Human genes vs meat, cereal food.
neo
2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
animal.
3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
meat in vast area.
4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
vegetarian.
5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
of all deseases.
Martin Andersen
Woland
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
Kind of true, however some people subscribe to a kind of endurance
hunting technique that involves chasing prey until it gets tired and
then killing it.
> 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
> animal.
Truish
> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> meat in vast area.
"hey, me am wonder why all of those birds circle that area over
there in sky. Me go see."
> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> vegetarian.
Horseshit. Neanderthals were primarily meat eaters.
> 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
It's difficult to tell when exactly that technology arose as organic
stuff like wood rarely shows up at sites, the atlatl was in use before
the bow and arrow though. You ever here of those cave paintings that
show spears and stuff sticking out of animals?
> 6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
Horseshit.
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
Me no think so.
Rich Townsend
Points 1, 2, 3 apply to chimpanzees. Chimpanzees eat meat (monkeys). Thus, your
narrative falls down.
I think a better argument for not eating meat comes from land-usage arguments.
Per acre of land used to provide food, vegetarians have a much smaller footprint
than omnivores or carnivores.
Of course, as you've amply demonstrated, this doesn't mean that vegetarians
can't be idiots.
cheers,
Rich
Jim
Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>
> 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
> animal.
Well, no, but humans DID have killer rocks, shaped into points or
edges, so when the hunting party eventually caught up with the
exhausted prey, they could dispatch it with no trouble...
Humans also probably had pointy sticks.
>
> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> meat in vast area.
Well, here is where things begin to go even more egg-shaped for you.
Since it seems eminently plausible to me that members of the genus
Homo could in fact hunt effectively, particularly in small bands, your
point here is irrelevant.
>
> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> vegetarian.
>
Follows from false premises. Further, you ignore the ancient and
noble art of trapping (pits, deadfalls, snares, etc.) and fishing
(particularly trapping), and getting bugs and grubs and things that we
shun but are fine animal protein.
> 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
What about other projectile weapons like spear-throwers, or slings?
Heck, what about spears? I seem to recall tales of boar hunting that
came down to a mess of beaters chasing a wild boar into a killing
ground where irate pig meets guy with a spear. No projectile
technology there, and the technique would work for most any mid-sized
critter.
>
> 6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
Unsupported by evidence, as far as I know. In fact, aren't there
artifacts of carnivory like cracked marrow bones in habitation sites
going way back to H. habilis at least?
>
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
Two things here: where did cereal grains get into this discussion? Do
you argue that man couldn't gather cereal grains until the invention
of the bow? Second, wouldn't obligatory vegetarians have different
tooth structure, and wouldn't that show up as a major change in
fossils? Third, what about known causes of disease like viruses and
bacteria?
Nice try, but no cigar.
Dan Luke
"neo" <MAT...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
True but irrelevant. Stone age people were/are quite efficient hunters using
other tactics.
> 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
> animal.
Man doesn't need them to kill prey.
> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> meat in vast area.
Ever seen vultures circling?
> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> vegetarian.
Nonsense. Neither are our cousins, the chimpanzees.
> 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
Even if this is true (I'm too lazy to check), other quite efective weapons
were in use far longer ago.
> 6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
Clearly false.
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
Bollocks. Cattle raising is tremendously destructive to the environment and
should be curtailed for that reason, but humans are quite well suited to
eating meat.
--
Dan
"Dragged forward by cold science, which doesn't care what we think or believe
or wish for, we are headed into some interesting times."
- John Derbyshire
Tiny Bulcher
> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
Why is everyone thinking of chasing big game here? What's wrong with the
good ol' deadfall trap?
er...@swva.net
In Appalachia people still occasionally hunt rabbits with a long,
slender stick bearing a small Y-fork at the end. They drive the
rabbits on foot. The rabbit tends to wait until the hunter is close
before bolting; by that time he is in range of the stick which, with
a slight twist, catches in his fur and he is pinned to the ground. A
poor person could feed his family by doing this for an hour or two a
day. Somewhere on the internet is a video of a 1990 Alan Lomax
documentary towards the end of which they show people doing this in
north Georgia.
Eric Root
Dana Tweedy
"neo" <MAT...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176663774....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
That depends on the animal. They'd be more than fast enough to chase
turtles, snails, and many small mammals. Also, humans can out last many
prey animals in a long chase, especally if the animal is wounded by a spear,
or an arrow.
>
> 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
> animal.
But humans do have the ability to make weapons.
>
> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> being.
But it's not "stupid" to think that a band of humans could drive off a
predator from a kill, or that the predator would become full, and leave
uneaten food.
> And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> meat in vast area.
Humans can't smell? Humans can't notice vultures, or other scavengers?
>
> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> vegetarian.
No, that's not a reasonable assumption.
>
> 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
Evidence for this assertion? Stone points have been found that are older
than that.
>
> 6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
Again, not a well supported assertion.
>
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
I would think that viruses and bacteria are the cause of the vast majority
of human diseases. Modern human's diet is likely to be the cause of some
of our problems, such as obesity, and maybe some auto-immune diseases, but
not all of them.
DJT
Tony Raymonds
Woland <jerr...@gmail.com> writes
>Kind of true, however some people subscribe to a kind of endurance
>hunting technique that involves chasing prey until it gets tired and
>then killing it.
When I was about 12 my friends and I caught a wild rabbit like this, it
had been snowing the night before and we followed it's tracks in the
snow until finally we caught a very exhausted bunny.
We let it go again, but it shows how much endurance we had compared to
the rabbit even though it was many times faster in the short run. It
took about 30 minutes and we weren't even breathing hard.
Before someone asks, no I don't know why it didn't head for it's burrow.
Maybe there wasn't one nearby, or maybe we cut off the route to a hole
by accident.
--
to...@wacky.zzn.com
chris.li...@gmail.com
Have you ever been hit- I mean really hit- with a thrown rock?
