Age of Diamonds
Ganesh
Age of the oldest diamonds.
All it's natural source of existence
Oldest recorded information on diamond
Sincerely,
Ganesh
http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
Ganesh
I needed the information on the following:-
1. Age of Diamonds
2. Origin of Oldest Diamonds
3. Oldest Recorded information about diamond
Sincerely,
Ganesh
http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
fnord
Ganesh
popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
diamond known on earth. 3) The oldest recorded information about this
stone.
Sincerely,
Ganesh
http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
Burkhard
Some time ago I looked into age determination of diamonds to see if it
had a forensic use (spotting "blood diamonds") but that did not work.
However, some links I found that you also might find interesting:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002AGUSM.V31A..08S
http://earthsci.org/mineral/mindep/diamond/age.html
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2077/worlds-oldest-diamonds-push-back-age-life
and from the somewhat more serious research side;
Age, origin, and emplacement of diamonds: a review of scientific
advances in the last decade
Kirkley, M B , Gurney, J J, Levinson, A A, Canadian Institute of Mining
and Metallurgy Bulletin. Vol. 85, no. 956, pp. 48-57. 1992
Inez
On Jun 23, 2:16 am, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
> I needed to know the following details
>
> Age of the oldest diamonds.
Google and 10.3 seconds reveal this:
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2077/worlds-oldest-diamonds-push-back-age-life
You should learn the fine art of typing things into Google yourself.
> All it's natural source of existence
Existence R Us existential emporium.
> Oldest recorded information on diamond
Define "Information".
> Sincerely,
> Ganeshhttp://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
Dr. Acula
Try fnording this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond
Robert Carnegie
I'm guessing that you don't /need/ to know, you just /want/ to know.
Which is good. Am I right?
I'm not an expert, but I was interested by the speculative hypothesis
that some diamonds - specifically the "carbonado" - come originally
from outer space. I don't know if that means that they come from
supernovae, exploding dying stars, but why not. Big Bang cosmology
says that originally the universe contained almost no chemical
elements except for hydrogen and helium, and other elements - and more
helium - were first formed in the earliest large stars, by nuclear
fusion. The bigger the star, the shorter the life, and the bigger the
bang at the end of that life - scattering the other natural elements
across a wide area of space. (The Sun isn't big enough to go bang at
all.) And perhaps some of that material was carbon in the form of
diamond. It could even be before the Earth existed, before the Sun
and its planets formed from a slight concentration of density in the
mixture of gas and dust and small collections of atoms of various
kinds that lie in outer space.
Nowadays, diamond can be manufactured; the successful processes for
doing this may offer new clues about the natural formation of diamond.
If you're interested in when diamonds were first used (by humans?
there are some clever tool-using birds, and the bower bird... nope.)
<http://www.australianminesatlas.gov.au/education/fact_sheets/
diamond.jsp> says "The first use of diamond may have been as a
talisman or charm by prehistoric humans. Diamond was highly prized as
a gem stone in ancient Egypt, Babylon, Mesopotamia and India. The
Romans used it to carve cameos from stone and exported diamond to
China for cutting jade and drilling pearls. Large diamonds were used
by kings, queens and other nobles as symbols of wealth and rank."
It also says "Diamonds were first discovered in India and Alexander
the Great was the first to bring them from India to Europe in 327 BC.
Alluvial gold miners in Brazil found what they described as 'curious
pebbles' in 1725, which was subsequently identified as diamonds.
Alluvial diamonds were discovered in 1859 in South Africa and in 1869
mining of the hard rock sources of these alluvial diamonds started.
Today, diamonds are also mined in Botswana, Zaire, Australia and
Russia."
That doesn't make clear when Egypt, Babylon, and Mesopotamia first got
their hands on them.
In the bible, the "New Electronic Translation" (by human scholars!)
uses the word "diamond" three times, but each time as a metaphor and
with a footnote to say "This doesn't actually mean diamond, it means
very hard." But each time slightly different. Here:
<http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=diamond&mode=&scope=net#>
<http://www.diamond-experts.com/diamonds_history.htm> says "Most of
the historical diamonds that still exist are Indian" and "The Koh-i-
Nur Diamond, or Mountain of Light, has longest history of all famous
diamonds, as it was known to be in the possession of the Rajahs of
Malwa as long ago as 1304"
( <http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Iran/North/Tehran/
blog-403000.html> says it was /theirs/), but what about older relics
that aren't in history books? Google "ancient Roman diamond" only
brings up eBay categories and is suspect (even - especially? - the
Italian version), "ancient Babylonian diamond" nothing at all. (Well,
ountil Google sees this article.) Egyptian, Mesopotamian - still
nothing. "Persian Diamond is a free adult porn site including a very
large archive of movies and pictures in various categories." Ri-
ight. No use unless they have - well, never mind what they have.
Back in the bible,
<http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Exo%2028:17-20> mentions
"four rows of stones, a row with a ruby, a topaz, and a beryl – the
first row; and the second row, a turquoise, a sapphire, and an
emerald; and the third row, a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst; and
the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx, and a jasper." But apparently
here too there's doubt about what precious stones are really meant by
the original words, and, since it's Exodus, whether it even happened.
But ruby is used a lot in the bible to mean "this is very valuable".
Chris
New diamonds are formed whenever that episode of _Superman_ is aired.
Chris
harry k
I suggest dthat you misunderstand the term 'researching'. That
involves actually doing some searching. Asking other people to do it
for you is not 'research'.
Harry K
Walter Bushell
<f3cd566c-a740-496f...@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
harry k <turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
After you have your own grad students it is. :<
Ganesh
> Ganesh wrote:
> >Diamondis one of the hardest materials on earth. This stone has a
> > popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
>
> > I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
> > any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
> > stone.
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Ganesh
> >http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
>
> Some time ago I looked into age determination of diamonds to see if it
> had a forensic use (spotting "blood diamonds") but that did not work.
> However, some links I found that you also might find interesting:
>
>
> and from the somewhat more serious research side;
>
> Age, origin, and emplacement of diamonds: a review of scientific
> advances in the last decade
> Kirkley, M B , Gurney, J J, Levinson, A A, Canadian Institute of Mining
> and Metallurgy Bulletin. Vol. 85, no. 956, pp. 48-57. 1992
thanks for the links.
I will use this "Does carbon mean life?" for another debate at another
thread
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2077/worlds-oldest-diamonds-push-back-age-life?page=0%2C1
There's a authentic writing in a old literature possibly indicating
that 9 important Gems Stones of India are produced from Animal/Animal
Fossils.
Ganesh
> I suggest dthat you misunderstand the term 'researching'. That
> involves actually doing some searching. Asking other people to do it
> for you is not 'research'.
>
> Harry K
I do not thing that is a valid, if I tomorrow publish a manual on
diamond..... let's assume i do, I will surely mention this thread in
it.
And, I am digging out information about diamonds all on my own too :-)
Ganesh
> > popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
>
> > I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
> > any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
Ganesh
> On Jun 23, 9:46 am, Ganesh <ganesh.growthsoluti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
>
> > I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
> > any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
> > stone.
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Ganesh <http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/>
>
> I'm guessing that you don't /need/ to know, you just /want/ to know.
> Which is good. Am I right?
>
> I'm not an expert, but I was interested by the speculative hypothesis
> that some diamonds - specifically the "carbonado" - come originally
> from outer space. I don't know if that means that they come from
> supernovae, exploding dying stars, but why not. Big Bang cosmology
> says that originally the universe contained almost no chemical
> elements except for hydrogen and helium, and other elements - and more
> helium - were first formed in the earliest large stars, by nuclear
> fusion. The bigger the star, the shorter the life, and the bigger the
> bang at the end of that life - scattering the other natural elements
> across a wide area of space. (The Sun isn't big enough to go bang at
> and its planets formed from a slight concentration of density in the
> mixture of gas and dust and small collections of atoms of various
> kinds that lie in outer space.
