Re: Arabs/Muslims seeking UN SANCTIONS over the Mohammad cartoons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Khubla
Jeddah-21411,Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Tel:6900001, fax:2751953
E-mail : cab...@oic-oci.org
Let these bronze age people know how you feel.
Khubla
"Réné" <rene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mCpEf.9609$Iw6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> (what exactly are they putting in the water over there?)
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Arab News, 30 January 2006 -- The Muslim world's two main political
> bodies, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) and the Arab
> League, said yesterday they were seeking a UN resolution, backed by
> possible sanctions, to protect religions. This follows the outcry caused
> by publication in Scandinavia of cartoons denigrating Prophet Muhammad
> (peace be upon him).
>
> Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, secretary-general of the 57-member OIC told
> reporters in Cairo that the OIC would "ask the UN General Assembly to pass
> a resolution banning attacks on religious beliefs."
>
> Ahmad Ben Helli, assistant secretary-general of the Arab League, confirmed
> that contacts were under way for such a proposal to be made to the United
> Nations.
>
> "Consultations are currently taking place at the highest level between
> Arab countries and the OIC in order to ask the UN to adopt a binding
> resolution banning contempt for religious beliefs and providing for
> sanctions to be imposed on contravening countries or institutions," he
> said.
>
> Twelve cartoons defiling the Prophet, published in Denmark's
> Jyllands-Posten newspaper last September and reprinted in a Norwegian
> magazine earlier this month, caused uproar in the Muslim world where any
> image of the Prophet is considered blasphemous.
>
> MWL Chief Writes to Annan
>
> The Makkah-based Muslim World League said yesterday that it had sent a
> letter to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, urging the United Nations and
> its subsidiary organizations to stop smear campaigns against Islam and
> Prophet Muhammad.
>
> "The MWL, which represents Muslim minorities and Islamic organizations
> around the world, hereby conveys to you, the United Nations and other
> international organizations the indignation and outrage of Muslims over
> the smear campaigns being launched by a section of the Western media
> against Islam and Prophet Muhammad," MWL Secretary-General Dr. Abdullah
> Al-Turki said in a letter to UN chief Annan.
>
> Al-Turki said the MWL had received several messages from Muslims in
> Denmark and Norway and other European countries denouncing the
> sacrilegious cartoons. He urged the UN to keep a watch on such
> anti-Islamic campaigns.
>
> "International law is replete with resolutions which seek to promote
> peaceful coexistence and which prohibit abuse of religion and tarnishing
> their images," the MWL chief said.
>
> Officials in Muslim countries and various religious bodies have expressed
> anger at the cartoons, while the editors of the newspapers have defended
> their publications on the grounds of freedom of expression.
>
> Muslim wrath has spread rapidly in the Middle East with Gulf retailers
> pulling Danish products off their shelves and protesters gathering outside
> Danish embassies.
>
> Syria, Bahrain Join Protest
>
> Syria and Bahrain were the latest Arab countries to join the protest.
> "Syria calls on the Danish government to take the necessary measures to
> punish the culprits. The dialogue of civilizations is based on mutual
> respect," said an official quoted by the Syrian News Agency yesterday.
>
> The Bahraini Cabinet yesterday condemned the cartoons "which are a
> deliberate attack against the glorious Prophet Muhammad and have angered
> Muslims the world over."
>
> State Minister for Cabinet Affairs Sheikh Ahmed Al-Khalifa said the
> government "warned against the negative repercussions" of the cartoons.
>
> Libya Closes Embassy in Denmark
>
> Libya said yesterday it had decided to shut down its embassy in Denmark to
> protest the Danish government's silence about the cartoons.
>
> The Libyan Foreign Ministry added in a statement carried by the state news
> agency Jana that Tripoli will also take unspecified "economic measures"
> against Denmark.
>
> "Because the Danish media had continued to show disrespect to the Prophet
> and because the Danish authorities failed to take any responsible action
> on that, Libya decided to close its embassy in Copenhagen," the Foreign
> Ministry said.
>
> Jyllands-Posten's Explanation Letter
>
> Carsten Juste, editor in chief of Jyllands-Posten, meanwhile, is
> circulating a letter addressing Saudi consumers in his bid to offset the
> damage caused by the daily to his country's business. Instead of
> apologizing, Juste reiterated the paper's stand that the cartoons were
> published within the context of Danish dialogue about freedom of
> expression and were not meant to attack anybody's religion.
>
> Arab News received the statement from the Danish Embassy here, along with
> a covering letter from Ambassador Hans Klingenberg, which was posted on
> the Danish daily's website late Saturday night.
>
> "We at Jyllands-Posten feel sorry that the issue has reached this level.
> We repeat that our intention was never to abuse anybody and we respect
> freedom of religion as does the rest of Danish society," Juste said.
>
> Ambassador Klingenberg told Arab News that freedom of expression should
> not be misused to abuse other faiths.
>
> The ambassador emphasized his government's stand that condemns any
> expression, action or indication that attempt to demonize groups of people
> on the basis of their religion or ethnic background. He hoped that the
> boycott would not affect Saudi-Danish business.
>
> However, Al-Othaim Supermarket Manager Abdullah Al-Batthi said the Danish
> statement was not strong enough compared to the big damage caused by the
> cartoons. "Thirty percent of our imports are from Denmark and the boycott
> will have a big impact on Danish products in the Kingdom," Al-Batthi said.
>
> Karzai Backs Danish Position
>
> In Copenhagen, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said yesterday that
> caricatures of the Prophet were a mistake, but that he backed the Danish
> government's response to the controversy. Karzai's position, expressed
> after a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, was
> conciliatory.
>
> "Fogh Rasmussen explained Denmark's position on that, which was very good,
> very satisfactory to me as a Muslim," Karzai said.
>
> "He said he was very sorry for what happened, though of no choice to him
> or the people of Denmark," Karzai said.
>
> "The press is free here as we now have it in Afghanistan. There are things
> that the political system cannot control."
>
> "The mistake by the newspaper here was also corrected here in the form of
> apology, in the form of an editorial," Karzai added.
>
> Anchor Denies Danish Connection
>
> In a related development, Anchor Company said its milk powder comes from
> New Zealand, not from Denmark. The clarification comes as a result of
> reports about the boycott of Danish products which "have inadvertently
> included our New Zealand milk powder," the report said.
>
>
Carsten Troelsgaard
"Khubla" <khu...@adelphia.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:6PKdnamBmMb...@adelphia.com...
I've run hastily through the article, but as a Dane I'm quite in the middle
of it.
It's definately a decent thing not to make fun of religious groups, but I
/do/ think that the local christians that's got their fair share over the
years look back at it as an odd sort, but none the less one that can only be
expressed on a foundation of love and accept.
There may be specific muslim laws that prohibits visualizations of Muhamed,
but as too the covering up of women the muslim fashion, it is not and will
not be enforced as law in Denmark. When the muslims participate in their
part of the teasing by non-agressive means, we know they have become some of
ours - do put the economic pressure by sanctions, if you may - but leave it
at that.
Some Danes might think that the muslim societies are somewhat more discrete
in condemning terrorist actions comitted in the name of their religion, so
why don't they take a sip of cold water and a ponder on how they weight
their priorities.
Carsten
thissteve
Khubla wrote:
>
> > Arab News, 30 January 2006 -- The Muslim world's two main political
> > bodies, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) and the Arab
> > League, said yesterday they were seeking a UN resolution, backed by
> > possible sanctions, to protect religions.
Well, I agree with the sanctions, but not in the name of protecting
religion. Those cartoons were criminally unfunny and poorly drawn, and
a strong message must be sent.
David Ewan Kahana
[snip]
What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
whose newspapers publish these?
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_061802.asp
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
David
Robert J. Kolker
> Khubla wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
>
> Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
> whose newspapers publish these?
The Muslims in addition to being wakjobs are blooming hypocrites. I
wonder if there is any place in WOG hell for hypocrites.
Bob Kolker
Stuart
I think instead of 72 virgins they get 72 transvestites.
Stuart
Stuart
Khubla wrote:
> The Organization of The Islamic Conference :PO Box: 178,
> Jeddah-21411,Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
> Tel:6900001, fax:2751953
>
>
> E-mail : cab...@oic-oci.org
>
> Let these bronze age people know how you feel.
Now watch the gutter liberals come out of the closet.
Stuart
ash...@hotmail.com
To be fair, those cartoons are about the state of Israel and not the
jewish people.
They are as anti-semitic as a cartoon mocking Saddam Hussein is
anti-arab.
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> I think instead of 72 virgins they get 72 transvestites.
That is a dreadful thought. eeeech.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
A French newspaper rand the Danish cartoons. The editor was fired for
permitting it. The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
Tehren for Dhimi status.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
>
> To be fair, those cartoons are about the state of Israel and not the
> jewish people.
Some of the cartoons make use of the blood libel canard and elements of
-The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion-. The caricatures are
definitely anti-jewish.
By the way -The Protocols- are a best seller in Islamic countries along
with Sayid's -In the Shade of the Q'ran- which is the -Mein Kampf- of
the Wahabite movement.
Bob Kolker
Stuart
ash...@hotmail.com wrote:
> David Ewan Kahana wrote:
> > Khubla wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
> >
> > Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
> > whose newspapers publish these?
> >
> > http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_061802.asp
> > http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
> >
> >
> > David
>
> To be fair, those cartoons are about the state of Israel and not the
> jewish people.
To be fair you're either hopelessly naive or ignorant. Yup the gutter
liberals have come out of the closet. Right on cue.
I can count at least a half dozen Jewish stereotypes in those
cartoons..
Should I point them out to you?
Stuart
ash...@hotmail.com
Arab allies ironic.
I responded civilly, you replied in most insulting manner.
I'm interested in this topic, but if it's not going to be civil I'd
rather be doing something else.
Ochoco Mountains
Those cartoons are chock-full of racist anti-Jewish charicatures.
And I'm a liberal so rest assured, my reason for stating such is not
simply an excuse to whine about 'gutter liberals' (or any other kind).
This is not to say I care a whit about images of Mohammad being
published, nor do I particularly care about the aforementioned cartoons
published in the Arab press. But they are indeed full of racist
imagery.
Timberwoof
"thissteve" <this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Criminally"? Since when it is a criminal offense to publish unfunny cartoons?
Western civilization is filled with examples of people expressing their opinions
through precisely such cartoons.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
Timberwoof
"Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
> Tehren for Dhimi status.
What is Dhimi status?
Rune B
<now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>The Muslims in addition to being wakjobs are blooming hypocrites. I
>wonder if there is any place in WOG hell for hypocrites.
The real problem is that they don't understand how free speech works,
because they've never had it. They think the fact that european
governments won't apologize is a direct attack on them. Because
they're fucking hypersensitive religious whackjobs.
Rune B
<now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>A French newspaper rand the Danish cartoons. The editor was fired for
>permitting it. The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
>Tehren for Dhimi status.
He was fired by the owner who feared for his life.
Stuart
ash...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I find your fixation on a shadowy-cabal of 'gutter liberals' and their
> Arab allies ironic.
>
I'm not fixated on them.
What you wrote was utterly contemptable. I can only conclude you accept
the age-old hate mongering stereotypes of Jews.
If things were reversed, and it was Muslimssteoretypes portrayed in
Israeli newspapers the UN would be in emergency session in 5 minutes,
and the gutter liberals like you would be applauding.
> I responded civilly, you replied in most insulting manner.
You were insulting, and don't have the friggin' sense to apologize.
> I'm interested in this topic, but if it's not going to be civil I'd
> rather be doing something else.
Boo Hoo.
Stuart
Stuart
Timberwoof wrote:
> In article <44fsleF...@individual.net>,
> "Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
> > Tehren for Dhimi status.
>
> What is Dhimi status?
non-Muslims living in Muslim lands were granted a codified second
citizen or dhimi status.
Its amazing how quickly Europeans will throw their rights away. Of
course Hamas wants Seville to come back under Muslim rule. No doubt the
Spanish are seriously considering the possibility.
Stuart
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> He was fired by the owner who feared for his life.
A yes. Now I recognize the Frenchman. With his hands raised up in the
eleven oh five position. The French laid down on the backs for the
Germans, why not the Moslems also.
My wife worked for Waldengbooks when -Satanic Verses- was published. THe
Moslem thugs did the same thing then. Hate mail, wild demonstrations,
threats against the life of the author, the publisher and any bookstore
that carried -Satanic Verses-. I am happy to report that the management
of Waldenbooks did not give an inch to those bastards. In fact they
displayed the book even more prominently. The board of directors of
Waldenbooks does not have a single French member.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
Whackjobs that fly planes into tall building, strap on bombs and are
looking for nuclear weapons they can smuggle in. You ain't seen nothing
yet. Wait till they set off a nuke in NYC (where the Jews live).
Bob Kolker
>
Hoof-hearted
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
Yeah - it's obviously ok to show hostages being beheaded on video on Al
Jazeera, but not ok to show a few caricatures of the pedophile prophet.
>
> Bob Kolker
maff
But you left out both Jewish and Muslim Spanish citizens were expelled
by the Christians. Both were given refuge in North Africa and Turkey.
