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Dunno  
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 More options Oct 25 2002, 2:43 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Dunno <muens...@hushmail.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:39:24 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Fri, Oct 25 2002 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: Neanderthal DNA

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Sean Pitman M.D. wrote:

> On July 11, 1997, the announcement was made in the journal Cell that
> Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) had been successfully recovered
> and sequenced by Svante Pääbo and his team.25  Of course there were
> statistical differences between Neanderthal DNA and the DNA of modern
> humans.  These differences were used to calculate the evolutionary
> divergence of Neanderthals from a common ancestor to around 550,000 to
> 690,000 years ago.  It is thought that Neanderthals then became
> extinct without contributing mtDNA to the modern human genome.  In
> other words, Neanderthals were just one of many offshoots or splinter
> groups that became extinct but who were not direct links to modern
> humans in our evolutionary branch.

> However, there are just a few problems with this theory.  One problem
> has come to the forefront with movies such as Jurassic Park and with
> the publicity of the O.J. Simpson murder trial where DNA technology
> played a prominent role.  Some problems that were brought more clearly
> to light by these media events is that DNA does not last very long.
> It breaks down fairly rapidly depending on environmental factors.
> Even under the most favorable conditions, many scientists believe that
> DNA cannot remain identifiably intact beyond a few tens of thousands
> of years. 27,28  In light of this fact, how could Neanderthal DNA
> avoid decay over the "120,000 to 150,000" years that is the
> hypothesized age of these bones?  This seems to be quite a significant
> problem.  Of course, the reports of recovering DNA from amber that is
> millions of years old are now being discounted because of this very
> problem.29

> Repeatability seems to be a real issue as well.  Not only is it
> difficult to confirm claims of ancient DNA recovery from amber
> specimens, but mtDNA recovery from Neanderthals has only been done
> three times.  Others have found it very difficult to repeat Pääbo's
> results.  Since the scientific method is based on repeatability, the
> whole issue of Neanderthal mtDNA and its implications comes into
> serious question.  Consider the following comment from Pääbo himself:

> "Preserved Neandertal DNA is likely to be rare, and the DNA in the
> type specimen [the 1856 Neander Valley Neandertal fossil] may result
> from its unique preservation conditions. &#8230; Most Neandertal
> specimens are therefore unlikely to contain amplifiable DNA. &#8230;"
> 30

> Despite these problems, Pääbo et al. seem to have overcome them in
> this particular case and presented their conclusions in the following
> statement:

> "The Neandertal sequence was compared to 994 contemporary human
> mitochondrial lineages, i.e., distinct sequences occurring in one or
> more individuals, found in 478 Africans, 510 Europeans, 494 Asians,
> 167 Native Americans and 20 individuals from Australia and Oceania.
> Whereas these modern human sequences differ among themselves by an
> average of 8.0 ± 3.l (range 1&#8211;24) substitutions, the difference
> between the humans and the Neandertal sequence is 27.2 ± 2.2 (range
> 22&#8211;36) substitutions. Thus, the largest difference observed
> between any two human sequences was two substitutions larger than the
> smallest difference between a human and the Neandertal." 25

> The conclusions drawn were as follows:

> "When the comparison was extended to 16 common chimpanzee lineages,
> the number of positions in common among the human and chimpanzee
> sequences was reduced to 333. This reduced the number of human
> lineages to 986. The average number of differences among humans is 8.0
> ± 3.0 (range 1&#8211;24), that between humans and the Neandertal, 25.6
> ± 2.2 (range 20&#8211;34), and that between humans and chimpanzees,
> 55.0 ± 3.0 (range 46&#8211;67). Thus, the average number of mtDNA
> sequence differences between modern humans and the Neandertal is about
> three times that among humans, but about half of that between modern
> humans and modern chimpanzees.
>     To estimate the time when the most recent ancestral sequence
> common to the Neandertal and modern human mtDNA sequences existed, we
> used an estimated divergence date between humans and chimpanzees of
> 4&#8211;5 million years ago and corrected the observed sequence
> differences for multiple substitutions at the same nucleotide site.
> This yielded a date of 550,000 to 690,000 years before present for the
> divergence of the Neandertal mtDNA and contemporary human mtDNAs. When
> the age of the modern human mtDNA ancestor is estimated using the same
> procedure, a date of 120,000 to 150,000 years is obtained, in
> agreement with previous estimates. Although these dates rely on the
> calibration point of the chimpanzee-human divergence and have errors
> of unknown magnitude associated with them, they indicate that the age
> of the common ancestor of the Neandertal sequence and modern human
> sequences is about four times greater than that of the common ancestor
> of modern human mtDNAs.
>      The Neandertal mtDNA sequence thus supports a scenario in which
> modern humans arose recently in Africa as a distinct species and
> replaced Neandertals with little or no interbreeding." 25

