Re: How does an atheist practice his faithlessness?
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
[snips]
> I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
> tradition and persecute Jews.
Mr. Kahana and another
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
Protestants?
Churches resisted Hitler
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128561942.412167.145530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
theological disputes among German Protestants; Nazi concentration camps
for Catholics and Protestants
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.176548.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
> From where did he get this hatred of
> jews but from Christian teachings forced on him by devout Roman
> Catholic Parents?
Hitler's father wasn't a Catholic.
Hitler's mother was a "devout Roman Catholic."
Hitler attended a Catholic school.
Compare:
Hitler encounters the T0E as a child: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118403178.860854.170600%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Stalin encounters the T0E in seminary: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118511187.489582.241590%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
"From where did he [Hitler] get this hatred of jews"
Antisemitism was prevalent in educated circles in the early years of
the 1900s. The wildly popular 1899 _Foundations of the Nineteenth
Century_ by Houston Stewart Chamberlain contained antisemitism and much
opposition to conservative Jews' theology and moral values. Also, Karl
Marx and numerous other socialists were strongly antisemitic throughout
the 1800s.
Ref:
Prager, Dennis and Joseph Telushkin. 1983. _Why the Jews?: The
Reason for Antisemitism_ (NY: Simon & Schuster), 238pp., 159-161,
137-142.
I discussed other material in Prager's book in
secular leftist individuals having Jewish ancestors
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1129867015.194883.157910%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
I have a copy of
Marx, Karl. 1959. _A World without Jews_, translated from the
original
German, with an introduction and an epilogue by Dagobert D. Runes,
fourth, enlarged edition (New York: Philosophical Library), 83pp.
Speaking of socialists:
who is a "socialist"?; some atheism adherents' development and use of
brutal terror tactics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128703737.434501.234400%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> RC hatred of jews was still very strong in the
> first quarter of the 20th C. The dictator of one German ally in
> eastern Europe was also a Roman catholic priest and he pro-actively
> assisted the holocaust.
What's the name of this "dictator of one German ally in eastern
Europe," and of which country was he dictator?
ianpa...@gmail.com
first. In 1918 the Germans were facing a communist revolt. Ludendorff
signed the armistice on November 11th because he had no real
alterntaive. The German armies themselves however still stood on
conquered territory.
Hitler and Ludendorf formed the legend of the stab in the back
(Hinterrucks eingestossen) the Armies of the Fatherland were defeated
by a consiracy of the Jews. Total nonsense, but no more nonsense than
9/11 was done by the Pentagon, or the Moon landings were faked.
Hitler as an unknown with no means. Ludendorf was an eminent general
who backed Hitler in military and aristocratic circles. Meanwhile
industrialists like Professor Winniker of Hoechst saw advantages in a
managed arms cenered economy and provided Hitler with funds.
As the Nazis had got to power on "Hinterrucks eingestossen" it was
inevitable that the Nazi party would turn on the Jews. True it was the
Germans who had revolted in 1918 but that was not part of the script.
Christianity had very little to do with it. Hitler was first and
foremost the man who would reverse 1918 and get rid of the traitors in
her midst.
Christopher A. Lee
>Les Hellawell wrote:
>
>[snips]
>
>> I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
>> tradition and persecute Jews.
>
>Mr. Kahana and another
>http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
>Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
>Protestants?
The dishonest Christian equates "Some Christians" with "all
Christians".
Lt. Kizhe Catson
> Les Hellawell wrote:
>
> [snips]
>
>
>>I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
>>tradition and persecute Jews.
>
>
> Mr. Kahana and another
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
> Protestants?
Given that there's a long history of them persecuting each other....oh
man, this is too easy.
-- Kizhe
[snip the usual puffery]
Denis Loubet
supporting evidence.
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
John Harshman
> Les Hellawell wrote:
>
> [snips]
>
>
>>I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
>>tradition and persecute Jews.
>
>
> Mr. Kahana and another
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
> Protestants?
You bet he did. He followed Protestant tradition in persecuting
Catholics (think of England before and after Mary Tudor), and Catholic
and Protestant tradition in persecuting Protestants (think of St.
Bartholemew's Day and Calvin's Swiss). And for both of them, have you
ever heard of the Thirty Years War?
You have to start thinking before you write (what little you do write,
as opposed to endlessly recycled quote mines). If you do, you will be
able to avoid obvious straight lines like this one.
Les Hellawell
Sorry If I am repeating this as I am not sure if my previous reply got
sent.
The puppet state was Slovakia
The President of Slovakia was the Quisling Monseignor Joseph Tiso
Actually he was probably more dictated to than dictated.
My source was "The History Of World War II edited by Barry Pitt
and published by Purnell in 1968.
I seem to remember reading something about Heydrich commenting
on his fanatic hatred of Jews and willing cooperation but cannot
remember know where I saw it.
Accodring to one Google hit searching on {"Joseph Tiso" holocaust}
he was an ordained priest still in Holy Orders at the time
You might also check the RC involvement in the holocaust in the
Baltic States.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
AC
> Les Hellawell wrote:
>
> [snips]
>
>> I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
>> tradition and persecute Jews.
>
> Mr. Kahana and another
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
> Protestants?
Catholics and Protestants persecuted each other for centuries, and despite
your attempt to make it sound as if some generally large groups of Catholics
and Protestants were being persecuted, that simply is not true.
Are you that scared that Christians actually supported Hitler and murdered
Jews, David? Does it bother you that belief in God does not mean that
people can't be vile and repugnant, that all the claims of morality in the
world doesn't mean people won't behave in an immoral fashion?
I mean, after all, your whole propaganda campaign here demonstrates how
immoral you are. Do you think your god will like or dislike your conduct on
talk.origins, David?
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
david ford
> On 26 Oct 2005 12:27:41 -0700,
> dfo...@gl.umbc.edu <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
> > Les Hellawell wrote:
> >
> > [snips]
> >
> >> I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
> >> tradition and persecute Jews.
> >
> > Mr. Kahana and another
> > http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> >
> > Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
> > Protestants?
>
> Catholics and Protestants persecuted each other for centuries,
What's the most egregious/ horrific instance of "Catholics and
Protestants persecut[ing] each other"?
> and despite
> your attempt to make it sound as if some generally large groups of Catholics
> and Protestants were being persecuted, that simply is not true.
What exactly did I say?
January 1938
Klemperer, Victor. 1998. _I Will Bear Witness: A Diary of the Nazi
Years: 1933-1941_, translated by Martin Chalmers (NY: Random House),
519pp. This was first published in Germany in 1995. About the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375753788/qid=1130514028/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
On 249, from the entry for 31 January 1938:
....the sudden exclusion of non-Aryan doctors from the
private insurance schemes. Apart from that in recent
weeks anti-Semitism has once again been very much in
the foreground (it rotates: now the Jews, now the
Catholics, now the Protestant ministers).
Nazi concentration camps for Catholics and Protestants
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.176548.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
Churches resisted Hitler
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128561942.412167.145530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> Are you that scared that Christians actually supported Hitler and murdered
> Jews, David?
Are you scared that social Darwinist physicians actually supported
Hitler and murdered Jews, Aaron?
Proctor, Robert N. 1988. _Racial Hygiene: Medicine under the Nazis_
(Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press), 414pp. On 6:
The published record of the German medical profession
makes it clear that many intellectuals cooperated fully in
Nazi racial programs, and that many of the social and
intellectual foundations for these programs were laid long
before the rise of Hitler to power. What I want to argue in
addition to this, however (and here I shall be drawing
upon a growing body of recent German scholarship on
this question) is that biomedical scientists played an
active, even leading role in the initiation, administration,
and execution of Nazi racial programs.
2004 Richard Weikart: "physicians... were committed to a racist
eugenics ideology that the Nazis favored"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407120310.7d3f3929%40posting.google.com
> Does it bother you that belief in God does not mean that
> people can't be vile and repugnant, that all the claims of morality in the
> world doesn't mean people won't behave in an immoral fashion?
Does it bother you that adoption of atheism doesn't mean that atheists
can't be vile and repugnant?
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Wolfe, Alan. Post date 04.04.04, Issue date 04.12.04. "The Strange
Career of Atheism in America" _The New Republic_. Wolfe is a
contributing editor at TNR. At
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=PV5okokB29MYOvW1rabA4W==
A non-believer myself.... many liberals supported
her [O'Hair] during her heyday in the 1960s and
1970s.... postwar Americans had good reason to fear
Murray [i.e. O'Hair]. She was dictatorial,
irresponsible, racist, overbearing, corrupt, anti-
Semitic, homophobic, anti-Catholic, and at times
criminal. .... Murray was finally a product of her
times; the decade that gave us the syrupy "Under
God" in the Pledge of Allegiance also gave us this
crudely embarrassing atheist. ....
If [Elizabeth Cady] Stanton's agnosticism has not
been slighted by later generations, neither has her
racism. "Think of Patrick and Sambo ... and Yung
Tung," Stanton proclaimed in 1869 to the National
Woman's Suffrage Association, "who do not know
the difference between a monarchy and a republic,
who can not read the Declaration of Independence or
Webster's spelling book, making laws for Lucretia
Mott, Ernestine L. Rose, and Anna E. Dickinson." It
is to Jacoby's credit that she cites these words, but
she never pauses to reflect on them. Had she done
so, it might have occurred to her that atheism and
bigotry may have a more intimate relationship than
she imagines. We ought never to forget that the
twentieth century's greatest American skeptic, H.L.
Mencken, was an ugly anti-Semite. Refusing to
believe in God does not by itself make you right-
thinking. .... Hugo Black, a hero to strict
separationists, joined the Ku Klux Klan in his youth
as much for its hostility to Catholics as for its
racism....
[Wolfe in _The New Republic_]"She [O'Hair] was dictatorial,
irresponsible, racist, overbearing, corrupt, anti-Semitic, homophobic,
anti-Catholic, and at times criminal. .... this crudely embarrassing
atheist [i.e. O'Hair]"
[O'Hair to her father during an all-too-common argument, after a
policeman noticed William distributing communist literature at O'Hair's
instruction]"Look who's talking about politics, you Nazi. If you
weren't blind, you'd see how the Jews in big business are running this
country into the ground. The poor working man hasn't got a chance in
our system."
Presented in
Murray, William J. 1992. _My Life without God_ (Oregon: Harvest House
Publishers), 336pp., 24. This is a revised and expanded edition of an
earlier edition of the book.
McGrath mangled the following quotation-- I got the bracketed material
directly from the second i.e. 1992 edition of William's book, page 56:
[O'Hair to her son William, after slapping him hard in the
face]"[Listen, kid,] The United States of America is nothing more than
a
fascist slave labor camp run by a handful of Jew bankers in New York
[City]. They trick you into believing you're free with those phony
rigged elections.... [Well,] If they'll keep us from going to Russia
where there is some freedom, we'll just have to change America. I'll
make sure you never say another prayer in that school[!]."
Cited in
McGrath, Alister. 2004. _The Twilight of Atheism:
The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World_
(USA: Doubleday), 306pp., 244.
> I mean, after all, your whole propaganda campaign here demonstrates how
> immoral you are. Do you think your god will like or dislike your conduct on
> talk.origins, David?
>
> <snip>
If there is no Judeo-Christian God, no God of Judaism, no God of Islam,
no God of theism-- as you, Aaron, believe is the case-- then there is
no God of theism to "like or dislike" _anyone's_ "conduct."
"demonstrates how immoral you [df] are"
An atheism-adherent lacks a firm basis/ grounds for calling _anyone_ or
_any_ action "immoral."
Including Hitler and the Holocaust.
1979 Schaeffer & Koop on the a-moral implications of atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504061225.4c675814%40posting.google.com
Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian a-moral climate
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.069039.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
the atheism-adherent Hitler's actions are quite understandable
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127506418.014874.230840%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
Nordau, Max. 1922. _Morals and the Evolution of Man_ [trans. of
_Biologie und Ethik_] (London), 73. Cited in Weikart, Richard. 2004.
_From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in
Germany_ (USA: Palgrave Macmillan), 312pp., 30. About Weikart's
book:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
Good and bad.... derive not only their existence but their
measure and their significance from the views of the
community. They are therefore not absolute but variable;
they are not an immutable standard amid the ever-changing
conditions of humanity, a rule by which the value of the
actions and aims of mortals are indisputably determined, but
are subject to the laws of evolution in society and therefore
in a constant state of flux. At different times and in different
places they present the most varied aspects. What is virtue
here and now may have been vice formerly and at another
spot, and _vice versa_.
By the way, Nordau was a secularist having Jewish ancestors.
Also, the atheism-adherent and Princeton bioethicist Peter Singer has
Jewish ancestors. Atheism-adherent Singer has no problem with
infanticide, bestiality, or killing severely-mentally-disabled
individuals.
Moreover, Karl Marx was an antisemitic atheism-adherent who had Jewish
ancestors.
In addition, Hitler was an antisemitic atheism-adherent who thought he
had Jewish ancestors.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128621261.103530.184110%40o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129143372.689763.127020%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128308336.450775.177530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Marx; 1800s and 1900s secular leftist individuals having Jewish
ancestors
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1129867015.194883.157910%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
some atheism adherents' development and use of brutal terror tactics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128703737.434501.234400%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Re: secularists in the 1800s and 1900s, do you think their:
a) rejection of the existence of the God
of Judaism and the Judeo-Christian
God, and
b) rejection of the moral commandments
allegedly given to the Hebrew Moses
by the God of Judaism,
did, or didn't, contribute to the coming of the Holocaust in the 1900s?
Do you think the God of Judaism exists?
Do you think the Jewish Old Testament is a pack of lies?
Aaron, do you think there exists a God of Judaism that frequently
allows severe punishment of His chosen people, the Jews/ the
descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, when those descendants cease
to follow the God of Judaism, as the Jewish Old Testament relates
occurred in numerous allegedly-historical instances?
Freedman, David Noel. 2000. _The Nine Commandments: Uncovering the
Hidden Pattern of Crime and Punishment in the Hebrew Bible_ (NY:
Doubleday), 217pp. About the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499868/qid=1130519881/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books
Do you think
a) rejection of the existence of the God
of Judaism, and
b) rejection of the moral code allegedly
given to the Hebrew Moses by the God
of Judaism,
by secularist descendants of Jews during the 1800s and 1900s did, or
didn't, contribute to the coming of the Holocaust?
AC
> AC wrote:
>> On 26 Oct 2005 12:27:41 -0700,
>> dfo...@gl.umbc.edu <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
>> > Les Hellawell wrote:
>> >
>> > [snips]
>> >
>> >> I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
>> >> tradition and persecute Jews.
>> >
>> > Mr. Kahana and another
>> > http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>> >
>> > Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
>> > Protestants?
>>
>> Catholics and Protestants persecuted each other for centuries,
>
> What's the most egregious/ horrific instance of "Catholics and
> Protestants persecut[ing] each other"?
Why, David, there are so many. There was a general European war over it,
with all the niceties that go along with such things.
>
>> and despite
>> your attempt to make it sound as if some generally large groups of Catholics
>> and Protestants were being persecuted, that simply is not true.
>
> What exactly did I say?
>
> January 1938
> Klemperer, Victor. 1998. _I Will Bear Witness: A Diary of the Nazi
> Years: 1933-1941_, translated by Martin Chalmers (NY: Random House),
> 519pp. This was first published in Germany in 1995. About the book:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375753788/qid=1130514028/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> On 249, from the entry for 31 January 1938:
> ....the sudden exclusion of non-Aryan doctors from the
> private insurance schemes. Apart from that in recent
> weeks anti-Semitism has once again been very much in
> the foreground (it rotates: now the Jews, now the
> Catholics, now the Protestant ministers).
