OT: In Memory of D-Day (bit late), and why I feel so lucky to be alive....

[jonathan]

A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
been born.

My dad flew in a B-24 in the Philippines during WW2.
And when I recounted the awful facts of just the first...four
missions that occurred at the time of his deployment, my dad
walking into this must have felt the chances of surviving
so many missions would be about zero.


...............................

My Dad's First Month in Combat!

General MacArthur, in keeping his famous promise, steadily
advanced from one Pacific Island to another, so the 307th
Bombardment Group, the Long Rangers "Jungle Air Force"
moved along with him.

His base at Wadke Island Aerodrome, just off the coast
of New Guinea, was the last 'island hop' for his group
before the big invasion of the Philippines.

His unit, the 307th, was comprised of 4 Bomber Squadrons,
of 8 planes each, the 370th, 371st, 372nd and his unit, the 424th.
http://www.307bg.net/

October 1944 was the most disastrous month in the entire history
of the unit to this day. They serve as his introduction to the war,
and what he would be facing during his ...42 total missions
over the next 6 months. The following is from the original mission
reports.


OCT 3 Mission.

The 370th, 371st, 372nd and 424th squadrons attacked
the crucial Balakapapan oil fields. Source of 13% of the entire
Japanese oil and gas supplies, considered the 'Ploesti' of the
Japanese Empire, and one of the most vital targets of the
entire Pacific war. And it was defended by the Japanese
'fanatically' according to the group commander.

370th Squadron mission results;

"It is impossible to rate this mission as only one
of our planes over the target returned to base."

371st Squadron mission results.

"Fifteen minutes before the bomb run, the squadron
was attacked for an hour and a half by numerous relays of
enemy fighters of 40-50 planes in each relay. Some enemy
fighters flew above the formation and dropped several
phosphorus bombs accurately.

A/C #599 Lt Connell, pilot, was attacked by a Zeke
from 2 o'clock high and was hit in the #1 engine which
was seen to smoke and flame. Friendly submarine reported
that it picked up 10 men of the 11-man crew.

"A/C # 955 Lt Kates, pilot, was observed to receive
a direct AA hit just prior to bombs away, and fire broke
out at the left wing root. The plane fell off in flames and
crashes, three men were seen to bail out.

A/C # 568, Lt Kendall, pilot, was attacked by a Zeke over
the target, and hit in #3 engine, the plane fell off to the left
and was immediately attacked by 3 or 4 fighters. The plane
caught fire, and 3 or 4 men were observed to parachute
just before the plane exploded in the air.

A/C # 565, Lt Wright, pilot, was attacked by enemy fighters
and lost #2 engine, just prior to bombs away; the plane
went into a steep right bank and crashed into the water.
One chute was seen to open.

A/C # 6t14, Lt. Rourie, pilot, had #3 engine on fire over
the target, and appeared to have control damage from AA.
Two parachutes were sighted a few minutes later in the
water. A Jap seaplane was also observed to be circling
this position.

A/C #101 Lt Rider, pilot, was rammed in the right wing
by an enemy fighter, during the bomb run, part of the
right wing came off, and the Liberator turned on its back
and went into a dive and crashed near the target, no
chutes were seen.

This Kamikaze attack was photographed and published
by the AP nation wide.

B-24 shot down "Over the Philippines"
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/307th-bg-liberator-going-down-over-philipines-31642.html

Lt Wheeler's plane, a 20mm shell exploded in their
cockpit, paralyzing the right leg and arm of the pilot
and the co-pilot was bleeding so badly he became
barely conscious. With one engine out and the help
of the engineer, they managed to keep flying
for the 6 hours it took to get back, and somehow
landed safely. In the words of the group commander...

"Some crews have it, some crews don't.
This crew had it...in large quantities."

"307th gunners shot down 23 aircraft."
"On the Oct 3 raid, 21% of all personal that started out
have not returned. 29% of the airplanes that day
will never fly again. In all 12 planes were lost in
combat, one crashed on take off, and 32 were
damaged."

In conclusion, the mission report reads...

"Is is doubtful that a more dangerous, grueling and heart-breaking
mission has ever been performed in any theater of war. This report
can by no means adequately reflect the feast of individual heroism
and bravery displayed, which are too numerous to mention."

"Awards for September and October, 1944
307th Bombardment Group;"

Air Medals 123
Oak Leaf Clusters 19
Distinguished Flying Cross 1
Purple Hearts 8

Oct Unit Report
http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/October44_Hist_Record-424bs.pdf

......................................


OCT 26 Mission:

All 4 squadrons were sent out to search for enemy shipping.

"Just as the 307th formation entered the Sulu Sea, a message
was picked up from "Peggy 2" to intercept a unit of 6 vessels.
26 miles East of the formation.The group leader spotted what
he thought was a flotilla of heavy and light cruisers, so he barged
right in. Major John Neely held course for a few minutes
then "crossed the T" of the enemy task force.

But it turned out to be a fleet of battleships. The Battleships
Yamato, the largest ever built, the 'smaller' Nagato with
her 16 inch guns, and the Battleships Kongo and Haruna
along with several heavy cruisers. The bulk of the entire
Japanese navy.

Battleship Yamato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGy5ApynvBw&feature=player_embedded

Oct 26th mission results;

"In as much as this is the first time heavy bombardment
squadrons have taken under attack major units of the
Jap battle fleet, it is thought of interest to record in detail
and to diagram the actions of the two forces."

"This bombing is rated as excellent. 28 Liberators, 7 each
from the 370th, 371st, 372nd and 424th attacked the flotilla.
AA Fire; Intense, heavy and accurate. It was of the barrage
type and composed of different type bursts, being black,
yellow, orange and gold, as well as white." Major Neely
promptly began a loss of 500' of altitude and a turn to the
left into his bombing run. This proved to be extremely
effective. It is felt that the losses from AA might have been
much heavier then they were."

"The first sections of the group, consisting of the 370th and
372nd took on the Konga Class Battleships, while the
371st and 424nd attacked the Yamato two minutes later.
The Yamato continued in a tight 360 degree turn while
the Konga made a tight "S" turn."

Lt Hicks was hit by flack just as the bomb run began.
It struck midway between the bomb bay and tail, the
plane began to smoke, a few seconds later the tail
of the plane burst into flames and went into a spin.
One man was seen to have jumped out but no
parachute was seen to open.

Lt Jones was hit over the target. However this plane
was reported to drop its bombs on the target.
It later burst into flames and was last seen falling
into the sea enveloped in flames. No men were
seen bailing out.

Lt Sutphin received a burst of AA in the # 3
engine during the bomb run. The pilot was able
to keep the plane in flight for an hour and a half
It was reported this aircraft lost its # 4 engine
at this time. The plane went into a spin and crashed
into the sea. Three men were seen to bail out of
this plane. One man's chute became tangled with
the disabled aircraft, a second became enmeshed
in his chute, and the third man was dragged along
for about 500 yards through the water until the chute
collapsed.

A total of 3 of 7 B-24's from the 424th were lost
1 more crashed on take-off and 14 were damaged by
AA fire."

http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/26oct44_Diagram_Jap_Fleet.pdf

Oct 26 Group report
http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/27oct44_307_353D-Group.pdf


On his 4th mission, on Nov 6, he shot down his first fighter!

"Got one for sure" his log book reads.

He was on the right waist gun and flying a formation
of 6 B-24's at 12,500 feet in a modified box formation
with 2 P-47 escorts. And 7 hours from base his squadron
was attacked by 20 jap fighters.

The Zeke came in from behind, between 5 and 7 o'clock level.
After the burst, it started to smoke badly, banked right and
went into a steep vertical dive. It was last seen going into
the clouds at 4000 feet trailing thick black smoke. Because
of the cloud cover, it was credited as a 'probable'.

The enemy fighters made 15 or 20 more passes at his plane
all from behind. The P-47 escorts shot down two of them

Nov 6 Mission Report
http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/6nov44_307_357-372sq.pdf


He still had 38 more missions, 367 hours of flight time
and five more months left to go!


