Side note on deep time
Louann Miller
tree. Which apparently exists to make mesquites look wimpy and human-
friendly. Instead of sticking with needle-sharp thorns in the half-inch
or less range, locust trees really overdo it. The trunk is a mass of two
or three inch thorns pointing in all directions at porcupine-like
densities; some of the thorns have sub-thorns. This is not pleasant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_locust
A 'walking with computer animation' style documentary I saw a while back
mentioned locust trees in passing and gave the reason for their massive
defensive armament: mammoths and mastadons. The trees are optimized to
keep big hairy pachyderms from stripping their bark off, but they also
put out big calorie-rich bean pods which ARE edible to encourage the
spread of their seeds.
That's deep time for you. A pretty firm twelve thousand years ago the
Clovis culture swept through the Americas wiping out mammoths and
mastadons in the blink of an eye: a few decades to a few centuries. Back
before any humans had written language or used metal or (odds are) had
domesticated any animals besides dogs. Twice as long ago as YEC's think
is the history of the entire universe. But the locust tree's genes
haven't yet noticed that it's happened.
John Wilkins
Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Connie Barlow had a book on this about 8 years ago called _Ghosts of
Evolution_
John Harshman
unless they have first passed through a dodo gut. Tough luck for the
tree, eh?
John Wilkins
<jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
They are getting them to germinate by scoring them in a solution of
gravel and acid, so I've heard.
Reddfrogg
On an interesting (or not, YMMV) side note, there are thornless
varieties of locust trees that have been bred for ornamental plants.
I've got two of such growing in my yard.
DJT
Walter Bushell
12 or 120 thousand years is not anything close to deep time. Perhaps it
is to a primatologist.
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Reddfrogg
> In article <tPedndEOhZAmnZXWRVn_...@giganews.com>, John Harshman> > > In article <cc6dnWJ4R5REaJrWnZ2dnUVZ_q6dn...@giganews.com>, Louann
I've heard that some trees have been successfully germinated by
feeding the seeds to domestic turkeys.
DJT
Will in New Haven
I think the Clovis people have been denied the "credit" for the big
extinction, at least in the latest flavor of paleontology.
For another relic of deep time, consider the speed of the pronghorn.
She is much faster than she needs to be to escape modern predators
reliably. Wolves rarely even _try_ Black Bears in New Mexico have been
observed looking completely _silly_ trying to ambush pronghorns and
having them escape with a huge burst of speed.
The reason for this speed: They grew up in a North America that had
its own Cheetah. It looks like the NA Cheetah was not closely related
to the modern animal but it was fast.
--
Will in New Haven
Mark Evans
We have osage oranges around here. They produce a fruit that is a
cluster about the size of my fist and has thousands of seeds. Nothing
alive eats it, including people. I suspect that the fruit evolved to
be eaten by a now extinct member of the North American mega fauna.
Mark Evans
Ernest Major
<803fac4f-f2ff-4674...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, Will
in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> writes
>For another relic of deep time, consider the speed of the pronghorn.
>She is much faster than she needs to be to escape modern predators
>reliably. Wolves rarely even _try_ Black Bears in New Mexico have been
>observed looking completely _silly_ trying to ambush pronghorns and
>having them escape with a huge burst of speed.
>
>The reason for this speed: They grew up in a North America that had its
>own Cheetah. It looks like the NA Cheetah was not closely related to
>the modern animal but it was fast.
The theory is that pronghorns are ridiculously fast, so that they can
escape from American cheetahs (Miracinonyx trumani), and have a
ridiculous amount of stamina so that they can outlast bulldog bears
(Arctodus simus and Arctodus pristinus). (It seems that there is not
general agreement on whether Arctodus was a pursuit predator.).
--
alias Ernest Major
heekster
wrote:
I have a few honey locust trees on my property with thorns over a foot
long.
And yes, the thorns have thorns, which in turn may have thorns.
Nature's concertina.
