Time Magazine on PanSpermia

[Earle Jones]

*
Take a look at:

http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-life-t
o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly

to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to say
about panspermia.

To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.

earle
*

[Rolf]

"Earle Jones" <earle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:earle.jones-5FED...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu...

I agree.

The idea that at least some components of the history of evolution may have
their origin in outer space is of course quite plausible and AFAIK several
interesting observations have been made.

To introduce space travellers as an agent in the process of getting
evolution of life going on Earth seems quite far-fetched to me. It is just
building another 'turtles all the way down' fairytale. I can't for the life
of me understand why people are so enamoured by the idea.

> earle
> *
>

[Boikat]

On Oct 1, 4:19 pm, "Rolf" <rolf.aalb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Earle Jones" <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote in message

>
> news:earle.jones-5FED...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu...
>
> > *
> > Take a look at:
>

> >http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...

> > o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>
> > to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to say
> > about panspermia.
>
> > To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>
> I agree.
>
> The idea that at least some components of the history of evolution may have
> their origin in outer space is of course quite plausible and AFAIK several
> interesting observations have been made.
>
> To introduce space travellers as an agent in the process of getting
> evolution of life going on Earth seems quite far-fetched to me. It is just
> building another 'turtles all the way down' fairytale. I can't for the life
> of me understand why people are so enamoured by the idea.

Partly, because it would mean "we are not alone", and "If they can
travel between the stars, so can we... eventually".

Boikat

[Paul J Gans]

I think that the article is mistitled. It seems to be talking
about a mechanism for sending complex amino acids to earth from
another planet. That's hardly the same as sending "life".

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[Paul J Gans]

Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

But there is also paranoia. What if they come to us to pollute
our sacred body fluids or steal our women or beat us at baseball
or something horrible like that?

[jillery]

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:19:40 +0200, "Rolf" <rolf.a...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I agree with your opinion of directed panspermia, but how is the
panspermia as described in the Time article any less a case of
'turtles all the way down'? ISTM the only difference between them is
that the causal agent is unguided natural processes.

[jillery]

From the cited article:

"This kind of planetary tissue exchange long ago gave rise to the
concept of panspermia — the idea that life on Earth may not have
originated here at all, but rather was imported in the form of organic
building blocks or even microorganisms from far away."

and "far away" being defined as from another stellar system.

[Nick Keighley]

On Oct 1, 10:19 pm, "Rolf" <rolf.aalb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Earle Jones" <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote in message

>
> news:earle.jones-5FED...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu...
>
> > *
> > Take a look at:
>

> >http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...

> > o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>
> > to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to say
> > about panspermia.
>
> > To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>
> I agree.
>
> The idea that at least some components of the history of evolution may have
> their origin in outer space is of course quite plausible and AFAIK several
> interesting observations have been made.
>
> To introduce space travellers as an agent in the process of getting
> evolution of life going on Earth seems quite far-fetched to me. It is just
> building another 'turtles all the way down' fairytale. I can't for the life
> of me understand why people are so enamoured by the idea.

it's odd. And quite a common theme in science fiction. Regardless of
the illogic! For instance the new Alien prequel was firmly based on
the idea that humans were seeded here. Um so where did chimps come
from? Austrolpithicus? etc.

Larry Niven (normally pretty good on science) had human seeded here a
few million years ago.It was actually homo habilus that was seeded and
we evolved from them. An accident with a nuclear reactor made lots of
mutations occur which led to chimps and gorillas. So where did
monkeys, other mammals etc...

Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
vulcan!

[Nick Keighley]

On Oct 2, 3:44 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:11:37 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> >Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>*
> >>Take a look at:
>

> >>http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...

> >>o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>
> >>to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to say
> >>about panspermia.
>
> >>To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>
> >I think that the article is mistitled.  It seems to be talking
> >about a mechanism for sending complex amino acids to earth from
> >another planet.  That's hardly the same as sending "life".
>
> From the cited article:
>
> "This kind of planetary tissue exchange long ago gave rise to the
> concept of panspermia — the idea that life on Earth may not have
> originated here at all, but rather was imported in the form of organic
> building blocks or even microorganisms from far away."
>
> and "far away" being defined as from another stellar system.

how the hell do microbes cross INTERSTELLAR space. And how come their
DNA doesn't get scrambled by cosmic rays? And in what way is "far
away" a better place to evolve than the early earth?

