OT - Where'd the soul go?
Kermit
objections to mainstream evolutionary science are religious. It is not
an anti-religious news group, but a science versus anti-science
newsgroup. (Or at least, anti-mainstream science). I am not religion
bashing here; I thought of a question and am genuinely curious about
the responses from religious people, especially those who have simpler
and more certain doctrines - the Fundamentalists.
Human chimeras are mostly normal humans who are the result of the
fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) If fertilized ova
acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
person)?
Is it one person with two souls?
Or what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
for folks with *answers*.
Kermit
marks...@yahoo.com
I have tended to use the belief that the soul is conferred with the
first breath of the infant. That has biblical support in that God
breathed life into Adam and a few other references. That leaves it up
to God to decide how many souls are appropriate for such an
individual. I would suggest that if there is only one conciousness
then one soul would work.
This is not really testable so remains a philosophical issue.
Will in New Haven
The Mother gently takes that soul back to the place under the Forever
Trees, where he or she waits to be reborn. When the Hunter comes for
you, may the Horned God keep you long in the land, you will probably
meet a few who are waiting there. Be nice but you don't have to be
solemn.
--
Will in New Haven
Mitchell Coffey
Should I wear a tie? Oh, I do so wish to make the right impression!
Mitchell Coffey
Kalkidas
"Kermit" <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0b83fdd-d90e-4873...@w3g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
Bhagavad Gita 2.20,22-24
"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come
into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is
unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body
is slain.
"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly
accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones. The soul
can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened
by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and
insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present
everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."
raven1
Blessed Be!
Ernest Major
writes
answer.
--
alias Ernest Major
Kermit
> "Kermit" <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
OK. But when is it associated with human bodies? Would you say it was
all one soul anyway, so it doesn't matter how many faces there are at
any one time?
Ancient religious traditions (e.g. Christian, Hindu) did not know
about occasional merging of twins into one person, so this particular
issue was never addressed.
Kermit
Kermit
Yes. This is, I believe, the traditional Jewish belief, and consistent
with Old Testament remarks. It's never directly addressed. It removes
the "problem" with chimeras (chimerae?), although it would give one to
those anti-choice folks picketing family planning clinics.
Kermit
Kalkidas
news:e4bbf5b5-4b92-4ceb...@m21g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
The soul is the person. One soul, one person. It doesn't ever "merge"
into anything else. It is completely different from the body, or the
zygote, or the egg, or the sperm.
A human body, regardless of what kind of defect produced it, is a karmic
vehicle for one and only one soul (cases of possession notwithstanding).
Greg G.
Perhaps you didn't read the link to the description of what a chimera
is. It starts out as two zygotes that merge and grow as one
individual.
Some Christians insist that the soul enters when the egg cell is
fertilized, so there would be two souls at that point. When the merge,
it may be mostly a top-bottom merge or it maybe a left-right merge.
One part has different DNA than the other. Sometimes a left-right
merge will have different color eyes.
How does your religion consider this phenomenon. When did the soul
enter the body/bodies? Neither body is dead though the brain may be
from one but not the other or it consist of parts of both.
dali_70
> Is it one person with two souls?
> Or what?
Seeing as how the whole thing is a fairy tale, go ahead and make up
whatever answer suits your needs.
Steven L.
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:51858bb4-6dbc-49e9...@e21g2000vbl.googlegroups.com:
Was that in an episode of "Lost"??
-- Steven L.
Kermit
I was thinking about chimeras last night in another context and simply
thought this would be an interesting puzzle. No puzzle needs to
reflect real life. Speaking of the only world I know of, the material
world, these are cases of two zygotes merging into one. Interesting
but not puzzling as far as that goes.
Kermit
Greg G.
And don't forget about monozygotic twins.
Kermit
Duh!. I should have thought of that. Identical twins must have ...half
a soul each?
I don't remember its name, but there is a science fiction novel -
takes place in the near future; "minor" nerve damage like a severed
spinal cord can be healed. Two identical twins are in a helicopter
crash, and the trauma team can't find enough of either to salvage. But
a Frankenstein monster is possible. When he wakes up, he *feels like
one of the twins, and remembers being one of them, but even his brain
is largely his late brother's. If speaking of "him" as a single
survivor even makes sense, that is.
Kermit
Kermit
Will in New Haven
I've never seen an episode of "Lost," so I wouldn't know.
Ernest Major
<d7cf6b17-5acd-445e...@s4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> writes
--
alias Ernest Major
Vend
Abigail and Brittany Hensel are cojoined twins with four lungs, the
central ones partially fused.
How many souls do they have?
Greg G.