>
> Stuart
Robert J. Kolker
>
> But you left out both Jewish and Muslim Spanish citizens were expelled
> by the Christians. Both were given refuge in North Africa and Turkey.
That was then. What about now? Crusaders existed up to about 600 years
ago, but not since. Meanwhile the craziness of the Moslems is a DAILY
occurence recorded in newspapers and t.v..
Christianity is well detoxified and rendered tame by secular influences.
Can the same be said of al Islam?
Bob Kolker
maff
So how do you account for Adolf Bush and Benito Blair? Both prayed to
Jesus before bombing Iraq.
A Century Of U.S. Military Interventions: From Wounded Knee to
Afghanistan
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/9d53d6be8936ff5b
>
> Bob Kolker
Carsten Troelsgaard
"Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:44gqe7F...@individual.net...
> Rune B wrote:
>>
>>
>> He was fired by the owner who feared for his life.
>
> A yes. Now I recognize the Frenchman. With his hands raised up in the
> eleven oh five position. The French laid down on the backs for the
> Germans, why not the Moslems also.
The owner seems to be is of egyptian origin, and further the compagny seems
to be on the verge of bankrupcy - I don't think that it's an average french
position.
Carsten
Richard Smol
Carsten Troelsgaard wrote:
> "Khubla" <khu...@adelphia.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:6PKdnamBmMb...@adelphia.com...
> > The Organization of The Islamic Conference :PO Box: 178,
> > Jeddah-21411,Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
> > Tel:6900001, fax:2751953
> >
> >
> > E-mail : cab...@oic-oci.org
> >
> > Let these bronze age people know how you feel.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Réné" <rene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:mCpEf.9609$Iw6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> (what exactly are they putting in the water over there?)
> >> -------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Arab News, 30 January 2006 -- The Muslim world's two main political
> >> bodies, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) and the Arab
> >> League, said yesterday they were seeking a UN resolution, backed by
> >> by publication in Scandinavia of cartoons denigrating Prophet Muhammad
> >> (peace be upon him).
> >>
> >> Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, secretary-general of the 57-member OIC told
> >> reporters in Cairo that the OIC would "ask the UN General Assembly to
> >> pass a resolution banning attacks on religious beliefs."
> >>
> >> Ahmad Ben Helli, assistant secretary-general of the Arab League,
> >> confirmed that contacts were under way for such a proposal to be made to
> >> the United Nations.
> >>
> >> "Consultations are currently taking place at the highest level between
> >> Arab countries and the OIC in order to ask the UN to adopt a binding
> >> resolution banning contempt for religious beliefs and providing for
> >> sanctions to be imposed on contravening countries or institutions," he
> >> said.
> >>
> >> Twelve cartoons defiling the Prophet, published in Denmark's
> >> Jyllands-Posten newspaper last September and reprinted in a Norwegian
> >> magazine earlier this month, caused uproar in the Muslim world where any
> >> image of the Prophet is considered blasphemous.
> >>
> >> MWL Chief Writes to Annan
> >>
> >> The Makkah-based Muslim World League said yesterday that it had sent a
> >> letter to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, urging the United Nations and
> >> its subsidiary organizations to stop smear campaigns against Islam and
> >> Prophet Muhammad.
> >>
> >> "The MWL, which represents Muslim minorities and Islamic organizations
> >> around the world, hereby conveys to you, the United Nations and other
> >> international organizations the indignation and outrage of Muslims over
> >> the smear campaigns being launched by a section of the Western media
> >> against Islam and Prophet Muhammad," MWL Secretary-General Dr. Abdullah
> >> Al-Turki said in a letter to UN chief Annan.
> >>
> >> Al-Turki said the MWL had received several messages from Muslims in
> >> Denmark and Norway and other European countries denouncing the
> >> sacrilegious cartoons. He urged the UN to keep a watch on such
> >> anti-Islamic campaigns.
> >>
> >> "International law is replete with resolutions which seek to promote
> >> peaceful coexistence and which prohibit abuse of religion and tarnishing
> >> their images," the MWL chief said.
> >>
> >> Officials in Muslim countries and various religious bodies have expressed
> >> anger at the cartoons, while the editors of the newspapers have defended
> >> their publications on the grounds of freedom of expression.
> >>
> >> Muslim wrath has spread rapidly in the Middle East with Gulf retailers
> >> pulling Danish products off their shelves and protesters gathering
> >> outside Danish embassies.
> >>
> >> Syria, Bahrain Join Protest
> >>
> >> Syria and Bahrain were the latest Arab countries to join the protest.
> >> "Syria calls on the Danish government to take the necessary measures to
> >> punish the culprits. The dialogue of civilizations is based on mutual
> >> respect," said an official quoted by the Syrian News Agency yesterday.
> >>
> >> The Bahraini Cabinet yesterday condemned the cartoons "which are a
> >> deliberate attack against the glorious Prophet Muhammad and have angered
> >> Muslims the world over."
> >>
> >> State Minister for Cabinet Affairs Sheikh Ahmed Al-Khalifa said the
> >> government "warned against the negative repercussions" of the cartoons.
> >>
> >> Libya Closes Embassy in Denmark
> >>
> >> Libya said yesterday it had decided to shut down its embassy in Denmark
> >> to protest the Danish government's silence about the cartoons.
> >>
> >> The Libyan Foreign Ministry added in a statement carried by the state
> >> news agency Jana that Tripoli will also take unspecified "economic
> >> measures" against Denmark.
> >>
> >> "Because the Danish media had continued to show disrespect to the Prophet
> >> and because the Danish authorities failed to take any responsible action
> >> on that, Libya decided to close its embassy in Copenhagen," the Foreign
> >> Ministry said.
> >>
> >> Jyllands-Posten's Explanation Letter
> >>
> >> Carsten Juste, editor in chief of Jyllands-Posten, meanwhile, is
> >> circulating a letter addressing Saudi consumers in his bid to offset the
> >> damage caused by the daily to his country's business. Instead of
> >> apologizing, Juste reiterated the paper's stand that the cartoons were
> >> published within the context of Danish dialogue about freedom of
> >> expression and were not meant to attack anybody's religion.
> >>
> >> Arab News received the statement from the Danish Embassy here, along with
> >> a covering letter from Ambassador Hans Klingenberg, which was posted on
> >> the Danish daily's website late Saturday night.
> >>
> >> "We at Jyllands-Posten feel sorry that the issue has reached this level.
> >> We repeat that our intention was never to abuse anybody and we respect
> >> freedom of religion as does the rest of Danish society," Juste said.
> >>
> >> Ambassador Klingenberg told Arab News that freedom of expression should
> >> not be misused to abuse other faiths.
> >>
> >> The ambassador emphasized his government's stand that condemns any
> >> expression, action or indication that attempt to demonize groups of
> >> people on the basis of their religion or ethnic background. He hoped that
> >> the boycott would not affect Saudi-Danish business.
> >>
> >> However, Al-Othaim Supermarket Manager Abdullah Al-Batthi said the Danish
> >> statement was not strong enough compared to the big damage caused by the
> >> cartoons. "Thirty percent of our imports are from Denmark and the boycott
> >> will have a big impact on Danish products in the Kingdom," Al-Batthi
> >> said.
> >>
> >> Karzai Backs Danish Position
> >>
> >> In Copenhagen, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said yesterday that
> >> caricatures of the Prophet were a mistake, but that he backed the Danish
> >> government's response to the controversy. Karzai's position, expressed
> >> after a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, was
> >> conciliatory.
> >>
> >> "Fogh Rasmussen explained Denmark's position on that, which was very
> >> good, very satisfactory to me as a Muslim," Karzai said.
> >>
> >> "He said he was very sorry for what happened, though of no choice to him
> >> or the people of Denmark," Karzai said.
> >>
> >> "The press is free here as we now have it in Afghanistan. There are
> >> things that the political system cannot control."
> >>
> >> "The mistake by the newspaper here was also corrected here in the form of
> >> apology, in the form of an editorial," Karzai added.
> >>
> >> Anchor Denies Danish Connection
> >>
> >> In a related development, Anchor Company said its milk powder comes from
> >> New Zealand, not from Denmark. The clarification comes as a result of
> >> reports about the boycott of Danish products which "have inadvertently
> >> included our New Zealand milk powder," the report said.
>
> I've run hastily through the article, but as a Dane I'm quite in the middle
> of it.
> It's definately a decent thing not to make fun of religious groups, but I
> /do/ think that the local christians that's got their fair share over the
> years look back at it as an odd sort, but none the less one that can only be
> expressed on a foundation of love and accept.
Nonsense. Everybody has the right to be made fun of. Religions may have
a bit of a problem since there is totally no evidence to back them up,
but that is the problem of the believers, not others.
> There may be specific muslim laws that prohibits visualizations of Muhamed,
> but as too the covering up of women the muslim fashion, it is not and will
> not be enforced as law in Denmark.
Exactly. Why on earth should a non-Muslim care what the Muslims have
written in their holy book? It's ionly relevant to their own religion.
> When the muslims participate in their
> part of the teasing by non-agressive means, we know they have become some of
> ours - do put the economic pressure by sanctions, if you may - but leave it
> at that.
It would be best if Scandinavia would pull out their financial support
out of the Arabic regions. The whole western world should actually make
haste with finding alternatives to Arab oil, so we could simply forget
about that part of the world and let them stew in their
self-righteousness. Maybe once the theocracies have tumbled their
countries into poverty and misery there might be more room for western
ideas.
As for Turkey: no EU-membership. No way, not after backing the Muslim
critics, at least not for the next 50 years. Maybe they will be ready
by then.
> Some Danes might think that the muslim societies are somewhat more discrete
> in condemning terrorist actions comitted in the name of their religion, so
> why don't they take a sip of cold water and a ponder on how they weight
> their priorities.
The Muslims should wonder *why* their beloved "prophet" is shown as a
terrorist.
RS
Robert J. Kolker
>
> The Muslims should wonder *why* their beloved "prophet" is shown as a
> terrorist.
They haven't a clue. Moslems are totally incapable of seeing the world
through the eyes of another. It is a kind of blindness that is
deliberately cultivated in their religious/cultural upbringing.
Bob Kolker
Von R. Smith
That would be a travesty of justice.
Timberwoof
"Stuart" <bigd...@aol.com> wrote:
> Timberwoof wrote:
> > In article <44fsleF...@individual.net>,
> > "Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
> > > Tehren for Dhimi status.
> >
> > What is Dhimi status?
>
> non-Muslims living in Muslim lands were granted a codified second
> citizen or dhimi status.
>
> Its amazing how quickly Europeans will throw their rights away.
Yeah, this is illustrated very well by all these European newspapers reprinting
the offensive cartoons.
As for people asking their legislators to take their rights away, can you say
"Patriot Act"?
Oh, I forgot. That's different.
> Of
> course Hamas wants Seville to come back under Muslim rule. No doubt the
> Spanish are seriously considering the possibility.
I think Spain should be returned to Roman rule, as it was before the Moslems
came.
Timberwoof
"maff" <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Indeed, the Islamic rule in Spain was enlightened that way. In giving all
religions respect, they fostered an amazing flowering of culture. Hey, maybe it
will be like that when Hamas takes over. Ya think so? We've been such fools.
Timberwoof
"Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Rune B wrote:
> >
> >
> > He was fired by the owner who feared for his life.
>
> A yes. Now I recognize the Frenchman. With his hands raised up in the
> eleven oh five position. The French laid down on the backs for the
> Germans, why not the Moslems also.
>
> My wife worked for Waldengbooks when -Satanic Verses- was published. THe
> Moslem thugs did the same thing then. Hate mail, wild demonstrations,
> threats against the life of the author, the publisher and any bookstore
> that carried -Satanic Verses-. I am happy to report that the management
> of Waldenbooks did not give an inch to those bastards. In fact they
> displayed the book even more prominently.
I worked at a Waldenbooks when this happened. I bought our only copy of the
book. Then a bunch of people showed up and asked to buy the book. We told them
we didn't have any, so they ran outside and started picketing, claiming we had
pulled the books from our shelves. Our assistant manager went out there with a
special order form, told them that we had run out, but would be happy to reserve
copies of the book for them. We'd even call them to let them know the books had
arrived. The protesters looked quite sheepish. The assistant manager said, "I
hear that B. Daltons pulled their copies. Why don't you go and protest them?"
Off they ran, not having ordered any from us.
> The board of directors of
> Waldenbooks does not have a single French member.
Bob, that's stupid. It's convenient of you not to quote the new head of the
newspaper who refused to apologize for having printed the cartoons.
Timberwoof
"Richard Smol" <jaz...@dds.nl> wrote:
> As for Turkey: no EU-membership. No way, not after backing the Muslim
> critics, at least not for the next 50 years. Maybe they will be ready
> by then.
I'm with you on that. They recently arrested someone for insulting the
government. And Turkey demands an all-or-nothing membership? Fine. Nothing,
then. You like what we have? Build your own. After all, we did. (You don't like
what we have? Then leave.)
Timberwoof
"Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Temper, temper. It's the radicals who are like that.
