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VoiceOfReason  
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 More options May 16 2004, 11:19 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins, alt.talk.creationism, alt.bible
From: papa_fo...@hotmail.com (VoiceOfReason)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 15:19:25 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 11:19 am
Subject: Organizations Supporting Good Science
.
One might think that there should be several organizations "supporting
good science, the teaching of evolution, and opposition to teaching
any form of creationism in public schools."  Maybe even more than
several.  And one would be right to think so.

11 Civil liberties organizations
35 Educational organizations
17 Religious organizations
61 Scientific and scholarly organizations

My thanks to the Coalition for Excellence in Science and Math
Education for the following list.

....................................

Organizations supporting good science, the teaching of evolution, and
opposition to teaching any form of creationism in public schools.

Detailed statements from each group can be found at
http://www.natcenscied.org/article.asp?category=2

CIVIL LIBERTIES ORGANIZATIONS

African Americans For Humanism (AAH)
American Civil Liberties Union: Position Statement On Creationism And
Public Schools
American Humanist Association: A Statement Affirming Evolution As A
Principle Of Science
Americans For Religious Liberty
Americans United For Separation Of Church And State
Council For Democratic And Secular Humanism (CODESH)
Freedom From Religion Foundation
Humanist Association Of Canada
Institute For First Amendment Studies: The Case For Evolution
The National Committee For Publication Education And Religious Liberty
People For The American Way

EDUCATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

American Association Of Physics Teachers
American Association Of University Women
Arkansas Science Teachers Association
Association of College and University Biology Educators (1999)
Association Of Pennsylvania State College And University Biologists
Authors of Biology Texts (1999)
The BSCS Position On The Teaching Of Biology
The Biological Sciences Curriculum Study (1995): Position On The
Teaching Of Evolution For Voices For Evolution
California Science Teachers Association
Iowa Department Of Public Instruction
Iowa Council Of Science Supervisors
Michigan Science Teachers Association
National Association Of Biology Teachers (1980)
National Association Of Biology Teachers (2000)
National Association Of Biology Teachers: Scientific Integrity
National Association Of Biology Teachers: The Teaching Of Evolution
National Conference on Teaching Evolution (2000)
National Council For The Social Studies
National Education Association
National Science Supervisors Association
National Science Teachers Association (1973,1982)
National Science Teachers Association (1985)
National Science Teachers Association (1997)
New York State Science Supervisors Association
North Carolina Science Teachers Association
North Carolina Math and Science Education Network
Oklahoma Science Teachers Association
Science Museum Of Minnesota (1995)
Science Teachers Association Of New York State (1980)
Syracuse Parent-Teacher Association
University Of Alabama At Huntsville Faculty Senate
University Of California Academic Council Of The Academic Senate
The University Of Queensland (Australia) Board Of The Faculty Of
Science
Utah Science Teachers Association
Wisconsin Department Of Public Instruction

RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS

American Jewish Congress
American Scientific Affiliation
Center For Theology And The Natural Sciences
Central Conference Of American Rabbis
Episcopal Bishop Of Atlanta, Pastoral Letter
General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) (2002)
The General Convention Of The Episcopal Church
Lexington Alliance Of Religious Leaders
The Lutheran World Federation
Roman Catholic Church (1981)
Roman Catholic Church (1996)
Unitarian Universalist Association (1977)
Unitarian Universalist Association (1982)
United Church Board For Homeland Ministries
United Methodist Church
United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A. (1982)
United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A. (1983)

SCIENTIFIC AND SCHOLARLY ORGANIZATIONS

Academy Of Science Of The Royal Society Of Canada
Alabama Academy Of Science
American Anthropological Association
American Anthropological Association (2000)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (1923)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (1972)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (1982)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (Commission on
Science Education)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (2002)
American Association Of Physical Anthropologists
American Astronomical Society (2000)
American Geophysical Union
American Geophysical Union (1999)
American Institute Of Biological Sciences
American Astronomical Society
American Society Of Biological Chemists
American Chemical Society
American Geological Institute
American Psychological Association
American Physical Society
American Society Of Parasitologists
Association for Women Geoscientists (1998)
Australian Academy of Science
California Academy Of Sciences
Ecological Society of America (1999)
Genetics Society of America
Geological Society Of America
Geological Society of America (2001)
Geological Society of Australia (1995)
Georgia Academy Of Science (1980)
Georgia Academy Of Science (1982)
History of Science Society
Iowa Academy Of Science (1982)
Statement Of The Position Of The Iowa Academy Of Science On
Pseudoscience (1986)
Iowa Academy Of Science (2000)
Kentucky Academy Of Science
Kentucky Academy Of Science (1999)
Kentucky Paleontological Society Statement on the Teaching of
Evolution (1999)
Louisiana Academy Of Sciences
National Academy Of Sciences (1972)
National Academy Of Sciences (1984)
National Academy Of Sciences (1998)
North American Benthological Society (2001)
North Carolina Academy Of Science
North Carolina Academy Of Science (1997)
New Orleans Geological Society
New York Academy Of Sciences
Ohio Academy Of Science
Ohio Academy Of Science (2000)
Ohio Math and Science Coalition (2002)
Oklahoma Academy Of Sciences
The Paleontological Society
Sigma Xi, Louisiana State University Chapter, Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Society For Amateur Scientists
Society For Integrative and Comparative Biology (2001)
Society For The Study Of Evolution
Society Of Systematic Biologists (2001)
Society Of Vertebrate Paleontology (1986)
Society Of Vertebrate Paleontology (1994)
Southern Anthropological Society
Virginia Academy Of Science (1981)
West Virginia Academy Of Science

