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We are not alone

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Mike Painter

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Jun 24, 2012, 2:03:32 PM6/24/12
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No aliens from outer space, just more and more information that there is
nothing special about man.

"Dolphins are so distantly related to humans that it's been 95 million
years since we had even a remotely common ancestor. Yet when it comes to
intelligence, social behavior and communications, some researchers say
dolphins come as close to humans as our ape and monkey cousins.

Maybe closer."

http://news.yahoo.com/animal-smarts-dolphins-dogs-know-142349527.html



"The more we study animals, the less special we seem.

Baboons can distinguish between written words and gibberish. Monkeys
seem to be able to do multiplication. Apes can delay instant
gratification longer than a human child can. They plan ahead. They make
war and peace. They show empathy. They share."

http://news.yahoo.com/thinking-study-turns-ape-intellect-143151074.html

*Hemidactylus*

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Jun 24, 2012, 3:07:11 PM6/24/12
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Don't forget about pigs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/science/10angier.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/the-joy-of-pigs/smart-clean-and-lean/2126/

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/nat-geo-wild/wild-all-videos/ngc-hog-genius/

Or elephants.


Ron O

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Jun 24, 2012, 5:26:06 PM6/24/12
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> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/the-joy-of-pigs/smart-clean-a...
>
> http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/nat-geo-wild/wild-all-video...
>
> Or elephants.

Just think of what our descendants will think of us when they ponder
their transgenic soy-yeast cuisine and shake their heads about how
barbaric it was when humans would eat ground up cows as fast food and
make bacon out of sensitive and caring animals like pigs.

Already eating dogs, cats and horses are off the menu for a lot of
people. There isn't much doubt that pigs are smarter than dogs. Most
Americans wouldn't eat a chimp, but such bush meat is favored in parts
of Africa.

Crows may be smarter than your pooch, but we used to kill 10s of
thousands of them at a time when the US had a crow eradication
program.

I'm not prepared to give up my BBQ steak, but where are the ethics
going? The only conciliation we may have is that we can be just as
bad to other humans.

Ron Okimoto

Stephen Wolstenholme

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Jun 25, 2012, 7:37:00 AM6/25/12
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On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:03:32 -0700, Mike Painter
<md.pa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>No aliens from outer space, just more and more information that there is
>nothing special about man.
>
>"Dolphins are so distantly related to humans that it's been 95 million
>years since we had even a remotely common ancestor. Yet when it comes to
>intelligence, social behavior and communications, some researchers say
>dolphins come as close to humans as our ape and monkey cousins.
>
>Maybe closer."

Convergent evolution at its best!

Steve

--
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com

Glenn

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Jun 25, 2012, 5:35:27 PM6/25/12
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Atheist babbling has no place in science.

Steven L.

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Jun 25, 2012, 6:14:31 PM6/25/12
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On 6/24/2012 2:03 PM, Mike Painter wrote:
> No aliens from outer space, just more and more information that there is
> nothing special about man.
>
> "Dolphins are so distantly related to humans that it's been 95 million
> years since we had even a remotely common ancestor. Yet when it comes to
> intelligence, social behavior and communications, some researchers say
> dolphins come as close to humans as our ape and monkey cousins.
>
> Maybe closer."
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/animal-smarts-dolphins-dogs-know-142349527.html

In Larry Niven's "Known Space" series of sci-fi stories, in the future
dolphins win their rights as sentient beings. The Dolphin Nation even
gets admitted as a member nation of the U.N.




-- Steven L.

Robert Camp

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Jun 25, 2012, 6:20:30 PM6/25/12
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Agreed.

So where did you find atheist babbling in either the OP or its
references?

RLC

Ron O

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Jun 25, 2012, 6:23:17 PM6/25/12
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Have the dolphins killed off all the porpoises by then? They tend to
kill them for fun and use them as bean bags when they are doing it.

Ron Okimoto

Glenn

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Jun 25, 2012, 6:45:42 PM6/25/12
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Is this another comparison? Has anyone asked a dolphin what thinks
"fun" means in Swahili?


Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org

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Jun 25, 2012, 7:36:07 PM6/25/12
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We used to do that with the - never mind.

Instead, consider:

<http://espn.go.com/otl/hazing/list.html>

Mike Painter

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Jun 25, 2012, 8:17:43 PM6/25/12
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Sorry Glenn, the quotes are from scientists who may be atheists.
Many are.

Glenn

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Jun 25, 2012, 9:10:45 PM6/25/12
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Would you respond the same had scientists who were theists made
similar arguments of why humans were special?

Mike Painter

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Jun 25, 2012, 11:19:30 PM6/25/12
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Of course not you twit, the articles talk about how animals are very
much like us.

Had it been an article about how special humans are and if I had enough
interest to post a link my comment would have been different.

E.G. Science tells us that mirror cells may be responsible for much of
our morality and that there is no need to make up gods who are responsible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron#In_humans

Admittedly this is not about how special humans are because they are
found in other animals.

jillery

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Jun 26, 2012, 12:26:25 AM6/26/12
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On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <roki...@cox.net>
wrote:
If they did, then the dolphins had no porpoise anymore :)

Dale

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Jun 26, 2012, 12:28:20 AM6/26/12
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I think the more interesting difference is between animals and plants.