Thanks for reading.


s

[Thrinaxodon]

On Jun 7, 10:22 pm, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> been born.
>
> My dad flew in a B-24 in the Philippines during WW2.
> And when I recounted the awful facts of just the first...four
> missions that occurred at the time of his deployment, my dad
> walking into this must have felt the chances of surviving
> so many missions would be about zero.
>
> ...............................
>
> My Dad's First Month in Combat!
>
> General MacArthur, in keeping his famous promise, steadily
> advanced from one Pacific Island to another, so the 307th
> Bombardment Group, the Long Rangers "Jungle Air Force"
> moved along with him.
>
> His base at Wadke Island Aerodrome, just off the coast
> of New Guinea, was the last 'island hop' for his group
> before the big invasion of the Philippines.
>
> His unit, the 307th, was comprised of 4 Bomber Squadrons,

> of 8 planes each, the 370th, 371st, 372nd and his unit, the 424th.http://www.307bg.net/

> B-24 shot down "Over the Philippines"http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/307th-bg-liberator-going-do...

> Oct  Unit Reporthttp://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/October44_Hist_Record-4...

>
> ......................................
>
> OCT 26 Mission:
>
> All 4 squadrons were sent out to search for enemy shipping.
>
> "Just as the 307th formation entered the Sulu Sea, a message
> was picked up from "Peggy 2" to intercept a unit of 6 vessels.
> 26 miles East of the formation.The group leader spotted what
> he thought was a flotilla of heavy and light cruisers, so he barged
> right in.  Major John Neely held course for a few minutes
> then "crossed the T" of the enemy task force.
>
> But it turned out to be a fleet of battleships. The Battleships
> Yamato, the largest ever built, the 'smaller' Nagato with
> her 16 inch guns, and the Battleships Kongo and Haruna
> along with several heavy cruisers. The bulk of the entire
> Japanese navy.
>

> Battleship Yamatohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGy5ApynvBw&feature=player_embedded

> http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/26oct44_Diagram_Jap_Fle...
>
> Oct 26 Group reporthttp://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/27oct44_307_353D-Group.pdf

>
> On his 4th mission, on Nov 6,  he shot down his first fighter!
>
> "Got one for sure"  his log book reads.
>
> He was on the right waist gun and flying a formation
> of 6 B-24's at 12,500 feet in a modified box formation
> with 2 P-47 escorts. And 7 hours from base his squadron
> was attacked by 20 jap fighters.
>
> The Zeke came in from behind, between 5 and 7 o'clock level.
> After the burst, it started to smoke badly, banked right and
> went into a steep vertical dive. It was last seen going into
> the clouds at 4000 feet trailing thick black smoke. Because
> of the cloud cover, it was credited  as a 'probable'.
>
> The enemy fighters made 15 or 20 more passes at his plane
> all from behind. The P-47 escorts shot down two of them
>

> Nov 6 Mission Reporthttp://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/6nov44_307_357-372sq.pdf

>
> He still had 38 more missions, 367 hours of flight time
> and five more months left to go!
>
> Thanks for reading.
>
> s

Good for you. Now, want a cookie.

["Want a cookie," is from an old friend of mine, I haven't seen in
years.]

--
Thrinaxodon
[Creationists] make it sound as though a "theory" is something you
dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov

[*Hemidactylus*]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostery


--
*Hemidactylus*- Hey, let's be careful out there (HSB):
http://siteinspector.comodo.com/
http://csi.websense.com/
http://safeweb.norton.com/
http://www.virustotal.com/en/#url

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Friday, June 7, 2013 10:22:11 PM UTC-4, jonathan wrote:
> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>
> been born.

[snip]
> Thanks for reading.

The World owes your Father more than he can imagine. Thank him for me.

Mitchell Coffey

[*Hemidactylus*]

Me too.

[J. J. Lodder]

Your account is highly exaggerated
and gives a misleading impression.
Standard accounts report for the oct 3 1944 raid:
40 B-24s in, 50 tons dropped, 7 B-24s lost, 24 Japanese fighters lost.
The first raid of tha campaign on oct 3 went in without fighter escort,
which was a bad mistake.

For the entire oct 1944 Balikpapan campaign: (5 raids)
321 B-24 in, 430 tons dropped, 22 B-24s lost,
with three P-38s and 6 P-47s also lost.
In all 97 Japanese fighters (claimed) lost.
16 US crewman were saved by USS Mingo.

Not at all comparable with the disastrous Ploiesti raid:
177 B-24s at take-off, 162 over target, 53 lost.
(440 airman killed, 220 POW)

Jan

[Walter Bushell]

In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,

"jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> been born.

Count no man happy until he is dead.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[jonathan]

"J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:1l457oe.1tb...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...

> jonathan <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> "307th gunners shot down 23 aircraft."
>> "On the Oct 3 raid, 21% of all personal that started out
>> have not returned. 29% of the airplanes that day
>> will never fly again. In all 12 planes were lost in
>> combat, one crashed on take off, and 32 were
>> damaged."
>>

>> Oct Unit Report
>> http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/October44_Hist_Record-424bs.pdf
>>
>> ......................................
>>
>
> Your account is highly exaggerated

The paragraph above showing the losses is a direct
quote of the original mission report filed shortly after
the mission. And pretty much agrees with your numbers.
The point is that some 20% of the flyers that went out
that day died in ....one mission.

> and gives a misleading impression.
> Standard accounts report for the oct 3 1944 raid:
> 40 B-24s in, 50 tons dropped, 7 B-24s lost, 24 Japanese fighters lost.
> The first raid of tha campaign on oct 3 went in without fighter escort,
> which was a bad mistake.

40 divided by 7 is almost 20% losses, not counting the one
that crashed on take off. I don't see the big difference in numbers?
But you're right, it was a big mistake, and thankfully they changed
tactics after that to limit losses.

>
> For the entire oct 1944 Balikpapan campaign: (5 raids)
> 321 B-24 in, 430 tons dropped, 22 B-24s lost,
> with three P-38s and 6 P-47s also lost.
> In all 97 Japanese fighters (claimed) lost.
> 16 US crewman were saved by USS Mingo.
>
> Not at all comparable with the disastrous Ploiesti raid:
> 177 B-24s at take-off, 162 over target, 53 lost.
> (440 airman killed, 220 POW)
>

177 divided by 53 is about 30% losses, it compares
as to the loss rate and significance of the target
pretty well. Not on the same scale though.

On the next mission, 4 out of 7 planes of my dad's squadron
were shot down on that one mission attacking the Yamato.

And their missions typically consisted of flying 6 or 8 hours
over water and attacking some target, hence their unit name
"The Long Rangers". Just imagine how easy it would be to suffer
damage during the bomb run that would make the 6 or 8 hour
return flight ...over water a problem.

And my dad had to fly 42 total missions, that's why I
feel so lucky to be here to talk about it.






> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[jonathan]

"Walter Bushell" <pr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:proto-DAB15A....@news.panix.com...

> In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>> been born.
>
> Count no man happy until he is dead.

The way I look at things is that ...this is Heaven, we're
already there, and every day is another step in The Garden.

[chris thompson]

My dad trained- and was an instructor- as a navigator on B17s. On June
6, he flew 4 missions in B26's. When he protested that he had never
navigated a B26, the mission commander got in his face (according to
my dad's story) and said, "Thompson! Do you think that 10 feet is
going to make a difference? Get is the fu**ing aircraft!"

Chris

[Paul J Gans]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>> been born.

>Count no man happy until he is dead.

That's a little Grimm, isn't it?

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[Paul J Gans]

chris thompson <chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

Given that you are here, I assume that your dad was successful?

:-)


I remember the radio broadcasts from England on D-Day. Of course
what could be said was heavily censored and what came through
was bristling with inordinate optimism, but the drama of it came
through loud and clear.

The war seemed interminable to me. Counting from 1941, it had
occupied about half my life, and worse, the more sentient half.
But even so, we knew it would yet be a long slog. We had North
Africa as a reminder.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Sophoclean.

You've heard the story of Oedipus Rex? The man had everything, until
he got news so bad he tore his eyes out one by one, a tragic end to a
loyal son who loved his mother.