http://www.cesame-nm.org/announcement/organizations.html


 
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Harlequin  
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 More options May 16 2004, 11:51 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins, alt.talk.creationism, alt.bible
From: Harlequin <use...@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 15:51:29 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 11:51 am
Subject: Re: Organizations Supporting Good Science
papa_fo...@hotmail.com (VoiceOfReason) wrote in
news:6c4d0eab.0405160726.6009cd2f@posting.google.com:

> One might think that there should be several organizations "supporting
> good science, the teaching of evolution, and opposition to teaching
> any form of creationism in public schools."  Maybe even more than
> several.  And one would be right to think so.

> 11 Civil liberties organizations
> 35 Educational organizations
> 17 Religious organizations
> 61 Scientific and scholarly organizations

> My thanks to the Coalition for Excellence in Science and Math
> Education for the following list.

[snip]

Actually it is the good people of the National Center for Science
Education that are behind this.  They actually provide the text
of many of the statements these organizations have made as well
as making the lists you provided in your post at:

http://ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=2

--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"

"...I think that science would have never have achieved much
progress if it had always imagined unknown obstacles hidden
round every corner."
        - Arthur Eddington, _Stars and Atoms_, 1929, p. 20.


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Roman Catholic Documents offered by papa fox57 don't support his claim" by T Pagano
T Pagano  
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 More options May 16 2004, 12:49 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: T Pagano <not.va...@address.net>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:49:13 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 12:49 pm
Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Documents offered by papa fox57 don't support his claim
On Sun, 16 May 2004 15:19:25 +0000 (UTC), papa_fo...@hotmail.com

        Pagano replies:
Here papa fox57 (mis)leads his reader's to believe that the detailed
statements from each and every group supports:
1.  good science (whatever papa fox57 might mean by that)
2.   the teaching of evolution
3.  and opposition to teaching creationism in the public schools.
This is not the case.

Papa fox57 lists two documents from the Roman Catholic Church below
from 1981 and 1986.  Neither of these documents say anything about
supporting good science,  neither of them say anything about
supporting the "teaching" of evolution, and neither of them say
anything about opposition to creationism in the public schools.

Furthermore these documents are records of addresses which the Pope
gave to the members of Pontifical Academy of Sciences not to the Roman
Catholics of the world.  Academy members are advisors to the Pope and
chosen by the members themselves not by the Church.  Many of its
members are not even Catholic.

In the 1996 Address referenced by papa fox57's link, Pope John Paul II
endorses----in whole----Pope John XII Encyclical, "Humani Generis,"
which was critical of the misuse of scientific theories (treating
theories as known fact as neoDarwinism is) and critical of
evolutionism (polygenesis predicted by darwinism is contrary to
Catholic doctrine) and placed constaints on the "study" of evolution.

Finally paragraph 245 of the Second Edition of the Catechism of the
Catholic Church written for the members of the Church as doctrine and
promulgated under the same Pope John Paul II states,  "[Creation] is
not the product of any [material] necessity whatever, nor of blind
fate or chance."  The very opposite is taught in most schools.  That
is, Big Bangism and Evolutionism teach that law and chance are solely
responsible and no appeal to the Creator is necessary.  

Does the Catholic Church support the current method of teaching purely
naturalistic evolution, does she support science guided by Naturalism,
and is she against the teaching creationism?  Uneqivocally no.  And if
papa fox57 gets this so terribly wrong wonder how many of the other
organizations don't support what he claims.

Regards,
T Pagano


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Organizations Supporting Good Science" by Harlequin
Harlequin  
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 More options May 16 2004, 1:01 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins, alt.talk.creationism, alt.bible
From: Harlequin <use...@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:01:55 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 1:01 pm
Subject: Re: Organizations Supporting Good Science
Harlequin <use...@cox.net> wrote in
news:Xns94EB6F9DCE9Dusenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6:

My bad, VoiceOfReason did link to that URL.

--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"

"...I think that science would have never have achieved much
progress if it had always imagined unknown obstacles hidden
round every corner."
        - Arthur Eddington, _Stars and Atoms_, 1929, p. 20.


