In the News: The ark builders

[jspa...@linuxquestions.net]

From the article:
-----------------------------------
Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on an industrial estate at Kentucky�s northern tip, the walls are covered with drawings and plans for Noah�s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built the ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash a catastrophic flood to �destroy all flesh�: a no-nonsense punishment for badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened about 4,000 years ago, say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures that died in the flood, which spared only Noah�s family of eight and the animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.

One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists that �old earth� evolutionists are talking nonsense � and is building a 510ft-long replica of Noah�s Ark to underline the point. The wooden vessel will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark Encounter and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in Genesis�s attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable but a historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible. Filling in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture�s bigger messages on life and morality.
-------------------------------------

Read it at http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html#slide0




J. Spaceman

[Mike Painter]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:47:19 -0700 (PDT), jspa...@linuxquestions.net
wrote:

>From the article:
>-----------------------------------
>Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on an industrial estate at Kentucky’s northern tip, the walls are covered with drawings and plans for Noah’s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built the ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash a catastrophic flood to “destroy all flesh”: a no-nonsense punishment for badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened about 4,000 years ago, say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures that died in the flood, which spared only Noah’s family of eight and the animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.
>
>One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists that “old earth” evolutionists are talking nonsense – and is building a 510ft-long replica of Noah’s Ark to underline the point. The wooden vessel will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark Encounter and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in Genesis’s attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable but a historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible. Filling in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture’s bigger messages on life and morality.

>-------------------------------------
>
>Read it at http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html#slide0

" But the ark will not set sail. Marsh could build a seaworthy vessel
with the same techniques, he said,"

He could not, especially if it was the barge type that people are
claiming today.

Not even with my help and I have a super secret method for combating
sagging. One used by the ancients while navigating certain waterways,
many of which no longer exist.

(Except for the super secret part all the above is true - when viewed
under the proper light. Oddly enough that information is found in the
heart of bible belt land and they never have used it.)

[J. J. Lodder]

<jspa...@linuxquestions.net> wrote:

> From the article:
> -----------------------------------
> Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on an

[rest of excessively long line snipped]

>
> One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is respon

[rest of excessively long line snipped]

> -------------------------------------
>
> Read it at http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html
>

"The ark will sit next to a man-made lake ..."
says it all,

Jan

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 7 April 2013 05:47:19 UTC+1, jspa...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> From the article:

I notice you only include the creationist bit. Most of the article
is about how the AIG business is insulting and embarrassing to have
in your neighbourhood.

On the other hand, is it justified that the author refers - whilst
talking to Patrick Marsh, UCLA MFA Design, Product Design and
Architecture according to LinkedIn, apparently not a formal
bible scholar or pastor - to "the liberal, feel-good churches
that have decided hellish warnings about sin are driving people
away and instead talk up God's benevolence"? /Are/ there churches
that feel good and preach forgiveness, and is that so bad?
Pat comes back with, "You have to realise that God is judgmental
and God does judge." Likewise chauvinism, I suppose. It's just
how God is.

Maybe Barney Jopson promised to put that part in. However, I've
read the book. God swore not to do a flood again, so a new ark
is of limited use as a symbol of God's judgmentalism. What Pat
should do is take that manmade lake and set it on fire. That's
in the book as well. But then there might be a teeny problem
with the EPA, what with acid rain and such.

[Ron O]

On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> From the article:
> -----------------------------------

> Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on an industrial estate at Kentucky s northern tip, the walls are covered with drawings and plans for Noah s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built the ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash a catastrophic flood to destroy all flesh : a no-nonsense punishment for badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened about 4,000 years ago, say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures that died in the flood, which spared only Noah s family of eight and the animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.
>
> One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists that old earth evolutionists are talking nonsense and is building a 510ft-long replica of Noah s Ark to underline the point. The wooden vessel will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark Encounter and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in Genesis s attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable but a historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible. Filling in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture s bigger messages on life and morality.
> -------------------------------------
>
> Read it athttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html#s...
>
> J. Spaceman

I do not understand the business model. They ask for donations to
build a for profit enterprise. Are these "donations" considered
taxable gifts? What do they tell the people that donate? The
donations probably can't be used as a tax write off by the donors, and
probably have to be claimed as company income. Usually a company
issues bonds or shares, but these guys are just asking for money so
that they can make money. What kind of laws do they have to navigate
around? Right now they are using up the donations for salaries and
planning. What happens if they never reach their 126 million dollar
goal? How many years have they been accepting donations already?
Obviously their salaries and compensations are "profit" for the
company owners and they have to pay taxes on them. How long can they
only have plans and keep accepting donations? They are literally
accepting donations so that they can make money. It seems to be a
suspect business model. Does anyone know of a similar business model
that ever worked in any way except having the company live off the
donations for a while? I have never heard of a multimillion dollar
for profit company based on donations. These guys are talking about
raising 126 million dollars. How does it work if some "donors" get a
piece of the company profits or assets and others do not?

Ron Okimoto

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 7 April 2013 14:57:42 UTC+1, Ron O wrote:
> How long can they
> only have plans and keep accepting donations? They are literally
> accepting donations so that they can make money. It seems to be a
> suspect business model. Does anyone know of a similar business model
> that ever worked in any way except having the company live off the
> donations for a while? I have never heard of a multimillion dollar
> for profit company based on donations. These guys are talking about
> raising 126 million dollars. How does it work if some "donors" get a
> piece of the company profits or assets and others do not?

I don't know exactly how the Roman "circus" and other festivals
operated, but I gather that prominent public figures, rulers and
would-be rulers paid for the show to be put on, and the audience
enjoys it free or subsidised. So, if you are the circus company,
apparently you're depending on donations from rich famous men
to pay you to put on a show, for which they don't get a tangible
return. But they get votes, or they just keep people happy.
As for where the money comes from originally - it may be your taxes
(ouch!), or from looting the lands conquered by the Roman Empire.

In this case, though, presumably "donations" are like an offering
in church, in God's eyes if not those of the IRS, and you get paid
back when you get to heaven. I think that means it's not dissimilar.

[Harry K]

On Apr 6, 9:47 pm, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> From the article:
> -----------------------------------

> Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on an industrial estate at Kentucky s northern tip, the walls are covered with drawings and plans for Noah s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built the ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash a catastrophic flood to destroy all flesh : a no-nonsense punishment for badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened about 4,000 years ago, say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures that died in the flood, which spared only Noah s family of eight and the animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.
>

> One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists that old earth evolutionists are talking nonsense and is building a 510ft-long replica of Noah s Ark to underline the point. The wooden vessel will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark Encounter and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in Genesis s attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable but a historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible. Filling in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture s bigger messages on life and morality.
> -------------------------------------
>
> Read it athttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html#s...
>
> J. Spaceman

He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
would have had plus no more than the original crew.
I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.

Harry K

[Ron O]

You'd think that the donors would mostly be protestants and that they
would know better about the differences between works and faith.
There is a small clause about not being able to buy your way into
heaven. Not only that, but this is a for profit company. The owners
are going to do God's work for the profit and material gain.

Ron Okimoto

[chris thompson]

"The ark will be built on an 800-acre site close to Williamstown, 40
miles south of the office, and a study for Answers in Genesis
predicted that it would get 1.6 million visitors in its first year.
Marsh has already lined up Amish carpenters from Indiana, who are
among the few Americans able to erect large timber structures with
old-­fashioned notching and pegging techniques that don’t require
nails or electric tools."

Not sure they're the same tools and methods available to Noah, but
it's probably as close as he can get. Not that I'm defending it.

What's the Amish position on evolution?