[Bill]

On Jun 9, 6:37 pm, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <kp05nd$ld...@reader1.panix.com>,

>  Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:

> > >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_MnZ2dnUVZ_qCdn...@giganews.com>,

> > > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> > >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> > >> been born.
>
> > >Count no man happy until he is dead.
>
> > That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
>
> Sophoclean.
>
> You've heard the story of Oedipus Rex? The man had everything, until
> he got news so bad he tore his eyes out one by one, a tragic end to a
> loyal son who loved his mother.
>
> --
> Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
>  me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

The story comes from Herodotus and describes a conversation between
Solon, a Greek responsible for early laws in Athens, and Croesus, the
King of Lydia. You can find the relevant excerpt from Herodotus at
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-creususandsolon.asp

[wiki trix]

On Jun 7, 10:22 pm, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> been born.
>
> My dad flew in a B-24 in the Philippines during WW2.
> And when I recounted the awful facts of just the first...four
> missions that occurred at the time of his deployment, my dad
> walking into this must have felt the chances of surviving
> so many missions would be about zero.
>
> ...............................
>
> My Dad's First Month in Combat!
>
> General MacArthur, in keeping his famous promise, steadily
> advanced from one Pacific Island to another, so the 307th
> Bombardment Group, the Long Rangers "Jungle Air Force"
> moved along with him.
>
> His base at Wadke Island Aerodrome, just off the coast
> of New Guinea, was the last 'island hop' for his group
> before the big invasion of the Philippines.
>
> His unit, the 307th, was comprised of 4 Bomber Squadrons,

> of 8 planes each, the 370th, 371st, 372nd and his unit, the 424th.http://www.307bg.net/

> B-24 shot down "Over the Philippines"http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/307th-bg-liberator-going-do...

> Oct  Unit Reporthttp://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/October44_Hist_Record-4...

>
> ......................................
>
> OCT 26 Mission:
>
> All 4 squadrons were sent out to search for enemy shipping.
>
> "Just as the 307th formation entered the Sulu Sea, a message
> was picked up from "Peggy 2" to intercept a unit of 6 vessels.
> 26 miles East of the formation.The group leader spotted what
> he thought was a flotilla of heavy and light cruisers, so he barged
> right in.  Major John Neely held course for a few minutes
> then "crossed the T" of the enemy task force.
>
> But it turned out to be a fleet of battleships. The Battleships
> Yamato, the largest ever built, the 'smaller' Nagato with
> her 16 inch guns, and the Battleships Kongo and Haruna
> along with several heavy cruisers. The bulk of the entire
> Japanese navy.
>

> Battleship Yamatohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGy5ApynvBw&feature=player_embedded

> http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/26oct44_Diagram_Jap_Fle...
>
> Oct 26 Group reporthttp://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/27oct44_307_353D-Group.pdf

>
> On his 4th mission, on Nov 6,  he shot down his first fighter!
>
> "Got one for sure"  his log book reads.
>
> He was on the right waist gun and flying a formation
> of 6 B-24's at 12,500 feet in a modified box formation
> with 2 P-47 escorts. And 7 hours from base his squadron
> was attacked by 20 jap fighters.
>
> The Zeke came in from behind, between 5 and 7 o'clock level.
> After the burst, it started to smoke badly, banked right and
> went into a steep vertical dive. It was last seen going into
> the clouds at 4000 feet trailing thick black smoke. Because
> of the cloud cover, it was credited  as a 'probable'.
>
> The enemy fighters made 15 or 20 more passes at his plane
> all from behind. The P-47 escorts shot down two of them
>

> Nov 6 Mission Reporthttp://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/6nov44_307_357-372sq.pdf

>
> He still had 38 more missions, 367 hours of flight time
> and five more months left to go!
>
> Thanks for reading.
>
> s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwby-XvzpH8

[Paul J Gans]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
>> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>> >> been born.
>>
>> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
>>
>> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?

>Sophoclean.

>You've heard the story of Oedipus Rex? The man had everything, until
>he got news so bad he tore his eyes out one by one, a tragic end to a
>loyal son who loved his mother.

Another drama queen, that one. As is often pointed out, you
can't unsee anything.

[Bob Casanova]

On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:

>In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
>> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>> >> been born.
>>
>> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
>>
>> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
>
>Sophoclean.

Sounds like a thought detergent...

>You've heard the story of Oedipus Rex? The man had everything, until
>he got news so bad he tore his eyes out one by one, a tragic end to a
>loyal son who loved his mother.

So be sweet and kind to mother,
now and then have a chat.
Buy her candy or some flowers
or a brand new hat.
But maybe you had better
let it go at that...!

Ya gotta love Lehrer... ;-)
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[John S. Wilkins]

Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:

> On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
>
> >In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> >> >> been born.
> >>
> >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
> >>
> >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
> >
> >Sophoclean.
>
> Sounds like a thought detergent...

I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.

>
> >You've heard the story of Oedipus Rex? The man had everything, until
> >he got news so bad he tore his eyes out one by one, a tragic end to a
> >loyal son who loved his mother.
>
> So be sweet and kind to mother,
> now and then have a chat.
> Buy her candy or some flowers
> or a brand new hat.
> But maybe you had better
> let it go at that...!
>
> Ya gotta love Lehrer... ;-)


--

John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

[J. J. Lodder]

John S. Wilkins <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:

> Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
> > in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
> >
> > >In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> > >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> > >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> > >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> > >> >> been born.
> > >>
> > >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
> > >>
> > >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
> > >
> > >Sophoclean.
> >
> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
>
> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.

Yes, and Wittgenstein must be just another of those boring German beers,

Jan

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kp2enr$1ui$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> >> >> been born.
> >>
> >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
> >>
> >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
>
> >Sophoclean.
>
> >You've heard the story of Oedipus Rex? The man had everything, until
> >he got news so bad he tore his eyes out one by one, a tragic end to a
> >loyal son who loved his mother.
>
> Another drama queen, that one. As is often pointed out, you
> can't unsee anything.

But the thing is the future is unknown. If you suicide today you can
choose a painless method and tomorrow you may burn to death or start
staving to death etcetera. I am living in a browstone at 119 street
and there was an earthquake up here in a few years before the subway
got here. If that happens my building may be flattened and I will be
trapped in the rubble. There will be no help because the devestation
will be so great as to overwhelm any response from the government or
any other agency, square miles of collapsed buildings is going to
overwhelm anything. In which case, if I don't die immediately, then I
die by starvation or thirst, or by fire.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <1l48yba.1exqabse5zbb4N%jo...@wilkins.id.au>,

jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:

> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
>
> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.

In any event brainwashing is not that bad we all carry memes that are
input by society (Except me, all of *my* memes exactly correspond to
reality.) and getting them out would be a relief.

OTGH, can society function if the bulk of the population has a clear
grasp of reality?

[Kermit]

On 10 June, 09:18, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <1l48yba.1exqabse5zbb4N%j...@wilkins.id.au>,

>  j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>
> > > Sounds like a thought detergent...
>
> > I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.
>
> In any event brainwashing is not that bad we all carry memes that are
> input by society (Except me, all of *my* memes exactly correspond to
> reality.) and getting them out would be a relief.
>
> OTGH, can society function if the bulk of the population has a clear
> grasp of reality?

I might at one time have had some trouble answering that in a
satisfactory manner. But I can now unequivocatingly say that if we had
a clear grasp of reality, we as a species would almost certainly have
a better time than the one we're in for.

Unsustainable processes put the lie to the old saying "What you don't
know can't hurt you".

>
> --
> Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
>  me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

kermit

[Paul J Gans]

Not at all. It is what you pour Wittgen beer into so that you
can drink it.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:06:59 +0200, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):

No, no! *Wittgen* is the beer; Wittgenstein is just an
example of the German penchant for stringing words together.

[J. J. Lodder]

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> >John S. Wilkins <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
>
> >> Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
> >> > in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
> >> >
> >> > >In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> >> > >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> >> > >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> >> > >> >> been born.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
> >> > >
> >> > >Sophoclean.
> >> >
> >> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
> >>
> >> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.
>
> >Yes, and Wittgenstein must be just another of those boring German beers,
>
> Not at all. It is what you pour Wittgen beer into so that you
> can drink it.