>
> Nazi concentration camps for Catholics and Protestants
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.176548.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
> Churches resisted Hitler
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128561942.412167.145530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
>> Are you that scared that Christians actually supported Hitler and murdered
>> Jews, David?
>
> Are you scared that social Darwinist physicians actually supported
> Hitler and murdered Jews, Aaron?
Possibly some did. It does not reflect on the theory, any more than bombing
Hiroshima and Nagasaki somehow calls nuclear physics into question.
>
> Proctor, Robert N. 1988. _Racial Hygiene: Medicine under the Nazis_
> (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press), 414pp. On 6:
> The published record of the German medical profession
> makes it clear that many intellectuals cooperated fully in
> Nazi racial programs, and that many of the social and
> intellectual foundations for these programs were laid long
> before the rise of Hitler to power. What I want to argue in
> addition to this, however (and here I shall be drawing
> upon a growing body of recent German scholarship on
> this question) is that biomedical scientists played an
> active, even leading role in the initiation, administration,
> and execution of Nazi racial programs.
> 2004 Richard Weikart: "physicians... were committed to a racist
> eugenics ideology that the Nazis favored"
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407120310.7d3f3929%40posting.google.com
So is the medical profession now to be tossed, David?
>
>> Does it bother you that belief in God does not mean that
>> people can't be vile and repugnant, that all the claims of morality in the
>> world doesn't mean people won't behave in an immoral fashion?
>
> Does it bother you that adoption of atheism doesn't mean that atheists
> can't be vile and repugnant?
Atheism can cover so many different types of people that it's as absurd to
try to attach any particular moral beliefs to them as to people who like
football.
That, David, is a lie. Again you behave immorally and demonstrate that your
religious beliefs cannot guard you from this sort of behavior.
I haven't read any of Singer's work.
>
> Moreover, Karl Marx was an antisemitic atheism-adherent who had Jewish
> ancestors.
Martin Luther was a raving anti-Semite.
>
> In addition, Hitler was an antisemitic atheism-adherent who thought he
> had Jewish ancestors.
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128621261.103530.184110%40o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129143372.689763.127020%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128308336.450775.177530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Point to verified words by HItler where he advocates atheism. Open
challenge. No self-referential links, no historically questionable
statements.
>
> Marx; 1800s and 1900s secular leftist individuals having Jewish
> ancestors
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1129867015.194883.157910%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> some atheism adherents' development and use of brutal terror tactics
> http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128703737.434501.234400%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> Re: secularists in the 1800s and 1900s, do you think their:
> a) rejection of the existence of the God
> of Judaism and the Judeo-Christian
> God, and
> b) rejection of the moral commandments
> allegedly given to the Hebrew Moses
> by the God of Judaism,
> did, or didn't, contribute to the coming of the Holocaust in the 1900s?
>
> Do you think the God of Judaism exists?
No.
>
> Do you think the Jewish Old Testament is a pack of lies?
I think calling it lies is like calling Greek mythology lies. They are
myths.
>
> Aaron, do you think there exists a God of Judaism that frequently
> allows severe punishment of His chosen people, the Jews/ the
> descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, when those descendants cease
> to follow the God of Judaism, as the Jewish Old Testament relates
> occurred in numerous allegedly-historical instances?
No, David, I don't htink there is a god of any kind.
>
> Freedman, David Noel. 2000. _The Nine Commandments: Uncovering the
> Hidden Pattern of Crime and Punishment in the Hebrew Bible_ (NY:
> Doubleday), 217pp. About the book:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499868/qid=1130519881/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books
>
> Do you think
> a) rejection of the existence of the God
> of Judaism, and
> b) rejection of the moral code allegedly
> given to the Hebrew Moses by the God
> of Judaism,
> by secularist descendants of Jews during the 1800s and 1900s did, or
> didn't, contribute to the coming of the Holocaust?
I think, David, that you are an immoral liar who does his best to avoid the
cold hard truth that believers in God hated Jews for centuries, and that the
Holocaust was an extreme form of the vileness at the heart of Christendom.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
david ford
Many of us used to think of ourselves as Democrats-- we don't any
longer.
==
They ["our Christian friends"] are offended by the local Reform rabbi
heading the annual campaign to remove nativity scenes from the city
hall lawn.
==
Out of 35 or so constituent organizations listed on the letterhead of
the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, fully one-third are
Jewish. When it comes to special rights for homosexuals, opposed by a
majority of Americans, the same story is seen. Both nationally and in
every state in which the issue has surfaced, Jewish organizations have
vocally and visibly allied themselves with the militant homosexual
agenda.
==
Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular Fundamentalism are
drilling holes under their seats in the boat of our culture. Those
Jews who dissent need to make their voices heard, if for no other
reason than to reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
not the drillers.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Marx; 1800s and 1900s secular leftist individuals having Jewish
ancestors
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1129867015.194883.157910%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
"Why Jews Must Vote for President Bush"
Joan Swirsky, 28 Oct. 2004, at
http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/10/28/02937.shtml
....it is no wonder that they [American Jews] embraced
the political policies of Democrats, who promised to
protect the underdogs and victims of society.
But history has shown that many of their icons had feet
of clay.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt....
Harry Truman....
Jimmy Carter....
Klinghoffer's "Worshipers At The Secular Altar"
http://www.mylifeafter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33302&sid=37dac5255c9255476199764b590e8d0b
Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian a-moral climate
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.069039.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
the atheism-adherent Hitler's actions are quite understandable
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127506418.014874.230840%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
1979 Schaeffer & Koop on the a-moral implications of atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504061225.4c675814%40posting.google.com
Hitler was an adherent of atheism and engaged in homosexual activity
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129143372.689763.127020%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128308336.450775.177530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Nordau, Max. 1922. _Morals and the Evolution of Man_ [trans. of
_Biologie und Ethik_] (London), 73. Cited in Weikart, Richard. 2004.
_From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in
Germany_ (USA: Palgrave Macmillan), 312pp., 30. About Weikart's
book:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
Good and bad.... derive not only their existence but their
measure and their significance from the views of the
community. They are therefore not absolute but variable;
they are not an immutable standard amid the ever-changing
conditions of humanity, a rule by which the value of the
actions and aims of mortals are indisputably determined, but
are subject to the laws of evolution in society and therefore
in a constant state of flux. At different times and in different
places they present the most varied aspects. What is virtue
here and now may have been vice formerly and at another
spot, and _vice versa_.
Nordau was a secularist having Jewish ancestors.
Do you think there exists a God of Judaism that frequently
allows severe punishment of His chosen people, the Jews/ the
descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, when those descendants cease
to follow the God of Judaism, as the Jewish Old Testament relates
occurred in numerous allegedly-historical instances?
Freedman, David Noel. 2000. _The Nine Commandments: Uncovering the
Hidden Pattern of Crime and Punishment in the Hebrew Bible_ (NY:
Doubleday), 217pp. About the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499868/qid=1130519881/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books
Do you think
a) rejection of the existence of the God
of Judaism, and
b) rejection of the moral code allegedly
given to the Hebrew Moses by the God
of Judaism,
by secularist descendants of Jews during the 1800s and 1900s did, or
didn't, contribute to the coming of the Holocaust?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Fuller Text
Rabbi Daniel Lapin writes a letter to American Jews
Embrace the values of Judaism instead of those of Secular
Fundamentalism by encouraging your senator to confirm Judge Samuel
Alito
My Friends,
During the 19th century Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch wrote, "The more
enlightenment you gain in the knowledge of history, the clearer will be
your insight into the Torah." Since the theater of world history
follows the screenplay of Torah, history can provide guidance to
understanding God's plans.
For instance, the holocaust did not start in Poland, where most Jews
lived openly as religious Jews. Instead it erupted in Germany, the
country whose Jews were most invisible and assimilated. This valuable
lesson validates ancient Jewish wisdom's explanation of the Bible verse
"The voice is Jacob's voice but the hands are the hands of Esau"
(Genesis 27:22). The traditional meaning has an aging Isaac warning
his descendants. When the voice of Jacob is stilled, the hands of Esau
are strengthened.
When traditional Judaism is silenced by our abandonment of faith,
anti-Semitism becomes strong. Contemporary American politics suggests
that we Jews have failed to learn that our embrace of secular
liberalism as our new religion could, in the words of the surgeon
general, be harmful to our health.
Recently more and more Americans are asking themselves whether they
really are better off today than they were in 1955. They are
recognizing that life has become more squalid, expensive and dangerous.
They correctly attribute these distressing changes to 50 years of
liberal excess.
Most of us can recall that an American family used to enjoy an enviable
middle class lifestyle on the earnings of one worker. We think back
nostalgically to a time when city parks were safe for all and when
schools were not only safe but actually taught skills. We remember a
time when movies did not routinely include scenes and expressions that
would have made an old-time convict blush. We feel that abortion
should not be treated like wart removal and that homosexuals should not
be accorded special rights. We do not think that anybody should claim
special rights and we oppose affirmative action. Many of us used to
think of ourselves as Democrats-- we don't any longer.
At least 78% of Americas believe that the Bible is the word of God.
They take marriage seriously and work hard at raising their children.
They are white and black Americans. They are men and women and they
are found in every profession and occupation. More and more of them
are turning back to religious orthodoxy by joining evangelical
denominations or mainstream Catholic churches. Many Jews among them
are also returning to traditional expressions of faith.
Most Jews are unaware that most serious Christians in this country
really do believe that God has been good to America because America has
been good to her Jews. Better than most Jews, Christians know the
verse "And I will bless them that bless you and those who curse you I
will curse" (Genesis XII 3). They are financial and political
supporters of the State of Israel. Yes, they do so for religious
reasons, but friends whose friendship is based on principle rather than
political expediency should be valued not vilified.
Not every criticism of Jews constitutes anti-Semitism. It is certainly
not anti-Semitic when our Christian friends ask legitimate questions.
For instance, they observe that for the most part Jews do not send
their children to serve in today's volunteer military. Why, they ask,
is it so important to Jews in New York that Christian boys in the army
should serve alongside homosexuals? They are offended by the local
Reform rabbi heading the annual campaign to remove nativity scenes from
the city hall lawn. They are confused when another group of Jews
erects a large Chanukah menorah on the very same lawn. They are hurt
when they are accused of anti-Semitism while defending their beliefs
over abortion.
Sadly as a community we Jews are not perceived as remaining neutral on
issues of moral importance to the Christian community. We are
perceived as being heavily involved-- but on the wrong side.
Out of 35 or so constituent organizations listed on the letterhead of
the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, fully one-third are
Jewish. When it comes to special rights for homosexuals, opposed by a
majority of Americans, the same story is seen. Both nationally and in
every state in which the issue has surfaced, Jewish organizations have
vocally and visibly allied themselves with the militant homosexual
agenda.
I believe that as the country moves back toward conservative and
traditional cultural values, it is important to have Jewish
organizations like Toward Tradition speaking nationally for what is
good, right, decent and Godly. Sadly one constantly hears from Jewish
organizations that sound as if they are advocating the opposite.
Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular Fundamentalism are
drilling holes under their seats in the boat of our culture. Those
Jews who dissent need to make their voices heard, if for no other
reason than to reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
not the drillers.
In the final analysis, we have to ask ourselves what our security in
America depends upon? Our security ultimately depends upon the God of
Israel and we have to remain faithful to His truths. The amazing thing
is that we live in a country where a greater percentage of citizens
believe in those truths than in any other industrialized nation in the
world. It surely cannot be good for us that we Jews continue to be
seen as the minority most hostile to those truths.
As Americans view society's breakdown with increasing horror, will they
see America's Jews as part of the solution or, God forbid, as part of
the problem? The answer, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch would say, is up
to us. The Senate confirmation hearings of Judge Samuel Alito is the
opportunity to show we understand history.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin, an Orthodox Rabbi in Seattle,
Washington, is author of _Thou Shall Prosper_, _America's Real War_ and
_Buried Treasure_, is President of Toward Tradition and hosts his own
television and radio shows.
Toward Tradition is America's leading bridge-builder between Jewish and
Christian communities; spanning the divide between Christians and Jews
by sculpting ancient solutions to modern problems in areas of family,
faith, and fortune. Visit us on the web at:
http://www.towardtradition.org
Bob
>extracts of Rabbi Daniel Lapin:
>
>Many of us used to think of ourselves as Democrats-- we don't any
>longer.
>==
>They ["our Christian friends"] are offended by the local Reform rabbi
>heading the annual campaign to remove nativity scenes from the city
>hall lawn.
>==
>Out of 35 or so constituent organizations listed on the letterhead of
>the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, fully one-third are
>Jewish. When it comes to special rights for homosexuals, opposed by a
>majority of Americans, the same story is seen. Both nationally and in
>every state in which the issue has surfaced, Jewish organizations have
>vocally and visibly allied themselves with the militant homosexual
>agenda.
>==
>Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular Fundamentalism are
>drilling holes under their seats in the boat of our culture. Those
>Jews who dissent need to make their voices heard, if for no other
>reason than to reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
>not the drillers.
ah...and the old threat rears its ugly head. scalia just recently was
telling jews how fortunate they were to live in a country where xtians
took their religion seriously....the xtians will protect them, you
see.
of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
and this author is now telling us how the jews are undermining xtian
civilization.
does it ever stop?
>
>
>Most Jews are unaware that most serious Christians in this country
>really do believe that God has been good to America because America has
>been good to her Jews.
gee...aint this nice for the jews. of course, if things go wrong in
america, the jews will take the blame. they always have.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> ah...and the old threat rears its ugly head. scalia just recently was
> telling jews how fortunate they were to live in a country where xtians
> took their religion seriously....the xtians will protect them, you
> see.
Why does this make me very nervous? If I have to depend on the good will
of goyim to be safe I am indeed in deep ka ka.
>
> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
>
> and this author is now telling us how the jews are undermining xtian
> civilization.
>
> does it ever stop?
Not until the coming of the Moisheach. Ad yavoh ha moisheach.
>
>
>>
>>Most Jews are unaware that most serious Christians in this country
>>really do believe that God has been good to America because America has
>>been good to her Jews.
>
>
> gee...aint this nice for the jews. of course, if things go wrong in
> america, the jews will take the blame. they always have.
We are a Chosen People, you see. Chosen to take the blame. If ants spoil
the picnic it is the fault of the Jews.
Bob Kolker
David Ewan Kahana
> Les Hellawell wrote:
>
> [snips]
>
> > I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
> > tradition and persecute Jews.
>
> Mr. Kahana and another
>
My remarks concerning the new catechism of the Church, published only
very recently, are NOT to be interpreted as an argument that there
was no Christian tradition of anti-semitism. There most emphatically
was, and I argued for it in the post from which Mr. Ford excerpted
these brief paragraphs.
>http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
> Protestants?
>
To the limited extent that Hitler persecuted Catholics
and Protestants at all, he followed well-established Christian
tradition. See `Reformation' and `Counter-reformation.'
[snip]
> > RC hatred of jews was still very strong in the
> > first quarter of the 20th C. The dictator of one German ally in
> > eastern Europe was also a Roman catholic priest and he pro-actively
> > assisted the holocaust.
>
> What's the name of this "dictator of one German ally in eastern
> Europe," and of which country was he dictator?