Chris
Desertphile
This is all bloody stupid. All the other apes, not just humans,
eat meat in their natural habitats: so do monkeys and chimpanzees
if and when they can get it. Meat is so highly prized in chimp
society that it is used to acquire political and sexual favortism.
"Stone ahe man" ate meat pretty much constantly, and left his
teeth marks and marks from his stone weapons on the bones of many
animals.
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
prospero33
There is a good deal of evidence that early hominids were scavengers,
breaking the bones left by predators for the marrow and also
collecting the uneaten meat scraps. That, and trapping small animals,
fishing, and eating grubs and insects made them omnivores who ate meat
as an important part of their diet.
Bodega
[excerpts]
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
So you really think that Homo sapiens is the slowest-moving creature
on earth?
> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> vegetarian.
So you're saying all the ancient stone blades that have been found
were used for making Caesar salad?
Dan Luke
"nmp" wrote:
>
> If we would eat the soy and corn and such ourselves we would need much
> less of it than we need now, we could probably produce it ourselves in
> our own country, and we would still have room to raise some pigs and cows
> and sheep et cetera for the occasional meat on our plates.
Agree completely. Practically everyone eating meat every day is as absurd and
wasteful as practically everyone driving his own car every day.
--
Dan
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
- Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Kermit
Kermit
Grrr. Sorry for the empty post ...my finger twitched.
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
When I was in the National Guard (militia) I saw a fellow soldier pick
up a rock, kill a rabbit by tossing it, then he skinned and ate it for
supper.
And we can run down most any big prey animal, given a day or two.
>
> 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
> animal.
We are the only ape without fighting canines. That's because we have
been killing prey (and each other) with weapons for so long that our
teeth evolved to be best for eating only, rather than the dual purpose
they must serve for other apes.
>
> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> meat in vast area.
As others have said, if you're hungry enough, you'll start paying
attention to vultures.
>
> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> vegetarian.
Nope. Early modern humans and our immediate predecessors ate fruit,
vegetables, and very lean meat. We also walked and ran a *lot. And
sometimes hung onto the dull end of a sharp stick while a cantankerous
zebra complained on the other end.
>
> 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
More or less, yup.
>
> 6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
No, but we may have started eating a little more of it.
>
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
We are not used to fat farm animals. Our ancestors never ate milk
after weaning; that's a recent development, that would only be
possible for farmers with domestic food animals. We never ate grains
to any significant degree - what hunter gatherer would spend all that
time picking off grass seeds (which aren't very digestible as is) and
then grind them, and cook them?
If you want to be reasonably safe from modern diseases:
1. Exercise *vigorously 5-10 hours a week, minimum.
2. Eat only very lean meat - preferably wild (fish is good). No
cheesburgers.
3. Eat whole fruit (minus seeds), and vegetables, raw or cooked. No
potatos (high glycemic index).
4. Minimize consumption of grains, and eat only whole grains when you
do.
5. Avoid modern poisons like cigarettes.
6. I don't know about milk. Some of us can drink it without digestive
upset, but we did not evolve drinking it as adults, except some of us
for the last 10 years or so. I drink non-fat milk and milk products,
but little cheese.
This is possible, but you'll be fighting modern culture all the way.
Kermit
chris.li...@gmail.com
> On Apr 15, 12:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [excerpts]
>
> > 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> So you really think that Homo sapiens is the slowest-moving creature
> on earth?
And that in an age before smoking, before obesity, but after living a
life that would makes most of today's "workouts" a garden party.
Every one of those prehistoric sons and mothers was a marathon runner
and decathalon champion, by our standards.
Chris
Desertphile
Also snares and scavenged carcasses.
In September of 1823, Hugh Glass was mauled by a Grizzly Bear and
had, among other wounds, his ears bit off. One of his companions
sewed his ears back on, and then the two men paid to stay by him
and care for him left him to die. With his gaping neck wound, they
expected him to die within a very short time of leaving him.
Glass crawled on his elbows and stomach through the forests and
desolate wastelands, through the swamps and brush, trying to cross
half the width of South Dakota to what passed for "safety" at the
time and place: Fort Kiowa.
He came across a buffalo calf that had been wounded by a pack of
wolves. Nearly naked and with only his shaving razor, he managed
to strike up a fire and set fire to the grass, driving the wolves
away--- and he claimed the dead calf for himself (which saved his
life). The meat and fat allowed him to walk damn near all the way
to Fort Kiowa before a group of Sioux found him and carried him to
the fort.
"Stone age man" could and I suspect did set fires to drive animals
over cliffs; I cannot see why "neo" would believe they did not eat
meat when it was available.
Desertphile
It is also still done on Denetah (the Navaho Reservation). Sticks
pushed into the ground are used to funnel rabbits into a pen
around November; the rabbits are driven into the trap, killed and
de-skinned and hung up under the south-side hogan wall, where they
freeze. Frank Yellow Horse, who used to be a member of the tribal
council, hunted rabbits this way.
In the "good old days" the Navajos used to take down a frozen
rabbit and bring it inside to thaw. When it was thawed they would
hammer it with a rock to break up the bones, then cook and eat the
whole thing bones and all. These days, of course, they just go to
McDonald's or Kuntucky Fried Chicken.
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by "neo" <MAT...@gmail.com>:
>1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
Probably incorrect. Since native Americans (and other
hunter-gatherers) were able to run down prey, it's probable
that the fully-modern Paleolithic humans had the same
ability.
>2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
>animal.
True, for at least the past 2My.
>3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
>being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
>meat in vast area.
Scavengers seem to manage this; why should man be excluded?
>4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
>vegetarian.
Wrong by observation.
>5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
Probably reasonably close; OK.
>6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
Wrong by observation.
>7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
>of all deseases.
Wrong again; we're omnivorous by dentition, gastrointestinal
tract and observed history.
I think you lose.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Desertphile
<unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 12:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Grrr. Sorry for the empty post ...my finger twitched.