[Boikat]

On Oct 2, 4:49 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Shielded inside comets or high water content asteroids, possibly.

> And in what way is "far
> away" a better place to evolve than the early earth?

I don't know if the phrase "a better place" is used.

Boikat

[Nick Keighley]

oh, I Occam razoring it. Why postulate microbes travelling across
interstellar space when it seem simpler to postulate abiogenesis on
earth.Panspermia has a kind of question begging to it. Why *would*
life evolve in "far away", panspermia is only needed if you think
earth abiogenesis is sufficiently unlikely.

I also wonder why instellar micobes in comet heads would be
particularly well adapted to the early earth.

Fred Hoyle's space born diseases really took the biscuit...

[jillery]

I can think of two reasons, neither of which I find convincing. 1.
"far away" also means "long ago", so there was more time for earlier
generation stellar systems to evolve life and spread to other systems,
and 2. Earth abiogenesis is so remote, the only other plausible
material mechanism is panspermia. ISTM science has just started
finding evidence for how life on Earth might have started, that it's
way to early to rule it out.

Either way, the distances between stars are just too vast to make
panspermia a like scenario. Even the cited article's solution doesn't
wash. If the stars are close enough to have a reasonable chance at a
panspermia, ISTM they would also be close to the same age.

>I also wonder why instellar micobes in comet heads would be
>particularly well adapted to the early earth.
>
>Fred Hoyle's space born diseases really took the biscuit...

It's possible that primitive life is intrinsically compatible with a
variety of habitats.

[jillery]

And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
are going to have breasts.

I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.

[Paul J Gans]

jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:11:37 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
><gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>>Earle Jones <earle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>*
>>>Take a look at:
>>
>>>http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-life-t
>>>o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>>
>>>to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to say
>>>about panspermia.
>>
>>>To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>>
>>I think that the article is mistitled. It seems to be talking
>>about a mechanism for sending complex amino acids to earth from
>>another planet. That's hardly the same as sending "life".


>From the cited article:

>"This kind of planetary tissue exchange long ago gave rise to the

>concept of panspermia ? the idea that life on Earth may not have

>originated here at all, but rather was imported in the form of organic
>building blocks or even microorganisms from far away."

>and "far away" being defined as from another stellar system.

Ok. I missed the "microorganisms" part. That has serious
difficulties.

[Paul J Gans]

jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 05:06:53 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
><nick_keigh...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The main thing life needs is an energy flow. There are a number
of sources of that, two excellent ones being sunlight and heat
from, say, hydrothermal vents.

[Glenn]

"Paul J Gans" <gan...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:k4fd7g$pls$1...@reader1.panix.com...

Do you have a lisp, or would we all fall off the earth?

[jillery]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:53:36 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

Yeppers. I suspect the writer used his poetic license to stretch
sketchy evidence from Martian meteorites.

[jillery]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:00:01 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

Or heat from gravitational squeezing on the moons of gas giants.

[Boikat]

On Oct 2, 7:09 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>

I'm not arguing that point, just pointing out how micro organisms
could survive for comparatively long periods of time, even if frozen
in a cometary body.

> Panspermia has a kind of question begging to it. Why *would*
> life evolve in "far away", panspermia is only needed if you think
> earth abiogenesis is sufficiently unlikely.

I don't see it as a prerequisite.

>
> I also wonder why instellar micobes in comet heads would be
> particularly well adapted to the early earth.

One of the, more or less, mainstream hypothesis of the origine of life
is that life could have staarted in cometary bodies in *this* solar
system. Wy would they have been "adapted to the early Earth
environment"? Same problem, actually.

>
> Fred Hoyle's space born diseases really took the biscuit...

Fred Hoyle "took the biscuit" on many things. :P

[Walter Bushell]

In article <k4fdjh$pls$3...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> The main thing life needs is an energy flow. There are a number
> of sources of that, two excellent ones being sunlight and heat
> from, say, hydrothermal vents.

