Can creationism be antisemitic?
wf3h
natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that Christians
who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that scientists can
be scientists while being Christian.
They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
snex
no need to be so convoluted. jews dont accept jesus as the savior,
therefore they are evil.
Perplexed in Peoria
"wf3h" <wf...@vsswireless.net> wrote in message news:1177260914....@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I am a bit puzzled. Let me paraphrase (with some distortion) to suggest
how this posting sounds to me:
A: Creationists hate everybody.
B: So what? They are harmless.
A: But since they hate everybody, that means they hate Jews too!
B. Hmmm. I hadn't realized that. We must do something to counter them!
Mark VandeWettering
Look at Ray. He thinks that everyone who simply disagrees with him is
evil. If someone hates everyone, including Jews, I think that calling
them "antisemitic" is kind of like standing hip deep in a field of dung,
selecting one cow pie and saying that the one single cow pie is the one
that offends.
Mark
Timberwoof
Uhoh. You've found a way to ridicule someone's argument that someone
else is antisemitic. Therefore you are antisemitic!
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
Level 1 Linux technical support: Read The Fscking Manual!
Level 2 Linux technical support: Write The Fscking Code Yourself!
Vend
Do all creationists really hate everyone that doesn't conform to their
belifs or simply disagree with them?
snex
do you blame the VT massacre on people you "simply disagree" with?
Vend
I don't see the relation.
DJT
To be fair, I don't see that Creationism per se is antisemetic.
Most of the Christian Creationists see the creation stories in the
Torah as being factual, and as such they don't normally call Jews
atheist, nor single them out for special hatred.
Islamic creationists, on the other hand, such as Harun Yahya do
seem to be antisemetic. That's not to say all Islamic people are
antisemetic. Also, hate groups, and white supremicists like the KKK
tend to be both creationist and anti-semetic.
In all it's not fair to make the blanket assertion that
creationists are also anti semites.
DJT
snex
you dont see the relation in blaming all the ills of society on
evolution to hate? creationists arent interested in honest debate,
they are interested in painting evolution as anti-god and therefore
evil.
Timberwoof
snex <sn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Revered" Phelps blamed the VT massacre on gay people. He doesn't claim
that the killer or any of his victims is gay, but it's still our fault.
snex
wrote:
> In article <1177266999.818425.134...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
and indeed, reverend phelps is a hate-filled individual. at least he
has the guts to admit it, unlike most creationists.
Ken Shaw
I don't know about creationists being inherently antisemitic but many
major creationists are antisemites. Harun Yahya is a holocaust denier
and Kent Hovind has quoted approvingly from the Protocols.
Ken
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by wf3h <wf...@vsswireless.net>:
I'd say that *in general* "Christian" fundamentalist
creationists can't be other than anti-Semitic, since they're
anti-everything-but-fundamentalists.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
wf3h
> > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> > the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> > call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
> > among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
>
> I am a bit puzzled. Let me paraphrase (with some distortion) to suggest
> how this posting sounds to me:
>
> A: Creationists hate everybody.
>
kinda backwards.
> B: So what? They are harmless.
well, no they're not. historically christians aren't harmless when
they believe jews are evil
>
> A: But since they hate everybody, that means they hate Jews too!
that's the talking point....
>
wf3h
Mark VandeWettering wrote:
>
> Look at Ray. He thinks that everyone who simply disagrees with him is
> evil. If someone hates everyone, including Jews, I think that calling
> them "antisemitic" is kind of like standing hip deep in a field of dung,
> selecting one cow pie and saying that the one single cow pie is the one
> that offends.
>
> Mark
good point. jews, however, seem to raise a special ire among those
christians who think everyone is evil...
wf3h
DJT wrote:
>>
> To be fair, I don't see that Creationism per se is antisemetic.
>
> Most of the Christian Creationists see the creation stories in the
> Torah as being factual, and as such they don't normally call Jews
> atheist, nor single them out for special hatred.
>
the xtian identity movement..and martin luther...both had a special
place in their respective ideologies for jews...until they realized
the jews weren't gonna convert...
jews seem to be a focus of special hatred among those xtians....like
creationists...who do hate everyone.
>
> In all it's not fair to make the blanket assertion that
> creationists are also anti semites.
