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From: Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Air breathing fish again
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:20:19 +0100
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In message <JWB*D+...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Arkalen 
<arka...@inbox.com> writes
>On 15/05/12 16:02, Richard Norman wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 May 2012 10:50:30 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <bpn2r71sl8u7c9gh9grk65mt7t2rlbt...@4ax.com>,
>>> Richard Norman <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 07:59:34 -0700 (PDT), UC
>>>> <uraniumcommit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On May 13, 3:50 pm, Richard Norman <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2012 14:10:56 +0000 (UTC), nos...@nospam.com (Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ciszek) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <ltoqq7d8ffrm1phtiper9j45eosp9d8...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Richard Norman  <r_s_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are quite correct in emphasizing the use of breathing organs other
>>>>>>>> than lungs/swim bladders.  I just mentioned it in passing and it is
>>>>>>>> too easily passed by.  I interpreted the question on obligate air
>>>>>>>> breathing technically and narrowly without regard to what organ is
>>>>>>>> involved.  The real question is the relation of tetrapod lungs to fish
>>>>>>>> lungs and swim bladders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I asked the multiple questions that I did because I am interested
>>>>>>> in air-breathing fish in general, including those who lost their lungs
>>>>>>> and evolved other ways to breath air.  Particularly interesting are
>>>>>>> those cases of fish that *must* breath air, but have to do so using
>>>>>>> something other than lungs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't gone back to the sources to verify this but my impression is
>>>>>> that pretty much all the respiratory exchange surfaces of fish
>>>>>> were/are derived from the pharynx or other regions of the digestive
>>>>>> tract  There is good reason for that.  The early ostracoderms and then
>>>>>> placoderms were heavily plated so that their external surface could
>>>>>> not be used as for respiratory exchange.  By contrast, the pharyngeal
>>>>>> slits were originally used for both feeding and then for respiration
>>>>>> as gills.  The mouth is also an easy way to take in air for surface
>>>>>> living fish.  So the swim bladder and the fish lungs were both
>>>>>> pharyngeal derivations, as are most of the other breathing methods.
>>>>>> The buccal cavity and gut are also well vascularized surfaces that can
>>>>>> be used.  The labyrinthine organ of gourami or Siamese fighting fish
>>>>>> is, I believe, a derivative of the gills.  I have read that some eels
>>>>>> can use their skin for some respiration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fish are somewhat limited in that these respiratory surfaces have
>>>>>> limited area for exchange.  Creating large areas for exchange is very
>>>>>> difficult because surface tension will collapse small air sacs.  True
>>>>>> fish lungs have a surfactant coating to help prevent this much like
>>>>>> that of tetrapod lungs.  The auxiliary respiratory exchange surfaces
>>>>>> in fish don't have surfactant and so cannot be finely divided and
>>>>>> still hold air.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was not aware previously that there were any obligate air-breathing
>>>>> fish.
>>>>
>>>> See, you can actually learn something here.
>>>>
>>>> You can learn a lot more simply by learning to google, for example,
>>>> "obligate air breathing fish".
>>>
>>> Few would spontaneously thin of the concept "obligate air breathing
>>> fish". Of course, Homer the sap is an > "obligate air breathing fish".
>>
>> If you really wanted to gather together all things called "fish" into
>> a single clade, then spiders and earthworms are obligate air breathing
>> fish.
>>
>
>If we really wanted to gather all things called "fish" into a single
>clade, what organisms would NOT be fish ?
>Plants ?
>
Sponges, fungi, algae, unicellular eukaryotes, bacteria, archaea

Now, if you wanted to gather all things called "slime moulds" into a 
single clade ...

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slime_mould
-- 
Alias Ernest Major