Your mistake, he became so British that he drank tea.
For proof see:
<http://www.zazzle.fr/simplement_tasse_de_wittgenstein-16815432649636696
6>

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:06:59 +0200, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder):
>
> >John S. Wilkins <jo...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
> >
> >> Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
> >> > in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
> >> >
> >> > >In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
> >> > >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> >> > >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> >> > >> >> been born.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
> >> > >
> >> > >Sophoclean.
> >> >
> >> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
> >>
> >> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.
> >
> >Yes, and Wittgenstein must be just another of those boring German beers,
>
> No, no! *Wittgen* is the beer; Wittgenstein is just an
> example of the German penchant for stringing words together.

Your mistake too:
'Stein' for mug is an English pseudo-German neologism.
A German will be puzzled indeed
when you ask for Ein Stein bier,

Jan

[Paul J Gans]

Yeah, but being blind won't help that in any way?

[Paul J Gans]

I love it!

I especially love it because it is a French web page selling
a cup on which the printing is in English.

DeGaulle would have gone mad over it... ;-)

[Paul J Gans]

Well, that's all relative.

By the way, Zwei Stein bier is twice as good.

[James Beck]

What would they bring if you asked for ein stein pils?

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:10:54 PM UTC-4, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
>
> > in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
>
> >
>
> > >In article <kp05nd$ldm$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>
> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:

[snip]

> > >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
>
> > >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
>
> > >Sophoclean.
>
> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
>

> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnoff.
[snip]

Plato is a soft, squishy children's modeling clay that resembles an adult's brain after too much Smirnoff.

Mitchell

[Tim Norfolk]

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:50:22 PM UTC-4, James Beck wrote:
<snip>

> What would they bring if you asked for ein stein pils?

If you pronounced it badly, one of those stone mushrooms for garden gnomes.

[Tim Norfolk]

On Friday, June 7, 2013 10:22:11 PM UTC-4, jonathan wrote:

<snip for brevity>

My Dad and his twin brother were drafted in November 1944, so just missed D-Day (once basic training and assignments were done). My uncle, a terrible seagoer, ended up in the Canadian part of the invasion fleet for Japan, and came home with a Japanese bride.

My father went to Germany, where he was regularly attacked by the Hitler Youth, and came home with a Prussian bride. He went on to be attacked by terrorists/freedom fighters in Egypt, then Cyprus, then Aden (South Yemen). He completed his penultimate tour being shot at by his own countrymen in Londonderry, Northern Ireland.

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes, very strange. Google says that it is a .com.uk page,
but when you click it you get the .fr page.

It is all a vast conspriracy,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Very handy, those Germans,

Jan

[James Beck]

Your answer made me laugh, so it's almost worth not learning the
answer to my question. Maybe Burkhard knows.

[chris thompson]

On Jun 8, 5:04 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 8, 12:11?am, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 06/08/2013 12:09 AM, Mitchell Coffey wrote:
>
> >> > On Friday, June 7, 2013 10:22:11 PM UTC-4, jonathan wrote:
> >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>
> >> >> been born.
> >> > [snip]
> >> >> Thanks for reading.
>
> >> > The World owes your Father more than he can imagine. Thank him for me.
>
> >> Me too.
>
> >> --

> >> *Hemidactylus*- Hey, let's be careful out there (HSB):http://siteinspector.comodo.com/http://csi.websense.com/http://safewe...

> >My dad trained- and was an instructor- as a navigator on B17s. On June
> >6, he flew 4 missions in B26's. When he protested that he had never
> >navigated a B26, the mission commander got in his face (according to
> >my dad's story) and said, "Thompson! Do you think that 10 feet is
> >going to make a difference? Get is the fu**ing aircraft!"
>
> Given that you are here, I assume that your dad was successful?
>
> :-)

He was successful as a navigator. He was originally slated to be a
pilot, but on his first flight he made a perfect 3-point landing.
WHAM! (If you don't know, the rear wheels are supposed to touched down
first, and you bring the nose wheel down gently). And when they found
out about his technical bent, they made him a navigator.

>
> I remember the radio broadcasts from England on D-Day.  Of course
> what could be said was heavily censored and what came through
> was bristling with inordinate optimism, but the drama of it came
> through loud and clear.

I've listened to some of those. Chilling.

>
> The war seemed interminable to me.  Counting from 1941, it had
> occupied about half my life, and worse, the more sentient half.
> But even so, we knew it would yet be a long slog.  We had North
> Africa as a reminder.

Oh, yes. And Italy, after that.

Chris

[jillery]

Chevy Chase: That's Play-Doh, not Plato.
Emily Litella: What? Oh! Nevermind |:-)

[Paul J Gans]

That is certain. The problem is to identify the
conspirators.

[Earle Jones]

In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_M...@giganews.com>,
"jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> been born.
>

> My dad flew in a B-24 in the Philippines during WW2.
> And when I recounted the awful facts of just the first...four
> missions that occurred at the time of his deployment, my dad
> walking into this must have felt the chances of surviving
> so many missions would be about zero.

[...]

*
War is hell, Jonathan.

As I recall, after WWII, the 307th returned to McChord AFB in Washington
state. In June of 1950, the Korean war got underway. The 307th, now
outfitted with B-29s, along with the 19th from Guam and one more bomb
group, were transferred to Kadena, Okinawa -- the big B-29 base there.

I arrived at Kadena about a month later and set up the AN/APQ-13 shop.
This was the bombing radar of the B-29. For two years I lived in a tent
on Okinawa, keeping 50 or 60 B-29s running, returning home in 1952.

I was never shot at, to my knowledge, but a lot of my buddies were.

earle
S/Sgt, USAF
*

[J. J. Lodder]

Just blame the usual suspects,

Jan

[Paul J Gans]

Isn't it typical for there to be more support staff than guys
on the front line?

I've just finished the first volume of Rick Atkinson's story
of WWII in Europe. The first volume deals with North Africa.
He recounts the supply problems involved in the landings in
North Africa and later in support of the conquest of Algeria
and Tunisia. War Department supply gurus were still working
from WWI supply tables even though WWII guns fired of many times
as much ammunition. So of course for a while ammo was in short
supply.

And then there were the usual stories of tons of tent pegs
arriving, but no tents. And the tank brigade that arrived
but whose tanks went to England instead.

And of course by Korea there were even more bits and pieces
to supply and equipment to keep running. One of Atkinson's
points is that the side that won had the better supply and
maintenance people.

[Paul J Gans]

Aha! But they are already in custody from the last
conspiracy. We have a "usual suspects" shortage and
I predict that their price for performance will shortly
rise.

Could be a good investment opportunity.

:-)

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:24:15 +0200, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):

And arrest no one wearing the Legion d'Honneur!

[dav...@agent.com]

"jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>been born.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Achernar_%28AKA-53%29
[...]
The last week in May found Achernar in Plymouth, England.
On 1 June 1944, she was designated the 1st Army's HQ ship.
On 6 June, she steamed across the English Channel & anchored
in her preassigned position in Baie de la Seine, France.
For the next few days, she acted as a nerve center for troops
fighting for a foothold in France.
[...]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don01a.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don02a.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don04.JPG
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don13.JPG
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don14d.jpg

>My dad flew in a B-24 in the Philippines during WW2.
>And when I recounted the awful facts of just the first...four
>missions that occurred at the time of his deployment, my dad
>walking into this must have felt the chances of surviving
>so many missions would be about zero.
>
>