>
> doing this may offer new clues about the natural formation ofdiamond.
>
> If you're interested in when diamonds were first used (by humans?
> there are some clever tool-using birds, and the bower bird... nope.)
> talisman or charm by prehistoric humans.Diamondwas highly prized as
> a gem stone in ancient Egypt, Babylon, Mesopotamia and India. The
> Romans used it to carve cameos from stone and exporteddiamondto
> China for cutting jade and drilling pearls. Large diamonds were used
> by kings, queens and other nobles as symbols of wealth and rank."
>
> It also says "Diamonds were first discovered in India and Alexander
> the Great was the first to bring them from India to Europe in 327 BC.
> Alluvial gold miners in Brazil found what they described as 'curious
> pebbles' in 1725, which was subsequently identified as diamonds.
> Alluvial diamonds were discovered in 1859 in South Africa and in 1869
> mining of the hard rock sources of these alluvial diamonds started.
> Today, diamonds are also mined in Botswana, Zaire, Australia and
> Russia."
>
> That doesn't make clear when Egypt, Babylon, and Mesopotamia first got
> their hands on them.
>
> In the bible, the "New Electronic Translation" (by human scholars!)
> uses the word "diamond" three times, but each time as a metaphor and
> very hard." But each time slightly different. Here:
> <http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=diamond&mode=&scope=net#>
>
> <http://www.diamond-experts.com/diamonds_history.htm> says "Most of
> the historical diamonds that still exist are Indian" and "The Koh-i-
> diamonds, as it was known to be in the possession of the Rajahs of
> Malwa as long ago as 1304"
> ( <http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Iran/North/Tehran/
> blog-403000.html> says it was /theirs/), but what about older relics
> brings up eBay categories and is suspect (even - especially? - the
> ountil Google sees this article.) Egyptian, Mesopotamian - still
> large archive of movies and pictures in various categories." Ri-
> ight. No use unless they have - well, never mind what they have.
>
> Back in the bible,
> <http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Exo%2028:17-20> mentions
> "four rows of stones, a row with a ruby, a topaz, and a beryl – the
> first row; and the second row, a turquoise, a sapphire, and an
> emerald; and the third row, a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst; and
> the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx, and a jasper." But apparently
> here too there's doubt about what precious stones are really meant by
> the original words, and, since it's Exodus, whether it even happened.
> But ruby is used a lot in the bible to mean "this is very valuable".
As per a popular myth in India, the koh-i-noor diamond is the oldest
known diamond. The diamond should be older than 3228 BC.
Referrer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna#Birth
Referrer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor#Origins_and_early_history
Referrer: http://srimadbhagavatam.com/sb/10/56/en
Ganesh
Robert Carnegie
> On Jun 24, 3:36 am, Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ganesh wrote:
> > >Diamondis one of the hardest materials on earth. This stone has a
> > > popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
>
> > > I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
> > > any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
> > >diamondknown on earth. 3) The oldest recorded information about this
> > > stone.
>
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Ganesh
> > >http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
>
> > Some time ago I looked into age determination of diamonds to see if it
> > had a forensic use (spotting "blood diamonds") but that did not work.
> > However, some links I found that you also might find interesting:
>
>
> > and from the somewhat more serious research side;
>
> > Age, origin, and emplacement of diamonds: a review of scientific
> > advances in the last decade
> > Kirkley, M B , Gurney, J J, Levinson, A A, Canadian Institute of Mining
> > and Metallurgy Bulletin. Vol. 85, no. 956, pp. 48-57. 1992
>
> thanks for the links.
>
> I will use this "Does carbon mean life?" for another debate at another
Interesting. They're arguing that /either/ the make-up of some
diamonds indicates that life existed /very/ early in Earth's
existence, in the "Hadean", /or/ the test isn't valid evidence of life
activity at /any/ time, but of some mysterious chemical process that
produces the same effect, i.e. sorting the isotopes carbon-12 and
carbon-13, which are chemically identical except for the mass of the
atom - which in chemistry usually matters almost not at all. But
apparently matters in biochemistry.
I think some of the tests for life on Mars in the Viking lander probes
gave a positive but inconsistent result that they decided was due to
an unexpected chemical reaction instead, which was interesting too.
> There's a authentic writing in a old literature possibly indicating
> that 9 important Gems Stones of India are produced from Animal/Animal
> Fossils.
Many of us here will be extremely sceptical of that. The older the
writing is, so we say, the less authentic it is. "What! So the world
hatched out of an egg laid by the Great Chicken! ...So why wasn't the
world a baby chicken?"
However, some animals make use of inorganic material - don't birds
take grit in their mouths to help with chewing? (I think that's what
put the chicken into my mind.) If there's gem material mixed into
that... it would be on a very small scale.
And of course dragons are said to hoard gold and precious jewels - and
we're back to thinking about magpies - but they are not the origin of
those valuable things. But say a dragon's lair in a mountain cave
collapsed and trapped the creature with its stolen goods - then
archaeologists would find them buried together.
Kermit
Even as a kid I always wondered how them came out of his hand already
cut. Or did that not happen with recent Supermans?
Kermit
Frank J
This is Saturday, so the correct answer is 2 days. ;-)
Kidding aside (and still test fnord posting), if you can get YECs and
OECs to challenge *each other* - and not "Darwinists" - on their
mutually contradictory answers, you will have accomplished more than
most.
harry k
> In article
> <f3cd566c-a740-496f-bee4-4bf2ae83a...@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'll award you 5 points for that :)
Harry K
Ganesh
> > popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
>
> > I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
> > any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
> > stone.
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Ganeshhttp://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
>
> I suggest dthat you misunderstand the term 'researching'. That
> involves actually doing some searching. Asking other people to do it
> for you is not 'research'.
>
> Harry K
unbiased. I am trying to achieve the same by posting details here.
r norman
There is nothing wrong with asking a group questions to assist your
own research. However you will get far more detailed responses and
far more respectful treatment if you indicate what you have already
found out and ask about details that still remain unsettled. For
example, if you don't even know what Wikipedia says about 'Diamond'
then you don't deserve any courtesy here at all.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord
I don't recall seeing it lately, but it wouldn't be a great visual[*]
if he handed out uncut diamonds and I suppose he just rubs them
between fingers and palm to get that window-injuring shiny sharp-edged
finish.
Here's another science question. Can Superman suck all the air out of
a room? And if so, where did the air go, and why?
[*] And here's a word to scrub from your mind: Coprolite.
Burkhard
> On Jun 24, 3:36 am, Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ganesh wrote:
> > >Diamondis one of the hardest materials on earth. This stone has a
> > > popular saying "diamonds are for ever".
>
> > > I am researching this stone, 1) I wanted to know if anyone here had
> > > any information about its origin on earth. 2) The oldest of the
> > >diamondknown on earth. 3) The oldest recorded information about this
> > > stone.
>
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Ganesh
> > >http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/
>
> > Some time ago I looked into age determination of diamonds to see if it
> > had a forensic use (spotting "blood diamonds") but that did not work.
> > However, some links I found that you also might find interesting:
>
>
> > and from the somewhat more serious research side;
>
> > Age, origin, and emplacement of diamonds: a review of scientific
> > advances in the last decade
> > Kirkley, M B , Gurney, J J, Levinson, A A, Canadian Institute of Mining
> > and Metallurgy Bulletin. Vol. 85, no. 956, pp. 48-57. 1992
>
> thanks for the links.