In the mean time, it would be refreshing to see the moderates exercise a little
more control and restraint. Those young bucks likely to be swayed by their imam
friend aren't likely to listen to a Christian or European ... so it's up to the
moderate Moslems to moderate.
Ash
> David Ewan Kahana wrote:
>> Khubla wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
>>
>> Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
>> whose newspapers publish these?
>>
>> http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
>>
>>
>> David
>
> To be fair, those cartoons are about the state of Israel and not the
> jewish people.
To be honest, rather than fair, they aren't, they are anti-semitic.
Gary
broadcast an actual beheading, although they have shown tape of
terrorists and victim a few minutes before the murder.
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> Indeed, the Islamic rule in Spain was enlightened that way. In giving all
> religions respect, they fostered an amazing flowering of culture. Hey, maybe it
> will be like that when Hamas takes over. Ya think so? We've been such fools.
Islamic "enlightenment" came an end in the 13-th century of the common
era. The reactionary elements of the Islamic domains won out and it has
been so every since.
It is rather a shame. Islam, in some respects, had a very auspicious
beginning.
Bob Kolker
>
Stuart
Indeed, and the Jews were given second class status.
But I guess you would also like to see Seville back under Ottoman rule.
The gutter liberals are having a field day.
Stuart
Stuart
Timberwoof wrote:
> In article <1138955725.1...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Stuart" <bigd...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Timberwoof wrote:
> > > In article <44fsleF...@individual.net>,
> > > "Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
> > > > Tehren for Dhimi status.
> > >
> > > What is Dhimi status?
> >
> > non-Muslims living in Muslim lands were granted a codified second
> > citizen or dhimi status.
> >
> > Its amazing how quickly Europeans will throw their rights away.
>
> Yeah, this is illustrated very well by all these European newspapers reprinting
> the offensive cartoons.
Oh you just wait.
>
> As for people asking their legislators to take their rights away, can you say
> "Patriot Act"?
>
> Oh, I forgot. That's different.
The Patriot Act is in the process of being scaled back.
>
> > Of
> > course Hamas wants Seville to come back under Muslim rule. No doubt the
> > Spanish are seriously considering the possibility.
>
> I think Spain should be returned to Roman rule, as it was before the Moslems
> came.
Well it was probably better off then.
Stuart
Stuart
Unfortunately they are intimidated into silence.
Stuart
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> Temper, temper. It's the radicals who are like that.
>
> In the mean time, it would be refreshing to see the moderates exercise a little
> more control and restraint. Those young bucks likely to be swayed by their imam
> friend aren't likely to listen to a Christian or European ... so it's up to the
> moderate Moslems to moderate.
The Islamic word for moderate is corpse.
Bob Kolker
>
David Ewan Kahana
> David Ewan Kahana wrote:
> > Khubla wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
> >
> > Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
> > whose newspapers publish these?
> >
> > http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_061802.asp
> > http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
> >
> >
> > David
>
> To be fair, those cartoons are about the state of Israel and not the
> jewish people.
> anti-arab.
I'm sure that the intended readership, when they look at a
picture of the Israeli prime minister drinking a goblet
overflowing with blood, which is said to have come from
Palestinian children, will be just about as fair-minded as you
in their evaluation of the message.
No doubt they all chuckle approvingly to themselves
and think: `Alhamdilullah, this is indeed a most clever way to
`mock' Ariel Sharon and make a delicate point about
the `state of Israel.' After all, very few of them could be
expected to know that Sharon is a Jew. A lot of them
probably think that he may be an Israeli Arab!
Come off of it.
These are classically antisemitic portrayals of Jews that
would have warmed the cockles of the hearts of the
editors of der Stuermer.
David
Ray Martinez
> but as too the covering up of women the muslim fashion, it is not and will
> part of the teasing by non-agressive means, we know they have become some of
> ours - do put the economic pressure by sanctions, if you may - but leave it
> at that.
> in condemning terrorist actions comitted in the name of their religion, so
> why don't they take a sip of cold water and a ponder on how they weight
> their priorities.
>
These same "civilized" Muslims cheered over 911 and descerated the
altar at the Church of the Nativity during their up-rising, not to
mention the delieberate desecration of Joseph's tomb.
Civilized people should condemn their threats of murder for what it is:
blackmail.
Where is Western outrage that we must convince these same persons Jews
have a right to exist in Palestine ?
Muslims are criminals and should be treated as such.
Ray
stoney
<now...@nowhere.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Many Christians have the same problem.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
stoney
alt.atheism
>Khubla wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
>
>Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
>whose newspapers publish these?
>
>http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_061802.asp
>http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
>
>
>David
--
stoney
alt.atheism
>Khubla wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
>
>Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
>whose newspapers publish these?
Of course not! Damned hypocrites. [spit]
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> Many Christians have the same problem.
But Christians do not hijack airplanes and crash them into tall
buildings. Nor do Christians strap explosives to their bodies and blow
themselves and many innocent folks to smithereens.
Christians are non inflicted with the Jihad Meme.
Bob Kolker
Shane
> Richard Smol wrote:>
>>
>> The Muslims should wonder *why* their beloved "prophet" is shown as a
>> terrorist.
>
> They haven't a clue. Moslems are totally incapable of seeing the world
> through the eyes of another.
A characteristic that you share with them Bob, so is the fate you wish
on them the same fate you wish upon yourself?
> It is a kind of blindness that is
> deliberately cultivated in their religious/cultural upbringing.
And the same kind of blindness you share when on this subject.
So once again, you become indistinguishable from those you hate.
--
Shane
Shane
> stoney wrote:
>>
>> Many Christians have the same problem.
>
> But Christians do not hijack airplanes and crash them into tall
> buildings.
Not yet anyway. What sort of guarantee are you giving that they never
will?
> Nor do Christians strap explosives to their bodies and blow
> themselves and many innocent folks to smithereens.
Is there some difference between dying from an IRA car bomb, a Rwandan
massacre, an anti abortion murder, or a moslem suicide bomb. Please
elaborate so the families of the victims of any of these can tell the
difference.
>
> Christians are non inflicted with the Jihad Meme.
Oh really? and your evidence for that is what, precisely? I don't know
if you have any religious allegiance, but you have the jihad meme, and
so you tend to disprove our own case. It doesn't even matter if you are
atheist, agnostic, or a pastafarian, whatever the ism you personally
show that people who hold that ism can have the jihad meme.
--
Shane
Shane
[...]
> These same "civilized" Muslims
How could anyone know that it was the same people?
> cheered over 911 and descerated the
> altar at the Church of the Nativity during their up-rising,
The altar of any church is merely a physical object and is not worthy of
any particular reverence or sanctification. I wonder why Ray would even
mention this?
> not to
> mention the delieberate desecration of Joseph's tomb.
Ditto. What relevance has this to anything?
>
> Civilized people should condemn their threats of murder for what it is:
> blackmail.
I agree with Ray here, he is correct, sadly though, agreement from me
will negate this particular concept for Ray, meaning that he now has to
believe the opposite to be true.
> Where is Western outrage that we must convince these same persons Jews
> have a right to exist in Palestine ?
A borderline incoherent sentence, unfortunately typical of Ray. The
outrage should be over the response to some cartoons. The Palestine
issue is not dependant upon the cartoon issue in any way shpe of form.
> Muslims are criminals and should be treated as such.
It is comments like this that show a persons true colours WRT their
professed religious allegiance. Ray claims to be a christian, and
specifically a follower of the Apostle Paul. I wonder if he can justify
his particular prejudice as shown here, from any christian source.
People who break laws are criminals, and only criminals should be
treated like criminals.
--
Shane
The truth will set you free.
Lisbeth Andersson
news:6PKdnamBmMb...@adelphia.com:
> The Organization of The Islamic Conference :PO Box: 178,
> Jeddah-21411,Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
> Tel:6900001, fax:2751953
>
>
> E-mail : cab...@oic-oci.org
>
> Let these bronze age people know how you feel.
>
>
> "Réné" <rene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mCpEf.9609$Iw6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> (what exactly are they putting in the water over there?)
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Arab News, 30 January 2006 -- The Muslim world's two main
>> political bodies, the Organization of the Islamic Conference
>> (OIC) and the Arab League, said yesterday they were seeking a UN
>> resolution, backed by possible sanctions, to protect religions.
>> This follows the outcry caused by publication in Scandinavia of
>> cartoons denigrating Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
>>
>> Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, secretary-general of the 57-member OIC
>> told reporters in Cairo that the OIC would "ask the UN General
>> Assembly to pass a resolution banning attacks on religious
>> beliefs." <....>
>>
Talk about irony. Bamiyan Buddhas anyone?
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
erikc
>
>Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>> David Ewan Kahana wrote:
>>
>> > Khubla wrote:
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> > What a joke. These guys have some nerve.
>> >
>> > Will the OIC seek UN sanctions against the nations
>> > whose newspapers publish these?
>>
>> The Muslims in addition to being wakjobs are blooming hypocrites. I
>> wonder if there is any place in WOG hell for hypocrites.
>>
>
>I think instead of 72 virgins they get 72 transvestites.
72 nuns, actually. All over 60.
>Stuart
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
erikc
wrote:
>maff wrote:
>
>>
>> But you left out both Jewish and Muslim Spanish citizens were expelled
>> by the Christians. Both were given refuge in North Africa and Turkey.
>
>That was then. What about now? Crusaders existed up to about 600 years
>ago, but not since. Meanwhile the craziness of the Moslems is a DAILY
>occurence recorded in newspapers and t.v..
>
>Christianity is well detoxified and rendered tame by secular influences.
>Can the same be said of al Islam?
>
>Bob Kolker
After about 500 years of getting thier asses kicked?
Robert J. Kolker
And the same kind of blindness you share when on this subject.
>
> So once again, you become indistinguishable from those you hate.
Not true. I finally saw the danger after 9/11. And I don't -hate-
Moslems. I just see that that are dangerous to me and mine and I wish to
eliminate the danger.
If thine enemy smite thee on they cheek rip his head off and shit down
his neck. Then slay his family and his friends.
Bob Kolker
casa_n...@yahoo.co.uk
you dont normally here of non moslem suicide bombers blowing up
civilians who have nothing to do with their "cause"
palestine survives on non moslem money exclusively. the moslem approach
to problem solving is clear in places like darfur.
moslems dont seem to have much respect for flags of non moslem
countries which they periodically burn and stamp on.
so : for a moslem : he need not respect anyone, he simply needs to
demand respect AND handouts at the same time.
Ray Martinez
Pure common sense and decency.
Remember Bob that Shane actually made an argument defending the
desecration of altars and tombs.
Anyone this God-senseless is dumb as they come. I will never give Shane
the time of day again.
Shaneites think Biblical love was intended for national relationships
when it was only intended for personal relationships.
Muslims are evil and anyone who does not agree is evil and dumb.
Strapping a bomb to your body and sneaking up to persons in a
cafe....cheering over 911....and a cartoon is reason for murder = pure
evil.
Ray
Shane
> Shane wrote:
> And the same kind of blindness you share when on this subject.
>>
>> So once again, you become indistinguishable from those you hate.
>
> Not true.
Sorry Bob, but for a knowledgable and rational thinker as far as science
is concerned, you have a blind spot with this subject and apparently
cannot see yourself the way others see you.
> I finally saw the danger after 9/11. And I don't -hate-
> Moslems. I just see that that are dangerous to me and mine and I wish to
> eliminate the danger.
So you know for a fact that moslems hate you, but what is lacking is how
you know this? By their words? they are so similar to yours it makes a
mockery of your claim that you do not hate them. By their actions? they
may be no more motivated by hatred than the public executioners are? A
suicide bomber may be without any rancour against you at all, but is
totally focused on the reward the thinks he will get, so hate need not
come into it at that level.
> If thine enemy smite thee on they cheek rip his head off and shit down
> his neck. Then slay his family and his friends.
So what are you doing in the comfort and safety of the U.S., why are you
not out their living up to your childish fantasy?
--
Shane
wf...@comcast.net
wrote:
>
>Muslims are evil and anyone who does not agree is evil and dumb.
>Strapping a bomb to your body and sneaking up to persons in a
>cafe....cheering over 911....and a cartoon is reason for murder = pure
>evil.
>
>Ray
muslims are not evil. islam is, however, an ideology and can be
critiqued on that basis. and, on that basis, the enire religion is
shot throught with severe problems that stagger the imagination.
it, more than any other current method of thought, represents a
threat to the human race.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> muslims are not evil. islam is, however, an ideology and can be
> critiqued on that basis. and, on that basis, the enire religion is
> shot throught with severe problems that stagger the imagination.
In particular, the Jihad Meme.
>
> it, more than any other current method of thought, represents a
> threat to the human race.
Correct. This evil religion turns ordinary people into homocidal maniacs.
Bob Kolker
>
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> So what are you doing in the comfort and safety of the U.S., why are you
> not out their living up to your childish fantasy?
I tried to enlist, but the recruiter say that 70 is to old for the
service. Sorry about that.