>
> > 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> When I was in the National Guard (militia) I saw a fellow soldier pick
> up a rock, kill a rabbit by tossing it, then he skinned and ate it for
> supper.
>
> And we can run down most any big prey animal, given a day or two.
Also:
o) North America and the Giant Sloth.
o) New Zealand and the Moa.
Lots of meat to be had--- just walk up with a club. I cannot
imagine what "neo" was thinking.
> > 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
> > animal.
> We are the only ape without fighting canines. That's because we have
> been killing prey (and each other) with weapons for so long that our
> teeth evolved to be best for eating only, rather than the dual purpose
> they must serve for other apes.
Only now and then some people do crow canines: they also tend to
get them either pulled or filed down and capped.
> > 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> > being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> > meat in vast area.
> As others have said, if you're hungry enough, you'll start paying
> attention to vultures.
And each other: Ray's canibals (from "Canaan" ROTFL!) being
another example of humans eating meat.
> > 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
> > vegetarian.
> Nope. Early modern humans and our immediate predecessors ate fruit,
> vegetables, and very lean meat. We also walked and ran a *lot. And
> sometimes hung onto the dull end of a sharp stick while a cantankerous
> zebra complained on the other end.
And *POOF!* rodeo was invented. Yeeee hawww!
> > 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25,000 years ago.
> More or less, yup.
When was the atlatl invented? Upper Paleolithic (late Solutrean,
ca. 18,000-16,000 BCE) according to Wikipedia.
mev...@gcfn.org
I have also heard of hunting critters like groundhogs with a club.
You use a green length of branch about a yard long (green wood is
heavier). Just whistle when you see a groundhog with in range. They
will usually stand up, making a better target. The trick is to throw
the stick horizontally. It makes hitting the target more likely. A
successful throw will stun the target if not kill it outright. And
there are a lot of groundhogs out there.
Mark Evans
er...@swva.net
Sounds like a primitive boomerang.
Eric Root
John Wilkins
> On Apr 15, 10:09 pm, mev...@gcfn.org wrote:
...
> > I have also heard of hunting critters like groundhogs with a club.
> > You use a green length of branch about a yard long (green wood is
> > heavier). Just whistle when you see a groundhog with in range. They
> > will usually stand up, making a better target. The trick is to throw
> > the stick horizontally. It makes hitting the target more likely. A
> > successful throw will stun the target if not kill it outright. And
> > there are a lot of groundhogs out there.
> >
> > Mark Evans
>
>
> Sounds like a primitive boomerang.
>
Of what use is half a boomerang?
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
Walter Bushell
j.wil...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
> <er...@swva.net> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 15, 10:09 pm, mev...@gcfn.org wrote:
> ...
> > > I have also heard of hunting critters like groundhogs with a club.
> > > You use a green length of branch about a yard long (green wood is
> > > heavier). Just whistle when you see a groundhog with in range. They
> > > will usually stand up, making a better target. The trick is to throw
> > > the stick horizontally. It makes hitting the target more likely. A
> > > successful throw will stun the target if not kill it outright. And
> > > there are a lot of groundhogs out there.
> > >
> > > Mark Evans
> >
> >
> > Sounds like a primitive boomerang.
> >
> Of what use is half a boomerang?
Wait, it'll come back to you.
John Wilkins
Shane
> <er...@swva.net> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 15, 10:09 pm, mev...@gcfn.org wrote:
> ...
>>> I have also heard of hunting critters like groundhogs with a club.
>>> You use a green length of branch about a yard long (green wood is
>>> heavier). Just whistle when you see a groundhog with in range. They
>>> will usually stand up, making a better target. The trick is to throw
>>> the stick horizontally. It makes hitting the target more likely. A
>>> successful throw will stun the target if not kill it outright. And
>>> there are a lot of groundhogs out there.
>>>
>>> Mark Evans
>>
>> Sounds like a primitive boomerang.
>>
> Of what use is half a boomerang?
Either half makes a good noise.
Bodega
[excerpts]
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
When predators chase a herd of grazers, they look for those that run
the slowest. Humans and their ancestors could clearly catch very
young critters with short legs, and the older critters on their last
legs.
>
> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
> being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
> meat in vast area.
You're saying it is stupid to think that lions would leave part of
their kill for, say, hyenas.
And, in your reading, I guess you've never heard about the vast bufflo
heards that covered vast areas of North America.
>
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
What is your little thingie obsession with "cereal food"? Is it loaded
with cholesterol? Are eaters of seven-grain bread poisoning
themselves?
Not sure what diet you're pushing, but there weren't a lot of peach
pits and cherry stems and orange rinds, or whatever is on your
preferred menu, among the people of the far north, who somehow
survived on protein despite the utterly miserable conditions.
J.J. O'Shea
(in article <1176666499.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>):
> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
I'll take that bet, so long as I can specify that the non-human be a dog or a
wolf.
Otherwise, you've got it. Horses, antelope, bison... they can all outrun
humans over short distances. Over long distances, humans will win. Slow and
steady does, indeed, win the race. Humans + dogs will win the race faster.
>
>
>>
>> 2. Man didn't have killer teeths or nails like tiger to kill some
>> animal.
>
> Well, no, but humans DID have killer rocks, shaped into points or
> edges, so when the hunting party eventually caught up with the
> exhausted prey, they could dispatch it with no trouble...
> Humans also probably had pointy sticks.
They didn't need the points. Blunt force works, too.
>
>>
>> 3. It is stupid to think that some animal will leave meat for human
>> being. And it is even more stupid to think that man will find leftout
>> meat in vast area.
>
> Well, here is where things begin to go even more egg-shaped for you.
> Since it seems eminently plausible to me that members of the genus
> Homo could in fact hunt effectively, particularly in small bands, your
> point here is irrelevant.