Chris

[Robert Carnegie]

Well, not quite the same thing, but here's a bible bit (I think;
I found it online) that covers, spend money, get no worldly return,
but get repaid in the afterlife -

"When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends
or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they
also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give
a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and
you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will
be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

Evidently, this was addressed to a man whose friend, family and
neighbours were not poor, crippled, lame, or blind - since presumably
the friends, family, etc. were all at the party where the remark
was made. That is, in fact, the context.

Then again, you can be lame and rich, or blind and rich.
I mean, Stevie Wonder must be doing all right.

[Mike Painter]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 06:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <roki...@cox.net>
wrote:

>I do not understand the business model. They ask for donations to
>build a for profit enterprise. Are these "donations" considered
>taxable gifts? What do they tell the people that donate? The
>donations probably can't be used as a tax write off by the donors, and
>probably have to be claimed as company income. Usually a company
>issues bonds or shares, but these guys are just asking for money so
>that they can make money. What kind of laws do they have to navigate
>around? Right now they are using up the donations for salaries and
>planning. What happens if they never reach their 126 million dollar
>goal? How many years have they been accepting donations already?
>Obviously their salaries and compensations are "profit" for the
>company owners and they have to pay taxes on them. How long can they
>only have plans and keep accepting donations? They are literally
>accepting donations so that they can make money. It seems to be a
>suspect business model. Does anyone know of a similar business model
>that ever worked in any way except having the company live off the
>donations for a while? I have never heard of a multimillion dollar
>for profit company based on donations. These guys are talking about
>raising 126 million dollars. How does it work if some "donors" get a
>piece of the company profits or assets and others do not?
>
>Ron Okimoto
>

The non profit corporation will pay wages to the staff and management.
Those people will pay taxes on their income.

There is nothing that says a non profit can't make money, just what
they do with the money at the end of the year. The local non profit
hospital has millions left over at the end of the year even after
writing off millions in unpaid bills etc.

[J. J. Lodder]

chris thompson <chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 11:03 am, Harry K <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 6, 9:47 pm, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> >
> > > From the article:
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on

[rest of excessively long line snipped]
> > >

> > > One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is re

[rest of excessively long line snipped]
> > > -------------------------------------
> >

> > > Read it athttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144tml#s...

> >
> > > J. Spaceman
> >
> > He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
> > would have had plus no more than the original crew.
> > I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
> > restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.
> >
> > Harry K
>
> "The ark will be built on an 800-acre site close to Williamstown, 40
> miles south of the office, and a study for Answers in Genesis
> predicted that it would get 1.6 million visitors in its first year.
> Marsh has already lined up Amish carpenters from Indiana, who are
> among the few Americans able to erect large timber structures with

> old-?fashioned notching and pegging techniques that don't require

> nails or electric tools."
>
> Not sure they're the same tools and methods available to Noah, but
> it's probably as close as he can get. Not that I'm defending it.

But they do (almost inevitably) require iron tools.
Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
using only hand-made bronze tools,
and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,

Jan

[eridanus]

El domingo, 7 de abril de 2013 21:12:13 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder escribi�:

bronze tools had been advanced technology and not yet available
in the times of Noak. Just imagine Noak doing holes in the wood
with with tip drills made of flint-stone. I suppose Noak made
the the ark at the time of the dinosaurs. That was on biblical
accounts the stone age, probably the paleolithic or the Pleistocene.
I need to visit this site in the US that shows the humans living among
the dinosaurs. I will look at their stone tools, to see if they were
Levallois, or much older like Acheulean. They must present some
samples of those stone tools used by Noak to built the Ark.

Eridanus

[Paul J Gans]

Ron O <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

They are probably claiming a religious exemption from all
laws they don't like.

I'll bet the IRS leaves them alone. And I'd love to be
proven wrong.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[Ron O]

On Apr 7, 2:38 pm, Mike Painter <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 06:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <rokim...@cox.net>

This effort is not a non profit organization. It is separate from the
AIG. They have claimed that it is a for profit enterprise since the
beginning when they sought out State aid and tax incentives.

You do have to watch the non profit charitable organizations. We
contributed to one for several years before we found out that they
weren't doing much. In Utah all you had to do is have 5% of the
donations that you recieve go to the effort that you claim. So they
were claiming the maximum overhead. We found out because they went
under investigation for not even doing that much.

Ron Okimoto

[Ron O]

On Apr 7, 4:23�pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

It is a for profit company.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40460324/#.UWHn81ceo4g

That is already getting the state to invest money.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/15/1091214/-Kentucky-s-Noah-s-Ark-Theme-Park-When-a-Recession-Culture-and-Political-Pandering-Collide

They supposedly have already raised 12 million dollars through public
donations and something that they call subscriptions. I have never
heard of subscriptions for a for profit company outside of newspapers
and such.

Ron Okimoto

[Mike Painter]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:12:13 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>
>But they do (almost inevitably) require iron tools.
>Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
>to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
>using only hand-made bronze tools,
>and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,

My lady friends house is close to 100 years old and I've broken screws
trying to screw them into the wood when I did not drill deep enough
pilot holes.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 7 April 2013 21:12:13 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
> to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
> using only hand-made bronze tools,
> and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,

Noah's ark was made of "gopher wood", which either is not translatable
or (if you believe it) no longer exists. So, heck, maybe it's soft
and easy to work on until it gets wet. Maybe God only created it in
the Garden of Eden so that it would be available to build the Ark of,
and since there wasn't going to be another flood, it was OK for the
flood to kill the gopher trees.

I'm not saying that that is a reasonable argument, but it's there.

[Harry K]

On Apr 7, 1:12�pm, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

I once tried to tear down a shed built in such fashion, mortise/tenon,
wood pegged.

I could not break the joints even though there was lots of play. I
could shake the the wall back and orth at least 6 inches. Finallyi
had to saw the joints apart. Could have drilled ouit the pegs but saw
was faster.

I would presume fromt hat esperience a ship put together that way
wouild haved LOTS of play as each joint would add its "play" to the
previous.

Harry K

[J. J. Lodder]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, 7 April 2013 21:12:13 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
> > to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
> > using only hand-made bronze tools,
> > and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,
>
> Noah's ark was made of "gopher wood", which either is not translatable
> or (if you believe it) no longer exists.

The word occurs once, in the whole literature.
Those sheperds from the hills probably misunderstood something.

> So, heck, maybe it's soft
> and easy to work on until it gets wet. Maybe God only created it in
> the Garden of Eden so that it would be available to build the Ark of,
> and since there wasn't going to be another flood, it was OK for the
> flood to kill the gopher trees.
>
> I'm not saying that that is a reasonable argument, but it's there.

Sure, you can always invoke miracles,
but that takes away from it being literally true,

Jan

[Paul J Gans]

And all this time I thought it was wood they sent the gofer for.

[Glenn]

"Paul J Gans" <gan...@panix.com> wrote in message news:kjusch$pkc$3...@reader1.panix.com...

What wood did the gofer gofor?

[chris thompson]

Ocean wave height (as I've posted before) is dependent on wind speed,
fetch, and duration of wind. Fetch is the distance of water over which
the wind blows. In a water-covered world (as postulated by the
Noachian Flood) fetch is effectively infinite.

During Sandy, I watched 6-8 foot waves batter the Rockaway, NY
boardwalk. 12x2 pieces of lumber were shattered. Forty-foot pieces of
boardwalk were torn off and carried at least 50 feet inland, to smash
into the homes on the beach. Smaller pieces- maybe 20 feet- were
washed at least 100 yards inland from the high tide mark and smashed
into my car.

I know you're now promoting a flood, but if those relatively little
waves could cause that much damage, imagine what a rogue wave (30-70
feet...the largest on record is 110 feet, as measured by trigonometry
by a seaman experiencing "Halsey's Typhoon during WWII) would do to an
unpowered barge (unpowered is important, since it cannot steer into
the waves) with pegs and such.