Probably meant above was: Father Josef Tiso, Slovakia,
and his fascist Ludak party.
Slovakian Jews numbered about 90,000 at the time of the
census in late 1938, after Czechoslovakia ceased to exist,
and parts of it were given away to Hungary.
The Slovak government passed anti-Jewish codes
completely equivalent to the Nuremberg laws. The Slovak
government enthusiastically agreed to deport its Jews
to Germany, famously, Vojtech Tuka, the prime minister,
following the Wannsee meeting, negotiated an agreement
by which Slovakia would pay the Germans 500 Reichsmark
for every Jew they took. Himmler proposed making
Slovakia free of Jews and the government happily
agreed. The Jews were deported starting in March, 1942,
and by October, at least 59,000 had been removed. A
large number ended in Auschwitz, Majdanek and Sobibor.
Some ended in Treblinka.
For additional Catholic dicators in Eastern Europe see:
Ante Pavelic, Croatia; Miklos Horthy, Hungary; Emil Hacha,
Bohemia-Moravia.
There was a bona fide surfeit of cheerful Catholic fascists
in Europe, east and west, at the time of WWII.
David
[snip]
David Ewan Kahana
> On 2 Nov 2005 13:27:21 -0800, "david ford" <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
>
> >extracts of Rabbi Daniel Lapin:
> >
[snip]
>
> ah...and the old threat rears its ugly head. scalia just recently was
> telling jews how fortunate they were to live in a country where xtians
> took their religion seriously....the xtians will protect them, you
> see.
>
> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
>
> and this author is now telling us how the jews are undermining xtian
> civilization.
>
> does it ever stop?
>
No it never stops. As Bob Kolker said, not till Moshiach
comes. This Rabbi Lapin is one sick puppy. For more in the
same vein, see:
http://www.towardtradition.org/our_worst_enemy.htm
Naturally, I am not suggesting that Americans of Jewish
descent should conceal their ethnic identity. I am
urging those for whom Judaism is a link to the eternal
values of Sinai, to wake up and realize how other
Americans increasingly perceive us. Furthermore we ought
to recognize that this unwholesome perception of Jews is
theresult of anti-Semitism perpetrated by Jews rather than
by non-Jews.
[...]
It does not excuse Hitler or his Nazi thugs for us to
acknowledge that this maniacal, master propagandist focused
on a reality that resonated with the educated, and cultured
Germans of his day. Not once in Mein Kampf did that monster
charge Jews with being complicit in the killing of Christ
two thousand years earlier. He knew that long-ago event,
shrouded in mystery and theological profundity, would never
goad enlightened people to murder. Instead, he drew
attention to the obvious and inescapable; that which every
German knew to be true.
The sad fact is that through Jewish actors, playwrights, and
producers, the Berlin stage of Weimar Germany linked Jews
and deviant sexuality in all its sordid manifestations just
as surely as Broadway does today. Much of the filth in
American entertainment today parallels that of Germany
between the wars.
In Rabbi Lapin's view it is the Howard Sterns, the Barbara
Streisands, the Woody Allens and the Lenny Bruces of
history, who, by their crass attempts at humour, have
brought about the pogroms.
The `ethnic Jews' should be careful and keep their mouths
shut, lest they wake up the big bad goyim, the true
defenders of Judaism in America, lest they turn against the
`real Jews'.
Of course, Rabbi Lapin has forgotten that Hitler found Jews
who supposedly followed the Sinaitic laws to be just as
deserving of a dose of Zyklon B as the ethnic Jews.
> >
> >
> >Most Jews are unaware that most serious Christians in this country
> >really do believe that God has been good to America because America has
> >been good to her Jews.
>
> gee...aint this nice for the jews. of course, if things go wrong in
> america, the jews will take the blame. they always have.
>
>
Right on the money. For my part I'm not depending on the
serious Christians to save the Jews this time around, if
that's what is coming.
David
Billy Wardlow
Jews this time."? The Jews rejected their King because He didn't set up
an earthly physical Kingdom,like they expected, but a Spritual one.(The
Church.) As long as any Jew, ethnic or not, continue reject
this fact,and obey not the Gospel, there is no safety for them. nor the
Goyim. "Gentile" non jew.
David Ewan Kahana
Thanks so much, Billy Wardlow, for providing your own very useful
estimate of the likely behaviour of `serious Christians,' should
some of their number indeed choose to initiate yet another in a
very long line of pogroms that Christian societies have periodically
enjoyed holding against their brothers and sisters, the Jews, who they
sometimes suffered to live among them.
It was most reassuring to hear that a serious Christian like you
thinks there will be `no safety' for the Jews or the Gentiles as
long as the Jews `obey not the Gospel.'
Your conclusion that it is the Jews who are responsible for this sad
state of affairs that you think exists in the world is, no doubt,
original, and at least as undeniable as is everything else that
you've had to say so far.
It's good to see that some of the `serious Christians' out
there in WebTV land are really learning something now that
they have access to the `internets' and can easily study
the nearly 2000 year history of irrational Christian hatred
of Jews from the comfort of their own homes.
David
Bob
thank god he explained this. so the next time when the xtians
slaughter the jews, as they have done throughout history, we know it's
the kike's fault...
david ford
Not so: descendants of Abraham would be much more "fortunate... to
live in a country where" atheism-adherents (e.g. Haeckel and Hitler)
"took their" secular religion "seriously"-- as in the USSR and
post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany.
> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
It seems to me that atheists in power in atheocracies call for and
regularly practice forcible conversion to atheism.
> and this author is now telling us how the jews are undermining xtian
> civilization.
You misread Rabbi Lapin. Re-read, e.g., the passage above mentioning
the boat.
> does it ever stop?
What is "it"?
> >Most Jews are unaware that most serious Christians in this country
> >really do believe that God has been good to America because America has
> >been good to her Jews.
>
> gee...aint this nice for the jews. of course, if things go wrong in
> america, the jews will take the blame. they always have.
I think the God of Judaism, i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
should be blamed for calamities that occur when certain descendants of
Abraham flaunt flagrant disobedience to that God of Judaism and His
moral code.
Barney Frank, a Representative to the U.S. House of Representatives
from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity. Also, he
has ancestors that descended from the Hebrew Abraham. Supposing there
are many more Barney Franks, and supposing the God of Judaism gets
furious as a result-- just look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah,
or what happened in Germany-- I submit to you that the God of Judaism
should "take the blame" for those calamities.
To illustrate, the God of Judaism should be blamed for what happened to
Jonah and his fellow travelers:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%201;&version=31;
Jonah 1 (New International Version)
1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai:
2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its
wickedness has come up before me."
3 But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went
down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying
the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.
4 Then the LORD sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm
arose that the ship threatened to break up.
5 All the sailors were afraid and each cried out to his own god. And
they threw the cargo into the sea to lighten the ship.
But Jonah had gone below deck, where he lay down and fell into a
deep sleep. 6 The captain went to him and said, "How can you sleep?
Get up and call on your god! Maybe he will take notice of us, and we
will not perish."
7 Then the sailors said to each other, "Come, let us cast lots to find
out who is responsible for this calamity." They cast lots and the lot
fell on Jonah.
8 So they asked him, "Tell us, who is responsible for making all this
trouble for us? What do you do? Where do you come from? What is your
country? From what people are you?"
9 He answered, "I am a Hebrew and I worship the LORD, the God of
heaven, who made the sea and the land."
10 This terrified them and they asked, "What have you done?" (They knew
he was running away from the LORD, because he had already told them
so.)
11 The sea was getting rougher and rougher. So they asked him, "What
should we do to you to make the sea calm down for us?"
12 "Pick me up and throw me into the sea," he replied, "and it will
become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come
upon you."
13 Instead, the men did their best to row back to land. But they could
not, for the sea grew even wilder than before.
14 Then they cried to the LORD, "O LORD, please do not let us die for
taking this man's life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an
innocent man, for you, O LORD, have done as you pleased."
15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea
grew calm.
16 At this the men greatly feared the LORD, and they offered a
sacrifice to the LORD and made vows to him.
17 But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was
inside the fish three days and three nights.
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> I think the God of Judaism, i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
> should be blamed for calamities that occur when certain descendants of
> Abraham flaunt flagrant disobedience to that God of Judaism and His
> moral code.
> Barney Frank, a Representative to the U.S. House of Representatives
> from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity. Also, he
> has ancestors that descended from the Hebrew Abraham. Supposing there
> are many more Barney Franks, and supposing the God of Judaism gets
> furious as a result-- just look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah,
> or what happened in Germany-- I submit to you that the God of Judaism
> should "take the blame" for those calamities.
> To illustrate, the God of Judaism should be blamed for what happened to
> Jonah and his fellow travelers:
Let me see if I read you right. Barney Frank is a queer. I am not, but I
should suffer for it?
Bob Kolker
Bob
>Bob wrote:
>
>"scalia just recently was telling jews how fortunate they were to live
>in a country where xtians took their religion seriously"
>
>Not so: descendants of Abraham would be much more "fortunate... to
>live in a country where" atheism-adherents (e.g. Haeckel and Hitler)
>"took their" secular religion "seriously"-- as in the USSR and
>post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany.
did you read his speech before the K of C, or his dissent in the
'mccreary' decision? and, as 200 jewish scholars pointed out in the
document 'dabru ehmet', published in 'first things', while xtianity
did not CAUSE the shoah, it laid the groundwork for it by creating
western antisemitism
you're a fundie so you routinely deny history. you're a revisionist.
>
>> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
>> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
>
>Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
>upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
hey dave...the term 'xtian'? it was invented by christians.
and, yes, xtianity HAS forceably converted people. do you deny that?
>It seems to me that atheists in power in atheocracies call for and
>regularly practice forcible conversion to atheism.
who cares what atheists do? that has zip to do with evolution.
non sequitur.
>
>> does it ever stop?
>
>What is "it"?
xtian persecution of jews.
>
>> >Most Jews are unaware that most serious Christians in this country
>> >really do believe that God has been good to America because America has
>> >been good to her Jews.
>>
>> gee...aint this nice for the jews. of course, if things go wrong in
>> america, the jews will take the blame. they always have.
>
>I think the God of Judaism, i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
>should be blamed for calamities that occur when certain descendants of
>Abraham flaunt flagrant disobedience to that God of Judaism and His
>moral code.
yep...blame the jews...what's next dave? pogroms? ghettoes? what you
got in mind for the christ killers?
>
>Barney Frank, a Representative to the U.S. House of Representatives
>from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity.
ah, the gays too. kikes and queers. you hate 'em all.
>To illustrate, the God of Judaism should be blamed for what happened to
>Jonah and his fellow travelers:
perhaps we should look at the god of jesus christ...in ephesians, for
example, where he tells slaves to obey their masters...or philemon,
where paul actually sent a slave back to his master.
SeppoP
Nice to have these "christians" around, ain't it?
--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)
Matt Silberstein
<dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> in
<dford3-11310234...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:
>Bob wrote:
[snip]
>> ah...and the old threat rears its ugly head. scalia just recently was
>> telling jews how fortunate they were to live in a country where xtians
>> took their religion seriously....the xtians will protect them, you
>> see.
>
>"scalia just recently was telling jews how fortunate they were to live
>in a country where xtians took their religion seriously"
>
>Not so: descendants of Abraham would be much more "fortunate... to
>live in a country where" atheism-adherents (e.g. Haeckel and Hitler)
>"took their" secular religion "seriously"-- as in the USSR and
>post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany.
Who was better to the Jews in the 19th and 20th century, the
Christians of Russia or the Christians of Germany?
>> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
>> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
>
>Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
>upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
It is what *Christians* have called for. What Christianity learns to
speak for itself we can ask it.
[snip]
>Barney Frank, a Representative to the U.S. House of Representatives
>from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity. Also, he
>has ancestors that descended from the Hebrew Abraham. Supposing there
>are many more Barney Franks, and supposing the God of Judaism gets
>furious as a result-- just look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah,
>or what happened in Germany-- I submit to you that the God of Judaism
>should "take the blame" for those calamities.
>To illustrate, the God of Judaism should be blamed for what happened to
>Jonah and his fellow travelers:
In terms of the Darwin quote you gave elsewhere, what are your views
of a God who would punish lots of people because a few have
inappropriate sex? Is that something you want to be true or just
something you believe is true?
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
david ford
According to the Jewish Old Testament, the completely-holy,
distributor-of-justice God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is concerned
about both:
1) the actions of individuals,
and
2) the society as a whole.
If by their actions enough individuals in a society stick it in the eye
of the God of Abraham, the God of Abraham gets angry, and the entire
society suffers.
Freedman, David Noel. 2000. _The Nine Commandments: Uncovering the
Hidden Pattern of Crime and Punishment in the Hebrew Bible_ (NY:
Doubleday), 217pp. About the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499868/qid=1130519881/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books
In post-Darwin, pre-Holocaust Germany, Ernst Rohm flaunted his
aggressive pursuit of homosexual activity, which included partaking of
homosexual sex with boys.
Like Hitler, a fellow pursuer of homosexual activity, Rohm had a
leadership position in Nazi Germany.
Supposing the God of Abraham exists, and supposing the God of Abraham
got angry about Rohm's sex with the boys Rohm victimized, and got angry
over many other actions in post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany, it should
come as no surprise that the entire German society suffered.
Billy Wardlow
otherwise as you seem to assume. I was pointing out a truth that you and
many "serious christians" reject. You pick and choose then "spin" that
which you choose, to suit yourself. Why not stick to the point of my
response, instead of looking for excuses to try to make people feel
sorry for you. How do you define a "serious
Christian"? If your definition of Christian is what you "think" a
Christan is, you are so far off the mark,as many in so-called
Christiandom are it's ridiculous.
david ford
> On 3 Nov 2005 05:10:50 -0800, in talk.origins , "david ford"
> <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> in
> <dford3-11310234...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >Bob wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >> ah...and the old threat rears its ugly head. scalia just recently was
> >> telling jews how fortunate they were to live in a country where xtians
> >> took their religion seriously....the xtians will protect them, you
> >> see.
> >
> >"scalia just recently was telling jews how fortunate they were to live
> >in a country where xtians took their religion seriously"
> >
> >Not so: descendants of Abraham would be much more "fortunate... to
> >live in a country where" atheism-adherents (e.g. Haeckel and Hitler)
> >"took their" secular religion "seriously"-- as in the USSR and
> >post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany.
>
> Who was better to the Jews in the 19th and 20th century, the
> Christians of Russia or the Christians of Germany?
Please sharpen/ make more precise your question.
What exact time frames do you wish to compare?
Who exactly is encompassed by the term [MS]"Christians"?
> >> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
> >> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
> >
> >Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
> >upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
>
> It is what *Christians* have called for.
Names, please.
What did Jesus Christ and Paul call for?
> What Christianity learns to
> speak for itself we can ask it.
>
> [snip]
Do you think 'science' can, or can't, "speak for itself"?
Dallas Willard: "science says nothing. It is not the kind of thing
that can say anything. Only scientists say things...."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407260437.2d8959da%40posting.google.com
> >Barney Frank, a Representative to the U.S. House of Representatives
> >from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity. Also, he
> >has ancestors that descended from the Hebrew Abraham. Supposing there
> >are many more Barney Franks, and supposing the God of Judaism gets
> >furious as a result-- just look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah,
> >or what happened in Germany-- I submit to you that the God of Judaism
> >should "take the blame" for those calamities.