And, besides, it appears that many species of genus Homo (including H.
sapiens and H. neandertal) were, if not the top predator in any area they
lived, at least one of the top three. And, yes, I include the big cats and
the bears in that. Man-eating big cats are notorious because they're
_rare_... and usually don't live long. Their prey organises and kills 'em.
It's considerably more difficult to kill large bears than large cats, but
humans managed that, too, with paleolithic weapons. Once they got metal
weapons, bears learned to stay clear, or didn't live long enough to learn
anything else.
>
>>
>> 4. So before invention of weapons like bow-arrow, man was pure
>> vegetarian.
>>
>
> Follows from false premises. Further, you ignore the ancient and
> noble art of trapping (pits, deadfalls, snares, etc.) and fishing
> (particularly trapping), and getting bugs and grubs and things that we
> shun but are fine animal protein.
AOL.
>
>> 5. Bow-arrow was invented by man just 25000 years ago.
>
> What about other projectile weapons like spear-throwers, or slings?
> Heck, what about spears? I seem to recall tales of boar hunting that
> came down to a mess of beaters chasing a wild boar into a killing
> ground where irate pig meets guy with a spear. No projectile
> technology there, and the technique would work for most any mid-sized
> critter.
Dead-falls work better for this. I seem to recall Ted Holden saying something
about 'primitive' man not being able to hunt mammoths. He became quite
abusive when it was pointed out that neolithic technology was quite up to
killing elephants, and that this was known for an absolute fact as such kills
had been observed.
>
>>
>> 6. So man began to eat meat just 25000 years ago.
>
> Unsupported by evidence, as far as I know. In fact, aren't there
> artifacts of carnivory like cracked marrow bones in habitation sites
> going way back to H. habilis at least?
_Chimps_ have been observed catching, and killing, assorted animals, not
least being small monkeys.
>
>>
>> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
>> of all deseases.
>
> Two things here: where did cereal grains get into this discussion? Do
> you argue that man couldn't gather cereal grains until the invention
> of the bow? Second, wouldn't obligatory vegetarians have different
> tooth structure, and wouldn't that show up as a major change in
> fossils? Third, what about known causes of disease like viruses and
> bacteria?
All good questions.
>
> Nice try, but no cigar.
>
--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.
dkomo
> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
>
> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>
Umm, I'm skeptical. When I go jogging I see other joggers out with
their dogs. Even though the jogger may be moving fairly fast for a
human, the dog seems to expend little effort keeping up. The dog
maintains a relaxed lope, and I wouldn't be surprised if it could do
this for 26 miles. There's a lot of advantage in having four legs. I
doubt that even the best marathoners could beat particular breeds of
dogs over 26 miles.
r norman
wrote:
"All these anatomical features make humans surprisingly good runners.
Over long distances, we can outrun our dogs and give many horses a
good race," says Daniel Lieberman, a runner, dog owner, and professor
of anthropology at Harvard's Peabody Museum. "What these features and
fossils appear to be telling us is that endurance running evolved in
order for our direct ancestors to compete with other carnivores for
the protein needed to grow big brains."
....
"We can't beat most animals in a sprint, but we best many of them in
endurance running. I can easily outpace my dog on a long run."
Antelopes and cheetahs sprint as fast as 65 miles an hour but not for
very long. There are reports of African and Native American hunters
who could run their prey to exhaustion, a feat of little use after the
appearance of spears and bows and arrows.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/11.18/01-running.html
See the paper
Bramble DM, Lieberman DE.
Endurance running and the evolution of Homo.
Nature. 2004 Nov 18;432(7015):345-52.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v432/n7015/abs/nature03052.html
Jim
OK, I'll give you dogs, particularly in cooler climates, and I owe
both you and J.J, some quatloos. (Does anyone have any data on this,
anecdotal or otherwise?) Just thinking about it though, I wonder if
that canid endurance was a major factor in their domestication - that
wolves were domesticated rather than, say, bobcats because they could
keep up with an endurance hunt.
Cory Albrecht
> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> of all deseases.
There are nine amino acids that human bodies cannot create from base
chemicals. Now in a globalized economy where I can get plants from all
over the world it is possible for me to be a strict vegetarian and get
all nine essential amino acids.
But imagine a primitive hunter-gatherer. They can't get vegetables from
all over the planet, thus they have to eat meat now and again to make
sure they don't suffer from a protein deficiency disease like
kwashiorkor. Meat is also the best/easiest source for sulfur and iron.
Primitive agriculturalists were even _more_ likely to suffer nutritional
deficiency disease because of dependence a small handful of crops so in
addition to protein deficiency they now also risk diseases like scurvy
and other (plant-based) vitamin deficiencies.
Go check out the archaeological literature, you'll find that you'll that
hunter-gatherers, based on skeletons, were taller, heavier and healthier
than their farmer cousins in the same area.
Sorry, neo, but all the biological evidence says that we humans are
omnivores, not vegetarians.
WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> Two things here: where did cereal grains get into this discussion?
You should see the huge corn stalk I have mounted over my fireplace.
I tracked that wiley bastard for hours before taking him down with my
compound bow.
WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> _Chimps_ have been observed catching, and killing, assorted animals, not
> least being small monkeys.
Not to mention killing and *devouring* other chimps from rival troups.
Cory Albrecht
> I'm not a vegetarian (and I never will be, I don't think it's natural and
> I *like* meat) but I have become convinced that we are not doing the
> right thing as humans. So I eat "vegetarian" most days of the week, I eat
> fish at least one or two days a week, and meat on the remaining days. I
> could probably do better still.
Relative to North Americans, the modern primitive hunter-gather tribes
we know of eat something like one-fourth to one-eight the meat that we
do, and, from what I've read, it's thought that that's probably slightly
higher (but not by much) than what our species evolved with/for.