> In message
> <d7cf6b17-5acd-445e-9a43-d02b15eba...@s4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> writes
The Wikipedia stub says it was set in the near future from a 1980's
perspective, which would be in our recent past. I was thinking that my
boss would expect the work of two men from that guy but that seems to
be what the novel is about.
nando_r...@yahoo.com
questions, take a look at the decisions by which things come to be,
and in this case also, decisions by which they came to not be. So one
should ask, from which point was it decided that there would be a
human chimera? Was this already sure to happen when the ova was
fertilized, or not? And also ask, at which point did it become
possible that there would be those fertilized ova. So go back from
where it goes from impossible to happen to possibly happening, so to
origins. And so on. Now the soul of a thing is the way the thing ought
to be, so it is spiritual, and known subjectively. So you have the
decisons by which it came to be, and the spiritual quality of those
decisions is the soul. And then decisions happen during the lifetime,
and the spiritual quality of those decisions is also part of the soul.
The soul then goes on to final judgement by God, who created
everything.
So then make subjective judgements about the decisions which make the
things come to be, and where your judgement changes fundamentally,
then that's where the soul passed on, in your opinion.
So if it is in fact the case that it is a certainty that it would be a
chimera at the point where the ova are fertilized, then you get no
oppurtunity to judge there, because there aren't any decisions taking
place in the process then. So then you would say it is one soul. But
if it is not a certainty to begin with, then you have an oppurtunity
to relate to those decisions, and if your judgement is then
fundamentally different about the 2 fertilized ova, and the chimera,
then you would say that it is 2 souls, or even 3.
Greg G.
You are destroying freedom. It is the zygotes that have the freedom to
decide whether to conjoin. If one decides to join but the other
decides to not join, the latter develops as a being while the first
dies and is discarded.
>
> On 25 mei, 17:06, Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I hesitate to bring up religious matters here, even though most
> > objections to mainstream evolutionary science are religious. It is not
> > an anti-religious news group, but a science versus anti-science
> > newsgroup. (Or at least, anti-mainstream science). I am not religion
> > bashing here; I thought of a question and am genuinely curious about
> > the responses from religious people, especially those who have simpler
> > and more certain doctrines - the Fundamentalists.
>
> > Human chimeras are mostly normal humans who are the result of the
> > fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
> > with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) �If fertilized ova
> > acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
> > individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
>
> > Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
> > person)?
> > Is it one person with two souls?
> > Or what?
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
>
> > You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
> > for folks with *answers*.
>
> > Kermit- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Greg G.
> On May 25, 1:07�pm, "Greg G." <ggw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 4:00�pm, Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 25, 11:59�am, dali_70 <w_e_coyot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 25, 11:06�am, Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Is it one person with two souls?
> > > > > Or what?
>
> > > > Seeing as how the whole thing is a fairy tale, go ahead and make up
> > > > whatever answer suits your needs.
>
> > > I was thinking about chimeras last night in another context and simply
> > > thought this would be an interesting puzzle. No puzzle needs to
> > > reflect real life. Speaking of the only world I know of, the material
> > > world, these are cases of two zygotes merging into one. Interesting
> > > but not puzzling as far as that goes.
>
> > > Kermit
>
> > And don't forget about monozygotic twins.
>
> Duh!. I should have thought of that. Identical twins must have ...half
> a soul each?
It is conceivable (pun intended) that there could be two egg cells
conceived by different sperms and each spits into monozygotic twins
but half of each set forms a chimera with the other set. One fusion
forms a top-bottom orientation while the other forms a left-right
orientation. So you start with two souls, then you have four, then
back to two. Are the final two souls the same as the original two
souls?
bpuharic
wrote:
>
>The soul is the person. One soul, one person. It doesn't ever "merge"
>into anything else. It is completely different from the body, or the
>zygote, or the egg, or the sperm.
gee. for 3000 years you've said this. any idea when you're gonna prove
it?
>
>A human body, regardless of what kind of defect produced it, is a karmic
>vehicle for one and only one soul (cases of possession notwithstanding).
or is a carmel vehicle...made of melted sugar?
bpuharic
>"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly
>accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones. The soul
>can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened
>by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and
>insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present
>everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."
and if you close your eyes, click your heels together 3x you'll be
back in kansas
the wizard of oz has as much sense as hare krishna
>
Kermit
> In message
> <d7cf6b17-5acd-445e-9a43-d02b15eba...@s4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
That was it! As so frequently happens in science fiction, I enjoyed
the story but it was the problem of the central character that so
intrigued me.
