Ape interfertility
Mike Lyle
African apes pops up quite often, but is never answered. I know the
younger Leakey at least hinted that it would be possible. I guess most
people would, like me, be instinctively rather queasy about the idea of
an in vitro fertilization experiment, but it's so interesting that
surely somebody must have tried?
--
Mike.
r norman
Considering how unethical it would be to try, if anybody ever did try
such a thing there is nobody they could tell about it.
Although human and ape sperm is easy to obtain and few people have
scruples about collecting it, neither human nor ape eggs are easily
available. There are rather strict legal procedures you must go
through to collect either human or ape eggs and using them for any
purpose other than that claimed in the request puts you outside any
scientific consideration. And, of course, you never will get past the
human or animal studies review committee with this as your stated
goal.
Burkhard
1896 I think ... ;o)
el cid
Greg G.
wrote:
There's story about some researchers that wanted to do the experiment.
They thought it would be inappropriate for them to perform the act so
they asked the janitor if he would have sex with the female chimpanzee
for $300. He said he would but they would have to wait until payday
before he could come up with that much money.
Devils Advocaat
wrote:
I am no expert in this but as human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two
chromosomes in which one of the centromeres is no longer functional,
then one of the comparable chimp chromosomes would have nothing to
pair up with.
Now I did a bit of digging and found out about various chromosome
anomalies called "trisomies", the most well known of which is Down's
Syndrome (or trisomy 21).
The most common is trisomy 16, which always results in first trimester
miscarriages.
Other common trisomies, where a child will survive to birth, affect
chromosomes 18, 13, 12, 9, 8 and 22.
So I thought is there an occurrence of trisomy involving chromosome 2?
And there is, but it also contributes to a significant number of first
trimester miscarriages.
Therefore, and this is only a guess, if it were possible to fertilize
human eggs with chimp sperm, or vice versa, it is probable that this
would result in a partial trisomy 2, and most possibly would result in
miscarriage in the first trimester.
But as I said before, I am not an expert.
P.S. Methinks you would be more queasy about in vivo fertilization,
rather than in vitro, as the latter is usually done in a petri dish.
P.P.S. Finally, I would hazard a guess that when both centromeres on
the fused chromosome were still functional, interbreeding would carry
a greater likelihood of producing a viable (but not necessarily a
fertile) offspring.
Paul J Gans
I suspect in vitro experiments might not necessarily answer the question.
But perhaps more importantly, I suspect that it raises serious ethical
questions.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Burkhard
There is at the moment a big debate about the legal and ethical issues
of chimera research, so arguably, yes.
Mike Lyle
>> guess most people would, like me, be instinctively rather queasy
[...Valued explanation snipped, but thanks...]
>
> P.S. Methinks you would be more queasy about in vivo fertilization,
> rather than in vitro, as the latter is usually done in a petri dish.
Well, quite so. My education may not have left me with much knowledge of
biology, but I do know several Latin words beginning with "v" (or "u").
--
Mike.
All-Seeing-I
"Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin wanted to rebuild the Red Army, in the
mid-1920s, with Planet-of-the-Apes-style troops by crossing humans
with apes. This was according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper on
20 December 2005.
In 1926, the Politburo in Moscow passed this request to build a
�living war machine� on to the Academy of Sciences, who engaged Ivanov
and sent him to West Africa with many thousands of dollars to conduct
experiments in impregnating chimpanzees by artificial insemination. In
the USSR, a centre was set up in Georgia, Stalin�s birthplace, for the
�apes� to be raised.
Ivanov�s experiments in Africa were a total failure. Further
experiments in Georgia to use monkey sperm in human volunteers also
failed. Ivanov was now in disgrace. For his expensive failure, he was
sentenced to five years� jail, commuted to five years� exile in
Kazakhstan, where he died in 1932, aged 61
It turned out that there were no sexually mature chimpanzees in
Kindia, and so, in 1926, he obtained permission from French Guinea�s
colonial governor to work at the botanical gardens in Conakry. Here
Ivanov artificially inseminated three chimpanzees. All three failed to
become pregnant. He returned to the Soviet Union, where further
planned experiments also failed.