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Roman Catholic Documents offered by papa fox57 don't support his claim" by macaddicted
macaddicted  
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 More options May 16 2004, 5:33 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: macaddic...@REMOVETHIScomcast.com (macaddicted)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:33:21 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 5:33 pm
Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Documents offered by papa fox57 don't support his claim

Then lets try:

The Church is always interested in research concerning the knowledge of
the universe, whether physical, bilogical or psychological.

It is only through humble and assiduous study that it learns to
dissociate the essential of faith from scientific systems of a given
age, especially when a culturally influenced reading of the Bible seems
to be linked to an obligatory cosmology.

The age-old relationships between the Church and science have brought
Catholics to a more current understanding of the sphere of their faith,
to a sort of intellecutal purification and to a conviction that
scientific study deserves a commitment to unbiased research which is, in
the final analyisis, a service to truth and to humanity itself.

We would add that the Church recognises with gratitude all that it owes
to research and to science.

Pope John Paul II, 9 May 1983
Discourse to Scientists on the 350th Anniversary of the Publication of
Galileo's _Dialoghi_

> Furthermore these documents are records of addresses which the Pope
> gave to the members of Pontifical Academy of Sciences not to the Roman
> Catholics of the world.  Academy members are advisors to the Pope and
> chosen by the members themselves not by the Church.  Many of its
> members are not even Catholic.

Though the Academy chooses its members, they must be approved by the
Pope.

> In the 1996 Address referenced by papa fox57's link, Pope John Paul II
> endorses----in whole----Pope John XII Encyclical, "Humani Generis,"
> which was critical of the misuse of scientific theories (treating
> theories as known fact as neoDarwinism is) and critical of
> evolutionism (polygenesis predicted by darwinism is contrary to
> Catholic doctrine) and placed constaints on the "study" of evolution.

But does not forbid the research the study of evolution, from within
those constraints.

> Finally paragraph 245 of the Second Edition of the Catechism of the
> Catholic Church written for the members of the Church as doctrine and
> promulgated under the same Pope John Paul II states,  "[Creation] is
> not the product of any [material] necessity whatever, nor of blind
> fate or chance."  The very opposite is taught in most schools.  That
> is, Big Bangism and Evolutionism teach that law and chance are solely
> responsible and no appeal to the Creator is necessary.  

> Does the Catholic Church support the current method of teaching purely
> naturalistic evolution, does she support science guided by Naturalism,

A silly question. If it did then it would pretty much be saying it
wasn't needed. OTOH, it does state that scientific and revealed truth
flow from the same spring. (This is not to say that evolution, the
subject of this group, can be fully accepted as a scientific "truth.")

> and is she against the teaching creationism?  Uneqivocally no.  

It, along with the rest of us, waits for a scientific creationism.

And if

> papa fox57 gets this so terribly wrong wonder how many of the other
> organizations don't support what he claims.

This from someone who argues from a theological standpoint, but can't
seem to figure out how theology is done.

> Regards,
> T Pagano

See you next week.

[snip]
--
macaddicted
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Organizations Supporting Good Science" by Frank J
Frank J  
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 More options May 16 2004, 7:15 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins, alt.talk.creationism, alt.bible
From: f...@comcast.net (Frank J)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:15:07 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: Organizations Supporting Good Science

Specifically, via the publication "Voices for Evolution." I often post
this link to the "religious groups" section of VfE.

 http://tinyurl.com/cxfr

Interestingly, to my knowledge, not one of these groups has tried to
modify its statements in order to minimize the "misinterpretation"
that is often claimed by 3rd parties (e.g. commentators from the
fundamentalist right) who like to pretend that the groups don't really
accept evolution.


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Roman Catholic Documents offered by papa fox57 don't support his claim" by VoiceOfReason
VoiceOfReason  
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 More options May 16 2004, 10:20 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: papa_fo...@hotmail.com (VoiceOfReason)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 02:20:43 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, May 16 2004 10:20 pm
Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Documents offered by papa fox57 don't support his claim

I'm used to Pagano's posts having numerous errors, and once again he
lives down to his reputation.

> Papa fox57 lists two documents from the Roman Catholic Church below
> from 1981 and 1986.  Neither of these documents say anything about
> supporting good science,  neither of them say anything about
> supporting the "teaching" of evolution, and neither of them say
> anything about opposition to creationism in the public schools.

Well, about these and the rest of Pagano's claims, let see what some
of the actual text of the document has to say:

"In his Encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII had
already stated that there was no opposition between evolution and the
doctrine of the faith about man and his vocation..."

"Today, almost half a century after the publication of the Encyclical,
fresh knowledge has led to the recognition that evolution is more than
a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been
progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of
discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither
sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted
independently is in itself a significant argument in favour of this
theory."

There is also further discussion of the conditional support for
science and evolution.  To make a long story short, while the physical
body may be of this world, there must also be room for man's soul.
Since science does not delve into the spiritual, there is no conflict.
 There is further discussion of philosophy and theology, which is of
course irrelevant to science.

Is this sufficient for now Pagano?  Or would you care to make an ass
of yourself with the remaining 100+ organizations?

<snip>


 
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