>
that's true. but it does seem to be the case that they believe
everyone who doesn't believe as they do is evil...and that leads to
problems
Perplexed in Peoria
"wf3h" <wf...@vsswireless.net> wrote in message news:1177275984.3...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
> > "wf3h" <wf...@vsswireless.net> wrote in message > >
> > > Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> > > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> > > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> > > the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> > > call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
> > > among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
> >
> > I am a bit puzzled. Let me paraphrase (with some distortion) to suggest
> > how this posting sounds to me:
> >
> > A: Creationists hate everybody.
> >
> yes, they do. they also believe everyone hates them so you've got it
> kinda backwards.
Hmmm. So people who look around and try to find people who might hate them
are potentially dangerous.
> > B: So what? They are harmless.
>
> well, no they're not. historically christians aren't harmless when
> they believe jews are evil
Ah! So it is hatred of Jews, specifically, that makes hatred harmful.
> > A: But since they hate everybody, that means they hate Jews too!
>
> that's the talking point....
Yep, it sure is. You, maybe, should look in a mirror sometime.
Lorentz
> version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil?
Don't you think that qualifier, "except for the ultraorthodox," is
very important? Most Orthodox Jews believe in a literal interpretation
of Genesis. Genesis is not a specifically Christian theory of the
origin of the universe. I think a lot of less than religious Christian
sects don't believe in the Genesis version of creation either.
UltrarReligious Jews like religious Christians believe in Genesis on a
word by word basis. Your statement that Jews don't believe in the
Biblical version of creation is a total surprise to me. The sneaky
identification of Judiasm with the state of being nonreligious is
itself a sort Christian bias.
Painting Creationists as being automatically antiSemitic is not
fair, and ultimately will end up discrediting the atheistis who use
the argument. I am not a religious Jew, or even a believer of any
kind. But unfair statements have consequences even without a God. What
goes around comes around.
There is what I think to be a misrepresentation going around that
Judiasm does not include the belief in a life after death. I think
this was actually started by some nonreligious Jews. Orthodix Jews,
and even some quasireligious Jews, believe in a life after death. I
know a lot of religious Jews who believe in a word-by-word literal
interpretation of Genesis, believe in the 5000-6000 year old universe,
believe in a resurrection of the righteous at the end of times and a
resurrection of the soul before the end of times.
Perplexed in Peoria
"Lorentz" <drose...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1177277816.7...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil?
>
> Don't you think that qualifier, "except for the ultraorthodox," is
> very important? Most Orthodox Jews believe in a literal interpretation
> of Genesis. Genesis is not a specifically Christian theory of the
> origin of the universe. I think a lot of less than religious Christian
> sects don't believe in the Genesis version of creation either.
> UltrarReligious Jews like religious Christians believe in Genesis on a
> word by word basis. Your statement that Jews don't believe in the
> Biblical version of creation is a total surprise to me.
I strongly dislike your use of the phrase 'less than religious Christian
sects' and also 'UltraReligious'. I strongly doubt that any sect considers
itself less 'religious' than the sect down the street, whatever their position
on Biblical literalism.
> The sneaky
> identification of Judiasm with the state of being nonreligious is
> itself a sort Christian bias.
Is it? I would say that it is a confusion which arises because of
an ambiguity in the usage of the word Jew. It is both a religion and
an ethnic identity. This is different from the word Christian. Many
people self-identify as Jews, but admit to being atheists. No one
self-identifies as a Christian, yet will claim to be atheist. The word
Christian is purely a religious identifier, not an ethnic one. There
are atheist Gentiles of European descent, but not atheist Christians.
Steven J.
> natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that Christians
> who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that scientists can
> be scientists while being Christian.
>
Christians; I think that Ken Ham and Hugh Ross have rather more
nuanced positions. Creationists assert that natural laws can be
overridden by supernatural power and divine will, but that's not quite
the same thing as saying that natural laws don't exist. It would be
more accurate to complain that they offer no way, other than rote
acceptance of their own dogmas about which miracles had to have
occurred, and which didn't, to tell whether a given phenomenon had a
discoverable natural or a supernatural origin (that is, they leave
themselves open to the possibility of being utterly unable to find out
what those natural laws that exist actually are).