> >To illustrate, the God of Judaism should be blamed for what happened to
> >Jonah and his fellow travelers:
>
> In terms of the Darwin quote you gave elsewhere, what are your views
> of a God who would punish lots of people because a few have
> inappropriate sex?
Please list what is encompassed by [MS]"inappropriate sex."
(Perhaps you'll mention:
sex with children, rape, sex with a person not one's spouse, homosexual
sex, or bestiality/ sex with animals.)
Upon what basis/ grounds do you consider that sex [MS]"inappropriate"?
What constitutes "a few"? 5% of the adult population?
What "Darwin quote"?
> Is that something you want to be true or just
> something you believe is true?
> [snip]
I don't understand that question.
Billy Wardlow
are imaginary images you and others dream up to put the blame on when
you can't accept "Truth". The worst part of that is, you know that it's
just so much bull,but still spread it around.
david ford
> David;such irresponsible statements.
So refute away. If you can.
> I hate no individuals, Jew or
> otherwise as you seem to assume.
"as you [df] seem to"
What exactly did I say?
the atheism-adherent Hitler's actions are quite understandable
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127506418.014874.230840%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
> I was pointing out a truth that you and
> many "serious christians" reject. You pick and choose then "spin" that
> which you choose, to suit yourself. Why not stick to the point of my
> response, instead of looking for excuses to try to make people feel
> sorry for you. How do you define a "serious
> Christian"?
Remind me, if you would: what exactly did I say?
Bob
>Matt Silberstein wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2005 05:10:50 -0800, in talk.origins , "david ford"
>>
>> Who was better to the Jews in the 19th and 20th century, the
>> Christians of Russia or the Christians of Germany?
>
>Please sharpen/ make more precise your question.
>What exact time frames do you wish to compare?
>Who exactly is encompassed by the term [MS]"Christians"?
uh, christians? i know! it's like "who's buried in grant's tomb"...oh,
yes, grant expelled the jews from new orleans...an order countermanded
by lincoln.
>>
>> It is what *Christians* have called for.
>
>Names, please.
>What did Jesus Christ and Paul call for?
holy COW!! there've only been TWO christians in history!
and paul DID call for slavery. in fact, he was quite enamored of it.
>
>>
>> In terms of the Darwin quote you gave elsewhere, what are your views
>> of a God who would punish lots of people because a few have
>> inappropriate sex?
>
>Please list what is encompassed by [MS]"inappropriate sex."
you tell me. you brought it up.
>(Perhaps you'll mention:
>sex with children, rape, sex with a person not one's spouse, homosexual
>sex, or bestiality/ sex with animals.)
rape is like gay sex??
>
>
>I don't understand that question.
>
yeah you do have a problem understanding yourself.
Bob
>
>If by their actions enough individuals in a society stick it in the eye
>of the God of Abraham, the God of Abraham gets angry, and the entire
>society suffers.
which, historically (and today) is a license for dominionist
christians (scalia for example) to deny rights to anyone who isn't a
xtian.
>
>
>Supposing the God of Abraham exists, and supposing the God of Abraham
>got angry about Rohm's sex with the boys Rohm victimized, and got angry
>over many other actions in post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany, it should
>come as no surprise that the entire German society suffered.
not to mention 6,000,000 jews.
Bob
so you're denying christians put jews in ghettoes? expelled them from
every country in europe? slaughtered them? denied them equal rights
throughout history?
yeah, i knew you denied that. being a fundie means never having to say
you're sorry.
Billy Wardlow
whole of "individual responsibilities". The consequences of his actions
does no doubt have predictable results, but he will stand before the
Creator, as we all must, to give an account for things he has done. You
will be judged on what you do, not what Barney does.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> According to the Jewish Old Testament, the completely-holy,
> distributor-of-justice God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is concerned
> about both:
> 1) the actions of individuals,
> and
> 2) the society as a whole.
Schmecklehead. How would you like Collective Guilt applied to all
Christians?
Bob Kolker
Billy Wardlow
Gamorrah, sometimes its whole nations that suffer because of the
consequence of the sins of a few,like Germany etc. What think you Bob?
Lt. Kizhe Catson
> Billy Wardlow wrote:
>
>>David;such irresponsible statements.
>
>
> So refute away. If you can.
>
>
>> I hate no individuals, Jew or
>>otherwise as you seem to assume.
>
>
> "as you [df] seem to"
> What exactly did I say?
Billy -- seems to have trouble including previous posts -- was
addressing the other David, David.
But hey, feel free for the two of you to go butt heads in the corner for
a while. It would be amusing.
-- Kizhe
[.............]
Lt. Kizhe Catson
> Hidden Pattern of Crime and Punishment in the Hebrew Bible_ (NY:
> Doubleday), 217pp. About the book:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499868/qid=1130519881/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-8454961-6898342?v=glance&s=books
>
> In post-Darwin, pre-Holocaust Germany, Ernst Rohm flaunted his
> aggressive pursuit of homosexual activity, which included partaking of
> homosexual sex with boys.
> Like Hitler, a fellow pursuer of homosexual activity, Rohm had a
> leadership position in Nazi Germany.
>
> Supposing the God of Abraham exists, and supposing the God of Abraham
> got angry about Rohm's sex with the boys Rohm victimized, and got angry
> over many other actions in post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany, it should
> come as no surprise that the entire German society suffered.
> Like Hitler, a fellow pursuer of homosexual activity, Rohm had a
> leadership position in Nazi Germany.
>
> Supposing the God of Abraham exists, and supposing the God of Abraham
> got angry about Rohm's sex with the boys Rohm victimized, and got angry
> over many other actions in post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany, it should
> come as no surprise that the entire German society suffered.
Let me get this straight: God is upset with a few people (for what we
will assume are legitimate reasons), so he has punishes everyone?
And you call this kind of indiscriminate tantrum-throwing "justice"?
You and your "God" are even more immoral than I thought.
[snip more of Ford's hate-speech]
-- Kizhe
Bob
i guess the jews were just god's collateral damage, eh?
Bob
i didn't bring him up. you seem to think you'll be punished because he
sleeps with men.
Lt. Kizhe Catson
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:42:47 -0500, grand...@webtv.net (Billy
> Wardlow) wrote:
>
>
>>Sometimes its an inividual.sometimes its a City,like those of Sodom an
>>Gamorrah, sometimes its whole nations that suffer because of the
>>consequence of the sins of a few,like Germany etc. What think you Bob?
>>
>
>
> i guess the jews were just god's collateral damage, eh?
You mean God's got lousier aim than the American Air Force?
-- Kizhe
Matt Silberstein
<dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> in
<dford3-11310336...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
>Matt Silberstein wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2005 05:10:50 -0800, in talk.origins , "david ford"
>> <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> in
>> <dford3-11310234...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:
>> >Bob wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >> ah...and the old threat rears its ugly head. scalia just recently was
>> >> telling jews how fortunate they were to live in a country where xtians
>> >> took their religion seriously....the xtians will protect them, you
>> >> see.
>> >
>> >"scalia just recently was telling jews how fortunate they were to live
>> >in a country where xtians took their religion seriously"
>> >
>> >Not so: descendants of Abraham would be much more "fortunate... to
>> >live in a country where" atheism-adherents (e.g. Haeckel and Hitler)
>> >"took their" secular religion "seriously"-- as in the USSR and
>> >post-Darwin pre-Holocaust Germany.
>>
>> Who was better to the Jews in the 19th and 20th century, the
>> Christians of Russia or the Christians of Germany?
>
>Please sharpen/ make more precise your question.
>What exact time frames do you wish to compare?
What about 19th and 20th Century confused you?
>Who exactly is encompassed by the term [MS]"Christians"?
Try to learn to read English. The Christians of Russia and the
Christians of Germany. Define the terms how you want (just let us know
what you mean). I was thinking about the Christians in the SS and
those who ran the ovens and the Christians who called for the pogroms
and those who enacted the pogroms. (For those who don't know, at least
250,000 Jews were killed by the Russian pogroms. The calls for pogroms
often came from the local churches.)
>> >> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
>> >> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
>> >
>> >Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
>> >upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
>>
>> It is what *Christians* have called for.
>
>Names, please.
How about addresses and phone numbers? You are not actually so
ignorant that you don't know of, for example, the actions of the
Spanish on the Jewish community both before and after the expulsion.
Or the expulsion of Jews from England. I wonder if you think that your
feigned ignorance will somehow make it all go away.
>What did Jesus Christ and Paul call for?
Are those the only Christians you can think of? If so, then there is
really very little to talk about. If there are no living Christians it
really does not matter what Christianity is about.
>> What Christianity learns to
>> speak for itself we can ask it.
>>
>> [snip]
>
>Do you think 'science' can, or can't, "speak for itself"?
Nope. Scientists speak and write.
>Dallas Willard: "science says nothing. It is not the kind of thing
>that can say anything. Only scientists say things...."
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407260437.2d8959da%40posting.google.com
What a thought? Non-living abstractions don't have the actual power of
speech. This is a revelation.
>> >Barney Frank, a Representative to the U.S. House of Representatives
>> >from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity. Also, he
>> >has ancestors that descended from the Hebrew Abraham. Supposing there
>> >are many more Barney Franks, and supposing the God of Judaism gets
>> >furious as a result-- just look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah,
>> >or what happened in Germany-- I submit to you that the God of Judaism
>> >should "take the blame" for those calamities.
>> >To illustrate, the God of Judaism should be blamed for what happened to
>> >Jonah and his fellow travelers:
>>
>> In terms of the Darwin quote you gave elsewhere, what are your views
>> of a God who would punish lots of people because a few have
>> inappropriate sex?
>
>Please list what is encompassed by [MS]"inappropriate sex."
No, you decide. *You* are the one who made comments about Barney Frank
and his sexual activity. I am pretty sure you remember doing so, it is
right there above my comment. You tell me what *you* think about what
*you* wrote.
>(Perhaps you'll mention:
>sex with children, rape, sex with a person not one's spouse, homosexual
>sex, or bestiality/ sex with animals.)
>
>Upon what basis/ grounds do you consider that sex [MS]"inappropriate"?
On the grounds that you think that God will kill people because of it.
It is your claim, not mine.
>What constitutes "a few"? 5% of the adult population?
>
>What "Darwin quote"?
Is it a short term memory thing or what? Or are you unable to draw
inferences? The Darwin quote regarding the "damnable doctrine".
>> Is that something you want to be true or just
>> something you believe is true?
>> [snip]
>
>I don't understand that question.
Your claim that God is going to punish the Jews because Barney Frank
(and others) "flaunt" their homosexuality. Is this something you want
to be true, believe is true, or both?
Lizz Holmans
<now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>Schmecklehead. How would you like Collective Guilt applied to all
>Christians?
Dear heart, it's Jews that have guilt. Christians do shame.
Lizz 'it's a shame to make generalizations' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
David Ewan Kahana
Chaim Yankel, here's a clue for you: in USENET your words live
forever.
Here's what YOU spewed about serious Christians:
From: grandpa3...@webtv.net (Billy Wardlow)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faith is...
SecularFundament...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:18:51 -0500
Message-ID: <20532-43...@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net>
> d.e.k. You are right not to depend on serious Christians to." save the
> Jews this time."? The Jews rejected their King because He didn't set up
> an earthly physical Kingdom,like they expected, but a Spritual one.(The
> Church.) As long as any Jew, ethnic or not, continue reject
> this fact,and obey not the Gospel, there is no safety for them. nor the
> Goyim. "Gentile" non jew.
You're the one telling me what `serious Christians' think, Yankel.
The only thing I did was to take you at your word.
So now, you're saying you've got some problem, you don't want to
stand by your word anymore?
A hiltsener tsung zol er bekommen.
David
Deadrat
"david ford" <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-11310336...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Matt Silberstein wrote:
> > It is what *Christians* have called for.
>
> Names, please.
> What did Jesus Christ and Paul call for?
>
> > What Christianity learns to
> > speak for itself we can ask it.
> >
> > [snip]
>
they are nae Christians. This fallacy has a name tha' escapes
me noo.
Deadrat
<snip>
RobinGoodfellow
Matt Silberstein wrote:
[snip]
> >> >> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
> >> >> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
> >> >
> >> >Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
> >> >upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
> >>
> >> It is what *Christians* have called for.
> >
> >Names, please.
>
> How about addresses and phone numbers? You are not actually so
> ignorant that you don't know of, for example, the actions of the
> Spanish on the Jewish community both before and after the expulsion.
> Or the expulsion of Jews from England. I wonder if you think that your
> feigned ignorance will somehow make it all go away.
>
> >What did Jesus Christ and Paul call for?
>
> Are those the only Christians you can think of? If so, then there is
> really very little to talk about. If there are no living Christians it
> really does not matter what Christianity is about.
[snip]
It's all very simple, Matt. When Christians persecute the Jews, it's
because they aren't really True Christians like Jesus, Paul, and David
Ford. On the other hand, when
commie-liberal-homosexual-evolutionist-pagan-atheists persecute the
Jews, it's because of their fundamentally evil simultaneously
commie-liberal-homosexual-evolutionist-pagan-atheist philosophy. The
only reason you fail to see this essential and self-evident truth is
because you belong to the above-mentioned list of categories that True
Christian David Ford happens to dislike.
[snip]
Paul J Gans
>>d.e.k. You are right not to depend on serious Christians to." save the
>>Jews this time."? The Jews rejected their King because He didn't set up
>>an earthly physical Kingdom,like they expected, but a Spritual one.(The
>>Church.) As long as any Jew, ethnic or not, continue reject
>>this fact,and obey not the Gospel, there is no safety for them. nor the
>>Goyim. "Gentile" non jew.
>>
>thank god he explained this. so the next time when the xtians
>slaughter the jews, as they have done throughout history, we know it's
>the kike's fault...
Always has been.
---- Paul J. Gans
Mitchell Coffey
Pretty much everything, I should think.
>>Who exactly is encompassed by the term [MS]"Christians"?
>
>Try to learn to read English. The Christians of Russia and the
>Christians of Germany. Define the terms how you want (just let us know
>what you mean). I was thinking about the Christians in the SS and
>those who ran the ovens and the Christians who called for the pogroms
>and those who enacted the pogroms. (For those who don't know, at least
>250,000 Jews were killed by the Russian pogroms. The calls for pogroms
>often came from the local churches.)
>
>>> >> of course, martin luther said the same thing, expecting the jews to
>>> >> convert to xtianity. when they didn't, he called for their deaths.
>>> >
>>> >Is that what "xtianity" calls for-- forcible conversion, conversion
>>> >upon pain of death-- if someone declines to adopt "xtianity"?
>>>
>>> It is what *Christians* have called for.
>>
>>Names, please.
Martin Luther, for one.
>How about addresses and phone numbers? You are not actually so
>ignorant that you don't know of, for example, the actions of the
>Spanish on the Jewish community both before and after the expulsion.
>Or the expulsion of Jews from England. I wonder if you think that your
>feigned ignorance will somehow make it all go away.
A few weeks ago, when I mentioned the existence of the RC Church's
traditional deicide libel - not specifics, just that it had existed -
he got rather upset and demanded a citation. He hadn't even heard of
it. He will have forgotten the incident, of course. Since the Church
only made a conclusive, if grudging, statement that it was untrue in
1964, this is not ancient history.
[snip]
The definition is irrelevant to providing an answer to your question.
The fact that Ford consistently dodges reasonable inquiries wrt the
logical consequences of his claims is the only evidence I can think of
that he is evil rather than crazy. And yet, he seems to be saying
that Intelligently Designed genocide is moral if the inappropriate sex
of 5% is inappropriate enough. He probably won't elaborate.