There were columbian mammoths here, camels, too, in fact,
http://www.wacomammoth.org/
I drive past this on my way to work every day. The site is expected
to open to the public, later this year.
http://www.wacotrib.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2009/05/01/05012009wacwitcol.html
The birds eat the seed pods and crap out the seeds onto the lawn,
which sprouts immediately into a fern looking plant, with thorns
several inches long. The tractor tires are kept filled with Slime for
this reason.
Clovis culture was not the only contributor to mammoth demise.
Seems that they lacked genetic diversity, and tuberculosis was
involved, also.
Walter Bushell
Mitchell Coffey
Not entirely, no. Turns out there's finally a way creationists can
assist the advancement of science.
Mitchell Coffey
richardal...@googlemail.com
> In message
> <803fac4f-f2ff-4674-beb8-a072e239d...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, Will
> in New Haven <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> writes
>
> >For another relic of deep time, consider the speed of the pronghorn.
> >She is much faster than she needs to be to escape modern predators
> >reliably. Wolves rarely even _try_ Black Bears in New Mexico have been
> >observed looking completely _silly_ trying to ambush pronghorns and
> >having them escape with a huge burst of speed.
>
> >The reason for this speed: They grew up in a North America that had its
> >own Cheetah. It looks like the NA Cheetah was not closely related to
> >the modern animal but it was fast.
>
> The theory is that pronghorns are ridiculously fast, so that they can
> escape from American cheetahs (Miracinonyx trumani), and have a
> ridiculous amount of stamina so that they can outlast bulldog bears
> (Arctodus simus and Arctodus pristinus). (It seems that there is not
> general agreement on whether Arctodus was a pursuit predator.).
The general view amongst mammal workers seems to be that accounts of
its being a fast pursuit predator owe more to rather unreliable press
releases than a scientific understanding of the anatomy of the animal.
Although Arctodus had long legs, the structure of the girdles was
incompatible with fast running. The subject came up on the vertpalaeo
email ring recently.
RF
> --
> alias Ernest Major
richardal...@googlemail.com
Actually, two, possibly three species of cheetah.
RF
Stuart
> On Nov 21, 10:01 am, John Harshman <jharsh...@pacbell.net> wrote:
<snip>
> > If I recall, there's a tree on Mauritius whose seeds won't germinate
> > unless they have first passed through a dodo gut. Tough luck for the
> > tree, eh?
>
> Not entirely, no. Turns out there's finally a way creationists can
> assist the advancement of science.
>
> Mitchell Coffey
Except the problem with creationists is that they have rocks in their
heads, not
in their stomachs.
Stuart
Frank J
I usually think of the early Precambrian as an example of "deep time,"
and even that is in the most recent ~1/4 of the age of the universe.
Compared to that 12K years is a blink of an eye. But whatever you call
it, this is another opportunity to get those who dismiss anything
before their lifetime as "deep time" to think hard about the vast
difference between 12K, 12M, 12B etc. And another opportunity to watch
YECs and OECs run from the simple fact that they can't both be right.
rmacfarl
"Stuart" <bigd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:61691017-0d1c-44a6...@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Mmm... Pity. For a moment it seemed like there might finally be
something useful to come out of their a_ses, instead of just
their "opinions"...
rmacfarl
"John Wilkins" <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote in message
news:221120090125599406%jo...@wilkins.id.au...
There are a lot of plants in New Zealand which are claimed to
retain defenses evolved against grazing by moa (but if 12,000
years isn't deep time, then extinction of moa in about the 14th
Century really doesn't count...)
heekster
Bois d'arc. Got 'em here, too.
Bob Casanova
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Reddfrogg
<redd...@bresnan.net>:
But how are you keeping the mammoths and mastodons away? ;-)
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Bob Casanova
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
>And that is only mildly deep time.
At most. I'd call the development of flowering plants mildly
deep time, with moderately deep time being associated with
the first land animals and really deep time involving cells
beginning to associate into groups.
Of course, really REALLY deep time involves no life on Earth
at all. Neat bolide impacts, though...