Chris

[J. J. Lodder]

Harry K <tur...@q.com> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 1:12 pm, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> > chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 7, 11:03 am, Harry K <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 6, 9:47 pm, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> >
> > > > > From the article:
> > > > > -----------------------------------

> > > > > Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis o, on

> >
> > [rest of excessively long line snipped]
> >

> > > > > One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude s re

You can tap the pins out.
(in European medieval construction the custom was
not to saw of the sharp ends of the pins off.
This to prevent witches from fying about
between beams and girders.
Known as witches pins)

Even if not immediately visible
you can still tap them out
with a suitable driver.

> I would presume fromt hat esperience a ship put together that way
> wouild haved LOTS of play as each joint would add its "play" to the
> previous.

In ship building one tried to make the construction
as stiff as possible.
Nevertheless, in a heavy sea the whole ship would twist and flex.
Making lots of craking noises, and worse, letting in lots of water.

On a capital ship built of wood in a heavy sea
much of the crew would be needed to man the pumps,
just to keep it afloat.

An ark-sized wooden ship would sink even in a light sea
just by leakage caused by flexing.
Even if pumps had been available BCE 2500 (quod non)
the manpower to work them (just Noah and sons) wasn't there,

Jan

[Mike Painter]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:19:24 -0700 (PDT), chris thompson
<chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Ocean wave height (as I've posted before) is dependent on wind speed,
>fetch, and duration of wind. Fetch is the distance of water over which
>the wind blows. In a water-covered world (as postulated by the
>Noachian Flood) fetch is effectively infinite.
>
>During Sandy, I watched 6-8 foot waves batter the Rockaway, NY
>boardwalk. 12x2 pieces of lumber were shattered. Forty-foot pieces of
>boardwalk were torn off and carried at least 50 feet inland, to smash
>into the homes on the beach. Smaller pieces- maybe 20 feet- were
>washed at least 100 yards inland from the high tide mark and smashed
>into my car.
>
>I know you're now promoting a flood, but if those relatively little
>waves could cause that much damage, imagine what a rogue wave (30-70
>feet...the largest on record is 110 feet, as measured by trigonometry
>by a seaman experiencing "Halsey's Typhoon during WWII) would do to an
>unpowered barge (unpowered is important, since it cannot steer into
>the waves) with pegs and such.
>
>Chris

The height at which a wave breaks is a function of the depth.
If the bottom comes up slowly as it tends to do on the East coast the
energy is spread out over a considerable distance.
If it comes up rapidly it tends to be focused and all the energy is
delivered over a small area.

The waves that hit the ark as it neared a mountain would have crushed
it.

Of course everyone would be dead by then as the wind would have caused
the ark to go broad side and capsized it.

[Desertphile]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:47:19 -0700 (PDT), jspa...@linuxquestions.net
wrote:

> Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office,

> on an industrial estate at Kentucky�s northern tip, the walls are covered
> with drawings and plans for Noah�s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built

> the ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash

That is not what the two version in the Bible say. Shit, it's not even
what the Babylonian version says which the Judaites got during the
Captivity.

*WHEN* of when will Christians actually read their paper god?

> a catastrophic flood to �destroy all flesh�: a no-nonsense punishment

> for badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened
> about 4,000 years ago

... which everyone else living at the time did not inconvenient in the
least.

> say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures
> that died in the flood

... which means the dinosaurs just ran 40% up the hills they could
find, stopped, and let all of the mammals rush past them to the top...

> which spared only Noah�s family of eight and the

> animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.

The older versions of the myth are much more believable, note.

> One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is
> responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists

> that �old earth� evolutionists are talking nonsense � and is building
> a 510ft-long replica of Noah�s Ark to underline the point.

So if he builds a sleigh, Santa Claus exists?

> The wooden
> vessel will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark
> Encounter and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in

> Genesis�s attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable

> but a historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible.

> Filling in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture�s

> bigger messages on life and morality.


--

Nemo me impune lacessit.
"Let me put it this way, ['lord' Monckton is] the type of guy that masturbates
while looking at himself in the mirror." -- voicubogdan84

[Desertphile]

Triumphs were paid for by the poor bastard who asked the Senate if he
could have one; many ancient Romans went very deep in to debt to pay
for a triumph. Circuses around the time of Cato the Incorruptible were
paid by politicians out of their own pockets; by the time of Cato the
Younger, circuses were paid by taxation.

The parallels to the USA are shocking. :-)

[Desertphile]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:03:56 -0700 (PDT), Harry K <tur...@q.com>
wrote:

> He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
> would have had plus no more than the original crew.
> I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
> restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.

Sheeeeit: just let him go find some "gopher wood."

> Harry K

[Desertphile]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:37:09 -0700 (PDT), chris thompson
<chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

*CUT*

> > He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
> > would have had plus no more than the original crew.
> > I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
> > restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.
> >
> > Harry K

> "The ark will be built on an 800-acre site close to Williamstown, 40
> miles south of the office, and a study for Answers in Genesis
> predicted that it would get 1.6 million visitors in its first year.
> Marsh has already lined up Amish carpenters from Indiana, who are
> among the few Americans able to erect large timber structures with
> old-�fashioned notching and pegging techniques that don�t require
> nails or electric tools."

Are there really enough Amish within horse-and-buggy distance to get
the project done within a human life-time?

> Not sure they're the same tools and methods available to Noah, but
> it's probably as close as he can get. Not that I'm defending it.

Ron Stringfellow once said T-rex helped Noah saw wood, using its
teeth. No, really.

> What's the Amish position on evolution?
>
> Chris

[Desertphile]

Maybe "gopher wood" comes pre-drilled....

[Bruce Stephens]

Desertphile <Deser...@spammegmail.com> writes:

[...]

> Maybe "gopher wood" comes pre-drilled....

I was imagine Noah using trained termites, but maybe gopher wood just
has conveniently-spaced knotholes?

[John S. Wilkins]

The leaves of the tree came with instructions: Insert slot A into tab B.
Ikea rage is old.
--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

[Paul J Gans]

They used dinosaurs and worked them to death. As a result
all mention of them was expunged from the records.

[Paul J Gans]

And you've not even mentioned the outsourceing of the Roman
army in which hired "barbarian" groups replaced Roman citizens.

Today they are known as "contractors".

[jillery]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:52:55 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.

Is that what is referred to as "hogging"?

[jillery]

Yeppers. One might say the Ark was not intelligently designed, but it
was Intelligently Designed.

[Paul J Gans]

Desertphile <Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:00:27 -0700, Mike Painter
><mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:12:13 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>> Lodder) wrote:

>> >But they do (almost inevitably) require iron tools.
>> >Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
>> >to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
>> >using only hand-made bronze tools,
>> >and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,

>> My lady friends house is close to 100 years old and I've broken screws
>> trying to screw them into the wood when I did not drill deep enough
>> pilot holes.

>Maybe "gopher wood" comes pre-drilled....

That's IKEA wood.

[Mike Painter]

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:47:36 -0400, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>>In ship building one tried to make the construction
>>as stiff as possible.
>>Nevertheless, in a heavy sea the whole ship would twist and flex.
>>Making lots of craking noises, and worse, letting in lots of water.
>
>
>Is that what is referred to as "hogging"?

Sort of a subset of the description but both happen in calm water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogging_and_sagging

[Mike Painter]

This is a bit long and I apologize to whoever first posted it as it
was quite while ago and I didn't copy a name.


O-kay... my problem with _anyone_ who takes creationism seriously is
that it simply doesn't add up. Let's take my fav example, Ye Arke.
So, depending on what you use for a cubit, Ye Arke is about 450 feet
long,75 wide, and 45 tall, right? I work best in metres, so lets do a
bit of conversion: that's 137.16 by 22.86 by 13.716 metres, right? For
ease of calculation, let's call it 140 x 23 x 14. This give you
45.080e+3 cubic meters. One cubic meter of pure water is one metric
tonne. Salt water is a bit more dense. Be nice, add another thousand
tonnes or so... Ye Arke displaces 46,000 tonnes. Maybe 46,400 at max.
And I'm being generous. (The reader who knows something about
ship-building will also spot a certain minor problem with the above
figures. No creationist has ever seen it... in part 'cause if it's
corrected, things get worse for Ye Arke.)