I like the "Jonah and his fellow travelers," though.
By the way, the subset of antisemitism that says Jews are responsible
for the Holocaust (and Hitler was part Jewish, etc.) appears to date
back to circa 1945. Why that date, do you think?
Mitchell
Mitchell Coffey
>extracts of Rabbi Daniel Lapin:
[snip]
I'm pretty sure Rabbi Lapin is the guy who claims anti-smoking
campaigns are evil because Hitler was anti-smoking.
Mitchell Coffey
Billy Wardlow
those things you mentioned. Notice I said "true"Christans, not "serious
people who proclaim to be Christians." I know you are probably thinking
to yourself;what is he talking about. A claimed Christian is a Christian
is he not? No. America claims to be a Christian nation, but that simply
means our Nation was founded on Christian values.(principles). Is it
true,that we're all Christians? No. And so it is with many who claim to
be serious Christians. Their claim does not make it so? Just as you
"assume" that
scientific evolution is a fact,which it isn't, so do you "assume" that
everyone who claims to be a Christan is one when in fact they are not.
You assume so much Bob. Why is that? The answers to your questions
are found in Gods Word.
Who the Creator is, and what must one do to become a true
Christian,not just some who profess they are serious Christians. I would
only hope that you would put as much time into rightly divideing the
Truth, as you put in on trying to convince yourself that the Creator is
not capable of doing what He said He did in six days. Oh! you may say
that is to simplistic. I want theorize on the how and whys and the
wherefores? We can spend several lifetimes tryng to analyze all these
things;many have tried and many still are. But only to find they can't
find the true answers they are seeking.
God has made it so simple for us to ubderstand. But man reject the
Truth, and foolishly try to deny God did it, the Way He said He said He
done it, How long it took Him to do it, and Why He did it. Is He so hard
to believe? And if so, Why?
Roger Tang
> Yes Bob, I deny that any "true" Christian, would be involved in any of
> those things you mentioned.
Why ?
Sounds like you're playing God, here.
Sounds like a sin, bub.
--
oi...@porkfilled.com
Producer, Porkfilled Players (www.porkfilled.com)
Deadrat
"Billy Wardlow" <grand...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2296-436...@storefull-3118.bay.webtv.net...
><snip>
> God has made it so simple for us to ubderstand.
But, alas, so hard to spell.
David Ewan Kahana
> Yes Bob, I deny that any "true" Christian, would be involved in any of
> those things you mentioned.
Of course, Chaim Yankel, of course, you would say that: if a person
were involved in something like that, he or she would probably have
to be a Jew, one of the ones who `rejected their King' and `obey not
the Gospel.'
Speaking of `the Gospel' here's a brief reading from Matthew:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt
tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
"True" Christians are the ones who write things like the following,
is that what you are trying to say?
Is this the fruit by which we shall know you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: grandpa3...@webtv.net (Billy Wardlow)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faith
is...SecularFundament...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:49:04 -0500
Message-ID: <8775-436...@storefull-3117.bay.webtv.net>
>David;such irresponsible statements. I hate no individuals, Jew or
>otherwise as you seem to assume. I was pointing out a truth that you and
>many "serious christians" reject. You pick and choose then "spin" that
>which you choose, to suit yourself. Why not stick to the point of my
>response, instead of looking for excuses to try to make people feel
>sorry for you. How do you define a "serious
>Christian"? If your definition of Christian is what you "think" a
>Christan is, you are so far off the mark,as many in so-called
>Christiandom are it's ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: grandpa3...@webtv.net (Billy Wardlow)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faith is...
SecularFundament...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:18:51 -0500
Message-ID: <20532-43...@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net>
>d.e.k. You are right not to depend on serious Christians to." save the
>Jews this time."? The Jews rejected their King because He didn't set up
>an earthly physical Kingdom,like they expected, but a Spritual one.(The
>Church.) As long as any Jew, ethnic or not, continue reject
>this fact,and obey not the Gospel, there is no safety for them. nor the
>Goyim. "Gentile" non jew.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those two excellent men, Lyra and Burgensis, together with
others, truthfully described the Jews' vile interpretation for us
two hundred and one hundred years ago respectively.
Indeed they refuted it thoroughly. However, this was no help at
all to the Jews, and they have grown steadily worse. They have
failed to learn any lesson from the terrible distress that has
been theirs for over fourteen hundred years in exile.
Nor can they obtain any end or definite terminus of this, as they
suppose, by means of the vehement cries and laments to God. If
these blows do not help, it is resonable to assume that our
talking and explaining will help even less.
Therefore a Christian should be content and not argue with the
Jews. But if you have to or want to talk with them, do not say
any more than this: "Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem
and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood,
have been destroyed for over 1,460 years?" For this year, which
we Christians write as the year 1542 since the birth of Christ,
is exactly 1,468 years, going on fifteen hundred years, since
Vespasian and Titus destroyed Jerusalem and expelled the Jews
from the city.
Let the Jews bite on this nut and dispute this question as long
as they wish. For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient
evidence that they assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a
child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so
cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terribly,
so unmercifully, and in addition keep silent, comforting them
neither with words nor with deeds, and fixing no time limit and
no end to it. Who would have faith, hope, or love toward such a
God? Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely
rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any
longer their God. This is in accord with Hosea 1 [:9], "Call his
name Not my people, for you are not my people and I am not your
God." Yes, unfortunately, this is their lot, truly a terrible
one. They may interpret this as they will; we see the facts
before our eyes, and these do not deceive us.
If there were but a spark of reason or understanding in them,
they would surely say to themselves: "O Lord God, something has
gone wrong with us. Our misery is too great, too long, too
severe; God has forgotten us!" etc. To be sure, I am not a Jew,
but I really do not like to contemplate God's awful wrath toward
this people. It sends a shudder of fear through body and soul,
for I ask, What will the eternal wrath of God in hell be like
toward false Christians and all unbelievers? Well, let the Jews
regard our Lord Jesus as they will. We behold the fulfillment of
the words spoken by him in Luke 21 [:20, 22 f.]: "But when you
see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation
has come near . . . for these are days of vengeance. For great
distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people.
In short, as has already been said, do not engage much in debate
with Jews about the articles of our faith. From their youth they
have been so nurtured with venom and rancor against our Lord that
there is no hope until they reach the point where their misery
finally makes them pliable and they are forced to confess that
the Messiah has come, and that he is our Jesus. Until such a time
it is much too early, yes, it is useless to argue with them about
how God is triune, how he became man, and how Mary is the mother
of God. No human reason nor any human heart will ever grant these
things, much less the embittered, venomous, blind heart of the
Jews. As has already been said, what God cannot reform with such
cruel blows, we will be unable to change with words and
works. Moses was unable to reform the Pharaoh by means of
plagues, miracles, pleas, or threats; he had to let him drown in
the sea.
-- Martin Luther, 1543
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness,
surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for
what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who,
God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In
boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the
passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and
seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers
and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the
Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest
emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the
Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be
cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and
justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that
we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as
a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out
in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and
look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no
Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did
not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those
by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, 1922
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David
Robert J. Kolker
>
> God has made it so simple for us to ubderstand.
Yes. All we have to do is study nature. It is Man who has complicated
things by writing bogus scriptures and establishing religious
hierarchies. The Heavens and the Earth do not lie. Men often do.
> But man rejects the Truth,
I prefer the Facts, as observed to the Truth that you claim.
Bob Kolker
Billy Wardlow
Lutheran or a follower of Lutheran doctrine nor a Hitlerite and follower
of his doctrine.You.like Bob, are grasping at "straw men" in trying to
figure someway to escape the facts. Just what are you running from?
Could it possibly be the facts, as I stated them? Come on now "fess up".
Are you saying Luther and Hitler were Christians; or were they claiments
to be Christians? Your by their fruits you shall know them, may
applicable to them,but since I do not follow their doctrine, you are
mistaken in trying to connect what I believe to their beliefs. If after
two thousand years you and Bob still have guilty consciences because of
what your forefathers did to their Messiah, then I suggest you read and
digest Ezekial the 18th chapter in which the 29th verse states,The soul
that sinneth, it shall die."The son shall not bear the iniquity of the
father,neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the
righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him,and the wickedness of
the wicked upon him.......... So relax if that is what you
are refererencing and worrying about. But do righteousness by Obeying
the gospel of the Messiah. That is the only hope any of us have. 2nd
Thessalonians 1:1-10. Gentile and Jew alike. Find out what a true
Christian is and you will be less likely to compare them to those who
merely profess to be.Yes it takes study and thinking, but I believe both
you and Bob can know the truth and it shall set you free,as one on this
ng keeps repeating. I do not know why he does so. But I could
conjecture.That's between him and God.
Robert J. Kolker
> David,David, Why is this nonsense written to me, I am neither a
> Lutheran or a follower of Lutheran doctrine nor a Hitlerite and follower
> of his doctrine.You.like Bob, are grasping at "straw men" in trying to
> figure someway to escape the facts. Just what are you running from?
> Could it possibly be the facts, as I stated them? Come on now "fess up".
> Are you saying Luther and Hitler were Christians;
They were Christians. You cannot seem to grasp that Christianity has
within its very being Jew hatred and eventually hatred of the human race
for being what it is. Tha notion that G-D really hates us and will not
accept us until we bathe ourselves in the bodily fluid of His Only
Begotten Son is an abomination. It is heathen. It is pagan. Would you
worship a god like that? I wouldn't.
If I live to be a thousand (G-D forbid!) I will never understand how the
goyim think. I can only guess or approximate that.
Bob Kolker
By their fruits ye shall know them --- Some Galilean Carpenter
Billy Wardlow
equate a madman,Hitler, and a misguided Cathollic priest as such you
have to reach that illogical conclusion huh? You hate Luther, you hate
Hitler and you hate Christians. isn't that right?
David Ewan Kahana
> David,David, Why is this nonsense written to me, I am neither a
> Lutheran or a follower of Lutheran doctrine nor a Hitlerite and follower
> of his doctrine.
Chaim, Chaim: this nonsense is written you because of the
nonsense you wrote to me.
You are, I may suppose, a follower of your own doctrine, which
you stated succinctly for me here:
From: grandpa3...@webtv.net (Billy Wardlow)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faith is...
SecularFundament...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:18:51 -0500
Message-ID: <20532-43699DBB...@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net>
>d.e.k. You are right not to depend on serious Christians to." save the
>Jews this time."? The Jews rejected their King because He didn't set up
>an earthly physical Kingdom,like they expected, but a Spritual one.(The
>Church.) As long as any Jew, ethnic or not, continue reject
>this fact,and obey not the Gospel, there is no safety for them. nor the
>Goyim. "Gentile" non jew.
These statements of yours, Chaim, are odious in the extreme: vile
is not too strong a word to describe what you say.
These are the self-same statements that have lain at the core of
Christian antisemitism through the ages. This kind of thinking is
in part what was used to help justify the murder of some of my
relatives. This is no effort to make people feel sorry for me, as
I never even had the chance to know the relatives who were
killed.
It's a statement of historical fact that an uncle of mine and his
family were killed in a town on the border of Ukraine and Poland
by their Christian neighbours of 30 years.
What you say above, Chaim, about 2000 year old `history' is not
fact.
> You.like Bob, are grasping at "straw men" in trying to
> figure someway to escape the facts. Just what are you running from?
> Could it possibly be the facts, as I stated them?
Chaim Yankel: you do not obtain a monopoly on facts concerning
Christianity just because you call yourself a 'true' Christian,
and clothe yourself in smug self-righteousness.
There is not a single verifiable fact that any person living
today knows to be true about the historical Yeshua ben Yosef,
assuming, of course, that such a person ever existed.
Further, there is not a single saying in the entire Synoptic
Gospels, or in the Gospel of John, that can be attributed to
Yeshua ben Yosef with any degree of certainty.
The story of what happened to Yeshua that you have received, is a
matter of *your faith* it is not a matter of fact.
I believe, if I were an observant Jew, and I emphasize here that
I am not an observant Jew, that I should likely have no quarrel
whatever with Yeshua ben Yosef if he existed. I have a quarrel
with some of those who have, in the subsequent ages, called
themselves the followers of Christ.
Yeshua would have been a Jew living among Jews, during what all
of the available history suggests was a terrible time for the
Jews. He was a Jew who, it would have to be said, based on all of
the canonical and non-canonical material available about the
fable of his life, trusted in the covenant with YHVH to the end,
whether or not that end took place on the cross, where the Romans
put him.
It was on a particular version of the Christian faith, which you
partly espouse above, that the very real historical persecution
of the Jews, by those who have called themselves Christians has
been based.
The only way we human beings, Chaim, can know people to be
Christians is when they claim it for themselves.
If we are not omnisicent ourselves, and for my part I know very
well that I am not, then we cannot claim to know whether people
are or are not `true' Christians.
Hitler and Luther both claimed to be Christians, and here is the
real point: they had as much right to make that claim for
themselves as you do for yourself.
> Come on now "fess up".
> Are you saying Luther and Hitler were Christians; or were they claiments
> to be Christians?
There is no difference between claiming and being, for me,
Yankel. Unlike you, I do not claim to be able to draw the
distinction.
Had many more people who called themselves Christians actually
rejected what Luther and Hitler had to say about the Jews at the
time when they said it, then I would have a very different
opinion of Christianity than I do.
But history shows that only a very few Christians had any
problems at all with either Luther's or Hitler's views.
In my opinion that is largely because far too many Christians
believed about the Jews something very much like what you say you
believe about the Jews, and the words that they heard from those
men sounded well enough in their ears.
Today, the Lutheran councils of North America have disavowed what
Luther had to say about the Jews (in 1989 I believe). The
Catholics under John Paul II issued a new catechism in 1994, in
which they have greatly changed their ancient lore about the
Jews.
Not all who claim to be Christians today say what you do.
> Your by their fruits you shall know them, may
> applicable to them,but since I do not follow their doctrine, you are
> mistaken in trying to connect what I believe to their beliefs.
I attribute to you only what you have said about your beliefs.
There is a resemblance though, between what you have to say about
what you believe, and what others have had to say before about
what they believed. I note that resemblance. I think that you
ought to re-examine your beliefs in the light of history.
I apply the verses from Matthew about false prophets to you and
your doctrine as you've stated it. I think the verses are
apposite, since you do, in fact, prophecy to us and claim to know
the `truth.'
> If after
> two thousand years you and Bob still have guilty consciences because of
> what your forefathers did to their Messiah, then I suggest you read and
> digest Ezekial the 18th chapter in which the 29th verse states,The soul
> that sinneth, it shall die."The son shall not bear the iniquity of the
> father,neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the
> righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him,and the wickedness of
> the wicked upon him.......... So relax if that is what you
> are refererencing and worrying about. But do righteousness by Obeying
> the gospel of the Messiah. That is the only hope any of us have. 2nd
> Thessalonians 1:1-10. Gentile and Jew alike. Find out what a true
> Christian is and you will be less likely to compare them to those who
> merely profess to be.Yes it takes study and thinking, but I believe both
> you and Bob can know the truth and it shall set you free,as one on this
> ng keeps repeating. I do not know why he does so. But I could
> conjecture.That's between him and God.
If you are not actually an antisemite yourself, Chaim, then you
are playing the role of a Christian religious antisemite to a
tee.