The funniest thing I find about agriculture is how much _work_ it was
for those first farmers. I remember watching a nature show where they
interviewed a man from an African h-g tribe (Kalahari Bushman? dunno),
and they asked him why him and his people didn't take up agriculture? He
immediately burst into laughter and asks "Why would I want to do that
much work?" A hunter-gatherer "works" about 3 hours a day, on average. :-)
WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> It is also still done on Denetah (the Navaho Reservation). Sticks
> pushed into the ground are used to funnel rabbits into a pen
> around November; the rabbits are driven into the trap, killed and
> de-skinned and hung up under the south-side hogan wall, where they
> freeze. Frank Yellow Horse, who used to be a member of the tribal
> council, hunted rabbits this way.
>
> In the "good old days" the Navajos used to take down a frozen
> rabbit and bring it inside to thaw. When it was thawed they would
> hammer it with a rock to break up the bones, then cook and eat the
> whole thing bones and all. These days, of course, they just go to
> McDonald's or Kuntucky Fried Chicken.
Which is a damned shame, considering that rabbit is just as tasty, and
lower in fat. My son and I frequent some local public hunting land
that provides us with a rabbit and/or a squirrel or two every week or
so.
What's really funny are the looks I get when I bring some of my wild
game left-overs to the office for lunch. It's amazing how squeamish
we've become in this country in such a short period of time regarding
things that were common table fare not long ago and are, in general,
more nutritious than most of the commercially raised beef, pork and
foul that these same regard as "normal" food.
WuzYoungOnceToo
<chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you ever been hit- I mean really hit- with a thrown rock?
I would venture a guess that a hard object impacting his cranium at a
relatively high velocity was largely responsible for his post in the
first place..
JohnN
wrote:
Stalking the Wild Asparagus by Evell Gibbons.
JohnN
Ernest Major
<dkom...@comcast.net> writes
fit humans as long distance runners. A middling good (middle-aged)
marathoner can do a marathon in 3 hours, which is a pace of under 7
minutes per mile, which is rather faster than jogging pace. Humans are
better at losing heat than dogs (which are restricted to panting) and
humans can (depending on weather conditions) push dogs into heat
exhaustion.
The champions are pronghorn antelopes, which are ridiculously fast and
have ridiculous amounts of stamina. (Perhaps to escape from American
cheetahs on the one hand, and short-faced bears on the other.)
>
> --dk...@cris.com
>
>
--
alias Ernest Major
Windy
> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> animal.
>
> human being. And it is even more stupid to think that man
> will find leftout meat in vast area.
Maybe they had takeout.
-- w.
John Bode
[snip]
> >> 7. And as our genes are not used to meat and cereal food, it is cause
> >> of all deseases.
>
> > Two things here: where did cereal grains get into this discussion? Do
> > you argue that man couldn't gather cereal grains until the invention
> > of the bow? Second, wouldn't obligatory vegetarians have different
> > tooth structure, and wouldn't that show up as a major change in
> > fossils? Third, what about known causes of disease like viruses and
> > bacteria?
>
> All good questions.
>
IIRC, the explanation for the massive molars in robust
australopithecines was a diet of roots and nuts and other hard, chewy
vegetable material.
Bob Casanova
in talk.origins, posted by j.wil...@uq.edu.au (John
Wilkins):
><er...@swva.net> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 15, 10:09 pm, mev...@gcfn.org wrote:
>...
>> > I have also heard of hunting critters like groundhogs with a club.
>> > You use a green length of branch about a yard long (green wood is
>> > heavier). Just whistle when you see a groundhog with in range. They
>> > will usually stand up, making a better target. The trick is to throw
>> > the stick horizontally. It makes hitting the target more likely. A
>> > successful throw will stun the target if not kill it outright. And
>> > there are a lot of groundhogs out there.
>> >
>> > Mark Evans
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a primitive boomerang.
>>
>Of what use is half a boomerang?
The boom half or the rang half?
Ferrous Patella
> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
My money would be on Canis lupis. What odds do I get?
However the simular hunting style undoubtably influenced our "co-
evolution".
--
"Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever."
Annual English Teachers' awards for best student
metaphors/analogies found in actual student papers
Desertphile
<wuzyoun...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah, it makes no sense if looked at rationally--- look at the
people who will not eat moose, elk, deer, or buffalo. Foods are
part of cultural identities.
WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> Yeah, it makes no sense if looked at rationally--- look at the
> people who will not eat moose, elk, deer, or buffalo. Foods are
> part of cultural identities.
Oh, man. There's nothing like a big bowl of buffalo (N.A. bison,
actually) stew. Delicious.
Desertphile
<wuzyoun...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I will just have to take your word for it. :-)
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Buffy has super strength; why don't we just load her up
like one of those little horses?" -- Anya
WuzYoungOnceToo
> On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:58 -0700, WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> > actually) stew. Delicious.
>
> I will just have to take your word for it. :-)
You might choose to do so, but there's no reason you "have" to. Bison
meat isn't that difficult to come by if you live in any sort of
metropolitan area. And of course, there's always the internet.
Kermit
wrote:
I live in a small metropolitan area of about 100,000 people in the
Columbia Basin. Our local grocery store routinely carries bison meat.
Kermit,
who herds domestic peppers and tomatoes.
Desertphile
<wuzyoun...@yahoo.com> wrote:
For the past 30 years I have been vegetarian (which may be why I'm
fat and very ugly. Hummm.... gotta think about that some day).
Here on the Rez one may buy sheepburgers and goatburgers. Fuzzy
adorable sheep and goats, I bet.
WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> For the past 30 years I have been vegetarian (which may be why I'm
> fat and very ugly. Hummm.... gotta think about that some day).
>
> Here on the Rez one may buy sheepburgers and goatburgers. Fuzzy
> adorable sheep and goats, I bet.
I had curried goat for lunch yesterday. Very similar to bison in both
flavor and texture, interestingly enough.
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by Ferrous Patella
<mail1...@pop.net>:
>news:1176666499.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com by Jim:
>
>> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>>
>> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
>> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
>> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
>> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
>> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
>> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
>> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
>> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
>> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>
>My money would be on Canis lupis. What odds do I get?
