In the News: Cave painting could be oldest lunar calendar
Jason Spaceman
bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chris Hall
>
> http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
Amazing how it didn't get washed off in the flood.
--
Chris.
Brian O'Neill
Chris Hall wrote:
> Jason Spaceman wrote:
> ?
> ? http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
>
> Amazing how it didn't get washed off in the flood.
>
> --
> Chris.
As the flood was most likely caused by melting of ice maybe 9,000BC, the oceans rose
350ft to their present levels. The Black Sea example of 7,100 BC is also caused by this
although very suddenly as the Bosphoros broke through.
As early civilization, like later Ionian, most likely lived at sea-river coastal areas,
the end of the Ice Age must have been a catastrophe, even if slower than the Sinop
discovery.
So if there were inland tribes, such as at Lascaux, they may not represent the coastal
civilization at all, and it is not difficult to see how caves went unharmed even as a
whole civilization was being inundated.
Matt Silberstein
Spaceman <jspace...@my-deja.com>:
>http://cbc.ca/cgi-
>bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
>
From that page:
"He says a group of dots and squares painted among images of bulls,
horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
moon."
Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
or did the writer not know the length?
--
Matt Silberstein TBC HRL OMM
Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
Make me a poster of an old rodeo
Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
To believe in this living is just a hard way to go.
J.P.
Sverker Johansson
>
> In talk.origins I read <8sk9cc$opj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> from Jason
> Spaceman <jspace...@my-deja.com>:
>
> >http://cbc.ca/cgi-
> >bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
> >
> From that page:
>
> "He says a group of dots and squares painted among images of bulls,
> horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
> moon."
>
> Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
> or did the writer not know the length?
There exists a lunar calendar twice as old as this one, and much
less ambiguous. It's not just dots and squares spread around,
but a clear sequence of marks cut along a bone.
I don't have a primary reference handy, but
you can find it in Tattersall's (1998) 'Encyclopedia of human
evolution and prehistory'
--
Best regards, HLK, Physics
Sverker Johansson U of Jonkoping
----------------------------------------------
Definitions:
Micro-evolution: evolution for which the evidence is so
overwhelming that even the ICR can't deny it.
Macro-evolution: evolution which is only proven beyond
reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt.
Mike Owen
Matt Silberstein wrote:
>
> In talk.origins I read <8sk9cc$opj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> from Jason
> Spaceman <jspace...@my-deja.com>:
>
> >http://cbc.ca/cgi-
> >bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
> >
> From that page:
>
> "He says a group of dots and squares painted among images of bulls,
> horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
> moon."
>
> Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
> or did the writer not know the length?
Um, the synodic period of the moon is 27.32 days. This is the time it
takes the moon to return to the same point in the sky relative to the
fixed stars. The sidereal period is 29.53 days. This is the time for
the moon to return to the same phase (e.g. full).
Mike
Matt Silberstein
Owen <m_o...@bellsouth.net>:
Ok, it is possible they were recording that. But I find sidereal the
more significant. Especially with a differing symbol.
Brian O'Neill
Sverker Johansson wrote:
> Matt Silberstein wrote:
> ?
> ? In talk.origins I read ?8sk9cc$opj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com? from Jason
> ? Spaceman ?jspace...@my-deja.com?:
> ?
> ? ?http://cbc.ca/cgi-
> ? ?bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
> ? ?
> ? From that page:
> ?
> ? "He says a group of dots and squares painted among images of bulls,
> ? horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
> ? moon."
> ?
> ? Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
> ? or did the writer not know the length?
>
> There exists a lunar calendar twice as old as this one, and much
> less ambiguous. It's not just dots and squares spread around,
> but a clear sequence of marks cut along a bone.
> I don't have a primary reference handy, but
> you can find it in Tattersall's (1998) 'Encyclopedia of human
> evolution and prehistory'
I have heard of this. I thought it was on ivory. Anyway there is also an
ivory carving found, 18,000 yrs old in Siberia, with the double spiral
glyph found all over the Irish astronomical monuments dated by the
establishment at 3,200 BC. There the glyph refers to the year's progress of
the Sun, not the moon. This glyph is found in much later Malta tombs in a
very abstract setting.