If the USAF offered me on opportunity to put a bomb in the Qabah stone
in the middle of the Haj I would would do it in a split second. I have
had a good run and if I could end it by killed a few million of the
bastards I would consider it a good deal.
I will offer you some advice.
1. Treat your friends well, cherish and protect them.
2. Be polite to your customers and give them good service.
3. Be courteous to neutrals.
4. Kill your enemies.
Bob Kolker
Shane
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>> Shane wrote:
>> And the same kind of blindness you share when on this subject.
>>>
>>> So once again, you become indistinguishable from those you hate.
>>
>> Not true. I finally saw the danger after 9/11. And I don't -hate-
>> Moslems. I just see that that are dangerous to me and mine and I wish to
>> eliminate the danger.
>>
>> If thine enemy smite thee on they cheek rip his head off and shit down
>> his neck. Then slay his family and his friends.
>>
>> Bob Kolker
>
> Pure common sense and decency.
But certainly not christianity, Ray finally comes out and admits he is
no christian.
> Remember Bob that Shane actually made an argument defending the
> desecration of altars and tombs.
Nope. I merely pointed out that altars and tombs are physical objects,
and as such carry no inherent spiritual value. Here are my actual words;
"The altar of any church is merely a physical object and is not worthy
of any particular reverence or sanctification. I wonder why Ray would
even mention this?"
Please feel free to point out where they "defend" the desecration?
> Anyone this God-senseless is dumb as they come. I will never give Shane
> the time of day again.
I have a mobile phone, and a pager that bot display the time, as do my
computers, so I am less than concerned over this punishment.
> Shaneites think Biblical love was intended for national relationships
> when it was only intended for personal relationships.
So again Ray shows the limited nature of his god. ray apparently thinks
that a country of people showing biblical love for their enemies would
be at the mercy of those enemies. That is as good an example of lack of
faith as you will come across.
> Muslims are evil
There is Ray's "christianity" coming out again. Funny how it is 180
degrees opposed to what his professed Lord says. In order to point out
Ray's error I will alter his wording slightly.
"Samaritans are evil." That was the prevailing belief of the people of
Jesus' time, yet he taught that people are people, there are good ones
and bad ones in any group or classification. No surprise that Ray does
not understand this.
> and anyone who does not agree is evil and dumb.
Ahh, ye olde poison the well argument, or is it a variant of the NTS
fallacy?
> Strapping a bomb to your body and sneaking up to persons in a
> cafe....cheering over 911....and a cartoon is reason for murder = pure
> evil.
Nope again, ignorance, stupidity, delusion, betrayal are also reasons
for that sort of behaviour. Ray the "christian" is very quick to judge
another persons heart, yet his holy book says only one person can do
that.
wf...@comcast.net
wrote:
>So you know for a fact that moslems hate you, but what is lacking is how
>you know this? By their words? they are so similar to yours it makes a
>mockery of your claim that you do not hate them. By their actions? they
>may be no more motivated by hatred than the public executioners are? A
>suicide bomber may be without any rancour against you at all, but is
>totally focused on the reward the thinks he will get, so hate need not
>come into it at that level.
which is both irrelevant, and more chilling. if muslims are murdering
because they DON'T hate, but because their religion tells them it's
god's will, is that better than killing because of hatred?
>
wf...@comcast.net
>
>Timberwoof wrote:
>> In article <44fsleF...@individual.net>,
>> "Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
>> > Tehren for Dhimi status.
>>
>> What is Dhimi status?
>
>non-Muslims living in Muslim lands were granted a codified second
>citizen or dhimi status.
>
>Its amazing how quickly Europeans will throw their rights away.
ironically the US govt has sided with the muslims. guess the xtian
fanatics who run the US govt saw common cause with the fanatics in
islam...
wf...@comcast.net
>On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:14:47 -0500, "Robert J. Kolker"
><now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>A French newspaper rand the Danish cartoons. The editor was fired for
>>permitting it. The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
>>Tehren for Dhimi status.
>
>He was fired by the owner who feared for his life.
actually the owner is egyptian...
Joe Cooper
wf...@comcast.net wrote:
> ironically the US govt has sided with the muslims. guess the xtian
> fanatics who run the US govt saw common cause with the fanatics in
> islam...
Bush probably is trying to avoid saying anything to inflame the
situation in Iraq. A fairly reasonable attitude, which is why i am
somewhat surprised he takes it.
Joe Cooper
wf...@comcast.net
wrote:
given the fact we've liberated afghanistan, saved thousands of muslim
lives in kosovo, and gave hundreds of millions to the palestinian
authority, you'd think there'd be some sense of appreciation in the
muslim world
i've just about had it with islam and the savagery it breeds.
Timberwoof
wrote:
So much for repairing relationships with Europe.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
Robert J. Kolker
>
> given the fact we've liberated afghanistan, saved thousands of muslim
> lives in kosovo, and gave hundreds of millions to the palestinian
> authority, you'd think there'd be some sense of appreciation in the
> muslim world
>
> i've just about had it with islam and the savagery it breeds.
The Sleeper awakens!
Bob Kolker
>
wf...@comcast.net
allahu akbar :-)
Robert J. Kolker
Shane
Not at all. Lets not forget the context here, I was not trying to
justify the Moslem position, rather I was trying to get Bob to see that
his beliefs on the subject of Moslems are identical to theirs wrt
westerners. Bob said that he did not "hate" Muslims, yet he wants to
nuke all of them. So, ISTM, your last comment is more correctly directed
at Bob, who wants to murder whole nations to satisfy some irrational
urge that he refuses to acknowledge is irrational.
--
Shane
Shane
> Shane wrote:
>
>>
>> So what are you doing in the comfort and safety of the U.S., why are you
>> not out their living up to your childish fantasy?
>
> I tried to enlist, but the recruiter say that 70 is to old for the
> service. Sorry about that.
Damn you are easily deterred from your fantasies.
>
> If the USAF offered me on opportunity to put a bomb in the Qabah stone
> in the middle of the Haj I would would do it in a split second. I have
> had a good run and if I could end it by killed a few million of the
> bastards I would consider it a good deal.
And of course you won't have to live with the consequenses, which is
akin to cowardice. I have said it before, and I say it again, you would
make a great muslim, you think exactly like them.
>
> I will offer you some advice.
>
> 1. Treat your friends well, cherish and protect them.
How do you tell your friends from your enemies? Maybe that nice person
you think the world of, is just trying to get close to you to slip the
knife in. Better kill him/her first Bob, just to make sure.
> 2. Be polite to your customers and give them good service.
Good advice here, but too limited. Treat everyone that way and maybe you
won't have to worry about trying to tell the difference between your
friends and enemies.
> 3. Be courteous to neutrals.
Same comment as point 1.
> 4. Kill your enemies.
Same comment as point 1. Its the old frozen canary story, the person who
put you in the shit is not necessarily your enemy and the person who
gets you out is not necessarily your friend.
Distilled down to it's essence, your four points are actually 2.
1. Be nice to people who cannot/do not harm you.
2. Kill those who can/do harm you.
The only problem I have with it is that how do you tell the difference
between the two groups?
To truly think like you do is to live a life of paranoia, if you are not
paranoid, then my conclusion is you are merely posturing.
--
Shane
Robert J. Kolker
>
> Not at all. Lets not forget the context here, I was not trying to
> justify the Moslem position, rather I was trying to get Bob to see that
> his beliefs on the subject of Moslems are identical to theirs wrt
> westerners. Bob said that he did not "hate" Muslims, yet he wants to
> nuke all of them. So, ISTM, your last comment is more correctly directed
> at Bob, who wants to murder whole nations to satisfy some irrational
> urge that he refuses to acknowledge is irrational.
Eliminating people who would kill either me or my family is irrational?
These son's of Allah are out to get my pale Jewish ass.
Bob Kolker
>
Shane
What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
never likely to know.
--
Shane
Shane
And a further point, the ones that are aware of you, prossibly want to
eliminate you because you want to eliminate them. They may never have
become aware of you except for your posts on Usenet which directly
threaten entire muslim nations. How ironic would that be?
--
Shane
Robert J. Kolker
>>
>
> What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
> never likely to know.
I never claimed to be their exclusive victim. I am just one of many
potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
attack my country, attack me and my family. I live here.
These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
>
> And a further point, the ones that are aware of you, prossibly want to
> eliminate you because you want to eliminate them. They may never have
> become aware of you except for your posts on Usenet which directly
> threaten entire muslim nations. How ironic would that be?
Let them worry about it. Single handed I can do nothing. If I can
promote the idea of ethnocide and it catches on among those who can do
something then I will be will satisfied and happy.
I think the idea of wiping out Islam is an idea whose time is rapidly
coming. The latest bunch of embassy burnings by wild Moslem fanatics
will only speed the day. These assholes are going to bring the roof down
on their own heads.
Bob Kolker
Stile4aly
Bob,
Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
I realize that you're under the impression that the great unwashed
hoards are at the gate ready to take away your cable TV and Hungry-Man
dinners, but you have to understand that the average guy on the streets
of Cairo, or Beirut, or Baghdad, or Mecca has no animosity towards the
average American. Arabs, and Muslims generally don't like American
foreign policy, but neither does most of the EU, yet I don't see you
calling for nuking Berlin. I understand you hate the terrorists, and I
bet you'd be surprised to know that most Muslims hate the terrorists as
well. Keep in mind that Osama has more in mind than bringing down the
West (in his own delusion). He wants to set up his version of an
Islamic state on a worldwide basis which would cause that guy on the
streets of Baghdad just as much suffering as the guy on the streets of
Springfield.
Now, also speaking as a Muslim, I am none too thrilled with what I see
going on in the middle east right now. I've had the great privilege to
be born and raised in the US, and I hold my freedom of speech very
dear, and although I am offended by some of the cartoons, I am more
offended by the torchings of the Danish and Norwegian embassies. The
concept of freedom of speech can only be practiced by a well educated
society, and the state of education in most of the middle east is
deplorable. Very little freedom of speech exists and so when something
like these cartoons come down the pike the reaction ends up being far
more than a strongly worded letter to the editor. But if you look at
the reactions of Muslims in the US, and Europe you'll see more balanced
reactions with peaceful protests, and calls for dialogue. Even with
this being said, we are talking about the reactions of several thousand
Muslims out of a group of 1 billion. We're talking about a very small
but extremely vocal minority, and one can hardly damn the whole
religion and all its practitioners for the actions of this group.
Your call to kill all Muslims is uninformed and inflammatory, and I
hope you'll choose to learn more about Islam than the Worldnet daily
talking points. As a practitioner, I can tell you it is a beautiful
religion.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> Bob,
>
> Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
Your Jihad Meme, a form of thought virus is there waiting to be
activated under the correct circumstances.
Think of your brain as a computer and the Jihad Meme as the Allah'hu
Akbar virus ready to go off and bring you to martyrdom. You believe you
will enter Paradise without suffering the sting of Death and collect
your 72 dark eyed houris.
I want you at least 12,000 miles away from me and mine.
Bob Kolker
wf...@comcast.net
>
>Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>> Shane wrote:
>> >>
>> >
>> > What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
>> > never likely to know.
>>
>> I never claimed to be their exclusive victim. I am just one of many
>> potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
>> attack my country, attack me and my family. I live here.
>>
>> These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
>>
>> Bob Kolker
>
>Bob,
>
>Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
you are not the enemy. the problem is islam. and the first victim of
islam is muslims.
>
>I realize that you're under the impression that the great unwashed
>hoards are at the gate ready to take away your cable TV and Hungry-Man
>dinners, but you have to understand that the average guy on the streets
>of Cairo, or Beirut, or Baghdad, or Mecca has no animosity towards the
>average American. Arabs, and Muslims generally don't like American
>foreign policy, but neither does most of the EU
ever read v. s. naipul's book 'among the believers'? the nobel prize
winning author paints a different picture of the muslim world than you
do. his view...and daniel pipes agrees with him...is that a large
percentage of muslims view the west as degenerate and inferior because
it's not muslim.
conspiracy theories are rife in the muslim world about why inferior
people are more succesful than muslims. a recent gallup poll found
that 100% of muslims polled in the middle east and asia..that figure
is correct...100%...thought jews were evil.
the muslim world is insular and closed. although not all muslims are
arabs, the arab world has expelled most of its non muslim population
(for example, there are only 100,000 xtians left in iraq out of a
population of 22,000,000). if oil is subtracted from the amount of
exports, the entire arab world exports less than finland.
islam victimizes women. in every country where sharia is enforced,
women are denied education, access to health care, equal opportunity
in political decision making, etc.
islam victimizes gays. iran recently murdered a number of gay young
men merely for being gay. in taliban afghanistan, gays were murdered
on a routine basis.
islam victimizes other peoples of faith. in every country where sharia
is enforced, christianity and judaism are illegal or their adherents
are 2nd class citizens. the concept has its roots in 'dhimmitude'.
in bali, islamist radicals murdered hundreds of non muslims merely
because they liked to dance. in today's muslim world, muslims are on
the rampage because of a dozen cartoons in a western newspaper that
had nothing to do with them. and, of course, we will never forget
sept. 11.
islam is undergoing a crisis. and the focus of its hatred is against
the west. bernard lewis has pointed out that muslims simply can not
understand why, if islam is superior, the muslim world is so backward.
the answer is that islam has never separated church from state. it has
never allowed indivdual sovereignty. it has never respected the rule
of secular law.
christianity certainly had these problems as well, and much of the
discussion on this newsgroup focuses on christianists who, like their
muslim counterparts, wish to turn the world back 5 centuries.
but islam is a special case. muslims have a problem and it's one of
their own making. it's time for them to analyze their own failures and
stop MURDERING those of us in the west because their religion is
regressive.