Do I get to pick the course? How about the African savannah
in summer? ;-)
>However the simular hunting style undoubtably influenced our "co-
>evolution".
Probably; it's certain that we've been together quite a
while.
Free Lunch
Ferrous Patella <mail1...@pop.net> wrote in
<Xns99149CC2329BB...@130.81.64.196>:
>news:1176666499.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com by Jim:
>
>> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>>
>> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
>> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
>> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
>> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
>> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
>> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
>> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
>> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
>> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>
>My money would be on Canis lupis. What odds do I get?
Odds on. 1-5 or so.
>However the simular hunting style undoubtably influenced our "co-
>evolution".
There was a good article in today's Wall Street Journal about the
advantages of using a dog as your workout partner
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117676286816871833-search.html?> for
those with accounts.
"After decades of jogging with friends, colleagues and loved ones, I've
come to see that the ideal running mate is a dog. She is not
competitive. Your fastest speed is nothing next to hers, so you will
never run too fast for her. But neither will she whine about, let alone
ridicule, your slowness. The only time she will complain is when you
don't run at all, and that type of push is what personal trainers charge
money for."
Ferrous Patella
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:26:00 GMT, the following appeared in
> talk.origins, posted by Ferrous Patella
> <mail1...@pop.net>:
>
>>news:1176666499.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com by Jim:
>>
>>> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>>>
>>> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
>>> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
>>> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
>>> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
>>> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
>>> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
>>> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
>>> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
>>> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>>
>>My money would be on Canis lupis. What odds do I get?
>
> Do I get to pick the course? How about the African savannah
> in summer? ;-)
Do I get to include Canis lupus familiaris? Maybe a Rhodesian Ridgeback,
those guys take on lions after (ahem) dogging them for miles.
Kermit
> news:trua23pc6pbfmb5h2...@4ax.comby Bob Casanova:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:26:00 GMT, the following appeared in
> > talk.origins, posted by Ferrous Patella
>
> >>news:1176666499.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.comby Jim:
>
> >>> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>
> >>> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
> >>> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
> >>> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
> >>> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
> >>> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
> >>> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
> >>> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
> >>> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
> >>> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>
> >>My money would be on Canis lupis. What odds do I get?
>
> > Do I get to pick the course? How about the African savannah
> > in summer? ;-)
>
> Do I get to include Canis lupus familiaris? Maybe a Rhodesian Ridgeback,
> those guys take on lions after (ahem) dogging them for miles.
>
Do I get to choose the representative for H. Sap Sap? If so, I
nominate this fella:
http://www.mastermediaspeakers.com/deankarnazes/index.html
I used to (slowly!) run 10 miles at a time, but that was thirty years
and thirty pounds ago. I doubt if I could do more than three miles
now. My wife has been hounding me to get out and do more, and I'm
feeling a little harried.
> --
> "Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever."
> Annual English Teachers' awards for best student
> metaphors/analogies found in actual student papers
Curmutt
skyeyes
Buffalo chili is to *die* for. Yum.....
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
skyeyes
> On 17 Apr 2007 10:47:14 -0700, WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> > On Apr 17, 12:00 pm, Desertphile <desertph...@nospam.org> wrote:
> > > On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:58 -0700, WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> > > > Oh, man. There's nothing like a big bowl of buffalo (N.A. bison,
> > > > actually) stew. Delicious.
>
> > > I will just have to take your word for it. :-)
> > You might choose to do so, but there's no reason you "have" to. Bison
> > meat isn't that difficult to come by if you live in any sort of
> > metropolitan area. And of course, there's always the internet.
>
> For the past 30 years I have been vegetarian (which may be why I'm
> fat and very ugly. Hummm.... gotta think about that some day).
>
> Here on the Rez one may buy sheepburgers and goatburgers. Fuzzy
> adorable sheep and goats, I bet.
<Perks hopefully> Any mutton stew??? Barbequed baby goat??? With
fry bread???
What time's dinner?
Bob Casanova
>news:trua23pc6pbfmb5h2...@4ax.com by Bob Casanova:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:26:00 GMT, the following appeared in
>> talk.origins, posted by Ferrous Patella
>> <mail1...@pop.net>:
>>
>>>news:1176666499.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com by Jim:
>>>
>>>> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, "neo" <MATR...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 1. In stone age man was not fast enough to chase animals.
>>>>
>>>> Not fast enough to catch one in a short chase, perhaps, but humans are
>>>> one of the best long-distance runners on the planet - lots of sweat
>>>> glands and no pesky fur so we can keep cool during exertion, long
>>>> legs, etc. Consider this: pick your favorite non-human runner and put
>>>> it up against a middling good marathoner - I'm willing to bet that the
>>>> human overtakes the non-human at least once in the 26 mile distance -
>>>> and if the non-human is forced to stay ahead of the human, I'm willing
>>>> to bet that it collapses from heat exhaustion before it finishes. If
>>>> the non-human runner is aged or ill, I'll even give you odds.
>>>
>>>My money would be on Canis lupis. What odds do I get?
>>
>> Do I get to pick the course? How about the African savannah
>> in summer? ;-)
>
>Do I get to include Canis lupus familiaris? Maybe a Rhodesian Ridgeback,
>those guys take on lions after (ahem) dogging them for miles.
<groan> I'd still put my money on the human (a suitable one,
of course; *I* sure as hell could no longer do it, and I'm
the wrong skin and eye type to survive a chase on the
African savannah in summer, anyway) for the reasons Jim
lists above. Even African (formerly Cape) hunting dogs don't
engage in long daylight chases. Of course, they're not
really dogs, but the principle holds. Wolves in the Arctic
and sub-Arctic do, but the environment is *far* more
friendly to a fur-clad runner.
Dan Luke
"skyeyes" wrote:
>>
>> Oh, man. There's nothing like a big bowl of buffalo (N.A. bison,
>> actually) stew. Delicious.