Creationists routinely insist that, in fact, one can be a scientist
and be a Christian; they offer lists of great scientists who were
Christians (and, sometimes, who allegedly accepted creationism). They
accuse atheists of creating the myth that one cannot be a scientist
and a Christian. Now, they insist that one cannot be a good Christian
while accepting "naturalistic" or "materialistic" interpretations of
the evidence (which, in practice, often means that one cannot be a
good Christian and accept that evidence actually means anything). But
one can be a Christian even while committing spiritual or intellectual
lapses. Henry M. Morris once stated explicitly that one can be a
Christian and still fall into any sin, even "evolutionism."
>
> They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
> intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
>
Quite a few people, they usually assert, simply want to get along and
be thought fashionable, so they twist the scriptures to accomodate the
latest intellectual fashions, like common descent. Creationists say
that Darwin hated God; they are not so insistent that this is true of
all Darwin's followers.
>
> Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
> among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
>
I dispute most of the premises in that last paragraph. Push them into
a corner, and most creationists will concede that you can be a
Christian, or saved, and still accept evolution; they hold that
accepting evolution tends to (but may not invariably) lead to atheism,
hopelessness, despair, nihilism and evil rather than, strictly
speaking, making you an evil atheist automatically (exceptions to this
principle in the middle of an argument make creationists inconsistent
and illogical, not anti-semitic). Of course, conversely, if a
creationist assumes that you must be an atheist if you accept
evolution, he would regard most Christians as well as most Jews as
nonbelievers and not really adherents of the faith they claim. If
that makes them "evil," then such a creationist would have to regard
most Christians as evil (but, as noted, creationists mostly don't
actually claim that).
The largest single faction of young-earth creationists today are
premillenial dispensationalists whose attitudes towards Jews is ...
interesting, but who in any case think of themselves as pro-Jewish and
favor Israel. One can, of course, find creationism coexisting with
anti-semitism, or blatant racism, but I don't think these are
consequences of purely creationist positions.
-- Steven J.
wf3h
> > > A: Creationists hate everybody.
> > >
> > yes, they do. they also believe everyone hates them so you've got it
> > kinda backwards.
>
> Hmmm. So people who look around and try to find people who might hate them
> are potentially dangerous.
not exactly. you seem to have a bit of a reading problem...or a lack
of historical awareness.
hatred of jews is not..ahem..exactly unknown among christians.
>
> > > B: So what? They are harmless.
> >
> > well, no they're not. historically christians aren't harmless when
> > they believe jews are evil
>
> Ah! So it is hatred of Jews, specifically, that makes hatred harmful.
ever try READING a history book? just curious...
>
> > > A: But since they hate everybody, that means they hate Jews too!
> >
> > that's the talking point....
>
> Yep, it sure is. You, maybe, should look in a mirror sometime.
and you should get a library card.
Perplexed in Peoria
"wf3h" <wf...@vsswireless.net> wrote in message news:1177284426.5...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
> > "wf3h" <wf...@vsswireless.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > A: Creationists hate everybody.
> > > >
> > > yes, they do. they also believe everyone hates them so you've got it
> > > kinda backwards.
> >
> > Hmmm. So people who look around and try to find people who might hate them
> > are potentially dangerous.
>
> not exactly. you seem to have a bit of a reading problem...or a lack
> of historical awareness.
>
> hatred of jews is not..ahem..exactly unknown among christians.
No it is not. Nor is hatred of Christians unknown among Jews. Admittedly,
Christian hatred of Jews did more harm historically.
> >
> > > > B: So what? They are harmless.
> > >
> > > well, no they're not. historically christians aren't harmless when
> > > they believe jews are evil
> >
> > Ah! So it is hatred of Jews, specifically, that makes hatred harmful.
>
> ever try READING a history book? just curious...
Yes I have. And as a result, I know that anti-semitism is not at the heart
of all evil in the world. There are things like the class struggle, and
nationalism, and hatred of all kinds of non-coreligionists besides Jews
that have driven history.
You, on the other hand, seem to be fixated on anti-semitism as the only
evil worth taking note of.
Frank J
> natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that Christians
> who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that scientists can
> be scientists while being Christian.
Not all creationists say that, and I doubt that any more than a small
minority of creationist leaders would ever say that. Certainly no
major IDer would. The DI embraced David Berlinski, who I think was
Jewish and is now *agnostic*.
>
> They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
> intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god..
>
> Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> call all science journal editors 'atheists'),
Do you have a reference? Not that I necessarily doubt you, but that
would be *big* news. Be careful, though, Behe is a master of
semantics, so make sure you have the full context.