, yet I don't see you
>calling for nuking Berlin. I understand you hate the terrorists, and I
>bet you'd be surprised to know that most Muslims hate the terrorists as
>well.
no, no they don't. and that's part of the problem
until fairly recently, most arabs (again not all muslims are arabs),
suported bin laden and the use of terror against the west. CNN had
polls before and after the bombings in jordan. before the bombings in
amman. about 65% of jordanians supported terrorism.
bin laden would not be able to hide in pakistan without strong
support. daniel pipes estimates that 10-30% of muslims support
terrorism and the destruction of the west.
eep in mind that Osama has more in mind than bringing down the
>West (in his own delusion). He wants to set up his version of an
>Islamic state on a worldwide basis which would cause that guy on the
>streets of Baghdad just as much suffering as the guy on the streets of
>Springfield.
and much of the muslim world supports the violent re-establishment of
the caliphate. the recent elections in palestine show that hamas is
popular. elections in saudi arabia brought islamists to power. in iraq
islamists won. in nigeria a number of states are under sharia because
that's what the muslim population wants. in iran the most reactionary
forces won and there are indications the president has much popular
support.
religious government always fail. they are always repressive. yet much
of the muslim world desires this.
>
>Your call to kill all Muslims is uninformed and inflammatory, and I
>hope you'll choose to learn more about Islam than the Worldnet daily
>talking points. As a practitioner, I can tell you it is a beautiful
>religion.
calling for the killing of all muslims is wrong. but islam is not a
beautiful religiion. it simply is not. it is unable to challenge
itself to grow. it is becoming more regressive, not less. and its
failures are of its own making.
muslim societies seem to be incapable of growth. they DO seem to have
a tendency for destruction. and until muslims get a handle on this,
islam will be a danger.
it is not a beautiful religion at all.
Stile4aly
So basically you believe every Muslim is a sleeper agent waiting to be
triggered turning against friends and family as an unstoppable killing
machine. I think you've watched the Manchurian Candidate too many
times. I have no interest in martyrdom, and I don't particularly look
forward to death, and I don't believe it will be without sting. I
believe the "72 dark eyed houris" are a metaphor for unending pleasure
to be found in the afterlife, not a literal group of 72 women (besides
which, my wife would be jealous). The "Jihad meme" which your
describing almost certainly does exist in the minds of those who have
been brainwashed by the likes of Bin Laden, or Islamic Jihad, or the
other terrorist organizations, but it as a mainstream thought it
doesn't exist anymoreso than the western belief: Dulce et decorum est
pro patria mori. Bob, I think you're misguided, but I don't harbor any
hate against you. You've ignored the remainder of my post. I hope you
at least read it.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> muslim societies seem to be incapable of growth. they DO seem to have
> a tendency for destruction. and until muslims get a handle on this,
> islam will be a danger.
>
> it is not a beautiful religion at all.
We need to get rid of it, once and for all. Since we do not have time
for a talky feely cure, nuclear destruction is the next best
alternative. The collateral damage is large, but whose fault will that be?
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
> So basically you believe every Muslim is a sleeper agent waiting to be
> triggered turning against friends and family as an unstoppable killing
> machine.
Not a sleeper agent as such, but capable of doing what sleeper agents
are trained to do. I loathe and fear the Jihad Meme. Look at the damage
it has alread caused. Combined with weapons of mass destructions, this
could mean the destruction of the West.
How many Moslem outrages will you tolerate before you finally resolve to
have done with it? My threshold was exceeded on 9/11/2001. Before that I
consider Islamofascist Terrorism as a persistent nuisance. Now I am no
longer so tolerant.
Bob Kolker
Stile4aly
wf...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2006 06:30:55 -0800, "Stile4aly" <stil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> >> Shane wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
> >> > never likely to know.
> >>
> >> I never claimed to be their exclusive victim. I am just one of many
> >> potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
> >> attack my country, attack me and my family. I live here.
> >>
> >> These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
> >>
> >> Bob Kolker
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
>
> you are not the enemy. the problem is islam. and the first victim of
> islam is muslims.
I would temper this and suggest that the problem is radical Islam, and
the first victim of radical Islam is Muslims.
> >
> >I realize that you're under the impression that the great unwashed
> >hoards are at the gate ready to take away your cable TV and Hungry-Man
> >dinners, but you have to understand that the average guy on the streets
> >of Cairo, or Beirut, or Baghdad, or Mecca has no animosity towards the
> >average American. Arabs, and Muslims generally don't like American
> >foreign policy, but neither does most of the EU
>
> ever read v. s. naipul's book 'among the believers'? the nobel prize
> winning author paints a different picture of the muslim world than you
> do. his view...and daniel pipes agrees with him...is that a large
> percentage of muslims view the west as degenerate and inferior because
> it's not muslim.
Now I'm sure you'll admit this is a very simplistic viewpoint "It's not
us, therefore it's bad." Is this viewpoint the product of an educated
society? Of course not. The issue is that the governments tend to
support this view becuase it focusses people on something other than
the problems at home, and extremists support this view because it helps
recruit new followers.
>
> conspiracy theories are rife in the muslim world about why inferior
> people are more succesful than muslims. a recent gallup poll found
> that 100% of muslims polled in the middle east and asia..that figure
> is correct...100%...thought jews were evil.
I'd like to see a link to that poll. If you did a poll on whether or
not the sky was blue you wouldn't get a 100% response. A google search
for "gallup poll jews evil" gives me nothing in the first 10 pages.
>
> the muslim world is insular and closed. although not all muslims are
> arabs, the arab world has expelled most of its non muslim population
> (for example, there are only 100,000 xtians left in iraq out of a
> population of 22,000,000). if oil is subtracted from the amount of
> exports, the entire arab world exports less than finland.
To be fair, those Christians in Iraq were purged due to Saddam who was
a decidedly secular ruler. There are also large non-Muslim populations
in Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, and Jordan. Certainly the middle east is
not a melting pot, I will grant you that.
>
> islam victimizes women. in every country where sharia is enforced,
> women are denied education, access to health care, equal opportunity
> in political decision making, etc.
IN countries where sharia is enforced, this is true. And I believe it
is deplorable.
>
> islam victimizes gays. iran recently murdered a number of gay young
> men merely for being gay. in taliban afghanistan, gays were murdered
> on a routine basis.
See above.
>
> islam victimizes other peoples of faith. in every country where sharia
> is enforced, christianity and judaism are illegal or their adherents
> are 2nd class citizens. the concept has its roots in 'dhimmitude'.
See above
>
> in bali, islamist radicals murdered hundreds of non muslims merely
> because they liked to dance. in today's muslim world, muslims are on
> the rampage because of a dozen cartoons in a western newspaper that
> had nothing to do with them. and, of course, we will never forget
> sept. 11.
Yes, terrorism bad. You're not going to get argument from me on
whether or not terrorism is wrong, but I believe you're not ascribing
it to the right cause.
>
> islam is undergoing a crisis. and the focus of its hatred is against
> the west. bernard lewis has pointed out that muslims simply can not
> understand why, if islam is superior, the muslim world is so backward.
>
> the answer is that islam has never separated church from state. it has
> never allowed indivdual sovereignty. it has never respected the rule
> of secular law.
I agree that the failure to separate church and state at the beginning
of the 20th century as was done in Turkey is one of the geopolitical
failures of the middle east. However, even countries that had secular
rule (Iraq, pre-revolutionary Iran, Syria, Lebanon) were not models of
western modernism. Separation of church and state is not the only
answer, and I believe there must be a transition into full separation
of church and state.
>
> christianity certainly had these problems as well, and much of the
> discussion on this newsgroup focuses on christianists who, like their
> muslim counterparts, wish to turn the world back 5 centuries.
>
> but islam is a special case. muslims have a problem and it's one of
> their own making. it's time for them to analyze their own failures and
> stop MURDERING those of us in the west because their religion is
> regressive.
>
>
> , yet I don't see you
> >calling for nuking Berlin. I understand you hate the terrorists, and I
> >bet you'd be surprised to know that most Muslims hate the terrorists as
> >well.
>
> no, no they don't. and that's part of the problem
>
> until fairly recently, most arabs (again not all muslims are arabs),
> suported bin laden and the use of terror against the west. CNN had
> polls before and after the bombings in jordan. before the bombings in
> amman. about 65% of jordanians supported terrorism.
Supported terrorism, or supported the Palestinian uprising? Jordan has
a very large Palestinian refugee population, so of course you'll find
supoprt for the intifadeh, but terrorism on the whole sounds very
unlikely. Again, I'd like to see the poll.
>
> bin laden would not be able to hide in pakistan without strong
> support. daniel pipes estimates that 10-30% of muslims support
> terrorism and the destruction of the west.
Pipes is not only pulling numbers out of the air, but is also not the
paragon on impartiality on this matter. Pipes' agenda is quite clear.
>
> eep in mind that Osama has more in mind than bringing down the
> >West (in his own delusion). He wants to set up his version of an
> >Islamic state on a worldwide basis which would cause that guy on the
> >streets of Baghdad just as much suffering as the guy on the streets of
> >Springfield.
>
> and much of the muslim world supports the violent re-establishment of
> the caliphate. the recent elections in palestine show that hamas is
> popular. elections in saudi arabia brought islamists to power. in iraq
> islamists won. in nigeria a number of states are under sharia because
> that's what the muslim population wants. in iran the most reactionary
> forces won and there are indications the president has much popular
> support.
Hamas won in the Palestinian territories because the population rightly
sees Fatah as a corrupt government, whereas Hamas actually does get
roads built, and get electricity and water flowing. Hamas is not a
terrorist organization only, although it does have a terrorist wing.
Hamas and its terrorist wing is identical to Sinn Fein and the IRA in
Ireland. My hope is that much like in Northern Ireland peace will come
by having a group like Hamas actually sitting at the bargaining table.
As for the other elections, yes there is an issue with radical Islam's
pull at the ballot box. Part of this is that when an imam tells you
that you'll go to hell unless you vote for a particular candidate you
tend to vote. Just as conservative Christians have influence here in
the states, so do the imams have influence over their communities.
>
> religious government always fail. they are always repressive. yet much
> of the muslim world desires this.
Religious governments can exist without being oppressive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion has a good list of
countries with an established State religion,
>
> >
> >Your call to kill all Muslims is uninformed and inflammatory, and I
> >hope you'll choose to learn more about Islam than the Worldnet daily
> >talking points. As a practitioner, I can tell you it is a beautiful
> >religion.
>
> calling for the killing of all muslims is wrong. but islam is not a
> beautiful religiion. it simply is not. it is unable to challenge
> itself to grow. it is becoming more regressive, not less. and its
> failures are of its own making.
Again, you ascribe the political failures of the middle east
exclusively to Islam. You are completely ignoring the economic,
educational, and political realities of the region. If you were living
under Saddam, could barely read, earned $50 a year, and could be
"disappeared" for thinking an anti-Saddam thought, what incentive would
you have to start a political movement to better your country? You
would be far more likely to be more concerned with putting bread on the
table.
>
> muslim societies seem to be incapable of growth. they DO seem to have
> a tendency for destruction. and until muslims get a handle on this,
> islam will be a danger.
>
> it is not a beautiful religion at all.
I am truly sorry you feel this way.
Stuart
Stile4aly wrote:
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> > Shane wrote:
> > >>
> > >
> > > What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
> > > never likely to know.
> >
> > I never claimed to be their exclusive victim. I am just one of many
> > potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
> > attack my country, attack me and my family. I live here.
> >
> > These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
> >
> > Bob Kolker
>
> Bob,
>
> Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
>
> I realize that you're under the impression that the great unwashed
> hoards are at the gate ready to take away your cable TV and Hungry-Man
> dinners, but you have to understand that the average guy on the streets
> of Cairo, or Beirut, or Baghdad, or Mecca has no animosity towards the
> average American.
What a bunch of fucking crap.
DO you even bother to read any of their newspapers?
Stuart
Stuart
wf...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2006 00:35:25 -0800, "Stuart" <bigd...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Timberwoof wrote:
> >> In article <44fsleF...@individual.net>,
> >> "Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > The owner of the newspaper petitioned the grand imam in
> >> > Tehren for Dhimi status.
> >>
> >> What is Dhimi status?
> >
> >non-Muslims living in Muslim lands were granted a codified second
> >citizen or dhimi status.
> >
> >Its amazing how quickly Europeans will throw their rights away.
>
> ironically the US govt has sided with the muslims.
No the US govt sided with democracy, and follishly, did not realize who
was most poised to take advantage of that.