>...............................
>
>My Dad's First Month in Combat!
>
>General MacArthur, in keeping his famous promise, steadily
>advanced from one Pacific Island to another, so the 307th
>Bombardment Group, the Long Rangers "Jungle Air Force"
>moved along with him.
>
>His base at Wadke Island Aerodrome, just off the coast
>of New Guinea, was the last 'island hop' for his group
>before the big invasion of the Philippines.
>
>His unit, the 307th, was comprised of 4 Bomber Squadrons,
>of 8 planes each, the 370th, 371st, 372nd and his unit, the 424th.
>http://www.307bg.net/
>
>October 1944 was the most disastrous month in the entire history
>of the unit to this day. They serve as his introduction to the war,
>and what he would be facing during his ...42 total missions
>over the next 6 months. The following is from the original mission
>reports.
>
>
>OCT 3 Mission.
>
>The 370th, 371st, 372nd and 424th squadrons attacked
>the crucial Balakapapan oil fields. Source of 13% of the entire
>Japanese oil and gas supplies, considered the 'Ploesti' of the
>Japanese Empire, and one of the most vital targets of the
>entire Pacific war. And it was defended by the Japanese
>'fanatically' according to the group commander.
>
>370th Squadron mission results;
>
>"It is impossible to rate this mission as only one
>of our planes over the target returned to base."
>
>371st Squadron mission results.
>
>"Fifteen minutes before the bomb run, the squadron
>was attacked for an hour and a half by numerous relays of
>enemy fighters of 40-50 planes in each relay. Some enemy
>fighters flew above the formation and dropped several
>phosphorus bombs accurately.
>
>A/C #599 Lt Connell, pilot, was attacked by a Zeke
>from 2 o'clock high and was hit in the #1 engine which
>was seen to smoke and flame. Friendly submarine reported
>that it picked up 10 men of the 11-man crew.
>
>"A/C # 955 Lt Kates, pilot, was observed to receive
>a direct AA hit just prior to bombs away, and fire broke
>out at the left wing root. The plane fell off in flames and
>crashes, three men were seen to bail out.
>
>A/C # 568, Lt Kendall, pilot, was attacked by a Zeke over
>the target, and hit in #3 engine, the plane fell off to the left
>and was immediately attacked by 3 or 4 fighters. The plane
>caught fire, and 3 or 4 men were observed to parachute
>just before the plane exploded in the air.
>
>A/C # 565, Lt Wright, pilot, was attacked by enemy fighters
>and lost #2 engine, just prior to bombs away; the plane
>went into a steep right bank and crashed into the water.
>One chute was seen to open.
>
>A/C # 6t14, Lt. Rourie, pilot, had #3 engine on fire over
>the target, and appeared to have control damage from AA.
>Two parachutes were sighted a few minutes later in the
>water. A Jap seaplane was also observed to be circling
>this position.
>
>A/C #101 Lt Rider, pilot, was rammed in the right wing
>by an enemy fighter, during the bomb run, part of the
>right wing came off, and the Liberator turned on its back
>and went into a dive and crashed near the target, no
>chutes were seen.
>
>This Kamikaze attack was photographed and published
> by the AP nation wide.
>
>B-24 shot down "Over the Philippines"
>http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/307th-bg-liberator-going-down-over-philipines-31642.html
>
>Lt Wheeler's plane, a 20mm shell exploded in their
>cockpit, paralyzing the right leg and arm of the pilot
>and the co-pilot was bleeding so badly he became
>barely conscious. With one engine out and the help
>of the engineer, they managed to keep flying
>for the 6 hours it took to get back, and somehow
>landed safely. In the words of the group commander...
>
> "Some crews have it, some crews don't.
> This crew had it...in large quantities."
>
>"307th gunners shot down 23 aircraft."
>"On the Oct 3 raid, 21% of all personal that started out
>have not returned. 29% of the airplanes that day
>will never fly again. In all 12 planes were lost in
>combat, one crashed on take off, and 32 were
>damaged."
>
>In conclusion, the mission report reads...
>
>"Is is doubtful that a more dangerous, grueling and heart-breaking
>mission has ever been performed in any theater of war. This report
>can by no means adequately reflect the feast of individual heroism
>and bravery displayed, which are too numerous to mention."
>
>"Awards for September and October, 1944
>307th Bombardment Group;"
>
>Air Medals 123
>Oak Leaf Clusters 19
>Distinguished Flying Cross 1
>Purple Hearts 8
>
>Oct Unit Report
>http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/October44_Hist_Record-424bs.pdf
>
>......................................
>
>
>OCT 26 Mission:
>
>All 4 squadrons were sent out to search for enemy shipping.
>
>"Just as the 307th formation entered the Sulu Sea, a message
>was picked up from "Peggy 2" to intercept a unit of 6 vessels.
>26 miles East of the formation.The group leader spotted what
>he thought was a flotilla of heavy and light cruisers, so he barged
>right in. Major John Neely held course for a few minutes
>then "crossed the T" of the enemy task force.
>
>But it turned out to be a fleet of battleships. The Battleships
>Yamato, the largest ever built, the 'smaller' Nagato with
>her 16 inch guns, and the Battleships Kongo and Haruna
>along with several heavy cruisers. The bulk of the entire
>Japanese navy.
>
>Battleship Yamato
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGy5ApynvBw&feature=player_embedded
>
>Oct 26th mission results;
>
>"In as much as this is the first time heavy bombardment
>squadrons have taken under attack major units of the
>Jap battle fleet, it is thought of interest to record in detail
>and to diagram the actions of the two forces."
>
>"This bombing is rated as excellent. 28 Liberators, 7 each
>from the 370th, 371st, 372nd and 424th attacked the flotilla.
>AA Fire; Intense, heavy and accurate. It was of the barrage
>type and composed of different type bursts, being black,
>yellow, orange and gold, as well as white." Major Neely
>promptly began a loss of 500' of altitude and a turn to the
>left into his bombing run. This proved to be extremely
>effective. It is felt that the losses from AA might have been
>much heavier then they were."
>
>"The first sections of the group, consisting of the 370th and
>372nd took on the Konga Class Battleships, while the
>371st and 424nd attacked the Yamato two minutes later.
>The Yamato continued in a tight 360 degree turn while
>the Konga made a tight "S" turn."
>
>Lt Hicks was hit by flack just as the bomb run began.
>It struck midway between the bomb bay and tail, the
>plane began to smoke, a few seconds later the tail
>of the plane burst into flames and went into a spin.
>One man was seen to have jumped out but no
>parachute was seen to open.
>
>Lt Jones was hit over the target. However this plane
>was reported to drop its bombs on the target.
>It later burst into flames and was last seen falling
>into the sea enveloped in flames. No men were
>seen bailing out.
>
>Lt Sutphin received a burst of AA in the # 3
>engine during the bomb run. The pilot was able
>to keep the plane in flight for an hour and a half
>It was reported this aircraft lost its # 4 engine
>at this time. The plane went into a spin and crashed
>into the sea. Three men were seen to bail out of
>this plane. One man's chute became tangled with
>the disabled aircraft, a second became enmeshed
>in his chute, and the third man was dragged along
>for about 500 yards through the water until the chute
>collapsed.
>
>A total of 3 of 7 B-24's from the 424th were lost
>1 more crashed on take-off and 14 were damaged by
>AA fire."
>
>http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/26oct44_Diagram_Jap_Fleet.pdf
>
>Oct 26 Group report
>http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/27oct44_307_353D-Group.pdf
>
>
>On his 4th mission, on Nov 6, he shot down his first fighter!
>
>"Got one for sure" his log book reads.
>
>He was on the right waist gun and flying a formation
>of 6 B-24's at 12,500 feet in a modified box formation
>with 2 P-47 escorts. And 7 hours from base his squadron
>was attacked by 20 jap fighters.
>
>The Zeke came in from behind, between 5 and 7 o'clock level.
>After the burst, it started to smoke badly, banked right and
>went into a steep vertical dive. It was last seen going into
>the clouds at 4000 feet trailing thick black smoke. Because
>of the cloud cover, it was credited as a 'probable'.
>
>The enemy fighters made 15 or 20 more passes at his plane
>all from behind. The P-47 escorts shot down two of them
>
>Nov 6 Mission Report
>http://www.307bg.net/data/missionreports/1944/6nov44_307_357-372sq.pdf
>
>
>He still had 38 more missions, 367 hours of flight time
>and five more months left to go!
>
>
>Thanks for reading.
>
>
>s
>
>
>
>

[J. J. Lodder]

Is there any evidence that any were ever rounded up?

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

You can blame Rick for a lot, but certainly not for that,

Jan

[dav...@agent.com]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 03:45:09 -0400, dav...@agent.com wrote:

>"jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>>and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>>been born.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Achernar_%28AKA-53%29
>[...]
>The last week in May found Achernar in Plymouth, England.
>On 1 June 1944, she was designated the 1st Army's HQ ship.
>On 6 June, she steamed across the English Channel & anchored
>in her preassigned position in Baie de la Seine, France.
>For the next few days, she acted as a nerve center for troops
>fighting for a foothold in France.
>[...]
>
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don01a.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30377179/view/don02a.jpg

100-franc 1938 banknote with 28 written signatures (plus 2 printed
signatures, original to the banknote), including General Courtney
H. Hodges, his biographer--William C. Sylvan, the ship's Commander--
H.R. Stevens, and Oren Root Jr. (who later became advisor to Gov.
Nelson Rockefeller), dated June 4, 1944, USS Achernar (AKA-53).