Strange thing is that double spiral only makes sense at latitudes between
the equator and the arctic circle, so what it was doing so far north is a
mystery. As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
Brian O'Neill
Matt Silberstein wrote:
> In talk.origins I read ?39EF3FEA...@bellsouth.net? from Mike
> Owen ?m_o...@bellsouth.net?:
>
> ?
> ?
> ?Matt Silberstein wrote:
> ??
> ?? In talk.origins I read ?8sk9cc$opj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com? from Jason
> ?? Spaceman ?jspace...@my-deja.com?:
> ??
> ?? ?http://cbc.ca/cgi-
> ?? ?bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
> ?? ?
> ?? From that page:
> ??
> ?? "He says a group of dots and squares painted among images of bulls,
> ?? horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
> ?? moon."
> ??
> ?? Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
> ?? or did the writer not know the length?
> ?
> ?Um, the synodic period of the moon is 27.32 days. This is the time it
> ?takes the moon to return to the same point in the sky relative to the
> ?fixed stars. The sidereal period is 29.53 days. This is the time for
> ?the moon to return to the same phase (e.g. full).
>
> Ok, it is possible they were recording that. But I find sidereal the
> more significant. Especially with a differing symbol.
See the calendar stones in "The Stones of Time" (by Martin Brennan), easily
visited today in Dowth, Ireland. Parts of the monuments have been dated to
3,200 BC. Difficult to say when other carved stones were actually done.
>
>
Sverker Johansson
> Sverker Johansson wrote:
> > Matt Silberstein wrote:
> > ?
> > ?
> > ? ?http://cbc.ca/cgi-
> > ? ?bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
> > ? ?
> > ? From that page:
> > ?
> > ? horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
> > ? moon."
> > ?
> > ? Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
> > ? or did the writer not know the length?
> >
> > There exists a lunar calendar twice as old as this one, and much
> > less ambiguous. It's not just dots and squares spread around,
> > but a clear sequence of marks cut along a bone.
> > I don't have a primary reference handy, but
> > you can find it in Tattersall's (1998) 'Encyclopedia of human
> > evolution and prehistory'
>
Quite possibly I may have misremembered the material.
> Anyway there is also an
> ivory carving found, 18,000 yrs old in Siberia, with the double spiral
> glyph found all over the Irish astronomical monuments dated by the
> establishment at 3,200 BC. There the glyph refers to the year's progress of
> the Sun, not the moon. This glyph is found in much later Malta tombs in a
> very abstract setting.
>
> Strange thing is that double spiral only makes sense at latitudes between
> the equator and the arctic circle, so what it was doing so far north is a
> mystery.
Most of Siberia is between the equator and the arctic circle.
In any case, it was populated largely by nomads, who may
well have traveled across the arctic circle at some point.
No big deal. Where exactly was it found?
> As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
Around that timeframe IIRC. But they left plenty of
bones and ivory behind. It may have been used long
after the mammoth died.
Brian O'Neill
Sverker Johansson wrote:
> Brian O'Neill wrote:
> ? Sverker Johansson wrote:
> ? ? Matt Silberstein wrote:
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? In talk.origins I read ?8sk9cc$opj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com? from Jason
> ? ? ? Spaceman ?jspace...@my-deja.com?:
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ?http://cbc.ca/cgi-
> ? ? ? ?bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/10/17/lunarcavedrawing001017
> ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? From that page:
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? "He says a group of dots and squares painted among images of bulls,
> ? ? ? horses and other animals symbolizes the 27-day cycle of the Earth's
> ? ? ? moon."
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? Wonder where the error occurred. Are there only 27 "dots and squares"
> ? ? ? or did the writer not know the length?
> ? ?
> ? ? There exists a lunar calendar twice as old as this one, and much
> ? ? less ambiguous. It's not just dots and squares spread around,
> ? ? but a clear sequence of marks cut along a bone.
> ? ? I don't have a primary reference handy, but
> ? ? you can find it in Tattersall's (1998) 'Encyclopedia of human
> ? ? evolution and prehistory'
> ?
> ? I have heard of this. I thought it was on ivory.
>
> Quite possibly I may have misremembered the material.
>
> ? Anyway there is also an
> ? ivory carving found, 18,000 yrs old in Siberia, with the double spiral
> ? glyph found all over the Irish astronomical monuments dated by the
> ? establishment at 3,200 BC. There the glyph refers to the year's progress of
> ? the Sun, not the moon. This glyph is found in much later Malta tombs in a
> ? very abstract setting.
