Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?

[Anand Gupta]

Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

[James Beck]

On Jan 12, 12:47�am, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

Are there any vertebrates that do not have a blind spot?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-01-12 07:47:08 +0000, Anand Gupta said:

> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

I think that all vertebrate eyes that have been examined have the same
structure as the human eye, and so it would be very surprising if
chimpanzees didn't. To get an animal without a blind spot you need to
look further afield, for example at the octopus.

As for whether this would constitute a "definitive proof" you'd need to
ask Ray. I suspect he'd say no, but most of us would regard the
structure of the vertebrate eye as just one of a great many pieces of
evidence that the vertebrates evolved from a common ancestor. If it
were the ONLY piece of evidence we'd probably think it needed to be
explained in some way other than homology. But it isn't.


--
athel

[Burkhard]

On 12 Jan, 07:47, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?

Sure, all vertebrates have one

> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

Well, for science minded people, it is very strong evidence. For
creationists , it is just the result of a lazy designer who for some
inscrutable reasons stuck for some of his models with a flawed design
he came up with earlier - or possibly as many real life designers
would tell you, typical for what we find when a brilliant designer's
ideas were perverted, distorted and generally made worse by the idiots
in senior management, especially the beancounters in accounting,
(aka:" forces of evil" )

[Nashton]

On 13-01-12 6:58 AM, Burkhard wrote:
> On 12 Jan, 07:47, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
>
> Sure, all vertebrates have one
>
>> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?
>
> Well, for science minded people, it is very strong evidence. For

> creationists , it is just result of a lazy designer who for some

> inscrutable reasons stuck for some of his models with a flawed design

> he came up with earlier - theor possibly as many real life designers

> would tell you, typical for what we find when a brilliant designer's
> ideas were perverted, distorted and generally made worse by the idiots
> in senior management, especially the beancounters in accounting,
> (aka:" forces of evil" )

I am a firm believer that anyone ought to have the right to make a fool
of himself in a public forum.
>

[pakicetus]

On Friday, January 11, 2013 11:47:08 PM UTC-8, Anand Gupta wrote:
> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do? If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

Yes, every vertebrate eye does, unlike cephalopods.

[Bill]

On Jan 12, 7:02�pm, Nashton <n...@na.ca> wrote:

>
> I am a firm believer that anyone ought to have the right to make a fool
> of himself in a public forum.

Yes.

[J. J. Lodder J. J. Lodder]

Of course not.
Blind spots in every vertebrate
are part of the punishment for original sin.

Adam, being perfect in god's image, can't have had one,
or else it would follow that god himself must have had one.

Jan

[TomS]

"On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:58:49 +0100, in article
<1kwl6bi.lh...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, J. J. Lodder stated..."

Nice.

How about the adaptive immune system? Did Adam acquire resistance
to diseases before the Fall?


--
---Tom S.

[jillery]

You took the word right out of my mouth.

[Burkhard]

On 12 Jan, 12:58, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

> Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> > On 12 Jan, 07:47, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
>
> > Sure, all vertebrates have one
>
> > > If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?
>
> > Well, for science minded people, it is very strong evidence. For
> > creationists , it is just the result of a lazy designer who for some
> > inscrutable reasons stuck for some of his models with a flawed design
> > he came up with earlier �- or possibly as many real life designers
> > would tell you, typical for what we find when a brilliant designer's
> > ideas were perverted, distorted and generally made worse by the idiots
> > in senior management, especially the beancounters in accounting,
> > (aka:" forces of evil" )
>
> Of course not.

> Blind spots in every vertebrate
> are part of the punishment for original sin.
>

Yes. Just another word for "forces of evil", but it is no fun if one
has to explain it ;o)

[Harry K]

And you certainly practice what you preach.

Harry K

[wiki trix]

On Jan 12, 2:47�am, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

The visual system taken as a whole does not suffer as a result of this
"blind spot". The neural networks behind it compensate by means of
jitter integration and such.

[John S. Wilkins]

That too was retroengineered by God, regretfully.
--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
Honorary Fellow, University of Melbourne
- http://evolvingthoughts.net

[Kalkidas]

Did I just hear you claim that vertebrate evolution preceded
invertebrate evolution? You did say that the blind spot is "a flawed
design he came up with earlier". Was this a typo?

And if the design is so "flawed", how come vertebrates didn't die out
millions of years ago?

[wiki trix]

Nope. My guess is that the vertebrates and invertebrates were the
creations of two distinct gods. Never shared designs with each other
it seems.

> And if the design is so "flawed", how come vertebrates didn't die out
> millions of years ago?