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<3076b5a9-636f-4df9...@b2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
Kermit <free...@charter.net> wrote:

> I might at one time have had some trouble answering that in a
> satisfactory manner. But I can now unequivocatingly say that if we had
> a clear grasp of reality, we as a species would almost certainly have
> a better time than the one we're in for.
>
> Unsustainable processes put the lie to the old saying "What you don't
> know can't hurt you".

Not so sure about that, one wag proposes that it's our own ability to
have ego defenses including denial, that allows us to function in the
face of the knowledge that we are going to die, and this is a key
factor that separates us from the other contenders for sapience.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Bob Casanova]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:19:02 +0200, the following appeared

Different flick.

[Paul J Gans]

Of course not. Even in the film "Casablanca", the order
is given but we never see them rounded up.

[jonathan]

"Earle Jones" <earle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:earle.jones-A049...@news.giganews.com...

Small world eh? So you were with the "Very Heavy" 307th Wing then?
It was just "Heavy" with the B-24's. Is this flight jacket accurate?
http://www.307bg.net/History/307wing.asp


The 307th has a nice webpage.

307th Bombardment Group
http://www.307bg.net/

[Mitchell Coffey]

Sounds familiar, but I forget which one?

Mitchell

[Mitchell Coffey]

It's just a bureaucratic formality, for the files. No need to be
literal. Vichy appreciates the the desire to conserve resources in a
time of constrained budgets, just so long as they can show Berlin the
paperwork.

Mitchell

[Bob Casanova]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 04:59:17 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Mitchell Coffey
<mitchel...@gmail.com>:

I believe it was "The Assassination Bureau", but it could
have been the original "Casino Royale" spoof, the one with
David Niven.

[Nick Keighley]

On Jun 11, 12:18 am, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

> >> >John S. Wilkins <j...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
>
> >> >> Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
>
> >> >> > On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
> >> >> > in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
>

> >> >> > >In article <kp05nd$ld...@reader1.panix.com>,

> >> >> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:

> >> >> > >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_MnZ2dnUVZ_qCdn...@giganews.com>,

> >> >> > >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> >> >> > >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> >> >> > >> >> been born.
>
> >> >> > >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
>
> >> >> > >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
>
> >> >> > >Sophoclean.
>
> >> >> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
>
> >> >> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.
>
> >> >Yes, and Wittgenstein must be just another of those boring German beers,
>
> >> Not at all.  It is what you pour Wittgen beer into so that you
> >> can drink it.
> >Your mistake, he became so British that he drank tea.
> >For proof see:
> ><http://www.zazzle.fr/simplement_tasse_de_wittgenstein-16815432649636696
> >6>
>
> I love it!
>
> I especially love it because it is a French web page selling
> a cup on which the printing is in English.
>
> DeGaulle would have gone mad over it...   ;-)

a french company makes pint glasses for british pubs

[Nick Keighley]

On Jun 12, 4:09 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_MnZ2dnUVZ_qCdn...@giganews.com>,

" amateurs discuss strategy, professionals discuss logistics"

allegedly the supply problem is largely solved by AI like systems like
these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Analysis_and_Replanning_Tool

[Paul J Gans]

Nick Keighley <nick_keigh...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 11, 12:18?am, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
>> >> >John S. Wilkins <j...@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:37:56 -0400, the following appeared
>> >> >> > in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
>>
>> >> >> > >In article <kp05nd$ld...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> >> >> > > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > >> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_MnZ2dnUVZ_qCdn...@giganews.com>,
>> >> >> > >> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>> >> >> > >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>> >> >> > >> >> been born.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >Count no man happy until he is dead.
>>
>> >> >> > >> That's a little Grimm, isn't it?
>>
>> >> >> > >Sophoclean.
>>
>> >> >> > Sounds like a thought detergent...
>>
>> >> >> I thought Plato was a dishwashing liquid until I discovered Smirnof.
>>
>> >> >Yes, and Wittgenstein must be just another of those boring German beers,
>>

>> >> Not at all. ?It is what you pour Wittgen beer into so that you

>> >> can drink it.
>> >Your mistake, he became so British that he drank tea.
>> >For proof see:
>> ><http://www.zazzle.fr/simplement_tasse_de_wittgenstein-16815432649636696
>> >6>
>>
>> I love it!
>>
>> I especially love it because it is a French web page selling
>> a cup on which the printing is in English.
>>

>> DeGaulle would have gone mad over it... ? ;-)

>a french company makes pint glasses for british pubs

As I said, DeGaulle would have, etc., etc.

Besides, I thought the Brits had gone metric. Am I wrong?

[Paul J Gans]

Nick Keighley <nick_keigh...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 12, 4:09?pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >In article <rI6dnSjPgejpCC_MnZ2dnUVZ_qCdn...@giganews.com>,
>> > "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
>> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
>> >> been born.
>>
>> >> My dad flew in a B-24 in the Philippines during WW2.
>> >> And when I recounted the awful facts of just the first...four
>> >> missions that occurred at the time of his deployment, my dad
>> >> walking into this must have felt the chances of surviving
>> >> so many missions would be about zero.
>> >[...]
>> >*
>> >War is hell, Jonathan.
>> >As I recall, after WWII, the 307th returned to McChord AFB in Washington

>> >state. ?In June of 1950, the Korean war got underway. ?The 307th, now

>> >outfitted with B-29s, along with the 19th from Guam and one more bomb
>> >group, were transferred to Kadena, Okinawa -- the big B-29 base there.
>> >I arrived at Kadena about a month later and set up the AN/APQ-13 shop.

>> >This was the bombing radar of the B-29. ?For two years I lived in a tent

>> >on Okinawa, keeping 50 or 60 B-29s running, returning home in 1952.
>> >I was never shot at, to my knowledge, but a lot of my buddies were.
>> >earle
>> >S/Sgt, USAF
>> >*
>>
>> Isn't it typical for there to be more support staff than guys
>> on the front line?
>>
>> I've just finished the first volume of Rick Atkinson's story

>> of WWII in Europe. ?The first volume deals with North Africa.

>> He recounts the supply problems involved in the landings in
>> North Africa and later in support of the conquest of Algeria

>> and Tunisia. ?War Department supply gurus were still working

>> from WWI supply tables even though WWII guns fired of many times

>> as much ammunition. ?So of course for a while ammo was in short

>> supply.
>>
>> And then there were the usual stories of tons of tent pegs

>> arriving, but no tents. ?And the tank brigade that arrived

>> but whose tanks went to England instead.
>>
>> And of course by Korea there were even more bits and pieces

>> to supply and equipment to keep running. ?One of Atkinson's

>> points is that the side that won had the better supply and
>> maintenance people.

>" amateurs discuss strategy, professionals discuss logistics"

>allegedly the supply problem is largely solved by AI like systems like
>these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Analysis_and_Replanning_Tool

Yeah, and then the other guys sink the ship carrying all the
ammunition...

But thanks for the URL. It is very interesting. I guess that
the code is sophisticated enough that it can take into account
various contingencies.

[chris thompson]

On Jun 11, 8:50 am, chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com>

There was an interview with a German POW after the war, about how
they- the NAZI bastards- failed to hold a road: "The Americans sent a
tank through, and we destroyed it. They sent another tank, and we
destroyed it. And that happened over and over until we had no more
shells, and the American tanks just kept coming."

Chris

[Mitchell Coffey]

Which narrows the search terms: it was The Assassination Bureau. Thanks.

Mitchell

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<df3af42f-c09a-496b...@o10g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,

Ah, my father was in a unit that was going to hit Normandy and upset
about his chance for promotion, (He was promised rapid promotion, and
they used his success to promote the man over him.) decided to go Air
Force as an officer. Thus getting to the Air Force base on Tampa Bay
thus meeting my mother. (See: one a day in Tampa Bay.)