In 1930, Ivanov came under �political criticism� during the �Great
Purge� and was arrested. He was sentenced to five years� exile in Alma
Ata, Kazakh S.S.R. (now Almaty, Kazakhstan), where he worked for the
Kazakh Veterinary-Zoology Institute until his death from a stroke on
March 20, 1932. The famous psychologist and dog researcher, Ivan
Pavlov, wrote an obituary about him:
" Ivanov shared his master�s belief in evolution. If evolution were
true, humans and apes would be closely related. So the idea that they
could interbreed would not have seemed outlandish.11 In Africa, Ivanov
did not use his own sperm (or that of his son, who was with him),4 but
that of local natives.12 No doubt he believed the widely held
Darwinian racist view that Africans were closer to apes in their
ancestry than he, a Caucasian, was. But was he also ashamed to think
that any hybrid creature produced with his own sperm would be his
�child�"?
"From a biblical viewpoint, no such natural human-ape hybrid is
possible. God made man in the image of God, not in the image of an
ape. People have a spiritual dimension, involving our ability to
worship God. God does not, and will not, share His likeness with an
ape. Unlike our suggestion concerning Ivanov, God is not ashamed, but
pleased, to be our Father and to call us His �children�13�when we put
our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour from sin."
http://creation.com/stalins-ape-man-superwarriors
Dan Listermann
"All-Seeing-I" <allse...@usa.com> wrote in message
news:a2139c0a-5a78-40fe...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> "From a biblical viewpoint, no such natural human-ape hybrid is
> possible. God made man in the image of God, not in the image of an
> ape.
And yet again, you are wrong. Humans are a kind of ape and there is no
weaseling to get around it.
.
Kermit
> On Dec 27, 3:42 pm, Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Paul J Gans wrote:
> > > Mike Lyle <mike_lyle...@removethisyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> In this ng, the question of whether humans could interbreed with other
> > >> African apes pops up quite often, but is never answered. I know the
> > >> younger Leakey at least hinted that it would be possible. I guess most
> > >> people would, like me, be instinctively rather queasy about the idea of
> > >> an in vitro fertilization experiment, but it's so interesting that
> > >> surely somebody must have tried?
>
> > > I suspect in vitro experiments might not necessarily answer the question.
> > > But perhaps more importantly, I suspect that it raises serious ethical
> > > questions.
>
> > There is at the moment a big debate about the legal and ethical issues
> > of chimera research, so arguably, yes.
>
> "Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin wanted to rebuild the Red Army, in the
> mid-1920s, with Planet-of-the-Apes-style troops by crossing humans
> with apes. This was according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper on
> 20 December 2005.
>
> In 1926, the Politburo in Moscow passed this request to build a
> and sent him to West Africa with many thousands of dollars to conduct
> experiments in impregnating chimpanzees by artificial insemination. In
> apes to be raised.
>
> Ivanov s experiments in Africa were a total failure. Further
> experiments in Georgia to use monkey sperm in human volunteers also
> failed. Ivanov was now in disgrace. For his expensive failure, he was
> Kazakhstan, where he died in 1932, aged 61
Yes. However, Ivanov used limited numbers of chimps subjects. The
question isn't settled. There may soon be ways to determine whether
this is possible without actually testing it. Even the thought of in
vitro attempts make most of us queasy. Chemical-genetic simulations
may be possible in the near future.
You should note that genetic engineering makes all sorts of things
possible, in principle. We have already combined lightning bug with
tobacco genes, jellyfish with pigs and cats; some lab mice have
partially human immune systems.
>
> It turned out that there were no sexually mature chimpanzees in
> Kindia, and so, in 1926, he obtained permission from French Guinea s
> colonial governor to work at the botanical gardens in Conakry. Here
> Ivanov artificially inseminated three chimpanzees. All three failed to
> become pregnant. He returned to the Soviet Union, where further
> planned experiments also failed.