>
> I will use this "Does carbon mean life?" for another debate at another
>
> There's a authentic writing in a old literature possibly indicating
> that 9 important Gems Stones of India are produced from Animal/Animal
> Fossils.
Do you have any further references, I'd be interested. Gemstomes
(partly) from organic matter are of course neither unusual nor rare.
Coral gemstones and Petrified wood agate are two examples
Robert Carnegie: Fnord
But if you're seriously interested, you shouldn't /trust/ what
Wikipedia says about any subject. Particularly if Wikipedia says
"don't know". The Wikipedia article may be either taken straight from
an print encyclopaedia a hundred years old that's out of copyright, or
written as a high school project, or interfered with by interested
parties (in this case diamond mining companies for instance), or all
of the above.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Domain_Resource>
In fact, if you want to know for sure, looking at Wikipedia is a waste
of time, except for references. And the same objections arise there
too: are they /good/ references?
r norman
I concur about not relying on Wikipedia without cross checking and I
have said so in other threads. However it really is a good first
place to look. I don't care whether the Wikipedia diamond article was
written by mining companies, its information on the age and geological
formation of diamonds agrees with what I have seen many other places.
So in this case and for the purpose of the original poster, it seems
to be a suitable source.
I recall finding a google reference to some relatively obscure
cellular physiology phenomenon that was a curious mixture of
relatively sophisticated and accurate technical writing mixed with
some incredibly naive writing style and misinterpretation of evidence.
Tracing the sources back it turned out to be an undergraduate paper
written by a student I knew but for a different course. I felt it
would be an invasion of privacy to ask my colleague what grade he
awarded the paper but he did admit to having read it and also saw the
inconsistencies in style and level. That combination is commonplace
in student writing that cribs a little too much from the technical
literature that gets blended in with the student's own thoughts to
avoid being caught for plagiarism.
G. Acharya
> There is nothing wrong with asking a group questions to assist your
> own research. However you will get far more detailed responses and
> far more respectful treatment if you indicate what you have already
> found out and ask about details that still remain unsettled. For
> example, if you don't even know what Wikipedia says about 'Diamond'
> then you don't deserve any courtesy here at all.
I agree with you. I will try posting it that way.
Ganesh
Since you asked me to discuss a topic that I have researched. Then I
have a topic that I was already working on. I wanted to know if
Diamonds, Ruby and all other important Gem stones have any
astrological significance or initially were they used in the ancient
times as a Medicine, due to their healing powers.
Please check this work http://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/2009/06/jewel-therapy-lucky-stone.html
Desertphile
<gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
> Since you asked me to discuss a topic that I have researched. Then I
> have a topic that I was already working on. I wanted to know if
> Diamonds, Ruby and all other important Gem stones have any
> astrological significance or initially were they used in the ancient
> times as a Medicine, due to their healing powers.
Petitio principii.
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
r norman
Since I am the one who suggested you rephrase your question, I guess I
should have some sort of response.
Your original question dealt with the origin and ages of diamonds
which I interpreted to mean the geological origin of the mineral and
the age at which most mined or found diamonds originated geologically.
Since there are people at talk.origins interested in various aspects
of geology as they apply to paleontology and evolution, you might
expect some good responses on that subject.
However now you say you are interested in a astrological or cult
medicinal uses of gemstones. That is a rather different story and is
really an anthropological and sociological question about the beliefs
and practices of various peoples around the world and over time. I
cannot help you there and can only advise that your interest in
astrological uses is likely to generate some rather interesting and
fantastic (as in pure fantasy, not as in really wow super) responses.
David Iain Greig
> Since you asked me to discuss a topic that I have researched. Then I
> have a topic that I was already working on. I wanted to know if
> Diamonds, Ruby and all other important Gem stones have any
> astrological significance or initially were they used in the ancient
> times as a Medicine, due to their healing powers.
1) No, because astrology is fake.
2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
While astrology and quack medicine are both pseudo-science,
the only on-topic fakery here is Creationism.
--D.
Ganesh
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:02:55 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
>
>
>
> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
> >On Jun 28, 8:50 am, "G. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 28, 3:47 am, r norman <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> > There is nothing wrong with asking a group questions to assist your
> >> > own research. However you will get far more detailed responses and
> >> > far more respectful treatment if you indicate what you have already
> >> > found out and ask about details that still remain unsettled. For
> >> > example, if you don't even know what Wikipedia says about 'Diamond'
> >> > then you don't deserve any courtesy here at all.
>
> >> I agree with you. I will try posting it that way.
>
> >Since you asked me to discuss a topic that I have researched. Then I
> >have a topic that I was already working on. I wanted to know if
> >Diamonds, Ruby and all other important Gem stones have any
> >astrological significance or initially were they used in the ancient
> >times as a Medicine, due to their healing powers.
>
Ganesh
>
>
>
> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
> >On Jun 28, 8:50 am, "G. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 28, 3:47 am, r norman <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> > There is nothing wrong with asking a group questions to assist your
> >> > own research. However you will get far more detailed responses and
> >> > far more respectful treatment if you indicate what you have already
> >> > found out and ask about details that still remain unsettled. For
> >> > example, if you don't even know what Wikipedia says about 'Diamond'
> >> > then you don't deserve any courtesy here at all.
>
> >> I agree with you. I will try posting it that way.
>
> >Since you asked me to discuss a topic that I have researched. Then I
> >have a topic that I was already working on. I wanted to know if
> >Diamonds, Ruby and all other important Gem stones have any
> >astrological significance or initially were they used in the ancient
> >times as a Medicine, due to their healing powers.
>
>
> Since I am the one who suggested you rephrase your question, I guess I
> should have some sort of response.
>
> Your original question dealt with the origin and ages of diamonds
> which I interpreted to mean the geological origin of the mineral and
> the age at which most mined or found diamonds originated geologically.
> Since there are people at talk.origins interested in various aspects
> of geology as they apply to paleontology and evolution, you might
> expect some good responses on that subject.
>
> However now you say you are interested in a astrological or cult
> medicinal uses of gemstones. That is a rather different story and is
> really an anthropological and sociological question about the beliefs
> and practices of various peoples around the world and over time. I
> cannot help you there and can only advise that your interest in
> astrological uses is likely to generate some rather interesting and
> fantastic (as in pure fantasy, not as in really wow super) responses.
I will reiterate, has someone researched the "origin of superstition"
associated with the Gemstones. From my initial research around this
subject it looks like Gemstones have healing abilities. I did mention
a book where I took the reference from in the blog. There it said
"Modern Science Has Confirmed it" for the topic "Jewel Therapy" in the
same book it is said life span of a jewel when used as a medicine is
3-7 years, could be after that the stone becomes ineffective for
usage. This the Rishis had discovered in the ancient time itself and
is probably mentioned in some of the sacred verses.
Ganesh
> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
20-30 well known astrologers, there was one instance in my life were
predictions written by nadi astrology seemed true. But then it could
be a single fluke instance. I will surely cross check this one for
many more predictions before I completely agree or disagree.
> 2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
Here it says "Modern Science Confirms"
http://books.google.com/books?id=fzXbt2JuHvAC&lpg=PA77&ots=5_Tsw5DNAa&dq=rig%20OR%20yajur%20veda%20diamond%20ruby&pg=PA78
See Page 77
I am surprised when well educated people like you draw conclusions
without experimenting facts, without data.
Burkhard
Gemstones are extremely efficient in certain forms of psychotherapy,
especially the treatment of certain forms of anxiety, panic, mild
depression and such like.