Problem 1: The sheer size. HMS _Victory_, still preserved at
Portsmouth, was 186 feet long on the gundeck. HMS _Victoria_, the last
full-rigged 1strate ship of the line to serve as flag of the Channel
Fleet, built in 1859, was 250 feet long on the gundeck. And she had a
steel frame because the RN had found that building wooden ships much
bigger than 225 feet long was not a good idea because they tended to
straddle or to hog on being launched; that is, they tended to bend,
their bows and sterns to stick up out of the water at an angle,
(that's straddling) or to bend the other way, the bows and sterns
supported by waves but the midships sections out of the water (or at
least not as well supported) (that's hogging) and either way their
keels tended to crack under the strain. Even with steel frames, wooden
ships bigger than 250 feet long tended to hog or straddle. Don't take
my word for it, look it up for yourself. One possible source: _The
Wooden Fighting Ship In the Royal Navy, 897-1860_, EHH Archibald,
Blandford Press, London. Sorry, my copy was published back before
ISBNs. Edward Archibald was at the time of writing the curator of the
National Maritime Museum, Portsmouth, England. Or build a wooden boat
250 feet long and see what happens. Ye Arke was the size of_two_ 1st
rate line of battleships, laid end-to-end. Noah was a shepherd. He
knew better than the shipwrights at Chatham who built the ships with
which the RN dominated the world for 150 years? If I'm wrong, and it
is possible to build a 450 foot wooden vessel, by all means
demonstrate it. I'll even put up some of the money... so long as I get
to record the launch of said vessel. And so long as those who say that
such a craft would be safe are willing to stay on it while it's being
launched. Me, I figure that I'd get some _great_ pix.

Problem 2: Even though it's too big to work, Ye Arke is _too small_ to
do its job. Noah was at sea for a year. The Bible explicitly states
that he carried food for himself, his family, and the animals... where
did he put it? John Woodmorappe (who is, BTW, a creationist) in his
book _Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study_, published by the Institute for
Creation Research, El Cajon, California, (the ICR is not merely
creationist; it _requires_ that all who work there take an oath that
they feel that the Bible is inerrant, as demonstrated on their web
site) calculates that Noah's ark carried 5.5 million kilos by weight
of animals. (I disagree with this figure, as it's much too low, but
for purposes of argument I'll use it.) He also estimates that each
animal, on average, ate one thirtieth of its body weight per day.
Let's see... 5.5 million kilos is 5,500 tonnes. Divide by 30, multiply
by 365... 66.917e+3. (Ye Arke was at sea for over a year, according to
Gen 7and 8. I'll just use one year to keep things simple and to give
Woody as much slack as possible. Wouldn't want anyone to say that I
was railroading him.) Hmm. 67 thousand tonnes of food, by Woody's own
figures. But... if you remember, we calculated that Ye Arke could
displace a max of 46,000tonnes, or 46,400 if we were being generous.
And that included the mass of the boat itself, and the animals.
(Archimedes' Principle, you know) Looks like y'all need at least two
Arkes just to carry the food. So where's the mention of the Great
Barge Fleet in the Bible? I once tried to work out just how big an
Arke would have had to have been to carry the assorted animals and
their food and have space for proper cages and exercise areas so that
the animals' muscles don't atrophy... after I got to 900,000 tonnes
displacement and still hadn't accounted for all the good stuff, I
stopped. That's _three times the size of a supertanker_. Or _nine
times the size of a nuke aircraft carrier_. There's simply no way that
a wooden vessel could ever be that big. No way at all.

Problem 3: In order to get the mass of the animals down, Woody pared
things down. He tried to define 'kind' so as to have, say, one pair of
cat-like what evers, and have all present day cats, from house cats to
lions, descendants of that pair. Nice... except that doing it that way
_requires_ evolution on a scale so massive and rapid that _no_
evolutionary biologist would dare suggest it. And Woody does that with
_all_ animals... It's the only way he could get 'em to fit.

Problem 4: Even after he pares down the list (he posits 15,754
'kinds') he has a problem. In order for there to be physically enough
space inside Ye Arke, Woody uses the _median_ to work out the size of
cages. He says that if you have hippos, elephants, rats, and dogs, you
can use the _median_ size animal and build cages for 'em, and they'll
all fit. The median size, according to Woody, that of a sheep. Using
that, he can shoehorn enough cages into Ye Arke to hold his 15,754
kinds... but only just. And the cages would be sized so that an animal
in it would be able to stand up, but not move about... which means it
gets no exercise, and its muscles will atrophy. And it won't live to
see the end of the voyage. Unfortunately, Woody can't think of any
other way to fit 'em all in.

Problem 5: Remember that 67,000 tonnes of food? What goes in must come
out... Noah and his crew (all eight of 'em) are gonna be kinda busy
moving that 67,000 tonnes in one end, and removing the whatever amount
of tonnes of waste products out the other. _Each_ member of the crew
would have about 2,000 'kinds' of animals to feed every day... and
remember, some of those, the clean ones, would be in sevens, and the
others in pairs. Let's see. 15,754 divided by eight is a tad over
1,969. Number of seconds/day is 86,400.Noah & Co. had 43.875 _seconds_
per 'kind' per day if they worked continously24/7 for the year they
were at sea to feed and clean 'em. Must've been trailing bloody
Cherenkov radiation as they ran about the boat, or at least sonic
booms. And, of course, if there were more 'kinds' than Woody's
15,754,Noah & Co. would have had less time per 'kind', while if there
were less 'kinds', the hyperevolution problem would be worse.

Problem 6: Ye Floode itself. It covered the 'high hills and
mountains'. Hmm... Some creationists say that there was massive
amounts of mountain building post-Floode, which is why Everest, for
example, is as tall as it is. For the purposes of argument, I'll take
'em at their word. How tall _were_ the 'high hills and mountains',
though? 100 feet? 1000 feet? 2000 feet? Well, they'd better have been
less than 250 feet, 'cause if you put that much water above coral
reefs, the reefs die. (You can check it for yourself.) Every coral
reef in the world should be dead... unless Noah carried a few corals
with him on Ye Arke, which gives him some extra problems. And which is
not supported by the Bible, anyway. It's easy to work out how much
water would be required for a Floode that size. Now, divide by 24 by
40, and you see how much fell per hour in the 40 days and 40 nights...
and that's one hell of a lot of water, even if you restrict it to 250
feet extra. I've been in hurricanes. They didn't dump anywhere _near_
that kind of water. Not even within three orders of magnitude. No way
a wooden boat's gonna survive that. None. I won't bother go into
varves, sandstones, and salt domes...

Problem 7: Plants. Not only would Noah have had to carry food for all
the animals (and, if predators such as tigers were then carnivores,
this would include extra animals to furnish food for said predators,
while if they were vegetarians, this would require extra fodder and an
explanation as to when and why they changed...) but he's gonna have to
carry all the various plants as well. All of them. Land plants don't
care for major floods, and would all die. Fresh-water plants don't
like too much salt, and would all die. Marine plants don't like too
little salt and would all die. Estuary plants, who don't care about
the salt content, do care about water pressure... and would all die
long before the corals (see above) would. After Ye Floode would come
Ye Dust Storm, as the wind dries up the mud and blows away the topsoil
because there's no ground cover left to preserve it, it's all dead in
Ye Floode.