>
> Buffalo chili is to *die* for. Yum.....
>
Buffalo burgers are the best!
There was this burger joint in Houston that served big, rare, meaty,
dripping...
I've got to stop: I'm drooling on the keyboard.
--
Dan
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
- Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Ferrous Patella
So you are going to cherry pick the human specimen and the time of day
too? Most animals are nocturnal. Why do you think lions hunt at night. I
also noticed the goalposts shifted from a 3-5 hour race to daylong.
If you define the contest narrowly enough (elite human specimen, on a
course and time of day designed to give humans the advantage), I'd readily
concede the bet.
Bob Casanova
Nope; I was merely pointing out that in the environment in
which hominids evolved their adaptations make them superior
to *any* fur-clad runner for long-distance pursuit, and that
the converse was probably true in other and colder
environments.
> Most animals are nocturnal. Why do you think lions hunt at night. I
>also noticed the goalposts shifted from a 3-5 hour race to daylong.
First, IIRC most lions, like cheetahs and other
sight-hunting sprinters, hunt in the daytime; leopards hunt
at night. But that's irrelevant, since lions, like all cats,
are "burst" runners and have zero chance of catching such
prey as antelope over the long haul; they hunt cooperatively
and take their prey from ambush with a sprint. Second,
although the reference was made to a marathon-distance run,
I was thinking of whatever distance would be required for a
human or a wolf (or wolf derivative) to run down such prey.
It's my belief that a human would do better in a hot
climate, while a wolf would probably do better in the cold.
>If you define the contest narrowly enough (elite human specimen, on a
>course and time of day designed to give humans the advantage), I'd readily
>concede the bet.
OK, let's be a bit more fair about this. I was only
specifying the type of human because such a human is the
exception today; such would probably not have been the case
20kya. Should we restrict the human to twinkie-munching
overweight computer nerds (no offense intended to anyone;
I'm trying to make a point)? In that case, should we
restrict the "wolf" to, perhaps, Pomeranians? Or Pekingese?
I'll gladly put my nerd up against your Pekingese, since
neither one could probably run down a chipmunk. And if they
did they'd probably regret it.
Desertphile
wrote:
Dinner is at 6:00 PM; heart bypass surgery will be prompylt at
8:00 PM. :-) Nothing is better than piping hot fry bread with some
spicy guacamole, though the Navajos around here eat it with honey.
Gods.... I'm actually drooling. Disgusting.
Walter Bushell
Desertphile <deser...@nospam.org> wrote:
> Barbequed baby goat???
Anyone who serves this has got to be kidding.
Martin Andersen
[snip]
>> If you define the contest narrowly enough (elite human specimen, on a
>> course and time of day designed to give humans the advantage), I'd readily
>> concede the bet.
>
> OK, let's be a bit more fair about this. I was only
> specifying the type of human because such a human is the
> exception today; such would probably not have been the case
> 20kya. Should we restrict the human to twinkie-munching
> overweight computer nerds (no offense intended to anyone;
> I'm trying to make a point)? In that case, should we
> restrict the "wolf" to, perhaps, Pomeranians? Or Pekingese?
> I'll gladly put my nerd up against your Pekingese, since
> neither one could probably run down a chipmunk. And if they
> did they'd probably regret it.
That last line made me laugh out loud.
Bob Casanova
in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:
Ferrous? I was enjoying this; any comments?
Ferrous Patella
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:20:25 -0700, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:
>
> Ferrous? I was enjoying this; any comments?
I was going to see if I could get you to fall for letting me enter a
Poodle. It is the ultimate foo-foo dog, so people always underestimate its
hunting ability.
I think we are just going to have to agree to agree on this one. (Correct
me if I am wrong but) We both agree that both species are good long
distance runners. It is interesting that Canis lupus has evolved so
quickly to do well in Homo's environment. (Hs has done pretty well in Cl
home turf too.) I have found dogs' morphological flexibility to be
fascinating. I wonder if, after so many generations of artificial
selection, the primary trait developed is selectabilty.
Another interesting aspect is the predisposition of Canis Lupus for
domestication. Besides a similar hunting style and social structure, man's
upright stature automatically said "dominance" to dogs. C lupus also seems
to have a predisposition to understand human language.
--
Kermit
> news:3rjn231sj8i4dpvub...@4ax.comby Bob Casanova:
>
> > On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:20:25 -0700, the following appeared
> > in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:
>
> > Ferrous? I was enjoying this; any comments?
>
> I was going to see if I could get you to fall for letting me enter a
> Poodle. It is the ultimate foo-foo dog, so people always underestimate its
> hunting ability.
>
> I think we are just going to have to agree to agree on this one. (Correct
> me if I am wrong but) We both agree that both species are good long
> distance runners. It is interesting that Canis lupus has evolved so
> quickly to do well in Homo's environment. (Hs has done pretty well in Cl
> home turf too.) I have found dogs' morphological flexibility to be
> fascinating. I wonder if, after so many generations of artificial
> selection, the primary trait developed is selectabilty.
>
> Another interesting aspect is the predisposition of Canis Lupus for
> domestication. Besides a similar hunting style and social structure, man's
> upright stature automatically said "dominance" to dogs. C lupus also seems
> to have a predisposition to understand human language.
>
>
>
And vice versa. In "Animals in Translation" by Temple Grandin, she
recounts witnessing a four year-old child (from a family without dogs)
visiting a family with a dog. The kid started climbing on a chair, and
the dog growled at the kid, and he immediately slid off and found
another chair. Grandin asked him why he got off, and the kid replied
that the dog was angry - it must have been his chair.
She speculates that this is now a two-way instinctive communication.
We have lived with dogs for 100,000 years according to her, and we
have had a reasonable time to co-evolve.