--
Dale

wiki trix

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Jun 26, 2012, 12:38:56 AM6/26/12
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On Jun 26, 12:26 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <rokim...@cox.net>
Reminds me of a very old joke (I recall from early 1960s when I was in
first grade)... the punchline of which was: "transporting gulls across
staid lions for immortal porpoises".

SkyEyes

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Jun 26, 2012, 1:12:12 AM6/26/12
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If they made them with as much supporting evidence, I'd listen
carefully to what they had to say.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

SkyEyes

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Jun 26, 2012, 1:13:48 AM6/26/12
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"Immoral porpoises." The porpoises did naughty things with the
gulls. The lions didn't care.

jillery

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Jun 26, 2012, 5:11:53 AM6/26/12
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Variations include "young gulls" and "state lions". Regional
variations replace "gulls" with "mynahs" and attribute conspiracy to
local aquaria/ocean theme parks.

Steven L.

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Jun 26, 2012, 11:52:09 AM6/26/12
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Killing animals for sport is another way that dolphin intelligence
resembles that of humans.

As for using animals as bean bags:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi



-- Steven L.



Tim Norfolk

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Jun 26, 2012, 12:02:35 PM6/26/12
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We could compromise, and start eating people.

Bob Casanova

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Jun 26, 2012, 4:54:55 PM6/26/12
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On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:35:27 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Glenn
<GlennS...@msn.com>:
Agreed, but what has that to do with Mike's post?
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless

Glenn

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Jun 26, 2012, 5:06:11 PM6/26/12
to
On Jun 26, 1:54 pm, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:35:27 -0700 (PDT), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by Glenn
> <GlennShel...@msn.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jun 24, 11:03 am, Mike Painter <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> No aliens from outer space, just more and more information that there is
> >> nothing special about man.
>
> >> "Dolphins are so distantly related to humans that it's been 95 million
> >> years since we had even a remotely common ancestor. Yet when it comes to
> >> intelligence, social behavior and communications, some researchers say
> >> dolphins come as close to humans as our ape and monkey cousins.
>
> >> Maybe closer."
>
> >>http://news.yahoo.com/animal-smarts-dolphins-dogs-know-142349527.html
>
> >> "The more we study animals, the less special we seem.
>
> >> Baboons can distinguish between written words and gibberish. Monkeys
> >> seem to be able to do multiplication. Apes can delay instant
> >> gratification longer than a human child can. They plan ahead. They make
> >> war and peace. They show empathy. They share."
>
> >>http://news.yahoo.com/thinking-study-turns-ape-intellect-143151074.html
>
> >Atheist babbling has no place in science.
>
> Agreed, but what has that to do with Mike's post?
> --
Are you a baboon?

jonathan

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Jun 26, 2012, 6:57:11 PM6/26/12
to

"Dale" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:5o83an....@news.alt.net...
> On 06/24/2012 02:03 PM, Mike Painter wrote:

>
> I think the more interesting difference is between animals and plants.
>
>

But the interesting part is what's ....common between things like
galaxies, plants animals, intelligence or even ideas.
Is the big answer that hard to see?

Heat water just to boiling but not quite, so that it's just at
the transition point between it's ...opposite forms.
This is a simple example of a 'critically interacting system'.


Definition of Complexity Theory

"The main current scientific theory related to self-organization
is Complexity Theory, which states:

"Critically interacting components self-organize to form potentially
evolving structures exhibiting a hierarchy of emergent system
properties."
http://calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm#1.1


Notice that definition is independent of the specific
nature of the system. It could apply to Darwin as well
as to cosmology or emotions. From the physical
to living or platonic realms.

For instance....


Fluids emerge from the critical interaction between
solid an gas. solid > liquid < gas

Democracy emerges from the critical interaction
between the rule of law and freedom.

The universe emerges from the critical interaction
between gravity and cosmic expansion.

Life emerges from the critical interaction between
genetics and mutation.

Ideas emerge from the critical interaction between
facts and imagination.

order > Emergence < chaos

solid > liquid < gas
law > democracy < freedom
genetics > Darwin < mutation
facts > ideas < imagination
gravity > space-time < cosmic expansion


And so on....in general

Self-organization emerges from the critical interaction
between order and chaos.


Einstein > Darwin < Heisenberg



s










> --
> Dale
>




Bob Casanova

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Jun 27, 2012, 2:05:25 PM6/27/12
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On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:06:11 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Glenn
<GlennS...@msn.com>:
>Are you a baboon?

Oh, so nothing at all? OK.

Mike Painter

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Jun 27, 2012, 2:40:51 PM6/27/12
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On 6/26/2012 9:02 AM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> We could compromise, and start eating people.

Utah Philips used to talk about his cafe in Grass Valley, CA.

Roast tom,
Chuck roast, and lady fingers were featured at
The Donner Party Inn.

Tim Norfolk

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Jun 27, 2012, 8:14:55 PM6/27/12
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The cafeteria at the University of Colorado, Boulder, was named for Alferd Packer when I was there in 1988.

Walter Bushell

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Jun 30, 2012, 8:04:11 AM6/30/12
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In article <-K-dneWUBPrbt3TS...@giganews.com>,
Mike Painter <md.pa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> E.G. Science tells us that mirror cells may be responsible for much of
> our morality and that there is no need to make up gods who are responsible.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron#In_humans



But OK, we carry the genes for mirror neurons in our jeans, but why do
we have those genes?

--
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