And chemicals from hydrothermal vents.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[Paul J Gans]

No, I never mastered lisp, but I do ok at perl.

[Paul J Gans]

Yup. I'd like to have some of that material that can stretch
from Mars to Alpha Centauri (at least) without breaking... ;-)

[Paul J Gans]

Yup. My list was not meant to be exhaustive.

In fact, any definition of life should, I think be starting with
a non-equilibrium system with an energy flow through it.

[Paul J Gans]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <k4fdjh$pls$3...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>> The main thing life needs is an energy flow. There are a number
>> of sources of that, two excellent ones being sunlight and heat
>> from, say, hydrothermal vents.

>And chemicals from hydrothermal vents.

That too.

[jillery]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 00:49:24 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

I added to your list only to illustrate that such a list goes beyond
what was previous considered.

As you may know, there was a time when conventional wisdom said that
all life on Earth owed its existence to the Sun, and that the sea
floor was a featureless plain buried in billions of years of sediment.
So it was a thrilling if humbling experience when they discovered not
only oceanic spreading centers around the globe, but active geothermal
vents pumping millions of gallons of hot mineral-rich water from
underground. And that a unique ecosystem thrived around them,
independent of the surface. That increased the kinds of conditions
where life might have started on Earth and elsewhere in the Universe.

[Steven L.]

"We're fighting them on Sigma Draconis IV so we don't have to fight them
here at home"
-- President James Bush, 14 May 2153




--
Steven L.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <k4g1u0$kl5$4...@reader1.panix.com>,

Most wanted material, one strong enough for a beanstalk into space.

[Paul J Gans]

Absolutely.

One reason why I am so sour on discussions of the origins of life is
that we know so little about conditions back then. My educated guess
is that by 2100 we will have the required chemistry down pat and if
initial conditions are even sketchily known we'll be able to work
it out.

And of course, predictions such as mine above have a way of coming
true long before the sell-by date of 2100.

[Paul J Gans]

You've got THAT right!

[Paul J Gans]

That'd do it. As the earth turns, the beanstalk destroys Gooblah
space ships by smashing into them at 25,000 mph. As a result the
Gooblah declare war and spray our atmosphere with concentrated essence
of garlic.

And the fight was on!

[jillery]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 15:42:02 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

Of course, even if that happens, as is likely, there will be people to
say it's not proof that it actually happened that way.

[jillery]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 15:47:49 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

And that's why you don't see vampires anymore.

[Paul J Gans]

Of course. Imagine a politician, giving a public speech, being struck
dead by lightning. His followers would claim Satan did it.

[Paul J Gans]

See how the evidence mounts up?

[SkyEyes]

On Oct 1, 4:24 pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> But there is also paranoia.  What if they come to us to pollute
> our sacred body fluids or steal our women or beat us at baseball
> or something horrible like that?

Don't be silly, Paul. They've already come; they're here to have us
clean their litter boxes.

Silly human.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[SkyEyes]

On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley

> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
> >vulcan!
>
> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
> are going to have breasts.

Sometimes three of them.

>
> I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.

Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
abortion wouldn't be in question.

[jillery]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
>
>> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
>> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
>> >vulcan!
>>
>> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
>> are going to have breasts.
>
>Sometimes three of them.

The source for the phrase 'useless boob'.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <k4hmca$o4m$3...@reader1.panix.com>,

And few, if any, readers of this froup will be capable of
understanding the answer then. Perhaps a science historian may read
this in research for a paper.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<earle.jones-5FED...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu>,

Earle Jones <earle...@comcast.net> wrote:

> *
> Take a look at:
>
> http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-life-t
> o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>
> to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to say
> about panspermia.
>
> To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>

> earle
> *

Should panspermia be called panovaism. Single cells are always
referred to as female.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<73e3d965-08e3-4a46...@m5g2000pbv.googlegroups.com>,

SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
>
> > >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
> > >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
> > >vulcan!
> >
> > And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
> > are going to have breasts.
>
> Sometimes three of them.
> >
> > I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.
>
> Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
> abortion wouldn't be in question.
>

If it hasn't happened by now, it will soon. But not without a lot of
technological help and certainly not by accident.

"Remember to be careful around the house; most people are caused by
accident."

