> issues.
>
>>From his other posts, he seems to be "real".
>
> Common creationist tactic... At all times bear false witness about the
> beliefs of others, and then use any responses he receives as evidence
> of "persecution".
>
> If he wasn't so insecure in his actually belief in this God chap he
> wouldn't have to be such a twunt.
>
> P
>
What are the pragmatics for a twunt? Is a twunt a transitional form?
Cj
Cj
news:BrKdnUr0lLb...@giganews.com...
She is. You just don't understand intelligent design.
Cj
Kent
Cory Albrecht
A quick scan of google groups shows that this is his normal manner, 99%
of the time. He posts screeds or short little "You're going to
Hell!"/"Focus on the Family" type comments in dating news groups.
Rarely, if ever, does he reenter the same thread.
>
> 2. As a webtv user, unable to find his way back here.
>
Since he does, on the very rare, respond to people who have responded to
him, that shows he's not quite as dense as the normal webtv user. On the
other paw, his further responses are generally rehashings (though not
copypastas) of his original screed.
Jackson Pillock
news:Xns9A1CBE118A...@69.28.186.120:
>
> all of these are free:
> XNews (http://xnews.newsguy.com/)
> 40tude Dialog (http://www.40tude.com/dialog/)
> XanaNews (http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/xananews.htm)
> I've been using XNews for years, and am 100% satisfied
>
Okay, I'm still getting used to it, but seems pretty good so far.
Cheers for the heads-up.
conrad
wrote:
> ATHEISM... and how you got to be one...
>
> REPLY: It happened the same way it happens for all who become atheists
> how did the universe get here, what is our purpose in being here , and
> what happens after we die (physically) . The child intrinsically
> knows that existence implies a creator and design implies a Designer --
> he can see,sense, and know both .
What evidence do you have to support this claim?
> Then, when the child typically enters
> adolesence or sooner...he/she gradually starts to suppress that inherent
> knowledge as well as the moral conscience because the person desires to
What evidence do you have to support that claim?
> live a completely autonomous lifestyle with no one telling him or her
> how to live , regardless of whether its moral or not ; this coupled
> with being taught atheistic philosophies in school helps solidify the
> willful decision to live for SELF.
What evidence do you have to support this claim?
> As years go by, the person gets
> cemented in this personal philosophical bias and discovers that
> pretending there is no Creator offers maximum lifestyle convenience
> regarding choices with no ultimate moral culpability.
What evidence do you have to support this claim?
>The person stays
> in this mindset/commitment unless he awakens to what took place , is
> willing to end the charade , and realizes that his/her ultimate purpose
> and meaning isnt tied up in SELF interests/making himself out to be
> 'god' , but , in drawing nearer to the personal Creator in whos image
> the person is made in and seeking a personal relationship with The
> Creator which fills the void in life that was meant only for the
> Creator to fill , instead of living how you want/living for
> riches/living for prestige/ living for fame/ and living to get feelings
> satisfied , often by using others .
Yeah, load of babble.
>
> That is how people learn to become atheists, and, how they abandon it
> if their WILL allows them to. People being 'born atheist' is a gross
> fallacy and is just an excuse for distancing oneself from the Creator
> whom they know must exist due to ones pride and willful rebellion.
>
Your conclusion is draw from unsupported claims. Bravo!
I'm more curious why you decided to post this here?
I thought talk.origins was more oriented toward
discussion of evolutionary theory. In which case,
what the hell does atheism have to do with that?
> Regards.
--
conrad
Noelie S. Alito
> I nominate this for Post of the Month.
>
> Kent
>
> On Jan 4, 5:00 am, Kilmir <Kil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Seconded.
Kermit
> Kermit wrote:
> > Actually, by the time I was thirteen I had realized that the adults
> > around me were insane. They asserted things which were clearly
> > contrary to fact ("Men have one less rib than women") and were moral
> > hypocrites, slaver wannabees, and obsessed with other people's sex
> > lives.
>
> Who isn't? But, I apologise if I took you through this before - the
> rib thing: really? 'Cause it is on the Answers In Genesis list of bad
> arguments as one made mostly against creationists by evolutionists,
> rather than the other way around.
AIG likely wasn't around 45 years ago.
>
> Now I regularly argue that everyone who had any wits and believed the
> earth is flat is dead, and that may apply to your spare-rib elders.
> But on the other hand, it would be kinda fun to organise a campaign of
> those folks to write to AIG to put them right on the matter.
It's fun thinking about it, but I'm disinclined to look those folks up
- those who haven't gone to their Heavenly Reward®.
My mom told me that if God meant for animals to be in the house, he
wouldn't have given them fur.
When I told my Grandpa (a preacher) that we'd soon be on the moon
(October, 1957), he growled "Men will never walk on the moon! The
bible doesn't say anything about men walking on the moon!"
A few years later (about the time we walked on the moon, now that I
think about it) he told me that "The Russians invented rock and roll,
to brainwash American youth thru the use of base emotions."
The youth director told the church youth group that if he went on a
date, he'd go as far as a girl would let him, but he wouldn't marry
her afterwards, because she wouldn't be pure... He also spoke with
delight of the day he would be able to watch the unbelievers suffer in
Hell.
When I wore a peace sign, I was chastised because it meant I thought
the war could be stopped, and if I thought that war could be stopped,
then I thought all wars could be stopped, which goes against the
bible, which says there will be wars until the end of time.
<sigh>
I tried to understand them up till about the age of ten. After that, I
just became more and more dumbfounded, flabbergasted, and dismayed.
>
> I think AIG also had an article - someone did - "pointing out" that
> ribs can grow back, missing the point that no one knows how many ribs
> Adam took into the grave, it easily could be one fewer than anyone
> else (if it happened which it didn't), and if we were conceived as
> homonculi of our parents' physical state at time of conception rather
> than their DNA then before long we'd mostly be born bald, wrinkled,
> covered in unpleasant sticky substances... wait a minute. :-)
Don't ever underestimate the ability of a biblical literalist to
believe the idiotic and demonstrably false. It doesn't bother me that
they are concrete thinkers; what bothers me is that they believe
concrete things which are easily shown to be untrue.
Kermit