The Intel CPU architecture is very flawed, how come it didn't die out
in the 1980s? Very bad, but not quite bad enough I guess.

[Mark Isaak]

And the cephalopods were not punished for Original Sin because there was
no sin in the eyes of Cthulhu.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[wiki trix]

On Jan 12, 6:56�pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@curioustax.onomy.net> wrote:
> On 1/12/13 4:20 AM, pakicetus wrote:
>
> > On Friday, January 11, 2013 11:47:08 PM UTC-8, Anand Gupta wrote:
> >> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do? If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?
>
> > Yes, every vertebrate eye does, unlike cephalopods.
>
> And the cephalopods were not punished for Original Sin because there was
> no sin in the eyes of Cthulhu.

Cthulhu? Nope. Tarvu is the one true cephalopod and the one true god.

[John S. Wilkins]

In the category of though they have eyes, they cannot see:

> >> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do? If they do is it
> >> not a definitive proof of evolution?
> >
> > Yes, every vertebrate eye does, unlike cephalopods.
>
> And the cephalopods were not punished for Original Sin because there was
> no sin in the eyes of Cthulhu.


--

[Burkhard]

Nope, a "mishearing" on your side. Vertebrates other than chimpanzees
came earlier than chimps and the question was about chimp's blind
spot. So at the very least, he stuck with that design from the first
vertebrate and reused it. Or he resued a design from the even
earlier invertebrate which then caused a blind spot in the newer
models, creationists tend to be shaky on the details. Does that make
sense? No, of course not, but we are talking ceationist ideas here.

>
> And if the design is so "flawed", how come vertebrates didn't die out
> millions of years ago?

Because not every flaw is so serious that it results in extinction?
Microsoft after all is also still around, it all depends on the
competition (or lack of it) and the environmental pressure.

[J. J. Lodder J. J. Lodder]

He really must have hated this job.
First designing perfect creatures,
and then spoiling them all because
someone took a bite out of an apple.

Like smashing up all Apples
and replacing them by Windoze boxes,
just to inflict pain on the users.

It just can't possibly be right,

Jan

--
"... aber Bosfaft ist er nicht" (A.Einstein)

[Steven L.]

On 1/12/2013 2:47 AM, Anand Gupta wrote:
> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

Creationists don't accept any form of indirect evidence as definitive proof.

They have made it clear that for proof, they won't accept anything less
than the appearance of a new genus right before their eyes. They want
to see some bizarre totally new species of creature crawl right out of
the laboratory.


--
Steven L.

[Friar Broccoli]

Note that since all known vertebrates (from people to deep sea sharks)
have the inverted retina (the reason for the blind spot) and no known
invertebrate (from molluscs [slugs to octopus] to arthropods [crabs to
insects]) has this characteristic; this is compelling evidence that all
vertebrates have a common ancestor with an inverted retina.

If a creationist tells you this is not good evidence for common descent,
then ask him to explain why the light into all vertebrate eyes must pass
through a layer of blood vessels and nerves before reaching the
photoreceptor layers?

Creationists will usually think you are making a bad design argument, so
it may take awhile before they understand you are making a common
descent argument.

--
Friar Broccoli (Robert Keith Elias), Quebec Canada
I consider ALL arguments in support of my views

[Friar Broccoli]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:47:08 -0800 (PST), Anand Gupta
<akgu...@gmail.com> wrote:

The blind spot is necessary because the retina is inverted so that all
incoming light must pass through the nerves and blood vessels on the
surface of the retina. Those nerves and vessels reach the surface
through the blind spot.

As most other posters have already mentioned it is a characteristic
shared by all known vertebrates (from people to deep sea sharks).

There is no known case of an invertebrate (including molluscs [slugs,
clams to octopus] or arthropods [crabs to insects]) with an inverted
retina.

This is compelling evidence that all vertebrates share a common
biological ancestor with an inverted retina. If a creationist insists
it is not compelling evidence ask him/her to provide an alternative
account that explains why all vertebrates share this characteristic.

This is my favorite argument, and to date, I haven't seen even one
creationist try to explain it.

If a creationist can explain it to you, please post that reply in this
group, because I would like to learn about it.

[TimR]

This one was interesting to me though probably too basic for any of you.

http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/avc/husband/avc4eye.htm

I think my dog has a foveal streak vs central area, based on how she rears up on hind legs to get a better look at prey.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<28b8d170-76b0-465f...@po6g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,

wiki trix <wiki...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Intel CPU architecture is very flawed, how come it didn't die out
> in the 1980s? Very bad, but not quite bad enough I guess.