> ?
> ? Strange thing is that double spiral only makes sense at latitudes between
> ? the equator and the arctic circle, so what it was doing so far north is a
> ? mystery.
>
> Most of Siberia is between the equator and the arctic circle.
> In any case, it was populated largely by nomads, who may
> well have traveled across the arctic circle at some point.
> No big deal. Where exactly was it found?
I meant where the analemma has a figure 8, not simply a 0. At 18,000BP the Arctic
was dry, as a lot of water was locked up in glaciation.
Trying to find the reference to exactly where in Siberia...
>
>
> ? As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
>
> Around that timeframe IIRC. But they left plenty of
> bones and ivory behind. It may have been used long
> after the mammoth died.
Could the carving be dated seperately from the ivory?
Sverker Johansson
> Sverker Johansson wrote:
> > Brian O'Neill wrote:
> > ? Sverker Johansson wrote:
[snip]
Probably one could tell whether the carving was done
when the bone was fresh, or later - cutting scars
will look different.
But dating the cutting? No, not unless some dateable
material got stuck in the notches.
Brian O'Neill
Sverker Johansson wrote:
What about stone engraved with other stone tools? The accuracy of the huge neolithic
astronomical monument carvings (not on much later Stonehenge) shows a knowledge of
astronomy easily missed if one in impressed by the sheer size of the monuments. Some of
the large stones (over 10 tons) were slid into place using an oil-graphite mixture
which can be dated. Also wood under the stones can be dated. Human and animal bones
found in the tunnels are dated as later, which proves they were not build as tombs.
Some of the carved sundials and calendar stones outside could have been much older and
brought along to decorate the much newer improved "telescope".
Sverker Johansson
> Sverker Johansson wrote:
> > Brian O'Neill wrote:
[snip calendar]
> > > Could the carving be dated seperately from the ivory?
> >
> > Probably one could tell whether the carving was done
> > when the bone was fresh, or later - cutting scars
> > will look different.
> >
> > But dating the cutting? No, not unless some dateable
> > material got stuck in the notches.
>
> What about stone engraved with other stone tools?
Very very difficult. Dating of stone shards will give the date
when the stone was formed, not when it was used for carving.
> The accuracy of the huge neolithic
> astronomical monument carvings (not on much later Stonehenge) shows a knowledge of
> astronomy easily missed if one in impressed by the sheer size of the monuments. Some of
> the large stones (over 10 tons) were slid into place using an oil-graphite mixture
> which can be dated.
Careful with oil and graphite - if they're from petroleum or coal,
they'll date to whenever the coal seam or whatever was laid down,
possibly hundreds of millions of years ago. IOW, no useful C14
dates. Even a small admixture of carbon from fossil fuels will make
C14 dates look artificially old.
> Also wood under the stones can be dated.
This ought to work!
> Human and animal bones
> found in the tunnels are dated as later, which proves they were not build as tombs.
Or rather, proves that they were not built to house those
particular corpses.
> Some of the carved sundials and calendar stones outside could have been much older and
> brought along to decorate the much newer improved "telescope".
--
Brian O'Neill
Sverker Johansson wrote:
> Brian O'Neill wrote:
> > Sverker Johansson wrote:
> > > Brian O'Neill wrote:
>
> [snip calendar]
>
> > > > Could the carving be dated seperately from the ivory?
> > >
> > > Probably one could tell whether the carving was done
> > > when the bone was fresh, or later - cutting scars
> > > will look different.
> > >
> > > But dating the cutting? No, not unless some dateable
> > > material got stuck in the notches.
> >
> > What about stone engraved with other stone tools?
>
> Very very difficult. Dating of stone shards will give the date
> when the stone was formed, not when it was used for carving.
>
> > The accuracy of the huge neolithic
> > astronomical monument carvings (not on much later Stonehenge) shows a knowledge of
> > astronomy easily missed if one in impressed by the sheer size of the monuments. Some of
> > the large stones (over 10 tons) were slid into place using an oil-graphite mixture
> > which can be dated.