Kermit
bpuharic
>The way to answer this is the same like with all creationist
>questions, take a look at the decisions by which things come to be,
>
>So if it is in fact the case that it is a certainty that it would be a
>chimera at the point where the ova are fertilized, then you get no
>oppurtunity to judge there, because there aren't any decisions taking
>place in the process then. So then you would say it is one soul. But
>if it is not a certainty to begin with, then you have an oppurtunity
>to relate to those decisions, and if your judgement is then
>fundamentally different about the 2 fertilized ova, and the chimera,
>then you would say that it is 2 souls, or even 3.
creattionists for thousands of years didn't even know there WERE human
eggs. creationism is useless
Kermit
Yikes. Virtual souls, popping in and out of existence? I'm afraid I
don't understand quantum theology, so I have no strong opinion on this
issue.
Kermit
Mark Isaak
> [...]
> Human chimeras are mostly normal humans who are the result of the
> fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
> with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) If fertilized ova
> acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
> individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
>
> Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
> person)?
> Is it one person with two souls?
> Or what?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
>
> You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
> for folks with *answers*.
There's no rule saying that a person can have only one soul. People in
other cultures sometimes have more than one.
If a person is lucky enough to be born with two souls, I wonder how much
he could get for the extra one on Ebay?
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume
Greg G.
> On Tue, 25 May 2010 08:06:10 -0700, Kermit wrote:
> > [...]
> > Human chimeras are mostly normal humans who are the result of the
> > fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
> > with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) �If fertilized ova
> > acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
> > individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
>
> > Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
> > person)?
> > Is it one person with two souls?
> > Or what?
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
>
> > You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
> > for folks with *answers*.
>
> There's no rule saying that a person can have only one soul. �People in
> other cultures sometimes have more than one.
>
> If a person is lucky enough to be born with two souls, I wonder how much
> he could get for the extra one on Ebay?
Probably a premium price if it is in mint condition.
raven1
>The way to answer this is the same like with all creationist
>questions, take a look at the decisions by which things come to be,
>and in this case also, decisions by which they came to not be. So one
>should ask, from which point was it decided that there would be a
>human chimera?
Decided by whom or what?
raven1
wrote:
>On Tue, 25 May 2010 08:06:10 -0700, Kermit wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> Human chimeras are mostly normal humans who are the result of the
>> fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
>> with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) If fertilized ova
>> acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
>> individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
>>
>> Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
>> person)?
>> Is it one person with two souls?
>> Or what?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
>>
>> You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
>> for folks with *answers*.
>
>There's no rule saying that a person can have only one soul. People in
>other cultures sometimes have more than one.
>
>If a person is lucky enough to be born with two souls, I wonder how much
>he could get for the extra one on Ebay?
People have tried auctioning them; Ebay removes the auctions as
against policy.
Free Lunch
wrote in talk.origins:
I hear that Old Scratch makes special deals.
Jim
> "Kermit" <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c0b83fdd-d90e-4873...@w3g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >I hesitate to bring up religious matters here, even though most
> > objections to mainstream evolutionary science are religious. It is not
> > an anti-religious news group, but a science versus anti-science
> > newsgroup. (Or at least, anti-mainstream science). I am not religion
> > bashing here; I thought of a question and am genuinely curious about
> > the responses from religious people, especially those who have simpler
> > and more certain doctrines - the Fundamentalists.
>
> > fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
> > with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) �If fertilized ova
> > acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
> > individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
>
> > Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
> > person)?
> > Is it one person with two souls?
> > Or what?
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
>
> > You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
> > for folks with *answers*.
>
>
> "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come
> into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is
> unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body
> is slain.
>
> accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones. The soul
> can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened
> by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and
> insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present
> everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."
So how many individual souls are there? And why are so many more of
them embodied now than there were during most millenia in the past?
Kalkidas
"Jim" <jimwi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0edcfb7-3c4b-4765...@j27g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Infinity.
And why are so many more of
> them embodied now than there were during most millenia in the past?
This isn't the only planet in the universe. And this isn't the only
universe. And most souls do not take material bodies, but populate the
kingdom of God in the spiritual world.
bpuharic
>
>
>
>This isn't the only planet in the universe. And this isn't the only
>universe. And most souls do not take material bodies, but populate the
>kingdom of God in the spiritual world.
>
this type of meaningless nonsense is one reason why creationism has
failed, for 3000 years, to explain any feature of nature
it's one reason creationism is useless
Dale
> about
> the responses
I believe the soul and the consciousness are one and the same, all
sentient life has a soul, all nonsentient like plants do not
I believe our consciousness and all of the material realm exist within
the consciousness of God, when we die our consciousness is reincarnated
into different lives based upon our wants and needs and the wants and
needs of others, including the wants and needs of God
--
http://www.dalekellyonline.com
Dale
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is
a man who chooses the bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has
the good imposed upon him?" Anthony Burgess
Kermit
> On Tue, 25 May 2010 08:06:10 -0700, Kermit wrote:
> > about
> > the responses
>
> I believe the soul and the consciousness are one and the same, all
> sentient life has a soul, all nonsentient like plants do not
Thank you. It sounds like you have no doctrinal problems with the
occasional biological accident of human chimeras.