You are simply spewing more of the same bile you started with:
The Jews must recognize the facts as you state them, that's the
only hope. The Jews, who you say are my forefathers, supposedly
did a terrible thing to `their' `Messiah.' The Jews must study
the Gospel, accept what you say about it, and obey. So on, and so
on, ad nauseam.
I only ask readers who may find your words attractive to
consider:
What if Chaim Yankel, here, doesn't have all his facts right?
What if Chaim turns out to be a false prophet?
David
Billy Wardlow
underwhelming!
David Ewan Kahana
> David,David, Why is this nonsense written to me, I am neither a
> Lutheran or a follower of Lutheran doctrine nor a Hitlerite and follower
Chaim, Chaim: this nonsense is written you because of the
nonsense you wrote to me.
You are, I may suppose, a follower of your own doctrine, which
you stated succinctly for me here:
From: grandpa3...@webtv.net (Billy Wardlow)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faith is...
SecularFundament...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:18:51 -0500
Message-ID: <20532-43699DBB...@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net>
>d.e.k. You are right not to depend on serious Christians to." save the
>Jews this time."? The Jews rejected their King because He didn't set up
>an earthly physical Kingdom,like they expected, but a Spritual one.(The
>Church.) As long as any Jew, ethnic or not, continue reject
>this fact,and obey not the Gospel, there is no safety for them. nor the
>Goyim. "Gentile" non jew.
These statements of yours, Chaim, are odious in the extreme: vile
is not too strong a word to describe what you say.
These are the self-same statements that have lain at the core of
Christian antisemitism through the ages. This kind of thinking is
in part what was used to help justify the murder of some of my
relatives. This is no effort to make people feel sorry for me, as
I never even had the chance to know the relatives who were
killed.
It's a statement of historical fact that an uncle of mine and his
family were killed in a town on the border of Ukraine and Poland
by their Christian neighbours of 30 years.
What you say above, Chaim, about 2000 year old `history' is
not fact.
> You.like Bob, are grasping at "straw men" in trying to
> figure someway to escape the facts. Just what are you running from?
> Could it possibly be the facts, as I stated them?
Chaim Yankel: you do not obtain a monopoly on facts concerning
Christianity just because you call yourself a 'true' Christian,
and clothe yourself in smug self-righteousness.
There is not a single verifiable fact that any person living
today knows to be true about the historical Yeshua ben Yosef,
assuming, of course, that such a person ever existed.
Further, there is not a single saying in the entire Synoptic
Gospels, or in the Gospel of John, that can be attributed to
Yeshua ben Yosef with any degree of certainty.
The story of what happened to Yeshua that you have received, is a
matter of *your faith* it is not a matter of fact.
I believe, if I were an observant Jew, and I emphasize here that
I am not an observant Jew, that I should likely have no quarrel
whatever with Yeshua ben Yosef if he existed. I have a quarrel
with some of those who have, in the subsequent ages, called
themselves the followers of Christ.
Yeshua would have been a Jew living among Jews, during what all
of the available history suggests was a terrible time for the
Jews. He was a Jew who, it would have to be said, based on all of
the canonical and non-canonical material available about the
fable of his life, trusted in the covenant with YHVH to the end,
whether or not that end took place on the cross, where the Romans
put him.
It is on a particular version of the faith that eventually became
Christianity, part of which you espouse above, that the very real
historical persecution of the Jews, by those who have called
themselves Christians has been based.
The only way mere human beings, Chaim, can know people to be
Christians is when they claim that for themselves.
If we are not ominiscient ourselves, and for my part I know very well
that I am not, then we cannot claim to know whether people are or
are not `true' Christians.
Hitler and Luther both claimed to be Christians, and here is the
real point: they had as much right to make that claim for
themselves as you do for yourself.
> Come on now "fess up".
> Are you saying Luther and Hitler were Christians; or were they claiments
> to be Christians?
There is no difference between claiming and being, for me,
Yankel. Unlike you, I do not claim to be able to draw the
distinction.
Had many more people who called themselves Christians actually
rejected what Luther and Hitler had to say about the Jews at the
time when they said it, then I would have a very different
opinion of Christianity than I do.
But history shows that only a very few Christians had any
problems at all with either Luther's or Hitler's views.
In my opinion that is largely because far too many Christians
believed about the Jews what you say you believe about the Jews,
and the words that they heard from these men sounded well enough
in their ears.
Today, the Lutheran councils of North America have disavowed what
Luther had to say about the Jews (in 1989 I believe). The
Catholics under John Paul II issued a new catechism in 1994, in
which they have greatly changed their ancient lore about the
Jews.
Not all who claim to be Christians today say what you do.
> Your by their fruits you shall know them, may
> applicable to them,but since I do not follow their doctrine, you are
> mistaken in trying to connect what I believe to their beliefs.
I attribute to you only what you have said about your beliefs.
There is a resemblance though, between what you have to say about
what you believe, and what others have said before about what
they believed. I note the resemblance. I think that you ought to
re-examine your beliefs in the light of history.
I apply the verses from Matthew about false prophets to you and
your doctrine as you've stated it. I think this apposite, since
you do, in fact, prophecy to us and claim to know the `truth.'
> If after
> two thousand years you and Bob still have guilty consciences because of
> what your forefathers did to their Messiah, then I suggest you read and
> digest Ezekial the 18th chapter in which the 29th verse states,The soul
> that sinneth, it shall die."The son shall not bear the iniquity of the
> father,neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the
> righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him,and the wickedness of
> the wicked upon him.......... So relax if that is what you
> are refererencing and worrying about. But do righteousness by Obeying
> the gospel of the Messiah. That is the only hope any of us have. 2nd
> Thessalonians 1:1-10. Gentile and Jew alike. Find out what a true
> Christian is and you will be less likely to compare them to those who
> merely profess to be.Yes it takes study and thinking, but I believe both
> you and Bob can know the truth and it shall set you free,as one on this
> ng keeps repeating. I do not know why he does so. But I could
> conjecture.That's between him and God.
If you are not actually an antisemite yourself, Chaim, then you
are playing the role of a Christian religious antisemite to a
tee.
You are simply spewing more of the same bile you started with:
The Jews must recognize the facts as you state them, that's the
only hope. The Jews, who you say are my forefathers, supposedly
did a terrible thing to `their' `Messiah.' The Jews must study
the Gospel, accept what you say about it, and obey. So on, and so
on, ad nauseam.
I only ask any readers who may find your words attractive to
Billy Wardlow
believe Him and not all the confusion I read on this ng. I wonder why
you feel it necessary to try to answer for Bob or David? Do you beleive
they are incapable of so doing? Neither have so far. But old dek can
answer for them.Hummmm? Anymore utter nonsense?
shane
No, you appear to be finished fo now. However I have no doubt you will
gird your loins and continue to post even more nonsense. I imagine your
supply of it is almost endless.
Roger Tang
> Olnk; anymore thoughtless and useless rhetoric? Your posts are SO
> underwhelming!
Yet, it remains the case that you feel you are capable of deciding who
is and who is not a "true Christian".
That's arrogating God's authority to yours.
Of course, that's underwhelming to you; you glory in your own sin.
Ain't your job to judge who is and who isn't Christian; tend to your
own sins and stop judging others...lest you be judged.
Roger Tang
> dek. SUCH TRIPE. No I am not God or close to being Him.
Then why do you feel so comfortable saying that other professed
Christians who disagree with you are not real Christians?
That's NOT your job. Quit taking God's authority for yourself.
> I do however
> believe Him and not all the confusion I read on this ng.
Then why try to do His job for Him?
Foolish, foolish man.....
> I wonder why
> you feel it necessary to try to answer for Bob or David? Do you beleive
> they are incapable of so doing? Neither have so far. But old dek can
> answer for them.Hummmm? Anymore utter nonsense?
Billy Wardlow
closed.
Bob
Wardlow) wrote:
so do you "assume" that
>everyone who claims to be a Christan is one when in fact they are not.
IOW only HE knows who a xtian is...god nothwithstanding...
>Truth, as you put in on trying to convince yourself that the Creator is
>not capable of doing what He said He did in six days.
and one is amazed at the irony: creationists say god COULDN'T have
used evolution...
god's kinda stupid you see...
>
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
Bob
Wardlow) wrote:
.. If after
>two thousand years you and Bob still have guilty consciences because of
>what your forefathers did to their Messiah,
jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
John Wilkins
>
>>two thousand years you and Bob still have guilty consciences because of
>>what your forefathers did to their Messiah,
>
>
> jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Looks like it. Another anti-Semite using religion to justify his racism. Blame
it on Darwinism...
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
"Darwin's theory has no more to do with philosophy than any other
hypothesis in natural science." Tractatus 4.1122
Paul J Gans
>Bob wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:41:21 -0500, grand...@webtv.net (Billy
>> Wardlow) wrote:
>>
>>
>> ... If after
>>
>>>two thousand years you and Bob still have guilty consciences because of
>>>what your forefathers did to their Messiah,
>>
>>
>> jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
>Looks like it. Another anti-Semite using religion to justify his racism. Blame
>it on Darwinism...
Actually, I blame it on WebTV. Not all Websters are idiots,
but my experiences in other newsgroups tend to make me think
that it is where the brainless tend to congregate.
It's something like engineers and creationism.
---- Paul J. Gans
Robert J. Kolker
>
> jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
>
> Looks like it. Another anti-Semite using religion to justify his racism. Blame
> it on Darwinism...
Race has to do with genetically transmitted charactersitics. Religion is
learned behaviour.
Do not confuse bigotry with racism.
Bob Kolker
David Ewan Kahana
It's clear he doesn't have the balls to put it in so many words,
but that's the way I read what he's saying.
David
Billy Wardlow
authority,to put one to death.But you know at whose request and leading
they crucified the Messiah? If not, read it for youself. 'Oh he must be
anti-semitic!' No. Just being "factual". Something you should learn,
you, and your sideline cheerleaders also.
david ford
> > > from Massachusetts, openly flaunts his homosexual activity. Also, he
> > > has ancestors that descended from the Hebrew Abraham.
Ref:
_Stars of David: Prominent Jews Talk About Being Jewish_ (2005).
About the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767916123/qid=1131396730/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl14/103-0412946-6976638?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
I am interested in learning of prominent secularists that have
ancestors that were descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The atheism-adherents George Soros and Peter Singer have such
ancestors.
Ref:
Soros's _Soros on Soros: Staying Ahead of the Curve_
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471119776/qid=1131397081/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0412946-6976638?v=glance&s=books
Singer's _Pushing Time Away: My Grandfather and the Tragedy of Jewish
Vienna_
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060501332/qid=1131397259/sr=1-24/ref=sr_1_24/103-0412946-6976638?v=glance&s=books
Max Nordau was a secularist having such ancestors.
Speaking of him:
Is infanticide or breeding humans "evil"?
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1131383831.179267.205750%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
What can you tell me about Magnus Hirschfield, especially his views of
the God of Judaism and the Judeo-Christian God?
I read the items at
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.gw-bush/msg/fe5392b9e945b82c?dmode=source&hl=en
and
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.gw-bush/msg/07705f98f15f6e24?dmode=source&hl=en
The remarks below appeared in those 2 posts. What below is:
correct?
incorrect?:
"Prominent Jewish politicians like
Congressman Charles Schumer of New York, Senator Carl Levin of
Michigan, Senator Diane Feinstein of California, Senator Barbara Boxer
of California and former Senator Howard Metzenbaum of Ohio, are just a
few of the numerous liberal Jews"
"the head of the ACLU in Michigan, Howard Simon, is a Jew"
"the current national director of the ACLU is a Jewish woman by the
name of Nadine Strossen"
"the previous national director of the ACLU, Ira Glasser, is a Jew"
"The National
Organization of Women was primarily founded by a Jewish woman by the
name of Betty Friedan. Today the National Organization of Women is
presided over by lesbians and feminists like Eleanor Smeal, Judy
Goldsmith and Gloria Steinem all of whom are Jewish."
"most of the male homosexuals who appear on TV shows
are Jewish"
"the leader of the militant homosexual activist group
'ACT-UP' is an angry Jewish homosexual named Larry Kramer"
"the Jewish Poet Allan
Ginsberg... was a notorious child molester. The infamous poet,
Ginsberg,
was a pederast who had a preference for little boys"
"it was Jewish bankers in New York City, like Jacob Schiff, et al, who
gave the Marxist Leninists Twenty Million
Dollars ($500 million in 1998 dollars) to finance a Communist
Revolution in Russia in 1917"
"Karl Marx and Trotsky were Jews. Lenin's grandfather was Jewish.
In America the leader of the communist party for decades was a Jew by
the name of Gus Hall"
"There is no need to exaggerate the part played
in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the
Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part
atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably
outweighs all others. the majority of the leading figures are Jews.
Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the
Jewish leaders. Thus, Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his
nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like
Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky,
or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of
Krasin or Radek--all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance
of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the
principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary
Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution [Cheka, forerunner
of the KGB] has been taken by Jews,
and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was
obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun
ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany
(especially in Bavaria)"
"during the years Nelson Mandela spent in prison, the defacto leader of
the African National Congress was a murderous Jewish Communist butcher
named Joe Slovo. Slovo, when he was alive, was Nelson Mandela's right
hand man in the ANC"
"Jewish spies named Julius and Ethel
Rosenberg sold them [the Soviets] the information they required to
build a nuclear
Bomb"
"David Horowitz is an American Jew who was very liberal in the
1960's and is now, politically speaking, very conservative. In his book
'Destructive Generation' he relates that both of his parents were
communists. .... The main thesis of the Horowitz book is that the
1960's were very
destructive to all that is good and right in America. Horowitz relates
that one of the primary goals of the communists in the 1960's was to
promote a breakdown of sexual morality."
"Alger Hiss, who was
convicted of being an American member of the Communist Party and was
also one of the principal founders of the United Nations, was he a Jew?
Yes. Alger Hiss was the number two man in President Franklin D.
Roosevelt's administration and a leader in formulating and
administering both our foreign policy and relations with the Soviet
Union. Alger Hiss was the principal author of the United Nations
Charter. He was the UN's first Secretary General in April 1945. In
February of 1945 at the Yalta Conference when the United States
conceded Eastern Europe to the nightmare of communist control, Alger
Hiss was the chief aide to Secretary of State Edward Stettinius who was
second only to FDR himself."
"radio shock jock Howard Stern is a Jew"
"'Dr. Ruth' Westheimer, the nationally known 'sex therapist', is a
Jew"
"Roseanne Barr, Ricky Lake, Maury Povich and Jerry Springer are all
Jews"
"Hitler was substantially
financed by wealthy Jewish Internationalists such as the Rothchild's"
"Hitler was financed by Krupp,
the Warburgs, the Rothschilds, and other internationalist bankers"
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[Rabbi Lapin]"Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular
Fundamentalism are
drilling holes under their seats in the boat of our culture. Those
Jews who dissent need to make their voices heard, if for no other
reason than to reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
not the drillers."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1130966841.647594.258020%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
secular leftist individuals having Jewish ancestors
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1129867015.194883.157910%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Billy Wardlow
tell if one is a Christian by knowing what the God of Creation says
one must do to become a Christian and then finding out if the professed
Christian, has obeyed His Word. You see, Oink, this takes away all the
"hypothetical" reasoning that is so extant, in the realm of religion,as
well as the scientific community concerning The Creator. This is
the only way we can judge "righteous judgment". But hopeing you can
understand this is like hopeing you could be reasonable and logical, and
I do not see you as being such. Sad,but true right?
rich hammett
You're right, of course. If you believe that story to be
the whole, complete, literal truth, then those Jews were
responsible for Jesus being put to death.