With enough money cpu design flaws can be overcome. Windows ran on
x86; Windows took the PC market, therefore Intel had lots of money.
The latest versions of the x86 has a RISC processor that emulates the
x86 instructions.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[Friar Broccoli]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:00:10 -0800 (PST), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

>This one was interesting to me though probably too basic for any of you.
>
>http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/avc/husband/avc4eye.htm

Interesting enough that I saved the page. One thing that bothers me is
that they almost never indicate which side the light comes from. A
novice would certainly have thought the photoreceptors were on the light
rather than the back side.

>
>I think my dog has a foveal streak vs central area, based on how she rears up on hind legs to get a better look at prey.

Some predatory birds have two fovea. A cat's fovea is smeared
horizontally (which seems odd given the shape of the iris). Don't think
there's anything special about a dog's retina.

[John S. Wilkins]

Friar Broccoli <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:00:10 -0800 (PST), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >This one was interesting to me though probably too basic for any of you.
> >
> >http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/avc/husband/avc4eye.htm
>
> Interesting enough that I saved the page. One thing that bothers me is
> that they almost never indicate which side the light comes from. A
> novice would certainly have thought the photoreceptors were on the light
> rather than the back side.
>
> >
> >I think my dog has a foveal streak vs central area, based on how she
> >rears up on hind legs to get a better look at prey.
>
> Some predatory birds have two fovea. A cat's fovea is smeared
> horizontally (which seems odd given the shape of the iris). Don't think
> there's anything special about a dog's retina.

I read some time back that selection for short muzzle in some breeds
affects the developmental timing of the eye, so that they have a
vertically aligned retina, and thus less lateral vision. As a
consequence small short muzzle dogs are constantly in a state of
hyperanxiety with objects suddenly appearing in their restricted field
of vision.

[UC]

On Jan 12, 2:47�am, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?

No, but they love anal!

[MarkA]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:47:08 -0800, Anand Gupta wrote:

> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do? If they do is it not
> a definitive proof of evolution?

There's TONS of strong supporting evidence for evolution, but there will
never be "definitive proof". Other good evidence linking us to chimps is
the fusion of chimp chromosomes 2A and 2B into a single chromosome 2 in
humans, and the presence of a "broken" gene for producing Vitamin C shared
by humans, chimps, and other apes.

--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock

[eridanus]

El s�bado, 12 de enero de 2013 10:58:46 UTC, Burkhard escribi�:

> On 12 Jan, 07:47, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
>
>
>

> Sure, all vertebrates have one
>
>
>

> > If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?
>
>
>

> Well, for science minded people, it is very strong evidence. For
>
> creationists , it is just the result of a lazy designer who for some
>
> inscrutable reasons stuck for some of his models with a flawed design
>
> he came up with earlier - or possibly as many real life designers
>
> would tell you, typical for what we find when a brilliant designer's
>
> ideas were perverted, distorted and generally made worse by the idiots
>
> in senior management, especially the beancounters in accounting,
>
> (aka:" forces of evil" )

that one was very good.

eridanus

[eridanus]

El s�bado, 12 de enero de 2013 12:58:49 UTC, J. J. Lodder J. J. Lodder escribi�:

then Adam had not navel, and this tell us god has not navel either.
all the rest of people had to suffer the coarse of Adam and Eve, the
original sin, and were condemned to life with a navel. Then they
are imperfect copies of god.

Eridanus

[Nick Keighley]

On Jan 12, 10:54�pm, Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:58:46 -0800 (PST), Burkhard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> >On 12 Jan, 07:47, Anand Gupta <akgupt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Do chimpanzees have blind spot in eye like human do?
>
> >Sure, all vertebrates have one
>
> >> If they do is it not a definitive proof of evolution?
>
> >Well, for science minded people, it is very strong evidence. For
> >creationists , it is just the result of a lazy designer who for some
> >inscrutable reasons stuck for some of his models with a flawed design
> >he came up with earlier �- or possibly as many real life designers
> >would tell you, typical for what we find when a brilliant designer's
> >ideas were perverted, distorted and generally made worse by the idiots
> >in senior management, especially the beancounters in accounting,
> >(aka:" forces of evil" )
>
> Did I just hear you claim that vertebrate evolution preceded
> invertebrate evolution?

no.

> You did say that the blind spot is "a flawed
> design he came up with earlier". Was this a typo?

early vertebrates had a blind spot. Are you claiming any particular
order for creationism?

> And if the design is so "flawed", how come vertebrates didn't die out
> millions of years ago?

because being a vertebrate has lots of advantages. How many molluscs
the size of elephants have you seen on dry land?

unlike creationism evolution isn't expected to produce perfection

[Nick Keighley]

which has a cost.