Problem 8: Aquatic life. Gen 7-8 simply does not mention aquatic life,
animals or plant. Perhaps fish don't have "the breath of life", as
they don't breath air, but whales and seals and such do. Did Noah
carry whales andseals on Ye Arke, too, and if so were they clean or
unclean? (Whales aredescended from hooved, cud-chewing animals, and
even still have multiple-chambered stomachs, and so should be Oclean';
that's seven of Oem... Seals are, I think, descended from weasels, so
they might be Ounclean'.) The vast majority of marine animals don't
like it if there's too little salt, or too much water pressure, or
both; a Floode that could reach above Everest would kill them all.
(Some marine life _loves_ pressure, and die if there's too little,
which creates a different problem, see below) The vast majority of
fresh-water animals don't like it if there's too much salt, and are
far less pressure-resistant than marine life (how deep can you go in a
lake, anyway?) (except for Lake Baikal, that is...) so Ye Floode would
kill them, too. Worse, the Bible expressly states that all creatures
not on board Ye Arke died in Ye Floode. Noah now has to have large
aquaria on his wooden barge... I'm kinda curious as to how Noah kept
the pressure on the tanks containing the deep-ocean life, so that they
wouldn't die from decompression. And how he kept the seven whales
happy. Let's see... a tank big enough to hold seven whales, so that
they could swim around and use their baleen plates to sift out the
plankton. And another tank to grow more plankton for Oem, as seven
whales are gonna eat a lot of plankton. Unless, of course, the whales
can be convinced to eat hay... I can see it now. No teeth, but eating
hay. And, of course, the toothed whales (sperm whales and the various
dolphins) would have to be kept away from the fish tanks, and if the
dolphins include a killer whale or two, away from the other whales and
the seals... And there had better not be any leopard seals in the
seals, for similar reasons. How big is this barge again?

Problem 9: Disease/parasites. Tapeworm, AIDs, leprosy, etc, they're
all living creatures too. If they were not on Ye Arke, they died. Some
of them _require_ a _living_ host. Which one or ones of Noah's crew
carried herpes, which hookworm, which Ebola? How about ticks, fleas,
lice?

Problem #10: Latent heat of vaporisation. Do you know how much heat
water releases when it turns from vapour to liquid? Ever have a steam
burn? 1gof steam condenses to 1g of liquid water plus 2261 joules! A
cubic meter of water is a million grams and the surface of the Earth
is 5.09 x 10^8 km2or 5.09 x1014 m2. Thus, if we drop a measely meter
of water a day for 40days, the amount of energy released is 2261
joules/g * 1,000,000 g/m3 *5.09*10^14 m3 per day or 1.15 * 10^24
joules a day or 249,300,000 megatonnes/day! The pentagon would envy
such an arsenal. Put another way, for every m of water level increase,
we have to release 2.261 billion joules/m2. At a rate of 1 m/day, this
comes to 2.261 billion joules/day/m2 or a radiance of 26 kilowatts/m2,
roughly 20 times the brightness of the sun! Result: The atmosphere
rapidly turns into incandescent plasma incinerating Noah and Ye Arke.
Nothing survives, the oceans boil and the land is baked into pottery.
There's more, but this has gotten too long already. If you _really_
want to see why I use that sig, check out the t.o FAQs and run the
calcs for yourself. It's not difficult to do. It's simple. Anyone who
takes Ye Arke seriously either hasn't done the math or can't add.

[Harry K]

They probably deep sixed the bodies hoping god would not notice such a
minor point as an entire "kind" of animals had disappeared.

Harry K

[J. J. Lodder]

jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:52:55 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> >Harry K <tur...@q.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Apr 7, 1:12 pm, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> >> > chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > On Apr 7, 11:03 am, Harry K <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> >> > > > On Apr 6, 9:47 pm, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > > > From the article:
> >> > > > > -----------------------------------
> >> > > > > Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis
> >> >

> >> > [rest of excessively long line snipped]
> >> >
> >> > > > > One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude s

Dynamic hogging and sagging.
It also bends and twists the hull planking,
causing the ship to make more water in heavy seas.

[SkyEyes]

On Apr 8, 4:14�pm, Desertphile <Desertph...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:37:09 -0700 (PDT), chris thompson
>

> <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *CUT*
>
> > > He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
> > > would have had plus no more than the original crew.
> > > I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
> > > restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.
>
> > > Harry K
> > "The ark will be built on an 800-acre site close to Williamstown, 40
> > miles south of the office, and a study for Answers in Genesis
> > predicted that it would get 1.6 million visitors in its first year.
> > Marsh has already lined up Amish carpenters from Indiana, who are
> > among the few Americans able to erect large timber structures with

> > old-�fashioned notching and pegging techniques that don�t require

> > nails or electric tools."
>
> Are there really enough Amish within horse-and-buggy distance to get
> the project done within a human life-time?
>
> > Not sure they're the same tools and methods available to Noah, but
> > it's probably as close as he can get. Not that I'm defending it.
>
> Ron Stringfellow once said T-rex helped Noah saw wood, using its
> teeth. No, really.
>
> > What's the Amish position on evolution?

They're basically Anabaptists, biblical literalists, and end their
education at the end of the 8th grade, so I'm guessing that few Amish
believe in evolution.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<c4d97855-19ac-4993...@u20g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

Harry K <tur...@q.com> wrote:

> On Apr 6, 9:47 pm, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> > From the article:
> > -----------------------------------

> > Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on
> > an industrial estate at Kentucky s northern tip, the walls are covered with
> > drawings and plans for Noah s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built the

> > ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash a

> > catastrophic flood to destroy all flesh : a no-nonsense punishment for
> > badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened about

> > 4,000 years ago, say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures
> > that died in the flood, which spared only Noah s family of eight and the

> > animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.
> >

> > One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is
> > responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists
> > that old earth evolutionists are talking nonsense and is building a

> > 510ft-long replica of Noah s Ark to underline the point. The wooden vessel

> > will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark Encounter
> > and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in Genesis s
> > attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable but a
> > historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible. Filling
> > in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture s
> > bigger messages on life and morality.

> > -------------------------------------
> >
> > Read it
> > athttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html#s...
> >
> > J. Spaceman

>
> He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
> would have had plus no more than the original crew.
> I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
> restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.
>
> Harry K

Can't make a wooden ship that size anyways, need a metal framework at
least. Not to mention that Noah was going to sail(?) in the great^64
mother of all storms.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Desertphile]

No doubt the Germani charged the Romans $900 for a hammer, like the
USA Army is charged today.

[Paul J Gans]

If we are to have divinely inspired global flooding, why not also
have a divinely inspired cone of silence around the ark?

More seriously, in my opinion the old testament shows many signs
of NOT having been written by people with any real knowlege of
the sea.

[Desertphile]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 00:13:44 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net>
wrote:

> On Apr 8, 4:14�pm, Desertphile <Desertph...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:37:09 -0700 (PDT), chris thompson
> >
> > <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > *CUT*
> >
> > > > He should be required to build it using only the same type tools Noah
> > > > would have had plus no more than the original crew.
> > > > I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
> > > > restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.
> >
> > > > Harry K
> > > "The ark will be built on an 800-acre site close to Williamstown, 40
> > > miles south of the office, and a study for Answers in Genesis
> > > predicted that it would get 1.6 million visitors in its first year.
> > > Marsh has already lined up Amish carpenters from Indiana, who are
> > > among the few Americans able to erect large timber structures with

> > > old-�fashioned notching and pegging techniques that don�t require

> > > nails or electric tools."
> >
> > Are there really enough Amish within horse-and-buggy distance to get
> > the project done within a human life-time?
> >
> > > Not sure they're the same tools and methods available to Noah, but
> > > it's probably as close as he can get. Not that I'm defending it.
> >
> > Ron Stringfellow once said T-rex helped Noah saw wood, using its
> > teeth. No, really.

> > > What's the Amish position on evolution?