Stuart
Bob D
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> Rune B wrote:
> >
> >
> > He was fired by the owner who feared for his life.
>
> eleven oh five position. The French laid down on the backs for the
> Germans, why not the Moslems also.
>
> My wife worked for Waldengbooks when -Satanic Verses- was published. THe
> Moslem thugs did the same thing then. Hate mail, wild demonstrations,
> threats against the life of the author, the publisher and any bookstore
> that carried -Satanic Verses-. I am happy to report that the management
> of Waldenbooks did not give an inch to those bastards. In fact they
> displayed the book even more prominently. The board of directors of
> Waldenbooks does not have a single French member.
>
> Bob Kolker
Strange that, Bob, the French held out against the veil. They fought
and temporarily lost against two German invasions. The French are still
a free nation, and long may it continue.
There is a massive evil in this world, 'tis true. But damning ones
allies doesn't help.
wf...@comcast.net
>
>wf...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 5 Feb 2006 06:30:55 -0800, "Stile4aly" <stil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>> >> Shane wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
>> >> > never likely to know.
>> >>
>> >> I never claimed to be their exclusive victim. I am just one of many
>> >> potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
>> >> attack my country, attack me and my family. I live here.
>> >>
>> >> These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
>> >>
>> >> Bob Kolker
>> >
>> >Bob,
>> >
>> >Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
>>
>> you are not the enemy. the problem is islam. and the first victim of
>> islam is muslims.
>
>I would temper this and suggest that the problem is radical Islam, and
>the first victim of radical Islam is Muslims.
the problem is that radical islam is as much a part of islam as is
suffism or shi'sm. islamism has the support of tens, if not hundreds
of millions of muslims.
>>
>> ever read v. s. naipul's book 'among the believers'? the nobel prize
>> winning author paints a different picture of the muslim world than you
>> do. his view...and daniel pipes agrees with him...is that a large
>> percentage of muslims view the west as degenerate and inferior because
>> it's not muslim.
>
>Now I'm sure you'll admit this is a very simplistic viewpoint "It's not
>us, therefore it's bad."
and that, historically, is not an unusual view among utopian
religions, whether christian, muslim or communists. they all believe
they have the only true religion. they all believe others are wrong.
they all have, at certain times in their histories, sought to repress
those who did not agree with them
Is this viewpoint the product of an educated
>society? Of course not. The issue is that the governments tend to
>support this view becuase it focusses people on something other than
>the problems at home, and extremists support this view because it helps
>recruit new followers.
and the preachers...the mullahs, the imams support it as well. you
forget that in islam, unlike the west, there is no distinction between
the umma and the state.
>
>>
>> conspiracy theories are rife in the muslim world about why inferior
>> people are more succesful than muslims. a recent gallup poll found
>> that 100% of muslims polled in the middle east and asia..that figure
>> is correct...100%...thought jews were evil.
>
>I'd like to see a link to that poll. If you did a poll on whether or
>not the sky was blue you wouldn't get a 100% response. A google search
>for "gallup poll jews evil" gives me nothing in the first 10 pages.
>
support for suicide bombings among muslims:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206
we see that in jordan, pakistan and morocco, there is a strong
majority of support among muslims for murdering westerners.
the poll of muslims who hated jews was taken in the middle east:
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248
showig that all jordanians and 99% of lebanese think jews are evil
>>
>> the muslim world is insular and closed. although not all muslims are
>> arabs, the arab world has expelled most of its non muslim population
>> (for example, there are only 100,000 xtians left in iraq out of a
>> population of 22,000,000). if oil is subtracted from the amount of
>> exports, the entire arab world exports less than finland.
>
>To be fair, those Christians in Iraq were purged due to Saddam who was
>a decidedly secular ruler. There are also large non-Muslim populations
>in Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, and Jordan. Certainly the middle east is
>not a melting pot, I will grant you that.
6% of egyptians are xtians. i wouldn't call that large. they are
subject to discrimination, find it hard to get jobs, and can not get
permission to build churches
in saudi arabia, where sharia rules, christianity is outlawed.
>
>>
>> islam victimizes women. in every country where sharia is enforced,
>> women are denied education, access to health care, equal opportunity
>> in political decision making, etc.
>
>IN countries where sharia is enforced, this is true. And I believe it
>is deplorable.
that's exactly my point. since the separation of church and state is
alien to islam, it's impossible to have a secular govt in islam. and
the greater degree to which islam is a part of govt, the greater the
repression of women.
>
>>
>> in bali, islamist radicals murdered hundreds of non muslims merely
>> because they liked to dance. in today's muslim world, muslims are on
>> the rampage because of a dozen cartoons in a western newspaper that
>> had nothing to do with them. and, of course, we will never forget
>> sept. 11.
>
>Yes, terrorism bad. You're not going to get argument from me on
>whether or not terrorism is wrong, but I believe you're not ascribing
>it to the right cause.
the right cause is islamism, which is as much a part of islam as
american fundamentalism is a part of xtianity. there is no muslim
pope. there is no one in the muslim world to say that islamism is
evil. it's apparent it has widespread support.
>> the answer is that islam has never separated church from state. it has
>> never allowed indivdual sovereignty. it has never respected the rule
>> of secular law.
>
>I agree that the failure to separate church and state at the beginning
>of the 20th century as was done in Turkey is one of the geopolitical
>failures of the middle east. However, even countries that had secular
>rule (Iraq, pre-revolutionary Iran, Syria, Lebanon) were not models of
>western modernism. Separation of church and state is not the only
>answer, and I believe there must be a transition into full separation
>of church and state.
but not a single muslim religious leader has ever said this. even the
'quietist' school of islam, as evidenced by sistani in iraq, has
demonstrated that it wants a privileged place for islam.
islam must change...fundamentally and radically so to speak. but it's
not. it's getting MORE repressive and MORE regressive.
last year a group of researchers published a list of the world's 500
best universities. 8 of 10 best were in the USA. cambridge and oxford
were the only non-US schools to make it in the top 10. (my undergrad
school, pitt, made it into the top 50).
several israeli schools made it.
only one...only one single university from the ENTIRE muslim world
made it and that was in secular turkey.
the world's oldest university is in egypt, yet it's an intellectual
slum. the problem is that islam is a fundamentalist religion and does
not allow criticism or questioning. the tradition of ijtihad has died
in the muslim world and has been replaced by fanaticism.
>
>>
>> no, no they don't. and that's part of the problem
>>
>> until fairly recently, most arabs (again not all muslims are arabs),
>> suported bin laden and the use of terror against the west. CNN had
>> polls before and after the bombings in jordan. before the bombings in
>> amman. about 65% of jordanians supported terrorism.
>
>Supported terrorism, or supported the Palestinian uprising? Jordan has
>a very large Palestinian refugee population, so of course you'll find
>supoprt for the intifadeh, but terrorism on the whole sounds very
>unlikely. Again, I'd like to see the poll.
see the poll cited above. 75% of jordanians supported murdering
westerners. a significant portion of pakistanis and moroccans do as
wel.
and the saudi arabians are the SOURCE of the wahabist/kharijite
theology that justifies murder such as that practiced on 9/11.
>
>>
>> bin laden would not be able to hide in pakistan without strong
>> support. daniel pipes estimates that 10-30% of muslims support
>> terrorism and the destruction of the west.
>
>Pipes is not only pulling numbers out of the air, but is also not the
>paragon on impartiality on this matter. Pipes' agenda is quite clear.
i agree that pipes polemics leave alot to be desired. but the problem
is not pipes. it's the attempted murder of the pope in the phillipines
by muslims. its the attempted destruction of 12 airliners over the
pacific a few years ago. it's the plan to hijack an airliner and fly
it into the eiffel tower. it's the recent success of the french police
in breaking up a terrorist cell in paris.
islam is the source and fount of terrorism. but nowhere in the world
is it an inspiration for academic achievement.
i work in the semiconductor business. i know ALOT of muslim engineers.
they're brilliant
but they DONT work in muslim countries because they have no future.
>>
>> and much of the muslim world supports the violent re-establishment of
>> the caliphate. the recent elections in palestine show that hamas is
>> popular. elections in saudi arabia brought islamists to power. in iraq
>> islamists won. in nigeria a number of states are under sharia because
>> that's what the muslim population wants. in iran the most reactionary
>> forces won and there are indications the president has much popular
>> support.
>
>Hamas won in the Palestinian territories because the population rightly
>sees Fatah as a corrupt government, whereas Hamas actually does get
>roads built, and get electricity and water flowing. Hamas is not a
>terrorist organization only, although it does have a terrorist wing.or
do you notice how often you have to keep saying this? across the
world..india, bali, the USA, singapore you keep having to make excuses
for muslims who believe god wants them to murder as many people as
they can
this perspective is not isolated. it's as much a part of islam as is
any other belief.
>Hamas and its terrorist wing is identical to Sinn Fein and the IRA in
>Ireland. My hope is that much like in Northern Ireland peace will come
>by having a group like Hamas actually sitting at the bargaining table.
>As for the other elections, yes there is an issue with radical Islam's
>pull at the ballot box. Part of this is that when an imam tells you
>that you'll go to hell unless you vote for a particular candidate you
>tend to vote. Just as conservative Christians have influence here in
>the states, so do the imams have influence over their communities.
i agree. the ignorance of fundamentalists is common both to xtians and
muslims. and it's for the same reason: both have a simple utopian view
of religion that they believe everyone must share.
but that is not beautiful.
>
>>
>> religious government always fail. they are always repressive. yet much
>> of the muslim world desires this.
>
>Religious governments can exist without being oppressive.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion has a good list of
>countries with an established State religion,
having an established state religion in name is different than having
it in practice. no one in the UK is compelled to worship in anglican
churches and muslims are not prohibited from practicing their religion
as i pointed out above, the degree to which a society has a religious
govt is a measure of its repression.
>>
>> calling for the killing of all muslims is wrong. but islam is not a
>> beautiful religiion. it simply is not. it is unable to challenge
>> itself to grow. it is becoming more regressive, not less. and its
>> failures are of its own making.
>
>Again, you ascribe the political failures of the middle east
>exclusively to Islam.
islam justifies these failures because much of the religion refuses to
allow ANY questioning or intellectual growth. it refuses to allow
women to participate in being human.
the failures of govts in the middle east are generally due to
corruption (for a good example of why arabs lose wars, check the
article by norville de atkine on the web).
but the fact is, across the world, islam justifies violence,
repression, and ignorance. from pakistani madrassas to the taliban who
bomb schools because they teach subjects other than religion, to the
world's oldest university which is a slum, islam's intellectual
heritage has collapsed
and islam is unable either to recognize it or to do anything about it.
Robert J. Kolker
> Strange that, Bob, the French held out against the veil. They fought
> and temporarily lost against two German invasions. The French are still
> a free nation, and long may it continue.
We saved the French from themselves. Mostly they laid down on their
backs, spread their legs and said -- Ach Heinrich! Herein stucken!
The French are a miserable cowardly lot. THe only froggies that fought
against the Narzis early and often were the Jews and the Communists, the
latter after they got permission from Uncle Joe.
French manhood was bled white by Napoleon.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
>
> but the fact is, across the world, islam justifies violence,
> repression, and ignorance. from pakistani madrassas to the taliban who
> bomb schools because they teach subjects other than religion, to the
> world's oldest university which is a slum, islam's intellectual
> heritage has collapsed
>
> and islam is unable either to recognize it or to do anything about it.
And we must end it. If the Islamofascists get a hold of WMDs and use
them on the U.S. -in- the U.S. we are in for a world of pain. We had
best kill the lot while we can.
Why am I the only one who can see this clearly? I have been singing this
song since 9/12/2001 but few have picked up the beat.
We cannot reason with people who prefer to die as martyrs than live as
human beings. The Ummah must die. It is as simple as that.
Bob Kolker
Stile4aly
w...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2006 09:00:28 -0800, "Stile4aly" <stil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >wf...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On 5 Feb 2006 06:30:55 -0800, "Stile4aly" <stil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> >> >> Shane wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
> >> >> > never likely to know.
> >> >>
> >> >> I never claimed to be their exclusive victim. I am just one of many
> >> >> potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
> >> >> attack my country, attack me and my family. I live here.
> >> >>
> >> >> These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
> >> >>
> >> >> Bob Kolker
> >> >
> >> >Bob,
> >> >
> >> >Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
> >>
> >> you are not the enemy. the problem is islam. and the first victim of
> >> islam is muslims.
> >
> >I would temper this and suggest that the problem is radical Islam, and
> >the first victim of radical Islam is Muslims.
>
> the problem is that radical islam is as much a part of islam as is
> suffism or shi'sm. islamism has the support of tens, if not hundreds
> of millions of muslims.
You haven't shown this. If you have some figures showing how many
Muslims are Islamists, or Wahabbis then that might be more convincing,
but asserting that it's in the hundreds of millions isn't evidence.
>
>
> >>
> >> ever read v. s. naipul's book 'among the believers'? the nobel prize
> >> winning author paints a different picture of the muslim world than you
> >> do. his view...and daniel pipes agrees with him...is that a large
> >> percentage of muslims view the west as degenerate and inferior because
> >> it's not muslim.