And, of course, those Jews in the story said that Jesus' blood
would be upon them AND their children.
So, if you believe in the bible literally, AND you believe that
people have the right to demand punishment for their unborn
descendents, then you might have something relevant to say
for the modern world. It will at least reveal something
about you.
Otherwise, what's the point of this?
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ The Bill Clinton of RSFC
Robert J. Kolker
>
> You're right, of course. If you believe that story to be
> the whole, complete, literal truth, then those Jews were
> responsible for Jesus being put to death.
All Jews? Ninty percent of all the Jews at the time were in the
diaspara. They never heard of Yoshky Pundric.
Bob Kolker
rich hammett
> rich hammett wrote:
"those Jews."
Roger Tang
> Oink, you are so judgmental of somone you know nothing about.
As are you.
What justifies you, and not me?
> I can only
> tell if one is a Christian by knowing what the God of Creation says
> one must do to become a Christian and then finding out if the professed
> Christian, has obeyed His Word.
And how do you tell this?
All I can tell about you is that you feel that you feel comfortable to
call others not Christians, merely on whether or not they believe
evolution occurs.
Hm. Sounds like you're judging other people (which is NOT your job).
And the criterion isn't on their personal relationship with God, but
what YOU think is the correct thing to say.
> You see, Oink, this takes away all the
> "hypothetical" reasoning that is so extant, in the realm of religion,as
> well as the scientific community concerning The Creator. This is
> the only way we can judge "righteous judgment".
What is you authority to make "righteous judgement"? That's God's
territory, not yours.
> But hopeing you can
> understand this is like hopeing you could be reasonable and logical, and
> I do not see you as being such. Sad,but true right?
Ah, but it's so sad that you're arrogating to yourself, what rightly
is God's. Instead of worrying about your relationship, you're far too
busy telling others what YOU think is right or wrong.
Billy Wardlow
hypothesis.Uderstand????
Matt Silberstein
<bubba...@warmmail.com> in <11mvja8...@corp.supernews.com>
wrote:
>Minä suojelen sinua kaikelta, mitä ikinä keksitkin sanoa, Billy Wardlow:
>> Bob, your self pity is showing more and more;The Romans only, had the
>> authority,to put one to death.But you know at whose request and leading
>> they crucified the Messiah? If not, read it for youself. 'Oh he must be
>> anti-semitic!' No. Just being "factual". Something you should learn,
>> you, and your sideline cheerleaders also.
>
>You're right, of course. If you believe that story to be
>the whole, complete, literal truth, then those Jews were
>responsible for Jesus being put to death.
>
>And, of course, those Jews in the story said that Jesus' blood
>would be upon them AND their children.
>
>So, if you believe in the bible literally, AND you believe that
>people have the right to demand punishment for their unborn
>descendents, then you might have something relevant to say
>for the modern world. It will at least reveal something
>about you.
>
>Otherwise, what's the point of this?
I can't help you, it is you who must decide,
If Judas Iscariot had God on his side.
Robert Zimmerman.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Robert J. Kolker
> Bob,what is really stupid is trying to prove Truth with a bunch
> hypothesis.Uderstand????
One does not -prove- a general hypothesis is true with a finite number
of corroberations. One -proves- a hypothesis is false by an empirical
falsification of one of its logical consequences. Model Tolens, a valid
principle of logic. Popper 101.
Bob Kolker
>
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> I can't help you, it is you who must decide,
> If Judas Iscariot had God on his side.
Judas Iscariot is just about as real as Yoshky Pundric the Saviour.
Bob Kolker
david ford
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> > Bob wrote:
> > >
> > > jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
> >
> > Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
>
> but that's the way I read what he's saying.
For what reason(s) did Jesus-- who claimed to be a member of the
Judeo-Christian God Godhead trinity-- come to earth in human form to
die?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the New
Testament says Jesus came to die a sacrificial death to make possible
payment for the sins/ "evil" deeds of everybody that has ever and will
ever live.
Instead of animal sacrifices seen in the Jewish Old Testament, Jesus
became a once-for-all-time sacrifice.
The way I read it, the "evil" deeds of me and you and the 6 billion
people presently alive and the people that have died and the people yet
to be born were what made it necessary for Jesus to die.
IOW, _every human_ played a part in Jesus' death.
david ford
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1130966841.647594.258020%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular
Fundamentalism are drilling holes under their seats in the
boat of our culture. Those Jews who dissent need to
make their voices heard, if for no other reason than to
reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
not the drillers.
Who are some prominent descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that
Rabbi Lapin would consider bailers/ not-drillers?
Here's what I have thus far:
Rabbi Daniel Lapin
Dennis Prager
Dr. Laura Schlessinger
Michael Medved
Don Feder
David Klinghoffer
Klinghoffer's "Worshipers At The Secular Altar"
http://www.mylifeafter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33302&sid=37dac5255c9255476199764b590e8d0b
Nat Hentoff, who broke with the American Communist Leftist Union in
part over its pro-infanticide stance.
Not a ref:
Hentoff's "Lying about Terri Schiavo"
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10715
David Horowitz [correct?]
William Kristol [correct? I thought I saw him in the _Stars of David_
book]
2003 Kaplan & Kristol on tyranny in Iraq
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0410250243.6567731b%40posting.google.com
_Stars of David: Prominent Jews Talk About Being Jewish_ (2005).
About the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767916123/qid=1131396730/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl14/103-0412946-6976638?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Charles Krauthammer
Senator Joe Lieberman (D-CT)
who supported Terri
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141202.31ec7f3b%40posting.google.com
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
who are some prominent secularists that have ancestors that were
descendants of Abraham?
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1131398384.542240.261050%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
david ford
> Rabbi Daniel Lapin
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1130966841.647594.258020%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular
> Fundamentalism are drilling holes under their seats in the
> boat of our culture. Those Jews who dissent need to
> make their voices heard, if for no other reason than to
> reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
> not the drillers.
>
> Who are some prominent descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that
> Rabbi Lapin would consider bailers/ not-drillers?
Jay Sekulow: How a Jewish Lawyer from Brooklyn Came to Believe in
Jesus
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/lifestories/jay_sekulow
Tracy Hamilton
Do you agree with this [Jesus}?
" No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and
love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
Then look up Jay Sekulow's fleecing of the flock.
Tracy P. Hamilton
Icarus
> The way I read it, the "evil" deeds of me and you and the 6 billion
> people presently alive and the people that have died and the people
> yet to be born were what made it necessary for Jesus to die.
> IOW, _every human_ played a part in Jesus' death.
The way I read it, your god created evil. Whence cometh evil, if not from
him?
Matt Silberstein
Kolker" <now...@nowhere.com> in <3tb8huF...@individual.net>
wrote:
Whoosh.
(And I did give Zimmerman credit for the line, Robert snipped it.)
david ford
Sounds fine to me.
Do you have any counterexamples?
> Then look up Jay Sekulow's fleecing of the flock.
Would you care to provide details?
Do you grant that O'Hair engaged in "fleecing of the flock"?
Thompson, Howard, i.e. Gofreemind. 1998/05/22. "Questions for
Leaders of American Atheists, Inc." from the 22 May 98 issue of The
Texas Atheist newsletter. At
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=1998052218175400.OAA07579%40ladder01.news.aol.com
For newer atheists, Madalyn was anything but
heroic. Her rude, obnoxious public displays
were an embarrassment. Her court rejected
attempt at looting the Hervey Johnson
foundation was outrageous. Her shuffling of
funds among ten or more family owned
corporations was shady, at best. We'll never
know the total of member donated funds
appropriated for personal use, funds beyond the
$600,000 her son Jon Murray apparently took
during the last weeks.
The issue of moral integrity for atheists is clear.
If we lack the courage and honesty to openly
examine our leaders, then we must forever
remain silent when stories of Jim Bakers and
pedophile Priests titillate the media. We must
forever refrain from presenting atheism as a
better alternative than theism.
Thompson, Howard, i.e. Gofreemind. 1 Jan 2002. "American Atheists -
Leadership Coup" At
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=20020101155710.20315.00003180%40mb-ba.aol.com
For example, there were persistent stories that
Madalyn O'Hair skimmed millions of dollars of
atheist donations into secret accounts -- such as
Madalyn's 1980 diary mention of gold coins in a
Swiss account.
Gibson, David. "The Martha Stewart of Atheism" an excerpt from
October 1999 issue of New Jersey Monthly magazine. At
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/19/story_1979.html
"I want money and power, and I am going to get
it," O'Hair once wrote in her diary, and she
allegedly fulfilled her ambition on the backs of
her followers, plundering the organization's
accounts to support a lifestyle that included
$1,000-a-day vacations, mink coats, and
expensive cars. Yet she still owed more than
$250,000 when she vanished.
david ford
> Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.atheism,sci.skeptic,talk.atheism
> Subject: Re: eugenics and the left
> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:54:32 -0500
> Lines: 53
> Message-ID: <di68tk$e97$1...@SonOfMaze.dpo.uab.edu>
>
> david ford wrote:
> > AC wrote:
> >>On 6 Oct 2005 06:54:14 -0700,> >>>>> http://jonjayray.netfirms.com/lefteug2.html
> >>>>
> >>>>The document cited discredited itself at the very
> >>>>beginning by asserting that Hitler was a socialist.
> >>>
> >>>Which of these individuals do you consider "socialist"?:
> >>>Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Khrushev, Brezhnev, Pol Pot,
> >>>Castro, Kim Jong Il, MAO Zedong?
> >>
> >>Well Marx and Engels are definites, Lenin and Trotsky getting a little
> >>dimmer, Stalin was simply a dictator, Kruschev a slightly nicer dictator,
> >>Brezhnev liked cars but as far as ideaology went, I don't think he really
> >>had one, Pol Pot was a maniac, Castro is a dictator, Kim Jong Il is a
> >>god-king, and good ol' Chairmon Mao started out as some sort of Socialist
> >>but pretty much just became a dictator.
> >
> > Suppose someone is a "dictator"; does that mean that that person isn't
> > a socialist?
>
> Given that the idea of socialism is that there should be societal
> control of economics, and dictators replace
> that with individual control, then yes.
>
> However, I include those dictators who claim through propaganda
> to be just be doing what the "workers" (or whatever the putative
> controlling group in society is) want.
>
> Hitler, from the beginning advocated the Leader Principle, so his
> being dictator was part and parcel of what Nazism was claimed to be.
> Not only that, but he left business pretty much alone, not even
> putting the economy on a war footing until way too late. LBJ
> was not the first to use the "Guns and Butter" approach.
>
> > Who are all the socialists you're aware of that have headed up a
> > country?
>
> France comes to mind real quick.
Who are all the _socialists_ you're aware of that have headed up a
country?
"France comes to mind"
What are some things you like about France?
I like the environmentally-sensitive way the French dispose of their
cars-- by burning.
> [snip more Ford tedium]
who is a "socialist"?; some atheism adherents' development and use of
brutal terror tactics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128703737.434501.234400%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
david ford
_The Washington Times_
November 9, 2005
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20051109-122418-9246r.htm
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
caging homophobic pastors
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127529658.506206.300210%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
ACLU requests jail for Tangipahoa school officials
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127745432.742149.20950%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
the secular religion of atheism has a 'bloody history'
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1121400956.627638.38960%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
have Maff, Humphrey, Dwyer, Dennett, and Dawkins gone around
[LM]"behaving like idiots"?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-36ptr0F53hkerU1%40individual.net
Yahya and Koster on the use of fear and force
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030811.4e8cd1bd%40posting.google.com
david ford
Statement of Michael J. Horowitz
Before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
July 31, 2003
==
Here's a report that appeared in August 2002 in the South Korean
magazine _Women's News_:
The victims are reported to be sold to old bachelors or
widowers in the countryside for 3000 yuan (a little over
$400) each and forced into marriage. According to a
North Korean women support group, in most cases a few
men from the same village pool their money to purchase
one woman. If five men buy the joint ownership of one
woman, the woman is forced to have sex with all five of
them by night and take care of all five households and
farms by day. There are cases where brothers buy and
share one woman. A woman caught and sold to a village
becomes an important village property. And so all the
villagers keep watch over the woman, making escape
impossible. On top of this, marriage between North
Korean refugees and Chinese nationals is not recognized
by law, meaning that these women have nowhere to turn
to for protection.
Originally reported by Claudia Rosett of the _Wall Street Journal_, the
mistreatment and fate of men sent to Siberian logging camps is equally
inhuman. Begun in the mid-sixties as a bargain between the regimes of
Leonid Brezhnev and Kim Il Sung, father of North Korea's current "Dear
Leader" dictator, the Pyongyang-Moscow labor program is now employed by
the North Korean regime in part as a means by which it repays debts to
Russia and finances trade barters with that country. North Korean
loggers are housed in unheated facilities, often without windows
notwithstanding 50 degree below zero
temperatures. As reported by Human Rights Watch, men are required to
work 16-18 hours a day, given almost no food, are of course wholly
separated from their families and have their movements controlled by
regime security guards. Other observers have noted that men seeking
escape or asylum or even temporary respite from monitoring by their
North Korean guards are routinely tortured and in most cases put to
death. Needless to say, tens of thousands of "contract labor" men have
died and continue to die in logging camps now estimated to employ no
fewer than 15,000-20,000 men.
The above examples of deliberate, for-profit slave trade by the
Pyongyang regime is and should be shocking to the conscience of all
mankind. But there is an additional fact-- _even more shocking_-- that
perhaps provides the best indication of what life is like inside the
evil, lunatic regime of Kim Jong Il.
_In fact, knowing much of the death camp character of Russian logging
camps, many men seek to work there as an alternative to continuing life
inside North Korea._
_In fact, knowing that they risk capture in China either by trafickers
who will rape and sell them or by Chinese authorities who will return
them to North Korea for certain imprisonment in gulags, many women seek
escape to China as an alternative to continuing life inside North
Korea._
The reasons why people "choose" Siberian logging/death camps and
fugitive lives inside China are not only, not primarily, "economic."
North Korean Christians routinely risk their lives to escape North
Korea's borders on any terms because they know that discovery of a
bible which they or any member of their family may hold in secret will
expose all of them to imprisonment and torture. Residents of portions
of North Korea thought not
to be sufficiently loyal to the regime also routinely risk their lives
to escape because they know that the regime will initiate genocidal
starvation campaigns on their villages. Others, human beings in the
fullest sense of the term, crave basic freedoms and know they will be
imprisoned and tortured for manifesting the smallest sign of that
desire, and find it preferable to risk their lives to escape.
==
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Full contents of the PDF at
http://foreign.senate.gov/testimony/2003/HorowitzTestimony030731.pdf
Statement of Michael J. Horowitz
Before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
July 31, 2003
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to
share information and my views on the issue that will best test
America's capacity for decency and greatness-- one that may also best
determine the world's safety and security.
I'm particularly honored to participate in a hearing designed to expose
the most corrupt aspects of North Korea's so-called "economy." A
significant purpose of my testimony is to speak of a truly evil
income-producing activity in which the Pyongyang regime is actively
engaged, beyond its better-known export of missiles and drugs. There's
a third export category which is a growing and increasingly important
source of cash to Kim Jong Il and the leadership cadres around him:
the export of human beings as slaves.