It would not be unusual to have three human females not impregnated by
a few dozen attempts.
>
> In 1930, Ivanov came under political criticism during the Great
> Purge and was arrested. He was sentenced to five years exile in Alma
> Ata, Kazakh S.S.R. (now Almaty, Kazakhstan), where he worked for the
> Kazakh Veterinary-Zoology Institute until his death from a stroke on
> March 20, 1932. The famous psychologist and dog researcher, Ivan
> Pavlov, wrote an obituary about him:
>
> " Ivanov shared his master s belief in evolution. If evolution were
> true, humans and apes would be closely related. So the idea that they
> could interbreed would not have seemed outlandish.11 In Africa, Ivanov
> did not use his own sperm (or that of his son, who was with him),4 but
> that of local natives.12 No doubt he believed the widely held
> Darwinian racist view that Africans were closer to apes in their
> ancestry than he, a Caucasian, was.
A prevailing Creationist idea was that Africans were marked by God to
be slaves. Another, less common idea, was that Africans were a
separate creation.
> But was he also ashamed to think
> that any hybrid creature produced with his own sperm would be his
> child "?
So he wasn't entirely sociopathic...
>
> "From a biblical viewpoint, no such natural human-ape hybrid is
> possible.
And my grandpa told me in 1957 that the bible said it was impossible
for men to walk on the moon. Of course, you think that was faked!
> God made man in the image of God, not in the image of an
> ape. People have a spiritual dimension, involving our ability to
> worship God. God does not, and will not, share His likeness with an
> ape.
Really? Linnaeaus thought the similarities were obvious. The bible
also says that posting striped poles in sight of cattle will induce
striped offspring. So much for biology.
> Unlike our suggestion concerning Ivanov, God is not ashamed, but
> pleased, to be our Father and to call us His children 13 when we put
> our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour from sin."
>
> http://creation.com/stalins-ape-man-superwarriors
As a child, I was taught that Jesus is God, and also that it was a
shame that slavery was banned in the US. Explain to me again:
1. Why the bible should be used as a biology text.
2. Why my grandpa was fallible, but you are not.
Kermit
r norman
There is rather a difference between expressing single genes from one
species in another, as in these examples, and in trying to produce a
hybrid between two species mixing 50% of the genome of each. The
jellyfish and lightning bug cases are to produce fluorescent or
bioluminescent proteins so you can easily see which cells have
expressed the genes you are interested in.
Ron O
> On Dec 27, 3:42 pm, Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Paul J Gans wrote:
> > > Mike Lyle <mike_lyle...@removethisyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> In this ng, the question of whether humans could interbreed with other
> > >> African apes pops up quite often, but is never answered. I know the
> > >> younger Leakey at least hinted that it would be possible. I guess most
> > >> people would, like me, be instinctively rather queasy about the idea of
> > >> an in vitro fertilization experiment, but it's so interesting that
> > >> surely somebody must have tried?
>
> > > I suspect in vitro experiments might not necessarily answer the question.
> > > But perhaps more importantly, I suspect that it raises serious ethical
> > > questions.
>
> > There is at the moment a big debate about the legal and ethical issues
> > of chimera research, so arguably, yes.
>
> "Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin wanted to rebuild the Red Army, in the
> mid-1920s, with Planet-of-the-Apes-style troops by crossing humans
> with apes. This was according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper on
> 20 December 2005.
>
> In 1926, the Politburo in Moscow passed this request to build a
> and sent him to West Africa with many thousands of dollars to conduct
> experiments in impregnating chimpanzees by artificial insemination. In
> apes to be raised.
>
> experiments in Georgia to use monkey sperm in human volunteers also
> failed. Ivanov was now in disgrace. For his expensive failure, he was
> Kazakhstan, where he died in 1932, aged 61
>
> It turned out that there were no sexually mature chimpanzees in
> colonial governor to work at the botanical gardens in Conakry. Here
> Ivanov artificially inseminated three chimpanzees. All three failed to
> become pregnant. He returned to the Soviet Union, where further
> planned experiments also failed.