[Walter Bushell]

In article <papq68lb445elg336...@4ax.com>,

jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The source for the phrase 'useless boob'.

Paracetomoxyfrusebendroneomycin!
. . .

There are some minor side effects and some are not that rare,
Like nausea, vomiting and losing all your hair,
And heart attacks, becoming gay and growing extra breasts,
But it�s phewecking cheap, and hey, this is the NHS.

Beside the lady in the limerick would have a tit for Tat.

[Richard Norman]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:47:05 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

"Sperm" derives from the word for "seed" which is not a single cell.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<17090037-0b7e-4a75...@g18g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,

Nick Keighley <nick_keigh...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> how the hell do microbes cross INTERSTELLAR space. And how come their

> DNA doesn't get scrambled by cosmic rays? And in what way is "far

> away" a better place to evolve than the early earth?

The evolve into technological beings?

In "Allegro non Troppo" they hitch hike in a Coke bottle. Easy Peesy.

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by SkyEyes
<skye...@yahoo.com>:

>On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley

>> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
>> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
>> >vulcan!

>> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
>> are going to have breasts.

>Sometimes three of them.

Ever read "The Night He Cried", by Fritz Leiber? Ref:

http://www.iblist.com/book11761.htm

One of the funniest parodies (the Slickie Millane character
is great) I've read.

>> I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.

For variations on "human", read "Man of Steel, Woman of
Kleenex" by Larry Niven.

Yes, I tend to see SF plots and characters in quite a few
comments... ;-)

>Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
>abortion wouldn't be in question.

I've heard arguments both ways, mostly regarding either:

A population explosion, based on the conjecture that
enduring pain is "manly", or

Impending extinction resulting from zero pregnancies carried
to term.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."

- McNameless

[Bob Casanova]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 06:31:30 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>:

>On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Oct 2, 7:29�am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
>>
>>> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
>>> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
>>> >vulcan!
>>>
>>> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
>>> are going to have breasts.
>>
>>Sometimes three of them.
>
>
>The source for the phrase 'useless boob'.

....unless one has triplets...

>>> I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.
>>
>>Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
>>abortion wouldn't be in question.
>>
>>Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
>>skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
>>skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
>>

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message
news:7lmr689782h87ikfe...@4ax.com...

If we tilted the Earth a bit more that would make it easier for man to tie their
shoelaces, as well as having more opportunity to gawk at hooters unnoticed.

[Paul J Gans]

SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Oct 1, 4:24?pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>> But there is also paranoia. ?What if they come to us to pollute

>> our sacred body fluids or steal our women or beat us at baseball
>> or something horrible like that?

>Don't be silly, Paul. They've already come; they're here to have us
>clean their litter boxes.

>Silly human.

You are right!

[jillery]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 11:58:52 -0700, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 06:31:30 -0400, the following appeared
>in talk.origins, posted by jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Oct 2, 7:29�am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
>>>
>>>> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
>>>> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
>>>> >vulcan!
>>>>
>>>> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
>>>> are going to have breasts.
>>>
>>>Sometimes three of them.
>>
>>
>>The source for the phrase 'useless boob'.
>
>....unless one has triplets...

I am thinking of an old joke with the punchline "now where did I put
that useless boob?"

[Mike Dworetsky]

Nick Keighley wrote:
> On Oct 2, 3:44 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:11:37 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
>> <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>>> Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> *
>>>> Take a look at:
>>

>>>> http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...

>>>> o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>>
>>>> to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to
>>>> say about panspermia.
>>
>>>> To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>>

>>> I think that the article is mistitled. It seems to be talking
>>> about a mechanism for sending complex amino acids to earth from
>>> another planet. That's hardly the same as sending "life".
>>
>> From the cited article:
>>
>> "This kind of planetary tissue exchange long ago gave rise to the

>> concept of panspermia — the idea that life on Earth may not have

>> originated here at all, but rather was imported in the form of
>> organic building blocks or even microorganisms from far away."
>>
>> and "far away" being defined as from another stellar system.
>

> how the hell do microbes cross INTERSTELLAR space. And how come their
> DNA doesn't get scrambled by cosmic rays? And in what way is "far
> away" a better place to evolve than the early earth?