> >
> >Now I'm sure you'll admit this is a very simplistic viewpoint "It's not
> >us, therefore it's bad."
>
> and that, historically, is not an unusual view among utopian
> religions, whether christian, muslim or communists. they all believe
> they have the only true religion. they all believe others are wrong.
> they all have, at certain times in their histories, sought to repress
> those who did not agree with them
>
> Is this viewpoint the product of an educated
> >society? Of course not. The issue is that the governments tend to
> >support this view becuase it focusses people on something other than
> >the problems at home, and extremists support this view because it helps
> >recruit new followers.
>
> and the preachers...the mullahs, the imams support it as well. you
> forget that in islam, unlike the west, there is no distinction between
> the umma and the state.
But in modern day politics there is a distinction between the ummah and
the state. An ideal Islamic society would be representative and thus
the ummah would have a say in its own government. Very few governments
in the middle east are representative, and most of those that are are
in name only. The post-WWII breakdown of colonialism in the middle
east left a huge power vacuum which was filled by those who were either
militarily strongest or backed by the US or Europe. This didn't lead
to governments filled with enlightened intellectuals which could create
the kind of Islam you're referring to, it led to corrupt dictatorships
and puppet governments.
>
> >
> >>
> >> conspiracy theories are rife in the muslim world about why inferior
> >> people are more succesful than muslims. a recent gallup poll found
> >> that 100% of muslims polled in the middle east and asia..that figure
> >> is correct...100%...thought jews were evil.
> >
> >I'd like to see a link to that poll. If you did a poll on whether or
> >not the sky was blue you wouldn't get a 100% response. A google search
> >for "gallup poll jews evil" gives me nothing in the first 10 pages.
> >
>
> support for suicide bombings among muslims:
>
> http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206
>
> we see that in jordan, pakistan and morocco, there is a strong
> majority of support among muslims for murdering westerners.
No, there isn't. A majority Moroccans and Jordanians, and about 50% of
Pakistanis and 25% of Turks. believe that suicide bombings in Iraq are
justified. This being said, the report states that opposition to the
war in these countries is "near universal."
>
> the poll of muslims who hated jews was taken in the middle east:
>
> http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248
>
> showig that all jordanians and 99% of lebanese think jews are evil
Again, you're misrepresenting the report. The poll shows that 100% of
Jordanians and 99% of Lebanese have an unfavorable view of Jews. This
may have something to do with the fact that these two countries have
the largest populations of Palestinian refugees outside the Palestinian
territories. The word "evil" doesn't appear anywhere on the page.
>
> >>
> >> the muslim world is insular and closed. although not all muslims are
> >> arabs, the arab world has expelled most of its non muslim population
> >> (for example, there are only 100,000 xtians left in iraq out of a
> >> population of 22,000,000). if oil is subtracted from the amount of
> >> exports, the entire arab world exports less than finland.
> >
> >To be fair, those Christians in Iraq were purged due to Saddam who was
> >a decidedly secular ruler. There are also large non-Muslim populations
> >in Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, and Jordan. Certainly the middle east is
> >not a melting pot, I will grant you that.
>
> 6% of egyptians are xtians. i wouldn't call that large. they are
> subject to discrimination, find it hard to get jobs, and can not get
> permission to build churches
Not that I agree with discriminating against Copts, but it sounds like
the Muslims in France are in a very similar situation.
>
> in saudi arabia, where sharia rules, christianity is outlawed.
Likewise, I imagine you'll have a hard time building a mosque in
Vatican City. Saudi Arabia has Islam as the state religion, so of
course other religions will be outlawed. The last time I flew into
Riyadh an announcement came over the intercom stating that if anyone on
the plane had any pork, pornography, or alcohol that it must be turned
into the cabin crew or the individual would be deported.
>
> >
> >>
> >> islam victimizes women. in every country where sharia is enforced,
> >> women are denied education, access to health care, equal opportunity
> >> in political decision making, etc.
> >
> >IN countries where sharia is enforced, this is true. And I believe it
> >is deplorable.
>
> that's exactly my point. since the separation of church and state is
> alien to islam, it's impossible to have a secular govt in islam. and
> the greater degree to which islam is a part of govt, the greater the
> repression of women.
But we've only seen a very particular type of Islam gain that kind of
power in government. A more liberal interpretation (which does exist)
would have no issues with women as equals.
Muslim religious leaders aren't calling for separation of church and
state. Quel surprise. Next you'll tell me that the Pope is Catholic.
>
> islam must change...fundamentally and radically so to speak. but it's
> not. it's getting MORE repressive and MORE regressive.
>
> last year a group of researchers published a list of the world's 500
> best universities. 8 of 10 best were in the USA. cambridge and oxford
> were the only non-US schools to make it in the top 10. (my undergrad
> school, pitt, made it into the top 50).
>
> several israeli schools made it.
>
> only one...only one single university from the ENTIRE muslim world
> made it and that was in secular turkey.
>
> the world's oldest university is in egypt, yet it's an intellectual
> slum. the problem is that islam is a fundamentalist religion and does
> not allow criticism or questioning. the tradition of ijtihad has died
> in the muslim world and has been replaced by fanaticism.
Al-Azhar is primarily a theological seminary and law school. It has
small departments for medicine and engineering, but it's not a liberal
arts school. As with anything, how you grade depends on the criteria
you review. Overall schools in the middle east are not on par with the
west. As I've said time and again the state of education is quite poor
and this is a serious problem. But at the same time some of the best
schools in the world for petrochemistry and chemical engineering are in
the Middle East.
>
> >
> >>
> >> no, no they don't. and that's part of the problem
> >>
> >> until fairly recently, most arabs (again not all muslims are arabs),
> >> suported bin laden and the use of terror against the west. CNN had
> >> polls before and after the bombings in jordan. before the bombings in
> >> amman. about 65% of jordanians supported terrorism.
> >
> >Supported terrorism, or supported the Palestinian uprising? Jordan has
> >a very large Palestinian refugee population, so of course you'll find
> >supoprt for the intifadeh, but terrorism on the whole sounds very
> >unlikely. Again, I'd like to see the poll.
>
> see the poll cited above. 75% of jordanians supported murdering
> westerners. a significant portion of pakistanis and moroccans do as
> wel.
See my response cited above. You're misrepresenting the poll.
>
> and the saudi arabians are the SOURCE of the wahabist/kharijite
> theology that justifies murder such as that practiced on 9/11.
>
> >
> >>
> >> bin laden would not be able to hide in pakistan without strong
> >> support. daniel pipes estimates that 10-30% of muslims support
> >> terrorism and the destruction of the west.
> >
> >Pipes is not only pulling numbers out of the air, but is also not the
> >paragon on impartiality on this matter. Pipes' agenda is quite clear.
>
> i agree that pipes polemics leave alot to be desired. but the problem
> is not pipes. it's the attempted murder of the pope in the phillipines
> by muslims. its the attempted destruction of 12 airliners over the
> pacific a few years ago. it's the plan to hijack an airliner and fly
> it into the eiffel tower. it's the recent success of the french police
> in breaking up a terrorist cell in paris.
>
> islam is the source and fount of terrorism. but nowhere in the world
> is it an inspiration for academic achievement.
>
> i work in the semiconductor business. i know ALOT of muslim engineers.
> they're brilliant
>
> but they DONT work in muslim countries because they have no future.
You'd be surprised how little infrastructure exists for semiconductor
manufacturing in Damascus. Of course they come here, this is where the
jobs are.
No, fundamentalism is not beautiful. What is beautiful to me about the
religion is the history, the ritual, the focus on works, the social
contract, and the Quran itself.
>
> >
> >>
> >> religious government always fail. they are always repressive. yet much
> >> of the muslim world desires this.
> >
> >Religious governments can exist without being oppressive.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion has a good list of
> >countries with an established State religion,
>
> having an established state religion in name is different than having
> it in practice. no one in the UK is compelled to worship in anglican
> churches and muslims are not prohibited from practicing their religion
>
> as i pointed out above, the degree to which a society has a religious
> govt is a measure of its repression.
>
> >>
> >> calling for the killing of all muslims is wrong. but islam is not a
> >> beautiful religiion. it simply is not. it is unable to challenge
> >> itself to grow. it is becoming more regressive, not less. and its
> >> failures are of its own making.
> >
> >Again, you ascribe the political failures of the middle east
> >exclusively to Islam.
>
> islam justifies these failures because much of the religion refuses to
> allow ANY questioning or intellectual growth. it refuses to allow
> women to participate in being human.
Only a fool would argue that women living under sharia states aren't
repressed. But not all women in the middle east live in sharia states.
My cousins in Eqypt (an architect and mother of two, and an MD
completing her final year of residency) would probably disagree with
your assertion that they aren't allowed to be human.
>
> the failures of govts in the middle east are generally due to
> corruption (for a good example of why arabs lose wars, check the
> article by norville de atkine on the web).
>
> but the fact is, across the world, islam justifies violence,
> repression, and ignorance. from pakistani madrassas to the taliban who
> bomb schools because they teach subjects other than religion, to the
> world's oldest university which is a slum, islam's intellectual
> heritage has collapsed
>
> and islam is unable either to recognize it or to do anything about it.
My point is that it isn't Islam as some central whole that justifies
these things. The Taliban is no more representative of Islam than Aum
Shirikyo is of Shintoism. Does extremism exist, and does it foster
repression and blind obedience? Yes. Does corruption exist, and does
it serve to oppress? Yes. The factor you're not bringing into the
equation is the existence of extreme poverty and real lack of practical
education in much of the middle east. The kind of reformation you're
talking about is going to require a strong intellectual movement and a
firm middle class neither of which exists sufficiently in the middle
east. My point is simply that Muslims are not evil people, and we
don't harbor ill will as is suggested by some. The potential exists in
the Muslim world for a modern intellectual society as evidenced by
Muslim communities in Western countries, and I can only hope that day
is coming soon.
wf...@comcast.net
i think a pre emptive attack on iran is premature..at this time
tomorrow may be a different deal.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> No, fundamentalism is not beautiful. What is beautiful to me about the
> religion is the history, the ritual, the focus on works, the social
> contract, and the Quran itself.
The ravings of a lunatic pedarist.
Bob Kolker
Stile4aly
And of course you've read it to make such a biting critical response.
Timberwoof
"Robert J. Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Stile4aly wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Please explain how I, as a Muslim, am your enemy.
>
> Your Jihad Meme, a form of thought virus is there waiting to be
> activated under the correct circumstances.
ROFL!
> Think of your brain as a computer and the Jihad Meme as the Allah'hu
> Akbar virus ready to go off and bring you to martyrdom. You believe you
> will enter Paradise without suffering the sting of Death and collect
> your 72 dark eyed houris.
Hey, that's good. I needed a good laugh today. Thank you.
> I want you at least 12,000 miles away from me and mine.
Good idea. He'll be safer that way.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
wf...@comcast.net
>
>w...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 5 Feb 2006 09:00:28 -0800, "Stile4aly" <stil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> the problem is that radical islam is as much a part of islam as is
>> suffism or shi'sm. islamism has the support of tens, if not hundreds
>> of millions of muslims.
>
>You haven't shown this. If you have some figures showing how many
>Muslims are Islamists, or Wahabbis then that might be more convincing,
>but asserting that it's in the hundreds of millions isn't evidence.
sure i've shown it because the people doing the killing are muslims
and say they are doing it because of islam. they have the support of
the wahabists in saudi arabia who fund them.
all of saudi arabia is wahabist. and i've given you the pew poll
numbers showing that millions in jordan, pakistan, morocco, etc.
support suicide bombing
in addition, the worldwide muslim terrorist menace would not be
possible without widespread support. where is bin laden? why has no
one turned him in?
and i remember the fat ladies in their black dresses in palestine
dancing in the streets and giving candy to their children when 9/11
happened.
and the madrassas of pakistan with their fundamentalist hatred...it's
virtually the only school system in pakistan....
>
>>
>>
>> and the preachers...the mullahs, the imams support it as well. you
>> forget that in islam, unlike the west, there is no distinction between
>> the umma and the state.
>
>But in modern day politics there is a distinction between the ummah and
>the state.
where? where is this supported? what muslim country supports giving
equal rights to all religions? what muslim country has a formal
distinction between mosque and state besides turkey, and it's under
attack even there.
not all muslims are terrorists, obviously, but the support for
fundamentalism and terrorism is widespread within islam, as the pew
polls demonstrated.
> An ideal Islamic society would be representative and thus
>the ummah would have a say in its own government.
but, again, there's almost NO support in the muslim world for a govt
separate from the umma. there's NO support for representative
democracy where islam is just one religion among many. your own
question begs the question...'an ideal islamic society'...it's an
oxymoron, and the fact that even YOU believe it shows how deeply islam
is corrupted.
Very few governments
>in the middle east are representative, and most of those that are are
>in name only.
and islam, when it comes to power, has never shown an ability to
protect human rights, the equality of women, gays, jews, etc. from
afghanistan to the sudan to saudi arabia, islamic governments are
repressive, inbred, insular and ignorant.