Paul J Gans
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_locust
Better: there is not (yet) any survival disadvantage to having
those thorns.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
No wonder the dodos went extinct.
Dana Tweedy
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:16:39 -0800 (PST), the following
>> On an interesting (or not, YMMV) side note, there are thornless
>> varieties of locust trees that have been bred for ornamental plants.
>> I've got two of such growing in my yard.
>
> But how are you keeping the mammoths and mastodons away? ;-)
I bought this rock that keeps mastadons and mammoths away. It also works on
tigers.
DJT
Bob Casanova
in talk.origins, posted by "Dana Tweedy"
<redd...@bresnan.net>:
Neat! Probably repels the Elder Gods, too...
Dana Tweedy
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:36:29 -0700, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by "Dana Tweedy"
> <redd...@bresnan.net>:
>
>> Bob Casanova wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:16:39 -0800 (PST), the following
>> snip
>>
>>>> On an interesting (or not, YMMV) side note, there are thornless
>>>> varieties of locust trees that have been bred for ornamental
>>>> plants. I've got two of such growing in my yard.
>>>
>>> But how are you keeping the mammoths and mastodons away? ;-)
>>
>> I bought this rock that keeps mastadons and mammoths away. It also
>> works on tigers.
>
> Neat! Probably repels the Elder Gods, too...
No, I had to get a stick for that....
DJT
John Wilkins
<redd...@bresnan.net> wrote:
Who knew the Nameless Horrors would turn out to average 6" high?
Richard Harter
Women.
>
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net
http://home.tiac.net/~cri, http://www.varinoma.com
Infinity is one of those things that keep philosophers busy when they
could be more profitably spending their time weeding their garden.
John Wilkins
<c...@tiac.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:56:24 +1100, John Wilkins
> <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
>
> >In article <k_idnc39n-6zw5bW...@bresnan.com>, Dana Tweedy
> ><redd...@bresnan.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:36:29 -0700, the following appeared
> >> > in talk.origins, posted by "Dana Tweedy"
> >> > <redd...@bresnan.net>:
> >> >
> >> >> Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> >>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:16:39 -0800 (PST), the following
> >> >> snip
> >> >>
> >> >>>> On an interesting (or not, YMMV) side note, there are thornless
> >> >>>> varieties of locust trees that have been bred for ornamental
> >> >>>> plants. I've got two of such growing in my yard.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> But how are you keeping the mammoths and mastodons away? ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >> I bought this rock that keeps mastadons and mammoths away. It also
> >> >> works on tigers.
> >> >
> >> > Neat! Probably repels the Elder Gods, too...
> >>
> >> No, I had to get a stick for that....
> >>
> >Who knew the Nameless Horrors would turn out to average 6" high?
>
> Women.
>
You don't have a name for your Horror? Mine's Peter.
Bob Casanova
in talk.origins, posted by John Wilkins
<jo...@wilkins.id.au>:
Mine are Cholmdeley and Talliaferro, the Horrors of Fonix.
Kent Paul Dolan
> Reddfrogg <redd...@bresnan.net> wrote:
>> Louann Miller <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> A [...] documentary I saw a while back mentioned
>>> locust trees in passing and gave the reason for
>>> their massive defensive armament: mammoths and
>>> mastadons.
>>> The trees are optimized to keep big hairy
>>> pachyderms from stripping their bark off, but
>>> they also put out big calorie-rich bean pods
>>> which ARE edible to encourage the spread of
>>> their seeds.
>> On an interesting (or not, YMMV) side note, there
>> are thornless varieties of locust trees that have
>> been bred for ornamental plants. I've got two of
>> such growing in my yard.
> But how are you keeping the mammoths and mastodons
> away? ;-)
I see a market opportunity for subsonic woofers
thudcasting pachyderm "predator spotted" alarm dance
rhythms.
xanthian.
Bob Casanova
in talk.origins, posted by Kent Paul Dolan
<xant...@well.com>:
And as an added benefit, they perform a continuous test of
your home's earthquake-proofing...