If people develop anxieties after loosing their job, panic about being
unable to pay the mortgage and depressed that the can't support their
family any longer, giving them lots of diamonds often results in an
immediate improvement of their mental health.
Robert Carnegie
> On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>
> I do not completely agree with this. Though I cross checked about
> 20-30 well known astrologers, there was one instance in my life were
> predictions written by nadi astrology seemed true. But then it could
> be a single fluke instance. I will surely cross check this one for
> many more predictions before I completely agree or disagree.
>
> > 2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
>
> See Page 77
>
> I am surprised when well educated people like you draw conclusions
> without experimenting facts, without data.
It's not my field, but Wikipedia does state that ruby is aluminium
oxide, but the colour is due to chromium, which your source doesn't
mention. Leave chromium out and you've got sapphire. That is
expressed in terms of the theory of chemical elements, which is
relatively modern but I suppose that Indian holy men go on making up
stuff like this in modern times. If they anticipated the corpuscular
theory of matter, however, that would be big news. And it certainly
isn't the case that "modern science confirms" wearing gemstone rings
will ward off evil influences of the planets. A typical gemstone is a
crystal that has existed in its state for a very long time. Typically
it's handled in such a way that it doesn't dissolve or erode. Nor
does it act as a catalyst to material in contact with it. Light
passing through it does not alter its internal state, and it is not
used up in a few years. If a ruby was used up, for instance,
presumably the red colour would be washed out of it.
I hope that this increases your understanding.
Robert Carnegie
Until they find out that the diamonds belong to local Mafia or drug
dealers, or that people like that know that they've got diamonds.
Ganesh
Well, they will still have to buy that. If they were in America before
the crisis, they would have surely got a loan for that too.
Ganesh
> On Jun 30, 9:52 am, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>
> > I do not completely agree with this. Though I cross checked about
> > 20-30 well known astrologers, there was one instance in my life were
> > predictions written by nadi astrology seemed true. But then it could
> > be a single fluke instance. I will surely cross check this one for
> > many more predictions before I completely agree or disagree.
>
> > > 2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
>
> > Here it says "Modern Science Confirms"http://books.google.com/books?id=fzXbt2JuHvAC&lpg=PA77&ots=5_Tsw5DNAa...
> > See Page 77
>
> > I am surprised when well educated people like you draw conclusions
> > without experimenting facts, without data.
>
> It's not my field, but Wikipedia does state that ruby is aluminium
> oxide, but the colour is due to chromium,
The source states it is aluminum. The healing effect of the stone, the
source wants to say is due to presence of aluminum. I think I get that
clear. What is chromium to do here? Did you find an element the source
says is not present?
which your source doesn't
> mention. Leave chromium out and you've got sapphire. That is
> expressed in terms of the theory of chemical elements, which is
> relatively modern but I suppose that Indian holy men go on making up
There are many more things those are written in the past that many
researchers are after.
> stuff like this in modern times. If they anticipated the corpuscular
> theory of matter, however, that would be big news. And it certainly
> isn't the case that "modern science confirms" wearing gemstone rings
> will ward off evil influences of the planets.
Again, you debunked the entire episode as false without having
sufficient backing and personal research. If man in the past was told
that people can fly, they would have behaved the same way you do now.
A typical gemstone is a
> crystal that has existed in its state for a very long time. Typically
> it's handled in such a way that it doesn't dissolve or erode. Nor
> does it act as a catalyst to material in contact with it. Light
> passing through it does not alter its internal state, and it is not
> used up in a few years. If a ruby was used up, for instance,
> presumably the red colour would be washed out of it.
> I hope that this increases your understanding.
Again, you come up with conclusions just out of your mind.. Did you
actually try finding facts?
Robert Carnegie
> On Jun 30, 4:44 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 9:52 am, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>
> > > I do not completely agree with this. Though I cross checked about
> > > 20-30 well known astrologers, there was one instance in my life were
> > > predictions written by nadi astrology seemed true. But then it could
> > > be a single fluke instance. I will surely cross check this one for
> > > many more predictions before I completely agree or disagree.
>
> > > > 2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
>
> > > Here it says "Modern Science Confirms"http://books.google.com/books?id=fzXbt2JuHvAC&lpg=PA77&ots=5_Tsw5DNAa...
> > > See Page 77
>
> > > I am surprised when well educated people like you draw conclusions
> > > without experimenting facts, without data.
>
> > It's not my field, but Wikipedia does state that ruby is aluminium
> > oxide, but the colour is due to chromium,
>
> The source states it is aluminum. The healing effect of the stone, the
> source wants to say is due to presence of aluminum. I think I get that
> clear. What is chromium to do here? Did you find an element the source
> says is not present?
/Your/ source doesn't mention it. I did criticise Wikipedia but I'll
keep using it: high-quality aluminium oxide crystal is usually known
as sapphire, with various colours due to small proportions of other
elements present in the crystal body. If chromium is in the stone and
it is coloured red or pink, it is called ruby. Besides natural gems,
aluminium oxide crystal, including ruby, can be manufactured for
ornamental and industrial uses, since about 100 years ago.
I think that your book had a list of astrological gemstones and
somebody in modern times looked up the main chemical elements in them
to add to the list, but without taking account of the relationship
between ruby, sapphire, and chromium and other elements. Or perhaps
in astrology there isn't a distinction between sapphire and ruby. I
do not think that ancient rishis knew in any way that ruby mainly
contains aluminium ions, which you are misspelling - the American way
to say it sounds like "aloominum", the British say "al-you-mini-yum",
but both write "aluminium" - contains aluminium and oxide (oxygen)
ions. And chromium, and, as flaws, titanium oxide - "rutile".
> Again, you debunked the entire episode as false without having
> sufficient backing and personal research. If man in the past was told
> that people can fly, they would have behaved the same way you do now.
I don't want to buy expensive gemstones myself to test whether they
are beneficial to health. Your source tells you, not only to buy
gemstones for health, but to buy fresh ones after a couple of years
because the ones that you have will be no longer healthful. Obviously
somebody just wants to spread a message that will persuade people to
buy gemstones, and then to buy more gemstones. But in the United
Kingdom I can buy any medicine that a doctor prescribes me to take -
except for gemstones - for an hour's wages. Did rishis discover
antibiotics? Did they discover quinine? How about acetaminophen?
Burkhard
No, the therapy strangely enough only works if you give them the
diamonds for free.
Boikat
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there's a lot to be said
about the plecebo effect. Besides, a lot of "gemstone cures" have a
lot to do with *emotional* matters, so gemstones are effective to the
true believer because they believe the stones effect their state of
mind, so it does. Everything else is smoke and mirrors to lend some
sort of "believability", like the "life span" of a gemstone's power
running out, just like a battery dying. It lends a sense of "using up
the power", so it's "believable".
Boikat
Ernest Major
<b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> writes
>Ganesh wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 6:48 pm, r norman <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:02:55 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
>>>> On Jun 28, 8:50 am, "G. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 28, 3:47 am, r norman <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> There is nothing wrong with asking a group questions to assist your
>>>>>> own research. However you will get far more detailed responses and
>>>>>> far more respectful treatment if you indicate what you have already
>>>>>> found out and ask about details that still remain unsettled. For
>>>>>> example, if you don't even know what Wikipedia says about 'Diamond'
>>>>>> then you don't deserve any courtesy here at all.
>>>>> I agree with you. I will try posting it that way.
>>>> Since you asked me to discuss a topic that I have researched. Then I
>>>> have a topic that I was already working on. I wanted to know if
>>>> Diamonds, Ruby and all other important Gem stones have any
>>>> astrological significance or initially were they used in the ancient
>>>> times as a Medicine, due to their healing powers.