There are terrestrial microbes that can survive in high radiation
environments, so in principle a viable microbe crossing interstellar space
inside a rock is not impossible.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

[Paul J Gans]

Mike Dworetsky <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>Nick Keighley wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 3:44 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:11:37 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
>>> <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> *
>>>>> Take a look at:
>>>
>>>>> http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...
>>>>> o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>>>
>>>>> to see what the eminent scientific journal, Time Magazine, has to
>>>>> say about panspermia.
>>>
>>>>> To me, panspermia is plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>>>
>>>> I think that the article is mistitled. It seems to be talking
>>>> about a mechanism for sending complex amino acids to earth from
>>>> another planet. That's hardly the same as sending "life".
>>>
>>> From the cited article:
>>>
>>> "This kind of planetary tissue exchange long ago gave rise to the

>>> concept of panspermia ? the idea that life on Earth may not have

>>> originated here at all, but rather was imported in the form of
>>> organic building blocks or even microorganisms from far away."
>>>
>>> and "far away" being defined as from another stellar system.
>>
>> how the hell do microbes cross INTERSTELLAR space. And how come their
>> DNA doesn't get scrambled by cosmic rays? And in what way is "far
>> away" a better place to evolve than the early earth?

>There are terrestrial microbes that can survive in high radiation
>environments, so in principle a viable microbe crossing interstellar space
>inside a rock is not impossible.

I take your word for it, but I can't imagine how radiation energetic
enough to break chemical bonds can be stopped from breaking chemical
bonds by a microbe.

[Ernest Major]

In message <k4n49u$m3k$2...@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
<gan...@panix.com> writes

It can't. Actively metabolising Deinococcus tolerates shockingly high
levels of radiation by have multiple copies of its genome and efficient
DNA repair mechanisms. (I assume Rubrobacter does the same.)

The problem for panspermia is that this doesn't work for dormant
microorganisms - so you need to have organisms that can actively
metabolize both in the target environment and in the cold of deep space.
You also need an energy source. (Radiotrophic fungi apparently exist, so
using the DNA destroying radiation as a source of energy for DNA repair
isn't as outright ridiculous as one might think.)
--
alias Ernest Major

[Bob Casanova]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:32:47 -0400, the following appeared

in talk.origins, posted by jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>:

>On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 11:58:52 -0700, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 06:31:30 -0400, the following appeared
>>in talk.origins, posted by jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>>On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
>>>>
>>>>> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
>>>>> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
>>>>> >vulcan!
>>>>>
>>>>> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
>>>>> are going to have breasts.
>>>>
>>>>Sometimes three of them.
>>>
>>>
>>>The source for the phrase 'useless boob'.
>>
>>....unless one has triplets...

>I am thinking of an old joke with the punchline "now where did I put
>that useless boob?"

Missed that one; I also missed the opportunity to make a
comment regarding the possession by most men of two hands
and one mouth. ;-)

>>>>> I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.
>>>>
>>>>Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
>>>>abortion wouldn't be in question.
>>>>
>>>>Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
>>>>skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
>>>>skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
>>>>

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message

news:gi9u68lf3gpn7jkk9...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:32:47 -0400, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>:
>
> >On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 11:58:52 -0700, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 06:31:30 -0400, the following appeared
> >>in talk.origins, posted by jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>>On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@yahoo.com>
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
> >>>>
> >>>>> >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
> >>>>> >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
> >>>>> >vulcan!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
> >>>>> are going to have breasts.
> >>>>
> >>>>Sometimes three of them.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The source for the phrase 'useless boob'.
> >>
> >>....unless one has triplets...
>
> >I am thinking of an old joke with the punchline "now where did I put
> >that useless boob?"
>
> Missed that one; I also missed the opportunity to make a
> comment regarding the possession by most men of two hands
> and one mouth. ;-)
>

You're just asking for the frying pan.

[pnyikos]

On Oct 2, 5:14 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> On Oct 1, 10:19 pm, "Rolf" <rolf.aalb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > "Earle Jones" <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:earle.jones-5FED...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu...