Many of the Southern Baptists who raised me might, I think. They seem
to think there is one soul per person, and it is assigned at
conception. Their idea of "soul" is also pretty much the same as
consciousness, except it is always independent.
Some evangelicals, including many Southern Baptists, are however
comfortable with not knowing everything, and they would simply say
that it's a puzzle alright, but they don't know the answer.
Since my model of "All That Is" is simple the material universe, I
have no confusion over merged people.
>
> I believe our consciousness and all of the material realm exist within
> the consciousness of God, when we die our consciousness is reincarnated
> into different lives based upon our wants and needs and the wants and
> needs of others, including the wants and needs of God
>
> --http://www.dalekellyonline.com
> Dale
>
> "What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is
> a man who chooses the bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has
> the good imposed upon him?" Anthony Burgess
Kermit
John Stockwell
> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:e4bbf5b5-4b92-4ceb...@m21g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
> > all one soul anyway, so it doesn't matter how many faces there are at
> > any one time?
>
> > Ancient religious traditions (e.g. Christian, Hindu) did not know
> > about occasional merging of twins into one person, so this particular
> > issue was never addressed.
>
> The soul is the person. One soul, one person. It doesn't ever "merge"
> into anything else. It is completely different from the body, or the
> zygote, or the egg, or the sperm.
>
> vehicle for one and only one soul (cases of possession notwithstanding).
1) does an embryo have a soul?
2) if two embryos fuse, one soul or two? (Chimera)
3) if an embryo splits into two, one soul or two? (identical twins)
-John
nando_r...@yahoo.com
Louann Miller
a15a-4c6...@c7g2000vbc.googlegroups.com:
>> The Mother gently takes that soul back to the place under the Forever
>> Trees, where he or she waits to be reborn. When the Hunter comes for
>> you, may the Horned God keep you long in the land, you will probably
>> meet a few who are waiting there. Be nice but you don't have to be
>> solemn.
>
> Should I wear a tie? Oh, I do so wish to make the right impression!
Bring a bottle of mead as a hostess gift.
Kermit
Really? That's curious; I always thought that I had feelings. I like
kitty cats and gardens, for instance. I loathe men who attack women
because they are learning in school or walking alone or driving a car.
Those men are barbaric and despicable cowards.
Why do you think it is OK to just make stuff up? Do you really thing
that atheists are convinced when you say things about them they know
are untrue? I should remind you also that many folks who appreciate
science and even teach or do science are religious believers of ones
sort or another.
Kermit
Kermit
So what happens when the body becomes two?
Kermit
nando_r...@yahoo.com
play no part in it. You say all is material, then you are just
measureing, like a computer can do.
Perplexed in Peoria
>I hesitate to bring up religious matters here, even though most
> objections to mainstream evolutionary science are religious. It is not
> an anti-religious news group, but a science versus anti-science
> newsgroup. (Or at least, anti-mainstream science). I am not religion
> bashing here; I thought of a question and am genuinely curious about
> the responses from religious people, especially those who have simpler
> and more certain doctrines - the Fundamentalists.
>
> Human chimeras are mostly normal humans who are the result of the
> fusion of two fraternal twins in the womb. (Presumably this happens
> with identical twins also, but how could you tell?) If fertilized ova
> acquire souls immediately, what happens when two genetically distinct
> individuals develop and grow up to be one person, with one mind?
>
> Is one zygote officially "dead" (even though they both live in the
> person)?
> Is it one person with two souls?
> Or what?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29
>
> You liberal theists who simply say "beats me" are boring. I 'm looking
> for folks with *answers*.
The word you want if you wish to Google for your answers is "ensoulment".
I Googled "Catholic ensoulment chimera" to find out what the thinking is
in one religion which might have to worry about your question. Found
this blog entry dealing with a closely related problem. (Monozygous
twins - when exactly does the second soul appear?)
http://blog.purepistos.net/index.php/2007/11/18/the-problem-of-the-ensoulment-of-identical-twins/
Actually, the "real answer" is that it is up to God how it works. Ensoulment
is a spiritual event, not a physical one. That means that even if God just
set the physical universe running and now lets it run 'unattended', He still
has to directly intervene in each and every ensoulment that happens. And
since he is omniscient (including clairvoyance), He can do it right even
before the zygote fissions to make twins or the blastomas fuse to make
a chimera.