The Trafficking in Persons Office, in its June report issued pursuant
to the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, rightly listed North Korea
as a so-called Tier 3 country. It did so because of two separate
categories of deliberately enslaved North Koreans whom the regime
literally "exports": women sold either as prostitutes or "wives" of
rural Chinese men; and men "contracted" to work in Siberian logging
camps. As to the women, human rights and religious observers have
reported that tens of thousands of North Korean women are sold to
brothels or to Chinese "snake" traders. Here's a report that appeared
in August 2002 in the South Korean magazine _Women's News_:
The victims are reported to be sold to old bachelors or
widowers in the countryside for 3000 yuan (a little over
$400) each and forced into marriage. According to a
North Korean women support group, in most cases a few
men from the same village pool their money to purchase
one woman. If five men buy the joint ownership of one
woman, the woman is forced to have sex with all five of
them by night and take care of all five households and
farms by day. There are cases where brothers buy and
share one woman. A woman caught and sold to a village
becomes an important village property. And so all the
villagers keep watch over the woman, making escape
impossible. On top of this, marriage between North
Korean refugees and Chinese nationals is not recognized
by law, meaning that these women have nowhere to turn
to for protection.
Originally reported by Claudia Rosett of the _Wall Street Journal_, the
mistreatment and fate of men sent to Siberian logging camps is equally
inhuman. Begun in the mid-sixties as a bargain between the regimes of
Leonid Brezhnev and Kim Il Sung, father of North Korea's current "Dear
Leader" dictator, the Pyongyang-Moscow labor program is now employed by
the North Korean regime in part as a means by which it repays debts to
Russia and finances trade barters with that country. North Korean
loggers are housed in unheated facilities, often without windows
notwithstanding 50 degree below zero temperatures. As reported by
Human Rights Watch, men are required to work 16-18 hours a day, given
almost no food, are of course wholly separated from their families and
have their movements controlled by regime security guards. Other
observers have noted that men seeking escape or asylum or even
temporary respite from monitoring by their North Korean guards are
routinely tortured and in most cases put to death. Needless to say,
tens of thousands of "contract labor" men have died and continue to die
in logging camps now estimated to employ no fewer than 15,000-20,000
men.
The above examples of deliberate, for-profit slave trade by the
Pyongyang regime is and should be shocking to the conscience of all
mankind. But there is an additional fact-- _even more shocking_-- that
perhaps provides the best indication of what life is like inside the
evil, lunatic regime of Kim Jong Il.
_In fact, knowing much of the death camp character of Russian logging
camps, many men seek to work there as an alternative to continuing life
inside North Korea._
_In fact, knowing that they risk capture in China either by trafickers
who will rape and sell them or by Chinese authorities who will return
them to North Korea for certain imprisonment in gulags, many women seek
escape to China as an alternative to continuing life inside North
Korea._
The reasons why people "choose" Siberian logging/death camps and
fugitive lives inside China are not only, not primarily, "economic."
North Korean Christians routinely risk their lives to escape North
Korea's borders on any terms because they know that discovery of a
bible which they or any member of their family may hold in secret will
expose all of them to imprisonment and torture. Residents of portions
of North Korea thought not to be sufficiently loyal to the regime also
routinely risk their lives to escape because they know that the regime
will initiate genocidal starvation campaigns on their villages.
Others, human beings in the fullest sense of the term, crave basic
freedoms and know they will be imprisoned and tortured for manifesting
the smallest sign of that desire, and find it preferable to risk their
lives to escape.
I also appear before the Committee today, Mr. Chairman, as a
representative of an extraordinary group now being formed in the United
States: the North Korea Freedom Coalition. Chaired by Concerned Women
for America's president, Sandy Rios, who has been to North Korea and
the North Korea-China border, this coalition held its opening session
last week. More than 35 religious groups pledged their active
participation in the coalition, as did-- _and this is critical_--
representatives of the Korean American communities of the United
States.
This coalition, which ranges from the National Association of
Evangelicals to the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, from
Korean American leadership groups of New York to Korean American
leadership groups of Los Angeles, has an overarching, strategic public
policy goal. It will passionately work to put at the core of U.S.
foreign policy towards North Korea a commitment to address and
ameliorate the human rights conditions under which those living under
the Pyongyang regime must now endure. Put in other terms, the North
Korea Freedom Coalition and its members will use every democratic
resource at its command to ensure that no agreement with Pyongyang of
which the United States is a part purports to exchange promises by
Pyongyang not to export its terrorism for licenses and subsidies to the
regime to continue practicing terrorism against its own people.
The Coalition also intends to work with church and human rights groups
in South Korea to oppose the South Korean government's current
unwillingness to seek human rights and democracy for the people of
North Korea. In particular, the Coalition intends to do all within its
power to
broadcast and counter the seeming policy of the South Korean government
to _maintain_ the Pyongyang regime in power because it fears, based on
the experience of West Germany following the collapse of East Germany,
that freedom for its North Korean brothers and sisters will impose
unduly costly burdens on the South Korean economy.
The Coalition will also focus on the condition of North Korean refugees
and would-be defectors and will work to provide safe harbor protection
for those starving and vulnerable victims. This will be done through
calls to revise U.S. immigration law, through pressures the Coalition
intends to place on the United Nations to more aggressively seek access
to North Korean refugees in China, and through efforts it intends to
make with the South Korean and Chinese governments to ensure fair, safe
and legal treatment of North Korean refugees.
The Coalition expects to soon begin active work with Members of
Congress to introduce and enact major legislation focused on true
Korean Peninsular security and North Korean freedom. As indicated, any
such legislation will contain provisions to protect North Korean
refugees, and provisions restricting U.S. burden-sharing support for
countries impacted by the North Korean economy to those actively
committed to promoting North Korean human rights. In addition, the
Coalition will support legislation to provide financial support for
North Korea human rights organizations and will seek to ensure
fulfillment of Chairman Lugar's recent request to Kofi Annan that the
U.N. prepare reports on the North Korean gulag system, and will seek to
mandate United States intelligence agencies to prepare similar, public
reports. The Coalition will seek to expand Radio Free Asia and Voice
of America Korean language broadcasts into North Korea, will seek
authorization for the Commission on International Religious Liberty to
hold educational hearings on religious persecution in North Korea, and
will seek more active United States monitoring of North Korean drug
smuggling activities.
But perhaps most of all, the legislation and the Coalition will seek to
ensure that no financial aid will be given to the Pyongyang regime
under any negotiated agreement to which the United States is a party
unless the agreement ensures measurable progress in such areas as
family reunification, expanded religious freedom, freedom to migrate by
families of persons kidnapped by the North Korean regime, modification
of the regime's definitions and prosecutions of "political crimes,"
active gulag monitoring by outside bodies and monitored assurances that
food aid to the regime actually goes to starving people on a needs
basis.
The Coalition believes as, from all we know, what President Bush
believes: That American interests are best pursued by respect for
American values, and that American security in a post-9/11 world is
best ensured by the spread of human rights and democracy.
I thank this Committee for holding hearings today based on those
principles and thus believe that today's hearings will contribute both
to American security and to the amelioration of the inhuman conditions
which the current residents of North Korea must now endure.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
david ford
> dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
> > Les Hellawell wrote:
> >
> > [snips]
> >
> > > I did not say Hitler was a Christian though he did follow Christian
> > > tradition and persecute Jews.
> >
> > Mr. Kahana and another
>
> My remarks concerning the new catechism of the Church, published only
> very recently, are NOT to be interpreted as an argument that there
> was no Christian tradition of anti-semitism. There most emphatically
> was, and I argued for it in the post from which Mr. Ford excerpted
> these brief paragraphs.
OK.
I quoted you stating:
Thanks really are due to Popes John XXIII and John Paul II
for at long, long, long last injecting some degree, at long
last, of reason, humanity and historicity into the basic
attitude of the Roman Church towards the Jews, and for
trying to place events of 2000 years ago into at least some
context, rather than leaving the term `the Jews' free of any
reference to time at all or specificity as to person, place
or motivation whatever.
At long last, one can see some acknowledgement of the strong
ties of the Christian faith to Judaism ... Jesus is said to
have been regarded as a Rabbi, to have upheld the Sinaitic
laws. Now, one can at least begin to talk sensibly about who
is and who is not included, when blame is to be placed.
In practice, what was said about `the Jews' by some of those
who were Catholic Priests was at many times far, far worse
than what happened to be in the catechism. For sure that was
the case in Austria and Germany at the time of Hitler's
education.
The new catechism is emphatically not the old catechism. It
has been recognized by many in the Catholic hierarchy that
there was need for that, judging from the efforts and
response of John Paul II and John XXIII to the events of
WWII.
"Thanks really are due to Popes John XXIII and John Paul II for at
long, long, long last"
In which years did they do this?
During which years were these guys popes?
"At long last, one can see some acknowledgement of the strong ties of
the Christian faith to Judaism"
Compare:
Viereck, Peter. 1941, 1961, 1965. _Metapolitics: The Roots of the
Nazi Mind_ (NY: Capricorn Books), 371pp. On 286:
A book by Friedrich Delitzsch in 1920 also influenced
[Nazi thinker Alfred] Rosenberg against Paul and the Old
Testament. The famous Catholic refutation of Rosenberg
proves convincingly that Christianity is inseparable from
the Old Testament, that the connection is umbilical and
introduced not merely by Paul but by Jesus Himself.
> > http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128911062.573907.279240%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> > Did "Hitler... follow Christian tradition" in persecuting Catholics and
> > Protestants?
>
> To the limited extent that Hitler persecuted Catholics
> and Protestants at all, he followed well-established Christian
> tradition. See `Reformation' and `Counter-reformation.'
Details?
> [snip]
>
> > > RC hatred of jews was still very strong in the
> > > first quarter of the 20th C. The dictator of one German ally in
> > > eastern Europe was also a Roman catholic priest and he pro-actively
> > > assisted the holocaust.
> >
> > What's the name of this "dictator of one German ally in eastern
> > Europe," and of which country was he dictator?
>
> Probably meant above was: Father Josef Tiso, Slovakia,
> and his fascist Ludak party.
How did "Father Josef Tiso, Slovakia, and his fascist Ludak party" come
to power?
> Slovakian Jews numbered about 90,000 at the time of the
> census in late 1938, after Czechoslovakia ceased to exist,
> and parts of it were given away to Hungary.
>
> The Slovak government passed anti-Jewish codes
> completely equivalent to the Nuremberg laws.
I'm reminded of
Hitler's debt to American eugenicists
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/offSiteArchive/HitlerDebtToAmerica.html
> The Slovak
> government enthusiastically agreed to deport its Jews
> to Germany, famously, Vojtech Tuka, the prime minister,
> following the Wannsee meeting, negotiated an agreement
> by which Slovakia would pay the Germans 500 Reichsmark
> for every Jew they took. Himmler proposed making
> Slovakia free of Jews and the government happily
> agreed. The Jews were deported starting in March, 1942,
> and by October, at least 59,000 had been removed. A
> large number ended in Auschwitz, Majdanek and Sobibor.
> Some ended in Treblinka.
>
> For additional Catholic dicators in Eastern Europe see:
> Ante Pavelic, Croatia; Miklos Horthy, Hungary; Emil Hacha,
> Bohemia-Moravia.
How did these "Catholic dicators in Eastern Europe" become dictators--
how did they come to power?
> There was a bona fide surfeit of cheerful Catholic fascists
> in Europe, east and west, at the time of WWII.
>
> [snip]
Matt Silberstein
<dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> in
<dford3-11314631...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
>Rabbi Daniel Lapin
>http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1130966841.647594.258020%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular
> Fundamentalism are drilling holes under their seats in the
> boat of our culture. Those Jews who dissent need to
> make their voices heard, if for no other reason than to
> reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
> not the drillers.
>
>Who are some prominent descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that
>Rabbi Lapin would consider bailers/ not-drillers?
Shouldn't you ask him?
>Here's what I have thus far:
>
>Rabbi Daniel Lapin
>
>Dennis Prager
>
>Dr. Laura Schlessinger
>
>Michael Medved
>
>Don Feder
[snip]
As the song goes "one of these things is not like the other". There is
something wrong with that list. Can you figure it out?
AC
david ford <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
> Extracts (fuller text below):
And what precisely were the slave owners in the Southern States, David?
Were they atheists as well? Yes or no will do.
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Tracy Hamilton
> Tracy Hamilton wrote:
>
>>david ford wrote:
>>
>>>david ford wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Rabbi Daniel Lapin
>>>>http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1130966841.647594.258020%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>>>> Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular
>>>> Fundamentalism are drilling holes under their seats in the
>>>> boat of our culture. Those Jews who dissent need to
>>>> make their voices heard, if for no other reason than to
>>>> reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
>>>> not the drillers.
>>>>
>>>>Who are some prominent descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that
>>>>Rabbi Lapin would consider bailers/ not-drillers?
>>>
>>>Jay Sekulow: How a Jewish Lawyer from Brooklyn Came to Believe in
>>>Jesus
>>>http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/lifestories/jay_sekulow
>>
>>Do you agree with this [Jesus}?
>>
>>" No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and
>>love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
>>Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
>
>
> Sounds fine to me.
[snip dumb question]
>>Then look up Jay Sekulow's fleecing of the flock.
>
>
> Would you care to provide details?
They are easily enough found by anybody interested. Then apply
what this guy [Jesus] said, if you are able, to this person that
YOU brought up as a believer in this guy [Jesus].
> Do you grant that O'Hair engaged in "fleecing of the flock"?
That "You cannot serve God and Mammon" comment
doesn't apply to people who don't claim to serve God.
[snip quotes that are therefore irrelevant]
Tracy P. Hamilton
rich hammett
> On 8 Nov 2005 07:19:27 -0800, in talk.origins , "david ford"
> <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> in
> <dford3-11314631...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>Rabbi Daniel Lapin
>>http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1130966841.647594.258020%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>> Many ethnic Jews whose faith is really Secular
>> Fundamentalism are drilling holes under their seats in the
>> boat of our culture. Those Jews who dissent need to
>> make their voices heard, if for no other reason than to
>> reassure other passengers that we are among the bailers
>> not the drillers.
>>
>>Who are some prominent descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that
>>Rabbi Lapin would consider bailers/ not-drillers?
> Shouldn't you ask him?
>>Here's what I have thus far:
>>
>>Rabbi Daniel Lapin
>>
>>Dennis Prager
>>
>>Dr. Laura Schlessinger
>>
>>Michael Medved
>>
>>Don Feder
> [snip]
> As the song goes "one of these things is not like the other". There is
> something wrong with that list. Can you figure it out?
Is Daniel Lapin the only observant Jew on the list? I'm pretty
sure that Dr. Laura is evangelical Xtian these days.
maff
david ford wrote:
[...]
The problem for you is that you're a certified scientifically
illiterate Christian fascist idiot.
David Ford is an IDiot
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/4d7acc8b3b957a72
David Ford isn't a scientist
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/73bd9299a30235bf
Matt Silberstein
<bubba...@warmmail.com> in <11n4ma6...@corp.supernews.com>
wrote:
I don't think she has yet announced as evangelical, but she has said
that she has dropped her Judaism. Prager is observant, but not
orthodox. I don't know about Medved.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> I don't think she has yet announced as evangelical, but she has said
> that she has dropped her Judaism. Prager is observant, but not
> orthodox. I don't know about Medved.
Medved is shomer shabbos.
Bob Kolker
>
>
>
david ford
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42462
Jews for Morality
http://www.jewsformorality.org/