>>>> Please check this
>>>>workhttp://diamondbigs.blogspot.com/2009/06/jewel-therapy-lucky-stone
>>>>
a control (placebo)? :-)
--
alias Ernest Major
Ye Old One
<gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:
>> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>I do not completely agree with this.
Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
> Though I cross checked about
>20-30 well known astrologers, there was one instance in my life were
>predictions written by nadi astrology seemed true. But then it could
>be a single fluke instance. I will surely cross check this one for
>many more predictions before I completely agree or disagree.
>
>> 2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
>Here it says "Modern Science Confirms"
>http://books.google.com/books?id=fzXbt2JuHvAC&lpg=PA77&ots=5_Tsw5DNAa&dq=rig%20OR%20yajur%20veda%20diamond%20ruby&pg=PA78
>See Page 77
>
>I am surprised when well educated people like you draw conclusions
>without experimenting facts, without data.
Many have experimented, gems have no healing powers whatsoever.
--
Bob.
Ernest Major
<5796f6ad-f472-47bd...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> writes
--
alias Ernest Major
Burkhard
Ah, we are talking alchemy now, and the one way of turning lead into
gold (or diamonds) that actually works ;o)
Ganesh
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:52:00 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>
> >On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:
> >> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
> >I do not completely agree with this.
>
> Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
>
> > Though I cross checked about
> >20-30 well known astrologers, there was one instance in my life were
> >predictions written by nadi astrology seemed true. But then it could
> >be a single fluke instance. I will surely cross check this one for
> >many more predictions before I completely agree or disagree.
>
> >> 2) No, because gems have no healing powers.
> >Here it says "Modern Science Confirms"
> >See Page 77
>
> >I am surprised when well educated people like you draw conclusions
> >without experimenting facts, without data.
>
> Many have experimented, gems have no healing powers whatsoever.
Ye Old One
You haven't provided a credible source.
There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that crystal healing has
any effect whatsoever. Any pleasant feelings induced crystal healing
can be attributed to the placebo effect. In fact, where the placebo
effect can be ignored, in animals, it is considered a complete waste
of money. The British Veterinary Association issued warnings some
years ago against may "alternative" treatments including crystal
healing because it causes animals to suffer more by not seeking proper
veterinary treatment earlier.
--
Bob.
Ganesh
> There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that crystal healing has
> any effect whatsoever. Any pleasant feelings induced crystal healing
> can be attributed to the placebo effect. In fact, where the placebo
> effect can be ignored, in animals, it is considered a complete waste
> of money. The British Veterinary Association issued warnings some
> years ago against may "alternative" treatments including crystal
> healing because it causes animals to suffer more by not seeking proper
> veterinary treatment earlier.
>
I am not a total believer of astrology though I have seen it coming
true. Again, I have myself so far considered the true readings to be a
1-2 time fluke incidents. As far as jewel thearapy is concerned I've
just started studying it. So, as an when I will find new things. I
will keep that updated here.
But, then there are questions to ask. Does these heavenly planetary
moments around us effect us on a day to day basis. I heard they do
effect some people with Mental Disorder, these people hardly know
there's a moon in real sense. But then they happen
Ganesh
Ye Old One
<gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>On Jul 1, 3:30 pm, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
>> There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that crystal healing has
>> any effect whatsoever. Any pleasant feelings induced crystal healing
>> can be attributed to the placebo effect. In fact, where the placebo
>> effect can be ignored, in animals, it is considered a complete waste
>> of money. The British Veterinary Association issued warnings some
>> years ago against may "alternative" treatments including crystal
>> healing because it causes animals to suffer more by not seeking proper
>> veterinary treatment earlier.
>>
>
>I am not a total believer of astrology though I have seen it coming
>true.
No scientific study has found so.
> Again, I have myself so far considered the true readings to be a
>1-2 time fluke incidents. As far as jewel thearapy is concerned I've
>just started studying it. So, as an when I will find new things. I
>will keep that updated here.
>
>But, then there are questions to ask. Does these heavenly planetary
>moments around us effect us on a day to day basis.
No.
>I heard they do
>effect some people with Mental Disorder,
There is no evidence for that.
> these people hardly know
>there's a moon in real sense. But then they happen
>
>Referrer: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10820695
--
Bob.
Garamond Lethe
Interesting paper. It says, in part:
"There are no uniquely monthly gravitational components corresponding
to the period of the full moon, and the gravitational effects of the
various lunar phases are effectively the same throughout the month."
"However, the absence of a plausible scientific explanation for a
lunar effect has not deterred researchers from pursuing their
investigations. .... Despite this attention, findings remain
distinctly inconclusive."
"The general pattern of research findings has been well summarized
by Rotton and Kelly (1985) who performed a meta-analysis of 37
studies on the subject. This analysis revealed only a very weak
relationship between the lunar cycle and mental health, where the
lunar phases accounted for less than 1% of the variance in
psychopathological behaviors. Rotton and Kelly (1985) also
suggested methodological and statistical weaknesses sometimes had
led to the acceptance of falsely significant results—a point
subsequently reinforced by others (Culver, Rotton, & Kelly, 1988;
Cyr & Kalpin, 1987)."
Garamond Lethe
This, however, is not a good paper. The summary offers the first clue.
"Admittance to hospitals ... correlated with moon phases. .... However,
a number of reports find no correlation between the lunar cycle and ...
admittance ..."
A good review article would have gone into why there are contradictory
studies. This review article is closer in spirit to a book report.
XaurreauX
> If people develop anxieties after loosing their job, panic about being
> unable to pay the mortgage and depressed that the can't support their
> family any longer, giving them lots of diamonds often results in an
> immediate improvement of their mental health.- Hide quoted text -
>
Funny, I was just thinking that a cup full of diamonds would hit the
spot just about now.
r norman
A related paper, "Lunar cycles and Violent Behaviour", Aust N Z J
Psychiatry. 1998 Aug;32(4):496-9., says:
RESULTS: No significant relationship was found between total violence
and aggression or level of violence and aggression and any phase of
the moon.
More interesting, it goes on to say:
CONCLUSION: Future research could profitably examine the implications
of a belief in the lunar effect among health workers in the face of
evidence that no relationship exists between violence, aggression and
the lunar cycle.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9711362
Garamond Lethe
You can always tell the papers written by people with tenure....
;-)
Ganesh
tons of water has high and low tides with Moons rotations, and
interesting scientists cannot detect and changes in mood. God should
have made humans with brilliant shock-ups that moons rotations for
humans go unnoticed.
What about the birds flying in all directions when there's an eclipse?
Ganesh
> On 25 June, 10:49, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
Searching .... them... found nothing today.. but will find
something.... if some... else finds it.. Keep me updated about that.
Ganesh
> On 2009-07-02, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 1:52 pm, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
> >> On Jul 1, 3:30 pm, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
>
> >> > There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that crystal healing has
> >> > any effect whatsoever. Any pleasant feelings induced crystal healing
> >> > can be attributed to the placebo effect. In fact, where the placebo
> >> > effect can be ignored, in animals, it is considered a complete waste
> >> > of money. The British Veterinary Association issued warnings some
> >> > years ago against may "alternative" treatments including crystal
> >> > healing because it causes animals to suffer more by not seeking proper
> >> > veterinary treatment earlier.
>
> >> I am not a total believer of astrology though I have seen it coming
> >> true. Again, I have myself so far considered the true readings to be a
> >> 1-2 time fluke incidents. As far as jewel thearapy is concerned I've
> >> just started studying it. So, as an when I will find new things. I
> >> will keep that updated here.