Kermit
<snip>
skyeyes
> On 18 Apr 2007 16:57:55 -0700, skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 17, 11:30 am,Desertphile<desertph...@nospam.org> wrote:
> > > On 17 Apr 2007 10:47:14 -0700, WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> > > <wuzyoungonce...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:58 -0700, WuzYoungOnceToo
>
> > > > > > Oh, man. There's nothing like a big bowl of buffalo (N.A. bison,
> > > > > > actually) stew. Delicious.
>
> > > > > I will just have to take your word for it. :-)
> > > > You might choose to do so, but there's no reason you "have" to. Bison
> > > > meat isn't that difficult to come by if you live in any sort of
> > > > metropolitan area. And of course, there's always the internet.
>
> > > For the past 30 years I have been vegetarian (which may be why I'm
> > > fat and very ugly. Hummm.... gotta think about that some day).
>
> > > Here on the Rez one may buy sheepburgers and goatburgers. Fuzzy
> > > adorable sheep and goats, I bet.
> > fry bread???
>
> > What time's dinner?
>
> Dinner is at 6:00 PM; heart bypass surgery will be prompylt at
> 8:00 PM. :-) Nothing is better than piping hot fry bread with some
> spicy guacamole, though the Navajos around here eat it with honey.
>
> Gods.... I'm actually drooling. Disgusting.
My Fella over in NM is a Navajo. When we're together, we eat mutton
stew with fry bread - or Navajo tacos made out of fry bread - for
dinner, and then fry bread with honey for dessert. Yummmmmmmy!
Fortunately for my waistline/unfortunately for my love life, we don't
get to eat dinner together *that* often. (Long distance
relationships, no matter how passionate and authentic, are difficult._
Fry bread, on the other hand, is easy and delicious. :) :) :)
Martin Hutton
What's the bread fried in? Mutton fat?
When I was a lad my mum would make us breakfast with bread fried
in bacon fat. Hmm Hmm Hmmmmmm (And it was real smoke cured bacon
...not this chemical cured crap).
--
Martin Hutton
Bob Casanova
>news:3rjn231sj8i4dpvub...@4ax.com by Bob Casanova:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:20:25 -0700, the following appeared
>> in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:
>>
>> Ferrous? I was enjoying this; any comments?
>
>I was going to see if I could get you to fall for letting me enter a
>Poodle. It is the ultimate foo-foo dog, so people always underestimate its
>hunting ability.
Not a chance, at least not a standard poodle for the
cold-weather test. Since they were used by fishermen to work
nets in the North Sea in winter I think their endurance
might be the equal of wolves'.
>I think we are just going to have to agree to agree on this one. (Correct
>me if I am wrong but) We both agree that both species are good long
>distance runners. It is interesting that Canis lupus has evolved so
>quickly to do well in Homo's environment. (Hs has done pretty well in Cl
>home turf too.) I have found dogs' morphological flexibility to be
>fascinating. I wonder if, after so many generations of artificial
>selection, the primary trait developed is selectabilty.
Agree.
>Another interesting aspect is the predisposition of Canis Lupus for
>domestication. Besides a similar hunting style and social structure, man's
>upright stature automatically said "dominance" to dogs. C lupus also seems
>to have a predisposition to understand human language.
Interesting idea, and you're not the first to propose it.
Since man and wolves were both social hunters of large game
it seems they could either ally or compete if on the same
turf, and alliance certainly helped us. Of course, I'm sure
there was a bit more to it than that... ;-)
<snip>
skyeyes
<mdhutton1949REM...@hotmailREMOVE.com> wrote:
Well, nowadays they tend to fry it in Crisco or vegetable oil.
Originally, it was fried in lard that the Native Americans got from
the U.S. Army or from the Res supply depot. Lard is really the way to
go with fry bread, if you don't mind dying young. (It's worth it,
trust me.)
skyeyes
> "skyeyes" wrote:
>
> >> Oh, man. There's nothing like a big bowl of buffalo (N.A. bison,
> >> actually) stew. Delicious.
>
> > Buffalo chili is to *die* for. Yum.....
>
> Buffalo burgers are the best!
Oh, gawd, yes!!!!
> There was this burger joint in Houston that served big, rare, meaty,
> dripping...
Oddly enough, the Village Inn pancake house chain used to serve
buffalo burgers. They were respectable, for being a pancake chain.
> I've got to stop: I'm drooling on the keyboard.
I've got to stop by Wild Oats on my way home from work tonight and buy
some ground buffalo meat. Now I've got a yen for buffalo
tacos. :) :) :)
Martin Hutton
Yuch! Fried stuff should be cooked in animal fats - butter, pork
rind drippings, beef suet &c.
Might as well bake it as cook in "partially hydrogenated" or
regular veggie oil.
> Originally, it was fried in lard that the Native Americans got from
> the U.S. Army or from the Res supply depot. Lard is really the way to
> go with fry bread, if you don't mind dying young. (It's worth it,
> trust me.)
Ah...lard. The all purpose artery hardener! And there's nought
wrong with dying young...I hear only the good do that, so I'm
good for a couple more decades.
Here's a recipe to stall the heart:
285g Self-Raising Flour
150g Shredded Suet
150ml Milk
110-160g Currants or Raisins
85g Castor Sugar
1 Lemon, zest only, finely grated
Pinch Salt
Mix all of the dry ingredients, including the grated lemon zest, together
thoroughly
Add enough milk to produce a soft dough.
Turn out onto a floured surface.
Roll out the mixture to produce a roll approximately 15cm (6 in) long and
5cm (2 in) in diameter.
Prepare either a tea towel lightly dusted with flour, or sheet of kitchen
foil or a double thickness of greaseproof paper, brushed with melted butter.
Wrap loosely but securely, leaving enough space for it to rise.
Tie or seal the ends.
Place in the steamer and cover tightly.
Steam for 1½ to 2 hours.
Serve cut into thck slices with hot custard. (made with heavy cream, of
course)
And there you have Spotted Dick (I kid you not!)...don't go
swimming after you eat it otherwise you'll sink like a stone!
--
Martin Hutton