> They're basically Anabaptists, biblical literalists, and end their
> education at the end of the 8th grade, so I'm guessing that few Amish
> believe in evolution.

The A,mish in Southern Colorado have a furnature sale now and then,
and they even advertised on the Internet..... which I think is
hilarious.

[Desertphile]

No doubt Noah had a few mysterious nuts and screws left over....

[Paul J Gans]

Beautiful!

Again, I note that those who compiled the oldest books of the
old testament were not sailors and had no knowlege of the sea.
They also, more forgivably, had no notion of thermodynamics.

But God surely must have known these things. So the only
plausible answer is either that the flood story (and many
other stories) in the Bible is a just-so story invented over
the years as an attempt to depict a realy peeved God in
action, or is simply an exercise in magic with no link to
reality at all.

Our problems with creationists, as has often been observed,
is not that they believe in magic. Nothing wrong with that.
Economists do it all the time. The problem is that they
want *science* to bless their magic. And that they can't
have. Which is but one reason why they are really peeved
at science.

I'm not taking aim at religion here, just at biblical
literalists, of whom there are more than a few around
in the US.

[Harry K]

On Apr 9, 12:06�am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

> jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:52:55 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> > Lodder) wrote:
>

But...but...they did have elephants who could suck it up and spray it
out. Dunno how muchtwo elephants..ore wouild it be 7...could do
though.

Harry K

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kk1koq$mfo$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>

> More seriously, in my opinion the old testament shows many signs
> of NOT having been written by people with any real knowlege of
> the sea.

Among the many subjects of which they were ignorant. Or their
knowledge was overwritten by the desire to include popular folk tales.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kk1lgs$rge$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>

> Our problems with creationists, as has often been observed,
> is not that they believe in magic. Nothing wrong with that.
> Economists do it all the time. The problem is that they
> want *science* to bless their magic.

Economists also want to be considered scientists, at least many of
them.

[jillery]

Yeppers, and your comment illustrates a parallel; people who claim
something is Intelligently Designed rely on Revealed Truth and often
(not always) have little real knowledge of it.

[jillery]

But those are special hammers immune to atomic blasts dontchaknow?

[jillery]

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:57:43 -0700, Desertphile
<Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:47:06 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
><gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Desertphile <Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:00:27 -0700, Mike Painter
>> ><mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:12:13 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>> >> Lodder) wrote:
>>
>> >> >But they do (almost inevitably) require iron tools.
>> >> >Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
>> >> >to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
>> >> >using only hand-made bronze tools,
>> >> >and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,
>>
>> >> My lady friends house is close to 100 years old and I've broken screws
>> >> trying to screw them into the wood when I did not drill deep enough
>> >> pilot holes.
>
>> >Maybe "gopher wood" comes pre-drilled....
>
>> That's IKEA wood.
>
>No doubt Noah had a few mysterious nuts and screws left over....

...at least a pair of each kind.

[eridanus]

El martes, 9 de abril de 2013 12:21:08 UTC+1, Walter Bushell escribi�:

you are an incredulous man. The ark of Noah was miraculous as it is
proved by the fact that was made of gofer.

But without going so far, I had read in the Island of Penguins about the
life of Abbot Saint Mael who evangelized the pagans of the hyperboreal
isles used as boat a stone through that was very seaworthy and fast even
not using sails, a mast or ropes. It did not even have a rudder.

So, you better not deride the miraculous boats used by the saints, like
Saint Mael or Noah.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El martes, 9 de abril de 2013 19:50:45 UTC+1, Walter Bushell escribi�:

it is only natural. Most economists have a PhD in the Lying science.

Eridanus

[Mark Isaak]

On 4/9/13 10:56 AM, Paul J Gans wrote:
> jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> [...]

>>> The waves that hit the ark as it neared a mountain would have crushed
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Of course everyone would be dead by then as the wind would have caused
>>> the ark to go broad side and capsized it.
>
>> Yeppers. One might say the Ark was not intelligently designed, but it
>> was Intelligently Designed.
>
> If we are to have divinely inspired global flooding, why not also
> have a divinely inspired cone of silence around the ark?

That thing never works.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[Earle Jones]

In article <kk1lgs$rge$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

[...]

> Beautiful!
>
> Again, I note that those who compiled the oldest books of the
> old testament were not sailors and had no knowlege of the sea.
> They also, more forgivably, had no notion of thermodynamics.
>
> But God surely must have known these things. So the only
> plausible answer is either that the flood story (and many
> other stories) in the Bible is a just-so story invented over
> the years as an attempt to depict a realy peeved God in
> action, or is simply an exercise in magic with no link to
> reality at all.
>
> Our problems with creationists, as has often been observed,
> is not that they believe in magic. Nothing wrong with that.
> Economists do it all the time. The problem is that they
> want *science* to bless their magic. And that they can't
> have. Which is but one reason why they are really peeved
> at science.
>
> I'm not taking aim at religion here, just at biblical
> literalists, of whom there are more than a few around
> in the US.

*
Paul: Would you argue with the great Jerry Falwell:

"The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely
infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and
practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history,
etc."

--Jerry Falwell, Finding Inner Peace and Strength (p.26)

earle
*

[Paul J Gans]

I'm sure they did the equivalent. A number of tribal leaders
amassed enough wealth leading troops hired by the Romans to
life fairly fablous lives.

[Paul J Gans]

Desertphile <Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:47:06 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
><gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>> Desertphile <Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:00:27 -0700, Mike Painter
>> ><mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:12:13 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>> >> Lodder) wrote:
>>
>> >> >But they do (almost inevitably) require iron tools.
>> >> >Try to make an 8' deep 1/2' hole in hardwood,
>> >> >to secure an equally hand-made mortise and tenon,
>> >> >using only hand-made bronze tools,
>> >> >and extrapolate to a few men building a whole ark this way,
>>
>> >> My lady friends house is close to 100 years old and I've broken screws
>> >> trying to screw them into the wood when I did not drill deep enough
>> >> pilot holes.

>> >Maybe "gopher wood" comes pre-drilled....

>> That's IKEA wood.

>No doubt Noah had a few mysterious nuts and screws left over....

Better than being one short...

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 10 April 2013 01:08:33 UTC+1, Earle Jones wrote:
> Paul: Would you argue with the great Jerry Falwell:
>
> "The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely
> infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and
> practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history,
> etc."

The King James Bible says that James was King of France.
He wasn't. So much for history.

[Paul J Gans]

Certainly not! Jerry speakith and I listenith.

Although it does raise an interesting question: how come
the different translations of the New Testament into English
all have differences? Or wasn't I supposed to notice that?

[Tim Norfolk]

I thought that was the Mayflower Compact. Or is it both?

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 01:08:33 UTC+1, Earle Jones escribi�:

not even a Catholic pope dare to say such a silly thing.

Eridanus

[Mike Dworetsky]

Desertphile wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:37:09 -0700 (PDT), chris thompson
> <chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *CUT*

>
>>> He should be required to build it using only the same type tools
>>> Noah would have had plus no more than the original crew.
>>> I'll bet he couldn't make it stand if he used modern tools but was
>>> restricted to the type of fasteners Noah would use.
>>>
>>> Harry K
>

>> "The ark will be built on an 800-acre site close to Williamstown, 40
>> miles south of the office, and a study for Answers in Genesis
>> predicted that it would get 1.6 million visitors in its first year.
>> Marsh has already lined up Amish carpenters from Indiana, who are
>> among the few Americans able to erect large timber structures with

>> old-�fashioned notching and pegging techniques that don't require
>> nails or electric tools."
>

> Are there really enough Amish within horse-and-buggy distance to get
> the project done within a human life-time?
>

>> Not sure they're the same tools and methods available to Noah, but
>> it's probably as close as he can get. Not that I'm defending it.
>

> Ron Stringfellow once said T-rex helped Noah saw wood, using its
> teeth. No, really.
>

No, surely that is a fantasy. Our old friend McCoy claimed that Noah used
Bronze-Age power tools, which would make much more sense. :-)

>> What's the Amish position on evolution?
>>

>> Chris

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

[Walter Bushell]

In article <ce326a26-16f9-488b...@googlegroups.com>,

Ah, the English Royals claim the title "King of France" up through the
World Wars. Seems they lost a couple of battles but that did not
cancel the claim as they felt it was theirs by right and what can be
lost by battle can be regained by battle.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kk2ij6$lej$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

It's the Bible in the original languages that is infallible, or the
King James perhaps.