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:23:38 -0400, the following appeared

De nada. IMHO one of the better flicks of the past 50 years.
And Diana Rigg didn't hurt it... ;-)

[J. J. Lodder]

chris thompson <chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 11, 8:50 am, chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 5:04 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >On Jun 8, 12:11?am, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> On 06/08/2013 12:09 AM, Mitchell Coffey wrote:
> >
> > > >> > On Friday, June 7, 2013 10:22:11 PM UTC-4, jonathan wrote:
> > > >> >> A while back I looked up the war history of my dad
> > > >> >> and it made me realize just how lucky I am to have
> >
> > > >> >> been born.
> > > >> > [snip]
> > > >> >> Thanks for reading.
> >
> > > >> > The World owes your Father more than he can imagine. Thank him for me
> >

Someone was inventing cheap excuses.
You should keep a distinction in mind though
between the German Army and the Nazis.
Army officers often were not.

That's why Himmler felt he needed his own SS divisions.
Army and SS generally disliked or even hated each other,
and coordination between them was often poor.

> They sent another tank, and we
> destroyed it. And that happened over and over until we had no more
> shells, and the American tanks just kept coming."

It was a gross national product war.
That said, Americans were rarely that stupid.
Whenever they encountered enemy fire
they would flatten the area where it came from
(by artillery, planes, etc.) before trying again.

An exchange ratio of one tank/shell just wasn't acceptable,

Jan

[Tim Norfolk]

On Monday, June 17, 2013 4:54:11 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
<snip>

> You should keep a distinction in mind though
> between the German Army and the Nazis.
> Army officers often were not.
>
> That's why Himmler felt he needed his own SS divisions.
> Army and SS generally disliked or even hated each other,
> and coordination between them was often poor.

<snip>
> Jan

My grandfather and his brothers were from East Prussia, and were officers in WWI and WWII. They were decidedly not supporters of the Nazi party.

[Paul J Gans]

J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

Indeed. But the war as a whole was a close-run thing. If
Hitler had indeed driven England out of the war early on
things may well have been different.

Invading Europe alone with the Japanese undefeated would have
been very very difficult if not impossible. And mustering the
force to defeat the Japanese might also have been difficult.

What may well have happened is that the US and the Japanese
would reach a compromise leaving the western hemisphere to
the US and the rest of the world to the Axis. A long-term
stalemate might have resulted.

[jillery]

It's not fair, but it's the nature of things that the victors get to
write history, and the victors chose to paint all Germans with the
same brush. That Germany was involved in two major wars within a
generation of each other helped also.

[wiki trix]

It seems likely to me that many such people who were officers in WWII,
who claimed not to be supporters of the Nazi party only claimed that
due to the fact that the Nazis lost. If the Nazis won, those same
people would have had to have claimed the opposite. That's the way
things work.... obviously. I would never take such claims either way
at face value.

[jillery]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 16:31:43 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

Yes, it was a near-run thing, but only at the beginning. The Axis
powers took a huge gamble and their offensives caught everyone
insufficiently prepared. And had Chamberlain and his government
stayed in office, it's likely England would have sued for peace,
similar to Vichy France.

But the seeds of an Axis collapse were an inherent part of their
arrogance. Inevitably, they couldn't have hung onto their initial
military gains, and opposition within the conquered territories would
have had its effect.

I guess it depends on what you mean by long-term. After all, it took
about 70 years for the Soviet Union to collapse. If Hitler had his
way, it would have been much sooner.

[Paul J Gans]

Nah, the victors don't always get to write the history. The
Europeans were beaten up by the Vikings, but guess who got to
write the history.

And as we were just discussing, who won the US Civil War?

[Paul J Gans]

wiki trix <wiki...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's plenty of evidence that Tim is right.

[jillery]

>And as we were just discussing, who won the US Civil War?'


Hey, no fair going past the statute of limitations. Once all the vets
die off, its open season on history.

[wiki trix]

On Jun 17, 1:47 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

True... The Norsemen that invaded England 1066 were only fourth
generation in France... and they had already lost their Norwegian and
switched to French. I figure Rollo must have been rolling in his grave
over that. And the Vikings that went to rule over Kiev also switched
to Slavic language within about two generations, and even started
naming their descendants with horrible Slavic names. I have never
understood that tendency of the Vikings to blend in with the local
culture. Very different from the other invaders in history. ...

[wiki trix]

On Jun 17, 1:49 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

That may be, but I am not aware of any. Of course there were people
that actually were anti-Nazi at that time. But hard to distinguish
that after the fact. Today an example would be Chomsky. But must are
not outspoken until it is all over and done with.

[Tim Norfolk]

I would point out that 'anti-Nazi' is not what I said. Such things would likely get you killed. The best evidence that I have is inferential. My Mother told me enough stories of the time, which were self-consistent. I also never caught her lying about anything. Was it the 'Truth', or a well-established fiction after the fact?

[wiki trix]

Well, if the claims were true, I admire them. We could use more people
like that now.

[Paul J Gans]

True, but there are damned few WWII vets left. They are
all certainly over 80 and probably at least pushing 90.
So it won't be long now.

[Paul J Gans]

wiki trix <wiki...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 17, 1:47?pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 08:34:26 -0700 (PDT), Tim Norfolk
>> ><timsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>On Monday, June 17, 2013 4:54:11 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >><snip>
>> >>> You should keep a distinction in mind though
>> >>> between the German Army and the Nazis.
>> >>> Army officers often were not.
>>
>> >>> That's why Himmler felt he needed his own SS divisions.
>> >>> Army and SS generally disliked or even hated each other,
>> >>> and coordination between them was often poor.
>> >><snip>
>> >>> Jan
>>
>> >>My grandfather and his brothers were from East Prussia, and were officers in WWI and WWII. They were decidedly not supporters of the Nazi party.
>> >It's not fair, but it's the nature of things that the victors get to
>> >write history, and the victors chose to paint all Germans with the

>> >same brush. ?That Germany was involved in two major wars within a

>> >generation of each other helped also.
>>

>> Nah, the victors don't always get to write the history. ?The

>> Europeans were beaten up by the Vikings, but guess who got to
>> write the history.
>>
>> And as we were just discussing, who won the US Civil War?
>>
>> --

>> ? ?--- Paul J. Gans

>True... The Norsemen that invaded England 1066 were only fourth
>generation in France... and they had already lost their Norwegian and
>switched to French. I figure Rollo must have been rolling in his grave
>over that. And the Vikings that went to rule over Kiev also switched
>to Slavic language within about two generations, and even started
>naming their descendants with horrible Slavic names. I have never
>understood that tendency of the Vikings to blend in with the local
>culture. Very different from the other invaders in history. ...

Because they were not simple raiders. There are some modern
histories written from the Viking point of view. One gets a
very different story.

[Paul J Gans]

wiki trix <wiki...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think I need only mention the several officer's plots against
Hitler's life. Fans of Adolph would not have done that.

[Tim Norfolk]

Again, operating on my Mother's stories, the chief conspirator was a friend of the family.

[Barba]

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

[...]

>
> What may well have happened is that the US and the Japanese
> would reach a compromise leaving the western hemisphere to
> the US and the rest of the world to the Axis. A long-term
> stalemate might have resulted.
>

It has nothing to do with the rest, but I always had problems with the
expression "western hemisphere"; what is that exactly?

G

[jillery]

On 18 Jun 2013 09:17:44 GMT, Barba <snotana...@notmail.invalid>
wrote:

That phrase evolved during the time when Europeans thought they were
the center of the Universe. It is retained out of tradition.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kpni2t$l0o$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> Nah, the victors don't always get to write the history. The
> Europeans were beaten up by the Vikings, but guess who got to
> write the history.

Hmm, the Normans won England, and became the nobles and upper class so
they effectively wrote the history.

>
> And as we were just discussing, who won the US Civil War?

But the South won the peace and wrote the history. You can still make
a living writing historical romances from the Southern POV, and
alternate probability novels where the South won.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<cd800f30-3d1c-4c03...@ow4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

wiki trix <wiki...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> True... The Norsemen that invaded England 1066 were only fourth
> generation in France... and they had already lost their Norwegian and
> switched to French. I figure Rollo must have been rolling in his grave
> over that. And the Vikings that went to rule over Kiev also switched
> to Slavic language within about two generations, and even started
> naming their descendants with horrible Slavic names. I have never
> understood that tendency of the Vikings to blend in with the local
> culture. Very different from the other invaders in history. ...