> If mtDNA was in fact isolated from the Neanderthal bones, these
> conclusions might seem reasonable until one considers a few more
> facts.  The Cell article itself noted that the range of sequence
> differences for modern human mtDNA goes from 1 to 24 with an average
> of 8 substitutions.  The mtDNA sequence differences between modern
> humans and the single Neanderthal fossil range from 22 to 36
> substitutions, with the average being 27.  In other words, the two
> most different humans analyzed in this study, as far as mtDNA
> substitutions are concerned, are different by 24 substitutions.  The
> closest that any human in this study was to the single specimen of
> Neanderthal mtDNA was 22 substitutions.  This means that there are
> some people living today that are closer to Neanderthals in their
> mtDNA sequencing than they are to some other modern human beings.
> Someone might be found to be only 22 substitutions away from our
> Neanderthal, but 24 substitutions away from his own next-door
> neighbor.  Interesting isn't it?  If Neanderthals are classed as
> separate species because of these differences, which one of our modern
> human volunteers should be classify as a separate species?  Perhaps
> the one who had only 22 substitutions different from the Neanderthal?
> Or, maybe his neighbor who had 24 substitutions away from him?

> There have been attempts by popular scientists to describe exactly how
> this mtDNA evidence turns Neanderthals into separate species.  Some
> describe it as a group of early Homo sapiens huddled around a fire.
> Some are shoulder to shoulder while others, on the other side of the
> fire might be several feet away... maybe even 24 feet away.  However,
> the average distance that any one person is from any other person is
> just 8 feet.  Now we notice a dark Neanderthal figure  in the shadows
> far from the fire.  He averages 27 feet away from any given Homo
> sapien huddled around the fire.  Obviously therefore, he is an
> outsider, a different species all together.

> However closer inspection  reveals that some of those huddled around
> the fire are closer to the Neanderthal than they are to certain others
> that are also huddled around the fire.  Does that make them more
> closely related to Neanderthals, who belong to a completely different
> species, than to certain members of their own species?  This sounds
> rather silly does it not?  And yet, this is what must be the obvious
> conclusion.  For example, what if we started with the Neanderthal
> specimen and then picked a person at random out of a crowd.  We might
> get someone who is different by 24 substitutions from our Neanderthal
> specimen.  Now, we pick someone else out of the crowd who just so
> happens to also be different by 24 substitutions from our Neanderthal
> specimen and by 24 substitutions from our first human volunteer.
> Which one is the new species?  They are all equidistant from each
> other.  In order to visualize the problem, draw three dots on a piece
> of paper, one for each of our two volunteers and the third dot for our
> Neanderthal "volunteer."  Make sure to draw each one on the paper
> separated by 24 units of measure from each of the other two dots.
> Now, pick the one that is the new species and the two that belong to
> the same species.  Maybe there are three separate species represented
> here?  However, all one would have to do to disprove this notion is
> get two of the volunteers to "produce offspring" so to speak.  If that
> happened, the entire notion that a separation of 20 or so
> substitutions makes for a new species, would have to be... well...
> revised somewhat.

> Why this problem has not been more publicly recognized seems rather
> strange.  I am sure that I am not the first one to wonder about this.
> And yet, popular scientist seem not even to be aware that there is
> this problem.  It seems that the statistical averages of 8 and 27 are
> so different that this squelches any suggestion that there might be a
> problem.  Using this average difference as a basis for their
> conclusions,  Kahn and Gibbons wrote in the journal Science that these
> averages put Neanderthal out of the statistical range of modern human
> variation.31

> This statement is clearly misguided because not only are there humans
> living today with wider separations between them than our Neanderthal
> friend, but it is a statistical error or pitfall to compare many
> different entities with just one entity.  In other words, we do not
> know what the Neanderthal mtDNA average is if there is just one
> specimen.  How then can we know if this one Neanderthal was not a
> statistical outlier?  How do we know that if we but had more
> Neanderthal samples that the average would not be closer to that of
> modern humans?