>
> Ata, Kazakh S.S.R. (now Almaty, Kazakhstan), where he worked for the
> Kazakh Veterinary-Zoology Institute until his death from a stroke on
> March 20, 1932. The famous psychologist and dog researcher, Ivan
> Pavlov, wrote an obituary about him:
>
> true, humans and apes would be closely related. So the idea that they
> could interbreed would not have seemed outlandish.11 In Africa, Ivanov
> did not use his own sperm (or that of his son, who was with him),4 but
> that of local natives.12 No doubt he believed the widely held
> Darwinian racist view that Africans were closer to apes in their
> ancestry than he, a Caucasian, was. But was he also ashamed to think
> that any hybrid creature produced with his own sperm would be his
>
> "From a biblical viewpoint, no such natural human-ape hybrid is
> possible. God made man in the image of God, not in the image of an
> ape. People have a spiritual dimension, involving our ability to
> worship God. God does not, and will not, share His likeness with an
> ape. Unlike our suggestion concerning Ivanov, God is not ashamed, but
> our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour from sin."
>
> http://creation.com/stalins-ape-man-superwarriors
Not only are your arguments pretty useless, but you are misusing quote
marks. All the material is quoted, but you should more clearly
indicate where you end continuous quotes and where you cut and paste.
The most blatant example is the way you wrote about Pavlov as if the
following material in quotes was written by Pavlov. It was written by
your creationist source and is the opinion of that source. It is in a
different section of the article with a full paragraph between the
quoted material and the Pavlov statement. Your placement of a colon
instead of the period that is in the actual article indicates that you
purposely doctored this quote to make it look like Pavlov wrote the
material. This is even bogus by your lame standards.
Why can't you find any valid and honest anti-evolution arguments? Why
do you have to make the lame even more bogus by doctoring the material
to suit your own delusions?
Ron Okimoto
Kermit
I would never put a proposed time of arrival for such technology. Some
problems we started long ago (fusion, AI, Mars colonies) are still
expected eventually, but folks have learned that it can be
embarrassing to predict when. Simple concepts can encompass complex
and unexpected problems) The devil is in the details.
Would you agree that this might be a technically trivial exercise in,
say, 1000 years? (Assuming civilization hasn't collapsed.) Why would
we want a genetically enhanced transgenic super-soldier? See:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/MaxGuerera-DarkAngel.jpg
Kermit
r norman
As you say, it is usually embarrassing to predict what kind of
technology will happen even in fifty years, let alone 1000. But
creating transgenic super-soldiers seems like a foolish enterprise as
long as there seems to be no shortage of humans in many countries,
children often, capable of being forced into service as cannon fodder
and as long as "smart devices" keep getting smarter so that other
countries can have old men sitting around in lounge chairs pressing
buttons to kill the children-cannon-fodder some long distance away.
bpuharic
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
ever been to a singles' bar?
Dan Listermann
"bpuharic" <wf...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6l4kj5h29lo9jdgq8...@4ax.com...
"Closing time" you know. . . .
.
Devils Advocaat
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:33:56 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
>
> >In this ng, the question of whether humans could interbreed with other
> >African apes pops up quite often, but is never answered. I know the
> >younger Leakey at least hinted that it would be possible. I guess most
> >people would, like me, be instinctively rather queasy about the idea of
> >an in vitro fertilization experiment, but it's so interesting that
> >surely somebody must have tried?
>
> ever been to a singles' bar?
I am sure that would classify as the original "in vitro" fertilization
experiment. :P
Louann Miller
96c0-bda...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:
>> ever been to a singles' bar?
>
> I am sure that would classify as the original "in vitro" fertilization
> experiment. :P
>
In vitro veritas?
Kleuskes & Moos
> Devils Advocaat <mankyg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:17c74286-5b0a-4ab0-
> 96c0-bda3ab57f...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> ever been to a singles' bar?
>
> > I am sure that would classify as the original "in vitro" fertilization
> > experiment. :P
>
> In vitro veritas?
Ad fundum.