[TomS]

"On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:10:53 -0400, in article
<proto-48E071....@news.panix.com>, Walter Bushell stated..."

One standard statement refers to the "original manuscripts" of the
Bible. Which, of course, we don't have. But more problematic is
whether there ever were original manuscripts. (It's difficult enough
with even recent works to say what an original manuscript might be.
Not to mention of things like Shakespeare's plays.)


--
---Tom S.

[jillery]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:09:11 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>In article <ce326a26-16f9-488b...@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 10 April 2013 01:08:33 UTC+1, Earle Jones wrote:
>> > Paul: Would you argue with the great Jerry Falwell:
>> >
>> > "The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely
>> > infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and
>> > practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history,
>> > etc."
>>
>> The King James Bible says that James was King of France.
>> He wasn't. So much for history.
>
>Ah, the English Royals claim the title "King of France" up through the
>World Wars. Seems they lost a couple of battles but that did not
>cancel the claim as they felt it was theirs by right and what can be
>lost by battle can be regained by battle.

The world would have been a very different place had the Plantagenets
succeeded in their hereditary claims to France. Are there any
alternate history stories based on that?

[Malygris]

Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy is set in a world like that, although there are
some other differences as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Darcy_%28character%29

--
Malygris

[jillery]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:14:44 +0200, Malygris <Highlan...@gmx.de>
wrote:

Thank you for this lead. I will read one ASAP.

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 13:50:49 UTC+1, TomS escribi�:

some atheist critics had analyzed the NT since 19 century, specially in
Germany and France. They had found what they had called a "quelle" or
source for the so called synoptic gospels. Synoptic because they can be
compared in some places that were copied verbatim from a common source.
Then, we have the epistles of Paul that seemed to ignore all about the
teachings of Jesus and even his miraculous deeds. The only thing that
Paul seems to know is that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Then,
if Paul really existed, he do not knew the standard stuff that are
written in the gospels. Then, in the gospel of John, it seems that he
is seriously trying to say that Jesus was a god. Combining all this,
we can conclude that it took a time for the myth of Jesus to develop

If this is right the gospels do not represent an historical account
of the life and teachings of Jesus.

Eridanus

[John Stockwell]

On Saturday, April 6, 2013 10:47:19 PM UTC-6, jspa...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> From the article:
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Inside a faceless warehouse which houses the Answers in Genesis office, on an industrial estate at Kentucky�s northern tip, the walls are covered with drawings and plans for Noah�s Ark. According to the Bible, Noah built the ark as a lifeboat-cum-zoo after a tip-off from God that he would unleash a catastrophic flood to �destroy all flesh�: a no-nonsense punishment for badly behaved humans. Strict creationists, who reckon this happened about 4,000 years ago, say the fossil record is made up entirely of creatures that died in the flood, which spared only Noah�s family of eight and the animals he shepherded to safety on the ark.
>
>
>
> One believer is Patrick Marsh, a wiry figure of steely certitude who is responsible for the images on the Answers in Genesis walls. Marsh insists that �old earth� evolutionists are talking nonsense � and is building a 510ft-long replica of Noah�s Ark to underline the point. The wooden vessel will be the centrepiece of a biblical theme park called the Ark Encounter and he is its chief designer. The $126m project is Answers in Genesis�s attempt to show that the first book of the Bible is not a parable but a historical account whose practical elements are entirely plausible. Filling in the details, it says, will help reassert the authority of scripture�s bigger messages on life and morality.
>
> -------------------------------------
>
>
>

> Read it at http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d4bf90e-9cb3-11e2-9a4b-00144feabdc0.html#slide0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J. Spaceman

They are making a fundraising device, built with donated money, and if it doesn't work out they can torch it for the insurance and claim that "Darwinists" did it.

-John

[Burkhard]

On Apr 10, 8:33�pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 13:50:49 UTC+1, TomS �escribi�:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:10:53 -0400, in article
>

> > <proto-48E071.08105310042...@news.panix.com>, Walter Bushell stated..."
>
> > >In article <kk2ij6$le...@reader1.panix.com>,

>
> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>

> > >> Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > >> >In article <kk1lgs$rg...@reader1.panix.com>,

Eh what? The 2 source hypothesis was first proposed by Christian
Hermann Weisse, Professor for Divinity in Leipzig, author of the
influential "Small treaty on the Resurrection" (Kleines Buechlein der
Auferstehung), a defender of the theist orthodoxy in his dispute with
Fichte and his pantheism, and a reformer within the administrative
structure of the protestant church. His first follower was Christian
Gottlob Wilke, who had studied theology and philosophy, was first a
chaplain in the army, then a pastor, converted to Catholicism and
became an academic. Number three of the initial proponents was
Heinrich Holtzmann, another professor of divinity and in charge of the
training of young pastor. He was a leading member of the
Protestantenverein, the main grassroot reform movement within the
protestant church at the time, and there he was a proponent of the
reconciliation between the official church and the grassroots.

No idea where you got the idea from that German higher criticism was
an atheist invention, it was firmly rooted at the theology departments
of leading universities, its main proponents more often than not also
active pastors. Its impact of course went far beyond theology, to
history, linguistics, and the philologies.



�Synoptic because they can be

[J. J. Lodder]

Why would a pope want to a silly as an American?

Jan

[Paul J Gans]

History is tricky. I believe that James I of England (and also
the fourth of that name of Scotland) laid ritual claim to the
throne of France, as can be seen on the web page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I#Titles_and_styles

The claim to the French throne was not given up until much
much later.

--
--- Paul J. Gans, picker of nits.

[Paul J Gans]

Uh, yeah. What was its original language. We have no "original"
manuscripts no matter what various religious groups claim.

[Paul J Gans]

It seems clear, at least for biblical scholars of the old
testament, that there were several times when somebody or
some group of people got together and wrote down what was
current at the time. The first five books of the old
testament are perfect examples. The various redactors even
have knicknames bestowed upon them by (relatively) modern
scholars.

And the result has the obvious signs of having been worked
upon by a committee. Thus the two origin stories, the two
(if not more) lists of kosher food, and so on.

We've seen this process in place for the New Testament where
the "current" New Testament was put together by various synods
in the third and fourth centuries. These groups also
consigned a number of "apocraphyl" gospels to the waste heap.

Of course the various Christian groups do not necessarily
agree as to which books are gospel and which are apocraphyl.

But we like to talk about the "inerrent" bible.

[Paul J Gans]

The one with the best chance was Edward III, whose mother was
a daughter of the King of France. He was, in fact, the nearest
relative to the king. The story is an interesting one, with
the French changing the succession rules to disallow any
descent through the female line.

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 21:48:57 UTC+1, Burkhard escribi�:

sorry, Burkhard. I got this idea first time, in a book of a French
Jew Solomon Reinach, General History of Religions. Other people
criticizing the NT presented also this information. I presumed that
this was studied and presented by critics of the Christian religion.
I would be incapable of discovering this aspect of the gospels, for
my interest for them were very light. What I find by myself was that
the Jesus of John was rather different to the Jesus on the other
gospels. Another question that I discovered on my own, was that the
epistles of Paul, were weird, and it look as if Paul did not have
any knowledge about the teachings and deeds of Jesus. He only knows

that Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

So, I am not well informed about so many details as you mentioned
in your post. My interest for the gospels soon faded and I passed
to be interested in other topics.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:02:13 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder escribi�:

that's a good point.

