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Sean Pitman  
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 More options Mar 10 2004, 11:21 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: seanpitnos...@naturalselection.0catch.com (Sean Pitman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:10:40 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Wed, Mar 10 2004 11:10 am
Subject: Crop Circles

drear...@hotmail.com (Von Smith) wrote in message <news:8d74ec45.0403071648.3273a8d5@posting.google.com>...
> > For example, if I walk by a house in the morning and find a window
> > broken I can rationally assume either a mindless or mindful cause for
> > that broken window as both processes could give rise to such a
> > phenomenon.  However, if I were to walk by this same house in the
> > evening and find that this window had been fixed, could I rationally
> > assume anything other than a mindful cause?

> I don't know.  If I cut myself and it heals, could I rationally assume
> anything other than a mindful cause?  

The reason why your skin heals when you cut yourself is not because
the molecules in your skin have some inherent individual capacity to
organize themselves in such a way.  They are only able to work to heal
your skin because of the existence of the pre-established order of the
incredibly complex information system that directs the processes of
the skin to include its self-healing properties.  If you don't believe
me, try cutting a dead body and see what happens.  The cut doesn't
heal itself.

Consider the window example again for illustration.  What if I set up
a very complex mechanical system that would sense when a window in a
house was broken and set about making a new window and would put it
into place when it finished making this window.  Now, is the fixing of
the window in this case a "mindless" process?  You may argue that it
is, but ultimately you know that without higher informational input,
the window, by itself, does not have enough informational complexity
to fix itself.  It must rely on a much higher order of pre-established
informational complexity, in whatever form, to be fixed.

So, in seeing a window or a cut on your arm become "fixed" it is no
problem to know that a higher system of informational complexity was
driving such a phenomenon.

> If I shake up oil and vineager,
> and then come back later to find it re-separated, could I rationally
> assume anything other than a mindful cause?  

The separation of oil and vinegar does not require the input of
outside information because the required information needed to give
rise to this phenomenon is contained within each of the individual oil
and vinegar molecules themselves.  However, if you were to find drops
of oil and vinegar arranged in a very symmetrical pattern around your
plate, you could adequately assume design because you know that such a
pattern is not inherent to either oil or vinegar, but would require
some sort of outside informational input.

> We know from a variety of
> sources that *windows* do not heal themselves or reform on their own.
> There are other things that do, however.

Again, you must know two things in order to adequately propose the
activity of intelligent design.  You must know the inherent
limitations of a give system and its individual components AND you
must know the potential of higher outside informational systems (such
as an intelligent mind at the level of the human mind or beyond).

For example, if you knew nothing about the normal crystallizable forms
of carbon you could not propose an intelligent origin behind a
perfectly cut diamond with 256 symmetrical facets.  However, if after
studying carbon in greater detail you find that there is no inherent
properties within the carbon atoms themselves or other mindless
natural properties in the vicinity that give rise to such a
cut-diamond form, you can then adequately propose the involvement of
an intelligent mind or at least a much higher system of informational
complexity that is contained within the cut diamond.

Another useful example is the "crop circles" that people made in wheat
fields in England and elsewhere.  Although there were a few who
proposed mindless causes when these symmetrical and ornate patterns of
circles first started appearing, the great majority of people
correctly saw evidence of a much higher intelligence behind these
patterns than can be achieved by any known mindless process - even
without having ever seen such a phenomenon created before by anyone or
anything.  How where these people able to correctly determine an
intelligent origin without ever having met the origin of intelligence
behind this particular phenomenon?  Obviously they were able to do
this because of their knowledge about two things:  They knew that
crops, by themselves nor in conjunction with any other known mindless
process, did not and could not make anything even close to these
observed designs.  The only rational option left was the assumption of
a much higher intelligence behind the formation of these circles.
Now, many people wrongly proposed an alien intelligence, but at least
they knew correctly a higher intelligence was involved.  Obviously the
most likely intelligence in this case was a human intelligence.  But
still, the fact that high intelligence or a system with much higher
informational complexity was involved could be clearly recognized
without having ever seen any intelligence create such a phenomenon
before.

Sean
www.naturalselection.0catch.com


 
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