> is it possible that,
> among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
My suspicion is that those Christian creationists who are anti-semitic
just use it as another excuse to bolster a prejudice that they already
have (i.e. it's correlation but not causation). Nevertheless I always
thought it strange that fundamentalist Christians are more obssessed
than Orthodox Jews about how to interpret the OT. I think even more
than can be accounted by the fact that they just outnumber them.
Frank J
> On 2007-04-22, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
>
> > Creationism seems to function on denial. It denies the existence of
> > natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that Christians
> > who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that scientists can
> > be scientists while being Christian.
>
> > They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
> > intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
>
> > Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> > the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> > call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
> > among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
>
> Look at Ray. He thinks that everyone who simply disagrees with him is
> evil.
Actually Ray wants it both ways with those who disagree with him, but
are political allies, namely the ID crowd. Sorry, can't resist:
Pseudoscience code of silence = inability to refute.
wf3h
>
> No it is not. Nor is hatred of Christians unknown among Jews. Admittedly,
> Christian hatred of Jews did more harm historically.
kind of like 'other than that, mrs. lincoln, how did you like the
play'?
>
> > >
> > > > > B: So what? They are harmless.
> > > >
> > > > well, no they're not. historically christians aren't harmless when
> > > > they believe jews are evil
> > >
> > > Ah! So it is hatred of Jews, specifically, that makes hatred harmful.
> >
> > ever try READING a history book? just curious...
>
> Yes I have. And as a result, I know that anti-semitism is not at the heart
> of all evil in the world.
(quickly casting head to right and left) holy COW!!! gee...there must
be 2 wf3h's here 'cuz i never said it was. what i DID say was that
xtians are ingenious at inventing reasons to hate jews, and for
turning against them when they object to aspects of christian theology
>
> You, on the other hand, seem to be fixated on anti-semitism as the only
> evil worth taking note of.
sigh...ah, if only i'd said those words of wisdom....
but, in all fairness, i leave them to you since i never uttered them
at all.
>
wf3h
Frank J wrote:
> On Apr 22, 12:55 pm, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
> > Creationism seems to function on denial. It denies the existence of
> > natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that Christians
> > who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that scientists can
> > be scientists while being Christian.
>
> Not all creationists say that, and I doubt that any more than a small
> minority of creationist leaders would ever say that. Certainly no
> major IDer would. The DI embraced David Berlinski, who I think was
> Jewish and is now *agnostic*.
yes, berlinski is an anti evolutionist but not a creationist. as to
what leaders are saying, it looks to me like they are treading down
the classic pathway of the xtian identity movement which started as
'some of my best friends are jews'...then changed to 'gas the
bastards' when the jews wouldn't convert.
the rants and shrieks blaming scientists for the VA shootings, for
example, can only lead one to ask what will happen should these guys
turn their attention...as they so often have...to jews.
> > >
> > Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> > the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> > call all science journal editors 'atheists'),
>
> Do you have a reference? Not that I necessarily doubt you, but that
> would be *big* news. Be careful, though, Behe is a master of
> semantics, so make sure you have the full context.
unfortunately it was during a presentation near the lehigh campus at
the episcopal cathedral church of the nativity...
>
Vend
wrote:
> "wf3h" <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote in messagenews:1177260914....@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
There are paranoid anti-semites, who see jewish conspiracies around
every corner and there are paranoid anti-anti-semites, who see anti-
semites everywhere.
Vend
I understood what you were refering to, but are all creationists such
hate-monger?
snex
the number of creationists that never play the hitler card can
probably be counted on one hand. and even then, we dont know if they
refuse to play it because they agree its bogus, or because they know
its ineffective.
in fact, off hand i can only think of sean pitman; but i havent been
here as long as most others so i may be missing a lot.
Ernest Major
<xe...@comcast.net> writes
>On Apr 23, 4:02 am, Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> wrote:
>> On 22 Apr, 20:36, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 22, 1:26 pm, Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> wrote:
>>
>> > > On 22 Apr, 20:06, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On 22 Apr, 18:55, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > Creationism seems to function on denial. It denies the existence of
>> > > > > > natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that
>> > > > > >Christians
>> > > > > > who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that
>> > > > > >scientists can
>> > > > > > be scientists while being Christian.
>>
>> > > > > > They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>>
>> > > > > > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
>> > > > > > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >heard Mike Behe
>> > > > > > call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
>> > > > > > among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
>>
>> > > > > Do all creationists really hate everyone that doesn't conform
>> > > > >to their
>> > > > > belifs or simply disagree with them?