>
> > > *
> > > Take a look at:
>
> > >http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...
> > > o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>

> > > to see what the eminent scientific journal,Time Magazine, has to say
> > > about panspermia.
>
> > > To me,panspermiais plausible; directed panspermia is not.
>
> > I agree.

I have no opinion on the panspermia discussed in the Time article. My
views on directed panspermia are known to some degree by most people
here, so I won't go into them in this post.

> > The idea that at least some components of the history of evolution may have
> > their origin in outer space is of course quite plausible and AFAIK several
> > interesting observations have been made.
>
> > To introduce space travellers as an agent in the process of getting
> > evolution of life going on Earth seems quite far-fetched to me. It is just
> > building another 'turtles all the way down' fairytale. I can't for the life
> > of me understand why people are so enamoured by the idea.
>

> it's odd. And quite a common theme in science fiction. Regardless of
> the illogic! For instance the new Alien prequel was firmly based on
> the idea that humans were seeded here. Um so where did chimps come
> from? Austrolpithicus? etc.
>
> Larry Niven (normally pretty good on science) had human seeded here a
> few million years ago.

A modest request: could you not use the word "seeded" for whole human
beings or even vertebrates?

I was going to expand the category, but hey, let's start with
something I hope you can easily agree on. It could eliminate a lot of
confusion.

I even used the spelling "panspermy" in 1996-2010, as part of
"directed panspermy," so people would be less likely to confuse it
with the panspermia of Arrhenius, Hoyle, and Wickramasinghe.


> It was actually homo habilus that was seeded and
> we evolved from them. An accident with a nuclear reactor made lots of
> mutations occur which led to chimps and gorillas.

John Harshman has agreed with me that it is not out of the question to
have these descended from *Ardipithecus* or even some species of
*Australopithecus*, but Homo habilis seems just a little too late and
a little too human for that.


> So where did
> monkeys, other mammals etc...

>
> Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
> source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
> vulcan!

Of course.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://www.math.sc.edu/~nyikos/
nyikos @ math.sc.edu

[pnyikos]

On Oct 3, 11:44 am, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 00:49:24 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
> ><gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>>On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:00:01 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
> >>><gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>>>>On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 05:06:53 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
> >>>>><nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>On Oct 2, 11:09?am, Boikat <boi...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> >>>>>>> On Oct 2, 4:49 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>

> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> > On Oct 2, 3:44 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> > > On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:11:37 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
>

> >>>>>>> > > <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> >>>>>>> > > >Earle Jones <earle.jo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> > > >>*
> >>>>>>> > > >>Take a look at:
>
> >>>>>>> > > >>http://science.time.com/2012/09/26/did-a-distant-solar-system-send-li...
> >>>>>>> > > >>o-earth/?xid=newsletter-weekly
>
> >>>>>>> > > >>to see what the eminent scientific journal,TimeMagazine, has to say
> >>>>>>> > > >>aboutpanspermia.
>

> >>>>>>> > > >>To me,panspermiais plausible; directedpanspermiais not.

>
> >>>>>>> > > >I think that the article is mistitled. It seems to be talking
> >>>>>>> > > >about a mechanism for sending complex amino acids to earth from
> >>>>>>> > > >another planet. That's hardly the same as sending "life".
>
> >>>>>>> > > From the cited article:
>
> >>>>>>> > > "This kind of planetary tissue exchange long ago gave rise to the

> >>>>>>> > > concept ofpanspermiathe idea that life on Earth may not have

> >>>>>>> > > originated here at all, but rather was imported in the form of organic
> >>>>>>> > > building blocks or even microorganisms from far away."
>
> >>>>>>> > > and "far away" being defined as from another stellar system.
>
> >>>>>>> > how the hell do microbes cross INTERSTELLAR space. And how come their
> >>>>>>> > DNA doesn't get scrambled by cosmic rays?
>

> >>>>>>> Shielded inside comets or high water content asteroids, possibly.
>

> >>>>>>> > And in what way is "far
> >>>>>>> > away" a better place to evolve than the early earth?
>

> >>>>>>> I don't know if the phrase "a better place" is used.
>
> >>>>>>oh, I Occam razoring it. Why postulate microbes travelling across
> >>>>>>interstellar space when it seem simpler to postulate abiogenesis on

> >>>>>>earth.Panspermiahas a kind of question begging to it. Why *would*
> >>>>>>life evolve in "far away",panspermiais only needed if you think

> >>>>>>earth abiogenesis is sufficiently unlikely.
>
> >>>>>I can think of two reasons, neither of which I find convincing.  1.