>
> Careful with oil and graphite - if they're from petroleum or coal,
> they'll date to whenever the coal seam or whatever was laid down,
> possibly hundreds of millions of years ago. IOW, no useful C14
> dates. Even a small admixture of carbon from fossil fuels will make
> C14 dates look artificially old.
It seems that the oil is not fossil-based, more likely animal or vegetable. As far as I know
no use was made of coal or petroleum in neolithic times. In N.America, surfacing petroleum
crude was used as a medicine (!).
>
>
> > Also wood under the stones can be dated.
>
> This ought to work!
>
> > Human and animal bones
> > found in the tunnels are dated as later, which proves they were not build as tombs.
>
> Or rather, proves that they were not built to house those
> particular corpses.
Well if the only evidence for a tomb conjecture is those bones, mostly animal...
The Celts arriving 600 BC had not the faintest clue what the 3,500 BC monuments were all
about, and proceeded to have ceremonies on top of them, lighting bonfires. They probably
thought they were handy tombs. Christians later simply stored food there. Today the official
archaeologist teams are repeating the Celtic tomb conjecture. I wonder when they will start
lighting fires on top?
Ken Cox
> Brian O'Neill wrote:
> > What about stone engraved with other stone tools?
> Very very difficult. Dating of stone shards will give the date
> when the stone was formed, not when it was used for carving.
Isn't there a technique for dating rock surfaces, that is, finding
the date when the rock was broken and the surface formed? Something
about tracks formed by radiation. I don't know if it would be of
any use in this case, since an engraving is pretty shallow.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
bho...@diespammers.telnet.humboldt1.com
> Brian O'Neill wrote:
>> As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
> Around that timeframe IIRC. But they left plenty of
> bones and ivory behind. It may have been used long
> after the mammoth died.
There were live mammoths in the north of Siberia as late as 4,000 B.P.
--
H. Brent Howatt |The deluded are always filled with absolutes
bho...@diespam.humboldt1.com |The rest of us have to live with ambiguity
PGP key by email or keyserver | _Aristoi_ Walter Jon Williams
=============================================================================
rich hammett
> Sverker Johansson <l...@hlk.no.hj.spam.se> wrote:
>> Brian O'Neill wrote:
>>> As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
>> Around that timeframe IIRC. But they left plenty of
>> bones and ivory behind. It may have been used long
>> after the mammoth died.
> There were live mammoths in the north of Siberia as late as 4,000 B.P.
Brent:
I got your question about tin on the tin list. Have you set
Cache NNTP overview files locally
to "ON" in your properties menu?
--
-remove no from mail name and spam from domain to reply
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ hnoa...@eng.spamauburn.edu
\ ..basketball [is] the paramount
/ synthesis in sport of intelligence, precision, courage,
\ audacity, anticipation, artifice, teamwork, elegance,
/ and grace. --Carl Sagan
bho...@diespammers.telnet.humboldt1.com
> bho...@diespammers.telnet.humboldt1.com is alleged to have said:
>> Sverker Johansson <l...@hlk.no.hj.spam.se> wrote:
>>> Brian O'Neill wrote:
>>>> As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
>>> Around that timeframe IIRC. But they left plenty of
>>> bones and ivory behind. It may have been used long
>>> after the mammoth died.
>> There were live mammoths in the north of Siberia as late as 4,000 B.P.
> Brent:
> I got your question about tin on the tin list. Have you set
> Cache NNTP overview files locally
> to "ON" in your properties menu?
I just did. We'll see what happens the next time I load.
bho...@diespammers.telnet.humboldt1.com
> rich hammett <hnoa...@eng.spamauburn.edu> wrote:
>> bho...@diespammers.telnet.humboldt1.com is alleged to have said:
>>> Sverker Johansson <l...@hlk.no.hj.spam.se> wrote:
>>>> Brian O'Neill wrote:
>>>>> As the ivory is mammoth tusk, when did they die out?
>>>> Around that timeframe IIRC. But they left plenty of
>>>> bones and ivory behind. It may have been used long
>>>> after the mammoth died.
>>> There were live mammoths in the north of Siberia as late as 4,000 B.P.
>> Brent:
>> I got your question about tin on the tin list. Have you set
>> Cache NNTP overview files locally
>> to "ON" in your properties menu?
> I just did. We'll see what happens the next time I load.
Wow! It worked like a champ. Dropped the load time from >20 mins. to <2.