>>
>> > > > do you blame the VT massacre on people you "simply disagree" with?
>>
>> > > I don't see the relation.
>>
>> > you dont see the relation in blaming all the ills of society on
>> > evolution to hate? creationists arent interested in honest debate,
>> > they are interested in painting evolution as anti-god and therefore
>> > evil.
>>
>> I understood what you were refering to, but are all creationists such
>> hate-monger?
>
>the number of creationists that never play the hitler card can
>probably be counted on one hand. and even then, we dont know if they
>refuse to play it because they agree its bogus, or because they know
>its ineffective.
>
>in fact, off hand i can only think of sean pitman; but i havent been
>here as long as most others so i may be missing a lot.
>
--
alias Ernest Major
Frank J
> Frank J wrote:
> > On Apr 22, 12:55 pm, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
> > > Creationism seems to function on denial. It denies the existence of
> > > natural laws operating in the world. Creationists deny that Christians
> > > who disagree with them are Christians. They deny that scientists can
> > > be scientists while being Christian.
>
> > Not all creationists say that, and I doubt that any more than a small
> > minority of creationist leaders would ever say that. Certainly no
> > major IDer would. The DI embraced David Berlinski, who I think was
> > Jewish and is now *agnostic*.
>
> yes, berlinski is an anti evolutionist but not a creationist.
Not a classic creationist, as in "direct promoter of YEC or OEC," but
an ID "creationist" just like Behe.
> as to
> what leaders are saying, it looks to me like they are treading down
> the classic pathway of the xtian identity movement which started as
> 'some of my best friends are jews'...then changed to 'gas the
> bastards' when the jews wouldn't convert.
>
> the rants and shrieks blaming scientists for the VA shootings, for
> example, can only lead one to ask what will happen should these guys
> turn their attention...as they so often have...to jews.
I can't rule it out, but these days they seem much more preoccupied
with the radical Muslims than Jews.
>
>
>
> > > Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> > > version of creation, and since creationists believe everyone who
> > > denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> > > the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> > > call all science journal editors 'atheists'),
>
> > Do you have a reference? Not that I necessarily doubt you, but that
> > would be *big* news. Be careful, though, Behe is a master of
> > semantics, so make sure you have the full context.
>
> unfortunately it was during a presentation near the lehigh campus at
> the episcopal cathedral church of the nativity...
Even if it's the way he truly feels (& I doubt it), I'd be really
surprised if he put it in print.
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
T Pagano
>Creationism seems to function on denial.
Everyone denies some things. One is obligated to deny falsity. What
do creationists deny that is true?
> It denies the existence of
>natural laws operating in the world.
Which law of nature do creationists deny?
> Creationists deny that Christians
>who disagree with them are Christians.
The disagreement often involves the so-called christian denying a
tenet of the faith.
> They deny that scientists can
>be scientists while being Christian.
ditto.
>
>They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
>intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
Non belief in creationism is merely a symptom of "evil" intent.
>Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
>version of creation,
This is irrelevent unless wf3h can demonstrate that consensus is
related to the objective truth. Atheists care nothing for the
objective truth. Truth for the atheist is what ever the mob says it
is.
>and since creationists believe everyone who
>denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
>the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
>call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
>among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
wf3h's bald assertions are designed to marginalize creationists not
refute any of their positions. He doesn't argue for their truth
because he couldn't do so if his life depended on it.
Since 1996 I can only recall a couple of opponents denying my labeling
of them an atheist. I'd love wf3h to identify where, when and under
what circumstances he heard Behe make such a claim and whether or not
the editor denied the claim.
Regards,
T Pagano
chris.li...@gmail.com
Not only that, but most creationists have to harbor yet another source
of cognitive dissonance, in that they are told to be pro-Israel, while
at the same time despising the Jew. Granted, it's only until the End
Times come, and those Israelites that don't convert will just be swept
into oblivion.
Chris
wf3h
> On 22 Apr 2007 09:55:14 -0700, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
>
> >Creationism seems to function on denial.
>
> Everyone denies some things. One is obligated to deny falsity. What
> do creationists deny that is true?
>
> > It denies the existence of
> >natural laws operating in the world.