>
> >> But, then there are questions to ask. Does these heavenly planetary
> >> moments around us effect us on a day to day basis. I heard they do
> >> effect some people with Mental Disorder, these people hardly know
> >> there's a moon in real sense. But then they happen
>
> >> Referrer:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10820695
>
> > got 1 more interesting observation
>
> This, however, is not a good paper. The summary offers the first clue.
>
> "Admittance to hospitals ... correlated with moon phases. .... However,
> a number of reports find no correlation between the lunar cycle and ...
> admittance ..."
>
> A good review article would have gone into why there are contradictory
> studies. This review article is closer in spirit to a book report.
Can you please point out some good resource I can get good research
document which you people can rely on.... or, tip to find these
Ganesh
Garamond Lethe
Garamond Lethe
If you can get to a good public library or decent university library, then
scholar.google.com will get you access to most peer-reviewed publications.
If the library you have access to doesn't have electronic subscriptions
to the journals you're interested in, then you're looking at either
interlibrary loan or (much cheaper) finding a starving grad student and
trading them Ramen for papers.
If this looks like it will become an ongoing hobby, then you should
consider becoming a graduate student yourself.
(For the moment, I will not touch on the problem of how you're going to
learn to read these papers. That's a skill and it will be very difficult
to pick that up outside of a classroom. But, first things first. If you
find a source for peer-reviewed literature and enjoy trying to puzzle it
out, finding a sympathetic professor should be a solvable problem.)
>
Ernest Major
<a52ab455-0955-49ba...@t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> writes
I wouldn't give too much weight to a single study.
--
alias Ernest Major
r norman
<gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
First: apropos of one of Garamond Lethe's comments. When you cut and
paste a url from PubMed, all the stuff beyond the actual publication
ID number and starting with the question mark is unnecessary and
should be stripped off. You should then check what remains to verify
that it still points to the correct paper. I "corrected" your citation
so that it fits nicely on a line. Very long url's often are broken
into separate lines by different news readers making them very hard to
reconstruct properly.
Second: apropos of Ernest Major's comment. The effect described in
that paper had a probability value of about 1 in 50. If a few dozen
people do such studies, what is the chance that one of them will
discover a statistically significant result at that level? Rather
high, actually. These researchers found no lunar cycle in total
stroke admissions, only in one category of stroke admissions. There
are many papers citing no result but it is often hard to get published
a paper saying with only negative results -- that there is nothing of
interest to see.
Third: and this is my own new material. There definitely are many
animals with behavioral and physiological rhythms entrained on the
lunar cycle. That is common among animals living in tidal
environments. The human menstrual cycle is well known to have an
approximately lunar cycle periodicity and occasionally people look for
some connection to moon phase there. Also there are a number of
neurohormones or neurohormonally controlled physiological phenomena
that are known to be entrained to light-dark cycles and, before we
adopted artificial lighting, people were subject to lunar cycles of
night lighting. It is entirely possible for there to be still
remnants of lunar entrainment that exert subtle, yet detectable,
effects. In other words, there could be some credibility in lunar
cycle reports. However it is well known that these effects are at
best very, very weak. It is also very difficult to separate true
physiological effects entrained on a lunar cycle from psychological
and social effects of the lunar cycle based on peoples beliefs that
there is an influence which affects behavior or simply on the ability
to alter one's night behavior in places unlit by artificial
illumination on the basis of the amount of night light. That is,
correlating some phenomenon with the lunar cycle does not prove there
is biology at work.
Finally, there is an enormous difference between finding a very subtle
statistical pattern of lunar influence and saying that this validates
astrology. My impression is that much of astrology relates to the
position of the planets far more than the phase of the moon.
Ernest Major
<r_s_n...@comcast.net> writes
personality whether you spent the first months of one's life in a cot in
a cold dark room, or in a pram in a warm sunny garden. Thus it is
plausible that within a particular locality there could be significant
correlations between personality and natal astrological sign - but for
all the efforts people have made these haven't been found. (As far as I
know all that the digging has come up with is the "Mars Effect".)
But neither this, nor putative lunar entrainment effects, has anything
to do with validating classical astrology.
--
alias Ernest Major
Ganesh
When moon stimulates a behavior pattern why not other planets? When
the earth itself being a giant mass moves around the sun due to its
gravitational/magnetic pull.
Do we wear caps on a shiny day? So, sun rays a type of electromagnetic
wave does cause a behavior pattern among the society in common. This
sunlight is intense in summer and less intense in winter. So, I can
now predict that when sun in a certain astrological position of that
year sales of CAPs will increase. Now when I do this. Do we call that
as ASTROLOGY?
Ganesh
Now, when I tell this to you "well educated" people, you will find
this inference rational. If I had to this on the other way round to a
Cap seller who is just wants to know when his business is going to
increase. I will tell him, when sun is in Capricon your business will
improve. This statement though irrational for him that time, will
sound to you rational now.....". So is my astrology false now?
Garamond Lethe
Because the mechanism that propogates the effect falls off with the
square of the distance.
<q>
The gravitational force exerted on the Earth by the Sun is on average
179 times stronger than that exerted on the Earth by the Moon, but
because the Sun is on average 389 times farther from the Earth, the
gradient of its field is weaker. The tidal force produced by the Sun
is therefore only 46% as large as that produced by the Moon. (According
to NASA the tidal force of the Moon is 2.21 times larger than that of
the Sun. The effect of the other planets is much, much smaller, with
the largest being Venus at 0.000113 times that of the Sun.)
</q>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tides
Ganesh
Thanks a lot for your valuable suggestion. Currently I am trying to
read though sources online. I am tied to my job..... But then, I will
try my best to present only the most appropriate source.
Ganesh
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:52:00 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
> >> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
> >I do not completely agree with this.
>
> Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
I did argue and proved my astrological prediction about Cap sales
improving when Sun is in cancer is 100% correct. I pardon I mentioned
Capricorn in this case.
check http://tinyurl.com/ljepmp
Now, do you say Astrology incorrect?
Ganesh
I have started to post using the tinyurl I did not know the actual
trouble otherwise. Thanks for bringing that over to me
Ernest Major
<e2cc390c-4002-4537...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> writes
--
alias Ernest Major
Ganesh
> In message
> <e2cc390c-4002-4537-8408-86b2e5682...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> writes
>
> >On Jul 1, 1:23 am, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:52:00 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
> >> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>
> >> >On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:
> >> >> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
> >> >I do not completely agree with this.
>
> >> Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
>
> >I did argue and proved my astrological prediction about Cap sales
> >improving when Sun is in cancer is 100% correct. I pardon I mentioned
> >Capricorn in this case.
>
>
> >Now, do you say Astrology incorrect?
>
> Yes.
And how? got an explanation?
Burkhard
I'd say yes, because as a causal explanation, it isn't "robust". If you
suddenly get a rainy seasons and the business falters, the astrological
explanation can't cope - the sun is still in Capricorn, and you do not
have alternative causal factors available. The rational explanation
that people will buy more caps if it is hot, and it is more likely to be
hot when the sun shines, and this is more likely to happen when it is in
Capricorn, can of course explain it perfectly - the first precondition
is already violated.
Vend
> Interesting papers out there. A complete SEA with millions of metric
> tons of water has high and low tides with Moons rotations,
That happens because the sea is large enough that the direction of
Moon gravitational pull change considerably at different points of the
sea:
the water that is directly below the Moon is pulled up respect to the
earth, the water on the other side of the planet is pushed down, and
so on.
Your body is too small for tidal forces to be significant: the
direction of the Moon gravitational force virtually constant on any
point of your body.
You would have to go near a black hole for tidal forces on your body
to become significant, and it wouldn't be pleasant.
> and
> interesting scientists cannot detect and changes in mood. God should
> have made humans with brilliant shock-ups that moons rotations for
> humans go unnoticed.