Happens when the invaders are markedly culturally inferior to the
residents. The history of China has several cases where the invaders
adapted to the invades culture.

[wiki trix]

On Jun 18, 10:00 am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article

> <cd800f30-3d1c-4c03-892b-83a7a325d...@ow4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

>  wiki trix <wikit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > True... The Norsemen that invaded England 1066 were only fourth
> > generation in France... and they had already lost their Norwegian and
> > switched to French. I figure Rollo must have been rolling in his grave
> > over that. And the Vikings that went to rule over Kiev also switched
> > to Slavic language within about two generations, and even started
> > naming their descendants with horrible Slavic names. I have never
> > understood that tendency of the Vikings to blend in with the local
> > culture. Very different from the other invaders in history. ...
>
> Happens when the invaders are markedly culturally inferior to the
> residents. The history of China has several cases where the invaders
> adapted to the invades culture.

culturally inferior? what does that mean?

[Arkalen]

I expect it's all of the western (or negative) longitudes. Which is
defined with respect to the Greenwich meridian.
With allowances depending on the political context (like Capitalists vs
Communists, or white Europeans vs everything east of Turkey).

[Mark Isaak]

On 6/18/13 7:54 AM, Arkalen wrote:
> On 18/06/13 10:17, Barba wrote:
>> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>
>>> What may well have happened is that the US and the Japanese
>>> would reach a compromise leaving the western hemisphere to
>>> the US and the rest of the world to the Axis. A long-term
>>> stalemate might have resulted.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with the rest, but I always had problems with the
>> expression "western hemisphere"; what is that exactly?
>

> I expect it's all of the western (or negative) longitudes. Which is
> defined with respect to the Greenwich meridian.
> With allowances depending on the political context (like Capitalists vs
> Communists, or white Europeans vs everything east of Turkey).

I expect that, as most people use the term, it excludes western Europe
and Africa. Call it all of the western longitudes which are not in the
same time zone as Greenwich.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:29:17 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by wiki trix
<wiki...@gmail.com>:

>On Jun 17, 11:34�am, Tim Norfolk <timsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, June 17, 2013 4:54:11 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > You should keep a distinction in mind though
>> > between the German Army and the Nazis.
>> > Army officers often were not.
>>
>> > That's why Himmler felt he needed his own SS divisions.
>> > Army and SS generally disliked or even hated each other,
>> > and coordination between them was often poor.
>> <snip>
>> > Jan
>>
>> My grandfather and his brothers were from East Prussia, and were officers in WWI and WWII. They were decidedly not supporters of the Nazi party.
>
>It seems likely to me that many such people who were officers in WWII,
>who claimed not to be supporters of the Nazi party only claimed that
>due to the fact that the Nazis lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie

Note the second paragraph.

> If the Nazis won, those same
>people would have had to have claimed the opposite. That's the way
>things work.... obviously. I would never take such claims either way
>at face value.

Of course not, but such evidence as above strongly suggests
that the German General Staff was, shall we say, a bit
disillusioned with Der Fuehrer, assuming they ever suffered
such illusions.

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:35:28 -0700 (PDT), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by wiki trix
<wiki...@gmail.com>:

Culture is generally regarded as a continuum from least
civilized (the Jivaros are a good modern example) to most
civilized (currently, the Scandinavian countries and
Switzerland are my picks; historically the Chinese were
often considered such).

YMMV.

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message news:s871s891jd1tjuhih...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:35:28 -0700 (PDT), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by wiki trix
> <wiki...@gmail.com>:
>
> >On Jun 18, 10:00 am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> In article
> >> <cd800f30-3d1c-4c03-892b-83a7a325d...@ow4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
> >> wiki trix <wikit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > True... The Norsemen that invaded England 1066 were only fourth
> >> > generation in France... and they had already lost their Norwegian and
> >> > switched to French. I figure Rollo must have been rolling in his grave
> >> > over that. And the Vikings that went to rule over Kiev also switched
> >> > to Slavic language within about two generations, and even started
> >> > naming their descendants with horrible Slavic names. I have never
> >> > understood that tendency of the Vikings to blend in with the local
> >> > culture. Very different from the other invaders in history. ...
> >>
> >> Happens when the invaders are markedly culturally inferior to the
> >> residents. The history of China has several cases where the invaders
> >> adapted to the invades culture.
> >
> >culturally inferior? what does that mean?
>
> Culture is generally regarded as a continuum from least
> civilized (the Jivaros are a good modern example) to most
> civilized (currently, the Scandinavian countries and
> Switzerland are my picks; historically the Chinese were
> often considered such).
>

So what does "civilized" mean?

[chris thompson]

It means your take-out isn't as good as the country you invaded. Why
else would any sane person invade another country?

Chris

[J. J. Lodder]

Being victorious justifies being dumb?

Most Americans will no doubt object to a statement
that all Americans were racist pigs at the time.
But calling any German a Nazi swine is of course OK,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Do your arithmetic. Being 18 in 1945 put you in 1927.
It will probably be 2030 before the last one dies, [1]

Jan

[1] IIRC the last WW I veteran died last year.

[J. J. Lodder]

"The Dutch are the best Americans",

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

wiki trix <wiki...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 17, 11:34 am, Tim Norfolk <timsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, June 17, 2013 4:54:11 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > You should keep a distinction in mind though
> > > between the German Army and the Nazis.
> > > Army officers often were not.
> >
> > > That's why Himmler felt he needed his own SS divisions.
> > > Army and SS generally disliked or even hated each other,
> > > and coordination between them was often poor.
> > <snip>
> > > Jan
> >
> > My grandfather and his brothers were from East Prussia,
> > and were officers in WWI and WWII.
> > They were decidedly not supporters of the Nazi party.
>

> It seems likely to me that many such people who were officers in WWII,
> who claimed not to be supporters of the Nazi party only claimed that

> due to the fact that the Nazis lost. If the Nazis won, those same

> people would have had to have claimed the opposite. That's the way
> things work.... obviously. I would never take such claims either way
> at face value.

Just because you havn't any idea of what you are talking about.
A very prominent example was Erwin Rommel.
He was openly contemptuous of Nazi ideology,
and got away with it.
He habitually referd to 'Das Schwein'
in conversations with felllow officers.

What got him killed was getting associated with the attentat,
and even then they didn't dare to put him on trial.

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Then the family was lucky to survive.
The attentat triggered a wave of terror
in which many were killed rather indiscriminately,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Who stipulated that invaders should be sane?

Jan

[Mitchell Coffey]

A majority of the German General Staff were not part of Valkyrie, not to
mention a most officers. Much of the opposition at the general officer
level was based on the claim that Hitler was responsible for the fact
that Germany was losing the war, or a rather more pragmatic motivation,
based on the belief that were the Nazis out of the way, the Western
Allies could be brought to negotiate a separate peace, allowing Germany
to put the full of its resources against the Red Army.

While there had been to or three officers who'd attempted to killing
Hitler before, the July 20th plot was the first to obtain wide enough
support among the officer corps to allow a continuity-of-government
plan, rather than just offing the guy and hoping for the best. Note that
this was less than a year before the end of the war, and after the
Allies were securely lodged in Normandy, which probably explains why a
nearly-successful plot finally could be put together.

Mitchell

[James Beck]

There are several ending dates for WWII. The latest was the coming
into force of the Treaty of Japan April 28, 1952. At the time, 16 was
the youngest legal enlistment age, but several have turned up who
enlisted at ages younger than that (as young as 12). The last one will
probably die between 2036 and 2062.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <1l4nnz9.1xa...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,

nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

And a Confederate war widow just died a few years ago. She married him
for his pension when he was very old and she was young, but.

Wikipedia

Alberta Martin (December 4, 1906 – May 31, 2004) was once believed to
be the last living widow of a Confederate soldier. This has been
contradicted by Maudie Hopkins, but Mrs. Martin appears to have been
the last widow whose marriage to a Confederate soldier produced
offspring.

</wikipedia>