The post-WWII breakdown of colonialism in the middle
>east left a huge power vacuum which was filled by those who were either
>militarily strongest or backed by the US or Europe. This didn't lead
>to governments filled with enlightened intellectuals which could create
>the kind of Islam you're referring to, it led to corrupt dictatorships
>and puppet governments.
and islam reaped its own reward. islam spread by the sword, and the
europeans kicked them out. from spain, to vienna muslims were a power
to be reckoned with
but the religion became corrupt, fanatical, fundamentalist and fell to
the christian challenge.
>
>>
>> support for suicide bombings among muslims:
>>
>> http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206
>>
>> we see that in jordan, pakistan and morocco, there is a strong
>> majority of support among muslims for murdering westerners.
>
>No, there isn't. A majority Moroccans and Jordanians, and about 50% of
>Pakistanis and 25% of Turks. believe that suicide bombings in Iraq are
>justified. This being said, the report states that opposition to the
>war in these countries is "near universal."
>
of course there's opposition to the war. it's portrayed as a religious
war even though it's not. muslims reject any notion that anyone but
muslims can have power. its the very basis of the caliphate.
and you yourself admit the widespread support for suicide bombings
among muslims, above.
>>
>> the poll of muslims who hated jews was taken in the middle east:
>>
>> http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248
>>
>> showig that all jordanians and 99% of lebanese think jews are evil
>
>Again, you're misrepresenting the report. The poll shows that 100% of
>Jordanians and 99% of Lebanese have an unfavorable view of Jews. This
>may have something to do with the fact that these two countries have
>the largest populations of Palestinian refugees outside the Palestinian
>territories. The word "evil" doesn't appear anywhere on the page.
when memri.org reports that mullahs call jews 'apes and pigs', when
the protocols of the elders or zion are made into a TV program and
shown on egyptian TV, what do you think muslims from this area think
about jews? is there anyone who says jews are just people, though they
are the enemy?
hell, i've never said all muslims are evil, that muslims are pigs or
apes, etc. but this type of attitude on the part of muslims vs jews is
common in the middle east
and it's bizarre that, given the widespread repression of muslims by
muslims, they are obsessed with 6 million jews and their effect on
palestine. it's another failing of islam it's unable to develop a
consistent, coherent theory of human rights.
>
>>
>> 6% of egyptians are xtians. i wouldn't call that large. they are
>> subject to discrimination, find it hard to get jobs, and can not get
>> permission to build churches
>
>Not that I agree with discriminating against Copts, but it sounds like
>the Muslims in France are in a very similar situation.
no, they're not. certainly they face discrimination, which may be as
much racial as religious. but no one prevents them from practicing
their religion. no one is killing them for being muslim. they are not
excluded from politics.
>
>>
>> in saudi arabia, where sharia rules, christianity is outlawed.
>
>Likewise, I imagine you'll have a hard time building a mosque in
>Vatican City.
?? the vatican is a church govt. it's hardly comparable to saudi
arabia. and the vatican does not advocate the repression of non
catholics like the wahabists do when they send their money to finance
madrassas in pakistan and the USA. it's part of much of islamist
theology that non muslims are 'dhimimi's'. that's THEIR word for
it...dhimmitude...the 2nd class status of non muslims.
Saudi Arabia has Islam as the state religion, so of
>course other religions will be outlawed.
and the UK has anglicanism as the state govt yet
1. no one practices it
2. other faiths are not repressed (and it's ILLEGAL to repress other
religions).
>>
>> that's exactly my point. since the separation of church and state is
>> alien to islam, it's impossible to have a secular govt in islam. and
>> the greater degree to which islam is a part of govt, the greater the
>> repression of women.
>
>But we've only seen a very particular type of Islam gain that kind of
>power in government. A more liberal interpretation (which does exist)
>would have no issues with women as equals.
i agree. i never said that ALL of islam is fundamentalist. certainly
the world's most populous muslim country, indonesia, practices an
islam that is not fundamentalist BUT even there fundamentalists hold
alot of power. even there there's violence against christians.
and the support of repression and violence is so widespread and
common...witness the pew polls...that it can't be said that it's not
part of islam. certainly the people who hold these beliefs think they
are good muslims. and who are you to say they're not?
>
>> >
>> >I agree that the failure to separate church and state at the beginning
>> >of the 20th century as was done in Turkey is one of the geopolitical
>> >failures of the middle east. However, even countries that had secular
>> >rule (Iraq, pre-revolutionary Iran, Syria, Lebanon) were not models of
>> >western modernism. Separation of church and state is not the only
>> >answer, and I believe there must be a transition into full separation
>> >of church and state.
>>
>> but not a single muslim religious leader has ever said this. even the
>> 'quietist' school of islam, as evidenced by sistani in iraq, has
>> demonstrated that it wants a privileged place for islam.
>
>Muslim religious leaders aren't calling for separation of church and
>state. Quel surprise. Next you'll tell me that the Pope is Catholic.
but the pope has never called for the US to be a catholic state. the
archbishop of canterbury has never called for the govt to enforce
anglicanism on all british citizens. separation of church and state is
a fact in the west.
and you just made my point: the separation of church and state is not
part of islam.
>>
>> the world's oldest university is in egypt, yet it's an intellectual
>> slum. the problem is that islam is a fundamentalist religion and does
>> not allow criticism or questioning. the tradition of ijtihad has died
>> in the muslim world and has been replaced by fanaticism.
>
>Al-Azhar is primarily a theological seminary and law school. It has
>small departments for medicine and engineering, but it's not a liberal
>arts school. As with anything, how you grade depends on the criteria
>you review. Overall schools in the middle east are not on par with the
>west. As I've said time and again the state of education is quite poor
>and this is a serious problem. But at the same time some of the best
>schools in the world for petrochemistry and chemical engineering are in
>the Middle East.
like the american university of beirut? there are no good universities
in the middle east for the reason that there are no good
fundamentalist christian universities.
the problem is that islam, because it considers secularism invalid,
can not develop an academic model of a western university. why have
the israelis built universities that are world class but not a SINGLE
muslim state has been able to do this?
answer: because islam does not value secular studies. its view, as
naipul indicated, is that islam is so superior that other peoples owe
muslims a duty of service (dhimmitude).
>
>>
>> i agree that pipes polemics leave alot to be desired. but the problem
>> is not pipes. it's the attempted murder of the pope in the phillipines
>> by muslims. its the attempted destruction of 12 airliners over the
>> pacific a few years ago. it's the plan to hijack an airliner and fly
>> it into the eiffel tower. it's the recent success of the french police
>> in breaking up a terrorist cell in paris.
>>
>> islam is the source and fount of terrorism. but nowhere in the world
>> is it an inspiration for academic achievement.
>>
>> i work in the semiconductor business. i know ALOT of muslim engineers.
>> they're brilliant
>>
>> but they DONT work in muslim countries because they have no future.
>
>You'd be surprised how little infrastructure exists for semiconductor
>manufacturing in Damascus. Of course they come here, this is where the
>jobs are.
and why CANT such an infrastructure exist in muslim countries? god
knows muslim engineers are world class. why is islamic culture so
inferior that they can't compete on any basis but petrochemicals?
i've been in the business for 25 years. i've seen the japanese build
an industry. the taiwanese, the koreans and now the chinese
why not muslims? answer: because they're so obsessed with their
religion they don't have a culture of developing non-religious related
values. they are so obsessed with conquering the world via islamic
imperialism, they think it's magically going to happen, inshallah...
>>
>> i agree. the ignorance of fundamentalists is common both to xtians and
>> muslims. and it's for the same reason: both have a simple utopian view
>> of religion that they believe everyone must share.
>>
>> but that is not beautiful.
>
>No, fundamentalism is not beautiful. What is beautiful to me about the
>religion is the history, the ritual, the focus on works, the social
>contract, and the Quran itself.
and is the cost to the human race worth it? is the widespread
repression of women, the ignorance, the violence, the hatred that
islam preaches...worth a few poems by rumi?
>>
>> islam justifies these failures because much of the religion refuses to
>> allow ANY questioning or intellectual growth. it refuses to allow
>> women to participate in being human.
>
>Only a fool would argue that women living under sharia states aren't
>repressed. But not all women in the middle east live in sharia states.
> My cousins in Eqypt (an architect and mother of two, and an MD
>completing her final year of residency) would probably disagree with
>your assertion that they aren't allowed to be human.
agreed. but the mullahs and imams across the muslim world do not call
for this to change. there is not a religiously based women's right
movement in islam. all of the mullahs...all of the imams...say that
women's place in society is to be a wife and mother, regardless of her
own wishes.
hell, in saudi arabia, a women has to take her SON to the store with
her because she can't go alone without a male family member. and this
is not unique in islam.
women like your cousins are heroes...women who, hopefully...will
change the face of islam. they have the courage to defy the religious
leaders and they succeed in spite of, not because of islam.
>>
>> but the fact is, across the world, islam justifies violence,
>> repression, and ignorance. from pakistani madrassas to the taliban who
>> bomb schools because they teach subjects other than religion, to the
>> world's oldest university which is a slum, islam's intellectual
>> heritage has collapsed
>>
>> and islam is unable either to recognize it or to do anything about it.
>
>My point is that it isn't Islam as some central whole that justifies
>these things
and that's part of the problem with islam: there is no 'central
whole'. it's possible for tens of millions to support terrorism
precisely BECAUSE there is no central authority.
The Taliban is no more representative of Islam than Aum
>Shirikyo is of Shintoism.
not comparable at all. aum shinrikyo is not a worldwide movement.
there is no saudi arabia, no afghanistan for that movement. 75% of the
japanese people do not support it like 75% of the jordanians supported
bin laden before he attacked THEM.
terrorism and fundamentalism are as much a part of islam as
fundamentalism is part of xtianity.
there is simply no basis on which you can say that YOUR view of islam
is 'more' islamic than the views of millions who support islamist
terrorism.
Does extremism exist, and does it foster
>repression and blind obedience? Yes. Does corruption exist, and does
>it serve to oppress? Yes. The factor you're not bringing into the
>equation is the existence of extreme poverty and real lack of practical
>education in much of the middle east.
and where is the islamic mother theresa? poverty exists in s. america
yet christian extermists are bombing and murdering and calling for the
destruction of jews.
across islam, the message pouring forth from the mosques is
hatred...from the madrassas the message is that the west is evil and
must be destroyed. poverty is not the cause. bin laden is rich. al
zawahari is rich. most of the suicide bombers are middle class well
educated men. it's not poverty that's causing this, it's the message
of islam that it's a religious duty to murder, to destroy.
again, why are there no world class islamic universities, while the
muslim world rejoices in efforts to get nuclear weapons? answer:
because the message of much of modern islam is that islam must conquer
violently...must destroy.
education is not necessary. women's rights are not necessary. only
death, only destruction can bring islam to power seems to be the
belief of tens of millions of muslims
The kind of reformation you're
>talking about is going to require a strong intellectual movement and a
>firm middle class neither of which exists sufficiently in the middle
>east. My point is simply that Muslims are not evil people,
you are absolutely right: muslims are not evil people. there is no
support at all for that idea in any objective analysis
but islam...the religion...has a significant component that IS evil
and which CAUSES people to behave in a manner that brings death and
destruction to the world.
and we
>don't harbor ill will as is suggested by some. The potential exists in
>the Muslim world for a modern intellectual society as evidenced by
>Muslim communities in Western countries, and I can only hope that day
>is coming soon.
i agree that muslims DO have the capability to achieve as much as any
people in the world. i've seen proof of that in my own industry
the tragedy is that islam is preventing them from doing so.
Shane
> Shane wrote:
>>>
>>
>> What, all of them? 99.9999% of them do not even know you exist, and are
>> never likely to know.
>
> I never claimed to be their exclusive victim.
And funnily enough, I never said you were either. What you claimed and
I ponted out the foolishness of, was your belief that every Muslim in
the world wants you dead.
> I am just one of many
> potential victims. It does not decrease the danger one bit. Those who
> attack my country, attack me and my family.
15 or 20 attacked your country and most are dead. What do those
millions of muslims who did not attack your counry have to do with it?
> I live here.
Happily, I don't, I live in a country that doesn't go out of its way
to make itself a target of its enemies, (no I am not blaming the U.S.
for the WTC attack, but if you have a bumbling foreign policy, why be
surprised when pwople react negatively to it).
> These bastards are your enemy too, but you won't wake up to that, will you?
Nothing to wake up to. So maybe they are my enemies, so what? never
having met them, I can't say for sure whether they are or not. And
maybe they are not my enemies, maybe in your blind hatred of them you
are lying to me about them. The world is full of maybe statements,
they generally have no particular significance.
--
Shane
Ernest Major
wf...@comcast.net writes
>
>all of saudi arabia is wahabist. and i've given you the pew poll
>numbers showing that millions in jordan, pakistan, morocco, etc.
>support suicide bombing
>
Province - where the oil fields are) is Shia.
--
alias Ernest Major
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