>
> What about the birds flying in all directions when there's an eclipse?
I don't know if they do, but maybe they became confused since the Sun
suddenly disappears.
Ganesh
I regret for 2 blunders above
1. It should have been "your business could improve." and not "your
business will improve."
2. It should have been "Cancer" and not "Capricorn".
What I want to suggest here is instead of debunking Astrology totally,
one must behind the mind try to find, if our Ancestors had an rational
explanation for the conclusions they had derived.
Burkhard
Yes, bt you still have the problem that simple,. direct correlations
might just work, while all exceptions would be ad hoc and inexplicable.
Good as a first step to get knowledge (observing simple, direct
regularities and making a connection between them) not that good for
anything further, and arguably even a hindrance - instead of looking for
the effects of rain, you might start looking for to other stars, and
that is when it all falls apart.
Again, observing the correlation of this with the seasons, and hence the
stars, is not irrational per se, because it is based on a real
correlation, but in the long run unhelpful because it stipulates as
causal what is at best an epiphenomenon.
> 2. It should have been "Cancer" and not "Capricorn".
>
> What I want to suggest here is instead of debunking Astrology
> totally, one must behind the mind try to find, if our Ancestors had
> an rational explanation for the conclusions they had derived.
>
I woudl not necessarily deny this - as I said, a firs start to order
the world, and of course for farmer-hunters, the turn of the seasons is
extremely important, which in turn correlates to what we observe in the
night sky. Elsethread, someone speculated that in that type of society,
the time of year you are born in also might affect how you turn out
later in life (e.g. how much sunlight you get to prevent certain vitamin
deficiencies etc) Same could be hypothesised for the diet of the mother
and it effects on gestation.
Ye Old One
<gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>On Jul 1, 1:23 am, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:52:00 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
>> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>>
>> >On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:
>> >> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>> >I do not completely agree with this.
>>
>> Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
>
>I did argue and proved my astrological prediction about Cap sales
>improving when Sun is in cancer is 100% correct. I pardon I mentioned
>Capricorn in this case.
>
>check http://tinyurl.com/ljepmp
>
>Now, do you say Astrology incorrect?
100%
Astrology, like religion, is something science has exposed as totally
lacking in supporting evidence.
--
Bob.
Boikat
Only in the same way that rain causes people to behave a certain way.
> This
> sunlight is intense in summer and less intense in winter.
Depends on which hemisphere of the planet you are on. Besides, the
same could be said about the "rainy season" causing an increaase in
the sales of umbrellas.
> So, I can
> now predict that when sun in a certain astrological position of that
> year sales of CAPs will increase.
Or that the sales of umbrellas will increase during the rainy season.
< Now when I do this. Do we call that
> as ASTROLOGY?
No. It's called a reaction to local climate conditions, just like
buying an umbrella because of frequent rain.
Boikat
Ye Old One
<gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>On Jul 4, 2:13 pm, Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message
>> <e2cc390c-4002-4537-8408-86b2e5682...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>> Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> writes
>>
>> >On Jul 1, 1:23 am, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:52:00 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
>> >> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:
>> >> >> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>> >> >I do not completely agree with this.
>>
>> >> Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
>>
>> >I did argue and proved my astrological prediction about Cap sales
>> >improving when Sun is in cancer is 100% correct. I pardon I mentioned
>> >Capricorn in this case.
>>
>> >checkhttp://tinyurl.com/ljepmp
>>
>> >Now, do you say Astrology incorrect?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>And how? got an explanation?
Its claims do not hold up to examination.
I remember a TV programme a few years ago (it may have been Horizon)
that got a number of top rated astrologers to do readings for a number
of people. They then mixed up the readings and handed them to the
people - the results were that everyone found things they agreed with.
It seems to be human nature to accept good things even if, in reality,
they were written about someone else.
--
Bob.
Boikat
Yes, since that is not, strictly speaking, astrology, and you know it.
Boikat
Chris
How about increasing cap sales when it's cold, or raining? Do clouds
and Carnot engines now govern our lives?
Chris
G. Acharya
> No. It's called a reaction to local climate conditions, just like
> buying an umbrella because of frequent rain.
>
But is there a relation between HOT or COLD and profession? Will
certain professions boom in certain months and certain professions be
slow during certain months and are all these directly related to the
SUN's moment?
Now rationally one can clearly predict for sure that "certain
professionals might suffer setbacks and certain professionals might
gain" depending upon SUN's presence in Cancer, or Capricon, or Gemini
for that matter. So, as I quoted before, since all this looks rational
from one angle it might not look irrational from another. Since we all
"might" not be as advanced in logic, as those people who "could have"
detected some relations of other planets to Human Life in the Past, we
will generally debunk this. Again, the followers of Astrology should
then not have studied the rational significance of Astrology it could
have become blind faith study where we only knew the results but not
the rational reasons behind them....
Again this is my personal "assumption". It has nothing to be facts.
Boikat
> On Jul 4, 4:27 pm, Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > No. It's called a reaction to local climate conditions, just like
> > buying an umbrella because of frequent rain.
>
> But is there a relation between HOT or COLD and profession? Will
> certain professions boom in certain months and certain professions be
> slow during certain months and are all these directly related to the
> SUN's moment?
You all seem to be playing some sort of word game here.
>
> Now rationally one can clearly predict for sure that "certain
> professionals might suffer setbacks and certain professionals might
> gain" depending upon SUN's presence in Cancer, or Capricon, or Gemini
> for that matter. So, as I quoted before, since all this looks rational
> from one angle it might not look irrational from another. Since we all
> "might" not be as advanced in logic, as those people who "could have"
> detected some relations of other planets to Human Life in the Past, we
> will generally debunk this. Again, the followers of Astrology should
> then not have studied the rational significance of Astrology it could
> have become blind faith study where we only knew the results but not
> the rational reasons behind them....
>
> Again this is my personal "assumption". It has nothing to be facts.
It's also *not* what is meant by "astrology".
Boikat
Ernest Major
<db7678fb-ff39-4fbe...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>On Jul 4, 2:13 pm, Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message
>> <e2cc390c-4002-4537-8408-86b2e5682...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>> Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> writes
>>
>> >On Jul 1, 1:23 am, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:52:00 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh
>> >> <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Jun 30, 2:06 am, David Iain Greig <dgr...@ediacara.org> wrote:
>> >> >> 1) No, because astrology is fake.
>> >> >I do not completely agree with this.
>>
>> >> Hard luck, it is a fact that you cannot argue against.
>>
>> >I did argue and proved my astrological prediction about Cap sales
>> >improving when Sun is in cancer is 100% correct. I pardon I mentioned
>> >Capricorn in this case.
>>
>> >checkhttp://tinyurl.com/ljepmp
>>
>> >Now, do you say Astrology incorrect?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>And how? got an explanation?
>
seasonal correlations, and astrological predictions.
--
alias Ernest Major
Vend
> In message <h1as45106k7didtf6cpqdpfs4poi2m2...@4ax.com>, r norman
> <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> writes
There may be also self-fulfilling propecies at work.
It would be interesting to study whether the magnitude of these
correlation is higher among the children of parents who believe in
astrology and live in a society where acceptance of astrology is
higher.
Ernest Major
<2d22e7bb-8757-478d...@p29g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> writes
Considering the lack of success in digging up statistically significant
correlations, it seems unlikely that any self-fulfilling prophecies are
at work. If someone did find something statistically significant, then
we could investigate whether it was the result of a self-fulfilling
prophecy.
>
>> But neither this, nor putative lunar entrainment effects, has anything
>> to do with validating classical astrology.