> >>>>>"far away" also means "long ago", so there was moretimefor earlier

> >>>>>generation stellar systems to evolve life and spread to other systems,
> >>>>>and 2. Earth abiogenesis is so remote, the only other plausible

> >>>>>material mechanism ispanspermia.  ISTM science has just started

> >>>>>finding evidence for how life on Earth might have started, that it's
> >>>>>way to early to rule it out.
>
> >>>>>Either way, the distances between stars are just too vast to make

> >>>>>panspermiaa like scenario.  Even the cited article's solution doesn't

> >>>>>wash.  If the stars are close enough to have a reasonable chance at a
> >>>>>panspermia, ISTM they would also be close to the same age.
>
> >>>>>>I also wonder why instellar micobes in comet heads would be
> >>>>>>particularly well adapted to the early earth.
>
> >>>>>>Fred Hoyle's space born diseases really took the biscuit...
>
> >>>>>It's possible that primitive life is intrinsically compatible with a
> >>>>>variety of habitats.
>
> >>>>The main thing life needs is an energy flow.  There are a number
> >>>>of sources of that, two excellent ones being sunlight and heat
> >>>>from, say, hydrothermal vents.
>
> >>>Or heat from gravitational squeezing on the moons of gas giants.
>
> >>Yup.  My list was not meant to be exhaustive.
>
> >>In fact, any definition of life should, I think be starting with
> >>a non-equilibrium system with an energy flow through it.
> >I added to your list only to illustrate that such a list goes beyond
> >what was previous considered.

> >As you may know, there was atimewhen conventional wisdom said that

> >all life on Earth owed its existence to the Sun, and that the sea
> >floor was a featureless plain buried in billions of years of sediment.
> >So it was a thrilling if humbling experience when they discovered not
> >only oceanic spreading centers around the globe, but active geothermal
> >vents pumping millions of gallons of hot mineral-rich water from
> >underground.  And that a unique ecosystem thrived around them,
> >independent of the surface.  That increased the kinds of conditions
> >where life might have started on Earth and elsewhere in the Universe.
>

> Absolutely.
>
> One reason why I am so sour on discussions of the origins of life is
> that we know so little about conditions back then.  My educated guess
> is that by 2100 we will have the required chemistry down pat and if
> initial conditions are even sketchily known we'll be able to work
> it out.
>
> And of course, predictions such as mine above have a way of coming
> true long before the sell-by date of 2100.

Or long after, like the predictions back in the 1950's that we would
by now have tourism on the moon, and rocket travel from America to
Africa in an hour or so.

Peter Nyikos

[Paul J Gans]

Thanks for that. That last is not a zero-sum game. Eventually,
and I'd think sooner rather than later, the energy ineficiencies
woul break the process. After all, we are talking about hundreds
if not thousands of years in a fairly bleak environment.

[Bob Casanova]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 11:58:11 -0700, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by "Glenn"
<glenns...@invalid.invalid>:

Ya think? ;-)

>> >>>>> I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
>> >>>>abortion wouldn't be in question.
>> >>>>
>

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message

news:5ep078la76bb4fe47...@4ax.com...

Hey, don't get me involved in this.

[Glenn]

"SkyEyes" <skye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:73e3d965-08e3-4a46...@m5g2000pbv.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 2, 7:29 am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley
>
> > >Star Trek we can interbreed with vulcans etc. because we have a common
> > >source. I should have more DNA in common with an ear of corn than a
> > >vulcan!
> >
> > And as long as young male humans watch science fiction, female aliens
> > are going to have breasts.
>
> Sometimes three of them.
> >
> > I do enjoy stories where human males become pregnant.
>
> Would that it could happen in real life. The morality of or access to
> abortion wouldn't be in question.
>

Maybe so, if males were provided with the right to choose. But that could happen
now, and perhaps end the question for females at the same time.