>
> Which law of nature do creationists deny?
which DONT they deny? they deny any natural processes are responsible
for speciation. they deny any SUPPORTING processes, such as
radioactive decay/dating are accurate
>
> > Creationists deny that Christians
> >who disagree with them are Christians.
>
> The disagreement often involves the so-called christian denying a
> tenet of the faith.
in your opinion.
>
> > They deny that scientists can
> >be scientists while being Christian.
>
> ditto.
in your opinion. IOW you agree, so, QED>
>
>
>
> >They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
> >intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
>
> Non belief in creationism is merely a symptom of "evil" intent.
QED.
>
> >Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> >version of creation,
>
> This is irrelevent unless wf3h can demonstrate that consensus is
> related to the objective truth. Atheists care nothing for the
> objective truth. Truth for the atheist is what ever the mob says it
> is.
you don't know what atheists care for or dont care for. you're
stereotyping...which, again, proves my point about creationist
paranoia.
>
> >and since creationists believe everyone who
> >denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> >the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> >call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
> >among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
>
> wf3h's bald assertions are designed to marginalize creationists not
> refute any of their positions.
says the guy who, above, made bald assertions about 'atheists' (IOW
those who disagree with him).
He doesn't argue for their truth
> because he couldn't do so if his life depended on it.
you're offering support for my position. i said you're paranoid. you
are. i said you consider xtians who accept evolution to be non xtians.
you agreed above.
QED.
>
> Since 1996 I can only recall a couple of opponents denying my labeling
> of them an atheist. I'd love wf3h to identify where, when and under
> what circumstances he heard Behe make such a claim and whether or not
> the editor denied the claim.
i didn't say he accuses an editor. he accused ALL editors, in my
presence, at a lecture at the episcopal cathedral church of the
nativity in bethlehem, PA.
but, tony, you've done a WONDERFUL job of proving EXACTLY what i said
about creationists. you demonstrated EVERY characteristic i said
creationists exhibit in their paranoid hatred of science, and of other
xtians.
thanks very much.
Steven J.
>
> >Creationism seems to function on denial.
>
> Everyone denies some things. One is obligated to deny falsity. What
> do creationists deny that is true?
>
are different things. That "microevolution" and "speciation" are
different things. Given your own posting history, perhaps we should
include "that defining one's terms is important to conducting an
argument," since you've never bothered to explain what you mean by
such crucial terms as "nascent," or "calm, global-like flooding."
>
> > It denies the existence of
> >natural laws operating in the world.
>
> Which law of nature do creationists deny?
>
> > Creationists deny that Christians
> >who disagree with them are Christians.
>
> The disagreement often involves the so-called christian denying a
> tenet of the faith.
>
>
> > They deny that scientists can
> >be scientists while being Christian.
>
> ditto.
>
of creationism. At least *try*, damn it.
>
> >They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
> >intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
>
> Non belief in creationism is merely a symptom of "evil" intent.
>
to refute. Symptoms are, after all, caused by whatever they're
symptoms of, so you here attribute non-belief in creationism to "evil"
intent.
>
> >Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
> >version of creation,
>
> This is irrelevent unless wf3h can demonstrate that consensus is
> related to the objective truth. Atheists care nothing for the
> objective truth. Truth for the atheist is what ever the mob says it
> is.
>
Jews, and that (not the facticity of evolution) was the point of
wf3h's post. It is not uncommon for people to attribute to entire
groups the behavior and beliefs of most members of the group, or even
of the most outspoken and conspicuous members of the group, no matter
what the majority is like. If most Jews reject creationism, then
creationists might conclude that "Jews" in general had apostasized,
rejecting the revelation that God had given them. Please note that I
criticized this argument upthread, but at least I understood it.
In the paragraph above, your last two sentences manage the difficult
feat of displaying greater confusion than the first sentence.
Obviously, "the mob" mostly supports theism, yet atheists are defined
by not accepting belief in God as truth. Therefore, it cannot be true
that "truth for the atheist is whatever the mob says it is." Again,
you toss that term "objective truth" around, with no indication that
it can be defended (indeed, no indication that you would define it) as
anything other than "the subjective beliefs or preferences of Tony
Pagano." Of course, it is almost surely correct that most atheists
care nothing for your personal subjective beliefs or preferences, if
only because most atheists have never heard of you. A lot of atheists
(I am not sure about "most," much less "all," atheists) hold that
"truth," or at least "fact," is that which is supported by converging
lines of strong evidence, and care rather strongly about it.