>> --
>> alias Ernest Major
>
--
alias Ernest Major
Ganesh
what is the definition of astrology
Ganesh
But, in the end isn't that astrology?
Boikat
The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the
belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly
occurrences and human affairs, including determining personality
traits., based upon when one was born, and the possitions of the sun
and planets at that time.
Now, you can continue to play word games, if you like, about buying
hats when the sun is in "such and such" possition, but people also buy
hats when it's raining or cold.
Boikat
Ganesh
Think rationally does that not influence?
When SUN is in CANCER summer starts. When it is HOT but naturally caps
sales will increase. People will start to buy them and there will be
good chance that people will buy them. There is a good chance that cap
sellers will be happy this time as their CAPs are selling.
> occurrences and human affairs, including determining personality
Thus there "could" be a personality trait in that direction. Happy Cap
seller, Happy Family
> traits., based upon when one was born, and the possitions of the sun
> and planets at that time
If sun is in CANCER the Cap seller's just born child will be in Good
influence from their family.
>
> Now, you can continue to play word games, if you like, about buying
> hats when the sun is in "such and such" possition, but people also buy
> hats when it's raining or cold.
I just mentioned one position of SUN in GEMINI-CANCER indicating
SUMMER.
If sun is in CANCER-LEO there could be good sales of Plastic Caps and
Rain Coats. But that too is directly relation to the Position of .....
> The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the
> belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly
> occurrences and human affairs, including determining personality
.....Sun
So, this is how astrology could have born.
Ganesh
Is that too not related to SUNs position in the ZODIAC?
Mark Isaak
> [...]
> When SUN is in CANCER summer starts. When it is HOT but naturally caps
> sales will increase. People will start to buy them and there will be
> good chance that people will buy them. There is a good chance that cap
> sellers will be happy this time as their CAPs are selling.
>
>> occurrences and human affairs, including determining personality
>
> Thus there "could" be a personality trait in that direction. Happy Cap
> seller, Happy Family
> [...]
Sounds plausible, except for the fact that such an effect has never been
observed. You'd think that if people 4000 years ago found that people
born at a certain time of year were noticeably happier, then we should be
able to tease out some such pattern today.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume
Mike L
> On Jul 3, 9:24 am, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
>
> > What about the birds flying in all directions when there's an eclipse?
>
> I don't know if they do, but maybe they became confused since the Sun
> suddenly disappears.
If my memory of solar eclipses is correct (and it may not be), birds
tend to stop moving and fall silent as the twilight deepens. But if
they do appear to "fly in all directions", perhaps they are in fact
quite systematically heading for roosting-places, as would be natural
in fading light. I can't begin to imagine what this could have to do
with astrology. As a child of the South Pacific, I find my mental
state here in England always improves as the days lengthen, with a
great leap when the clocks go forward for BST: all that shows is that
I like bright daylight.
--
Mike.
Boikat
No, it's related to temprature and precipitation.
Boikat
Boikat
Not in the context of "true" astrology.
>
> When SUN is in CANCER summer starts. When it is HOT but naturally caps
> sales will increase. People will start to buy them and there will be
> good chance that people will buy them. There is a good chance that cap
> sellers will be happy this time as their CAPs are selling.
The same can be said about buying caps in the winter, when it's cold.
>
> > occurrences and human affairs, including determining personality
>
> Thus there "could" be a personality trait in that direction. Happy Cap
> seller, Happy Family
Not in the context of "true" astrology.
>
> > traits., based upon when one was born, and the possitions of the sun
> > and planets at that time
>
> If sun is in CANCER the Cap seller's just born child will be in Good
> influence from their family.
Or Leo, or Cancer, or Taurus, or Libra, or Gemenii.....
>
>
>
> > Now, you can continue to play word games, if you like, about buying
> > hats when the sun is in "such and such" possition, but people also buy
> > hats when it's raining or cold.
>
> I just mentioned one position of SUN in GEMINI-CANCER indicating
> SUMMER.
Big deal.
>
> If sun is in CANCER-LEO there could be good sales of Plastic Caps and
> Rain Coats. But that too is directly relation to the Position of .....
And has nothing to do with "true" astrology. Besides, I hate to break
it to you, but there is a northern, and a southern, hemisphere. Think
of the implications on you "cap sales". Seems to me you "cap sales"
trends would be separated by about six months. If you "cap sales" was
directly (and I MEAN *directly* related to the possition of the Sun in
any particular zodiac constelation, cap sales trends woiuld be world
wide, no matter if you are in North America, or southern Patagonia.
Then, there are also the lands along the Equator, where hat sales is
probably pretty brisk, year round.
>
> > The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the
> > belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly
> > occurrences and human affairs, including determining personality
>
> .....Sun
Meaningless....
>
> So, this is how astrology could have born.
By ignorant goat herders attempting to give meaning to events by
corelating them to "signs". Note, the ignorant goat herders were not
stupid, just ignorant of the physical nature of the solar system, and
the universe in general.
Boikat
John S. Wilkins
Which version of Godzoneland do you hail from?
--
John S. Wilkins, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre
Ganesh
I've started a new thread for this discussion as the topic was
deviating from "Gemstones were used as medicines"
http://tinyurl.com/nko6ea
Boikat
The sun is *always* in a particular "Zodiac", and you ignoterd the
point. Or did the point soar over your head?. You are rapidly
approaching true "troll" status.
> I've started a new thread for this discussion as the topic was
> deviating from "Gemstones were used as medicines"http://tinyurl.com/nko6ea-
You're wrong in that thread, too.
Boikat
Mike L
John S. Wilkins wrote:
> Mike L <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 4 July, 11:19, Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> wrote:
> > > On Jul 3, 9:24 am, Ganesh <gan...@growthsolutions.co.in> wrote:
> > [...]
> > >
> > > > What about the birds flying in all directions when there's an eclipse?
> > >
> > > I don't know if they do, but maybe they became confused since the Sun
> > > suddenly disappears.
> >
> > If my memory of solar eclipses is correct (and it may not be), birds
> > tend to stop moving and fall silent as the twilight deepens. But if
> > they do appear to "fly in all directions", perhaps they are in fact
> > quite systematically heading for roosting-places, as would be natural
> > in fading light. I can't begin to imagine what this could have to do
> > with astrology. As a child of the South Pacific, I find my mental
> > state here in England always improves as the days lengthen, with a
> > great leap when the clocks go forward for BST: all that shows is that
> > I like bright daylight.
> >
> Which version of Godzoneland do you hail from?
The real one! Born Melburg, lived outside Sinny, forced exile at an
impressionable age, now Anglicized to the point of cultural genocide.
--
Mike.
John S. Wilkins
I hope that means you're committing it on the Poms. Eastenders is an
abomination, up with which we shall not put.
Robert Carnegie
> On Jul 4, 4:27 pm, Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > No. It's called a reaction to local climate conditions, just like
> > buying an umbrella because of frequent rain.
>
> But is there a relation between HOT or COLD and profession? Will
> certain professions boom in certain months and certain professions be
> slow during certain months and are all these directly related to the
> SUN's moment?
Here's something:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29>
(As a whole: controversial - in my opinion)
"the majority of Canadian ice hockey players are born in the first few
months of the calendar year"
"since youth hockey leagues determine eligibility by calendar year,
children born on January 1 play in the same league as those born on
December 31 in the same year. Because adolescents born earlier in the
year are [typically] bigger and more developmentally advanced than the
others, they are often identified as better athletes, leading to extra
coaching and a higher likelihood of being selected for elite hockey
leagues."
I inserted "typically". I heard the author on radio, I think. My
impression is that he enjoys too much proving himself right. A
careful worker would be more interested in proving himself wrong.