> As it turns out, since the first sequence was obtained by Pääbo and
> his team, there have been two more Neanderthals found who's mtDNA was
> intact enough to sequence.  The second sequence was done in 1999 on a
> baby discovered in Mesmaiskaya Cave in south-western Russia.  This
> Neanderthal baby is thought to have died 29,000 years ago.  The
> sequence of this baby differed from the first sequence by 12
> substitutions.  The average number of substitutions between the second
> Neanderthal mtDNA ("Baby M" for short) and a given human is 22 as
> compared to 27 from the first Neanderthal sequence.46,47  In other
> words, Baby M was "closer to the Homo sapien fire" than the first
> shadowy Neanderthal.  This means that some living humans might be even
> closer to this second Neanderthal than they are to other living humans
> by quite a fair margin.  Unfortunately however, no figures for the
> minimum, average, and maximum distances between the second Neanderthal
> and modern humans was provided.

> The third Neanderthal who's mtDNA was successfully sequenced was found
> in a cave at Vindija, Croatia.  In 2000, scientists announced the
> mtDNA sequencing of this third Neanderthal specimen.  This new
> sequence fell within a 3.75% cluster of the first two sequences.48
> Modern humans cluster at around 3.5%.  This is a rather narrow level
> of diversity when one compares these clusters to chimps (15%) and
> gorillas (19%).  Various human ethnic groups also have rather narrow
> ranges of diversity in their mtDNA sequencing.  Of course, the problem
> still remains that some humans from certain of these ethic groups are
> more closely "related" to Neanderthals than they are to certain other
> living humans from other groups.  The question remains as to who
> should be classed as a separate species?

> Maryellen Ruvolo (Harvard University) points out that the genetic
> variation between the modern human and Neanderthal sequences is within
> the range of other single species of primates. She goes on to say:
> "&#8230; there isn&#8217;t a yardstick for genetic difference upon
> which you can define a species." 31

> Further confusion comes from the comments in the Cell article that
> seem to indicate that Neanderthals are more closely related to the
> ancestral "chimpanzee" than modern humans are.  This might not have
> been the actual intention of the authors, but one could easily get
> confused by the wording of the article.  The fact of the matter is
> that the single specimen of Neanderthal mtDNA was actually farther
> away from chimp mtDNA than humans are from chimp mtDNA substitutions.
> Clearly then, Neanderthal DNA is no closer "related" to chimp DNA than
> human DNA is. 32

> Also, the idea that mtDNA mutations can be used as a molecular clock
> have been recently called into question by the journal Science.  As it
> turns out, former ideas about the timing of this clock might be in
> error by as much as "20-fold."  The famous "Mitochondrial Eve" once
> thought to be around 100,000 to 200,000 years old, might now have to
> be revised to as young as "6,000" years old. 33,34

> D. Melnick and G. Hoelzer (Columbia University) tested the assumptions
> of mtDNA based phylogenic relationships and concluded:

> "Our results suggest serious problems with use of mtDNA to estimate
> 'true' population genetic structure, to date cladogenic events, and in
> some cases, to construct phylogenies." 35

> Jonathan Marks (Yale University) declared mtDNA determined
> relationships to be highly biased:

> "Most analysis of mitochondrial DNA are so equivocal as to render a
> clear solution impossible, the preferred phylogeny relying critically
> on the choice of outgroup and clustering technique." 36

> Given all of these findings, what seems most reasonable?  Are
> Neanderthals anything but human?  It seems like they fall well within
> human ethnic variation.  How then can we say that, based on such
> variations in mtDNA sequences that Neanderthals belong to a different
> group or species than Homo sapiens?

Thought experiment. Take a human with Robertsonian Translocation
and compare the altered segment with DNA from humans without
the translocation. Next compare with chimpanzee DNA from the
same segment. Compare the chimp to humans with the translocation
and also those without.

Isn't selective harvesting of data fun?

-

True  adj. 1 (a) Stedfast, loyal. (b) Honest, just.
           2 Qualifier for one's beliefs.

False adj. 1 Not genuine
           2 (a) Intentionally untrue. (b) Intended to mislead.
           3 Qualifier for others' beliefs.


 
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