>
> >and since creationists believe everyone who
> >denies creationism is evil, do creationists think Jews are evil? With
> >the hatred that spews forth from creationism (I myself heard Mike Behe
> >call all science journal editors 'atheists'), is it possible that,
> >among its other many faults, creationism is inherently antisemitic?
>
> wf3h's bald assertions are designed to marginalize creationists not
> refute any of their positions. He doesn't argue for their truth
> because he couldn't do so if his life depended on it.
>
Oddly, you don't argue against the truth of wf3h's assertions. You
don't argue for the truth of any creationist positions. And why
should not creationism be marginalized? It is a grossly aberrant way
of thinking, holding that evidence means nothing unless it confirms
arbitrary dogma.
>
> Since 1996 I can only recall a couple of opponents denying my labeling
> of them an atheist. I'd love wf3h to identify where, when and under
> what circumstances he heard Behe make such a claim and whether or not
> the editor denied the claim.
>
> Regards,
> T Pagano
-- Steven J.
snex
>
> > >They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
> > >intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
>
> > Non belief in creationism is merely a symptom of "evil" intent.
>
> Again, you don't seem to be disagreeing with the person you're trying
> to refute. Symptoms are, after all, caused by whatever they're
> symptoms of, so you here attribute non-belief in creationism to "evil"
> intent.
>
if he were trying to refute it, he would have changed the subject line.
Ye Old One
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
>On 22 Apr 2007 09:55:14 -0700, wf3h <wf...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
>
>>Creationism seems to function on denial.
>
>Everyone denies some things. One is obligated to deny falsity. What
>do creationists deny that is true?
Science.
>
>
>> It denies the existence of
>>natural laws operating in the world.
>
>Which law of nature do creationists deny?
All of them.
>
>
>> Creationists deny that Christians
>>who disagree with them are Christians.
>
>The disagreement often involves the so-called christian denying a
>tenet of the faith.
>
>
>> They deny that scientists can
>>be scientists while being Christian.
>
>ditto.
>
>>
>>They attribute non-belief in creationism to evil intent. Everyone is
>>intent on destroying creationist fundamentalism. Everyone hates god.
>
>
>Non belief in creationism is merely a symptom of "evil" intent.
Non belief in creationism is a sign of common sense.
>
>>Since Jews (except for the ultra orthodox) do not accept the Xtian
>>version of creation,
>
>This is irrelevent unless wf3h can demonstrate that consensus is
>related to the objective truth. Atheists care nothing for the
>objective truth. Truth for the atheist is what ever the mob says it
>is.
Nope.
--
Bob.
Lorentz
> an ambiguity in the usage of the word Jew. It is both a religion and
> an ethnic identity. This is different from the word Christian. Many
> people self-identify as Jews, but admit to being atheists. No one
> self-identifies as a Christian, yet will claim to be atheist. The word
> Christian is purely a religious identifier, not an ethnic one. There
> are atheist Gentiles of European descent, but not atheist Christians.
and an ethnic identity is confusing, and has caused a lot of trouble.
Here Christian and Jew are responsible. An atheist Jew should not
present his beliefs as representing Judiasm (i.e., the religion). I
have always tried to avoid doing that. However, others have done so
and the damage spreads. There are antiSemites who have adapted the
statements of the atheist Jews (the ones who hide behind the religious
Jews) for their own purposes. I know Hitler did. I try to take
responsibility for my irreligious beliefs myself.
The poster was evidently referring to the religion. I was
pointing out that the Jewish religion was not that different than the
Christian religion in regard to Creation. There are even some
similarities between the religious concepts of an afterlife.
Statements taking the differences out of context are not helpful. Most
Creationists understand the similarity.
There are religious differences that further confuse the
issue. I think some of the confusion concerns the afterlife. Both
religious Jews and religious Christians believe in a Judgement Day, a
time when sinners including atheists are thrown into Hell. In some
Christian tradition, the righteous go through an intermediate stage of
the afterlife called Heaven that precedes Judgement Day. In some
Jewish tradition, the intermediate stage in the afterlife is
reincarnation. I am talking of course about very specific sects within
the religions, but the imagery sort of leaks into the surrounding
subculture. The belief in reincarnation as opposed to Heaven, both
being merely holding cells for the righteous, can be twisted into
"Jews don't believe in the afterlife." I think sometimes it has, and
that has fed into other sources of confusion.