Eridanus

[TomS]

"On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:31:18 +0000 (UTC), in article
<kk4so6$9hn$5...@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans stated..."

I was not even referring to the Documentary Hypothesis or the
Q hypothesis, but to the realization that even when we have a
clear cut case of a known author writing a book in the 20th
century, with loads of documentation, there are still
ambiguities about what would count as the correct text.


--
---Tom S.

[Robert Carnegie]

Yeah, but if you /ask/ the French? /That/ page says "He did not
actually rule France." In 1789 it got even harder.

[jillery]

Yeppers. And let's not forget where that Norman bastard William came
from.

[Tim Norfolk]

Which raises an interesting (to me) question. At what point did all of those
Russian and German immigrants to the US decide that the KJV was the 'correct'
Bible?

[Paul J Gans]

That is certainly true.

[Paul J Gans]

Yup. On the other hand, there were kings who did not always
rule most of the country they were king of...

[Burkhard]

Mhh, I think you misunderstand the whole concept of "rule over
someone". You don;t have to ask, is what I mean :o)

�/That/ page says "He did not

[Mark Isaak]

On 4/10/13 2:02 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> eridanus <leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]

>>>
>>> Paul: Would you argue with the great Jerry Falwell:
>>>
>>> "The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely
>>> infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and
>>> practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history,
>>> etc."
>>>
>>> --Jerry Falwell, Finding Inner Peace and Strength (p.26)
>>>
>>

>> not even a Catholic pope dare to say such a silly thing.
>
> Why would a pope want to a silly as an American?

Little-known fact: In the last papal election, an American was almost
chosen. That American, Cardinal Peter Haversoll, piloted a bomber in
WWII, but on his second mission he was shot down and lost an arm. He
served as a chaplain for the rest of the war. After the war, he
ministered to remote regions of Africa, piloting his own plane despite
his handicap. He was on hand Zimbabwe when there was a collapse in a
silver mine. Immediately, he rushed in to help, but he was caught in a
second collapse. After several hours he was rescued, but he had
sustained several additional injuries, including the loss of a eye, and
the exposure to silver caused several purple discolorations of his skin.

Those injuries are ultimately what disqualified him in the minds of the
other Cardinals, who felt the Church was not ready for a one-eyed,
one-armed flying purple papal leader.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[Paul J Gans]

>Which raises an interesting (to me) question. At what point did all of those
>Russian and German immigrants to the US decide that the KJV was the 'correct'
>Bible?

I have no idea. Worse, those Russian immigrants were likely Russian
Orthodox, related to Greek Orthodoxy, which has its own set of
New Testament ideas.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <asll04...@mid.individual.net>,

Malygris <Highlan...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy is set in a world like that, although there are
> some other differences as well:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Darcy_%28character%29

A few.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kk6ofu$fh7$3...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> Yup. On the other hand, there were kings who did not always
> rule most of the country they were king of...

And even in modern times we have governments in exhile, like Charles
of the Gall.

[Paul J Gans]

AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

[jillery]

OWWww-w-w-w-w w w!!!

[Tim Norfolk]

Remember the scene in 'Holy Grail', where the peasants think they're part of a collective?

[Desertphile]

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:49:12 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

> In article <kk1koq$mfo$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> > More seriously, in my opinion the old testament shows many signs
> > of NOT having been written by people with any real knowlege of
> > the sea.

Parts of the Hebrew Testament show knowledge of the sea they lived
around. They had no working knowledge of the oceans.

> Among the many subjects of which they were ignorant. Or their
> knowledge was overwritten by the desire to include popular folk tales.

Or their knowledge of history. A fine example is _Daniel_ which the
writers got their 5th century histroy all wrong, and much of their own
history (2nd century) wrong.


--
Nemo me impune lacessit.
"Let me put it this way, ['lord' Monckton is] the type of guy that masturbates
while looking at himself in the mirror." -- voicubogdan84

[Desertphile]

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:55:25 -0700, Desertphile
<Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
> <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Desertphile <Deser...@spammegmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 07:53:02 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> > ><rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> On Sunday, 7 April 2013 14:57:42 UTC+1, Ron O wrote:
> > >> > How long can they
> > >> > only have plans and keep accepting donations? They are literally
> > >> > accepting donations so that they can make money. It seems to be a
> > >> > suspect business model. Does anyone know of a similar business model
> > >> > that ever worked in any way except having the company live off the
> > >> > donations for a while? I have never heard of a multimillion dollar
> > >> > for profit company based on donations. These guys are talking about
> > >> > raising 126 million dollars. How does it work if some "donors" get a
> > >> > piece of the company profits or assets and others do not?
> >
> > >> I don't know exactly how the Roman "circus" and other festivals
> > >> operated, but I gather that prominent public figures, rulers and
> > >> would-be rulers paid for the show to be put on, and the audience
> > >> enjoys it free or subsidised. So, if you are the circus company,
> > >> apparently you're depending on donations from rich famous men
> > >> to pay you to put on a show, for which they don't get a tangible
> > >> return. But they get votes, or they just keep people happy.
> > >> As for where the money comes from originally - it may be your taxes
> > >> (ouch!), or from looting the lands conquered by the Roman Empire.
> > >>
> > >> In this case, though, presumably "donations" are like an offering
> > >> in church, in God's eyes if not those of the IRS, and you get paid
> > >> back when you get to heaven. I think that means it's not dissimilar.
>
> > >Triumphs were paid for by the poor bastard who asked the Senate if he
> > >could have one; many ancient Romans went very deep in to debt to pay
> > >for a triumph. Circuses around the time of Cato the Incorruptible were
> > >paid by politicians out of their own pockets; by the time of Cato the
> > >Younger, circuses were paid by taxation.

> > >The parallels to the USA are shocking. :-)

> > And you've not even mentioned the outsourceing of the Roman
> > army in which hired "barbarian" groups replaced Roman citizens.
> >
> > Today they are known as "contractors".

> No doubt the Germani charged the Romans $900 for a hammer, like the
> USA Army is charged today.

"$900 for Mj�lnir is a hell of a great deal! I'm Thor!" --- Thor

"*YOU'RE* sore?! We've been ripped off!" --- Ancient Roman Senate

[Paul J Gans]

Yup. Reminds me of early Christianity.

[Mike Painter]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:10:53 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>

>> Although it does raise an interesting question: how come
>> the different translations of the New Testament into English
>> all have differences? Or wasn't I supposed to notice that?

There are thousands of words that are only used once in the bible.
Most have some identifiable root word but there are several hundred
that have nothing to identify them and the meaning is a guess. Ladder
is he only one I remember and it is found in Gen 28:12

>
>It's the Bible in the original languages that is infallible, or the
>King James perhaps.

" If the King James Was Good Enough for Paul, It's Good Enough for Me!
This statement is usually made in a sarcastic manner in order to
embarrass Bible believers in their belief. The FACT is, the King James
Bible WAS good enough for Paul, as well as Peter, Luke, and Jesus
Christ"
http://www.baptistlink.com/godandcountry/kjv/kjv4paul.html

[Mike Painter]

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:49:12 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>In article <kk1koq$mfo$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>

>> More seriously, in my opinion the old testament shows many signs
>> of NOT having been written by people with any real knowlege of
>> the sea.
>

>Among the many subjects of which they were ignorant. Or their
>knowledge was overwritten by the desire to include popular folk tales.

Or it just grew.
I remember talking to a man that lived in this area before any dams
were in place and he talked about floods that went on as far as the
eye could see. I knew what he meant but if that story got taken to
some place with out hills to the West and East and Mountains to the
North and North East it might not be understood.